Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

to order in the city hall community room. It's Wednesday, August 20th, 2025 at 6 PM. Roll call. Demer here. Brief here. Here. Mweeny here. Moss here. Newman here. Robson here. Wilmont here.

All right. approval of minutes from June 16th. I do have a responsible programmer is going to post this that on page two the uh second to the last paragraph expense of Mr. Ike Angelie on the last long line third line down the landlord was not addressing it that could be reported that could be reported it to the city so it needs to be deleted. Yeah, I didn't have I didn't understand that sentence. City code fell reported. What does that mean? First sentence of what?

That same paragraph. Mr. EO actually responded that some code enforcement issues to zoning and some do not. But that all city code city code what issues issues violations isn't there as which page is this? not just state city code violation to violations. Okay, there it is.

Anything else? I move to set this to the minutes. Okay, Charlie makes the motion. Rick seconds. All in favor of passing. I Okay, everyone said I and All right. New business pre-application discussion regarding Crestview, the Cresview PUB, and UAL. We have John Gilmore who's the president of the U-Haul born in Michigan and Jeff Stefani just as vice president. Correct.

Right. Uh yes, there's an attached memo in the packet. Uh the two gentlemen have visited city hall twice the last couple years regarding the potential to use the former Kmart for a U-Haul facility. And at the last meeting with Lisa and I, we suggested that if they would like, they can come and present information to the planning commission, hear any planning commission's concerns uh prior to the if they then want to proceed with a formal application to modify and amend the PUD. The planned unit development for the property includes with approved for mixeduse commercial bank office research and family multif family residential. Uh it does not allow for warehousing or storage. That would require a change in the peed underlying plan. That's a major amendment which will go before the city and eventually to city council. So the reason for the meeting is kind of exploratory. They want to present what their thoughts are for the property. It's your opportunity to ask some questions based on your feedback. They can make a decision if they want to proceed or not. So I think they had a PowerPoint or no we uh within the pack that we submitted there was uh

right and everyone had a chance to look at that. So you don't have to repeat that.

Okay. Good. So that that pretty much is our somewhat of a presentation in regards to that. As John indicated that we have met with me and John twice twice now just discussing the the former Kmart there. If you got a chance to look this over, you see that we've we've done this uh type of reuse of a building. Specifically at Kmart, you know, a hundred times across the the nation here. Specifically in in the nearby areas, we've done Susain Marie, the former Kmart there is now a new U facility. Holton Lake, the former Kmart there is a Uall facility. Manaste is a new all facility. Eskanaba, uh, Byron Center, all across the state. We've repeated this in numerous similar situations where we have taken over, uh, you know, a dark property, an old Kmart. They're very difficult to fill. There's not a lot of retailers that want to take on that kind of square footage. They're good buildings. They're solid buildings. You know, it it it definitely from a a reuse standpoint, you know, from from a a ecological standpoint of of reuse of a building rather than allow that to be tore down and rebuilt and let that kind of infill go into a landfill. We we've managed to reuse these very effectively to the benefit of the communities that we operate in. We've been looking for opportunity up here in Mataski for quite some time. Uh we we have wanted to be in town here and when the Kmart shut down uh you know some years ago now we we had talked to the ownership. We had started the the ball kind of rolling. Big lots kind of took a part of the building and you know they they thought they might be able to lease out the other half. They were unsuccessful for some years and then obviously Big Lots uh has gone under. They're somewhat in a resurrection. and we'll see if that takes or not, but you know, they have no plans to reopen back up here and the ownership has not been able to lease out

this space subsequent to the loss of Big Lots and they had the other portion of the building for lease for some years without success. So, what we're offering is essentially uh if you got a chance to look at the packet is a similar situation where we would we would take this dark building. We would revitalize it. We would, you know, clean up the imaging a little bit on on the building, brand it a little bit. You all keep it very It looks nice. It's a nice looking building now. So, we're not really looking to change a whole lot there, but we would turn this into a nice benefit to the community. Climate control storage, retail box, showroom with moving supplies of all kinds. Um, you know, when we talked to to Lisa and John, um, you know, the the idea of having a fullrun rental facility there where we'd have our trucks and trailers, we we're we very much would like to have it there, but there are some obstacles in terms of where we would be able to position the equipment. We're open to the idea of still doing the full run center, but we're we're again here today to sort of talk to you folks as to what your opinions are on this wi with us taking over that building there and and potentially doing a full run you all facility there or what other options we might be able to come up with with you guys. So, we don't want to waste anybody's time here tonight, but we definitely appreciate you giving us a chance to talk to us. We're 85, you know, 80 years open as a a company run by World War II veterans. That's what started us out. Same family that started us is the same family that runs business. Now, when you all comes into a community at large, we don't leave. We we we wouldn't come in and then leave this place. You know, we wouldn't change this and then take off. We we don't close down. We we've been in this for 80 years and we intend to be in this for another 80 years and beyond. So, we're not some fly by night company that's just looking to lease this. We're looking to buy this property and and revitalize it. So, again, we're we're here to get some feedback from you guys. So, if you have any questions or comments or concerns, that's why we're

here. So, okay. Did you want to say anything? Um, I'll echo what what John said. So, uh, Lisa and John, thank you for setting this up. So, I appreciate you folks at least hearing us out. um we're very open to any suggestions and you know maybe our standard footprint isn't the uh the vision we have here. So that's kind of what you know I'm willing to discuss how can we make this work? How can we make this blend with the the community as it is now? And it's uh you know I'd love to get some feedback and and see if we can move this forward. Okay. And take the conversation back to the c the commission. Rick, would you like to start us off?

Well, I wondered is the would the whole would you be uh taking over the whole building or purchasing and using the whole building? That is the plan. Yes. Yes. Okay. Um and elaborate could you for me on on the indoor storage function. I I'm really not familiar, although I have seen a couple local buildings now that have been remodeled and turned into indoor storage facilities, but I I personally have not been in one. I've used a a storage facility myself previously um when when I was making a move. Um but but could you talk about how how the indoor aspect of it works?

Yes. Yep. Obviously, you can't pull a car or a vehicle into the building and unload it next to a unit like you do outside. So, how do how does that work exactly?

So, what what happens with this? And this is a fundamental change in the storage community at large. People who are storing items um you know, especially in a community like Paskki here, you've got a lot of second homes. A lot of people are coming up here for vacations. They're bringing their stuff with them. You know, we're bringing electronics, things that are very affected by weather, that are affected by heat and cold. The exchange of different temperatures can have a wild effect on different items that you purchase. So, when you're storing in your traditional outside drive up storage, nonclimate control, it's not insulated there. Your goods are very affected by that. And so, what we do mostly at this point is we do interior access climate control storage. So, the temperature stays there about the same year round. So when you're storing your stuff, you're not having to worry about moisture. You're not having to worry about, you know, heat or cold affecting the items that you're storing. So with our facilities, especially in these Kmarts and others that we build now, we have what are called drive-in bays. So there are bays built specifically into the building where you're able to pull your car in, you shut your car off, the door closes behind you, there are carts available for you to load and take your items directly to your unit, offload into your unit, open the door back up, and pull your car back out. So, so that's kind of what I would be seeing in this particular photo here would be

very similar although they're operational but there's some photo one I can point out

and one more this is probably a good example what's the title uh it is ashkosh Wisconsin is the It's the wood grain door. Is that where they're saying? So, Lisa, do you know where the garage door would be on that building? You have a mouse that you could show us. We haven't proposed proposed anything.

This is a very generic layout, but we would add that to the building. And on the the more finalized site plan, it was a flector where we would install the bay for drive in. on this photograph. I assume I've seen it's an exterior story here too. Yes. So we have that proposed on here but we are again this was just an initial to sort of show you what we like to do and then get feedback. So in Oshkosh we did do this we propose that on here but this portion of building reflect is this exact would be something similar to that. Okay. I didn't realize that. That's the crash.

Yeah. Well, I have a question regarding the the actual proposed retail space. What percentage of the entire facility would be retail? Uh you'd probably be looking about four to 5,000 square feet in total for dedicated to retail. Okay. Yeah. And then John and Lisa the in the memo you noted that outdoor storage is not allowed is indoor storage. Okay. So and then if it were allowed that would be for the entire Crest View development. Correct. So then some it's not specific to

whoever's in Hobby Lobby someday could say we want to turn this into an indoor storage. Right. Okay. Well, or if the PUD is to be modified, couldn't be stipulated that just be this particular portion of Crest View. They're unless they're they're purchasing the property. Well, that was my question. Is the proposal to purchase or to lease? Purchase.

We are we're looking to purchase specifically the Kmart and the adjacent two parking lots that kind of come with that. So the remainder of the facility would would remain with its current ownership, but the Kmart building and those two parcels you see divided by an island there, those would come with it. Okay, Carolyn. Um I think my questions are answered. Um actually the outdoor fenced in storage area that's left over from like the garden center, would you guys utilize that behind the fence? We traditionally remove that. Okay. So we don't have a use of it. So, in a lot of cases, I I mean, in almost all cases, we've removed the the fencing and just kind of turned that into more either parking or just open space.

Okay. Yeah. Um, one other question comes to mind, we have a lot of vacant storefronts in that whole little strip. And in your history of revitalizing these types of buildings, have you seen other businesses pop up that are in compliment you?

Yes, absolutely. So, and it doesn't it's complimentary or just you know in in terms of revitalization Byron Center comes to mind. So, we purchased a Kmart in Byron Center which had a similar size strip mall in it. Um it had a former grocery store that was closed down. Uh it had a lot of empty vacant spaces. Subsequent to us buying it, um a gym has actually built in the other half of the parking lot. So, we have a Planet Fitness in the parking lot now. Uh we have a hardware store that opened up. uh uh

Tractor Supply opened up in the former grocery store and they probably have I I want to say at this point either all if not most of the small spaces are filled up in the the strip mall there and we've been operating out of that one for six years now. So it definitely saw a nice revitalization of that particular strip that was very empty when we we first purchased it. Thank you,

Max. So, one of my primary concerns was just the small amount of retail space that was allocated. Um, because that is seeing kind of a resurgence that the other side of the strip mall. Um, you know, Paskki bridal moved over there, Little Traver's Bay furniture. Um, it would be nice to see that entire strip along the front or just feather in a couple more retail spaces. That way um it doesn't function like a dark sure space. Yeah, that's why we're here today is for suggestions. You know,

I don't have a photographic example, but a recent adaptive reuse of a cane is down in Acme Township on US 31 and 72. They did exactly what Max is talking about. the the front third of the building or fourth of the building was all the windows. All the facade was taken out and they put in all windows and then they devised it into about five or six businesses and they have apartments there too as well. And then they have behind

Yeah. Then inside they have storage in the middle third and then the back third they've carved it up into what they call flex warehousing for small contractor businesses. So they were able on that project to have a mixture of retail storage and small businesses all in the same building. The issue that I have and I've talked to the guys here about it so it's not new. This property suffers from lack of activation. There's not enough traffic down there. And the unfortunate part about it is yes, U-Haul would do an adaptive reuse of the building, but based on their own traffic trip generation, they only bring in 30 to 40 vehicles a day, which isn't a large amount of traffic, you know, that you would need to

help fill parts of the the other part of the shopping center. That's the dilemma. And and I we did talk to him about using some of that parking lot in front of the building for out buildings for to maybe have some new retail or restaurants. That is like the gateway to coming into Paskki and you know my concern with it still while being occupied still being vacant.

Sure. And if I can just speak to that just a little bit because he's absolutely right. Our trip generation is is very minimal. So the the nice part about that is that, you know, it's already a busy road, so it's not going to it's not going to cause a lot of congestion when it's already a busy corridor. It is the gateway. You know, the nice part about having us there is that when you first come to town, you first go to your house outside of town, rather than drive to a storage facility on the periphery and never see any businesses and you're likely to just come into town, go store, throw your stuff, and head back to your place, you're going to come to you all to drop your stuff off. So 30 new people a day who are dealing with us first thing we're the first place they come to in town. So we introduce them to this shopping mall that otherwise they may not have even come here. If we were just some storage place out in industrial park they never had the opportunity to see this strip mall. They may never have come here. So that's that's why we work so well in these these strip center or uh you know the trip generation is small. We fully admit to that and it's actually a benefit to what is already a busy road, but we give that introduction, that gateway into town. Uh that's what we we provide is this window to these shops that are in this mall will benefit from someone who may never have even gone there will now see it because they came to us because we're their first stop. They got to drop their stuff off with us. They got to drop their equipment off with us. So it gives them an opportunity to be introduced to something and you know 15 to 30 people new a day to that is is not insignificant over time. It's a It's a growing benefit.

Charlie, any uh any consideration for adding a second story? We have not ever considered that it

um um well, first of all, thank you for um doing this. My concern is that that lot has been vacant for many years, nor do I see another commercial use for it given its size. I know the hospital had considered renting part of it for um use, but that was decades ago. Um I just given the economy and everything, I just don't see it. I see this becoming a dead zone even more than it already is. Um the other thing is where you've got your many outdoor stoages that's almost unseen just because of the topography and the highway is up so high. Um so I see that as as viable. Um so your indoor storage you're actually cars will pull into the building do their unload. Um, is that where you would keep your trailers, your vehicle hauling

platforms, all that would be inside, not out in the parking lot?

That's where we kind of we've talked with Lisa and John on this that, you know, we we don't have a great solution for that is our preference would be that we use that space inside for the the self storage for customers to utilize. The equipment takes up a great deal of space. So if we were to utilize the inside for storing equipment, it would in minimize dramatically what our effect would be to actually be able to build storage and to actually make this financially viable for us. Um so one of the solutions that we had come up with a little bit is those outuildings because the the the ordinance speaks to the equipment can be in the parking lot behind a building. So if we were to build in the parking lot front and then have the equipment behind that and we have some options outside of the mini storage as well. We have other buildings that we build uh that would be more restricting view but the papri again as you referenced we're sitting down you know 20 25 ft from the road there. So as much as we can we can try to keep the key as invisible as possible. We had to talk to Lisa and John about that they had brought up the store equipment inside as well and from a from an aspect of how do we feasibly make this work with that it it would be very difficult doing the project along with everything stored inside

and I appreciate that consideration um and your use of again at the bottom of the hill for that type of storage that may be feasible although it's hard to imagine how many pieces of equipment or how much space you would need for that at least at this point. Um would you consider if this went um installing rooftop solar, you know, for electric generation or something like that? That's a huge that's a huge footprint. Sure. And that could be of value to the community. It definitely would pay for your electrical usage. But just something to throw out there for consideration is

I've never done it in Michigan, but I do know we have facilities that have had that installed. So, it's something I'm more than willing to look into and and see the viability of it. It is a very good spot for that. And so, I it is definitely something that we would be more than willing to look into and see if that's somehow we can make that work. For sure. And Robert, we have a professor on staff that is actually working through some of the latest and greatest sustainability and eco-friendly um building concepts as well as revitalizing a sustainable building as well as new construction. So, um we would have them add this to the list on what could they do to to help um you know, selfishly it does help us too in a lot of ways. So it's all a cost uh comparison. So some some of this stuff the cost is just not it's not feasible. But

for other items absolutely um you know we do a lot of things already um with that with that practice in mind. You know example being our our furniture pads are made from recycled Lee jeans. We've done that for many years. Our packing peanuts are are made from starch. So they're 100% biodegradable. So, we do a lot of stuff already with that in mind. So, to answer your question, yes, we'll we'll have them look into it. Um, certainly. I know that the Kmart there in Detroit is is it lead certified or is it? It's got a certification there from Detroit on our our practices to uh Yeah, we did a study with Wayne State a partnership on a building down in Detroit. They did

former Kmart there. Yeah. So it's we're definitely very open to all options when it comes to you know reuse or you know green energy that's you know we we're very much that's stuff that we look into like Jeff had indicated we have a a guy on staff professor Yang and he he this is all he does for us that's his job entirely is to find new ways that we can be you know lessen our footprint lessen lessen our impact so that's where our mindset is always at is how do we lessen

thank you I want to bring it back to the table Albert Um my my question is when that when view was built part of the reason it was built in the hole if I go back and look at the history which we did for our neighborhood at one point it was built though provected another uh resource that we have it's be the gateway to town and when you come into town you see the bay right over not so much over the Kmart building but certainly over the rest of the plaza and that's why I think it says the zoning uh requirement is 30 feet and our thing and I think yours says 33.7 um and again going back to question if you're just buying this property or if we open it up to the whole plaza um I would have a little bit of concern about any height increase in that area um the view the view of our our bay at least to me it's my personal opinion um is is part of what we need to to keep track of. Yeah, I actually I'm not sure where we referenced the height. We don't plan on raising the building at all.

Okay. Right. Um so that might have been in your thing here just draw. It says one story 33.7. I might have made a mistake Albert. That's the as the building sits. Buildings would be 12 feet tops. They're not high. Yeah. Then the the other question I have is you talked about maybe becoming a full red center. What does that mean? I know I'm familiar with Kazoo was a where I spent 41 years. Portage Avenue. Yes. And one of the great things that I used two or three times over the years was put a hitch on my car. Yeah. Sure.

Um if if we will that be part of this because it is that that kind of changes it becomes a service center and and that kind of thing. So, um, at one point when you said we're think about become a full rent center, what is your initial vision and then if it became a full rent center, what else might be going on there?

Because if you're starting to do automotive service and putting I mean, it's not really service because you're putting a hitch on, but still cars are going up on lifts and then we have we have zoning things for service stations that would have to be considered I would think. So a lot of this Robert is or Albert sorry is um when we say full line. So traditionally our full line would be all moving supplies, anything you need moving wise as far as packing supplies, everything you would need. Our full retail line of uh vehicles, trailers as well. Um we do offer, you know, uh the the hitch installs in some locations. Some locations we offer propane depending on the areas. So there there is a lot to what we do. Um our vision is is kind of what is the vision of the group? What would be acceptable? That's that's where we're at. So would we love to go in and do the full gamut?

Yes, we would. Um with a market study to make sure those those services are needed. Yeah. Um but we're also willing to storage is what our market study first said. there is a shortage of rooms specifically climate controlled uh secured self storage in the area. That is our primary. So that is that is the biggest opportunity as far as uh for us what we would like to start with. If those other services are allowed and favorable, we would love to discuss it. We're very open anyway.

Can I ask Charlie? You asked if we're adding a second story. May I ask what was the reason for that? Well, it it would be prohibitive for in terms of the uh just the height the view shed. Got it. Yeah. Okay.

As as long as you ask me that question, I'll follow up with uh this is the gateway to our community. And uh this idea if it were if the Kmart had been located out at Bear Creek Crossing or something like that, it would be no-brainer as far as I'm concerned. I am concerned about it given the current location and I'm particularly concerned about vehicle storage. Mhm.

So that that's my concern is once and I understand an empty big box store, you know, that's that's not great. And the longer it sits, you know, um that's not good. But once this is purchased and it's a U-Haul facility, indoor storage, um that's what it is for the next 20 years, 30 years, 40 years. And it it really at 30 to 40 vehicles maybe a day going down there. That's not going to do anything for those other businesses there. And that's not to say somebody, you know, it could be five, could be next year, it could be two years, three years, five years. Somebody might have a creative use for that large space that is not going to be possible because it is a U-Haul store in the gateway of our community.

I think Max brought up, somebody did about another place where they had retail. Um,

John, that I think something like that would be appropriate. I agree wholeheartedly with Charlie and Matt that this is not the place for this kind of um use. Uh, it isn't going to help the shopping area. It's a really attractive area and of course it's our grand view as you come in. So, I sure don't want to see those exterior short storage units. I wouldn't want to see the the heavy duty equipment. And I I would rather uh first off, this kind of use is not allowed in that district and it's also not allowed in the PUD. So, we would really be altering things significantly and I don't think we want to do that. I think that um there are other alternatives that might include housing, you know, might include some include some other uses that would be more beneficial for the for the total um PUD.

Well, and I would add to that that I think it's a great model, a great concept. Um, and I'm not unsympathetic to the issues that uh, US Properties or whatever their name is is experiencing and trying to find somebody else or another creative way to do it. But we have discussed some other potential alternatives that uh, maybe we should look a little bit more deeply into. But uh I I I just don't think this is the location for us and the and the solution the solution person. Well, this is not a the purpose of the meeting is not for the planning commission to make a decision.

Understood. Just to provide feedback. Understood. I think they want some feedback. Honest feedback. They need to hear feedback. That's feedback. That's what my intention was. Rich. Well, well, the biggest negative in my mind is, you know, the outdoor storage units, which I presume are more of a standard outdoor storage unit. They're that are not climate controlled that those things are popping up like mushrooms

everywhere. And I can't imagine that there's even a market for that unless it's it's a convenience to your customers to have that sort of storage along with indoor climate control storage that you're proposing. So to me, that's a deal breaker going out of the gate to have that outdoor storage potentially. you know, if the front of the building were were somehow to be adapted in a way that would be a little more user friendly to the the larger wall, I could see possibly doing that. You know, picking up on the idea of trying to create some other smaller retail stores and and um having customer parking in the lot that is farthest north and moving the vehicle storage in the lot that's to the south because that's what's hidden the most as you come down the hill.

But even though it's hidden, it's still visible. So I I don't think that's I'm just saying if there were tradeoffs to be made or um ways to make it acceptable. Those are the kind of things I would see. Yeah, I agree with Rick on that. I think that the retail would be more accommodating to the side if it was flipped to the north end of the building on that corner where it's connecting to the strip malls that have a covered sidewalk area. And then those little mini storage pods like they should be tucked in on the north end of the building or the south end of the building area completely.

Yeah. or potentially like when you're coming into town, it's really um this whole area is kind of hidden because there's a hill and it's a bowl. You know, if the storage units were, you know, worked into along the landscaping better or along the south end of the the building, I would be more in favor of something like that instead of just popped in the front of the or in the middle of a parking lot. It's too bad you all didn't buy our van and could have bought kind of Yeah, should have bought that would have been sweet.

I have a question for the planning commission. Um, if they were to be looking at like the Dunham's building, would we be concerned with having pods in that parking lot and Yeah. trailer concerned? Yeah. Sad enough said

Oh, yes. that Paul 603 L Street I I like I understand the the use of the building and some things I like about um the indoor storage. I understand what they're trying to do. My biggest objection is what several of you have said is um on the exterior the the pods um I've got up on Google Earth you can see that lower parking lot. There's no question you can see that lot um from the road and several people on the planning commission probably remember us agreeing with the owner of that property to have more visibility to that site. They cut out a bunch of trees. So, we're kind of going in circles here with that they wanted more visibility. Now, we're going to put things there that really have an industrial look to it. So, that's the biggest objection I have is the outdoor mini pods. So if if with those they're kind of standard to our business plan.

They we we put those out there for recognition. So while they are active used, they're not something that we have to have. That's why they're on the plan. We wanted some feedback on it. They're not married to them. We do like to have them as you saw in most of ours that we try to have them out there for recognition purposes. It's it's a changing industry, but it it changes slowly. People see an old Kmart, no matter how you dress it up, they don't understand that it's storage. Those buildings in the parking lot bring recognition and that's why we include them. But again, we we can operate without them. So, I I don't want anyone to think that that's make or break for us. Obviously, we would like to have them and we understand the feedback that that you've given on them. It's not something that we we couldn't eliminate and and we definitely appreciate the feedback in terms of like the retail along the front of the building. I I heard from most of you that that would be agreeable. It it I don't know if that's the consensus. If if we did some sort of a retail strip along the front of the building, if that would make it more acceptable for us to use the the back half for the interior access storage. Uh that that would be uh something that we we could look into and do if that's sort of the consensus of you guys that this would be something you could move forward with that in mind. And then as for the the vehicle rental and other things in the parking lot there, you know, I doing retail and just storage is something that we could also look at here if that was something that would be more meaningful and something that we could come to a consensus on that would be agreeable is without the trucks or trailers that this would just be storage and retail.

Okay. Um any other comments? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Great. Next. Proposed amendments to article 17 general provisions and article 20 board of appeals sentence rules. Okay. Lisa.

So, the ZBA has been doing some um consideration changes to these two articles to make it very clear how long a zoning amendment is good for, how long a variance is good for, and whether it's for use or for dimensional. Um, so you've been provided with language that they approved at their um, August 5th meeting and they have recommended that this come before the planning commission for consideration um, to potentially schedule a public hearing and then it passes from that city council to make a revision to our zoning ordinance. Um, essentially it makes it very clear. The language in our current ordinance is I'm guessing original from 1974 and um, a lot of legal terminology and explanation that's not very clear. So, um, you'll see there's the proposed language. This is new for section 1721 that would include the the, um, zoning permit being valid for 12 months. And then under section um 2007 which is where um articles sorry this is article 20 um you'll see there's the existing original languages one through three on the front page front of the page on the back there are now four and it basically breaks that down making it very clear um what the requirements are in order to have a valid permit and to retain that issue going on.

Um, no, it's not so much the issue of that. It's the issue of a permit being issued prior to the expiration of the variance and the permit being good for 12 months. So, this makes it very clear that it expires upon the expiration of the variance, not the zoning permit. So there was kind of a conflict. So typically people would get a variance and they would apply for a zoning permit within four to six weeks. Some might take three months, but as of more recently we had someone at 11 months apply and technically the zoning permit was good for a year from that time.

So this will make it so that the the zoning permit is valid for one year from the date it is approved for a general zoning permit. But a zoning permit that's issued with a variance is only good for 12 months from the date of approval. So it's it doesn't go beyond that. So from a user standpoint, I'm I've gotten a variance and how long would it take me if I know I got the variance at the ZBA? How long would it take me to get a permit? I mean, if I just went in the next morning because I had my stuff lined up at the building department or here, whatever. here. It could be anywhere from the same day to two weeks is what I typically tell people. It just depends on the workload.

Um the application submitted prior to yours. I know the county is similar. I usually tell people to apply to the county the same time they apply to the city and then the county will hold it until they get your zoning permit and then that way it's a little bit faster. Is there a process to extend it in extenduating circumstances? Like you go to the for variance for the the you go you go to the I'm just trying to think from a user standpoint. You go to the county and they put five more things in front of you. Now your variance you would have to if it's for a variance you would have to reapply to the ZBA. Okay. To get an extension to get extension they would not extend it. They would basically it would extend. You would have to reapply.

So you'd have to pay the fee again. I feel like construction timelines sometimes grow beyond 12 months. Yeah. But it says you start construction and if it's on schedule. So I think that that gives this zoning administrator leeway. So if it's a if it's a generic zoning permit, I would have the authority to extend it. Like we had during COVID, we had people who had started projects or wanted to start projects and they were delayed. So, it was not uncommon. Those did not have variances attached to them. They were specifically for a zoning permit. Okay.

Um I've had people say, "I need, you know, six more weeks because I my contractor can't get in here and do this." So, I've extended them to allow that, but not for variance just for a zoning permit for use. If they've got a, you know, practical difficulty of sense that, you know, it's not like I just didn't do it. It's there's been delays and I haven't been able to. Typically contractors are the ones applying anyway. So they're the ones they're usually pretty timely. I think I've only extended one um from a generic or general zoning permit. Um but essentially that's you know as far as the variance is concerned that once it's done it's done. they would have to reapply.

Well, well, to start construction, isn't it I mean, it could almost be two years, right? Because you've got 12 months to get your building permit. And let's say you've got a variance from facilia, you got 12 months to get your building permit and start construction and put a shovel in the ground potentially. And then, you know, your building permit's good for another 12 months. The county would be the one that would offer extensions on that, not the city. And this language has gone through um legal counsel. She has reviewed it. In fact, she wrote a portion of it, the revised version on the uses and um tried to make it help make it as clear as possible. So, just so you're aware of that as well.

Yeah, I feel like it's not enough time in the 12-month period. Getting harder all the time to accomplish stuff with the current, you know, work environment or I should say construction. Yeah. Yeah. Well, even with my own projects, if my clients know that or we know we need to go for a variance, I'm going to go for that variance before I spend a lot of time designing something that they potentially don't get approved. So, once they get their variance, then I'm going to go back and finish the finalize the design. So, there's time in there that's also needed before we would even get approved. Yeah.

Well, as with any zoning code, planning commission has the discretion to make changes. This is their recommendation, but the planning agent wants to insert their time frame. That's your prerogative. Yeah. Well, what what do you think you would need in terms of time?

I've had projects last three years. I've won my home on Michigan Street. Um, not a great example. Um, I also applied for a variance. Um, the guest house is just finished. I've owned it for 2 years and it has a substantial amount to go. It's going to be another two to three years. Um, and that's I'm a normal person and I'm spending probably a million five on this project. Normal people can't do that. Um, and in order to do that, I have to stage it. So,

but you're talking about the construction part of it, right, Max? Yeah. But I'm saying also if you want that substantial investment, I think it takes a significant amount of time um for people to find skilled labor. um and to have it delivered. Right. So, you're saying if you didn't have all the money up front to pay for that, it doesn't even matter if I had all the money up front, too. It's the lack of a talent pool. Yeah.

Well, but once you pull the building permit, then there is no I mean, as long as you're building limitation, right? I continuously because there are two structures I've continuously extended my my permitting. Um I'm sorry, what was your question? Well, as long as you're under construction and you're making some progress, you don't have to renew a building. This really is we're talking about zoning permits here. Variance. Yeah. So, so this would be where someone gets a variance and then gets a zoning permit. They have to get a building permit and start construction within 12 months. What if the it's doesn't say when it has to be finished,

right? It just says it has to be finished to start construction. It has to commence you on a schedule at least 18 months. That's 24 months and if you're not there then you can get a 12 month 12-month extension to 24 months and beyond that you there's no change in this in the project. Exactly. Then beyond that, you would have to reapply maybe or get an extension. And they were against the extension. The ZBA was they wanted it because I think they wanted to keep people accountable to do it instead of just dragging it out and then

how many years later you just continue to get nothing's changed. But I think Carolyn's analysis is pretty spot on because if somebody gets a variance, then they usually will then turn their architect or designer loose on creating the drawings, which then get goes through a bidding process with contractors and subcontractors. You that alone may go from nine months. So if you're doing 12 is the cutoff that doesn't really give you a lot of precise if the process was extended to 18 or 24 months would the zone ZBA have any problem with that?

What would their position be? I think their recommendation was 12 months. I understand. But if it was longer than that the other thing that would that negate their request? I don't think it negate their request. I'm not I haven't been as familiar with it as Lisa, but I think one of the meetings I was in, they wanted something that was def that had that had uh parameters to it in terms of time frame. Yeah. So, but if you change the number from 12 to 18 or 24, are they going to care? I can't speak to that, but I mean it's ultimately this is a recommendation they're making. They don't have the

like the planning commission does to make that determination. They're simply making a recommendation to planning commission to consider. language that we have guidelines that are very specific. Just a minute, Rob. I think um one of the goals would be that you don't want a lot sitting empty and not being developed after we there have been a number of them we've said yes, you can do this and then it sits there for years. I think that's part of the goal is to get things moving and if it's not going to move then let it go and let it be open for something else. When you say it sits there for years, do you mean with construction partially completed sitting sitting empty vacated?

But if it's already been vacant, what what does it matter if it gets there vacant another year? What's it matter if it's a vacant lot to start with? We'd like to see the vacant lot filled like the one across the street. I'm thinking of the where family video used to Yeah, exactly. Family's good years ago. A good good example of that where it just sits. Then you're penalizing the developer by forcing them to come back in and apply for a variance when they have the funding at that point to move forward with and they may not get the variance approved.

Well, when you talk about punishing, the the thing is that we already have a limit in terms of site review. So, as an example, the folks that bought Family Video had to come back to the to the planning commission twice um to ex a second time to extend and they still haven't put a shovel under the ground. So, if they have no intention of putting a shovel in the ground or they're not prepared or they don't have the money or they then it's not a matter of punishment, it's a matter of how long do we as the public need to wait for them to do their thing. Was this brought up on Monday at city council with the vacant buildings, vacant lots brought up in the

It was not. No, but there was coincidentally, and I'm glad you mentioned that, there was another potential change to the zoning ordinance that was brought up that was shot down. So that uh DOA because uh there were not enough votes to do anything with the zoning code before the entirety is reviewed and passed. So the question that I have is I don't have any problem with this. I think it's a good it's good to it's a whole deplor but should we be doing this now and trying to advance it now or should we integrate it into uh the Zoro process?

Yeah. I'd say when's the last time the ZBA even met after they have I I think I don't think before January this is going to fly well I don't think we should predicate our decisions on that. I think we have to predicate our decisions on what we think is prudent. And the bottom line is once the council gets the full draft of the zoning code, I don't think they're going to act on it very quickly. So, we could be talking a significant amount of time. So, that's true, too.

I think it it it's the responsibility of the planning commission. We don't we we don't second guess what city council is going to do. You take the action that you think is appropriate. That's their decision politically. Well, from that standpoint, I don't really care whether it's 12 months, 18 months, or 24 months, whatever you guys think is reasonable, practical, and real. I'm trying to get a read from the three architects that we have here. Well, other than that, I don't too too short.

Yeah. I mean, just think if you went to the ZBA in November and you got it approved and you're designing, you really can't put if depending on the size of the project, if you want to put in a foundation, you have to wait till April to do that anyways. And then you're really not going to get a project done in five to six months, depending on the size of it. started years the design process started. Yeah, I

this is I mean this hasn't been an issue that I'm aware of other than the most recent last minute application. Um well the design process is more ownorous than it used to be with you know additional code requirements that are every three years coming online because the building code changes every three years and so you've got you know and there's always they never take anything out. They're always adding things in. So the book just keeps getting thicker and thicker and and there's more design time required to turn out than there used to be. I was saying okay so maybe simple go ahead

going back to some discussion this a recommended recommendation by the ZBA is what they think would be best to help them do what they need to do just like we thought what we put together last week and was shot down because developers should be able to do what they anything they want to do not quite that I'm paraphrasing but that's how I read It had to do with the parking spats we should have and

parking. So part of me says if the ZBA wants this now they'll work in I feel like they want to have some teeth so they could say to somebody you got to get started and when I first read this I didn't understand and as you guys were talking this is not when you have to be finished you have to be started and and define as architects define starting somebody said a shovel in the back um and unless we want to contradict what the ZBA came with the lawyer saying it as their bestation. I could go with this and then we can get some feedback and look at the when we do the zor it makes sense to have 18 months or longer. I I don't I don't feel like I know enough other than what our architects tell us which I I I know that I had a project that started on the it's not a it's not a I don't have any variance. It's just fixing a basement that got wet that started March 31st. Is not

is it possible, John, to have an another line in here that says that if the project is taking longer and it can't be achieved within if it can't be started within this uh 12 months that they can come back and ask for an extension from the CBA at the CBA. I I think at least it can correct me. I think what the ZBA is trying to get at is that once they approve the variance, they want a set number of months to give the applicant to pull their per their building permit. Is that correct? Y permits and to start construction.

So really the that to me the the issue is is 12 months a reasonable time frame or is something like 18 months a reasonable time frame? Because we're not talking about completing the project. we're starting we're talking about from the date of the variance is issued that they have to pull their building permit and then get started, right?

It doesn't mean they have to have the project completed. So, what's that what's that magic number that the planning commission feels comfortable with? The the zoning board is saying 12 months. I'm hearing from some of the PC members that that's too short based on construction drawings, negotiating with the contractor, getting things ready to go even to submit your plans to the building office. And then the other part of it is you don't just get your permit from the building department when you drop your plans off. They can take several weeks or a month to review the plans before they issue a permit. So I think the the key here is what is the number of months that we think is appropriate?

Well, the tradition has always been 12 and I I assume and I I haven't been party to the CBA discussions on this, but I presume that they just left at 12 because traditionally it's always been 12 and maybe that was not part of their discussion. Their discussion is more trying to make sure that the language clearly states that there's a time frame, not so much what the time frame is. So, I mean, I would I would say I'd like to see it change to 18 months if I hit my heart. Yeah, I agree. Is there um we're guessing what the ZBA wants and will tolerate?

Is it is it possible? Do we have to act on this tonight? Could this be moved? And we have somebody from DBA give some direct feedback. Maybe that's inappropriate. I don't know if that is or I'm just asking because I hate CB as a whole would have to speak on it. Okay. This is a recommendation. They do not have the authority to make these decisions. So, this is why it's just this is a recommendation to the planning commission to consider this language. So, it's your your make those changes. Not today. It's 18, but city council would say we want it to be 12. Okay. And it would require But I do think I don't think we're pulling this out of a hat. I think we have three experts here who made suggestions. 18. I just don't like All right. So 18.

That's okay with me. Is that specific just to the variance sounding permit? Not so we'll keep So general divisions zing permit without a variance 18 for one way the varian correct. Okay. And change that in both amendments. Yes. So the question is we need a motion to put this forward to council. You need a motion to schedule those public hearing. Sorry, that would be I had one more question.

Um, apparently they discussed and I'm talking about the zoning ZBA that they wanted to be um informed if uh a compliance permit expires. Is that something? Do you remember that discussion? Yes. Okay. Essentially they were um that's nothing they have any the body doesn't have any authority okay over those. So the attorney had essentially okay um just let them know that that's not something that they have authority over it would be basically these are these will be the new guidelines and when it expires it expires and I mean they can certainly inquire but it's not

well they could acquire like we get these notices that show things maybe there could maybe they could get something like that is that within their purview we could provide them with one that's not something they've asked for but okay Well, apparently there was discussion. There was. Yes. All right. Uh, public comment. All right. I move that uh we schedule a public hearing for September 17th. September 17th. Uh, we review this language including the change from 12.

I second that. All in favor? I. Everyone raise with that hand off. Is there anything?

Oh, it's uh Eler. All right. T is going to join us.

Okay. I give you give the planning commission a brief on what during the zoning committee zoning review committee discussion on article six which is after this discussion. We got into the outdoor lighting provisions and it was decided to pull exterior lighting out of the zoning code and have it as a police power ordinance in a city code like the signs. Signing ordinances outside the zone code. Lighting is outside the zone code. Then during our discussion, further discussion on the exterior layouts, we decided, the committee decided to take a look at the International Dark Sky Association template for model exterior lighting that complies with the dark sky guidelines considering the fact that Edund County has one of the few international dark sky parks in the world. So with that we took a look at the model ordinance. We made some modifications to it to simplify it actually to try to simp I guess the word simplify it to make it understandable because the model ordinance was using symmetric data rather than uh empirical or English data. So we converted everything into foot candles and lumens instead of lux. So that's the purpose of the ordinance. Planning commission wants to proceed with it. It would be appendix D of the city code and it would basically govern all exterior lighting in the community.

One thing that was that's set up in all of the dark sky codes is that they have lighting levels or lighting zones. They have them zero through four. We don't have a zero in town because that is natural areas like out in the wilderness. But we have lighting zones one through three. And then I reviewed what the different lighting zones were and then applied what the zoning districts would be that would fit into those lighting zones. And then eventually if planning commission wants to proceed with this, we would have a map created that would have the lighting zones uh that would be reflected by zoning codes. So instead of having a zoning map, we would have a lighting map that has all the different the three different zone colors that when the planning commission is reviewing the site plan and it falls within a particular zone, then they can refer to what the lighting requirements would be. So that's in a nutshell the the the zoning committee which is Cynthia, Rick, Carolyn, uh Charlie, and Ted. uh have gone through and done an initial review. I had a sidebar conversation today with Ted on a couple of items really standardizing the lighting turnoff times. There were a couple of different ones in here. We decided to standardize everything to 11 p.m. So there's no no conflict. Uh other than that, everything is still the same. And at that point, I'd open up to planning commission for comments and the usual that we go through on a on its own.

I do have a question about uh the landscaping lighting versus building lighting, nighttime hours. Landscaping lighting was 30 minutes after a business closed. And um nighttime hours will begin 1 hour after closing. So no one says night time night time lighting again one hour after proposing the definitions.

Um okay line 278 nighttime hours. And then the other one is page three line 110. That's number four. Landscape and accent lighting two shall automatically shut off before midnight nightly or within 30 minutes. We changed that to that. So all anything that and then the nighttime hour definition 10 is in brackets because that was kind of like a a whole length but that would also go to 11 o'clock. So 11 p.m. 11 p.m. So where it says midnight where it says uh Yes.

Yeah. And we just substitute 11 o'clock. Everything's standardized to 11. Okay. Okay. Then what about the closing which is later the landscape is 30 minutes and the um the the other one is uh the in the definition that it says for business and events 1 hour 1 hour. So so landscaping will be one hour.

Yeah. It's it's also important to point out that this has to do with lighting installed or replaced within the after the effective date. So this we're not we're not there's there's some we'd like to come after but we can't come after them with I had a question about that

except as was pointed out by John to me that um in cases of nuisance or complaints it would apply. So, so that was my question to I can't remember where it was, but I saw there was like a stipulation if there's a complaint made and then who does that goes to Lisa and then so then how does that get handled? So then ultimately I will notify the property owner that there's an issue and it needs to be addressed. They'll have a time frame that they need to basically. Okay. So if someone has their their house lit up and it's just blinding light into the neighbor's windows, there's a few of those around town. Yes, there are. And if they complain, then you would okay

notify them. Okay. So, I stand corrected that it's not just replacement or installation. It's it is will be it will have full police powers for nuisance violations, supplement,

right? So, enforcement line, it's page seven, line 207, enforcement and penalty. You go down to line 212, number one, the zoning administrator charged with enforcing this chapter shall have authority blah blah blah. Um, it says she can make uh w make a waiver for up to one year if the property owner demonstrates the compliance creates unreasonable hardship as balanced against the potential impacts of non-compliance or results in conditions that are materially detrimental to health, safety or welfare. So that's where your nuisance um exception is.

If I could few comments. I worked with John on this. He did a really nice job that the dark our ours was we didn't have much in our previous zoning ordinance. We had four points. Um so it was a little the dark sky was was really excellent and why this is important is is in the purpose. A lot of this is essentially I would say uh 85% of this is straight from the dark sky coordinates.

The problem with the dark sky is it did uh it didn't put many metrics in their um data points uh foot candles. It was relying on the SNA illuminate illuminating engineering society of North America standard tables and book. It's an extensive book and a lot of its interior lighting. So, I think what John tried to do was pull out um what we thought was pertinent in lighting levels and John I think created the lighting zones and we'll be creating the map. Um so, I think it it was really uh nice job and very well done. Um not everything's going to be perfect. Um there's provisions in there for historic neighborhoods. Um there's some allowance to to not have to one thing that's lighting generally has to be shielded. So some historic neighborhoods will have the porch lights that are not shielded. They're are lantern type hanging things. So I went asked a question about that at a meeting and the answer was in that like the whole large historic district a neighborhood uh John the Mitchell what's it called? get some degree. Yeah,

it's like they would fall within that, but some areas of of town wouldn't. Uh, I think the discussion too with Lisa was it's not like people are going to be going around trying to find um problems, but we've uh we've had a few issues in the neighborhood with some blinding lights from and it's so some of this is going to be honestly where there's big kind of nuisance issues. At least there will be some ability for the city to work with the property owner and try and fix that. And I think what I'd like to do on this ordinance, uh, I think I had it in my memo. I re was rethinking it before before I want this to move to city council. I would like to whenever the planning commission is done with its review, I would like to submit it to the International Dark Sky Association and see if they said that this would be they would certify this as a one of their, you know, they would they would recognize it as a as a uh international dark sky model ordinance

and then move it on to city council. So we can, you know, if we get that extra designation, I think that means something a little bit more to us. Definitely got to agree. John had explained to the the zoning committee that the the dark sky, as you said, was very strict on not taking their document and modifying it to any degree any degree without asking them. They're very specific

because they feel they put work into it. So, they don't want you. You can't just say your dark sky comp. So, so we did he did make some changes. So, he'd have to get that. I I had no problem waiting till you get a response from the dark sky dark sky association. But whether we're certifiable or just compliant in the end uh I think it's you know it's what we need and it still should be moved forward. Yes. This is a huge step forward. I think said what we had before was extremely thin as it was this one notable. Yeah,

that's this is using a metric, you know, with the dark sky. There's no telling how long it'll take to get a response, but I'll send it to him. I have a question is every time I read this, I find something. But we had talked about some different situations in town and we had looked at the IEES tables of lighting and recommendations and one of them we talked about was u the service station areas around the pumps and I don't think that made the table. Well, it got it had a separate it's it would be depending on the zoning district.

The zoning districts would be the V1, V2, B2A, and D2B LZ2 and then it's got uh canopies. It's got canopies. Got canopies. Yep. So, all right. That I'm assuming is the one line 129 page four. No, it's uh page page five. H5. Oh, okay. In the in the um text, Lisa is telling me that the the marathons would be three. So, you'd have to go down and take a look at the drive canopies there. So, the the max horizontal would be 20. The average would be five and then the average slash to minimum would be 4.1 or 4 to one.

So, um that's pretty low compared to what what it is not, right? No. So, like if we take that 20 foot candles, I'm I'm pretty confident using a a not a professional meter, but if this says 20 foot candles, um 20 is pretty bright. Like you could read at your kitchen table at 20. You can um they're like 60 foot candles. You could probably do surgery. You could still do s You're saying they're at 60. You could probably do surgery. Okay. So, but 20 would be I'd rather not better. It's still French.

I like the introduction of French into our ordinance. Okay, so that's covered, John. So, um the thing exceptional usees the and this is line 125 number eight on page four. Exceptional uses the following exceptional uses use type shall be required to submit blinding plans to the planning commission for approval of associated with this use type subd. So they actually it looks like this is an exception where we could if they requested brighter lights you would

we would we would uh reference the IEES for evaluation of suit suitability. Yeah. And then you you could approve it if you want. Well John isn't this saying the these specific A through E are required to submit lighting plans? Yes. Whereas other places are other situations are expected to be compliant but not submitting them. So those are very specific. Okay.

I mean you let's you know if you go over to Paskki field watch a football game and they have lights on it that's really bright. And so what this would say, these are potential exceptions, but they would have to present photometric plans and then we'd have to evaluate. Maybe the hours would be stricter. Yeah. Based on the time of the event. So if you could I mean, if you're comfortable with it, my next step is I'm going to send it off and see what kind of response we get.

Is it too premature to schedule a public hearing? We could schedule a public hearing, but before it goes to council, I want to make sure that it's we get some read. I get some reading from the international sky, the dark sky association if it's compliant. So, well, if they would there, but I don't expect there would be major changes, but if there were, then we'd have to have another public. So, I would say wait till I just have a clarification and that's on line 205 appeals. Um it says uh any appeals related to decisions regarding outdoor lighting shall be made to the zoning administrator or dozen. So the appeal goes to the zoning administrator not the it won't be the ZBA

initially and then if they weren't happy they could go to the they're not happy with the zoning administrator decision then they can appeal to the CDC. Okay. Do we need to say that? Okay. So, I I I don't disagree with you that we should hold the public hearing after we give feedback. But if we scheduled a public hearing for now, we got feedback between now and September. Then we could just say that we want to postpone the public hearing and move. really I don't think I'd get response back

because we have to post 15 day ahead of time. So we we'd be putting these with notice out what I was going to say around the first or second of September. We're not going to have any feedback. Just was looking for a way to advance this. No, I I appreciate that, but we'll we'll send it over to him tomorrow and see what their responses. Thanks John. I think this needed Yes. All right. Get out of here at seven by within the hour.

You're doing good. All right. Uh why do I have a never mind. All right. So, this is the 20 26 to 2031 capital improvement program. We had a meeting with city council. There was much discussed Um, and now we're So, this doesn't need to have a um public hearing. This just we recommend it. It goes to city council.

That's correct. So, tonight's tonight we can discuss it if there's any recommendations different than what was in here and we passed on to s. So, I think the focus would be 2026 and maybe 2027, but well, the way CIP's work, they're for a six-year time frame, right? When planning commission recommends the city council, when city council adopts it, the projects that are in the 2026 column automatically migrate into the the city budget.

So, they become part of the the operating the budget for the next fiscal year. So, Uh so the the projects in the 2026 column are probably the most right now the most important secondarily would be 2026 or 2027. Absolutely. And if I might um uh offer that what we really need to be looking at as those entries that refer to the planning and zoning. In other words, do we feel John submitted uh some ideas in the process? Do we feel that those are the planning and zoning projects that we want to engage in

in that order? the order of for instance in 2026

looking at section six of your book um John has suggested the historic district study committee and the sub area plan for ward 4. Now, if you could look through the uh the next years that in the uh 2027, the only entry for planning and zoning is the Mitchell Street redevelopment plan, which I believe is West Mitchell, right? The corridor that we've we've talked about. And then if you go to the following year, it's non-motorized transport plan, an extension of the bare river corridor. So if the question is in terms of the planning commission's future projects, where do we feel we want to be putting our emphasis and what kind of financial support do we want to back that up with? Because this is the place to identify that. Now I will point out also uh that the livable Paskki master plan which is exclusively the responsibility of the planning commission is due every 5 years and 2026 is the year that we need to take some kind of act according to Michigan. We need to take some kind of action. We can rubber stamp it and just say not now or we can engage in some form of review and process to update the strategic plan. And that's the one that sticks with me the most because if we look at um I had Lisa very kindly print me out a list of the

action items and strategies exclusively a list of projects that are um enumerated in the 2021 plan. And interesting, the one area that had the most number of uh hits was zoning with 15 hits throughout this nine pages of uh of action items and uh and strategies. The planning committee commission has embraced that and has taken on the project of reviewing. Well, we thought it was going to be a review at first, but now it's rewriting because we realized it was so out of whack the uh the the zoning. So, that really got initiated through the action items and the strategies outlined in in this plan. And that's appropriate, I think, for the planning commission and all boards and city council to take the the strategic plan and with the exception of urgent matters like taking care of downtown buildings or uh addressing ice storm issues things that come up obviously in the 5year interim period. I think it's absolutely crucial for us to be uh using this long-term strategy as the citizens view of what we should be putting our energies on. And the question is if it's due for renewal next year, do we not want to have some kind of entry in the CIP that supports that effort? see how much how much energy we have gone into the zoning part and to do a good master other than like you say put a check in the box over stamp it which since we've done so much of this the zoning department and I'm still

working on it but there's going to be other things that we need to start looking at when we completed this but there's going to be new a new 5year well it's going five year old it's going to change I would be all for asking for some money to do an update, but I don't know what that looks like. I mean, I don't know whether it's, you know, but let's have John. Yeah, I would on on the update of the master plan because it's coming up. That would be a topic that I would get with with the city manager on and have that included in the operational budget of the city as a line item, not in the capital. Correct. So, we wouldn't need any outside consulting. Now, no, you have an outside console, right?

Yeah. So, but these other areas that you've identified, we need additional help outside of yourself as the planner to some degree. Yes. Like in in particular historic district. Well, yeah. Yeah. That's that's a special. The other one that was of concern is the transportation plan. Now, I know you put the transportation non-motorized transportation plan I believe in 28. Yeah. Is that right? Yeah.

Um it's a it's a 2015 plan that we have that actually is not a very good plan even in 2015 because it doesn't really uh uh propose a vision for nonmut motorized transportation outside of the greenway throughout the city. And this is a this is a hot topic and there are a lot of opinions about it that have been expressed recently. But the question is at some point in time, don't we need to put forth a vision so that when we're redesigning streets and rebuilding streets that that vision is taken into uh account in terms of um making the the city more bicycle and walking friendly. Um, so I just put those two forward as two areas that if we need outside money and support, maybe they should be prioritized.

I wouldn't recommend doing a non-motorized plan. In today's world, we would do a active mobility plan. Oh, okay. Yeah. Because you want to look at all forms of transportation. Yeah. Right now, for instance, when we do streets, correct me if I'm wrong, when we did Howard Street, there was a public uh open house where the plans were shown for Howard Street.

Similarly, uh Kalamazoo, when it was done, there was an open house for Kalamazoo, but they're done as one-offs, not in keeping with an overall vision for what the flow of the city should be. And that's where I think we we might miss some uh some continuity going forward. I agree. What are you suggesting, Charlie, that we move then? I I don't know. Move that from 28.

The first question is what are our priorities as a planning commission? What do we want to be focused on once this zoning thing is off off the table, which could be a while, but once it's off the table, what are the other big big rocks we want to start to move and and do we need money that should be reflected in the CIP in order to move those rocks?

We're going to be in 2026, we're going to be finishing hopefully the zoning ordinance. will be dealing with the master plan update and then maybe these two the historic study and sub area plan for W four. Um I see your point with if we had the active mobility plan that might influence what happens for the sub area plan for W 4 EMTT and Stage corridor. In fact, there was even a bicycle path that was proposed in that area. It's already part of the plan.

Yeah. Well, it it's al also overlays into the water and waste water system because they're redoing all the roads and what are you saying? We could make the roads two feet wider to get that bike. You know, that's part of what we want to be thinking about as they're doing this. My reasoning for wanting to do the W four is that out of all the wards in the city, that's the one that's going through the most transformation as quickly as possible.

Understood. I'm not minimizing the need for that. And I think it's important that the planning commission really take a look at what further redevelopment's going to occur and what areas that we really need to focus on housing rehabilitation and public infrastructure. Uh just what's happened in the last five years there, it's been pretty transformational already. But I think that's the ward that's going to see the most activity because it's the most affordable in the community. So that's one of the reasons why I thought it would be important next year for the plan commission to do a more detailed a deeper dive into W4 in terms of what those opportunities would be.

I think that's a very legitimate priority. I think for 2026 we have a full plate, but maybe if the um Michel state red development plan and I don't know how what's being scheduled, but that's 85,000 and the nonmotorized plan was 90,000 that because I anticipate that's going to be an active mobility plan and that'll you'll have to bring in an outside consulting firm that does traffic engineering.

What does that look like versus a non-motorized? Well, it's a more inclusive. It's not only bikes. It's it's uh it's pedestrian. It's it's public transit opportunities. It's it it just involves all aspects of transportation in terms of activities. Non-motorized primarily. The one that was done in 2015 was sidewalks and bicycle routes. Active mobility is a lot more more involved than that. Well, and when you talk about traffic studies, um, aren't we going to need a traffic study study anyway for the sub area plan for W 4?

No, not a not not a detailed one. Maybe for the Mitchell Street corridor because of the uh the number of curb cuts that we have, the number the amount of traffic. Uh, but but with lofts and the block, we're not going to need traffic analysis there. I think we can probably internally I don't think we need to bring in a traffic engineer to do any trip generation analysis and synchro modeling or anything like that at this point. So is the Mitchell Street redevelopment plan uh more critical?

No, I think if I think based on I mean you know what Charlie's thrown out is probably legitimate. Maybe switch the two. The Mitchell Street corridor is more of a long range plan looking at redevelopment. You know, my my personal feeling is that we're starting to end up with a lot of dysfunctional and obsolete buildings on that corridor. I mean, some are vacant already and hard to use. I can see a lot of that corridor in the next 10 to 15 years being just scraped away and rebuilt.

Yeah, that'd be great. And and I want to I want to make sure that the community has a plan that talks about urban design in terms of how we want that corridor to really transform and be a little bit more pedestrian friendly and be a better gateway coming into the community than what it is. You just can't plant flowers out there. I totally agree with that too. But again, it's a matter of priorities. We are going to continue. We need to continue to do redo streets and I want to make sure that as we do future redoss of streets that it's consistent with an overall plan and vision for the future which I debate whether that's an active part of our decision making now.

Yeah. I'm not trying to be critical. I'm just saying I think this would be an enhancement. Yeah. And it is one of those things. You ride a bike, you know, down Kalamazoo Street and good luck. You know, I I ride my bike and they don't want bikes on the sidewalks there, but you know, when my son and I are riding our bikes to go play tennis at the high school courts, you know, and you've got cars parked on both sides of the street and people are driving 40 miles an hour. I mean, it is dangerous. So, well, and we we could do better than what

I agree. I agree. I agree. And I anecdotally, I mean, I wasn't involved in the city affairs when that that decision making was done, but as I understand it, it has to do more with uh traffic quieting. Um traffic calming traffic traffic calming. And that's great, but only when you take into consideration the other forms of mobility and whether you're making their lives more difficult. So, uh, you can still have a bike lane outside of a parking street. Well, you can as long as when that door opens at the wrong time. Yeah. Yeah. You know, uh

Oh, yeah. You got like anything you got if if the sidewalk's not wide enough to accommodate, then you're you're you're just endangering people as opposed to making people safer. Anyway, I So, is there a consensus about uh dealing with Mitchell Street redevelopment plan? That sounds pretty important, but so does the non-motorized plan. So, well, I think based on the discussion that we're having, you probably want to switch the two

right here. And then the other one is is right here. in 2020.

I also like the idea of a waiting till footing the next year for the mission street because we you can just see as she's been on Emma Street now because of the development that's gone other houses you know my wife always says you fix one house in the neighborhood and that makes other houses fix it. used to see that the transformation going on on Em Street and getting better because of the next area that really could do that is between Mitchell Street and Char Avenue. The the housing in there is RM housing that's been around for a long time. John showed us some great pictures of what looks like looks nicer housing being built, you know, but if we took pictures of some of the housing that existed there, it need that housing needs some help. And if in redevelopment plan, we can do things like using the enterprise zone kind of things and and and look at housing in there because that that is some of the least expensive housing in town. And I would think that if we it give us another opportunity to not just look at redeveloping the commercial port but the attached neighborhood.

That's it.

And and and so if you look from you know Madison, Jackson, all I own all the way up all those streets that way and that whole area is a big RM zone that needs help. So that um you know I'm all for helping landlords make a better place because we do need rental places. But I'd rather see that personally that zone is already RM being developed than taking our traditional neighborhoods, our traditional residential neighborhoods and filling available with quadplexes. At this point in time, I think I'm still I've said it before, I I'm not 100% against quadplex and triplex in R1 and R2, but I would like to see us spruce up and develop our flex zone, which is R3 and um our current MS before we start adding quadlexes and dlexes to the historically um limited uh multifamily housing areas and and so I think that having that discussion in 27 and adding because that I mean that's a part of town that really could use and could really help housing because the better the housing is well live in Lancet if the housing is good. So, it's people people look at what they get for $800 on Jackson Street versus $800 a month at a Lancet and they can say, "Well, I guess I could pay the I could pay the fuel cost." Um, but if we if we fix some of that up, I think that'll help. So, I like the idea of changing that to next year, long story short, to switch in those years.

Well, right now the Mitchell Street redevelopment is for scheduled for 2027, right? And the active mobility plan is for 2028. And the discussion has been we'll do the mobility plan first and then do Mitchell. So right we would be postponing Mitchell for two years. Yeah. But also give us time to look at that all there. Yeah. By the way,

is that consensus that we switch them? Uh Cynthia, just real quick, after zoning with the most uh action items and strategies, the non-motorized plan was next with eight mansions in the in the in the living pavsky and the historic district came in with six just below that. So that we're we're on the right track. I I really like the idea of getting the it I think that getting the historic district is going to be hard and I think the sooner we get it started the better because we are setting up our zoning ordinance for a historic district. So historic go.

All right. All right. Any other discussion?

Yeah. With those two changes to approve to recommend approval to the planning commission with the revisions to the city. Yeah. I'll make a motion to recommend moving this to city council with our recommended changes. Second. Okay, Carolyn made the motion. Rob seconded. Um, for Bob seconded. All in favor? We'll

make this easy on Lisa. Everyone voted I. Okay, we have Did I drum roll? No. Well, it's zoning ordinance updates for article six. You I did not have article six in my packet, but it is when I looked on the fact online. It's online and it's in the agenda. It's in the agenda, but did you get it in the pack? No, that's why that's why

I looked online today. Did you have any I thought you were trying to save paper. Well, that's bummer. You know, we worked hard so that that I could get on the meeting tonight. Think our just move forward. Yeah, but I've got a notice you're looking at. All right. Um public comment can I6

um so I guess it's not comment on the full process but so far at all as all these articles have come forward we look them over and we're told this is what the zoning committee had recommended so far at no point the body that was voting any individual. Is that correct? No, we haven't. And so until they go to the lawyer, right, and come back, that's the point that the whole body will vote on the or the articles that we've completed thus far,

right? But we're not going to do that till all the articles get. You don't have a public hearing until all of the articles are right in a draft. In a draft that the lawyer is that the lawyer then reviews, right? So we're we're not going to vote on it as a bot till after public hearing. And I'm just want I'm just trying to understand the whole process because things are going to lawyer and yet if there's questions at the public hearings or there's questions on the article. Um is it got to go back slowly that I'm just trying this? This goes back to our original conversation about setting up a committee to begin with as opposed to trying to do this with the full planning commission.

It it would be appropriate for the full planning commission to go through every article thoroughly and have consensus that this is what the planning commission wishes to put forward after the review committee has given its suggestions and before the hearing and before a legal review. That's what I'm think we should we should be they should be discussed at some point. Right. Okay. I'm just that's what I'm saying which is what I thought it was on the agenda for today. Right. It should have been we've been working on for a week. Well, I have several copies of it. So, does that count? Well, no. Because they get a chance to review it,

right? But just like Charlie said that the committee was supposed to try and hopefully have some reasonable ideas and make a reasonable draft and then then it comes to the whole commission to make their best shot at draft. We're just trying to make things easier at the committee and I understand to get all the run done. So, we're not all we're not all speaking with time,

but other than I've taken the time to be with most community meetings, there's four of us, five of us that aren't regularly at this committee. And just to make sure that we understand before it goes to lawyer, it seems like we should be moving right after after chapter six. Then we are going to be dealing with building high we do as a commission you know the residential the districts whether we're going to consolidate. So those are big picture and they're coming. We're we're not going to do that at zoning committee level that's coming here. So there's going to be lots to discuss. definition.

Would it be possible to forward uh the article to the members of the committee and ask for them to do red line versions with any questions or comments they have and send it back to Lisa so that we can review that more efficiently. They've got lines. Yeah. Right. So they can somebody can just type an email saying, you know, line 235 change this word to this word. Right. Exactly. That's all whether it's a red line or you collect it that way. apologize that like I said it's on it's online it's acted online I don't know why we didn't get it here live we'll have to find out internally but I I would just caution um part of the value of the group it's not at least

is the interaction is it being a group so Charlie might think of an idea that someone else didn't think of andly it might impact them um so I I always like it when the whole group can hear what everyone has to say. Just just to cl Yeah. Just to clarify what the procedure is, the zoning committee does its job, which I think they're doing a great job of crafting the language. Then when they're satisfied with that article, it then it comes to the PC for the PC to go through and say, "Okay, I make some changes." Then I go back and make those changes,

right? Then I set that aside and then we move on to the next article. When we get it all compiled, then I send it to the attorney and then Laura or her associate will then provide us what they think, what their comments are. So then we can bring that back to the planning commission and we can see what the lawyer what their comments are because it may require some additional revisions. When that's all we have a nice bow around it, then that's when we have the public hearing. And then after that step, then it moves on to city council.

At what point we've discussed the possibility of having the old document and the new document and a uh comparison of documents in between. At what point would that be done? We will do that at some point. I cannot tell you how detailed it's going to be because well the people that are on the committee know that we have really rewritten the code. Absolutely. I mean it's comparisons are difficult. Yeah. It's going to be but if we want it to pass I think we need to provide city council and the public with I I think we'll give them a general overview of what the areas are that have been changed. But well that's you accomplished that in your PowerPoint.

Well, that's what I was hoping for something more detailed. I have all of the every document we've had and as that got updated then I would retire that. I have the whole stack. I understand. So if somebody wanted to take that and go through they could see the progress.

I have every edition by article. I have an archive that has every when we started all the way to when we're done. So, if anybody wants to take a look at those 3,000 pages of paper, all the red lines that we did, they're welcome to do it. But what happens when you do a new code is that the attorney will write a ordinance that officially repeals the old code and then they write an ordinance that enact enacts the new.

Understood. Understood. But we're going to have people in the community going to want to know, did you get everything that was important to us in the old code? Is that included in the new code? And then they're going to say, and by the way, which language has changed? And we're not going to be able to tell. It's not a red. It's not a rewrite. I I had a personal this person. I've had numerous people fill in my ear recently and not not not our favorite not somebody that's on this all the time. Yes. Several people in town. Um it'll be interesting.

It'll be interesting. It's going to Hey, the one thing that I do want to talk to planning commission about to get some feedback in for next steps. We are at a point where we're going to start working on article two and three. Two is reviewing each of the zoning districts, deciding if we want to keep them, if we don't. we want to consolidate them, whatever. And then article three is what land uses in each of these systems, right?

Then there are the important issues that we talked about at the very beginning workshop that we had in April of 2024. And those are issues like, do we want to accommodate smaller lots? Do we want to accommodate duplexes, which we currently do, right? Are already permitted in many of the zoning districts, right?

What about triplexes? Uh what do we talk about building heights? Uh there's a lot of issues. Okay, those are the those are the issues that the community is usually most concerned about. They're not concerned about do we require one parking space for every nursing home bed. They are going to be concerned about size of lot, height in a neighborhood, number of parking stalls, whatever those type of issues. The question I have for the planning commission, how do you think we need to start that conversation with the community? Do we start with a community survey that asks people what their perceptions are in terms of their tolerance factor and density on unit types, styles, or do we have an open house where we have people come in and that are interested in the zoning and talk about what their impressions are? You guys are all spread out through the community. What do you How do you think we should do it?

I think you would start off with like a whiteboard like you have downstairs already and then you would move it into an open house. I think that would streamline the process and include everybody. Give give everybody the opportunity regardless if they can't make it to the open house. So start with a whiteboard in terms explain it to me some more detail. what you want um what do you want to see in this space? What does that look like for you? Um just like urban planning tactics. You're talking about like almost like a shred. Yeah. Okay. People come in and they draw on a map or something like that or Well, leave it downstairs so it's always accessible during the day. Okay.

And then have sticky notes um with maybe some collages like you had images. Yeah. Okay. where you can or attack where you can

Okay, I think people are going to want to know what's changing and for us to put put up for each of our current zones what things are and then what they think about possible changes um would would be important because that's you know if if people are concerned about density on either side if they say it's not dense enough. We need more room for more apartments. Or if they're concerned that if we increase density, it's going to change a neighborhood that I think that's what what people, you know, where are we now? Where do we think we want to go? And what would you tolerate for change? I mean,

I think you're on to something, right? It seems to me that um it might be initiated with like a a work session where the uh where it's laid out clearly what we have now and what is potential for change and input and then invite the public to input either at that meeting or subsequent to the meeting either online or on whiteboards or whatever. give them a period of time to input suggestions and then we can schedule meetings where the planning commission can hash out what its recommendations are.

But I agree, John, that there should be some kind of public engagement before we uh get too far involved in that. I think a survey would be the first step that I would I'd suggest so you can get ideas and have an understanding of you know data that's you know can you really survey them though before you explain to them what we've got what we're looking for they can look around they know what we have no but I mean in terms of the code itself that's what I'm talking people don't the zones and the codes want to be more big picture I don't want to be too sarcastic about this but people really don't get involved at zoning unless they come to it to pull out a permit for their fence.

Exactly. And then the zoning administrator says, "Well, wait a minute. We have setbacks." That's when they start figuring it out. Right. I mean, I've held public hearings before, community engagements on zoning and people just they don't come, right? They don't get involved in zoning unless they're personally affected by it with them. But you gave them an opportunity. But but but I but I think but I think the approach is is kind of like what Carolyn is saying is

really hearing from people what they how they define their neighborhoods. What what are what are common physical characteristics they like about their neighborhood? Do they like the size of the lot? Do they like it sidewalk? Do they like the setbacks? Do they like the idea of front porches? It's kind of getting people to say this is what this is what I really like about my neighborhood. And then based on that then you can start crafting your regulations around it. Yeah. And then we start showing them things like this pretty pictures like this is what this area would be. This is what we're No, you know, I think I don't know if I've talked to you about this this in the office. This is

about three weeks ago, I was down in Grand Traverse County talking to a community down there, and I had a bunch of people that were just adamant that they didn't want their land use map to show a a a suburban level of density, which was three to four housing units an acre, even though the area that they live in was three to four housing units an acre. So, one of the people that were down was down there. I had asked him, I said, "Is a 7,500 foot lot reasonable?" Yeah. I He goes, "I live on an 8,000t lot." Said, "Okay." And what if you had a accessory dwelling unit on your lot with your house? Would that be okay? Yeah, that'd be okay. I said, "Why don't you tell me what your density is?" "Well, it's two." "No, it's not two. Your density is 12 units per acre. You got an 8,000 foot lot, two units on it. Do the proportion. It's around 11 to 12 units an acre. And they were dumbfounded. They thought, "Oh, it's just two." No, it's not two. You have to look at on a per acre basis. So, there's this this concept of invisible density that that people think if you walk down the street here and you looked at Water Street condos, somebody would say that's dense. But across the street, if there's a house on a small lot that's got a an ADU in a garage, they look at that and they don't think that's dense at all. But on a per acre basis, it's very close to what's across the street. See? So, but but but you that's that's what I'm trying to get at and and get and get the get the community thinking about is what are they comfortable with?

So, right. And that goes back to the have now and you know so if you said you know in R2 right now our density is probably a lot higher than particular correct and and so if you put that out right now the average density in R2 or R1 is and you know is this appropriate then if that's appropriate then we may not want any more dense or we may want it more dense you know um so I still like that idea um I had another thought there.

I think what I could do, Max, to get what you're getting at is have a large map of the city or at least areas of the city broken up on the boards. When people come in the city hall, we've been doing it at the library, too, because they get a lot of traffic. We could ask people, put a thumbnail where you live and what board where you live, and then write us a sticky note about what you like about your neighborhood, not you know, that type of thing. So I we can start really figuring out what what attributes people really relish about their neighborhood and then we can codify that.

I think that's a good idea, John. I think we have to be careful. Density is a pretty abstract concept to most people. Even oddly enough, building height is I mean most people don't really know what the guy I mean I didn't know originally. What's the gable on your house? What what height is that? What's the what's your building height? I mean they don't even know that. So we have to be careful. I like some of these things we blueprint pitasky. There were some sharets and visual things like do you like this or this? Those kind of things would go like like you said what is your neighborhood? What do you like? It's got to be real concrete what we're talking about.

Yeah. And then ultimately um you're going to try and get a direction the planning commission but um the rubber's going to hit the road when you try and show people well we think we might want to make this change. That's something people can say okay how is it different from what I have now. Yeah. I've got we got to put some we got to put we have to put some meat around the bone before we really take the road show out to the community. Exactly. Get some kind of some preliminary feedback home to figure out exactly what people want and then put some ideas together to say is this what you're talking about. Baseline. We need a baseline. Exactly.

Well, you can kind of guess though what the issues are going to be based on what has happened around other communities and what what the issues all across the country. Something that was Yeah. which is surprising to me because we've been talking about um I mean changing our voting ordinance and we're working on it but we haven't had that many people coming to these meetings because they haven't seen a change. There's nothing for them. We have about right we have

we probably have 40 maybe people that have signed up to get the periodic uh updates on off the project website. Everything that the committee does is is posted. Not only the agenda, but the meeting summary. Then as the articles are done, they're posted. And then when we always have a meeting, we always send an email blast out to everybody saying, "Hey, we're meeting at city hall, second floor, blah blah blah." Yeah. And we we don't we used to get at the beginning, we got some people that came. So, but would you propose in terms of putting the survey out to volunt just asking for people that wanted to participate in it like you did with Winter Sports Park or would you go beyond that?

Uh, we probably right surveyed what's in the news. You might as well shout it on our council person can blast. Yes. Our council persons can blast it in theirformational updates. Yeah, there's only two council people that doformational updates. Well, so I get it. We get it. You know, we three does not. We could do it through the uh like we did the or the winter sports park. I worked with uh Shane and Sarah and we put it in the utility bill, right?

And we got we got quite a few hits. As soon as the utility bills were out, we we could see the the responses. The nice thing about surveys now is that you can actually put photographs in and have like a visual preference survey. You know, what's your comfort level? You can say, "Pick what? What image out of these images that you're that you really relate to and they can they can click and then we get the analysis. So, we could do something like that. I like Max's idea." We do get comments. You see some comments down on the tables, people coming in talking about that. Like like John too when you you've talked about triplexes and quad plexus which a certain amount of people are going to create anxiety.

Oh yeah. But you've been able to show you know historically there will be some pictures where you will show what looks like every bit like a single family home. So then you can visually show people this is a quadplex. Is that something? Yeah. Does that look okay? Yeah. That's something we talked about at the um zoning committee level was having an umbrella term where a quad multi-use. Yes. So we don't people get stuck on multif family dwelling unit. What's what's that? How's that different than our the multif family dwelling unit? How's that?

It just it's all encompassing. It's a it's a duplex, a quadplex, a triplex. It just that there seems to be um a negative response to the word quadplex, triplex and so forth. So try to eliminate that and just but be very careful if you change the word once people figure out then they'll some people will get even more mad like if you make it unclear what you're talking about well in the definition it'll say includes duplex triplex and quads. Well I'll come back to the PC next month with a couple of samples for you to take.

I would think also with surveys, just be careful that that the park survey especially when they went out what they would want to park. It was a concept. It was not a the neighborhood choose A or B. Yeah. The neighborhood thought they were choosing whether or not to have a dog dog park in somebody's backyard just because of how it was fought out. Yeah. So, be very careful. And the dog park decision was already made. But we had more people at the Curtis Park picnic than we've ever had before because what what went out for a survey. Yeah. Was not well done. Was not well done. So just be careful if you're going to put pictures out. People are going to take pictures literally.

Oh, that's the purpose, right? Visual preference survey. Yeah. I had one question. Um, for the lumber lofts and the Michigan maple block, what percentage of those are inhaled? Again, people ask me like one bedrooms are $1,400 block. It's a it's a where it's a work in the process,

but I've been faced with the same question. I think though that what I what I've suggested is that we bring it into because you know percentages is one thing but I also want to transcribe those sure I got plenty um um but then there's this which is a corresponding chart and this chart simply takes the AMI time or in a county and the translates it at different percentages that we've been talking about 80% 60 translates it into the dollar rent that we're talking about using 30% of your annual income as as the as the traditional benchmark for establishing

uh rental. So, I just thought you are cheaper by the dozen. I wanted to clarify earlier that I made regarding um the extension on the variance and my $1.5 million comment and the fact that normal people can't afford that. I'm um by no means I in was trying to insinuate that I can afford that either, but it circumvents the process and extends on the building period. Yeah. Okay.

So, hopefully we'll get some rents from Lisa has got calls in to these various uh property owners to see what their asking prices are for the rents. We can fill it in and um once you get that, maybe you can include everybody in an updated version of the spreadsheet. I can tell you that right now for each of these properties for the laws I have I don't think I don't think Oh, you have a copy of that? City managers aren't supposed to get that information.

So, you know, I I I did this because I haven't been able to answer people's questions as to what the real meat is here. You know, what what what how does this all flush out? Um and there are some for for going forward in terms of site reviews. Um the question does uh it does lend itself to should uh these projected estimated rents and the percentages of units set aside for various levels of AMI. Should that be a part of the analysis of the planning commission other than just what color it is? Um and and that recommendation then provided to council for final decision. I I think there are important elements that should be researched and and included in recommendation, but there may be people that think it's outside of our lane.

We did discuss it with the block. I mean, it was we only got general, right? And we didn't get any commitments. Yeah. So, John, what do you say to that in terms of what is that our purview? planning commission taking a look at the financials and the wanting wanting to have a percentage of how many units are set aside for what percentages of AMI always recommend that but it's it's going to come down what the financial uh gap planning is for the project right I mean that's that's really between the city city the really when I say city the city manager city council and the developer in terms of whatever financial incentive package they're using

so what you're saying we approve and have density all day long, but we're not guaranteeing affordable housing, right? No, it's not that we're guaranteeing affordable housing. We're just defining what the plan is.

Yeah. I mean, you can ask the developer, and I'm sure the maple block, they would have said that they were anticipating that some of the units will be targeted for less than 120% AMI, which is a little odd. But at the at the time that they were here for the site plan for the PUB, they wouldn't be able to tell you the specifics in terms of how many units, what the rents were going to be because that's of the financial analysis that goes on later on in the project. Well, I feel like we were like misled on. I feel like a part of it is they were providing the AMI housing. Is it 10 years? The number of years that 102 of the units are 80 to 120.

Okay. Um for the other for the lofts. No, for Maple Block. Yeah. I have I have those numbers. We know that. Well, that that needs 30 years. that needs to be paid cuz I just took this out of the paper. It said 102 units for less than or equal to 120%. And 25 units for less than or equal to this would be a question for the manager. Shame Matt asked a question. Is there a time limit that they have to they have to rent to the a based on AMI then after a certain time limit they're is it in perpetuity or is it

it's as long as the brownfield tip is in place for at least 22 years. Okay. say that's that depends on each program. Yeah. Each program is different. Every program is different. So was going to be 40 years because what the state is. Yeah. Oh, it is. Okay. I heard 40 years.

So it's it's what I'm getting at. It's hard when the planning commission reviews a site plan for the developer to be able to tell you conclusively the percentages or the amounts because it's all subject to financing later on down the down the process. I mean, Shane was working with the developers on Maple Block with the city council right up until they've they approved the agreement. So, I mean, that's and that was a a ways after a time after lag the planning commission had approved the PD. Yeah. So,

well, again, all housing is good. I'm that's not the point. The point is I'm just trying to understand what holes are left and where we need to address 50% AMI and below below. That's the Okay, it is a little past 8. Are we all ready to see? Yes. So, were there any updates? No. All right. I would like to say thank you to Matt for the service. We're gonna miss you.

We got a lot of helpful things to do. Keep right up your look down the road if you get some, you know, free up. Yeah, think about coming back. This was just for info.

Yeah, I mean that was requested. Um, that is the pacer map, pacer rating. Just understand there's a lot that goes into prioritizing road. It's not just simply like my road Lindell. That stretch of Lindell is in terrible shape. Uh but we also have utility issues. So as we all know utility work is very expensive, road works are very expensive. So you can only do so many different cuts. Um and then you need to take a breath. So it's not just the rating, it's it's also utilities under under the ground. So that gives you an idea. That's 23. We're going to be driving the city rating all the roads this fall again. So it will be updated this fall. So do you do similar ratings for util for utilities and uh is there like an overlay to this in terms of

we have utility map water sewer and you establish priorities for those as well. Yeah. So it's really a combination of three different priorities. Yeah. We know where our undersized water is. We know where our super under undersized. So all that goes into the So pacer is just surface condition. Pacer is and curbs condition. Yeah. Just road condition. It's not even ridability which is what Jason has told him. Um my friend Lindell. It's like

but that's not it's it's the cracking. It's the um the base work that that's going on underneath that. Cynthia, one one other comment. Yes, that I just want to point out this was put at your desk. This is homework. So, look at the plan and fill out the thing. And what we what we're looking for in the form has to mark off by number things that you don't like. Any activity that you don't that you don't part? Well, tell us. We're not asking what you like. Tell us what you don't like.

Okay? And then we'll we'll use that along with the public input that we got last night uh to put together a preferred master plan. If you could after you get it filled out as part of your homework, if you're coming by city hall, drop it in the green mailbox, you know, where you put your utility bills. Sarah will pull them together and then she calls me up and I'll come over and get them because we had other people to take it last night, too. Does anybody want to stuff the ballot box? Great. So, if you guys can pass your name tags down.

Yeah, Shane, that's all right. I had to get this on your agenda and I I apologize I didn't do that. Um, I'll have Christine send those out, but I have uh scheduled a training for any board or commission that's interested in joining. This is not mandatory by any mean, but I think it's it's valuable for any and all board and commissions. So, the legal council from Michigan Municipal League is coming up on October 27th. That's a Monday night. Um, they're going to be doing a training essentially called everything meeting. So, everything that's involved with running a public meeting that going to be discussed. Um, so it's like a three-hour session. We're going to start at 5:30 on that night. Um we'll have some some uh snacks and such that we'll provide

during the day. So October 27th, it's a Monday night. Um again, we're going to start it at 5:30. Again, this is not by any means mandatory. It's just um if it's if it works out in your schedule, we'd love to have you um join if if possible. And we'll send that out so you have it. So the the two council meetings are are the 6th and the 20th now for October. Yeah, for October it' be the 6th and the 20th. So this would be a special uh special meeting on the 27th. What's the time again? 5:30. What's it title? Is it

the title of their uh everything meetings? Everything everything meetings. So this would be public meetings. They'll talk a little bit about even though I'm going to stamp that down. you follow Robert's rules of order, but maybe not as strictly as others, but I think that be part of our discussion as well. What is appropriate? How do you how do you engage in a public meeting? Uh what's appropriate may not be um I I just think it's going to be a nice refresher for everybody that uh that uh may be interested. So, what time is it, sir? 5:30.

I'll get an email, right? Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Apologize. I should have had that in your packet. Okay. So, anything else? I adjourn this meeting at