Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Be done by myself, please stand. Ready, begin. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Okay, I've been told that there's a meeting at 6.30, so... We need to make it quick. Can we start with the roll call?

Certainly. Thank you, Chair. Committee Member Skorpanich?

Here.

Thank you. Committee Member Gross? Here. Thank you. Committee Member Ledesma is absent this evening. Committee Member Lopez is also absent. Committee Member Gladson? Present. Thank you. Vice Chair McDermott? Here. Thank you. And Chair Farfan? Here. Excellent, thank you. I'd like the record to reflect we have a quorum this evening.

Thank you. Do we have any public comments that are not related to tonight's topics? Okay. We don't? Oh, we don't. Okay, perfect. What's that? Just for that, okay. Let's cover old business first, and then we'll go to, actually, 3.1. This is a request for adaptive reuse of two existing vacant buildings designed as contributors to the Old Town Historical District to accommodate a new restaurant with walk-up window service and full bar known as the Window Design Review Complex. Number 25-0025, continued from May 20th, 2026. The recommendation actions, approval of DRC, and with staff recommendations. Okay. Will there be a staff report?

Yes, thank you, Chair. Project Planner Alyssa Yurkovics will provide the staff report. Thank you. Alyssa?

Good evening, Chair and members of the Design Review Committee.

The item being presented tonight is design review number 25-0025 for the adaptive reuse of two vacant contributor buildings within the Old Town Historic District, located at 237 West Chapman Avenue, which is within the corner off of Chapman Avenue and Lemon, for a new outdoor restaurant and bar known as The Window. The project site is developed with a 1924 standard oil superstation. The site contains two one-story buildings. Building A, located at the rear of the site, originally functioned as the auto service building, while Building B at the front served as the filling station. The proposal would convert Building A into a kitchen and restroom area and Building B into a bar with a walk-up food service. The remainder of the site would function as outdoor dining and activity space. At the May 20th DRC meeting, the DRC provided the following direction to the applicant. One, to revise the plan to set to clarify the proposed roof modification for building A, including the mechanical screen design and visibility from the adjacent buildings. To also change the fence design and also provide a landscape buffer between the fence and the adjacent sidewalk. Additional landscapes were to refine the palette to incorporate more low water use planning materials, as well as to confirm the tree canopies and the umbrellas and fire pit elements do not spatially conflict with one another. Also to update the site plan to include the paver transitions to the entrances of the project site. And lastly, to add a project note clarifying that all proposed signage that are shown on the plans will be reviewed under a separate application, and this is not included with the project scope. Since the design review committee's review, the applicant has revised the plans and has addressed all recommendations and comments provided. Staff has reviewed the updated plans, and the project is consistent with the applicable design standards and complies with the city's development requirements and incorporates the direction provided that design review committee had provided. the project would redevelop an underutilized property and introduce improvements that are compatible with the character and the vision of Old Town. Based on staff's review, The project satisfies the required findings for approval. Therefore, staff recommends that the design review committee approve design review number 25-0025, subject to the conditions of approval included in the staff report, that the project is as presented. Thank you for your time, and that concludes the staff's presentation. Staff is available for any questions, especially in regards to the recommendations.

Thank you for the presentations. At this time, we'd like to open it up to public comments.

Good evening again. My name is Donnie DeWeese. I'm with Old Town Preservation Association. I'm also the principal and director of design at DeWeese Design over on Cypress, and I live up here on Almond Avenue. So I spoke on this two weeks ago, and though there's a lot of progress that has been made on the drawings, there still are some concerns. So if you guys have the same set there, I'm assuming you have what I had. The main big one is how the mechanical screen is not being shown correctly. So if you look at page seven, The mechanical screen, if you look at it and you're looking at Keynote 21 or 23, sorry, it's just being shown as a thin line across there and it's sort of set back from the roof. It's not what that mechanical screen's gonna look like. It's not gonna be a thin line like that. It's gonna be a panelized system or it's going to be, it's gonna be fluted metal that's painted. It's gonna have a vertical orientation or a horizontal orientation. It's gonna pick up the shadows. It's gonna be very prevalent and that needs to be shown And unfortunately, when you get to the renderings, if you go to page 15, we don't see any of that. We start to look at Streetside Chapman Elevation, or Building A South Elevation. We have an umbrella in front of it. If you look at the one that's in the upper left-hand corner, Streetside View from Chapman Avenue South Elevation, we have a willow tree in front of that, and you don't see it. The other thing is rotating branding sign is still being shown. I know there's a note on there that refers to that would be under a separate thing, but it's still on the plans, probably should be removed. The wall sections, being the largest drawing, have no vertical dimensions to it that correspond to the exterior elevations and sections to really track exactly what the height of that mechanical screen is. So the only statement we make is all drawings should be revised to show accurate information and Needs to be more information on the actual materials and construction colors of the mechanical screens that should be provided before the project is approved by the DRC would be our suggestion. Parking, I mentioned a few weeks ago. I'm still concerned about that. Looking at AB 2097, Hayden, you'll probably have to talk about the absence of any ADA parking, especially van accessible, is a huge issue. So that needs to be addressed. Overall design still feels a little heavy-handed. We're looking for it to be in and out of Orange Cal, that's in and of Orange, California. So to me it's either internally or externally consistent with historic design standards. So all we're looking for is what the design team, I'm going to direct my, direct to you, we're just looking for the same care and caution as and the architectural acumen on this project relative to the little buildings there that we got the same with Boscat and the references that it made to Rod's Liquor. That's the higher standard. Thank you. Thank you.

Hello.

Good evening, Chair and members of the DRC. As I stated at the last DRC meeting regarding this item, I'm still concerned about the proposed six-foot-high metal fence along Chapman. and Lemon. While I understand the applicant's desire to provide security and define the outdoor space, this style of fencing is out of character with the established character of the plaza district. No other six-foot fence exists along Chapman or Glassell and then one or 200 blocks of the plaza. The proposed fence creates a harder, more institutional appearance exacerbated by the height. I respectfully ask the committee to encourage the applicant to explore a design that's more compatible within this historic district And I've supplied some photos of existing establishments within the plaza district area that we feel is more compatible with the historic design. My second concern relates to landscaping. Because this property is located on a corner on a major corridor into the plaza, I would suggest that any landscaping installed near this intersection be maintained at a height that preserves the visibility for both drivers and pedestrians. Generally, plant material within the visibility triangle should not exceed 42 inches in height. Lastly, the proposed site plan shows the two trees on either side near the monument as existing and are to remain. However, the rendering does not show the trees or the monument. And this could be a simple oversight, but thought I should mention it. I'd like to address the proposed DG within the patio area once again. While it may be appropriate initially or compressed initially, I have concerns that foot traffic would carry the material beyond the patio and onto the adjacent sidewalks and streets, creating an ongoing maintenance issue and possible hazard. I would respectfully suggest that the committee consider a condition requiring staff to review the material after three to six months of operation. If the DG is found to be migrating beyond the patio area and creating maintenance concerns, an alternative ground cover should be required. This project occupies a prominent location, and I believe a few additional refinements to the fencing, landscaping, and ground treatment would go a long way toward creating a design that better reflects the character and charm of Old Town. Thank you.

Thank you. At this time, I'd like to see if the applicant would like to make a presentation. Not required, but it's up to the applicant. Yes. Thank you.

Apologies, I actually didn't prepare additional comments, but I do want to reinforce just a couple things about the restaurant. This is a community restaurant. With an incredibly egalitarian menu. We're well known in Los Angeles and Santa Barbara and Long Beach for being extraordinarily delicious and extraordinarily affordable. And we've diligently worked with each of the communities that we operate in. I think it's important for you to know that the moment we got back to our offices after our first meeting, we jumped right in making appropriate adjustments and taking the feedback that the committee provided and continue to seek your approval in good faith. I'd also like to point out we've spent a significant amount of money, almost a half a million dollars to get here. We intend to invest another four million dollars in the community because we want to do something that's special and worthy of the corner. I think the last thing that I'd like to share, perhaps we're being perceived as a company from Los Angeles, but that's not actually accurate. We have restaurants in Los Angeles, but we also have a really successful pizzeria in Stadium Promenade in Orange. We also have another pizzeria and a speakeasy in Costa Mesa, so Orange County is our home as well as Los Angeles. And that we're really excited because we're gonna get to provide employment and jobs for about 50 people within the community, both managers and hourly staff, so. We're here to collaborate with you and are actively participating, like I said, in good faith. But I do want you to know that being an upstanding member of the community and really serving the community is important to us. Thank you.

Thank you. At this time, does the committee have any questions to... the design team?

I do too, but go ahead. Oh, sorry. Yeah. I actually, I thank the applicant for for his comments, but I would actually like to hear from someone else on the team to discuss exactly what the changes were and why you made those changes. And honestly, I appreciate that the applicant is a good faith, good person, and everything. I'm really, we're only design. We only look at design. We don't look at how much money you spent or whether, you know, you're the best people ever. And so if you guys could just discuss the design changes, that would be helpful to me.

Hello.

Good evening, Chair, members of the Design Review Committee. Again, Jeff Rabbit with AO Architects locally here in Orange. We're working closely with Klein, who is the lead design on the project. I just wanted to thank you for your insights last two weeks ago. And we've taken that to heart and listened and made some changes that I think are improvements to the overall design of the project. some of which I think were already in process and an evolution of the drawing once engineering got involved. And so I'll go over a couple of those things. One being, I think, from the street view in, we've recessed the fencing in on the backside of the planter to sort of soften that edge. Klein has made a color decision change on that. The white that was sort of matching the building may have stood out a little bit too much, and the idea of going to green, that sort of blends with the landscaping a little bit better, helps make some transparency there. In addition to that, we've got some much wider openings that we've provided. These gates are operable. and would be open during business hours to allow a lot more visibility in from the sidewalk, from the street, from across the street, and adjacent properties, with the idea of just creating a more welcoming opportunity and losing sort of the cage around the entire space. We addressed the... the DG at the entry points, which I think was talked about last week, but in benefit to those that may not have been here, we've produced the plan to show that there is pavers at those locations to minimize the amount of dispersed DG. The owner is aware of the challenges that can come with DG, and he's familiar with it on other properties. So he's, you know, from a maintenance standpoint, willing to make sure that that, you know, does not become a hazard or a nuisance down the line. If you turn to page 10, You'll see, I'm gonna scoot back to building A. As I described last time, there was some discovery made with the double roof. We were not able to originally get into and above some of the ceiling space, but since that time we have, and discovered that we can lose the upper sloped roof that you see in a very thin dashed line there, as Alyssa's pointing out. And by eliminating that and going down to the original structure, what it does is it allows us to set the equipment much lower and in turn creating the roof screen to be significantly lower. And at this time, it protrudes about 18 inches above the existing parapet. We worked closely with HRG, which is our hired historic consultant that put together a, a fantastic report. It certainly was a lot of diligent effort for almost a year to ensure that we were keeping, in keeping with the significant An important architectural detailing of the existing buildings and all of that remains intact. This roof screen, of course, was a topic of discussion for many, many of those months. And obviously, you know, due to the change of use and in a rehabilitation situation. some things require some level of change, and Title 24 being one of them. In this case, with the restaurant, you've got grease and you've got equipment on the roof that then needs to be screened per city requirements. So by minimizing that screening, we've pulled it down significantly. It is not a corrugated screen. It is actually a panelized metal screen per the call-out, and that's intended to match what is happening out on building B, which is a metal panel building. Almost an early version of a kit building, essentially. So it isn't matching with that. Yes, there would be seams, but it would be tight seams and it would be hardly visible to the eye and it would be painted out to match the building. We explored an opportunity of matching the decorative cornice that you see around the two buildings at the top of that parapet, I'm sorry, at the top of the roof screen. And it just, what it started to do is it created more of a focal point. And rather than bring it forward, we decided to ease it back and let the building speak. ahead of it, so in the forefront. Let's see, I think there was a number of changes that were made on the landscape plan. We did include, of course, and I'll let Masha talk about that, but we did give some pictorial of what that plant material looks like. Would you like to speak to that?

Yeah, I think to that end, my name is Masha. I'm with Klein, with the design team behind us, who also WITH THE REST OF THE TEAM WORKED OVER A YEAR ON THIS PROJECT. BUT THE CONSULTATION THAT WE'VE DONE WITH THE LANDSCAPE DESIGNER AFTER OUR REVIEW LAST WEEK RESULTED IN BASICALLY FOCUSING ON what we bundle as a group three, so plantings that are kind of mid-size that were initially coming across as, you know, in your comments, maybe too tropical for the whole planting palette. We have looked at each of those individually. We pulled out three that were previously somewhat in a family of banana leaf plants and pulled that back. while we added in additional native plants into our fourth grouping which is the grouping that is lower lower level sub 42 inches and is what's heavily introduced into the very front of the line, which is now also planted in the front of the green fence. The idea about the fence, and we have studied those visuals and textures through multiple rounds even prior to introducing into you, was always kind of toying whether or not we would like to go green or should we go white with the fence, what does work better with the buildings. We have now turned it back to a green color fence that All we're trying to do is basically make it disappear into the plantings that are around it so that it is less visible to the eye while still giving operational needs that this business requires. Like it was said before, the entrance on the Chapman that goes straight to Building A has been enlarged. No more gate that swings open, but it is now a gate that slides to the side So you get a very direct visual view onto Building A during hours of operations, as well as in the Building B, that corner that we're seeing so visually directly onto an old gas station has been pulled open. And again, this kind of grouping of plantings from number four that's been populated with more native, more drought-tolerant plants is what's going to populate this rim here. We have looked again at the landscape plan and the landscape designer did readjust some of the positions of where the trees have been located. The shaded trees that you are seeing here on this kind of front line to building A have been repositioned over there. Some of the palms or smaller palm fronts have been pulled back. and a few more of the acacias have been introduced instead. All again with, you know, desire to work with the standards that Old Town Orange has and that our landscape designer has worked through the planning department's comments through multiple rounds to really get this planting palette dialed, but equally so, you know, understanding your concerns and working to create a palette that is welcoming and doesn't feel out of place. We're keeping, you know, all existing trees and palm trees as they are in place and kind of adding to it. I think that was on the landscape. No, we should be talking anything else.

I know that there were some comments about the spacing of some of the trees, some of the umbrellas and the heaters, and that's been reevaluated and looked at and manipulated. And you'll see that on the, I think it's the seating plan, which is just after the site plan. I think if you keep going up, Alyssa, it's right there. And so the spacing's taken place. And I know there was a comment about Title 24 in it. reassessed it with with our mechanical and plumbing engineer and there is no no issue with title 24 whatsoever because the purview of title 24 is interior condition space so California does allow for portable and fixed gas fixtures but it is of course under scrutiny of OC fire and making sure that clearances are met so and of course that's in review with the building department submittal

Perfect, please stand by. We might have some comments for you.

Chair, is the architect still at the microphone? Maybe he can hang out since I have a question and you might be able to answer a couple and your landscape architect too and staff. The setback of the fence, what is the actual dimension of that removing the fence back? What is it in terms of the linear, the actual dimension?

Sure. So on the front side, what we basically did was there was a little bit of a gap at the edge of the sidewalk to allow for the fence. And then the planter sat just behind that. What we did is we pushed that planter right to that edge of sidewalk, kept the same dimension, and then located the fence on the inside. So it's 18 inches on the south border on Chapman. And then on Lemon Street, it remains the two feet.

How many? 24 inches. 24 inches. Sorry. The microphone is not always picking you up. Yeah, I know. It's standing back, too. So, okay, I wanted to get that dimension. The mechanical screening that's been raised last time, and public speakers, too, Do we have a sample? So, or I mean, do we know exactly what it, I know you told us what it would look like, but how does it, what does it look like?

So we've done plenty of roof screening in the City of Orange on many other projects. And in this particular one, we've gone with a panelized metal system, like I explained, that would match Building B. I don't have a sample of it. It's not really an off-the-shelf proprietary material. It is something that will be crafted to match Building A.

Okay. I probably will have other questions, but this may not be you. It may be staff. And the historical assessment... I will jump a bit into the fact that it's a privilege to have the time to go through the assessment, the 108 pages. It answered a lot of my questions to have that time and to get through it. The image that's in our packet of the Texaco store, the Texas service station, where is that? That is not this particular location, right, staff? Is that just there for... for context of what an old gas station looks like, because it doesn't. But that's what I'm curious about, because there are design elements on that image that I don't think replicate, are not in this building. But that's what I wanted to get into the cultural side of it. Is that actually this service station?

I'm going to pull up the photo.

You might want to blow that up. There are actual documents that we obtained from the city. Oh, this particular one. Is that the one you're referring to?

Yeah, that's because it doesn't have a citation. So I don't know the source. Maybe the historic assessment team. I was just curious because I don't. I'm not an architect, other members of our team. The question I wanted to understand is there are elements on this building like the stars, the little Texaco stars up there. I don't think that those are openings or anything. Those are little details if they're still there. They're not, so they're essentially gone. But you're confident this is this building?

Yes, I mean, when you look at the fenestration the way it currently is shown, that's what we, you know, the openings are pretty, and the metal trim and the canopy is really essentially the same.

And having the two bays, because that's, I've never, again, I'm not privy to every historical photograph in the Orange Historical Library Resources Toolkit, but that's something I wanted to just... get an answer to, staff might be able to confirm. But it's helpful just because it's a theme that you drew from in terms of the design, right? And the color scheme. So that would be something to understand as we move forward.

And I know on sheet 00, there are a couple of historic pictures that came from the City of Orange.

What's that?

Sheet zero zero. It's the second sheet of the set And they were of course reference Design you know as we researched what the history so it's just another they're rather small, but Pictures of this building for sure

I mean, those look accurate, but the photo we just saw is not the same building. It's just a Texaco refabricated. This has got a shorter bay width, panels. The facade detailing didn't. Yeah, it's not the same. And that's okay. Yeah, and I know it's a different angle of it. It's not the same, but it's okay.

I'm not saying that that's necessarily a problem. an outstanding concern. It's just, it's an element of, we want to cite where it came from, if it is actually this location from a cultural standpoint, and that's separate from the historic preservation piece. But it's just a good question that I wanted to clarify. It didn't come up last time.

Didn't have time. But go ahead. I can speak on that in just a moment. I don't exactly know the source. I do think there was a number of we looked at a number of historic stations that were in this area or around Southern California from that time. And then it was a lot of back and forth with the historic consultant as to what are the elements that we see are consistent and we were encouraged to incorporate our you know, focus on even while we were looking at this particular site. Sure. But I'm pretty sure that we could get a source from Adam on that.

Yeah, because it's another layer of, this is a cultural question and I would suggest that it is the strength of what this particular applicant wants to do here is emulate some of the character of an old service station.

Yeah, believe me, we were looking at so many of those beautiful giant circular rotating steins that old gas stations had on. So we sure were looking at a number of different elements that all kind of carried through and agree with you. Yeah, it is a beautiful historic piece.

It's the part of the story of... Historic preservation and cultural significance is the story of the different layers. I can tell you which building downtown in the plaza belonged to the Gunther family because they built it. I can tell you the Kogler building. And it's really a cool piece of storytelling when you might be able to chase the genealogy that did like a family genealogy of who owned it first and second and third and be able to tell that story because that's part of the auto centered element of a gas station. So it's a kind of a fun play. And I think that's helpful to just put into the public record. The screening, I had a question in my last one, and I will let other committee members. Page 17 has image six, because I don't know what something inside the building is. And it's image G, I believe. Or it's... Yeah, gee, I'm not an architect, so I'll probably call the right term. That curved element inside, what is that? And I assume it has to go. Is this the bar? Isn't this building B?

That is, in fact, Building B. That is sort of in the cashier area, or at least that's what it used to be used for. And there is no evidence of what that curved soffit was for. I'll assume that there was likely a desk that matched that curve, but certainly well after construction. you know, and not included in any significant.

Because it has, interior things are a little bit more in play when you're dealing with changes to a building for rehabilitation. But am I correct that that does have to leave? Yes. Yeah. Okay. I just wanted to get that clarified too.

Thank you.

We're running out of time, so we'll start over here to the right. I'm going to move along. First of all, thank you for the submittal. You're a fantastic operator, by the way. I like your operations and product. I think it's a great addition to the City of Orange. This is a tough site, right? It has a lot of... Lots of people stare at it all the time and wonder what's going to happen. So the fact that you have something for us, thank you very much for it and all the efforts you're putting in. I think it's really important that you understand that. Years ago, I was a college student and I was hired by a developer. I was at the Gamble House and the Pasadena guy. And he said, I got a site and I want you to run this. And I'm like, I was in no position to do so. It was back in the 80s. And he goes, I got this corner site. We're trying to get through the city and end up being Twin Palms, which is, you know, Pasadena did the same thing. Gas station site, outdoor dining. In that case, the city allowed, you know, a solid wall to be built along the street. So I think your approach is very sensitive in that way. I was not here the last hearing. I apologize for that. But nonetheless, I just wanted to say first, thank you very much for what you're doing and how you're going about it. I did have some questions for you, and it might have been answered last week, but there's a wall that's behind the sink area in what you call Building A. Can you explain what that is? Is that a green wall? I apologize. I was trying to figure that out. That would be the wall behind the sink for the restrooms. It's like a partition. Keep going. Go to site plan number three, page three. So you see you've got that wall there between the sinks and that seating area. What is that? Just explain it to me. Maybe somebody can answer that before I'm just asking you.

I guess we're looking at where the restrooms are sitting. There's about four foot and a change of walkway to get to them. And then there is what we kind of call like a garden partition wall. Okay. And what is that? It's a CMU block wall, and we wanted to introduce it so that it feels like the restrooms still get a bit of privacy.

How high is that?

I believe it was set at six feet.

It's how high?

I believe it's at six feet, but we should have it in.

And is it shown in the renderings or not? It does. I apologize, guys. It's that one there?

Thank you.

Oh, it's that one. Thank you.

Thank you. On page 15, the upper right-hand corner on page 15, the wall says restrooms, and there's planting below. Is that what we're talking about?

That's actually the restroom building, and then you turn a corner, and then there's a wall to it. I don't think you see it on the visuals, but I can see it where it's on there.

So as an element against that building, I was just, I didn't know if it had been discussed before, I'm just looking at it thinking that it kind of, I know you're modifying that building itself for the restrooms itself, but that's just a block wall, is that right?

That's correct, yes.

Okay. It's not landscaped, it's just a block wall. There's some planter in front of it, but I'd like to understand more about that. Maybe my colleagues have comments about that. Is it treated like the enclosure of this utility, kind of trash area? Is it the same?

It is matching that. It's matching that.

So an element matches that as a piece. Got it. Correct. And again, I apologize. And then that wall comes across here to the opening that has that service area. Okay. And we heard the sign is not included. Lighting. Again, I wasn't here for the presentation, but I did have some questions about if you could explain how the lighting works. I see string lights. I see, you know, down lights. And then in this package that we received, these types of hanging lamps.

Correct.

Are those interior? Those are semi-outdoor? What are those?

They're basically semi-outdoors.

Semi-outdoors, okay. And then, I assume you're going with white?

We're going with white. We're going with 2700K.

And then you have the wall packs, right? And the wall packs go around, I was locating them around the bathrooms I saw for sure, and then around the building itself. But I didn't see a lot of wall packs. Am I wrong on that?

No, that's correct.

Okay. Not a lot. And then you have up lights on trees.

Correct.

Okay. I think I figured out. What is this lamp? Is this in overhangs and soffits?

This is a recessed. It's an interior fixture.

It's an interior fixture. Okay. Thank you. And then you got the tree lights. Got that. So, you know, one of the issues, and I heard people talking about umbrellas, but there was a picture just handed around by a resident, and it shows, right, it shows the filling station. And so the bar, which is really cool. I like this location, how you have the bar stools along there. That's the afternoon sun. That's going to come and just hit that. The bartender's going to be mixing drinks and looking into the sun. What's the solar protection on that? Because the filling station just basically packs up umbrellas on that site. Is there a plan about what you're doing as far as the impact, the solar impact to that, and how it affects that edge of the year? operations?

I don't think the intention was ever to pack it with umbrellas so that we would lose sight of what actually is going on in the station, right? And we do have a really long canopy in front of where the bar starts that is going to be populated and activated, right? And then you have kind of planting around that sort of under the canopy adjacent to the bar area that we do feel is gonna be active with people coming in. It's also where we're gonna be guiding people to enter into the property and kind of line up, I guess, if you will, if they want to order at the bar. So it hasn't been an intention to pack it with umbrellas. At this point, also, just to prevent any issues, all umbrellas and heaters on site, on the main site, are going to be fixed. So we're not trying to have people move around umbrellas and block the site.

So they're fixed elements.

Fixed elements. Thank you very much. It is only in the passage where it guides you to the window, which is that kind of long passage where you see the window ordering bar at Building A, that umbrellas remain movable. And it's mostly because they have a bit larger canopy and because we are trying to make sure that we kind of understand how people are going to end up sitting there. So it's that kind of line that goes to the Building A. That's the only one that has movable umbrellas. Everything else remains fixed.

Okay, I'm sorry. Building A... Building A has movable umbrellas. I'm sorry, where was that?

That front line that goes directly to it. From Chapman up to Building A. Oh, got you.

Thank you.

So those four are considered larger in diameter and movable. We want to make sure that groupings there are able to kind of get the shade they need. But the rest, we want it fixed. I don't think there's been an, you know, it is, we are heating up the open patio. We have umbrellas. We don't want any issues there. And so, you know, if a bartender is going to have a problem with glare, they'll wear sunglasses.

Mechanical screening has been an issue. So have you done any line of sight, you know, simple line of sight approaches to give us an idea of, I mean, it would be beneficial, I'm making this up, if you were to say so much is visible of that element from, say, across the street or from, you know, if I'm sitting across the street and I look, What do we see? That would be courteous. Yeah, sure. To understand how much of a profile, because of the step back, is actually visible. It's a pretty traditional request. Have you done that study?

We have done that. And we have actually, as a team, been elated when we figured out that what's going on in a roof actually allows us to drop down the mechanical equipment a bit further down where we initially thought it's going to be landing and protruding out. So everybody was in the exploration when the mechanical engineer was involved, when structural engineer was involved. And Jeff can speak to that, too. Was really happy with adjustments that we were able to do as to where exactly the equipment sits.

I'm going to cut you off for time. But just help me out. When you did those analysis, and I'll believe you, and you stood across the street or you did your line of sight from a certain point, how much of that screen was visible at an angle? Did you keep that in your mind's eye in any way?

I mean, when we were in 3D model testing it out, when we were entering on Chapman, we were seeing, you know, a sliver of it.

Yeah, fine sliver. Six inches? A foot? Less than a foot. Compelling. Okay. That's all. I'll move on. But again, thank you very much. Really nice project. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Thank you. I also am delighted to see that this piece of property that's been sort of forlorn on the corner there is going to have some new life breathed into it. And I'm very excited for The refurbishment of those buildings, the old gas stations, at least in Orange County, but throughout Southern California are becoming more and more rare. So we have a couple treasures here in town, and it's nice to see that this one's going to get a nice sort of refresh to it. So if I understand correctly, that material for the mechanical screening, it's basically going to look like sheet metal painted white. Is that a fair description generally of what it looks like?

Yeah, if we're saying sheet metal, yes.

Sheet metal, okay. And a question for staff. I noticed a condition in the staff report that said the decomposed granite would be, I don't remember the exact wording, but minimized to the maximum extent practicable. What does that really mean? Because they've obviously got a precise plan here approved that... lets them use DG. So what does that condition mean in practice?

So that condition is, I think, an example of the language that we were talking about at the initial submittal and forwarding of this project to the DRC. It was designed to remove the likelihood of tracking off-site, as that had been identified as an issue. Obviously, this is a food service operation. There may be either vector or grease issues potentially. So it was along those lines and added as a condition for CONSIDERATION IN THE CONTEXT OF THE SITE. SINCE THE MAY 20TH MEETING, THERE HAVE BEEN A FEW ITERATIONS, THERE HAVE BEEN SOME MODIFICATIONS. THE APPLICANT IS NOW VOLUNTARILY INCREASING THE AMOUNT OF NON-DG AREAS IN THE HIGH TRAFFIC AREAS, SPECIFICALLY IN RESPONSE TO THAT CONCERN FROM BOTH STAFF AND THE DRC. AND WE BELIEVE TONIGHT THAT THEY'VE DONE SO TO A MAXIMUM EXTENT FEASIBLE. BUT AGAIN, WE LEAVE THAT UP FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION.

Great, thank you. I like the change in the fence. I like it being pulled away from back of sidewalk. And I think that was a very novel idea to put that gate there right at the edge of building B, the canopy that approaches the sidewalk there. So it looks like on the plans that those plants are in pots, but I don't see that shown in the rendering. Could you clarify whether they're in pots or not in pots?

So the only area that plants will be potted will be around a canopy. And that was a requirement, I believe, from the planning department at the time. It was back and forth. We wanted them all potted and ground. And this was the one section that was requested stays as potted plants. So the plant material won't change. But if you go to the landscape plan, we can see where that outline is of the potted plants. So the perimeter still gets planted in ground.

Oh, it does. OK. Correct. The only hiccup in that is that people see this as an open way to walk, and as we've seen in parking lots and other kinds of landscaped areas around buildings, people just walk where they think they can and trample the plants. is a minor issue, but probably more on the maintenance end. We are limited for time today, so I will go on to suggest a couple of conditions. One is a standard one that we use in Old Town, which is the temperature of any outdoor lighting would be limited to 3,000 Kelvin and a condition that trees are maintained. Well, I think you only have, you don't just have palm trees, right? You have other trees.

Correct.

That they be maintained to their full height and canopy except as needed for public safety. And with that, I would be able to support the findings that are in the staff report. And... make this dream come true. Thank you.

Thank you, Vice Chair.

Thank you. So I have a couple of comments and some questions. First, I'd like to say that with a little extra time and some research I did go here, and I ate many of these things. I went to the window in Long Beach, and I saw the operation, and I totally get it. I think it was fun. I brought my husband. He enjoyed it, too. And I think it's, as I said before, I think that's a really good adaptive reuse. However, I have a few questions. In the new plan, you have called out the fence as being painted green belt green, but on your branding palette, you have five colors of green, one of gray, one of red, and one of peach. Which one is green belt green, if any of those are green belt green?

So if only life would be so easy that all manufacturers of all furniture and tile and wall paint and all of it would give me the same color, I would be thrilled. But they don't. So it ends up being a branding palette that the window has on multiple other locations, has shades of green. And we have kind of come to that because in instances where they do have an indoor, there's a tile and doll tile that is present in kind of a checkered pattern that we don't have on this project has led us to pick. matching green belt green color, which we feel like is very much a brand color now. But that said, our furniture comes in this green color. Which one?

Is that one of these?

Yes, correct. So it is a shade, you know, we have maybe like represented four to five shades of green that all end up being this deeper, darker green color. If you would be in my world, they would all be the same, but it's just not a reality.

But which one is the green belt green?

Like physically, it's right here, how it's presented on that paper.

Which as compared to these? I can show you. Okay, because there are five greens. It's the second one down. The second on the right-hand side? Correct. So in the middle. On the far right-hand side, the one that's in the middle on the way down, that's Greenbelt Green?

Yes, correct. Okay. Where the arrow is? Okay, so. The staff can note that.

Then let me ask you. because, and I'll tell you why I'm asking this question, the color, the fences is a backdrop to planting material. And in many gardens, one where I actually, a volunteer down in Coronado del Mar, they have all of their pergolas and shade houses and everything. Because it's a garden to showcase the plant material, they use a color that is a sort of sage green. It's a neutral that does not come forward. It is a backdrop color. But you have chosen a color that is very prominent. up against green things. You know what I'm saying? So how did you arrive at that? And don't tell me because it matches the tile.

No, honestly, because we're working with a brand, with a restaurant that does have a narrative and prisons in all other locations. And we are tracking their green color on the buildings themselves. So we are trying to make the whole project feel like... Matchy-matchy? It is of one nature, right? I'm sure we can be open with a team to discuss what exact shade of green is if the committee insists that we change the green color. But how we arrive to it is in a fact that we do look at all the greens that we have, including our green planting palette, and say this one that is very prominent in all other locations and it is established as a brand identifier. matches really well with all the greenery that's going to be going on in front of it and around it, let's do that as a fence. That's how we arrived to it.

Where are you using the gray color?

I think you see it on your menu. It's an outline of their lettering. It's part of their branding package.

I think there's green and red and rose on the menu. But, okay.

It is not architecturally applied.

It's not architecturally applied. No. Okay. Now, moving on to the other colors, I noticed in the new packet, which wasn't before, that you are using the rose motif on this project as well. You didn't have it before.

on our visuals that we did not change.

No, it's on the building, I mean. You're showing it on the building, which you didn't have that before.

So, yes, we are applying. So there's no branding on the building.

I just want to say that we are kind of short on time, respectfully. And I know the color we can maybe.

Yeah, but to interject, that meeting starts at 730. So we should continue because we can get there. Because how are you going to. How are you going to move us forward if we still are not there?

Good evening. Chair and committee members, that is true. We do have a city council meeting tonight that's also scheduled in this room at 7.30. The public is scheduled to come in with the doors to be open around seven. And the city clerk is requesting to be in here about... 20 minutes prior to that to set up the room for the council meeting and that's why we're short on time. So we probably have about five or 10 minutes to probably. So what is the time? Is it 6.30? Yeah, 6.30 would probably be the limit that we would, maybe 6.35. 6.40 the latest. 6.40 the latest, but coming up in the next few minutes, we'd be looking for some type of a vote from the committee members to move this project.

Yeah.

It doesn't really give us a lot of time to discuss what we're here to discuss. I will just quickly say that I think that the green color of the fence should relate to the planting and not the buildings. And I think a more subtle green or a gray color would be more compatible with the plantings. But I'm going to look to my, to Chair Farfian. I'm sorry, go ahead.

Would you mind sharing the reference point in Corona Del Mar? Let me take a look at it.

You know what? It's under construction right now, but it's Sherman Gardens.

Okay.

Okay.

Would my colleagues be comfortable if we maybe either did a condition that asked for a less vibrant hue of green for the fence. Or pick one of these other greens that are shown on the sample color palette and make a condition about another color.

I don't know if I'm being asked, but we'd be in favor of that, of course.

I'm trying to get us to the finish line here.

My comments are brief, and I don't think I have a question, so you have a seat. I appreciate you updating the plant material. I looked at all the plant material. The plant material is lower and smaller stature. One recommendation, I'm going to say the Molenbergia you picked is the typical one. It's the larger one. And you have a narrow planting area. So maybe do like a hybrid, like a pink moly or something like that. But overall, the planting is great. I like how you move the fence, 18 inches and 24 on Lemon Street. I also liked how you move the umbrellas and the heaters and they're not overlapping. You did show the paving. You didn't show the color of the paving, but I did look it up. It was somewhere in the legend and it's a tan color and I think that color is great. For me, with the conditions that were mentioned today, the three, I'm in favor of this project and I'd like to open it to the committee and see if they have any additional conditions or comments and we can move on with hopefully a motion.

Chair Farfan, I too can support the project primarily because of the findings that we make, particularly findings one, two, and three. I think finding four isn't applicable because it's not a residential site. But the historic assessment is critical for me in making the findings. facts that I need to make those findings stick. So I support it. I would just, I like the recommended conditions that we could give the flexibility. We could even encourage our staff to take a look at the final Details before CFO related to the color, related to the screening, particularly as committee member Gross, I concur that we want to see the least amount of it, but I think the applicant's aware of that. I do think they would be smart, and this is more of a suggestion, not a condition, to really delve into the cultural story. This is a Texaco kind of color green. I was a little bit bothered by the green primarily because of the... First fence was white, and I like the green better than the white. But I got comfortable with this color palette when I looked at the historical colors of this type of service station. So I'm like, hey, that's a theme to... go for and use that red and take some of those elements and so take the cultural story and convey that because I can tell you as a past a past a docent for many a home tour many a walking tour people want to know the story of a building and they come back and they want to tell it again again so I would throw that as more of a suggestion but I think we're going to a good direction and I too can make the sequel findings and all of the other findings required in our purview so this is and i'm i'm pleased that the applicant like you all said is taking this time and quickly turn this around uh... i noticed all the details i've already kind of said this but I could tell the story of what they were doing in each of these buildings and what they were going to fix, repair that metal piece when I read the assessment. And that's a long document. I needed the time. So I really appreciate that. And it is part of the package of the approval. All of those documents are what staff will rely on. So yes, that's where I'm at. Thank you. Appreciate any additional comments.

With that, I'm prepared to make a motion, Mr. Chair, to approve design review number 25-0025 with the findings and conditions in the staff report, including the conditions recommended by staff. In addition, the following conditions, that all outdoor lighting temperature not exceed 3,000 Kelvin. Another that is the color of the perimeter fencing be a more subdued, less bright hue of green, subject to staff approval, a green such as sage green, subject to staff approval before issuance of certificate of occupancy, and that all, third condition, that all trees be maintained to their full height and canopy except as pruning needed for public safety. Second.

Okay. I second. We have a second. Please vote. Okay. Congratulations. Yes. Thank you. Appreciate it. All right. Thank you. That concludes our meeting today. The next design review committee will be Wednesday, June 17th at 5.30 p.m. in this council chamber. Thank you. Appreciate your time.