Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

It is 4:01 on December 22nd. We'll go ahead and call this meeting to order. I'll do roll call planning commission numbers. Joey Edwards here. Steve Stevens I said I think can't be here. Jason Rupo here. David J. You're muted. And then Ryan Hill. I am here. Okay, great. Thank you. Um county commissioners, Commissioner Tharp. here. Commissioner Lee, Commissioner Walk here. Any changes or additions to the agenda?

Okay, we have minutes to approve September 8th, November 24th, and December 8th. They were sent out with the staff packet. Did everybody have a chance to review those? Can I approve the vote at one time? Yep. Edwards moves to approve previous minutes. I second. All in favor? I I Hey. Um, any updates from staff tonight?

Um, Ann is online um with us tonight. Just to point that out. At the moment, I was saying we don't have anything scheduled in January. So, for January 12th, we don't have time to notice anything. So, I'm pretty confident that we won't have a hearing that night. Um, we'll probably need to follow up and see if there's any study session that we need, but we haven't identified that. So, and then the later one in January, we'll keep you posted on that. So, Ann, is there anything you want to add? Yeah. Oh, we can't hear you. Now we can. Oh,

no. Oh, it's like a every third sound.

Oh, okay. I was just going to mention that I do think we're going to want a work session on commercial lodging in January and um we are fully seated with only one alternate available on the planning commission. So, that vacancy has been advertised on the website. So, if you have any interested community members that are a resident of Lake County, um please send them our direction, but we are fully seated um with just one vacancy um to start the new year off. Our meeting in January, we'll be looking to uh do a work session on commercial lodging as well as elect officers for 2026. Um I think the only other I wanted to mention and I think that Melissa's probably brought for your signature is we do need to capture um written signatures on youration to the board commissioners on last

we lost you again and you might turn your video off and we'll be able to hear you probably.

Now we have no idea if you're talking. No luck. Now we can't limp it. Okay. No luck. That didn't work, man. But we did get the majority of what you said. Um, and we do have Melissa did bring the resolution here for us to sign. So, I think we got that. If there's anything additional you need, just

maybe shoot us a text or something and we can read it. Okay, good. Um, all right. I'm going move us down to new business. We have file 25-41 and 48, which is the Sugarloaf Mountain Ranch backcountry CUP and site plan. The Lake County Planning Commission and the Board of County Commissioners will now conduct a joint public hearing. This statement I'm reading shall be incorporated into and made part of the record on these proceedings. The planning commission and the board of county commissioners have jurisdiction to conduct a joint public hearing on a conditional use permit application under section 3.6.1 of the Wake County Land Development Code. And simultaneously, the planning commission will open the site plan review pursuant to section 5.2.27.1. The purpose of this hearing is to consider whether the conditional use permit application and the site plan review should be approved. In considering that matter, the commission will address the approval criteria set forth in sections 3.6.1.f. F and 5.2.27.1D of the Lake County Land Development Code. The procedure to be followed in this hearing will be one, members of the commission and the board will disclose any exparte communications. Two, county staff will make any an initial presentation. Three, the applicant may then make their presentation. Four, after that, any other persons either supporting or opposing the application may present evidence. Five, supporting and opposing witnesses may be questioned by the commission and the board. Once questioning is concluded, no further questioning is permitted unless granted by the chair. Six, the applicant may then make any rebuttal evidence. The parties and witnesses are asked not to submit redundant, irrelevant, or cumulative evidence. If someone has already made the point that you wish to make, please simply say so. The chair will also require that all comments be made to the planning commission and the board and that there be no dialogue between the applicant and members of the audience. At the conclusion of the evidentiary portion of the hearing, the chair will entertain a motion to close

the evidentary portion of the hearing and the commission will discuss and weigh the evidence. Then there will be a motion to close the discussion phase for joint public hearing. The board of county commissioners will then leave the meeting and the chair of the planning commission will entertain a motion on the application. The motion may take the form of one of the following recommendations. One, approve the application with no conditions. Two, approve the application with recommended conditions. Three, approve the application with newly identified conditions. or four, deny the application. The planning director shall make a record any of any substantial discussion on the motion and include that in the record with the recommendation of the commission. The commission's recommendation will be in the form of a statement of motion. Are there any objections to the jurisdiction of the commission or to the form or substance of these proceedings? Hearing none, I'll now ask each planning commissioner member and then each county commissioner if you've got any exparte communications to disclose and if so, please disclose them now. Joey Edwards.

Um, Jason Maruo. Um, I had a question from someone in the public, but I can't remember which file it was regarding, but it doesn't sound familiar for this particular one. So, I'm going to say no. But if it sounds familiar, can I bring it up at that time? Mhm. Yeah. Okay. Is that I'm seeing lots of heads nod. Yes. Okay. All right. So, no for now. David Jurich. No. Okay. Ryan Hill, no. Okay. Heather Lynn, no. Um, Commissioner Tharp,

none. Commissioner Lee, none. Commissioner Bulock, none. Great. Okay, Steph, can you start your presentation? Thank you. So the applicant is here tonight. He's online. So I will make a presentation. Yeah. And then he'll be available to make any comments or answer any questions. So the first one, and these are both similar in that they're cups with uh site plans because they're in the back country. So

can go forward. Yeah. Okay. So the applicant is Tim Castello and he has an application on two mining claims that are about 20.6 acres in size, but it's embedded within 875 acres. So, he's got a large land holding up in this area. The location is you can see the address, but that's what you see on the right hand side of that screen is Turquoise Lake. So, he's on the west side of Turquoise Lake. The property is zone back country and what we have is kind of a unique situation. Um, but we it's a conditional use for basic utility and we'll go into that a little bit. So, you can go forward. The site plan is for three agricultural structures. You kind of see um four circles, but the dotted ones are where the three structures uh will be located in the future. It's part of the Colorado Colorado State Forest Service agricultural program. And so this has a lot to do with fire mitigation and forest health. And so the purpose of the application are for the these structures to help manage that um program over time. So the shops are to hold vehicles. There is a um break room and a bathroom that are proposed in one of the sites, the 70x 70 foot structure that you can see there. That's the likely one to be built first. And again, it's to get if you look on Google Earth right now, there's there's equipment sitting out in the open. And the idea is to get that under under a roof. Um there are no known geologic or mining hazards. There's evidence that a shaft got closed properly through um the division of of mining. So that was remediated. You can

go to the next the our zoning administrator which is Ann Schneider made an interpretation because this is kind of a unique situation. Um but based upon the fact that this is really a health and safety issue for our natural environment. Um we're considering this a sort of a basic utility under our zoning and so that requires a conditional use permit. So that's how we got here. we can move forward. So the approval criteria for the cup have this should be very familiar to all of you but consistency with our comp plan. I won't read all of these. You got to read the staff report but again this is really about our natural environment um our forest health and good maintenance for our fire mitigation plans in an area that's a very large forest. So this is what we believe to be a really important project. Um it does it has minimal impact in terms of even the traffic mitigation here. It this is actually an ongoing project. It's not new. Um there's a new grant which is extending the work that's getting done up there. And so um based upon that they've needed sort of more infrastructure terms of this barn to help house the equipment. So, you know, we haven't had we didn't even probably know what was going on. So, the impact on the adjacent road network is really minimal. Tim can speak to this, but a lot of the the timber that gets cut either gets mulched and states stays on site or it gets dispersed on site. If it's like un unhealthy stuff, the stuff that's pretty viable will get um hauled off and uh taken to market. So that that impact on the road network is is not

significant um in our experience or understanding. So obviously this is seasonal. It's more summer months when it's warm and dry where they can do this kind of work. So I think that's the the coop approval criteria. The next screen speaks to our kind of backcountry site plan. Again I spoke to the comp plan. It conforms with our code. The application does some mineral requirements were proper. Um we believe that the harmony is probably mostly to the natural environment and I mentioned that that mine shaft that was closed um properly. So we believe that this application meets the approval criteria. So the next screen would be uh the two conditions of approval. the compliance with Lake County Fire Rescue and um any other statements that sort of get made tonight that need to be um tracked. Um the the fire district did request water storage for um in case of a fire. So at the time of a building permit, it'll be a requirement. You know, they'll work together. It's not they're not really required to do it. They offered it. Tim offered it and the fire marshall took him up on that. So, we'll get that done at at the appropriate time. So, based on these two conditions, we're recommending as favorable to you all. And as Yeah. Yeah. This is an application that the cup goes to the board. The site plan does not. So, it's a little bit of a dual application. So I can answer any questions and Tim is here to do the same.

Great. Thank you. Um can we switch to the just um Tim did you have anything you wanted to add to Melissa's presentation? Um you're muted.

There we go. Can you hear me now? Yes.

Okay. Um the only thing I'd add is uh you know the county cell phone towers and the uh water management uh system and the early warning fire detection system are all up on the ranch on the property. And there's a lot of mine mitigation activity that occurs. Um and that's really that that's added to the forestry piece and that I have to maintain the roads in order to maintain access to all of those things. And that's why the equipment's up there. So, you know, I have to do it for the forest a program, but we've got the cell towers and the early fire warning system and the wireless uh towers for the the county and everything else up there. And right now, all my equipment just sits outside and it's just getting destroyed. And I spend more time maintaining it than than I do using it now because it sits outside all the all year long. So, I really got to get it covered up. I thank you for help and getting my equipment covered up.

Great. Thank you. Uh, county commissioners or planning commission, anybody have any questions for Melissa or the applicant? I have none. No, thank you. Okay. No questions here. Thanks. Okay. David, I see you maybe unmuted. Did you have any I have no no questions. Okay. All right. And we would have two separate

motions on this because of the Yeah. Um are there any um members of the public that have any comments or questions on this file? Nope. Okay. Um, does anybody want to make a motion to close the public hearing portion of this file? I move to close the public portion hearing of this file. 30 seconds. In favor? Hi. Hi.

Um, do we want to skip discussion in motion so that we can keep the commissioners in the room and then we can discuss them in motion on both of them at the end? Okay. You're probably going to discuss all that. Yep. Yeah, I think we can. Yeah. Everybody feel good about that?

Okay. Um, so what we'll do is, uh, we're going to open up while the commissioners can stay in the room for public hearing portions, they don't stay in the room for deliberation. So, we're going to move us to file 25-42 and 43, which is the Rose Hut and Peggy's Funk House group camp and CUP and by backcountry site plan. Then we will come back once we close that public hearing and the commissioners exit the meeting, we will come back and um, work through our motions and discussions. I get to read this opening statement again though. I think the the Lakeland County Planning Commission and the Board of County Commissioners will now conduct a joint public hearing. This statement I'm reading shall be incorporated into and made part of the record on these proceedings. The planning commission and the board of county commissioners have jurisdiction to conduct a joint public hearing on a conditional use permit application under section 3.61 of the Lake County Land Development Code. And simultaneously, the planning commission will open the site plan review pursuant to section 5.2. 2.27.1. The purpose of this hearing is to consider whether the conditional use permit application and site plan review should be approved. In considering that matter, the commission will address the approval criteria set forth in sections 3.6.1F and 5.2.27.1D of the Lake County Land Development Code. Procedure to be followed will be members of the commission and board will disclose any exparte communications. County staff will make their initial presentation. The applicant may then make their presentation. After that, any other persons either supporting or opposing the application may present evidence. Supporting and opposing witnesses may be questioned by the commission in the board. Once questioning is concluded, no further questioning is permitted unless granted by the chair. And six, the applicant may then re I'm sorry, the applicant may then present any rebuttal evidence. The parties and witnesses are asked not to submit redundant, irrelevant, or cumulative evidence. If someone has already made the point that you wish to make, please simply say so. The chair will also require that all comments be

made to the planning commission and the board. There be no dialogue between the applicant and members of the audience. At the conclusion of the evidentiary portion of the hearing, the chair will entertain a motion to close the evidentiary portion of the hearing and the commission will discuss and weigh the evidence. Then there will be a motion to close the discussion phase of the joint public hearing. The board of county commissioners will leave the meeting meeting and the chair of the planning commission will entertain a motion on the application. The motion may take the form of one of the following recommendations. One, approve the application with no conditions. Two, approve the application with recommended conditions. Three, approve the application with newly identified conditions. Or four, deny the application. The planning director shall make a record of any substantial discussion on the motion and include that in the record with the recommendation of the commission. The commission's recommendation will be in the form of a statement of motion. Are there any objections to the jurisdiction of the commission or to the form or substance of these proceedings? Let's see. Hearing none, I will now ask each planning commission member and then each county commissioner if you have any exparte communications to disclose and if so to please disclose them now.

Joey Edwards, Jason Muro, I think this might be the one. Okay. Um, so I received questions from someone in the public at a during a Christmas party regarding the zoning of this particular application. I said I don't know to pretty much all the answers or to all the questions. But there were questions around tax zoning and why is this okay or not okay?

Do you believe you can declare yourself impartial? I think so because I can barely remember what um exactly all the questions are, but I someone did when they when they found out I was on the planning commission then started asking questions and I said I don't even know which CUP you're talking about. Um yeah, if you're just say I can't talk to you about it anyway. Call staff. Okay. And then that way they don't keep. But I was going to leave that up to you guys to determine. I mean, it doesn't matter.

No, it would be if you felt like you had obtained information outside of this hearing that would give you any opinions on how to move forward with the your voting on this application. Um, I I don't think so. The only thing my concern is I remember they kept saying it was regarding agricultural zoning but when I'm seeing this it's back country zoning. So I don't know if maybe still this isn't the one but they might say it was this particular meeting and I said well I didn't even know we had a meeting

because I thought we were off till January. stand the standard to meet is do you believe you can be impartial or that you disclose it? Yeah, I think I can be impartial. Okay. Um David Church, none. Ryan Hill, none. Heather Lynn, none. Uh Commissioner Tharp, none. Commissioner Lee, none. Commissioner Bulock.

Okay, Jeff. Thank you. So, this is the Rose Hunt and Peggy's Oakhouse application. We have the applicants here and their baby. So, um they'll be available to answer any questions. So, this property is on a mining claim. 10.3 acres. It's located up county road 6B and the property is zoned back country and they're requesting a group camp which is why we have a conditional use permit application as well as a backcountry site plan. You can kind of see where it's located on this map. Go ahead. So, the proposal is to utilize existing structures for overnight stays. And these are pictures of those structures. The applicant's going to speak a little bit to why there are existing structures um as part of his presentation. But the Rose Huta is habitable at this point, the ones on top. Um the Peggy's bunk house is going to require some additional work in order for it to be utilized. Um, so these structures were never given CEOs. So essentially what we're doing is bringing them into compliance. Um, I think they preceded our zoning regulations for that country. So that's kind of how we got here. So both structures can accommodate from six to eight guests. We're talking about maybe 12 to 16 people. So in this case, we're saying 16 people um as as part of this boot camp. So, moving forward, this is the site plan. Little challenging to read, but you kind of get the idea of how the the the structures

are laid out. The Rosa is on the lower end, and the Peggy's bunk house is up higher on this uh mining claim. it. They will include freestanding um solar panel, you know, panels in order to provide electric power um as well as a generator for this uh site. There's a propane furnace for baseline heating as well as wood burning stoves to help heat the the

the cabins. Um water will be carried in so no water is provided on site and the waste water was approved. the composting toilets on November 18th. So, they got through the variance process for those. Next slide. It is um part of its value is the wildlife that's in this area. It's what's defined as disturbed higher scoring. So, you can see that blue swath and I put that checklist on the right hand side. So there's lots of wildlife that migrate through this area and there are recommendations through Colorado Parks and Wildlife that certainly we're we're sort of continuing with our backcountry structures as a standing conditional use permit so that people are good stewards of the land. So you can go forward. Again, this cup approval criteria. Um this is we believe it's consistent with the comprehensive plan. Um it's really what the back country was intended to a real light touch um off-rid and um using existing structures that are already there. So the impact is really minimal minimal on the roads network. Um again the the like what self-propelled I like that term means people walk and snowshoe and you know get themselves to these huts by and large. Um so we do believe it's in harmony with their surrounding neighbors and and the land again that real minimal touch on the land so that it's not seen it's not I think going to be experienced as an intensive use in any way. pretty quiet. Um there's a generator that does emanate noise, but that's in a in one of the sheds that is insulated and it's um 150

ft from I think the property boundary. So I don't think anyone's going to hear that. So um I think that's is that's enough for the cup approval criteria. Next slide is a back country again um conforms with our code. We've received all the metal requirements that we need. Um and we're not aware of any man-made hazards. There's no mining um subsistence or anything like that that are that have been left on the land. So we believe that meets the approval criteria for the site plan. So based upon that we have next slide some conditions of approval that need a permit from public works for the parking on the county road. The occupancy is limited to 180 days per year. That's for their variance. Um the approved variance. These are the kind of these running um conditions for living in this environment. The reveation of disturbed soils. best practices living with wildlife um and and compliance with the like uh fire district facilities for trash. So again living with the wildlife in the area. So and then any other statements that are um made tonight that we need to track. So a lot of these are pretty standard as we're seeing in our back country structures. So with that, we are recommending it favorably with these conditions of approval. And again, Carter Shaver is here to answer any questions or or to and to be able to speak on behalf of the application.

Yeah. If you have uh your own presentation or anything additional you want to add.

Yeah, I just want to say a few words. Thanks for the opportunity and thanks Melissa for putting this together. Uh my name is Carter Shaver. I'm the applicant owner of the Rose and Peggy's back bunk house. Um, my wife and I, Kate, she just, uh, we just welcomed our baby boy, our first child, into the world this past September. So, we're navigating some new challenges ourselves. Um, Kate's a real estate agent in town. I'm a contractor and hopefully little Conrad's a future Nordic ski racer here at Lake County. So, that's our hope. Um, Melissa covered a lot of technical details. I'll fill in some of the blanks as we go. Um, I really wanted to focus on who we are and why we want to do this and what brings us to this point today. Uh, and that starts with our background. So, I grew up in Southwest Ohio, single mother, my brother and I, we've got fond memories of going to our family reunion. My grandma was one of 18. So, it's kind of a unique experience to have 150 of your closest relatives every year. Um, super unique for my grandma because um, she always had one place to call home and we all do because that property is still in the family and that's our home place. And I was always inspired to have something similar for my family. And now I've got this, you know, little boy here that we can hopefully pass all these properties down the generations, right? Um, and no matter where our family is in the world, we have a place to call home. And that's what's inspired me to be a purchase these properties and provide this opportunity. And Kate grew up outside of Houston. She's at the Colorado School of Mines. and she spent her summers up in Canada where her grandfather built an off-grid cabin which is kind of inspired how we're living off grid on Long and Dairy cuz we've lived on Long and Dairy for the last 5 years. We're right down the road. Uh we snowmobile in in the winter. We chop wood to prepare for the next winter and the summer uh because it's winter often, right? Um, and her grandpa started up this summer canoe tripping camp that Kate would go and spend three to six weeks at in summers. And that

inspired her love for nature, her sense of adventure, sense of independence. And she's hoping to inspire that and others with the rose hut and bunk house as well. And now as adults, you know, we spent a lot of time in the back country. We've done a lot of these backcountry huts as well in Lake County and across Colorado. And we've really come to value and appreciate the power of nature and of relationships. And one of the things that we've really value, especially for the Rosa, is when we go on these trips in the back country, the memories and the adventures that we have, they pay dividends, right? You don't get to just experience them once. You get to experience them every time you see those friends and those families. And those are the things that we really cherish in life. And you know, selfishly, it's probably I want to create this because I don't have enough of it in my own life, and I want to be able to share that with other people. So, we're trying to strike that balance between comfort and discomfort, similar to other backcountry structures like this where we provide enough amenities that you're not in the fight orflight mode all the time, but enough discomfort that you're getting into some creative thinking, you're connecting with your surroundings, and you're more aware of uh being in the present moment. And that's the unique thing about East Back Country experiences is that they do provide that for people. So it's something that you know we've come to cherish in our experiences at huts like this. You know there are three unique aspects that I want to point out today about our submitt. The first thing is as Melissa pointed out these structures are are existing. They've been there since the early 2000s. Permits were pulled originally but never closed. Um, so we've been working with Dan for 18 to 24 months, even before we purchased these properties to figure out how can we bring them into legal status and get them on a path where we can start utilizing them and sharing it with the

community. So, it's been a long time to get us to this day today. Um, then additionally, the second thing is we live there. If there's anybody that's going to be impacted, it's it's going to be us. We live there full-time and um we understand the challenges of traveling in the winter and we're uniquely positioned to be able to communicate that to our guests. Um we also understand the seriousness of fire mitigation which is why we're not allowing any campfires, no discharging of firearms or fireworks because if something happens and that impacts our livelihood, right? We we can't take that risk. And we also are the owners, the operators, the public relations, the marketing team. We're we're going to be doing everything. We're going to be directly communicating with all of our guests. And we can communicate the seriousness of our concerns and the risks of being in the back country. Um the third thing is our land position in the area as well. We own over 200 net acres that connect to or surrounding the Rose Hut Piggy's Bunk House and our drive is really for conservation. We we want our peace and quiet. We want our neighbors to be able to come up and enjoy it as well. um that's a driver for us and and we definitely have conversations about how do we um how do we still share this and mitigate the concerns from our neighbors and and for us too about we want to enjoy our peace and quiet, right? And we want that for the community as well.

So those are the three unique things, right? They're our land position, that we live up there, and that the structures are already existing. So, to close out my little soap box here, um it'd be very easy for us to say, you know what, we own 200 acres. We're just going to close it off and it's just going to be for us. It's just going to be for our family because, you know, I want to provide that legacy property, that that home place for little Conrad and my wife Kate. And uh but I think what's more impactful for us is how can we share this experience and help the community because once I start thinking outside of myself and realize that we can have a positive impact on many many more people that need these sorts of experiences in our community that need to get out because people are coming up are just like you and I. you know, they just need a little break. And it's so healthy for us to be able to connect in nature, slow down, connect with loved ones and friends. And we are so excited to be able to provide that opportunity and still keep in mind the respect for our neighbors and respect for wildlife as well. So, thanks for the opportunity. Okay.

Um, Melissa, can you remind um would you mind putting the Zoom thing back on there, too? Um, do we have on and I just remember having it was lots of years of discussions on back entry so I can't quite remember what we ended up putting in place but did we end up requiring a like best practices what where I'm going is I would love to see us and I wish we would do it with every rental but any anything that's like like a booklet that's like here's how best practices of surviving in the back country in general, you know, as far as like fires and what you do on roads and how what to expect in these situations and who to contact if this goes on or something like that. And I don't know if we already have it as a requirement. Um

I imagine these guys are probably already planning that, but I just wanted to I can't remember what we require the emergency management plan as part of this, which they provide, which gets to a lot of what you're saying, which is also what the fire district looks at. Yeah. But that that lighter touch um I'm not aware of something that's for brochure you keep doing this but you know that you give to people. So I think we really look to the owners for a lot of that that management. So unless something

yeah I think that we would want Yes. That's where we talks about it and I think we did talk about it during backcountry, but backount didn't allow short-term rentals without going through the CP. So maybe that's why it didn't end up probably. But I guess I would like to see that as a condition just I anticipate that they're going to do it anyway. But I think requiring there to be some kind of information that's provided to every single guest on how to be safe and also for that for the climax survivor. So you'd be a bunch of So maybe there's a form there a format or something.

Yeah. A format that could be easily copied. It's just a one page dos and don'ts the back country. That's a great idea. Yeah. Okay. We'll make a note of that. Um yeah. Any other question any questions from planning commission or county commissioners? Yeah. So I mean this is probably what you're talking about. So there is there a short-term rental licensing requirement for back country or there is not there so regular short-term rentals are not allowed in the back country. There's no short-term rental permitting. It's only like group camp or hut type COP. So the conditional use permit for that which is what this is.

Okay. But a typical STR permit isn't permitted in the back country. So then the 180 days, that's the one thing that popped out for me, the maximum of 180 days. Can someone explain exactly what that means? Is it 180 days per 15 people? Is the 15 people include the residents on the property? So, so these guys live on a different property that's nearac. Okay. Maybe I was confused because you were saying they live there.

They live they live on a different property. So, there won't be anybody living on this property full time. So, it would just be that there can only be occupancy 180 days. Whether it's two people or 15 people, only 180 nights can be occupied. Okay. So if there's one person there for 20 days, that eats up 20 days regardless. Mhm. Okay. At the same time, 15 people could be in the two cabins for 15 days and that's still only 15 days. Right.

Right. Right. Okay. I didn't know if there was some formula of how that works. How is that monitored or captured or is it a honor system. It's an honor system complete basis. Okay. Investigation. Okay. Yeah. Even the the inspections are done by third parties because these are in pretty remote locations and it takes a lot of staff time. So, we depend a lot on the applicants and their professionals to manage details. It is literally complaint based enforcement. That's the only way you're able to do that. Okay.

Which is kind of all right. Okay. Okay. It didn't stay in your And Andrew has a question. In your application, your uh the solar array will just be one solar array to take care of the two properties, the two structures. Yeah.

Uh Commissioner Lee. Um, it's hard for me to tell by uh just looking at those little pictures there, but have we had uh anyone on site at all to look at uh the condition of the structures and what type of shape they're in before we have six to eight people sleeping in something. The the one structure looked fairly sound and well built. The one looked a little bit like a shed to me and I couldn't see what kind of foundation it had set up in the picture. So, I just wondered about the safety of the structures and do we have anyone who has taken a look at these at all? Do you want to start?

Sure. Um, we've had a third party engineer evaluate the structures and submit that letter with the application as well. So, Melissa has that um in the application. Um, and for both for the Rose Hut, we will be doing the same thing for Peggy's Punk House once we get to that phase of construction. Right. The the Rose Hut is effectively ready to go. Um Peggy's bunk house is stick framed and dried in at the moment. So we will have that third party engineer come up um do his evaluation and submit a letter of recommendation for any remediation that we need to do or to stamp that it's safe and ready to go.

Yeah. So their CUP wouldn't um be valid until both or one or both of those buildings are structures are already are approved. Commissioner Thorp, you're muted. Oh, sorry. Thank you, Chair. Um, so is this been considered in these backcountry situations a cut or a group site? Are those um like commercial accommodations then? as tall as the land and the leaf.

Elsa, can you scoot closer to your microphone, please? I'm so sorry. Can you hear me? Okay. Yeah, now we can hear you. I think you were asking how it's going to be taxed, if it's going to be commercial or residential. Well, I'm assuming it's commercial, but then is it considered accommodations? Like I don't know how can you was What's the second part of the question? The lodging tax applies accommodation, right? Lodging tax would apply. Sales and lodging tax. Yeah. Cool. Thanks. I didn't know how much every Yes. Yes. And that would be done by the assessor. So the assessor would make that evaluation.

Well, the assessor will do their property taxes, but they will be responsible for having a sales and laundry tax license. and filing that with the state, right? Which I own another short-term rental, so for the last decade, so I'm very familiar with that process. Yeah. So, since you brought up the assessor and property tax, is that taxed differently as a back country zone when it's got a group camp cup. So, it's going to be taxed as it's being used. So because it will be a commercial type operation, I think it will be taxed similar to other group camps. Commercial type. Mhm.

So it wouldn't be and the assessor doesn't have a different tax base for backcountry zoning, but they do whether it's used residentially or commercially. Right. So that's how they're viewing it. As long as the CU is active, as long as it's being used that way. Yep. Mhm. So then if it falls in the middle of a year and you decide, you know what, we don't want to have all these guests anymore and we want to just keep it in the family and change that, you're still potentially being taxed commercially throughout the two years or whatever. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Until he changes that use with

when it gets reessed or whatever. Okay. Okay. I just like to say, is it fair to bring a cute baby to I know I when they said that there's no uh bias and then they brought in I was like no but cute baby. Cute baby. H Matt, can you weigh in on this? Is this is this legal? He's doing so good. I know you haven't turned him around, which is good. You guys be nice because if it starts going the wrong way, she's going to take me in the vac. That's right. That's right. Yeah. One of us will be grinding.

Now, good job you guys cleaning up those old properties. And so, you'll get a CO or you have a CO for the for the bigger structure. We will need to still get the CO. Yeah. So, we have a bit of a process still ahead of us for sure. Um, but yeah, we're ready to move forward. Nice. Uh, David Uridge or Ryan Hill, did either of you have any other questions or comments? None for me. Okay. None for me.

Oh, the only other question I had is there anything because nothing was technically permitted prior. Is there anything outside of the guidelines of backcountry zoning that the buildings don't adhere to at the moment? No. They'll be required. Not that would be in our purview, right? And they'll be required since they don't since they weren't finished, they'll be required to be to come into compliance. Okay. All right. Yeah. So, my only recommendation would be that additional condition of a user manager or mentor man.

Yeah. So, and the only thing I would like to add, I know you said that you're not going to allow camps, fires, and whatnot. That's in the application already. Okay. But yeah, just making sure that that's it's explicit. It's written in, right? I think we've done that for another If it's written in, then it's already Okay. Anything in the application is part of the Okay. All right. Uh, any members of the public that wish to make any comments? I'm Jim Benin from Albuquerque. I had I had submitted a letter with comments. I don't know if that's in the

Yeah. Did you want us to read that as part of the record? Sure, that would be great. I have a hard time competing against a cute baby, I'm sure. But I know. Yeah.

Okay, I'll go ahead and read it here. Dear commissioners, we believe it is in the best interest of Lake County to vote against the project as proposed. Thank you for the opportunity to submit comments on a conditional use permit for the above referenced file dash file 25-42, a conditional use permit for a project within Lake County's backcountry zone. We will begin with some brief background information. We are the owners of two patent and mining claims close to the proposed project, the Hawkeye Bell and the Evo, which our family has owned and enjoyed while preserving them in their natural undeveloped state since 1986. Um, our Hawkeye Bell is two standard mining claim widths or approximately 600 ft east of the California Rose, the claim on which the proponents project would be situated. The EVA borders US Forest Service land to the east, which quickly rises to the West Sheridan Peak. Historic mining activity in the nearby vicinity was relatively minor and now largely blends into the natural environment. When the county included this area in the new backcountry zone, we welcomed the zoning since it appeared it was intended to preserve the natural environment of this wild, relatively unspoiled high country by restricting new commercial uses, rentals, and structure sizes. Our understanding is that one of the goals of the backount zoning is to restrict short-term rentals such as Airbnb properties. If an Airbnb rental to say 1 to four people is considered not compatible with backcountry zoning, then what amounts to a barebones sort of motel with the short-term rentals up to 16 people? As this permit application appears to propose, it should not be considered compatible. A facility of up to 16 people staying at one site well into the backount zone will change the nature of the area. It will no longer be backount. 16 guests at a time will invariably disrupt a quiet natural area now frequented by wildlife, especially elk. Hikers we visit within the area invariably spend their nights in Leadville or other nearby towns and are much less disruptive to wildlife. Perhaps the proposal could be built outside the back country and this would

be one area lake county h that is left wild and natural as hikers prefer and we believe the county's backount zoning intended. Thank you again for this opportunity to comment and for your consideration. Sincerely, James Mein and Analisa. Did you have anything in addition you wanted to add to that?

I just um I guess our comment is u we were surprised that rentals were allowed in the back country because I you know I thought that that was not the case. Um we go up there occasionally to camp uh especially to watch wildlife. It's in the in the season it's usually an unusual day that we don't see an elk. Um, and I think just 16 people is overly intensive for this site. Um, if if rentals are allowed in the back country, then we would not oppose like, you know, renting the house to one one to four people or something like that. But 16 people is just going to, you know, there's going to be noise at night as well as in the day. Um, and I although the the owners I appreciate that they're not that far away, but they're way too far to hear that. Um, it's quite it's a good ways away. We're only 600 ft away. Uh, so I I just feel like this area is wild and it's relatively unspoiled. We we love the area. We spend time in Leadville, stay in Mineral or other places and u love the town. So, I I just think this is an area that really is special and I hate to see it go to a commercial development. If it's just a few people, that's not so disruptive to wildlife, especially at night. And u I think 16 is just way too many. I appreciate your listening.

Okay. Thank you, Jim.

Thank you. And just to clarify, um, backcountry zone properties are not eligible for an a regular STR or Airbnb permit. Um, so that part is correct. Um, it's just that if somebody goes through a conditional use permit application such as this for group camps or something that can be monitored and uniquely placed conditions upon um to have a better hold on it than an STR permit would give is the way that it's allowed. Um, so that's the way that we wrote that into the back country code language if that makes sense. feel better if there were like a camp host or something like that uh as opposed to guests basically controlling themselves especially the large number.

Um can you see these structures from where you're located or is there no line of sight? You said it depends on where

where we are. I'm sorry. We can see the structure. Some of the structures uh unless we're behind trees on our own property, but our property is it's a mix of forest and open alpine meadow. Um so if we're on the meadow, we can see it. Yes. Not not the not the house actually. The house is kind of hanging over the edge, but the shed we can definitely see it stands out also from anywhere on West Sheridan Peak. Okay, thank you. Um, I don't see a first name, but McNeerney, and if you could state your full name, please.

Yeah. Hi, this is Pat Mcnery. I know Kate and Carter uh well, and I just have a few questions on the mapping portion of uh Empire Valley because currently the mapping is still off by over 500 feet. So we still have people trespassing on our property. We have a property on the other side of the valley and we do look directly at the roads and currently people come across our property and if they're using OnX where they got the data from the county it's off by 500 ft. So, if this does go through and gets approved, I think before it is approved, the mapping in the entire Empire Valley should be updated so people know when they're trespassing.

Thank you. Yeah, I can um attest to that. Several times I've gone looking for mining claims for people that are listing them or what have you, and it's really fun to try to find them um using any apps. So, I I did have all of my property corners uh surveyed by a professional surveyor pinned and the thatcher is also pinned and registered at the state. So, the county can fix their mapping based on that. Okay. And it's all that has been submitted to the county. Okay. Thanks,

Bryce. Maybe maybe that's a note for Bryce. Well, it could, but it for you to Shelby. Mine might be too, Shelby. We can talk about that. Yeah, actually, we could have you submit it directly to You have mine Melissa Kendrick's email, I think. Right. Mr. McMney. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. My wife was gonna have a comment as well. Ask you a question. Just What was that question? before. I didn't hear them. Yeah, if you had that information, if you would be able to send it directly to Melissa. Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Think it's to the mapper. Yeah.

Yeah, that would be great. Yeah, I actually uh offered that before and they said they would reach out to me and they never did. So, there's definitely been a lot of staff short staff issues. So, thank you for your patience, but that'd be great if you don't mind submitting it again.

Yeah, no problem. And then I'm Pat's wife, Christina, and I also have a question because we have owned um the Thatcher now for since 2004, and we did build a backcountry um structure on our land. And when the county changed our taxes to commercial, um we approached the county and asked if we could rent out our backcountry unit and we were denied. So, I'm wondering what determines who gets to rent out their property and who doesn't and how many of these backcountry rentals can we have within a certain mile radius or is there no um regulation on that? Thank you.

Sure. So, um again, a regular short-term rental license permit is not um allowed in the backcountry zoning district. So to just go and say, "Hey, I want to rent out my house as a short-term rental." The only way that it's allowed is if it were submitted as something such as this with a conditional use permit to use it as a group camp or a hut. And then it's sight specific and each application is thought of differently based on where it is, um, what its access is and and those kinds of things. So, if you were denied that, it was probably because we don't allow the regular short-term rental licenses to be just given out um without somebody going through this more arduous um conditional use permit hearing. Why your property is zoned commercial uh does not make sense, but we unfortunately that would be something that I think you need to talk further with the assessor about. There's nothing that would deem a backcountry property from being zoned commercial um unless you were going through a group p camp and using it commercially. So, um that should not be the case that you are being uh assessed as a commercial use. But again, you'd have to take that up with the assessor here in town.

I did I did talk to them and they said they will not change it. But it's commercial or is it just that you're zoned backount? we're zoned commercial or we're being taxed as commercial. So I said, "Well, if I'm being taxed as commercial, then I'm legally allowed to rent it out." Yeah, that doesn't make sense. And they said, "No." Hey Pat, this is Tamara. I am the interim director for the EDC. We could perhaps connect offline and maybe talk through some support in a process to get realigned with some folks. Yeah, that would be great. information in the chat. Can you put your information in the chat, please? I'll get you connected to me.

Yeah, I'll reach out afterwards. Pat and Christina, get you connected. Yeah, that would be great. Thanks, Carter. But then I also the question about how many because we do have the yurts that are just, you know, on the other side of the hill that are rented out. So, how many of these backcountry um, you know, pet style systems are we going to allow? And how close in proximity can they be?

Well, and I don't there's no set we don't have anything in the code that's set for a max number or a max distance or anything, but that's again why we have them as conditional use permits so that we can hear um and ex, you know, assess each application for exactly those kinds of things. Um how close they are to others, how many more we want, how much density we want of something like that. um and you know kind of leaning on other property owners um around to to give us that insight of hey it's it's too much traffic we have too much traffic from these neighboring huts or you know nope it's fine. So I think that's part of um the process that that the conditional use permit application allows us to you know assess those things. And I also want to make a note that we do rescue people every year, multiple times a year.

Yes, we do. Yep. Going to the yurts. Yeah. Get people unstuck that take a wrong turn on the snowy road and show up to our cabin. Show up to our cabin. My cabin. Your cabin. Exactly.

If Yep. So Tamara Jen Link, I'm going to wear two hats. The first one will be interim director for the EDC. And from an economic development standpoint, I just want to throw out some pieces that feel really important. Um, as we lean into our one community project and as we start to think about what is our identity, how are we managing both lodging and accommodation in our county, we are sending at any given time 75 80% of our folks over the hill somewhere else. So having a sustainable path forward that gets us into a place where we have lodging that that does meet kind of the community values feels really important. It also does keep some of those tax dollars in our county which is huge as well. But ultimately how are we building a sustainable identity? How are we building a path forward that does incorporate backcountry use? This is an opportunity I think to also be thinking about how we're educating, how we are creating good humans in the back country, shephered by them, stewarded by, you know, the components as as what is your title in this role? I actually don't know that I'm supposed to refer to you as anyway as you recommended best practices,

right? Having those pieces, this gives us an opportunity, I think, to really think about a couple pieces. one is lodging accommodation, how we're meeting that need and keeping people in our county, but also how we are thinking about stewardship in the back country as well and really working together with our partners and in this case uh Carter and Kate to create a path that is developing good usage is developing good humans and is helping us also adopt we have to we have to leave it open a little bit but you can yeah that's great thank you pieces of the required open door

pieces of economic development that are also critical and crucial to move forward. So we're going to face some of those challenging components but also like here is a application that certainly meets all those pieces and criteria that is both our community side but also can use some dollars in switching hats. I do live a mile away from them. Um, and have known Kaden Carter for the last five years. And I would just actively say I think this is a a great place for us to start with that in terms of people who have already demonstrated themselves as really amazing stewards of the land and how do we work together with them in that same component to develop something that is usable, sustainable. So from both the private and just the leadership hopefully that was not me creating some kind of convoluted pathway but just naming some things that feel important to have on

uh anybody from No, we don't have any other public members who have not already spoken. Oh maybe yeah I haven't I haven't got a chance. I'm sorry I don't remember how to put my hand on the

No, that's okay. You're doing a great job. My name's Joe Reel. Um, and I own a smaller mining claim there in the Empire Valley. And I just wanted to kind of echo um I think it was Mr. uh Benin, if I'm if I'm pronouncing it correctly. Apologies if I'm not. Just that um we've owned um that claim uh since I think 2006 or 2007. And I also have three children who uh we've just really enjoyed going up there, hiking, having a picnic, and um really enjoying the wildlife up there. And I just want to make sure that if we're going to have backcountry zoning that it really is protecting everything, and I know everybody wants that as well, but I I I really heard Mr. Benin um uh loud and clear. And I just want to make sure that I'm on the record saying that um that is a I think a a unique opportunity for us. And I I know that we want to all do the stewardship correctly. And I I just want to make sure that um you know, we don't have too many people at one time doing whatever their honor system tells them to do um in this area. Um just because my children also really love to to be up there. Um, and I would hate for it to be to be kind of u impacted impacted more than it already is. That's all I had.

Great. Thank you, Joe. Um, any other questions from uh commissioners or planning commission? I have none. Thank you. Okay. Uh, do we have a motion to close the public hearing on 25-42 and 43? Move to close the public portion. Edward seconds. Okay. All in favor? I I Okay, commissioners, enjoy your evening. Okay. Good luck. Thank you. Have a great holiday. You, too. Take another cookie for the road.

Thank you. Happy holidays, everyone. Thanks you guys. Thanks for being here in person, man. Thanks for being here in person. Sure. Thanks. Appreciate you.

Okay. I think the commissioners have Okay. Um I'm going to bring us back to file 25-41 and48, which was the Sugarloaf Mountain Ranch back country cup and site plan. Um, painting commission. Anybody have any additional uh thoughts or questions? Or is somebody ready to make a motion on that file or files? There would be two separate motions. So, we'll do one at a time. Right.

None for me. Edwards moves the planning commission recommend approval of file number 25-41 Sugarloaf Mountain Ranch CUP an application to construct a wildfire mitigation base of operations and facility basic utility on 20.6 6 acres located at 3500 County Road 4 containing

um yeah something to the board of county commissioners with the following conditions. The applicant should comply with all lake LLCFR requirements including an emergency evacuation plan and also wildlife mitigation plan to include a safety zone. Number three is plan on hazardous chemical storage including oils, fuels and other. Number four is a water storage capabilities for fire suppression efforts. Point number two, all statements in repositions made by the applicants in this application and in the hearing shall be binding and considered as approvals of conditions of approval and further finding that as conditions section 3.6.1F 6.1F approval criteria of the LDC have been met as evidenced in the staff report dated 12 225.

I second. Any discussion on the cup portion of that motion? Okay, I'm going to do a roll call vote. Joey Edwards, yes. Uh Jason Mara, yes. David George, yes. Ryan Hill, yes. Heather Lind, yes. Okay. And then the site plan portion, which is file 25-48, you want to make that one, Jason? Uh, I can make it.

Yeah, you make that cuz I I'm reading the next do. Sorry. I move the planning Edwards moves the planning commission recommend approval of file number 25-48 Sugarloaf Mountain Ranch site plan the application to construct a wildfire mitigation base of operations and facility basic utility on 2.6 acres located at 3500 county road 4 uh according to the board of county commissioners uh to with the following conditions. Uh first the applicant shall comply with all LLCFR requirements including number one an emergency evacuation plan number two wildfire mitigation plan to include safety zone. Number three plan on hazardous chemical storage including oils, fuels and other and fourth water storage capabilities for fire suppression efforts. And point number two, all statements and repres uh representations made by the applicant in this application and in the hearing shall be binding and considered as conditions of approval. And further finding that as conditions, section 5.2.271D site plan approval criteria of the LDC have been met as evidenced in the staff report dated 1222.

I second. Okay. Any discussion? Uh, Joey Edwards, yes. Jason Rupa, yes. David, yes. Brian Hill, yes.

Heather Lynn, yes. Okay, we move on to file 25-42 um and 43, which is the Rose Hut and Peggy's bunk house group camp and backcountry site plan. Um before we get into motions, um I definitely would want that condition for how to move. Uh yeah, that sounds good. Can I make a statement before we make a motion?

Uh one statement and it's to the public. I know that a lot of the public has already dropped off, but also to the applicants. All of this that we're doing in the back country, we're doing trying to do in the very best interest of Lake County. All of this is uh complaint-based enforcement. So, it's important that if you see things that you don't like, if you see things that you don't agree with, if you see things that could be managed better, then you speak up to the Lake County Planning Commission and make a report and follow through with that and do everything you can to be a good neighbor both for the applicants and for the rest of Empire Valley. Um, that's the only way this process gets better. So please do please do participate in the process and thank you for the concerns and the and the points that were made.

So my um my only thought since you know in reviewing both applications and hearing some of the public comment tonight is things like there's not going to be any water here with 16 people. Um composting toilets are relatively limited in scale. Mhm. Um which that I'm not as worried about. It's more of a like if something were to happen, um there's no water to pull from anything. No sistern or anything. They don't have a well up there. They're just bringing water in.

Um I do feel like that feels a little bit um inadequate to not have any kind of water uh storage for any kind of anything. Um, so that that is a little bit concerning to me, especially since it was a condition on the last one. I'm surprised the fire that fire chief didn't require it on this one as well. But um, so that would be the only thing. I also I mean I can I can I agree with what you just said. I can certainly sympathize with the neighboring property owners that I mean I fought for backcountry zoning district for way too many years. um to not let it do what it was intended to do, which is keep it quiet and pristine out there. And if there's, you know, um you know, as we all know, all of our back country is getting busier and busier every year regardless of whether or not things like this exist. So I think recognizing that and you know I would I I do see the merit in having it be less than 16 people but I also can see the merit of um you know believing that these guys are neighbors and good intentions up there. Um hopefully it will rarely be max capacity, but I would I would just say that I think that complaint basis needs to be reviewed and I know our CPS are are reviewed every year anyway. Um but if that number has to come down in the future, I think then it has to come down. Um because I think that's what concerns me a bit is it is a lot of people at one time on one one claim. um in a lot of without supervision. And I'd love to believe that all the people that go into these backcountry huts are smart, like-minded people, but a lot of them

are not. So, um yeah, those are my two concerns after hearing any public comments. So I don't know if anybody has anything else they like. So I also have a concern that essentially approving it is setting a precedence that all the neighboring properties what's to stop them from also applying for a C and absolutely nothing

and we have now there's nothing to limit. Why would we not approve another one and another one and another one and another one and then the next thing you know you have density issue of unmonitored honor system participants

we didn't have the ability to do that and we had precedent in doing that because we did that in West Park with short-term rental licenses. We identified an area that was that was overly used uh and was receiving complaints and we did put something in to to limit any future licenses in that area. I think we would do exactly the same thing in Empire Valley if it became a problem. Well, and that's exactly why we created it as a CP process rather than just allowing short-term rental permits because you want to be able to decide upon each application separately based on what's already being used around it and in the density of it already and the traffic already and those kinds of things. So absolutely that would I mean who gets in there first is going to be ahead of somebody who doesn't you know tries to get in later because it's not going to be as likely if it's you know right next door.

So I don't think there's any you know I don't think there's any issues with with that in the future. I think it's purely just a matter of like we're going to continue seeing these applications for sure moving forward. And I think that our conversation moving into next year about what are group camps and what are the definitions, you know, like that we're supposed to start in January. I think this is the backount district is a huge piece of that conversation. um which obviously isn't in play right this minute for these applications but I think it is something to be thinking about what do we want and is it got its own use category moving forward in the use table that says this can't happen and this is the max occupancy and this is the whatever right and then you can really start to narrow those in but as our code reads right now it's condition use permit so we just decide whether as it sit sits right now if is compliant with our

it would be incredibly helpful from staff on future applications like this to see adjacent similar uses mapped out properly so that we can tell when we're getting to a density issue because I don't know how far away the yurts are from your property but I'm familiar with uh being able to see that would be a nice would be a nice thing ongoing just as a staple is where are other where are other like-minded sites in this general facility Okay. That that that would help us address the density issue. Yeah. Yeah. And I I agree with what um Commissioner German said about this is a part of looking at the larger picture. Absolutely.

Um because we probably have a density. I don't know that this is a good example of that, but um there could be a higher level of density even than what we're seeing. And so, you know, we need to look at that for the back country. Yeah. And yeah, this is 10 acres. They own 200 acres, I assume, adjacent. Yeah. And then there are other people with much smaller parcels. So that would make a difference, too. Uh Ryan, help.

Yeah, I just wanted to echo I think that the occupancy of 16 people at once um is a is a concern, a valid concern uh just to be echoed. Sorry, that's And there was no parking right there. It's all pike in, right? And they were they're getting a um parking permit from public works to be able to park down at the Is there a limitation to the amount of That'll be between them and public works. Okay. I don't know if that's Am I allowed to comment at this point?

You can talk to staff. Yeah. Well, I guess two things, Melissa. One being that there are limits on densities uh in the back country and we're we're well under that. I think it's five people per acre or something large like that. We're not pushing or underground camp. Correct. Yeah. As the code written today. And you know, our our drive really is for conservation. Yes. There's 16 people. I and that's modeled off of other similar backcountry huts in Lake County as well that on their parcels they allow up to 16 people and sometimes even more like the western passets are like 10 or 20 or something like that.

Um it's definitely one of our concerns as well. So we we closed public comment. So I mean if you're just going to give her like a stat or something then we can do that but otherwise we're going to have to open the back up public hearing. Okay. Okay. Um, and sorry that's true for you. Um, yeah. So, I guess my question then was how like are you going to have you could potentially have 15 cars? Yeah, that's going to be I don't People aren't going to go up there like one person, one car. They're going to be shuttled up there. We're imagining two or three cars at a time.

Right. I just don't want to imagine though. But there is a potential if for some reason the worst case scenario you could have 15 cars 15 except that except that the county wouldn't allow that kind of parking permit there. That's what I'm saying allow 15 cars. Okay. So there would be a limitation by public the National Park Service. Sorry for Okay. Uh but so yeah that's a secondary limitation. Okay. But outside of the purview uh for what we're doing. Right. Right. I jurisdiction but but no 15 cars is a massive size parking lot and that's just not available up there mostly from a emergency eress standpoint.

Okay. Uh David, did you have any I didn't know if I saw you. No, I'm I'm thinking along the same lines of the comments I've heard up till now, but 16 people seems like a lot. Yeah. And that's for how is two structures or two structures 16 people per Mhm. 16 people total between two structures and between two doors. Does the back country have any limitations on that occupancy per structure size or

not per structure just per acre which again is what we need to okay look at if we want to have that conversation later yeah it's far more dense than their application I mean I've been to some camps when I was little that there was you know 12 kids in 10 by 10 I don't know maybe it's cool as a kid but I don't know can I still ask questions of the applicant Not really. Yeah, we'd have to open it back up. No, that's okay. Um, you can do a straw poll to see how the commissioners feel about it. Yeah,

I know that you have concerns. Let's do a straw poll for everybody. What would your suggestions be? You know, that's a a tough one, but I can see from my biggest concern is anytime we approve anything like this or recommend approval is that you're setting a precedence. And that is tough for the next person and the next person. And then while the applicants can be great stewards and want to have a family, maybe there's something happens down the road and then it gets taken over by someone and they're not as good as stewards

and the cup I don't know if the cup has to be reapplied for by any new owners or it stays. No, but as long as soon as there's any any complaints then it gets redressed and can be revoked at any time. Okay. Mhm. And so that would be potentially another concern is that okay, you've opened it up for the commercial activity. There's no guarantee that it's going to continue on from the original intent by the applicants.

No, that's very true. And that's where those that's where those complaints would come in. So in our in our hearing, we heard from the applicant that they're not going to allow any outdoor fires at all. So if any adjacent neighbor ever happened to spot a fire ring or fires occurring, you would assume that some type of a complaint would be made and then we could readress the cup and would open them back up to review, right? That's what I would hope would happen. Yeah, that's what would happen. I just these are like perfect circumstances that the people live there, they're familiar with the back country. Um they have neighbors who are community concerned and unaware, right? So this would be an interesting test case. So, I'm not necessarily opposed to 16 people, but it's literally a test case to see if

can you actually control 16 people up there and keep it with an intent of what the backount zone was, right? I know it's just very Does 8 to 12 people sound better? But well, but people also come here with the best intentions and they still make mistakes and they start that fire or they do something they're not supposed to. And there's a wood burning stove in both of these houses. Yes. And that could go ary and I you know so those are things are you know um it can be as simple as I think there was a fire last year or whatever. There was a one

the battery the lithium battery was in the water and it caught fire or something and started an issue. like there's so many things and then as you get more people that I so I you know I hear the there was the comment about the camp host I mean it's not a horrible thing you know that gives you a little bit more but I don't know I like going camping with a bunch of family too you know and 10 12 people is not unheard of for just two small families. So, I can see the appeal of that as well. But again, you have to think about all the rest of Lake County and surrounding that if something happens because you start getting too much density there and just kind of not paying attention maybe and then it threatens the rest of the community. And that's I guess where there could be some concern that I have. But like I said, I'm not against it. I just

understood I think it's important of course to throw that out there. Yeah, I feel like um I like that it's uh remote back country, not not doing anything additional to the land. I the part that sticks out for me for 16 people is the lack of water. So that's there's not um a big requirement for that. So I think that that's where I keep getting stuck is it's not developed enough which we don't want it to be developed but it's not developed enough for 16 people. So what would you suggest? What's it say? What did what is your head go?

I think right off hand I would say 10 to 12 people would be my number instead of 12 to 16. The others as well. Ryan or David, any thoughts from you guys? None further for me. I I don't have a number in mind. I I know that sounds terrible, but I mean I think about hunting season. What if you had 16 hunters up there? Would wouldn't that be a significant impact to the peacefulness of the area uh in their in in this particular application? uh they're not allowing any firearms.

Okay? It's not to say that you won't have hunters that are camping there. Uh but this particular application, no fireworks, no firearms.

Okay. Well, yeah, I think we we could propose a condition that would reduce the number of people. 10 to 12 will be I think a reasonable adjustment. And if anything changed in the future, everything went beautifully, applicants could always come to us and say, "Hey, can we expand on that number?" There's a whole new COP process. Well, it is a new COP because we don't have a COP amendment. we may before we get there. Um have that because this keeps coming up for us.

Yeah. Um the size just as an equivalent is similar to the 10th Mountain Division hut. It's that kind of that's that many people typically. So just in scale um it can't be 10 to 12. It needs to be it needs to be one or the other. But the 10th fountain huts for instance are a much larger they are much larger facilities than these two houses are. I didn't ask for what square footages is but just based on the photographs you know 10th the 10th mountain hut is some some of these are 3,000 ft. These are these are big facilities.

So that's some of your concern is the size of the structures for this. I think to add to that too, um, you know, I have friends that will rent out those huts and unfortunately a lot of the concerns that were raised around what might happen at these facilities does happen at those huts. Yeah. Mhm. Of course it does. Even with fire bands, it still happens 100%. Pat, I want to acknowledge that your hand is raised, but our public hearing portion is closed, so we can't take any more public comment. Um,

I I understand that, but you brought up a concern about the hunting and being directly across from those units. I'm sorry. I do want to say this. People every year unload semi-automatic weapons in that valley and we hear continuous shooting. So, I can't imagine a camp of 16. I'm sorry. Yeah. Um okay. So any thoughts um from planning commission members on condition proposed conditions to move us along.

I think you said the one is in there so far as fire. Yeah. So that was a big one for me. But if it's in there, then that's captured. Then that's part of the since it's in the application, that's part of the conditions.

I'd like to see a required best practices form uh provided to each occupant or each user. Is there a because there's not a requirement for the water but it was a recommendation.

No, not not on this one. It wasn't a require there's no requirement and there is no recommendation but there is no water. Every all the water up there is is to be carried in by occupants. So there's not a sistern there's not a well there's no way to pump water. There's no adjacent. They're just bringing in the water that they use. There's no pond on the property, for instance. Um, which was what I think was triggering Heather's concerns about density. So, that's up to you guys if you want to try to put a limit on that. I'm okay with 16 as a test case, but I'm open to the rest of the commission's uh recommendation. How long are the city fees for?

Ever. forever until they're until they're unless they were to be raising concern enforcement or change of use or right but it's still all on the honor system. Yeah, but all of them are I mean this is no different than the other. I'm just make yeah I'm just stating that as a so I understand that it's it's always the honor system by the applicants of how they treat the permit. I mean there's some things that have to get followed up in order for it to go through obviously with like making sure that the plans are approved with fire rescue and all those. Okay.

But as far as ongoing, yes. Right. It would just be a potential complaint and then whoever provides enforcement doing some kind of a check or correct doing some kind of making a recommendation having it come back to us. Okay. Uh Ryan or David. So did I hear Melissa correctly when she said that it's all or nothing regarding the 16 person occupancy? No, no, no. She was saying that we can't just say 10 to 12. We have to put a max number. I We have to pick one. We have to pick a number. It has to be a set number, Ryan. It can be whatever number we choose. Got it. Okay.

I think from standpoint, I I'm more leaning in the camp of um less than 16. Um if there is a number um that you guys are more comfortable with, I'm all ears. And I don't know this is a maybe a question but is there a difference in hotel lo you said hotel lodging tax based on people or group or night or it's nightly rental. It's a nightly it's you're just off it's off the amount of money. Okay.

It's just on the on the on the money. Okay. Got it. So that wouldn't affect by saying a limitation on the number of people potentially. I mean unless they could be that they are it could be that they're charging per person, but like okay, you have to figure out how to guess this one. David, what are your thoughts on the number?

Well, I I'm trying to think of a an example where there's a structure where 16 people are staying in it, and I I don't have the the knowledge of the of the community as much as your experience, but I am not coming up with an equivalent something short of a hotel or a motel. There are several Tenth Mountain huts, Uncle Buds Hut comes to mind for me, that have higher occupancies, but they're very large structures. Um, they were designed as bunk houses to hold a couple dozen people potentially. Um, I don't know about the yurts. don't know what limitations are on the yurts either for uh the yurts that are up on Empire Valley or the yurts that are uh that are occupied down at Tennessee Pass. I don't have anything to reference that on. So, I don't know what their maximum size is. And so, we didn't have a square footage of each of the units as they are now.

Never. I mean, I don't remember seeing

one. The the Peggy's is 200 square ft. Mhm. And the Rose is 7 750 760. Yeah. One's 200 f feet and one is 750 ft. It's a pretty good size building.

Yeah. So I I mean I look at it from any kind of group camp, you know, families and how many family or how many people can fit in a in a given space comfortably, safely, you know, you have no power, it's cold, whatever, you know, something in the middle of the night that could potentially be dangerous or whatever. And you know, you see all the time in a room even like this, maximum occupancy for the safety of people in a commercial setting and um you put too many people in one place, it could be bad. That's all I'm saying. And so I mean 750 is a lot a lot bigger and I think that's I don't know what the backount isn't it 600 for back country

I guess for backcountry structure but you can still build up to 1,200. Yeah, if there's multiple levels or some like a loft or whatever, that's not included in that. That's true. Square footage or I mean, so you know, 15. Yeah, like you said, it doesn't sound like a lot, but potentially for the smaller unit, I guess that would be more of my concern. Well, and I don't know that there would ever be a situation where you would have 16 people in a 200T unit, right? But a 750T unit is a decent size place. That's right. 20 by 35 ft. That's a pretty good size floor space assuming everybody's sleeping in sleeping bags or

Yeah. And I I mean I have a shed that's 10 by 20 is 200 square ft and I wouldn't put more than two or three people. That's that's a four person occupancy maybe. Right. But assuming a larger group is in the larger place and maybe the kids are in a smaller place, I don't know. Right. Right. But uh but yeah, you certainly wouldn't put 16 in a 200 foot spot. Um

but you can't limit occupancy by structure. Correct. Or could you? No, but I think we we only want to focus on what we want to limit this application to. I don't think we want to talk about it limit attaching it to structure size because we have nothing in the code that way. Yeah. Beyond is is there a a requirement commercially to say that only so many people can occupy a certain amount of space? I don't know that there are limits to what you are allowed to do in a short-term rental, but that's a completely different situation. Right. Right. You know, maybe that's what you're thinking there, but that is a different kind of calculation.

Number of bedrooms, number of bathrooms, things like that. This is what um uh unless somebody speaks up on the commission, I'm going to recommend the approval is written at 16 people, but I'm happy to move it down to 12 if two or more commissioners would like to see that done. But speak now or forever hold your peace, please. I would like I would like to see it reduced to 12. I would second that. There you go. You want to hand me that and I'll read Melissa. Do I get a rebuttal?

I thought you read in that we get a rebuttal. No public hearing during the public hearing. Any other questions, comments, or concerns? I don't mean to speak over you. You're welcome to do that before we do anything. Anybody else have anything today on the planning commission? No. No,

bear with me while I find my spot again. All right. Edwards moves the planning commission recommend approval of file number 25-42. Rose Hub and Peggy's Bunk House Group Camp CU, an application for a group camp located at 2700 County Road 6B containing 10.3 acres to the board of county commissioners with the following conditions. Number one, a permit from public works is required for the use of county road for parking. Number two, the occupancy of the structures is limited to the terms of the septic variance of 180 days per year. Number three, applicant shall reveate any disturbed soils developing a noxious weed plan with the assistance of the Colorado Division of Parks and Wildlife and the Lake County Conservation District. Number four, the applicant shall consider best practices for complying with uh Colorado Parks and Wildlife recommendations in order to protect the important habitat surrounding the property. Number five, applicant shall comply with all recommendations and requirements of Leadville Lake County Fire and Rescue. Number six, there shall be facilities for trash located either inside each cabin or any outdoor trash receptacle shall be bare proof. Number seven, all statements and representations made by the applicant in this application and in the hearing should be binding and considered as conditions of approval. Additionally, condition number eight, uh a best practices information sheet andor packet uh will be provided to each uh renter or participant. Number nine, occupancy of the structures uh will be reduced from the originally suggested 16 to a maximum of 12 people.

In further finding that as conditioned, the criteria outlined in section 3.6.1F of the land development code have been met as evidenced in the staff report dated December 22nd, 2025. Do I have a second on the motion? I second. Any discussion on the motion? Okay, we'll call Joey Edwards. Yes. Jason Rufo, yes. David, yes. Ryan Hill, yes.

Heatherland, yes. Uh, so that's just a recommendation for the CUP. So, we'll go on to the site plan, which is file 25-43. Edwards moves the planning commission recommend approval of file number 25-43, Rose Hut and Peggy's Bunk House Group campsite plan, an application for a group camp located at 2700 County Road 6B containing 10.3 acres. I'll need that again. I think for the site plan.

Okay. Uh 10.3 acres to the board of county commissioners with the following conditions. Number one, a permit for the public works is from public works is required for the use of county road for parking. Number two, the occupancy of the structures is limited to the terms of the septic variance of 180 days per year. Number three, applicant shall revestate any disturbed soils developing a noxious weed plan with the assistance of the Colorado Division of Parks and Wildlife and the Lake County Conservation District. Number four, the applicant shall consider best practices for complying with CPW recommendations in order to protect the important habitat surrounding the property. Number five, applicant shall comply with all recommendations and requirements of Leadville Lake County Fire and Rescue. Number six, there should be facilities for trash located either inside of each cabin or any outdoor trash recepticles shall be approved. Number seven, all statements and representations made by the applicant in the application and in the hearing should be binding and considered as conditions of approval. In further finding that condition, the criteria outlined in section 5.2.27.1D 27.1D of the land development code have been met as evidenced in the staff report dated December 22nd, 2025.

Thank you. I have a second. I second. Any discussion? Joey Edwards? Yes. Jason Maro? Yes. Reinhill? Yes. David? Yes. Heatherland? Yes. Um, so now these are just our recommendations that go to the board of county commissioners at their next meeting. It's not scheduled at the moment. Okay. Yeah. And um,

I mean part part of the process I looked at looking at your code is is you're required to adopt written findings of fact which I don't think has been happening in the past. So just making the motion is not fun fact. So it really needs to come back for this board or we need to get a better process in place. The code is probably what just as we did with the previous one today. Yeah. So we'll have to you know get you guys written findings of fact that you can look at and then pass those on. And

you want that done before it's recommended to the commission. Okay. So those will come to us. Then it'll go to the board of county commissioners and they will decide whether to approve our recommendation or not. Um any other Did we get any texts from Ann that we need to speak of? Okay. Then we'll entertain a motion to adjourn. That be supposed to adjurnn. I second. All right. Hi.