Plan & Zoning - Regular Meeting

Good evening everybody. Uh, welcome to the November 2025 Orange Zoning Board of Appeals meeting. Uh, my name is David Crow. I'm the chairman. To my right, I have Wayne Garrick and Pat Panzer who are our members. We have Jack Demerion. Almost called you Pat Dmerion. I don't know why. [laughter] Jack Demerion who is our zoning enforcements officer. We have Jenny Bowser who is a recording secretary. We have Bonnie Sad who is our public stenographer. We have Eric Rosel to my left who is our other member. There are four members tonight. So any petition that comes before the board today will need four positive votes in order to pass. Um with that, gentlemen, has everybody had an opportunity to read the uh minutes from the last meeting? Yes.

Yes. Okay. Any uh additions or subtractions to suggest? I would make a motion to approve. Okay. My secretary Ba Miss Bowser asked me to make sure I point this out. because you can't pick it up on YouTube out there in television land. So Wayne Garrick has made a motion. Do I have a second? I'll second it. Second by Pat Panza. Uh we'll just go by uh acclamation here. All in favor? I.

Any opposed. All right. Thank you, gentlemen. Minutes are approved. So tonight we have one petition. I'm going to read this into the record. owning zone Orange zoning board of appeals to appear one time on Wednesday, October 22nd, 2025 and one time on Wednesday, October 29th, 2025. The owning zoning board of appeals issues this notice of public hearing. Notice is hereby given that the Orange Zoning Board of Appeals will hold a meeting on Monday, November 3rd, 2025 at 7 PM at the Orange Town Hall, 617 Orange Center Road to conduct a public hearing on the following petition number 1844 submitted by Mark and Stephanie Scarzini. Did I get that correct?

Scarenzi. Scarenzi. I apologize. Mark and Stephanie Scarenzi for property known as 314 and Rose Drive, a variance of section 383-30A set back from the street line property boundary as requested. Application materials are on file in the Orange Zoning Office. A copy of this notice has been filed with the Orangetown Clerk dated in Orange, Connecticut this 21st day of October 2025. David Crow, chairman, Horn or Zoning Board of Appeals. That still surprises me every time I see it. Chairman of the Still expect to see Noah's name there.

Yeah. All right. Um, so with that, uh, do we have any business before we get to it or we'll just call it? Okay. So, with that, I'd like to invite, um, Mr. Mrs. Scarenzi or their representative to come forward and and present the petition to us. You got your I see you brought your help there with you. Is he gonna be speaking tonight? We'll send him up later.

Uh just just uh anybody who's going to speak at tonight's meeting, you can come on up. Uh you have to do it here from the podium. Please don't shout across the room. Shouting across the room will be not taken as evidence. Uh everybody will get an opportunity to speak. This is a public hearing. So please let everybody finish what they have to say. If you kind want to speak, please come up to the podium as this gentleman has done. introduce yourself to the board by giving your name and your uh address for the record. Okay, if you would.

Good. Good evening. My name is Mark Scenzy. Uh my address is 314 Androse Drive, Orange, Connecticut. Uh my family and I are here tonight requesting a variance on our property to construct a usable garage. Um we're requesting a variance based on the following. um the hardships that are current size and shape of our property is a hardship um that isn't self- created that the property has pre-existing conditions. The zoning laws were established prior to our current zoning code. Our property is approximately 45,000 square feet and the current zoning code is uh 60,000. Um and additionally, the corner lot reduces the buildable areas due to the requirement of the larger setback. Um, so we would also like to add that proposed construction uh will remain consistent with the character and of the surrounding properties and granting of the variance will not adversely affect the neighboring properties. Um, we're just requesting the minimum relief necessary to make a reasonable use of the property so we could um store our cars and our um our pellets that we use for whole meeting.

Okay, Mr. Crim I just want to say you're you're building a garage. Is that correct? Okay. And you're asking for a setback variance from 50 ft from the street to I think the 43.6. So you're asking for a 6 6.4 variance. Yes. Okay. Just want to make sure I understood. And technical help is uh working on a microphone. We'll just keep working without it. Um, have to repeat myself. No. No. [laughter] We'll assume we got it right the first time. Does anybody have any questions for for this witness?

Um, I'm I'm curious if any design studies were performed to shift the structure back 6.4t 4 feet because you have 67.5 feet now to the back there with over 40 feet of area and if you shifted this structure back and I looked at the plans and I can see that it could potentially work. Uh you wouldn't have to ask for any relief. Yes. Uh we do you have any drawings of those other studies?

Uh my architect does. We did um we did research that it did not look as nice as it would have looked. I know that's not current ship, but it also that was also we didn't know at the time. We had the B100 survey done last on Friday, I believe or um last week, and we didn't know if that was going to be another area for the the septic for the um replacement septic. I don't know. So I see plenty of room in the north side here. Sort of the northwest side for septic. So you don't have any other design studies that demonstrate the hard not not with me tonight. No.

Okay. Because then you could conform to the setbacks.

Thank you. On the application. This [snorts] your plan here is to bring a new garage. See, there's a little microphone on. I'm sorry.

Your your plans bring the back of the garage flush with the back of the house. Yes. With that little jog there. There's the walkway that goes to it. I think that's on the south side of the house there. Is that right? South is that way. Yeah. Up on the up. Um, I also noticed that uh the only place you need that one variance is on that corner, right? As you go go farther up the southern line there, you get farther away from the road because there's a bend in the road there. So, you said that this this house, this lot pre-existed zoning. Is that correct, Jack? Do you remember?

I think uh what the applicant was saying was this lot is a pre-existing non-conforming lot to today's standards. Okay. All right. And currently there's um black top there, so it just be reducing. Yeah, I was looking at the pictures. I saw that there's you're basically going to be it's it's it's black top now. It'll wind up being part of the house, right? Correct. There's a small attic above it, but that's not livable space, right? Correct. It's not liveable space. Okay.

Any other questions for the applicant? It is kind of an odd corner lot. It's got the circle there instead of the

Go ahead. The thing I want to say is that the um the fact that is kind of a an odd lot and with the curve of the road um you know the way I look at this is aesthetically the house the way it's they the architect did design it even though he's going to uh you know going into the setback just a little bit. I think bringing that garage more flush to the front of the house will to the neighborhood will have a more aesthetic pleasing appearance than actually sliding this garage back six feet. Then I think from the road is going to look a little more goofy if you want to call it that. Um, so I think the, you know, the compromise of, you know, just bringing that little, you know, into the setback a little bit and, um, making it more pleasing for the neighborhood, I I I think kind of to me is just a little bit ultimately a better idea, you know, opposed to pushing it back, getting it into, you know, the setback, but then the house isn't going to look as nice. So I think overall to the community I think just bringing that forward just a little bit how they have it is ultimately better looking. You know the road is just kind of a

big curve there. So but you say septic as well. Did I No. I'm sorry Eric. I didn't mean to cut you off. Did I cut you off? Yes. We well the health department requested that we do a B100A survey. Okay. We got that created unless we to do a replacement in case we ever did if it ever failed. had to replace an area. Okay. Yeah. Reserve. All right. Any other questions? Go ahead. Well, without having the benefit of seeing a study, how do we know that the moving the structure back or a different approach to the structure doesn't function within the setbacks

without you without you seeing the study or without you seeing the plans for it? without seeing an alternative study demonstrating that this is the uh least relief that you would require versus complying with the setbacks. Um well, we did do that. We looked at the plans and completed plans from the architect and we all agreed that it wasn't optimal and it wasn't in the best interest of our community or our neighborhood to do it that way. And we decided it did look best like that. That's why we're requesting the variance based on these arches that I mentioned previously. Any other questions for this applicant? Just giving up on it, huh?

No. For those of you out in TV land, that's one of the people that actually makes the magic happen. I get to see her every once in a while. Usually in the back room back there. swing. Any other questions for this gentleman? Now, I think uh I think Wayne's got a good point uh as far as uh with with the ZBA, you know, it's either black or white and well, let let's save our discussion for okay

the public or when they close the public hearing. So, if you got a question, go ahead and ask. No, the question is is I think it it would be um pertinent uh prudent for you to actually uh research that and uh maybe table this meeting and come back with that information. This way it would solidify exactly what you're saying uh that it's correct or you may have found another way of doing it and not have to come back. So it's just a you know a suggestion. Understood? Anything else? No. You can take a seat. Thank you. Does anybody else want to speak on behalf of the petition? Yes.

Just introduce yourself and give us your address, please. Sure will. Uh, my name is Carol Lety. My husband and I resigned at 321 Annrose Drive. Right across name, please. Luddy. L U D Y.

Thank you very much. We're right across the street from Mark and Stephanie and I can tell you that I agree with excuse [clears throat] me with Eric that the overall look of the house would be much more aesthetic and pleasing to me as the one who would be looking at it all the time um to have it flush with the front of the house. pushing it back, I think, would likely serve the needs that they have for car and um household storage, but it definitely wouldn't look as nice as it would be if it was flush with the front of the house.

M Miss Ly, hi. Update. Um I'd like to just could you just come over here on the map and point where you are where you live in relation to the Sure. to the So, this is Anrose Drive here. So, we're right here. Okay. So, you're across the street. Yep. To the north. Street. To the north. Okay. So, there is an arrow pointing. I think that's must be to the north. I don't get any sun in my house. [laughter] All right. So, you're you're across the street. Directly across the street. Thank you. And with a beautiful front porch that I like to look at their house. Oh,

okay. Thank you. Does anybody have any questions for Miss Luddy? Um, just to finish by saying I understand concerns about um, how far it is from the street. It is a very strange corner that's there, but I think to um, force a backflow of the garage based on a strange corner would really not be fair to the to this Genesis. They really just want to improve the look of their house, the functionality of their house, and it definitely will have a positive benefit on the neighborhood. Any questions from this lady? Thank you very much. Sure.

Anybody else want to speak on a behalf? Sir, I saw you raise your hand before, but Miss Miss Luty, better looking than you, so said everything I was going to say. Okay. It's the curve of the road. It's the curve of the road. Okay. Anybody else want to speak on behalf of the petition? Your helper is telling you that maybe he wants you to He really wants to tell you guys that he wants some more space. He's not he does anybody want to speak against the petition

hearing? Nothing. Uh I'll entertain a motion to close the public hearing. Just one point before that. If we are going to go the route of maybe we want uh additional documentation brought in and we reconvene I my suggestion would be to keep the public hearing open. So maybe a little bit of discussion now just to determine if that's the feeling of the board. Can we discuss it on the public? Sure. Yeah. We we can have any discussion now. Um, and if we decide or you guys decide that, hey, we do want to come back with maybe a little more documentation, then we the public hearing is still open to prevent to present additional documents and get input from the public next time. Okay.

Of course, up to the board if that's the direction they want to go. Well, we'll talk it over. Um, I'm kind of with Eric on this one. Uh, it's it's such a small variance. I mean, we're talking about 6.4T. It is. I do believe there's a hardship based on the curvature of the road and the size of the lot. There is a hardship.

Um the question becomes the one that that Wayne raised which is is it the least is is requesting the various variance the least how do you put that relief necessary? Um sounds like they've done some work. They just don't have it with them. Um, so it sounds like they've considered it. Their neighbors seem to think that it would be more aesthetically pleasing if we if we granted the variance. So, uh, that's my initial feeling on it. What do you What do you think, Eric? What do you

The other thing I'm looking at is like if they actually had to slide this garage back just with eyeballing it quick, it looks like they would have to slide it back like 20 feet or maybe lose was that the mud room was that in between or the I heard an uh over here. So that must mean it's the mud room. Yeah, it's the mud room. You don't want to lose the mud room. Yeah. [laughter] Um you know, it looks like it would have to be slid back, you know. Significant amount. I mean, it's just it's just a weird road that it's just a big curve. It's It's not even a corner lot. It's just a big curve. Um Sure. The public hearing is still open if you would like.

You But you do have to go. Yep. You got to go back. just reintroduce yourself here. U my name is Mark Grizzy. I live at 314 Andros Drive. And I did touch on this subject of the alternative designs on the application. I just did not have a copy with me. I have electronic copy. Um I know I made copies for the board. You want to put your cell phone in evidence. [laughter] We'll have to keep it. I don't want to do that. You know what? That's not a bad thing. My work stuff's on here. So, um I'd have to find it. So, it might take me a moment. But um I did touch the fact that we did you know research alternative ways to build it by building one larger one. It didn't fit our needs. Pushing it back didn't fit our needs. So

well that might that might actually fit the bill if you could show us on a cell phone. We don't have to necessarily put it in evidence. But I would just request that that document be immediately emailed to me after so I can enter it into the record. The application is the one I submitted the 10 copies. No, the the the alternative design. Oh, I don't I don't have that on my phone. I'm sorry. I was talking about the application. I touched on Yeah, we have the application in front of us. That's what I was saying. I touched upon that in the application. I just don't have the designs. I'm sorry. We thought we thought you had, you know, pictures of ours. We were all excited. One way to go. I don't have those on here. When Go ahead.

I I think u maybe some of my comments are misconstrued. No. Um, I asked those questions because I think it's our responsibility to ask those questions. I'm not saying what you've done isn't uh aesthetically pleasing or appropriate or warrants a variance, but I think in order to study the request properly,

then the questions are appropriate. It's not it's I'm not criticizing. Let me put it that way. So, um my second point actually to the board is I'm not sure whether it was announced, but since um since there are only four members here tonight, you you need to get a vote before Yes, they announced. Did you announce it? I said that at the beginning. See, [laughter] I slipped it in there. My my golf game suffering from the same thing. So, okay. So, I just wanted Yes, it's just clear.

I just wanted to clarify and and make sure that when we take an action that we're taking it and it's and it's appropriate. It's just not a rubber stamp. Understood. We are uh blessed here in Orange with a very knowledgeable zoning board. And so, uh we we those are the two pertinent questions to ask every time. Is there hardship? is that the least uh the least impact we can have. So that's uh our board is trying to address both those concerns. Okay. Okay. Great. Pat, you got anything to you can take a seat if you want.

Pretty much covered it. That's exactly uh you know uh the way it should have been approached. Um I think uh I think they should uh table it uh come back with the necessary information and uh and then review it from there. That's my opinion. Okay, go ahead. Well, there would have to be a motion to table. So, right. I'm just I'm thinking my way through it. Um, so Jack, let's let me ask you this. Can I make a motion not to table?

You could. Um, let's let's uh let's let's let's talk this through for a second because there may be a way to to satisfy both points here. Is there a way for them to submit evidence to you either in electronically or whether so they wouldn't have to come back next month and we could just take this up quickly and take a look.

Sure. If if the board were to close the public hearing and offer an approval, they could have a condition of that approval be that the applicant provide me this alternative plan that they put together. You know, it's sort of open-ended though because if it's just, hey, we I need this other document, but it's already approved. You know, that this the map in front of us is already approved. Then it might be a moot point. Yeah.

Um I think, you know, it sounds like the board may be comfortable with what is in front of us tonight based on, you know, the scope of work and hearing from the other neighbors. But I would say if we are going to be interested in seeing this alternative map that the applicant has, you know, testified to it being in existence, I would say we probably would want to leave this open public hearing and not make it a condition unless we really want to get creative with it. But we could make a condition of approval for this. It's just we're already approving it before we look at the other No, no. I'm just I'm just trying to think of ways.

Yeah. Go ahead. Point. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I'm I'm comfortable with the applicant's explanation and with Eric's analysis of how far perhaps that would have to be moved to the south. So, I I have no reservations at this time. Okay. Pat, what do you think? Well, given the aspect of how we we are supposed to handle things on this board.

Uhhuh. and uh that kind of condition um where there may be an opportunity to not have to have uh a variance by relocating the garage uh has not been presented and I think that uh we need to be prudent in as far as that we need to at least look at that. I don't think we can just say, you know, we we think it is, it hasn't been plotted out. So, I would say I would be against it. Okay. Go ahead.

I I think that the designer, not not a registered architect, by the way, but the designer of the project uh did a very uh sensitive job. I think that the uh took the program that is the owner's needs into account and articulated it that it would be an asset to the neighborhood. And I think that um when all is said and done and the analysis that the uh it would be I think it is the minimal uh amount of relief required uh for this particular uh use and program.

Okay. Eric, you got anything else you want to add or I'm I'm with Wayne on this. I think I think we've got enough in front of us that I feel comfortable uh with the with the neighbor's testimony that if we want to proceed now um obviously we need four positive votes tonight so I don't want to put them in a bad spot. Um and I'm not hearing unonymity. So um at this point based on the the rather than go forward and risk go ahead Pat you got something you want to say we just want to look at I just want to show

okay we're going to look at there's a little more discussion here I'm blathering um this is 6.4 Yeah. See this point right there? To get back to there back there. It's past the back of whatever that is. They really can't because of this curve over there. Here. This is this point here pushes them back. Exactly. All right. Okay. Something you're more comfortable with now that you've seen. Yeah. You know, the again the configuration of the road. Um and uh and again Eric uh was on point as far as uh location. Yeah. Um

I think it's also important to note that we have neighbors here in support. Yeah. Everybody was notified. Nobody has come out against this design. Um I think the points made over here are absolutely valid and true. We have to look at feasible and prudent alternatives. Exactly. Um however, I think based on discussion Well, yeah. the the prudent alternatives aren't going to end up any better than than the design in front of us based on everybody's expertise or I will automatically defer to your expertise in this Pat and Wayne and Eric it seems like it in order to make it comply we'd have to move that garage to a spot where it actually becomes an out building and then another property so

I think uh I'd entertain a motion to approve the variance as we we do still have to close the public hearing all right well then I'd entertain a motion to close the public hearing. Pat makes a motion. Second. Wayne or Eric seconds it. Did I do good enough, Mr. Bowser? Is that all right? Or you're going to have to YouTube me to Thank you, Chairman Pro. All right. [laughter] And then just just a vote. We had a motion, a second. Oh, yeah. All in favor, gentlemen. I All right. So, the public part of the hearing is closed. So, with that, we've had pretty much discussion. So, I with that, I'd entertain a motion to approve the variance as requested. Anybody? Pat makes a motion to approve.

After further review, uh, I'll make a motion to approve as submitted. Second and Wayne. Um, Miss Bower, will you close the role? Call the role. Absolutely. Commissioner Garrett, yes. Commissioner Panza, yes. Commissioner Rosa, yes. And Chairman Crow, yes. And yes means vote. We're approving the variance. So, um, congratulations. Your variance is approved. No variance is affected until it's recorded on the land records. You have to provide it for you got to record it on the land records. I I'll be in touch. Jack's going to send you something and you're going to record it on the land records. Remember to bring your $60 to record it on the will be a fee charge. Uh there there is a mild fee at the town clerk's office to record that. I'll take some

I'm going to take this with that. Uh we have one more piece of business to take up. Yeah. Just wanting just an update.

Quick update on on my end. Um, at our last meeting, we discussed the Airbnb operation at 473 Ridgeview Road. Since that has happened, um, the the property owner uh did not file an appeal to the courts. Our town attorney did file for an injunction against the property owner to cease all commercial renting of the property. We just had that hearing this morning and it was uh granted by uh by the judge. So, we now have a temporary injunction, and I gave everybody a copy of the result, um, barring any use of that property that is not within the guidelines of article 3 of our zoning regulations, which uh, pertain to the residential district.

So, I just want to let everybody know that that was just today. I have a question. Sure.

Do we know how many Airbnbs are in Orange? As of right now, I think I only have one property that is listed. I have not had any complaints or anything stem from it. However, the TPZC is in the middle of drafting new language that sort of cleans up our uh residential uh rental language. And that being said, we ab our current language absolutely bars this type of activity as we've gotten evidence of. Um but in the effort of the everchanging world and landscape that people use their properties for, uh the board is drafting new language that I was in in discussion with town council. We kind of want to get that figured out before we begin any other actions that are going to end up in an injunction ending up costing the town a lot of money. Um, you know, so we I did discuss that with town council and we said, "Let's do this text amendment first and then handle any issues that stem from that."

That makes sense. I have a question, too. I think it's the same one you're about to ask. Um, Wayne and I were discussing this before. What is the remedy that that uh we have as as the town if they violate this injunction? It's a better question for town council. I think if they are willingly and knowingly not listening to this order, I believe the property owners, anybody facilitating it, obviously fines, I think they can throw you in jail for a period of time. Can the police go out there and remove anybody from the premises?

I don't know if we have that kind of authority. I don't know if we could knock on the door, hold up the order, and say everybody in here, get out. I don't think that that we can do that. I was instructed by town council, let's say, if there's something going on over the weekend. Um, I would stop by the property, obviously, if I'm available, record uh and document any violations, and then I would be within my right to knock on the door, make a tenant or whoever is there aware of the order. Mhm. What if it's, you know, let's say what if the homeowner is in there? You know, just because there's a car in the driveway doesn't mean that this order is being violated. So, we would have to take that as it comes. But that's a marshall to do that. Like a

a marshall would serve. Yeah. If we if somebody was being evicted, but again, that's not this case here. Well, and the the other problem is we've got an injunction against the owners. We don't necessarily have an injunction against anybody who's in there. Exactly. So, it's not a perfect system, but we are within our rights to make whatever, you know, renter is there aware of this order. How they respond to that is up to them, but we obviously would take any action necessary against the property owner as a result of that. Wayne, it's your turn now. I cut you.

Um, two things. One, what aren't aren't there outstanding building and fire code violations there? And have the um building official and the fire marshal issue their appropriate

They have. Yes. Um it was the building department and the health department both have fairly major violations there. They were also in on the hearing today. We never got to testimony because the applicant never filed an appearance and never showed up. but it was myself, the sanitarian, the fire marshal, the assessor, and the uh building official, as well as the neighbor across the street who were ready to testify today. So, those violations have been issued. They are just being handled separately than the zoning action, but in case we needed to really drive the point home at today's hearing, we brought them in just in case. Obviously, they weren't needed. My other question has more to do with curiosity. What What if the people

the green light? What if the people there don't pay a fee, aren't charged? Does there has to be an exchange of funds in order for there to be a violation? It's a very good question. It's it's a tough enforcement action because, you know, let's make up an example here. Let's say that there is 10 cars on the property, but somebody in there is the property owner. It's owner occupied and let's say it's their own family, right?

So, it is a bit difficult to definitively say that. However, the the owner silence is deafening. You know, uh we hadn't a complaint October 11th, so very, you know, very recently after the property was removed from Airbnb, uh and well after the decision of the zoning board of appeals, uh to uphold or to modify the order. Um you know, there there was a a a gathering there where there was many vehicles um parked on the property and in the street. for me without hearing from the property owner saying, "Hey, you know, we understand that this property is not allowed to be used as this. This is me and my family here tonight." Um, without hearing that, I am left to assume that it is continued to being used as the way that we don't want it to be used for.

So, until somebody shows me something else, I'm going to consider it being used by unknown renters, not owner occupied, and in violation of not only my order, but now the judge's order. Yeah, but you're absolutely right. But also short of interviewing everybody in there, it's tough to Yeah. No, it's kind of an interesting It is take on situation. Any fines that acrew can be enforced with a lean on the property. Absolutely. Yes. So, that could ultimately be the source of the

And I did issue I did issue a fine notice um earlier this month. I think it was shortly after that October 11th issue um with town council. But we said, let's get through this this hearing first. Let's get the judge involved. Um obviously if this continues, fines will be a lot easier to enforce if it's coming from the judge as well. Correct. So that was our attitude. But is that's really enforcement mechanism then is you start clicking that lean and eventually it gets to a spot where you can foreclose it.

Absolutely. Yep. And like I said, I I don't know how extreme it has to get, but I know that, you know, you are playing with jail time if you are continuously and willingfully ignoring or willingly ignoring violating the Yeah, exactly. So, well, that's within the contempt powers of the court then, too. But I was just thinking about here as a town, 100%. We we absolutely can continue with that. So, I assume attorney's fees and stuff would click into those fines. That was included in the uh the judgment as well. That's good to hear. Good. So they are responsible for that. They're they're responsible whether they whether they want to show up or not. They're responsible for No, no. I'm saying you can foreclose and collect.

Sure. We would eventually leans uh fines would build up. We would file a lean on the land records and then it would be up to town council to start a foreclosure action. Right. Okay. Yep. So that's where our That's where we're at. I caught Miss Bowsery yawning. So uh she's got to get home to her puppy tonight. probably needs to go out. It's probably been a couple hours to go out. So with that, gentlemen, I enterain motion. You're good. So moved. Wayne makes a motion to adjurnn. Can I have a second? Pat Panza makes a second. All in favor? I I have a good evening. Good night to everybody in TV land. Thank the people in the back that made us all look good. Yep.