Public Safety Committee - Regular Meeting

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Public Safety Committee to order, roll call please.

Vice Chair Coleman?

Here.

Johnson? Jost? Here. Kim? Here. Naker? Here. Yang? Here. Chair Boy? Here. Six present, one on their way.

being Councilmember Johnson. So good morning everyone. I just wanna say that this is the ninth Public Safety Committee meeting and next month will be our full year of the convenings for our public safety. I just wanna say, I appreciate everyone's participation, involvement, and engagement, not only in the topics, but just really just ways that St. Paul and our partners and our county has really been championing public safety. I just wanted to just re-explore what the goals are of this committee, because when we think about when this body was created, it was really dedicated to reviewing and developing and recommending policy, good policy that's informed not only by data, but also by lived experience and our experts. So we're going to be covering this month gun violence intervention. And we have two partners here, excuse me, one partner being from the St. Paul Police Department, and our other partner, our community organization that we've partnered with before, Moms Demand Action, the St. Paul location. And we're going to be reviewing areas of violence prevention, community-first public safety, and how our partnering organizations have been engaging around gun violence intervention. And we've heard a little bit of that last month with Sasha Cotton and Office of Neighborhood Safety. So I'm just going to, oh, actually, I'll turn it to Pierre to read into the record our first agenda item.

Item number one, SPPD non-fatal shooting unit review.

So welcome, we have Commander Nicole Peterson here, and she's going to be reviewing our non-fatal shooting unit.

Good morning, council president, council members. Thank you very much for having me here. I really appreciate it. As we said, my name is Nicole Peterson. I am a commander with our police department. And I've been with our department for, it's almost 24 years now, which is just crazy to think about. Currently, I'm assigned to our non-fatal shooting unit. I oversee that unit. And actually, I was tasked about two and a half years ago with creating the unit. So I've been with it. through the inception, figuring out what has worked best for our unit, and just overcoming any difficulties that we may have had along the way. So because of that, I'm able to give you a little bit of historical information about what the department looked like, how we investigated these crimes prior to the creation of our non-fatal shooting units. We started the unit in January 2024, and prior to that, these cases, they're aggravated assault cases where someone is actually struck by a bullet. These cases were investigated by our Homicide Robbery Unit. Our Homicide Robbery Unit falls underneath our Major Crimes Division, and all of our units within that Major Crimes Division is really cleverly named. So homicide robbery, you can probably figure out what they investigate. Our family violence unit, you can probably figure out non-fatal shooting, you can figure out what we investigate. The slight difference with homicide robbery is, yes, they're investigating homicide cases, they're investigating robberies, but there's a lot more that they're looking at. They're looking at kidnappings, they're looking at carjackings, any assault case from someone slapping another person, all the way up to previously these non-fatal shooting cases. So they were really tasked with really high priority cases that demanded a lot of attention. If it was a homicide, these investigators would respond within an hour to begin that investigation. That wasn't the case with these non-fatal shooting cases. They would get assigned the cases. the next morning, or if it happened on, let's say, a Friday, they wouldn't start looking at the case a lot of times until that following Monday. So there was information that was being lost, witnesses that maybe no longer wanted to be cooperative, same as the actual victims, that they no longer wanted to participate in the investigation. And because of that, these investigators had a very heavy workload because of all the cases that they were looking at. Um, so now why was the non-fatal shooting unit created? Um, a lot of the factors that I just mentioned, but I'm sure maybe you've heard chief Henry talk about conversations that he had with, um, our prior mayor Carter about, um, the clearance rate for our homicide unit. Um, with, with regards to homicides, they're usually in the upper eighties, 90% clearance rates. And, uh, just last year, they actually cleared a hundred percent of all homicides that happened within St. Paul. And Mayor Carter at the time asked Chief Henry, well, why are you able to do such a great job on clearing, you know, solving these homicide cases, but you're not doing as good of a job on solving the non-fatal shooting cases? And at the same time, County Attorney Choi was looking at a model in Denver of Denver PD, how they investigated their non-fatal shooting cases because their clearance rate had dramatically improved in recent years. So we began to investigate Denver's response to these cases and to see if we could apply it to St. Paul PD. We also wanted to increase public safety. Obviously, we know that maybe the person that was struck by a bullet is the victim of this crime, but our community members are also victims. If they're not feeling safe in their homes because gunfire is ringing out around them. That's not an environment that we want for our city. And then we believe that it's important to increase community trust by holding shooters accountable. and we wanted to match, or as close to matching, our homicide clearance rates to our non-fatal shooting clearance rates. So we began this partnership with Ramsey County Attorney's Office, and we began, like I said, looking at the Denver model and trying to apply it to St. Paul PD. I was able to fly out to Denver PD and actually meet with the investigators that were out there, and it was very doable, the model that they were creating. We were also granted money, which made their response a lot more... We were able to implement their response because what they were doing was responding real-time similar to a homicide investigation So when the shooting happened investigators were coming in within an hour Well that involves overtime and so this public safety money that we were granted by the state allowed us to respond real-time to these shootings and So we were granted $3 million over three years. And that three years is actually ending at the end of this year. So that money is running out at the end of this year. The unit itself is very different than our other investigative units. We only investigate cases where someone is actually physically struck by a bullet. And it does reduce our caseload within the unit. But what that really allows us to do is to dig into these cases and thoroughly investigate each one. We currently have a team of six sergeants and two officers that are assigned to the unit. And these investigators were pulled from other areas within the department, and those positions were not backfilled.

Oh, I'm sorry. Thank you. Oh, no. I just raised my hand. Thank you so much for this presentation. I'm really glad that we're doing this. I do have a couple of questions about the decision to require the victim rather than investigating cases where there's a near miss or a gun is fired but it doesn't strike somebody. Is that entirely a resource? based decision? And do we think that if we had adequate resources and could staff the unit adequately, that there would be increased value to public safety into achieving our other goals if we were to investigate those additional gunshots?

So they are still being investigated. I don't want you to think that they are not being thoroughly investigated. They are. Those cases where if someone is shooting at another person and they're not actually struck by a bullet, those cases are continuing to be investigated by our homicide unit. To have the type of response that we do is definitely resource-based because we don't have the overtime funding or the personnel to have someone on call to be able to respond to those type of cases. It just wouldn't be possible because of the other demands within the department.

And Commander Nicole, I have three council members, Kim, Ying, and then President Baker.

I just have a follow-up to that great question. Do you track the bullets that you collect from the homicide cases or from just shootings that happen in general? Do you collect the casings? Does it go somewhere into a database? And is that information shared across differing law enforcement jurisdictions.

Yes, absolutely. We do collect the casings. Any casing that is recovered goes to our forensic service unit where, depending upon the case, we swab for DNA. But every casing gets entered into what we call our NIBIN system. And that NIBIN, what it does is it looks at the casings and then it matches it to other casings from other cases that or other locations where casings have been recovered and other guns to see if they match up. And then that is able to bring correlations from other agencies throughout the state. If there was a shooting in Minneapolis and it was the same gun that shot those bullets, those casings, we are able to match that to our case. And then we potentially could have leads from that case. So yes, all casings are analyzed within our department.

Cousin Kim. Or excuse me, Yang. Sorry about that. Or Vice President Yang.

Thanks, Chair Bowie. I had some other questions to both of my colleagues. So thank you for letting us know that the cases where someone wasn't shot, those are still being investigated. I was wondering if you have the clearance rate for those sort of cases at all?

Yeah. For the non-fatal shooting cases?

The ones where, let's say, shots were fired, there wasn't anybody who was shot, though?

I do not have the clearance rate on those cases, but that's definitely information that we can get to at a later date, for sure.

Great, thank you. Last but not least, President Baker. Thanks so much, Chair Bowie. I'm curious about the close to $3 million over three years, $3 million a year. You mentioned that the staff were all pulled from other departments, units within the department, not backfilled. So can you line item out for us a little bit what the additional million dollar period went to? Absolutely.

um we uh utilizing it majority of it is for overtime within our unit but then we also get assistance from our special investigations unit from our gang gun unit so we really have a team approach within the major crimes division we still have even though we have investigators specifically for these cases We need assistance if we have to execute a search warrant. So it's not just our unit that's utilizing that overtime. It's many investigators within the Major Crimes Division to help us continue these investigations. And then our Forensic Service Unit, too, we've been calling them in to actually do the crime scene processing. So they've been utilizing the overtime money as well. We've been utilizing the money for different technological-based systems that, for example, cell phone tower information information for if we have a suspect that's been charged with one of these shootings, the ability to track their location. And then different software databases, we've utilized it to purchase that. And then we had a community engagement person as well, and we've utilized some of the funds for that individual.

Just a quick follow up. Thank you, Chair. So to be clear, is it these? 10 folks' job to be doing this investigation, and then the overtime is when they have to come in outside of their shifts. That's correct.

That's all hours of the night. Correct. The money is not used to pay their salary. It's strictly for the overtime.

Thank you. And as a follow up to that, I see the next slide here. You have the breakdown of just the unit. But I would love to see the breakdown of staffing and also the budget for that, for not only the overtime, but all the other units you mentioned, like the gang unit, the forensic unit, the cell tower. It would be interesting to know which unit actually tracks that. And also, you mentioned a software database. I just want to just note that on record. I would love to have a follow up in terms of not only just the non-fatal unit, non-fatal shooting unit, but also all the parties you mentioned.

Just so I can clarify and understand exactly what you're looking for. Are you looking for if, let's say, our gang gun unit utilized overtime money from this grant, how much money was being used for? Correct. OK. Perfect. Yeah.

OK. I think we're good now. So keep going. Thank you. Perfect.

Let's see. Yes. And I kind of briefly touched on this, but our investigators, if there is a shooting within the city where someone is struck by a bullet, they are called in and respond within one hour of that shooting. And what that really allows us to do is begin the investigative process, obviously, right away. So we unfortunately had a shooting within the city last night, and two of our team members were called in. They were gathering video from community members. They were from businesses. They were helping to troll, identify what evidence they need to further the case along. They met with the victim. They spoke with the victim. They're able to build that rapport with that victim right away to show that we care and we want to solve this case. So that, I believe, is one of the main reasons why this unit is important is because we are building trust with our victims. We're increasing community trust. We're speaking with witnesses and family members right there that night just to show that we are taking this extremely seriously and we want to solve what happened to you. And as it says there, we investigate each case as if it's a homicide. We've had cases where unfortunately someone was shot. It wasn't initially a homicide. homicide but eventually turned into a homicide so we really pride ourselves in doing these investigations from the start exactly as a homicide investigator would so that way there's if it ends up getting turned over to our homicide unit there's just a you know a very smooth transition to that unit and there's no bumps in the road and and they don't have to backtrack anything that we've done because we've taken care of all those initial steps so

Commander Nicole, I just have a quick question with the scenario that you gave and also just, you know, I appreciate you highlighting yesterday's incident, really tragic. I'm just really curious to know, there's a lot of response and it comes quickly and I think that's a great thing that our city has, but can you talk about, if someone was shot, most likely they'll be responding, the ambulance will be responding and taking them to the hospital. So when you talk about this response, is this happening in the hospital or is this happening at their house or over the scene of the incident? Can you just talk about what is the location in terms of this level of response?

Absolutely. 90% of the time we are meeting with them at the hospital. So if they're brought into surgery, obviously we wait until it's been approved by their physician to actually meet with them. But yes, we're going to the hospital and we're making contact with them and their family members there at the hospital. Thank you. So this is just a slide of the shooting victims within St. Paul prior to the start of the unit. So you can see during the COVID George Floyd time frame, we had a high in 2022 of 194 victims that were struck by gunfire within our city. 2023, just prior to the start of our unit, we had 122 victims. The first year, we had 107. And then last year, we ended the year with 73. Again, not a great number. We completely understand that. But since the start of the unit, the gunshot wound victims have decreased by 40%. And that's 40% less people that have been struck by gunfire in our city.

Absolutely. Commander Nicole, we have Council President Naker.

Thank you, Chair Bowie. I really appreciate having this data to look at, and I always want to celebrate success. And I think actually the next slide even more points to the success of the department in particular in this unit. But I note that the decline started prior to the inception of the non-fatal shooting unit. And cities across the country are seeing significant declines in violent crime, which is good news. I'm wondering, do we have any way of correlating the, or not correlating, but showing a causation between the inception of this unit and the decrease?

Yes. So prior to the start of our unit, Chief Henry made it one of his goals within coming into his chief role of focusing on gun violence. So I believe part of the start of that decline was our ASPIRE unit, was our Office of Neighborhood Safety, trying to build stronger relations within the community. But you are exactly right. We are, throughout the country, seeing a decline in violent crime. The statistics that we are seeing, it's lower than what nationwide they're seeing. We also have different studies that Denver PD has participated in. And I haven't quite seen those results yet. Just to show the correlation, based on the investigative type that they were doing previously to how they are investigating those cases now, seeing if there is actually a correlation, if they can draw that cause and effect. We don't have that data. We do look at the fact that it's lower than the rest of the country, so we feel as though us, along with our partners, have helped to attribute to those lower numbers, but no, we don't have specific data showing that.

Really great question, and we have another question or comment from Council Member Kim.

Yeah, a follow-up to that great question. Ray, I think it just illustrates that less people are getting struck by gunfire, and that's a great thing, as the council president said. I have one question on the data and a second question around correlation. The first one is, do you have this disaggregated by age?

I'm sorry, one more time.

Do you have the data disaggregated by age?

We do. We can absolutely get you that. I don't have it here with me today, but we can get you that.

Yeah, that would be a great follow up because prior to 2020, the council piloted was it COPP money, where we sent out an RFP for community organizations to come forward. Some were youth-focused. Some were like the community ambassador program. And I sort of wonder around the trends of impact that maybe we saw. after those programs were implemented. And then in addition, so I wonder about age, right? And if it's changing, are we getting better in some age groups than others, depending on the intervention? And the other question or thought that I had is this is, you know, maybe not a popular talking point, but we also have one of the best trauma centers in the state at Regions Hospital. And there are people that would walk into this hospital that potentially would not survive. And so I also kind of wonder around like, this is not like you don't actually need to pull the data, but I'm very curious around like the investments in that trauma center and how that also might correlate to this data, and how it also might correlate to how quickly our first responders get there, like our ALS units, which looks like exactly where you were going as well. So I sort of wonder around the context of this numbers in a, and I know this is what you came here today, so it's not to pick it apart, but it just makes me curious around the greater context of these numbers in terms of the multitude of services that feed into this information.

Absolutely. That's what I mean when I speak about our partners. For sure, our fire department paramedics that are responding and police officers as well, putting tourniquets on some of these victims and then getting them to regions. We comment all the time that had it not been for regions, we would have been having another homicide. So yes, 100%. Those definitely contribute to the fact that we don't have homicides, not the fact that they aren't struck by bullets, I guess, would be a way to look at that.

Yeah, we'll follow up. Council Member Johnson?

Thank you so much. I really appreciate, too, this presentation. We have had a few different shootings in my ward lately. And so I represent the East Side of St. Paul, Ward 7. I just wanted to also kind of carry on, I guess, to Councilmember Kim's question for a little bit further data of just also, I guess, where the gunshot wounds or victims are taking place, where the shootings are actually taking place, would be very helpful to also share. Because I know when we look at the numbers, I think it's also really important, too, to understand just where we may be seeing, not necessarily if there's a concentration area, and just how we are responding accordingly. And so just kind of curious if you have beyond the age, which is also going to be my question, because I think that gets into, too, if we're seeing a younger SKU and data of age, then it's like, well, what does the conversations look like with the school districts and looking like with the parks and rec staff and some other coordination that can happen there? But I think also if we're starting to see just areas, and especially over the last few years where there has been continuous maybe concentrations of hot spots in the city, how we are also responding to them as the numbers decrease. Because that's something that I see is just really important. And our clearance rate increases. When we look at the data there, I just would love to know, when we say St. Paul, where exactly we're starting to see that.

Yeah, we can definitely work to get that broken down for you as well.

Thank you.

Thank you, Council Member Johnson. I do want to share, I'm making a note as well, I know in our last meeting we had one of the recommendations that came from the National Network of Safe Cities with Sasha Cotton was to have weekly, if not monthly, shooting data, shots box data. And I think we might still have that. I know on a weekly basis we get emails, but I think it would be really great to integrate that into our committees to where we could just have it as just like an item so we can see not only race, age, and then also location as well.

So we can see if we can work on that. Absolutely. And then here is just the clearance rates for our non-fatal shootings, what it looked like prior to the start of our non-fatal shooting unit. We were usually sitting Anywhere from low 20s to upper 30% for clearance rate. And now we are two years in a row have been over 70%. I believe we're going to be closer to 75 by the time we currently have seven cases that are still open from 2025. But I think we're going to be closer to 75% by the time we get all those cases closed. And then I also wanted to highlight just the number of homicide victims that has gone down since the start of the unit. As you can see, it is trending down. The lower number of the two in the bar graph is gun-related homicides. And last year, we only had eight only. That's a horrible way to put that. Eight people that were unfortunately struck and died from a gunfire, but lower than our high at 30 in 2022. And again, that gun-related homicides have decreased 62% since the start of the unit.

Commander Nicole, I have a question from Councilman Jackson and also VP Yang. Thank you.

Thank you, Chair Bui. And Commander, just a quick question for you that popped in as you were kind of going through the numbers as well. Consistently throughout the years, I guess the last two years, has it always been at the same staffing level?

Yes, we have. We've been very fortunate that we've been able to maintain

six sergeants and two officers uh staffed within non-trail shooting unit okay i'm just one thing i just will note is um as i continue to see the positive um both coverage but also like reporting back with the numbers and the 71 data point for the last two years and just like the the overall work that you all are putting in. I just want to also celebrate that, but also uplift that as a testament to a very small unit when it comes to personnel, but the impact overall. And I just think that that's really a testament to where when you are able to prioritize certain things, you see the actual data quite literally double in a year and then sustain over time and continue to grow. I think that it would be really helpful, at least from our vantage point, too. And I'm overall really interested in hearing, too, the typical day of a sergeant in this unit. Because I think one of the things that we had, just I know for myself, I had a lot of time to talk to our local Eastside District police officers and folks that are out on the ground. We did a ride-along. But I don't necessarily feel like I've had a chance to really hear and see directly what a day in the life of a sergeant within the non-fatal shooting unit entails and what it all includes, especially surrounding the back end. What does it look like start to finish? And I just wanted to share my interest in that, especially as we head into the summer. And so just that's an open invitation, but definitely just something that I am intrigued with more so as someone who's learning, especially what our our approach here at the city is to something that is so important to my community. So just wanted to share that.

We can definitely arrange something to someone to speak with you. And that's not a problem at all.

And VP Yang. Thank you, Chair Bowie. I just wanted to take a moment to commend you all for your work. You all are, the unit is a small but mighty team. And I just wanted to share that for me personally, this is definitely the type of investment that we need to continue making in the city. I mean, you can clearly see in the results that the results, I mean, they really speak for itself. This is really impressive and just incredible. And so I want to say thank you. Like, this is life-saving work. And I'm curious. I'm seeing the progression here, which is really incredible. I'm wondering, when you compare it to the number of, let's say, overall gun violence cases or attempted homicide cases, what does that look like? Because part of me is wondering, OK, maybe we're seeing that. For example, we might be seeing more gun violence cases where the perpetrator, they're just not like they're trying to hit somebody for sure, but it's just not hitting whoever they're trying to aim at. And so I'm wondering if you can give us a bit of context to understand that piece too.

So you had mentioned attempted homicide, and I just want to touch on that, because those are actually investigated by our unit. So it really is up to the charging attorney. And we have such great partnerships with Ramsey County Attorney's Office. They are the reason why we are successful. It wouldn't matter if our investigation was super thorough. If they didn't want to charge those cases, we would be nowhere because the same people would still be running for you. cannot thank them enough for everything that they do. So the attempted homicide, it would depend upon how many times did the suspect shoot? How severe was the victim's injuries? It could be an attempted murder case, or it could be an assault case. With regards to your question about shooting at someone and not actually hitting, I kind of look at the way that we are investigating these cases, or I shouldn't say these cases, gun violence within the city. We're taking chunks out of it as we go. Homicide, obviously, that's always been a priority. Well, then we had the Aspire unit. And then we've morphed into our non-fatal shooting unit. And now the focus is going on our, we called our gun unit, where we know that shots have been fired within the city. We don't even have a victim because maybe they're just shooting up in the air. But that person that's shooting, you know, just shooting up in the air could be turning that gun on an individual next. So now... We won't have the exact same response that we have to the homicides and non-fatal shooting, but we are definitely more thoroughly investigating these cases, even when we don't have a victim, because we understand that maybe that person is not supposed to have a gun within the city. They're definitely not supposed to be shooting within the city. These are all crimes that need to be thoroughly investigated. If solved, it's going to take guns off the street. It's going to help our community members feel safer. So we're just taking chunks as we go and shifting our focus. Okay, now we're doing this really well. Let's see what can we do next. What's our next step in reducing gun violence?

Just a quick follow-up. Thanks, Chair Boyer. And just in general, I'm wondering, in terms of gun violence cases we're seeing in St. Paul, is it on the rise? Are we seeing a decrease in it?

So our shots fired is down. I think Alyssa would maybe know this a little bit better, but I think all matrix within gun violence is down within the city. So that is a win. Even the shots fired are down.

And along that question, I wanted to ask, particularly around if there's been a history with SBPD, particularly, I just remember when I was in my time serving in Minneapolis, there was these big gun buy programs, gun buyback programs. And I'm just curious to know if we've had those levels of initiatives. And also, what is our response for gun possessions? They're not crimes. There's like gun possessions or illegal gun possessions. Definitely.

No, there are people that within our cases that maybe they weren't a shooter, but they had a gun illegally. That's definitely someone that we are working to get charged investigating. And as far as the gun buyback program, I believe Ramsey County has had something like that in the past. I don't know how long ago that was, and I'm not familiar with a program like that within the city.

And one last question, too, because I see we have, well, actually, I'll let you do this last slide because it's connected to the partnership, so.

Yes, a lot of this I've already touched on, but just the one thing maybe I haven't is that previously these cases were investigated looking for victim cooperation, and we found that kind of similar to domestic violence, we don't get a lot of victim cooperation in these cases, so we're really basing our investigation on evidence, video evidence, just the NIBIN that we talked about earlier. And so we are able to build this case on a solid foundation rather than a victim that may cooperative one day and not cooperative another so we've that's been a switch in how we are looking at these cases but I think it's been a really good switch and I believe that Ramsey County has been on board with that as well based on how they are charging out these cases and then yes definitely want to highlight our partnerships I've mentioned Ramsey County Attorney's Office as far as their charging side, but then also Ramsey County Sheriff's Office. They have a victim program where they have funds available. If, let's say, we have a victim that maybe needs immediate housing, we've contacted Ramsey County Sheriff's Office. They've been able to help us with funding regarding that. And then, of course, Office of Neighborhood Safety. They continually are looking to assist individuals that either are struck by bullets, witnesses, and even individuals that are kind of on that border of maybe today they could be potentially in the life of gun violence, but then the next day they could end up being a victim. So those are important people that we need to reach out and try to help them. And then ultimately, our department is just really working cohesively for the mission of reducing gun violence. As I talked about within major crimes, we are all just jumping on board and helping out. And then also our patrol unit, just a great response from them. talk enough about it's because of the response and the investigation they did within those first couple minutes before our investigators got there that really helped us solve the case. It was just that one little piece that they were able to pick up. So we just are really proud of our police department and everything that's going on there.

Any questions at all? Thank you so much, Commander Nicole. We have two questions here from Council President Naker and then Council Member Joseph.

Well, thank you, Chair Bowie. I just want to echo my colleague's praise to you and the division. I think it is amazing how much just focused attention on something matters, bringing the same amount of attention we were bringing to homicides to non-fatal gunshot wounds. And that's the difference. And then I also appreciate you've said the word partner so many times in this presentation. And so it's so evident and I think noteworthy that you and Ramsey County are working so closely together using a model that worked in Denver. not reinventing the wheel. And sure enough, it's working here. I also want to note there's a partner in the House that we're going to hear from in a minute, Moms Demand Action, who has been so critical in helping us pass legislation related to things like safe storage. I think that's actually what led to the huge drop-off after 2024 was when that passed. And then you see the drop-off in gunshot wounds there. I just wanted to ask, in terms of going forward, the money you mentioned runs out this year. To share with you this earlier question about how much specifically does the program cost, especially in ongoing costs, now that you've purchased software, initial startup fees, things like that. How are you thinking about funding the program in the future?

Well, that I'm going to have to refer to our assistant chief, Ford. That's definitely something that we have been talking about, that this is not a program that we can stop. It would be remiss of us to stop doing this. So they are working on different ways that we can still get the response, still use the technology that we've been able to utilize to help really solve the cases that the evidence that we need, get that evidence. So I'm going to have to leave that question to Assistant Chief Ford.

Thank you. I have a follow-up to that, but also I don't want to forget about Council Member Joseph.

Thank you, Chair Bowie, Commander Peterson. I had a similar question. I'll start kind of with a comment. I really appreciate the presentation and the results from the non-fatal shooting unit, and then also really am committed to investing in this and also all of the partnerships and relationships and our partner departments that also contribute to the the results that we've been seeing over the last few years and so my question was similar to council president acres because i also recognize that we had three million dollars over three years and kind of what happens next Could you could you talk a little bit more about how the three million dollars has been spent if you can because it's also my understanding that the the Looks like there's ten ten employees that are part of this program and you said that Sometimes they use overtime when they get called to these these these occurrences in our city. So if you could talk about that a little bit more, just so we could understand the cost of this program. But it sounds like Assistant Chief Ford might have more information. And then my other question, are there other cities similar in size or maybe even not similar in size to St. Paul that have their own non-fatal shooting unit?

I'll start with that question first because I can answer that the fastest and easiest. Minneapolis is starting one up. I know that their response is a little different than ours because I don't think they have the staffing to do it in the same way that we do, but they are definitely trying. They've seen the results over here and they're like, we've got to try something. Denver, there are not a lot within the country. The big difference is I think between us and other agencies that are trying this, when we went out to Denver, they talked about how departments will kind of go partway in. Maybe they won't do the on-call piece where they respond to the shootings. But what Denver found is that if you go all in and you are going out to all of these shootings and you're meeting with all the victims and starting that investigation right away, that's where you really see the results. So I don't, while I think there are some non-fatal shooting units throughout the country, there are not a lot that have an on-call response like we do. I mean, maybe a handful. But on the flip side of that, I believe it's gaining momentum and people are seeing the results and they understand that that's something that they need to try. With regard to the money and the breakdown, we can get you a breakdown of how that money has been spent up until this time. That, I think, would answer your question better than I can do it off the top of my head, if you're comfortable with that. Thank you.

And I have a question from Chair Johnson.

Yeah, that data would be very helpful, Commander. I guess along the vein of just really talking about it, I think there's definitely an appetite on my behalf to see this program sustained. I think there are several things about the non-fatal shooting unit, but the most obviously important is that it seems to be working, from what I gather. One of the things that I would just ask is if you are aware of any sort of support that maybe you're getting from the grants team, or when it comes to just being able to kind of advocate for the sustained funding over time. I know that this was predominantly the money had come from the state, so are you seeing some appetite for continued investment at the state level? and or federal level or even just in the philanthropic sector like are you starting to receive solicitations or is there certain things that you've just kind of had your eye on especially just when I think about the investments that we're making and I think also just it seems sometimes that the St. Paul Police Department has at least on the council agenda, there are several times where we're applying or accepting funding. And I'm just wondering if there's any updates around just how you were seeking out more grant-related endeavors, too.

I believe the legislature, the state legislature, is looking at funding non-fatal shooting units. I don't know where that is in the process. I believe it went through, it passed through one level and it's working its way through the rest. Initially, that bill was proposed for departments that are struggling with their clearance rates. We don't qualify. But that being said, the person that proposed the bill also said he doesn't want to punish departments that are doing a good job but still need the funding to continue the work that they're doing. So I'm not sure if there was a revision written in that or where it's at in that process. Henry actually spoke to the legislature about our unit and the success that we've had and helps to just promote the success of it. So no, at this point, we have not really sought out any grants that I'm aware of. So no, at this point, we have not.

That's a really great question, Chair Johnson, and that was along the side, the questions I had, particularly around what's going on at the state level. I do know a couple weeks ago, there was this article about Representative Cedric Baker, excuse me, Cedric Fraser, different Cedric, was the chief author of the clearance grant, and I know that's the funding that the city of Minneapolis was looking to use. And understanding that we're on the last year of our public safety funds, or the public safety aid, which I believe was like, what, five or seven years ago? Or it was a while. It was 2023, but funding for 2024. OK. Yeah, so 2024, 2025, 26 is the funding for it. And I believe it must have been in the slide, but if not, but it was $3 million that was given to actually backfill this program. Now that we're coming towards the end of it, it is really important. I share the same response from all of my colleagues that I want to be committed to this. I want to ensure that we have enough funding for it. But I also want to just ensure that we're not just banking on overtime. And that has been a shared agreement amongst all of us in terms of what are ways that we can best manage and reduce overtime. Just because I think this is a unit that has a lot of success, and it gives the opportunity to also recruit. So I will be interested in the budget conversations to see if there is a plan to expand staffing so there isn't not only overuse of overtime, but also I think about burnout. I think about being a first responder and having to respond to non-fatal shootings, to shootings in general, and just how that just weighs on you, right? And I'm really just thinking about just the overall health and well-being of our of our responders and people who have to show up to the scene time and time again. So that's something we'll definitely make sure we can follow up on. I also will be following up with Office of Financial Services because I know Chief Henry, he did share with me a couple of days ago in preparation for this presentation that some of the financing is, you know, the breakdown in staffing and everything that's handled in that department. But I just truly, truly appreciate the eagerness to even come before us. I know we've been looking to have this presentation back in last year, and I'm happy that we have some great results even now and how we can support in the future. So thank you so much, Commander. Is there any other questions before we move on? Thank you so much, Commander.

I really also want to thank you for your interest. It speaks to just the level that you guys want to hear about how we're doing and the fact that it affects your constituents. It's just, I really appreciate it. So thank you.

Absolutely. So agenda item number two, and I think we have about 15 minutes for this last speaker. Do we have time?

It's 11.30.

OK, sorry about that. I'm thinking 11 in my head, but we have enough time for you. Yes, please don't feel rushed at all.

I've got Central Public Schools is out today, so I've got little boys at home that need me. So I'll keep us on a good cadence.

Oh, nice. And we are YouTube Live, so hopefully they're watching on YouTube.

They would have gotten very excited.

Unless you're limiting their YouTube time. Yes. That's what we're all trying to do. And not succeed.

They're civic lessons for today. Yes. Right. That's a future mayor if they're watching.

My boys are the same age, so Councilmember Just and I see each other a lot out and about. Oh. The police left, but I wanted to thank them for that presentation. The non-fatal injuries initiative gets a lot of attention in our sphere and is really a model. And so I wanted to just thank them for all that information and the hard work that they're doing.

And Kathleen, excuse me, right before you start, I just want to make sure Pierre gets a chance to read in the record so our OTC team can queue it up. Thank you.

Item number 2, SR 26-110, St. Paul Moms Demand Action, ERPO Overview, and Legislature Update.

All right. Wonderful. Thank you all so much for having me. Thank you, Chair Bowie. Thank you to all the council members. It's good to see so many familiar faces and be back in this familiar space. My name is Kathleen Anderson. I am a longtime lead with Moms Demand Action. St. Paul and the greater state of Minnesota. I'm also now the director of outreach and organizing for Protect Minnesota. So I'm like the nexus of a lot of work across the state. And I'm a social worker. So thank you so much. As a social worker, I've become a bit of a subject matter expert when it comes to firearm suicide prevention in particular, which is a huge issue around the country. It's a huge issue in our state. And I'm going to talk a little bit more about why. And so that's why I'm here today. That's why Gretchen asked me to do this presentation. When someone is in crisis and exhibiting these signs of suicidal ideation, prolonged sadness, changes in mood or behavior, hopelessness, sleep problems, withdrawing, isolation, aggression or agitation, increase in risk-taking behavior, increased alcohol or drug use, or talk of killing themselves or harming others. As a clinician, but also just as a person in this world, my number one concern is if they have access to a gun. And the reason is because guns are so uniquely lethal when they are used in suicide. When a firearm is used as a means to suicide, it is fatal 90% of the time. Other methods are fatal 3% to 8% of the time. And so when someone attempts suicide with a gun, there is little to no time for them to reconsider, to be interrupted, to be rendered medical aid. And that is why it is so fatal. And so when somebody has the opportunity to survive a suicide attempt, they have the opportunity to go on and recover. There's a really harmful myth out there that if somebody is really determined, they'll find a way. And that's just not borne out in the evidence and the data. The reality is that the majority of people who survive a suicide attempt do go on to recover, but they need that second chance. A firearm does not offer them that opportunity. So again, whenever someone is in or approaching crisis, that's my question, whether it's on a Facebook forum or in a clinical setting, is do they have easy access to a firearm?

And,

When we ask that question, it's because firearm suicide is really widespread. We are getting better at talking about suicide and talking about firearm suicide, but there is still a really strong taboo, especially in different communities. But more than 26,000 people die by gun suicide annually in the United States. That's nearly six in 10 deaths by firearm or suicide, so self-inflicted gunshot wounds. In Minnesota, that number is usually about seven out of 10. This last year, 2025, 77% of our gun deaths in Minnesota were firearm suicides. So a lot of the work that I do is talking about what gun violence looks like in Minnesota. It overwhelmingly looks like firearm suicides. Traditionally, that is older white men in greater Minnesota.

Hi, Megan.

but increasingly we are noticing the trends moving more into the city center, and we're noticing that youth, particularly black and brown youth, are at a higher risk of firearm suicide. So while it still disproportionately impacts older white males because they tend to be gun owners and have their discrepancies in their access to mental health services and stigma in talking about it, But we are noticing it increasingly affecting youth and increasingly affecting people in the cities. We already talked about how 90% of suicide attempts with a gun end in death. And 54% of all suicides in the US involve a gun. So the question becomes, what can we do? You all know Moms Demand Action is always banging the drum about practicing secure storage. So at the individual level, everybody that has a firearm in the home can practice secure storage to prevent accidental injury, discharge, children getting a hold of it, preventing gun theft, and then creating a barrier between an overwhelming urge and a fatal suicide attempt. We do suggest that if somebody in the home is experiencing not even quite a crisis, but way before we get to that point, we say if you're feeling what I call wobbly, if you have seasonal affective disorder and it's that season, if you're having a relapse, job loss, grief, those are times to consider changing the code or giving the keys away to another family member. If your symptoms are persisting, you might want to engage in out-of-home storage, where you might store your gun with a friend or family member at a storage unit, unloaded. Or we have temporary gun storage maps throughout the state Not a lot in St. Paul, because we don't have gun shops in St. Paul. But there are some in the suburbs. And then the final option, and again, the last and final step, is what I'm here to present the rest on. And those are our extreme risk protection orders. So this was legislation that was passed in 2023. And it has already had a tremendous success. I wish I had the data statewide off the top of my head. I think we've filed over 400 ERPO petitions since 2023. And so that's potentially 400 lives that have been saved, not to mention if there was threats against other people. The data is already really strong from the first two years of implementation. Basically, an extremist protection order is a court order that can temporarily remove a gun from someone's possession while they're in a crisis moment. And the idea is creating time and space for them to get the help that they need. So petitioners are law enforcement, city or county attorneys, and then immediate loved ones. So that's usually people that live in the household, parents, grandparents, children. And they can file a petition with the court for the guns to be temporarily removed. A great example of that. is right after annunciation up in Duluth, there was a man who was threatening to shoot up the school across the street. So he was arrested for making those threats. But again, he hasn't committed a crime. You can't charge somebody just with those threats. But they were able to file an emergency petition for the immediate removal of the guns from his home. And then so when he was released, he didn't have access to them, nor would he pass a background check to get more guns. those schoolchildren, those staff, those parents, that community was safe while this person hopefully got the help that he needed. An emergency order is going to be within two days, so again, demonstrating the urgency of this issue, up to 14 days where a court hearing has to be held. That final extreme risk protection order can last from six months to a year and can be renewed if the original petitioner deems it necessary. But you do have due process. You do go in front of a judge. You do still have access to your rights. Nothing goes on your criminal record. This is in civil court. But while you are in or approaching this period of crisis, you do not have access to a highly lethal means.

Director Hoeffling, I have a quick question about the story you gave. When you mentioned petition, was the petition put in place before the emergency order, or is now the emergency order substituting or replacing the petition?

Yeah. So usually, from what I remember of the paperwork, which you can easily find on OneThingYouCanDo.org under the state of Minnesota. The petitioner, in this case, I think it was law enforcement, and it often is law enforcement. They do the majority of petitions. It's like you check a box for an emergency order or the and the final order. Most people are checking both boxes because they want the guns removed as soon as possible, and then it is going to go to court for it to continue beyond 14 days. But the petition is that... that document that is sent in, in this case by law enforcement. Does that answer your question?

Thank you.

I have a lot of friends who actually handle the paperwork that are better at some of the nitty gritty. So yes, we talked about the real life scenario, deciding if you should take action. I do a lot of outreach. Gretchen always famously says that the It's a great policy. It's a great tool that we have in our toolkit. But it is only as good as the paper that it's written on if people don't know about it and don't know that it's an option. And so I do a lot of the outreach with just sharing with people. This is what suicidal crises can look like. This is what everyone should be doing. And these are the escalating steps you can take before it gets to this high risk situation. What makes it high risk are those imminent threats direct threats of harm against self or others, the number of weapons, and just somebody's grounding in reality. We kind of know the difference between somebody who's having a hard time and recognizes it and somebody that is very unaware that they are having a hard time and that they are a danger to themselves or others. So that would be a time when you would want to take the step to reduce their access to lethal means while they reground themselves and get the help that they need. So it's like awareness of the problem, willingness to do something about it. Again, there's like all of these steps that people can voluntarily take. If they won't voluntarily take those steps because of, you know, that lack of grasp of reality or their own threat to self, that would be a time to take matters into ERPA's hands. One thing I want to note too, especially because there's a lot of discussion about, we have to focus on mental illness, we have to talk about mental health. The majority of people who, A, we know that people that live with mental illness are disproportionately likely to be victims of gun violence as opposed to perpetrators. Over 50% of people who die by suicide did not have a diagnosable mental health condition. at the time of their death. And so it's just a much more nuanced conversation than just like, oh, someone has mental illness, and then therefore they shouldn't have a gun. That just doesn't really match reality. And there's no mental, there's no diagnostic requirement for an ERPO to be filed because there's not really a diagnostic requirement There isn't really a diagnostic code for rage and radicalization and isolation. It's a much more complex problem than the DSM captures. And so we talked a little bit about how it works with the emergency order and the hearing date within 14 days. And then at the hearing, the court decides whether they'll issue that final extreme risk protection order, again, based on the evidence. And during that time, not only do you not have access to your guns, but you're prohibited from purchasing for the duration of that order. And then we talked about how they can be renewed. And then once the order expires, the person will get their guns back and can legally buy and possess new ones unless they're prohibited from possessing for another reason.

You had a question? From Cosmo. Excuse me.

Oh, yeah, sorry.

Thanks, Sharon.

Thank you so much for being here today and for this presentation.

I have a question about when they're flagged on the background check if they were to try to purchase a gun during the period that the ERPA was in place. In those instances, is there any notification to law enforcement or anybody else that they've been attempting to purchase a gun during this period when at that point they know that they aren't legally permitted to?

That is a great question for my friend at the ATF. I think a lot of those, I think those are some of the concerns. It's just like with the lack of funding for the ATF and for local law enforcement and often dismissal of gun violence as a public health and a public safety problem that we can prevent, we don't always have those red flags in place. But in theory, they certainly cannot pass a background check. That doesn't mean that people will be notified by the attempt. But that is a really good question that I'd like to know, too. So I'll follow up.

And a couple questions from Council President Naker and then Council Member Joseph.

Thanks, Chair Bowie. Two questions. One of them just related to the temporary extreme risk protection order and the hearings. Are the hearings, you mentioned that the temporary extreme protection order lasts 14 days, and the person is notified of a hearing date within 14 days, is the hearing actually held within 14 days?

Yes, the hearing has to be held within 14 days. And that's part of the due process promise that was made when the law was passed.

And then during the hearing, I guess, on whom is the burden of proof lying? So if I am saying I'm feeling unsafe and the other person is saying. I don't know why she's feeling that. How, I guess, is it determined by the court that someone should have one of these? And on whom is the heavier burden of proof?

KATHLEEN SULLIVAN BROCKOVICH- Yeah. I have not sat in for one of those petitions. They're not public. Sorry. I have not sat in for one of the hearings. The petitions themselves are publicly available. The violence prevention project at Hamlin University has done a really great job tracking the data from the implementation. I know from the first year, it was something like, it was upwards of 80%, maybe even 90% of the emergency orders were approved, and something like 80% of the court hearings, like the final orders, were approved. And so it pointed to the fact that the cases that we're getting in front of judges were very, very strong, that there was a lot of evidence to back up the need for the temporary removal of this person's weapons. But I don't know... I'm not a legal expert, so in terms of the burden of proof, I'm not as equipped to answer that question. But Gretchen's going to help me remember all these great questions so that we can follow up. Because we're always learning, too. This is terrific.

I mean, just as a quick follow-up, I'm thinking about how to, because to your point, we want to spread the word about this tool. And I think one of the first questions, especially a family member, for example, might ask is, what kind of evidence do I need to be successful in a hearing like this?

No, and that's great. And that's one of the reasons that I brought these postcards. So we have these when we table throughout the state. You'll see us at Safe Summer Nights this summer. One thing you can do.org is... it's with that whole idea, is that it's heartbreaking to watch a loved one suffer and to be worried about them and what they're going to do. And the one thing you can do is reduce their access to this highly lethal means. And then it breaks it down by state, because different states have slightly different processes. They've got different paperwork, of course. They've also got different groups of people who can petition. And some states' medical professionals or social service providers can petition as well. And so in Minnesota, you have access to the court documents, FAQs in English and in Spanish. We need to work on that. And it walks you through all of the acceptable evidence and the things that you would need to have a strong case. Ramsey County has done a tremendous job of staffing the extremist protection order team. And I know Hennepin County has as well. And in fact, one of my peers is a social worker who works for the Hennepin County's Ergo office, helping people navigate this process. A lot of times, a family member will share the information, share their evidence with law enforcement, and have law enforcement kind of do it on their behalf as well and help them navigate that process. In an ideal world, not only would everybody know about this tool, but every county would have somebody helping with that process. But we're not there quite yet. It's very uneven throughout the state even, county by county, which counties are embracing this as a tool and which ones are not.

Council Member Gilson and Council Member Johnson.

Thanks, Chair Bowie. Kathleen, I had a similar question. I was trying to understand the process in the hearing and how does that work. But I think my other, and I was also going to ask how many of those 400 petitions were actually granted. It sounds like you said 80% to 90% or something.

Yeah, it's a significant number. I'd have to look back at last year's aggregated data.

But I guess what I would be interested in also understanding is, you know, I know it's like extreme risk. So to me that, you know, if we had a scale of the level of risk, you would have to be very obvious, it seems like. And so what I'd want to understand more is, like, what is the threshold, you know, in these hearings that, you know, judges are looking for where they would grant one? Because when we're talking about things like... mental health issues or other types of disorders, those can be fairly complex and sometimes I don't know how you could even prove those if they hadn't been diagnosed and then is that alone enough to support an extreme risk protection order? Just for example, I think there could be a lot of other factors that would support an extreme risk protection order, but where is that threshold when we're not kind of way on the far end of someone has obviously made a threat and we have proof of it, but we're maybe somewhere in the middle.

I think one of the biggest criteria is is that explicit threat of harm and the idea that you can back it up with a weapon, right? And so it's like somebody say, I don't want to say it out loud, but I'm going to kill myself, or I'm going to kill you. I know one example in Minneapolis was somebody, he had actually fired shots into the ceiling of his apartment and had longstanding issues with the neighbor above them. That was an example of something that was escalating, right? So they're looking for... explicit threats, escalation of behavior, spiraling of consciousness and just like tetheredness to reality. And then it's the lethal means to create carnage, right? And I think that that's just the piece is that It's wanting people to get help for the spiral that they're experiencing and this escalation that they're experiencing while creating safety for themselves and the community around them. There's much more we could do in terms of making sure that the people who are leaving that courtroom with their guns confiscated are getting the mental health resources that they need too. But that idea of creating a lot of time and space while that person gets the help that they need. And then I think there's a lot of great anecdotal stories that I can share in a follow-up, too.

And one more question I was thinking about. So basically, if you get an extreme risk protection order, it sounds like it lasts for six months or a year or a certain duration. And then once it ends, it sounds like it ends unless it's renewed. Yep. So are there guidelines or criteria for... things that this person is supposed to do in the meantime to be able to you know I mean it sounds like it'll just end no matter what unless it's renewed but how does that work because I guess the concern would be the extreme risk protection order ends that person hasn't done anything in the meantime to like you know be able to get the help that they need and now you know, we're kind of back in the same situation. What does that look like? Because it sounds like otherwise you're relying on that to get renewed by whoever petitioned for it in the first place.

Yeah, and I think some of that's going to depend on the court system in place and kind of, again, how much investment the county attorney has made in this process. I know that in Hennepin and Ramsey County, they're... staff members following these cases and alerting to when they're up for petitioning versus another state where it might just end. And they might just go to their licensed firearm dealer and say, my petition is over. I want my guns back. And so there's a lot of unevenness throughout the state But that would be a really good question for, is it Don Bax? Do I remember? Bax, yeah. Thank you.

Those are really great questions as well. I have a follow-up for it. I'll go to Chair Johnson.

Thank you. And just for my awareness as well, if we were looking to just get the data on the amounts of these vaccines petitions granted in Ramsey County, would we reach out to the attorney's office then for that data?

I'm a little hard of hearing. I'm sorry. Yeah.

So I just was wondering, if we wanted to know the numbers of just how many are issued here in Ramsey County, here within the city of St. Paul, would we get that from the county attorney's office?

Yeah. Don Baxter would have that, as well as Chris Tolbert, I think, is in the office as well. And then the Violence Prevention Project would have more statewide data, too, so you can kind of compare and contrast. And I can get some of that information to you as well.

Okay, and then I guess as a follow-up, especially with the previous presentation that I have in mind, I'm wondering if this is automatically something that is pursued in an instance where someone has also fired a firearm or hurt someone. Are they automatically put into this category, or is that something that it's like a separate petition process? Just wondering if you're coming before a court attorney for a... non-fatal shooting, and now you're a suspect in that case, which I would argue puts you at a risk of harming someone, but also prove that maybe you have. You're awaiting this period of time. Is that something that's automatically put in place, or does someone have to petition for you to be in that category?

Law enforcement or county attorney would have to petition for that next step and show this preponderance of evidence of escalating behavior and access to a lethal weapon, that would have been a very good question earlier. But I don't know that they automatically get put in that same bucket. But it is still a tool that is at law enforcement's disposal, for sure.

And just one final question, Chair. Thank you. I guess just for family members, too, and people who are maybe wondering about, OK, my loved one or my client for some reason has received this petition, and now I see that they're not able to walk around and purchase a gun, but I'm suspicious that they have a ghost gun with them or something that they've been able now to acquire during this petition time. What does that reporting process look like? What do you do in that situation where you're like, I'm pretty sure you have a petition that you are not able to have a gun. All your guns were confiscated, and somehow you now still are armed in some capability. What do I do then?

Well, and they're vulnerable themselves, too. So you think about that victim cooperation, and it's really hard. And that's one of the reasons that So often, my colleague in Hennepin County has law enforcement take the evidence and the data from the family and becomes the petitioner instead so that they can take some of that heat off of the family member. I mean, your option would be to report that to your county attorney and to report it to law enforcement. That's not always, that doesn't always feel like a safe option for people for very complicated reasons, but they would be in violation of their order and there would be legal consequences for that. Same as there would be for violating other civil orders of increasing magnitude.

Perfect. Well, I have a follow-up question to that. I think one of the things about having this presentation is all your questions get answered before. But I want to just say that I really appreciate this not only initiative, but I do think this level of response also allows for families to make that call. and allows for law enforcement to interact and provide safety in a non-criminal response. I think that's one of the highlights from this response versus the non-fatal shooting unit to where you give people the opportunity to make that time to have those rehabilitation services. And also, it's not punitive, but it doesn't have the same level of stigma. And I think especially being a family member, or a friend, or a neighbor, especially someone who's been impacted by gun violence, the biggest thing that we want is to ensure that our friend, our neighbor, our family member has help. And sometimes our justice department, our justice response doesn't allow for that. So if there's any other questions, I know you have a couple more slides to go. But I did want to ask, particularly around I understand that the legislation that passed allows for us to have this non-criminal response or the civil court's response. But I'm really curious around, is there direct funding or permanent funding that's coming from the state? Or is this all volunteer-based in terms of being the community outreach that you're providing?

Gretchen has the exact numbers that were attempted to be passed in the bill for an awareness campaign. It did not pass for the same reasons that the larger gun violence prevention bill did not pass. It passed in the House, but it never got brought to a vote in the House. And so we do not currently have additional funding for ERPA awareness. A lot of money was allocated from the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act under President Biden that lives with the Department of Public Safety. And so they are working on a general implementation and kind of maintaining, I don't want to call it a focus group, but they have a monthly meeting with different partners throughout the state working on ERPOs, both outreach implementation, the processing of them, identifying some of the questions that you all brought up in terms of potential pitfalls. And they had some suggestions. They called them cleanup provisions to the bill just to make it more effective. But none of that passed this last session. And so for right now, apart from the funding that the Department of Public Safety has for getting the word out, it is based on volunteer efforts from the Gun Violence Prevention Coalition. So it's one of our biggest priorities, especially after annunciation. No one can prove that, but that would have been an ideal situation. We know that in instances of mass shootings, It is always telegraphed ahead of time. There are always red flags. People are talking about their intents, and people are watching that downward spiral and often know that there is access to weapons, but somebody who saw the red signs did not know about ERPOs or did not feel like they could access them, and that could have averted such a tragedy. So that's what we're trying to prevent every day. Thank you.

Thanks, Chair. Kathleen, you just made me think of another question. And I don't think the ERPOs would apply to this. But what if you have a situation where there's someone that is in crisis? And maybe they don't own a gun, but they have access to a gun in their household that is registered to someone else.

Usually people think about it with youth and adults.

Yeah, so then it would be on whoever that gun owner is to make sure that they're safely storing, because this only applies to a person and their own guns. Is that correct? Yeah.

And there are cases where parents have been... It's like the petitioners and then... I'm trying to think of what the name is for the... Respondent. But that is pretty rare, and people try to avoid that for obvious reasons as much as possible. The goal would be, for example, if school counseling identifies that there's a 16-year-old that's in or approaching crisis and has made explicit threats, that they're involving the parents and the parents are voluntarily reducing access. If they, again, are unwilling to, an ERPO order against the parents could be indicated. OK.

And I have another question as well. You had mentioned that on the website that they can either file a petition or reach out to law enforcement. Have you seen any response that's coming through 911 calls? Because I imagine if someone maybe in the immediate of the moment, is calling 911 and maybe dispatching a law enforcement to make this type of extreme risk protection order, but may not want to actually support an arrest. I'm just wondering if there's been any trainings with the dispatch.

That would be a really good question for my friend that works in Hennepin County, because I'm sure she would get a lot of those. I feel like people would mostly be referred to the attorney's office to file it. I don't think that there is, I'm not familiar with the relationship between ERPOs and emergency services. But that is a really good question.

Yeah. And I just ask this because I would assume the attorney's office probably is like a nine to five bank hours. What about the weekends? And if someone wants to file this petition or if they want to get immediate help and get this on the radar, if there's a correlation or a collaboration between our emergency services. I know here in St. Paul, we work with Ramsey County as our dispatch, and then Hennepin County, also with Minneapolis. So that's good to know.

I know that was one of the cleanup, and it was also for DV compliance, because that's a related process for restraining orders and having guns confiscated. In some... counties you have a judge who will respond to everything within 24 hours and in other counties you don't and so again there's just inconsistencies throughout the throughout the state but just making sure that people have have access to that removal within 48 hours because it is an emergency and in a true emergency 48 hours feels like way too long and so it's still not perfect yeah

Perfect.

Well, I also just wanted to ask, well, I wanted to say I appreciate Gretchen from Moms Demand Action. You're here with us. Gretchen had a chance to make it to one of my office hours and had shared not only in inviting all of us to share this in our newsletters and our social medias, but also invite you to hear and give a broader presentation, but before we close out, is there anything that you need from us in terms of to help amplify and get the word out? Like how can we best support as council members to make sure we get this resource out to our community?

Great question. I think just proactive sharing about one thing you can do or extremist protection orders, sharing about secure storage devices being available through Ramsey County Attorney's Office and Department of Public Safety. The Ramsey County, Don Choi's got gun lock distribution at several libraries and community centers throughout Ramsey County. So just emphasizing secure storage, why that matters. And if there's ever a timely opportunity to just remind people of these tools. We talk a lot with St. Paul Public Schools about the number one thing that families can do to prevent guns on school campus is practice secure storage in the home. And even as early as this last fall, when I reminded administration about that, they were like, well, we're seeing a lot guns that are coming because they were stolen from cars. And I'm like, OK, we're so close. Guns are not being stored securely in cars, and they're being stolen from cars, and then they're making it to school campus. So whether you have children in the home or not, you need to be practicing secure storage in your homes and your vehicles to prevent gun theft and then guns from entering the circulation amongst people that should not have them, namely youth or people that are prohibited from having them or are in crisis.

Wonderful. And I have a question from President Naker.

Thanks, Truby. I just wanted to follow up on that to say, in the case of secure storage, that's not just a recommendation. That's the law in St. Paul, thanks to government action. Thank you for reminding us of that. You were saying it, but I just wanted to double down. And honestly, nothing makes me, well, things make me prouder. But it makes me really proud to drive into Victory Parking Ramp every morning and see that sign that says, And that was also Moms Demand Action's idea, that it's not enough just to pass an ordinance, because if people drive into St. Paul from somewhere else and don't know that that's the ordinance and they already have their gun, well, then they're in a bad place. So to have the signage that clearly lets people know that you can't just leave your gun unsecured in your car, to your point, we are trying to get farther and farther and farther upstream of this issue every act that we pass. So just kudos to you.

Thank you. And then Chair Johnson.

Yes, thank you, Chair, and thank you, Kathleen, for being here today as well, and I echo the same kind of sentiments as the Council President. You know, I was sitting here, and I'm listening, and I'm going through the presentation, and one of the things that I just recognize as well is that the work of Moms Demand Action, especially here in St. Paul, but all across the state, you know, really has put us on the brink of some monumental changes to our to gun reform in ways that I think we were really actually on the brink, especially at the statewide level with some disappointing pieces this legislation, but this legislature process and this session, I think though the continued advocacy, the hours spent, the time spent, the advocacy, that has been received right this is um i think has been consistent over the years but definitely especially over the last few have just been really intentional and i and i hope that there's progress within the team just i know sometimes when you're fighting the good fight it can be very tiring to do so and also just in general like we know that the work that you all are doing it translates to saving more and more lives each year I do think that we are, I think to the piece of just some of the bipartisanship nature of the slides that you've even shared, that's a very hard thing to accomplish right now in a very polarized legislature, but also time in our history politically. And so I think I just want to offer A couple of words of affirmation when it comes to just like, I truly do think that we are on the brink of something intentional. And we have to move through a couple more members in the House and in the Senate. But I definitely think through at the local level, too. You've gotten the ears of many mayors, many city council members across the regions, across the state. in ways that I don't think I've seen before because individuals that are working within Moms Demand Action are regular everyday people who just really care about the safety of our community, the safety of our kids, and the safety of our families. And so I hope that there are wins despite some of these things. And when you hear from the non-fatal shooting unit and some of the investments that are even made with the amount of work and investment cities are making, at least here in St. Paul, to try and mitigate that and to respond to both non-fatal and fatal shootings that are happening in our city, that those are results truly because of the work that you all do. And so just want to say thank you while I can, while you're in front of us here, but also for being even able to share this with our office so we could share this out and just reminding people that they too play a role in how safe our communities are with something just as simple as how you're storing your gun at home. That educational piece is really important, or even in your cars when you're going somewhere. And I think that we don't necessarily always think about the small things we can do every day to prevent the large, tragic things that our communities have endured for decades. So thank you.

Oh, thank you. Yeah, that's one of my favorite parts We talk about how we work in gun violence prevention education and advocacy. It's both parts. And we've been getting a lot of condolences over the last week and a half. And I'm like, we built so much power over this last year. I'm not feeling disappointed, and I'm determined. We're going to keep going. But I always need affirmation, so thank you.

And then we have Councilmember Kim.

Yeah, I appreciate that, because the comprehensive common sense gun laws made it through the Senate, one chamber but not the other. And so if folks are interested in door knocking this summer, I'll be out knocking doors. It's less of a reflection of the content, but just to add to the appreciation, thank you so much for being here. I think there's also maybe some melancholic poeticism, but today is Melissa Hortman's birthday. So it's very poignant that we're having these topics to come to the council today. So happy birthday, Melissa. Happy birthday.

Absolutely. Thank you so much for highlighting that. Because when we think about the championship was at the house and just even this really difficult session, And it was, I mean, it was really just, you know, I would say just disappointing that, you know, the business of saving lives and, you know, for people who like decided to sign up and become policy makers, when we think about how we're actually benefiting, improving lives and saving lives, that should never be a partisan issue. It should never be a partisan issue. It should never be a rural versus metro issue. Everyone has a loved one that's worth protecting. So I just want to say, Thank you so much for the work that you've been doing. I have been at a series of panels, not only hosted by Moms Demand Action, but the Coalition of Protect Minnesota has built over the time. We are also committed and dedicated to making sure that this shows up in our legislative agenda. ensuring that our values are also matching the fight that's happening at the state level as well. If there's any ways that we can partner, whether it's showing up to our office hours or showing up to our community conversations that we're having, please, I just want to say, appreciate your partnership. So with that, We also are coming to a close here. I want to just reiterate right before we end that there's also resources and materials that's been dispersed to all of us. I'm committed to ensuring that that's always going to be in my newsletter, which goes out monthly. We can have conversations of what it looks like maybe using our city council-wide communications. Those materials will be dispersed through the social medias as well. But again, thank you, Kathleen, so much for your time. And also, thank you, Gretchen, for always being a champion and just making sure that we get these resources in front of us.

Thank you. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful day. Take care.

So in closing, I just wanted to highlight we have five more Public Safety Committee meetings at the end of this year or for the rest of this year. I just wanted to just highlight Assistant Mayor Schumacher and also Assistant Mayor Baker has been phenomenal making sure we get topics. But if there's topics that's led by either a vice chair or even other council members that you wanna use this time to explore, either external partners or some programs that's happening in the city, please let me know. We would like to get that ahead of time, at least have a month notice on that. But again, thank you so much for your participation, everyone. Okay, we are adjourned.

Yeah, you want to come in?