Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Yes. Thanks. Good evening and welcome to the March 5th meeting of the De Moines City Planning and Zoning Commission. I will start by reading our rules and procedures. The plan and zoning commission is generally an advisory body to the city council. City council will hold a public hearing and make the final decision on all matters before the commission other than site plans and subdivision plat unless denials or conditional appro approvals thereof are appealed. The applicant will be given 10 minutes to present the request. Proponents and then opponents from the public are then allowed to speak in that order with each speaker allowed a maximum of five minutes. The applicant is then allowed 5 minutes for rebuttal. The hearing will then be closed and the

commission will discuss and vote on the issue. All comments are to be germanine to the item under consideration and speakers are to maintain in a courteous manner. Items listed on the consent portion of the agenda will not be individually discussed and will be considered for approval in accordance with the recommendation in the staff report unless an individual present or a member of the commission requests that the item be removed from the consent agenda and considered separately under the public hearing agenda. Um before we get started with our typical business, we'd like to welcome Clayton Elwell and Dominic Ania. Welcome to the commission. Glad you're here. Um, let's start with could we get an approval, excuse me, a motion to approve the meeting minutes from our last meeting?

Thank you, Todd. All in favor, please raise your right hand. Uh, any abstensions? Thank you. Motion passes. We will move into the consent public hearing items. Item number one is a request from Everlasting Properties LLC for review and approval of a public hearing site plan prestige Kitchen and Bath Workshop for property located at 600 Hulcom Avenue and for a type 2 design alternative in accordance with city code to wave installation of the sidewalk identified in the city's transportation master plan as a priority level one sidewalk gaps per city code. Would anyone in the audience tonight like this item pulled from the consent agenda and discussed under the public hearing? Anyone on the commission? Okay. Item number one will stay on consent. Item number two is a request from Jerry's Homes for review and approval of a public hearing site plan and for a type two design alternative in accordance with city code for property located at 2371 Emma Avenue to allow construction of a house type B in an N3A neighborhood district with an attached garage where the overhead doors comprise 50% of the front facade width where house B only allows the garage door to encompass is 30% of the front facade width per code. Uh would anyone in the audience tonight like this item pulled from the consent agenda and discussed in the public hearing? Anyone on the commission? Okay. Item number two will also stay on consent.

The third consent item is a request from Hubble Realy Company for review and approval of a preliminary plat Woodmont Plat on 169.52 acres of property in the vicinity of 4425 East Douglas Avenue to allow the property to be subdivided into 511 buildable lots. Would anyone in the audience tonight like this item pulled from consent and discussed? Okay. Anyone on the commission? Excuse me. All right. Item number three will also remain on consent. Could we have a motion to move the consent agenda? Thank you. All in favor, please raise your right hand. Any opposed? and abstensions. Thank you. Motion passes and we'll move to the public hearing. Item number four is a request from CB Build LLC for the following regarding a 6.5 acre parcel located in the vicinity of 5600 Southeast 27th Street. Uh this is a determination as to whether the requested reszone is in conformance with plan DSM and a request to reszone the property from N2B neighborhood district to N2B-2 neighborhood district to allow the construction of 16 two household dwelling units and a standalone one household dwelling unit. And Bert will present for staff tonight.

All right, Madame Chair, members of the commission, Bert Ross, planning staff for the city of De Moines. Item number four, as the chair just said, is a resoning that would allow for redevelopment of a vacant property for a mix of duplexes and one household dwellings. The subject property is located down in the Easter Lake area neighborhood association. Um it is an a piece of property that's um longly been undeveloped. It's just to the north of an assisted living center and just to the south of a primarily um single family residential neighborhood. Um so the development would allow for the extension of Southeast 27th Street um to finally um go through. Um so the um like the chair said the the application was to construct 16 duplexes and one single family dwelling for a total of 33 dwelling units. Um our recommendation has reduced that a little bit and the applicant has agreed to that. So I'll get to that shortly. But here's the initial application or the initial request shows a T development um with two duplexes and one single family dwelling being located to the west of Southeast 27th Street and then the um 14 duplexes um here on this east west street. And as shown on this large-scale development plan, it shows that this east west street would be able to extend easterly when the property to the east develops. So, um this is showing that this development would fit into the street network of the surrounding area. Again, here just another um closer look at what they initially proposed. And then, um as I will get to it, our staff recommendation was for that these dwellings to the west of Southeast 27th

Street to be single family and they did comply. So this drawing here shows um what would um happen if the staff recommendation was adopted. These are the floor plans that they have submitted for the two for the duplex structures. Then these are some character elevations. And then this is just another aerial photo that they provided. And then this is looking from north um from the south and then this is looking south from the north side which is taken from Google Street View. Um as I mentioned our staff recommendation is for approval. However, we've recommended about seven conditions that are intended to make the structures better blend in with the surrounding neighborhood. I'll just go through those. Um, one we said that any lot west of this extension of Southeast 27th Street should be developed with detached um, single family houses or being outlot and then the rest of the conditions really deal with the character of the building. Um, so number condition number two is that at least 35% of the front facade shall be full dimensional brick or stone. The third condition is that um, they need to have mult or like varying roof designs. so that they're not not all structures are identical in form. Uh number four is that um they need to have um at least um two different sighting treatment plans for structures. And five is that there should be no design duplicated on adjoining lots. And then six, we would like to have a front porch on each dwelling unit. And then um seven, the um sighting materials shall comply with the standards outlined in chapter 135.

Uh this is the neighborhood meeting summary. I believe they had about 25 people attend. I'll let the applicant um go more into depth on that. Um we did get a few cards in opposition. I'll let you read through these, but the opposition is greater than 20%. So, in order for this to pass at city council, it will need a supermajority vote. And I can come back to any of these if you'd like. And then here's the consent map. As you'll see, we have 28% of the land within 200 ft is in opposition. So, it will need the supermajority vote of council. Um, then you guys have any questions for me?

Can you go back to the map, the map of uh opposition? Sorry. No, sorry. So you're saying that's going even though there's been no say from the majority of the neighbors, it's actually on land area is what the calculation is. Correct. It's um based on the land area, not excluding right away within 200 ft of the subject property. We notify 250 ft, which is why there are two red lines at the outline. The furthest one out is the 250 ft notification area and then the closer one is the 200 ft boundary that we use for I'm calculating percent opposition or support I guess.

Gotcha. So we really only So there's opposition from five out of what looks like 40 here, but it six cards. Yeah. Yeah. Or any other questions for Bert. I have one. I've got one. B, what responsibilities will the city of De Moines have for the infrastructure?

The applicant would be required to construct the eventual um streets and sidewalks. Since it'd be public, it likely be dedicated to the city once constructed. They I should have mentioned on the plan, they do have a storm water detention basin at the northwest corner of the development is within an outlot. So if you see where the cursor is, that would be where their storm water detention would occur. With utilities expansion, would um communication utilities also be included in that now? Hopefully. I would have to let the developer answer that. Okay.

But we're not requiring So we're requiring the road be extended and water and sewer, I assume, if necessary, but we're not requiring utilities or communication utilities yet. I don't believe we have a requirement for like the fiber or anything. Okay. So, we haven't added that even though we could. I suppose you could make that a condition. I don't know if there's fiber network adjoining this that would even make it possible at this time, but they could construct it. So, when it is available, it could be extended, right? Could you explain staff rationale around changing those the ones on the

these sides? Yeah. to originally they were having one single family house there and then two duplexes. We just felt that since I don't know if you saw in the aerial there is one house to the south and then actually a single family house to the west and so we just felt that you know Southeast 27th Street is just having single family there would be a continuation of what's to the north and to the south. B. Um, since this is just a resoning with the preliminary plat, is there potential for that um storm water location to change?

That's correct. this resoning. Unless the commission would somehow tie the resoning to this plan, I think there would be an opportunity to relocate it if during the design phase they discover, oh, it would work better at a different location.

Question on the density with the revised unit total. Uh, do you know what the net density is? I don't remember if how that changed. I don't know if she had to leave. She would probably know that. But it did reduce the density slightly. It wasn't a whole lot, but it was really only losing two lots out of 33. But it still requires two two units out of 33. It still requires the resoning.

It requires a re Yeah, I should have mentioned the resoning just adds a -2, which allows for two dwelling unit buildings. So the um land use plan, which dictates density, that doesn't need to be amended for this. Sorry, one more followup. The staff report talks about the current district allows for single and two household residential houses. Is that correct? That might have been a typo. District or land use designation. The future land use designation would allow for that's why it doesn't need to be amended. That might be

Yeah. So the the right now it's zoned N2B neighborhood. That district only allows one unit per building unless you add the dash. Yeah. So then the reasoning would add the dash two which allows for the two units per structure. As a followup to that conversation, under the new state law for allowances of ADU on any single family lot, this could come back in a different way where you don't call it a duplex, but it could be an ADU and it will have to be approved. You're saying if this was purely all one household lots,

correct? If it didn't resone with an ADU, correct? They could add an ADU, but there are size requirements on the second unit. And the ADU could be at the basement, it could be a separate dwelling, it could be attached. So, correct. Correct. Yes. They have a potential avenue to do this by right. They could have the total number of units by right, but they couldn't have them all the same size. Thank you. Yeah. Any other questions? Okay, thank you. Is the applicant present? Please come forward. State your name and address for records and then there should be is there a signin sheet?

There is near you. Um you can sign in when you're done or now. Um and you have up to 10 minutes. Thank you.

Thank you again. Um, honorable chairperson and commissioners, my name is Mark McMury. I'm with Abacai Consulting, Civil Engineering and Land Surveyors. Uh, we've done the preliminary work on this on behalf of the Kuzi family. So, Seabuild and Kuzi Development LLC will be doing the development here. Applicant itself was Seab Build. But, um, so I I I believe we've got a a very nice project. Um, especially with the changes on the on the west side of the road where we've put in the single families adjacent to the the two larger portions of the um objections. Um, if you if we're trying to get to that slide, but um so lots one, two, and three there are single family. And then we had an objection to the to the west and an objection to the south. So So both of those then would be adjacent to single family and and I would presume it would at least alleviate some of their concern, but I I can't speak on their behalf of course, but um so seven seven duplexes along East South Line Lawn Drive. Uh we do have uh the north side. We have pushed it. We pushed the street and the north side has deeper lots so that we have the abundance on on the north to try to provide as much room as we possibly can between the single family neighbors to the north. Um the the uh density calculation I just came up with 2.6 units per acre. So um but I think the Addison Place is the assisted living facility just to the

south and adjacent to this. So we believe that it's a good transition from from that multifamily use to the single family to go to have the duplexes in between. Um the property really fits this this development very well we believe and uh we've we've basically complied with all the staff requests and we will we will comply with the uh seven conditions that they they have listed for you. Um so we we did have a neighborhood meeting. We got a lot of complaints that quite frankly I hear a lot of every time we do a resoning. Traffic's going to be terrible. Parking's not going to be enough. And and uh you know, we're going to chop down trees and and somebody told them that that property would be never never be developed and they were counting on that. Those are those are all very standard objections and I can't say that I don't have um apathy for that. But we do have a client that has invested in this property and and wants to create home opportunities for for people at De Moines. So we would uh appreciate your support and approval on this.

Any questions for the applicant? Okay, thank you very much. Thank you. Is there anyone in the audience tonight who would like to speak in favor of this item? Anyone neutral? Those who are opposed um please come forward. I assume there are multiple one at a time. State your name and address and you have up to five minutes. And do sign in on the white sheet when you're done.

Commission. Thanks commission. Thanks for taking our questions tonight. Um I'll try to be brief. I'll be mostly reading uh from my phone if that's all right. So, just a few highle points on I've talked to um a lot of people around the neighborhood. I'm Scott Colby. I live uh just north of it, just adjacent on I think the middle maybe the Colby red house right there. So, it's going to be right adjacent to me. Um uh the number one thing is uh the staff already acknowledged uh the problem with this um in changing the condition for the uh for the west side um to be only the single family. Um, we think that's kind of the case with this the problem with the whole thing um that this shouldn't be reszoned um to be multif family just because it kind of changes the character and the density of the whole neighborhood. Um so we appreciate um them meeting the condition uh for that west side, but I think that should be extended um through the whole thing. Um, so since the staff recognizes that's a problem, um, I think it should just be comprehensive, um, for the entire for the entire development. Um, so like I said, um, I think the a single family development would be a lot better. Um, it provide a better probably a better buffer for the backyards. Um, they're going to sit really close to our fence lines the way it's set up right now, the way the proposition is.

Excuse me. Can you speak closer to the mic for us? Sorry about that. Okay. Yeah. Sorry about that. Sometimes people watch online too. It's easier for them to hear. Yep. Thank you.

Um so we asked the developer at the neighborhood meeting where we had a really good turnout. Um everybody was opposed from the neighborhood that was there and uh basically they couldn't um they couldn't really answer why they couldn't just use the existing zoning for single family homes. So it sounds like it's just to get the maximum density um approved u back here. Um, and as you probably know, in 2019, uh, the same developer got denied for a a single parcel back in this lot, um, due to not wanting to, uh, extend the road, as I understand it. Um, so given that denial, this is a lot more impactful to the neighborhood. Um, I think that's why everybody's opposed to this this single family development. Um, I don't think anybody would mind if it was single family or a big mansion back there or anything else. We just um think it's kind of problem with the single family um or the multif family uh zoning. Uh the other thing um the parking um since there just going to be single garages with these pretty big units. Um everybody was had a concern um about the parking and where's where are people going to park? Uh these are pretty expensive units. So um that's probably going to be a problem with just single garages and wouldn't really fit um with the existing neighborhood. And then just the last thing, um, tree mitigation. I think there's some there's some ordinances around that. So, we just want to make sure that's um either way, no matter what happens, just want to make sure that's followed um with that tree line um right on the right on the north line there. Um, so like I said, um about 20 of us, a little over 20, uh neighborhood um members um showed up to the neighborhood meeting. Not quite um as many are here tonight, but um we're just specifically against this density directly adjacent to our established single family neighborhood. Um so if the commission approves it, uh we ask that meaningful conditions be attached uh

that go beyond what staff has recommended already to protect the existing neighborhood. Um single family homes on all lots would be the appropriate outcome in my opinion. So um that's all I had. Thank you. Thank you. Would anyone else like to speak in opposition to this item? Please come forward. Again, state your name and address for our records. Sign in on that white sheet when you're done. And you have up to 5 minutes.

Hello, my name is Clarence Fischer. I live in the neighborhood uh north of the development and I would agree with the gentleman that was just speaking about the single family homes. Um you know I am more my home is an investment for me. So one of the concerns that I have is is my property value going down. Um I mean the taxes are what they are. I mean, they continue to go up, but um if if when you start allowing all of these additional um units, um it does kind of congest the neighborhood. There's a lot of uh young families in the neighborhood. One thing that they did do, they put the roundabouts in to kind of control the traffic a little bit. Um, but that definitely um I mean you're talking about 28 additional families in a in an area that's uh probably more suited uh for 14. And while I haven't done a whole bunch of uh research, I I wonder has um the uh owner done any analysis on the um impact of current home owners in the area and the impact that it would have on us. And uh that's kind of my biggest concern. Um, I mean, I'm all for advancement and um, you know, make an opportunity developing property. Um, and I I guess if if it if you were to approve it, what would be the benefit of connecting the road? Because that that dead end there, it there is no outlet right there. If if you connect that road, which would connect these units to our neighborhood, I think it would have less impact if if you didn't connect

that road when you when you act if you access that road, you have to go all the way through the neighborhood and go out to Easter Lake Drive in order to get back out to Indianola to even get back on the main road. So, there's not like there's an actual outlet uh to the main area there. So um you know just my opinion and uh but my main concern is property value and the impact on it you know because my home is definitely an investment for me. So that's all I've got.

Thank you. Would anyone else like to speak in opposition to this item? Please also state your name and address and you have up to 5 minutes.

Hi, my name is Jesse Heisel. I live on the only home on the south side of that lot there, 5736. Um, I agree with what they have said 100%. Um, I really just feel like it should be single family homes. I would be lying if I saying if I was saying I haven't enjoyed my peace on that property the last uh 6 years I've been living there with my small family. Uh got two little girls at home that like uh playing outside and uh being on a dead end street has been very nice, not going to lie. Um it's going to be a little different and that's of course on us as a family to make sure kids aren't uh running out in traffic or anything, but um going to be something. Uh I yeah like what they were saying I I would rather see single family homes. It would be much much more um fitting for that area. Oh um the uh water retention area. I think the uh change to the homes on the west side there is much appreciated as single family. Um, but I think uh maybe centralizing those three homes or maybe even turning that whole west side into like a community park or garden area would be even better yet. I would love to see that. But yeah, that's it.

Thank you. Would anyone else like to speak in opposition?

Okay. Um, applicant, you do have up to five minutes for a rebuttal if you'd like to address any of the concerns that you heard. take way less than five minutes. So, you know, you never trust a skinny cook or a cool engineer and and uh I'm I'm not usually one that's long on words. So, um just uh you know, just to recap, three of the six on the on the west side are now going to have single family close to them. So um and that that is if if those were removed then our objection rate is way less than 20%. So um property values these these duplexes will are projected to be in the low 300s per side. So that's substantially uh compliant with the neighborhood um if not a little above it's plus or minus from from what I was looking at as far as the assessor's uh appraisals. Um so staff has recommended approval. It fits the land use plan. It's a transition from the assisted living facility to the single family. So, we believe it's a great fit and we again would appreciate your support.

Thank you. Thank you. I will now close the public hearing and leave it to the commission for discussion and mo motions. Please Chris, go ahead.

I guess uh fundamentally on the process of how this works because there's a super majority required. I think unless city council overrules fundamentally it's a sort of dead on arrival. That's the process we have. The community has sort of spoken and what they want. But I did want to raise some points that are important from the perspective from my perspective or my view to understand why I feel that that's a mistake. Um I I I think that everyone has the right to maximize the value of their property and within the community we have a significant need for more affordable homes. This provides both of those items. So I wish it would I wish we would move forward and support this. Um, I think that the comment that staff recognizes being multifamily is a problem throughout this entire neighborhood is not an accurate reflection of what was stated. I think that there was a statement that those three homes on the left would be in better keeping with the other two homes around if they're single. That was addressed, but I don't think that was a statement that is correct interpretation of staff's position, but they could clarify if they want with respect to the rest of the neighborhood. And I think the actual argument of approval indicates that is not a fair representation. Their statement um with respect to the parking pieces because we hear this a lot as well. Even the satellite image shows that there's street parking on Porter and everything else in that neighborhood above. It doesn't seem that there's any indication this would be different than what's occurring before. But if walkability is a concern and safety is a concern, the extent of the evidence, massive amounts of evidence indicate that street parking slows down streets. It makes it safer. It activates neighborhoods. It makes streets safer, neighborhoods safer when there is street parking. So saying we're going to be opposed to street parking on safety isn't factually con consistent with the evidence. Um evidence also demonstrates that property values when these types of neighborhoods are next to these neighborhoods actually increases property value. It does not put in that

it does not cause the decrease that we keep claiming. So, I wish we would just be honest with that reality that the property values here will rise and connecting roads will increase safety for uh will increase safety for emergency vehicles when they're needed and for other services when they're needed. Improving the improving your rate of snow plowing, all the other stuff that we're always often mad about in these dead-end areas like this. So, I know that we're against it, but I will be voting in favor of this because as a community, it's our responsibility to create more opportunities for re for reasonably affordable housing when we have a real crunch here. And this looks like a great development that would support that. So, I'll be voting in I'll be making voting in favor. Someone else makes a motion or making a motion if everyone's quiet. But I I really think that this is the type of thing we should be going for even if we need a supermajority council to over overturn the the voice of the community.

Thank you. What other thoughts do we have? I'd just like to add I I'm also in favor of the staff recommendation with the modification. Uh, and to add on to what Chris shared, I think it's important to also recognize a a really wellestablished best practice for transitioning land uses is on the rear yard. And I appreciate the additional effort by the applicant to do a larger buffer to make that even a uh a more thoughtful transition. And uh again, that transition to the senior living, it's a very wellestablished practice from an urban planning perspective. Please. Um,

I'd put a motion out there to pro to approve.

Okay. Any discussion on the motion to approve the staff recommendation? All in favor, please raise your right hand. Any opposed? And any passes or abstensions? Thank you. Motion passes. Excuse me. We will move to item number five. This is a request from Kent Lays for the following regarding property at 3820 11th Street and Bert will present this item for staff.

All right, madam chair, members of the commission, Bird Dross, planning staff for the city. Item number five is another reasonzoning. Uh, this one's at 382011 Street up in the Oak Park Highland Park Neighborhood Association. The request is to reszone it from an N5 one household district to a limited NX2 neighborhood mix district. And um, the reason the limited is important here is because they proposed a limited. It's not needed or not necessary to amend the land use plan because what they're proposing complies with the um density allowances in the low density residential classification on the future land use plan. The subject property is a single family or um one household dwelling at the corner of 11th Street and Garden Avenue. Um the property has historically been a one household unit. However, about three months ago, a new group home use had gone into there. Um they were issued a zoning violation in January. So, they filed this um reszoning to remedy their zoning violation. Um these um next few pages describe um what the applicant is doing here. Um I believe the applicant's here and and she can explain it uh much better than me, but she's requesting to have six residents within this um group home. Um as you'll see, our staff recommendation is to limit that to four. Um we do have some rationale for that. I'll get to, but um it would be um just six non-related people living together. There would be no um on-site supervision. It would just be um a way for people to live um with special with certain needs to live um together. Um this document here shows that uh when

selecting tenants, so there are some disqualifying factors. I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this because because the applicant should um address this more than me, but uh they would not be people with active criminal convictions. So it wouldn't necessarily be or it wouldn't be a like a correctional placement facility. But here's a photo of the house. This is from 12th Street or I'm sorry, 11th Street looking to the west. And this is um along Garden Avenue to the north. Um there is an attached garage on the property that has two garage stalls. And I should have mentioned um from the aerial it's pretty obvious that the entire property is pretty much covered by this house and the attached garage. There's really not any opportunity for additional on off streetet parking spaces. So you can see this attached twocar garage and there's one car here parked kind of um improperly encroaching into the ride ofway over the sidewalk. And then this is just showing if you look at the left, you can see the um west edge of the um structure. Then this is just another um photo looking south down 11th Street. This is a floor plan that the applicant provided. There are four bedrooms in this house. In our staff report, we kind of laid out the supplemental requirements that would be required for a a group living use. And one of those is that they would need 80 square feet of bedroom space per resident, which they would meet, but again, there's four bedrooms. The applicant is requesting six residents, so they would um if their proposal goes through, it could potentially have two bedrooms or a share. But our recommendation is to limit it to four um residents, not only because there's four bedrooms, but also because there's only two off-streetry parking spaces available and a group

living use requires one space per two residents. So if they have four residents that would require two off- streetet parking spaces which is the maximum that they um can have. Uh so um I should also mention that the NX2 district requires a group living other um to get a conditional use. So if the resoning is granted their next step would be to obtain a conditional use from the board of adjustment. And that conditional use, as all conditional uses have, is the caveat that if they become a nuisance or problematic, the zoning officer can bring them back to the zoning board of adjustment to have the conditional use amended or rescended. So, I'll go through the um consent cards. I guess here's the um neighborhood um outreach information. And I'll let the applicant um speak to this if they want, but they did just have a a couple people at their neighborhood meeting. We did get several cards back in opposition. Um again, there's more than 20% opposition to this. So, this will would also take a supermajority vote at city council in order to pass. That card is in support here, but there was no address listed there.

and this was undecided. Then here's the consent map. Again, more than 20% opposition. The undecided was up at the northwest corner just at the periphery of the 200 foot buffer. So our staff recommendation is for approval, but um we were recommending the zoning be limited to um any use of the property being limited to uses in the N current N5 district or a group living use. And then the second condition would be any group living use shall have a maximum of four residents. So, any questions for me?

Uh, Bert, if the if the zoning were denied, how could the property be used as? Um, it could be used as a um single family dwelling or it could be used there are some um family homes they're called. I don't know this the existing use that's in there today doesn't meet the family home requirement but um a family home would be allowed in the N5 district but otherwise the N5 district is primarily a one household dwelling district.

Can you explain more about what the family home designation means? um like for instance like sometimes groups of disabled people will live together and it's just considered uh that's how the yeah there's also um criteria in the state state law that defines those uses and so we really have limited ability uh to regulate them. So, if they can meet those different definitions, which I think Bert was trying to head down,

um I I will say it it is uh it's not as straightforward as a lot of our other zoning uses and things that we regulate with zoning just because of how the law regulates it, but as Bert noted, the the applicant's um business model doesn't fit that definition. Right. Yeah. Thank you. Has has the applicant agreed to the four? I don't believe so. I think they still want six. Thank you. Let them explain. With the drawing those with the drawing that was up there, were there four bedrooms in that drawing? There four bedrooms, correct?

Okay. So, the I So, you're saying the theory for limiting to four is 80 square ft plus the fact there's four bedrooms.

Primarily it was has to do with parking. Um our recommendation is really based on parking for four bedrooms would require two off streetet parking spaces which is the maximum this property could provide. And then we also do believe that just given the limit if you if I go back to the aerial you can see that um the structure pretty much covers the entire property. And so we just felt a four is a more um less intense than six, I guess, just given how compact it is. Is there a basement?

I believe there is. I'd let the applicant confirm that.

Any other questions? Okay. Thank you. Is the applicant present? Please come forward. State your name and address. Sign in on the white paper when you're done. And you have up to 10 minutes. Good evening, council members. Um, my name is Alisa Nigani, but I go by Lisa. I am the founder of Grace Hands Veteran Homes, operating as Grayson's Homes. I'm here tonight regarding the property at 3820 11 street demons hour 50313 uh to request approval for the reszoning from uh N5 neighborhood district to limited NX to neighborhood mix district allowing the convention conversion of uh this existing one household home into a group living use for older adults and veterans. I can personally attest that in my 24 plus years in health care as a health care provider including experience in elderly care and hospice care I have seen the challenges that unhoused adults face when trying to access essential services. Many older adults and veterans who have been displaced or are un or

unhoused cannot receive home health care, hospice care, or even access social security or disability benefits if they do not have a permanent address. Grayson's Homes provides a stable permanent address allowing these residents to live safely in the community while accessing the services they need. This is not a halfway house or a healthc care facility. It's a shared home designed to provide long-term permanent residency for those who have nowhere else to turn. Um, our uh home serves older adults and veterans aged 50 and above on fixed income like uh social security and disability. Individuals who are independent yet benefit from a structured supportive home environment. Residents who grew up in this community, attended lo attended local schools and are now seeking stability after life circumstances such as loss of a spouse, mental health challenges or loss of family support led to their displacement. Each resident is screened to ensure they are a good fit for the home and the neighborhood. We do not accept uh residents who may uh disrupt the home or the community. This ensures a safe stable environment for all residents and neighbors. Last night we had a neighborhood meeting with uh the neighborhood uh and two neighbors attendant. Um they shared their concerns which included parking uh property man maintenance and they also shared the history of the home. Most of our residents do not own cars and primarily use uh public transit or limited travel. So parking and traffic impact is

minimal. We we assure them that the house rules that we have created with Grayson's homes oversight guarantee their home is wellmaintained. Uh neighbors expressed concern about prior turnover. I shared with neighbors that our residents seek permanent housing and disruptive behaviors, parties or excessive traffic will probably never occur. I also extended my phone number and made it clear that we can be on site within 20 to 25 minutes if any issues arise. The staff recommended approval for four residents, but the home is designed to safely accommodate 5 to six maximum. Limiting to four would make housing financially unstable for our residents on fixed incomes, potentially forcing them back into homelessness. With a lead resident and Grayson's homes oversight, the home is fully capable of safely housing a minimum of five, maximum of six residents while maintaining stability and safety for the neighborhood. We are committed to proactively addressing any issues that may arise. Residents share common spaces, dining room and bathroom, all with adequate square footage. The population is low impact older adults mostly without cars who value stability, quiet and community. Should challenges arise, we take immediate action to ensure their home and neighborhood remain safe, stable, and well-maintained. We are transparent with neighbors and their community and plan to be, and our goal is always to prevent issues before they occur. Approving the zoning will allow older adults and veterans in need to live

safely in the community with dignity. This is a solution to a pressing housing issue in our city. Stable housing for adults who cannot afford market rate options and cannot access services without a permanent address. This home will integrate fully into the neighborhood with minimal impact and oversight while providing a forever home for residents who have often experienced displacement and loss. We respectfully request the council's approval to reszone the property at uh 38201 street neighborhood mixed and please allow five minimal to six residents to live safely and permanently. I would gladly take any questions. Thank you so much for your time.

Thank you. Any questions for the applicant? So, do you currently have other properties that you're doing this? We are in the process of trying to close on the next property and due through this process. We promise to absolutely follow and we are so grateful for the city staff cuz they have been guiding us on to properly get everything on track so we able to move forward legally without having issues. Okay. So, this is your first project then? It is the first one that we have residents in. What is the average rent that you'll be charging these individuals?

We've been trying to work with Paul County Community Services, but the minimum starts at $700 and it just goes up depending and unfortunately we were working closely with uh P County Mental Health and Disability, but that program got shut down is one of the government shut uh cut off programs that got shut down. So right now we're working with uh other programs that may come across so we can assist with providing a place and financial assistance for the residents that we have. So all of them currently they use their social security and disability to kind of cover the charge for them to maintain the home.

So your disqualifying factors are unstable mental health conditions. Yet

we we do allow uh depression level one and two and that is only people with depression that mostly when you have depression uh is ever you just don't feel like doing anything for maybe a day or two but the only uh limit that we do accept is depression one and two. If someone needs more uh um services or is more than what we provide or cannot function in an independent living space, then we we kindly decline those uh referrals, but we are able to refer them to a a better service that can serve them. But we h we we are strictly on our disqualifi disqualification factors because we don't want to bite more than we can chew and if we are not equipped for a case, then we decline it.

Okay. Thank you. Um I think Carolyn already asked the first part of the question. So this is your first project. You hadn't done any in the past before this?

In the past we did have a house but that one got shut down. And through that process of that house getting shut down is when we did find out that there is a way out to do things the proper way. the first house that we had on uh 9inth Street when we received uh the notice from the city, we were not aware that there is a way to get things into order. So that's when we started this process to try and get things in order. That way we can continue to to provide um homes for those that do qualify to come into our homes.

Okay. Yeah. So, I think the what I was kind of getting at was so you didn't know you were in zoning violation when you originally started the project or did you know you were not allowed to have six unrelated people in there when you took this project on?

Yes, sir. we and I'll be honest with you, I just was a uh a passionate person who've worked uh I'm still a hospice provider and uh speaking from experience, if a client or a patient is in the shelter, we cannot go in there and provide services. If you are unhoused and you don't have a stable home, you can't even get home healthcare to come assist you. There's nothing that you can do to get services that can assist you. So when we started I just wanted to provide a solution for people that I saw that okay this population needs help and this is the population that we are more experienced in but we are working hard to try and get things on track and work closely with the staff here moving forward to make sure that we do everything according to how it's supposed to get done.

Okay. Um maybe one last question. Is this a uh for-profit or nonprofit business? It's a forprofit. I have a question. Yes, sir. How do you plan to house five to six individuals when there's only four bedrooms?

The rooms are pretty a big size, especially the one in the back. Uh one one room is single single single and the one in the back is big enough to have at least two uh residents. So, at least five is what we're asking for. And then that could be comfortable for anyone. And in the uh neighborhood meeting, I did share with the neighbors that they're absolutely welcome to come and look, but we'll just need a notice in advance just for respect of the people that are in the home cuz we want to be as transparent as possible. We definitely don't want to cause issues in the neighborhood. But our transparency and building that relationship with the neighbors is absolutely priority number one to us. And then my other question is um it seems like the organization does not own this property.

No sir, we partner with owners that are willing to uh give their homes to us and this was the best location that you can find for this specific group.

Most owners don't want to even open their homes to uh these kind of uh group settings. So that's that has been most of the challenge. But through this process that we're grateful for, we're looking into getting our own homes that we can we can own in the appropriate uh uh uh zoning uh areas moving forward. But the the main challenge has been owners uh kind of hesitant with allowing us to go ahead and uh uh use their homes. So this is this owner has been uh gracious to uh trust us and say okay he saw that okay you guys want to help people why not and then we are absolutely responsible for anything that happens in the home. So our main focus we just want to do things the correct way so we can continue to do what we have to do and um we take full responsibility about how we started things. We just we're moving on passion without understanding you know you have to obey the the rules of the land and we are doing everything to correct that and moving forward that way we know okay this is the process we're supposed to go before we even move forward now

so when you say that if you don't get five to six people allowed because of financial restrictions are you referring to the rent that's being charged or the profit margin, the rent that's being charged. Okay. Yes. Thank you. And I can I can uh uh privately share how much residents uh pay for with member council members if needed to just so you can see it for yourself that really it's really not for profit at all. Just for your awareness, we're only recommending we're a commission recommending to the city council. Okay. So they will ultimately have to make the decision.

Okay. We're just recommending body. Thank you so much. May I ask a question, please? Absolutely. Um could you show your uh letter head again on the screen for me, please? Or Bert, could you do that? Yeah, that's it. Look, I'm I'm I'm impressed by the kinds of residents and you know their their challenges that you address here. Yes, sir. uh many kinds of health, mental and physical health and other, you know, challenges, substance abuse.

Um I noticed that um you've talked about a resident in the in the in the building. Is that true that that is part of the plan? I'm sorry. Well, my question is this. You mean pardon me? Do you mean a staff person? Yeah. Um I I'm and I'm asking the question because um I'm wondering if there's an administrator to a a resident that will be helping administer the property because let me finish because you know you have a number of different kinds of issues each of which can be unique

and you know it's difficult working with with one person that has a challenge and I think with with three or four or five or six there would be many additional challenges. So, um I my question is are you planning for someone of the resident nature that would help manage the property to address problems to help people interact with one another to help individual people? Because just having them live in the house without some kind of professional guidance seems to me to be a little bit of a real challenge. Okay, just just to clarify, the house lead does not provide care. Um, one of the residents Iowa home care comes to provide cares. She has a nurse that comes to see her. She she can function independently, but she just struggles with like personal cares. So we do have community uh advocates that do come to the home and most of the clients that come to us are referred to us from Mercy Hospital or Broadlands. So they come with a care team that comes to see them even if it's once a month. So the house lead is just a resident that just make sure house rules are not being broken. And specifically in this home uh we have four ladies. uh one is a veteran widow and after her husband passed away she just could not stabilize after that so she came to us. So although those are our disqualification factors but we're able to kind of get outside assistance for residents that might need that assistance. So yes to answer I hope that kind of answers your question. We do have outside resources that come and

assist like our home care comes uh and um uh PO County Community Advocates also do come for those clients that do need extra assistance. But the the ladies that are in this specific house uh one just needs assistance with her uh personal care which Iowa Homeare comes and provides that and the other ones gets a community advocate that comes to see her and take it through to the community once a month. Any other questions for the applicant? Oh, I just had a quick question. So you did you your first project was on 9inth Street. Ninth Street. Yes, ma'am.

So what happened? What's what's going on with that project? That was the first home that we had and um uh the inspector came and uh we were shut down. But the letter that we received uh in the in the space of what to do to correct the issue, it only said uh leave the house. So it's only after me speaking and sharing my story, I did hear that. No, I actually went to speak with the inspector and then he said then you should have called me and then I would have kind of guided you on how to fix the issue.

So was this did so the one on Ninth Street did they give you that house then? Is this another one where an individual gave you the house? Yes. The owner the owner gave you the house? Yes, ma'am. I don't you you didn't acquire you were you didn't pay for it? No. No, we did. Oh, you actually owned it. Okay. No, no, we didn't own it. Uh, you rented it. I partner with the with the with the owner and they wanted they gave it to us and trusted us with it. You said rent. You You pay them. Absolutely. Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. She's renting and then sub. Yeah.

Any further questions? I got one couple quick. Is Kent your landlord? Sorry, sir. Kent lease is your landlord? He is. Yeah, he is. Was he the landlord at the other one, too? No, sir. Okay. Um, and do you have staff or is you just just

Everyone is independent. Everyone can function independently. Um if but again with our disqualification factors if someone needs uh more care than you know we able to provide then I'm able to refer them to a specific uh group home or specific uh nursing home or we work closely with um Mercy Hospital social services as well that they're able to refer to nursing homes or any other facility that can uh can assist. So if someone requires more um more uh health care then we unfortunately decline those those uh those clients because we're not equipped um to provide or serve or our space is not equipped for um that those kind of cases.

Yeah. Uh group homes a lot to a lot to manage and a lot to handle for sure. Right. So we we we we refer them out. So we work closely with uh with some group homes. So, if we do get a referral that uh requires more assistance, then I'm able to refer them to a specific nursing home or to a specific group home because our setting then will not serve them. We're not equipped for that kind of case. So, you're currently in the house now and the city came and did an inspection and that's why you're here because they you were not Yes, sir. Okay. Yes, sir. Got it. Okay. Any more questions for the applicant? Thank you.

Thank you. Um, is there anyone in the audience tonight who would like to speak in favor of this item? Anyone neutral? Anyone opposed? Please come forward one at a time. State your name and address. Don't be shy. You have up to five minutes. and please do sign in on the sheet there when you're done.

Thank you for this opportunity. I'm Brian Jones. I live at 1118 Garden. I'm two houses away. Um, the first thing I want to say is if you could go back to the pictures and the floor plan, but the pictures of the garage the that so in the the two garages there in the floor plan that is drawn out, it shows a common room. I don't know how big that is, but the garages still have garage stuff in them. So, if there's there's something a skew with that that drawing. Um, but we were at the I was at the meeting last night, um, the neighborhood meeting, and we were told that this her corporation is renting to own the house, that it was never given, but they're renting to own it, so they will have it at the end. But the back bedroom is like a threeseason porch type thing that has big windows around it um in the back. So I just don't see how six people could live in there comfortably. I'd been in the house when the original owners owned it and I'd been in the house after they had left and the another person was remodeling it or fixing it up and um I just I can't see that. And then parking. So how that car is parked now is how they park on that all the time. This usually the sidewalks blocked. Um there's no drive. The space for the garages are just so small that a car cannot park in them. And there's been a lot of past issues with

the house. And I know that the one card you got said that there's been several instances when there's been police there and ambulances there. So, there has been things going on there. and um it's just something that has been a problem in the neighborhood in the past. So, I thank you for my your time. Thank you. Would anyone else like to speak?

Please state your name and address as well. and you have up to 5 minutes and sign in when you're done.

My name is Julie Traver and I did notice I I live right next door to that house. So, I am the house that is directly to the west and I'm not red. I should be red cuz I was a no on my card. Um I just think that this property is not the right place for this. No matter how noble the goal and the stated goals may be, uh it is a small property. There is no yard space. Um putting six unrelated adults into a house that small um especially adults who come from a transient kind of potentially disturbed background is just nothing but a recipe for uh turmoil. And this this property, as Brian mentioned, has been a problem the whole time it's been a rental house. Uh we've had just a revolving door of people in and out of this house. We've had police, we've had people trying to run other people down in the streets. We've had yelling. We've had garbage being left on my property uh on the curb. It's been a mess. And so with this, it's like, oh boy, here we go again. This sounds great. It sounds really good. You know, who doesn't want to help homeless people? Who doesn't who doesn't want to help people who are in in difficulties? Um but in practice, I just don't see it working really well. And there have been police ambulance um on the street. Not huge disturbances, but still disturbances. Um, it's a narrow street. When you get the fire truck and the ambulance and the cops on there, the whole street is blocked off. So, it's not like you don't notice that it's happening because it's pretty obvious something's

going on down there. I can't see people who have troubled pasts sharing a bedroom. If you're going to put six adults in there and two of them are gonna obviously you're going to have double up. Um, I just feel that if you have people with mental illness, with disabilities, um, with troubled past, they really need to be in a bigger house and they need to be on a property that has more space for them to be able to get away from each other and to have their own place to go. And my house is small. I have two adults living in my house, myself and my son. And you know, we're related, but just the difference between living with your son and living with the spouse, huge difference, you know, because of just how you relate to that other person. And in my house, you know, if somebody couldn't go out in the backyard or out in the front yard or, you know, and my house is probably just a little bit smaller than that house. So, the the the amount of common space, I just I can't see it. I think it's it's going to be a a very another transient situation with people coming and going. Even if the stated idea is to have these people have a forever home, um it's a population that isn't really I think I'm getting all jumbled up here, but I I just can't see it being a forever home for people who aren't related and for people who have who have these problems. The

other concern that I have is that there's no uh licensed professional, and I know they say we don't give care, but there's no licensed professional to be the referee here. Um saying there's a lead resident. Okay, this is just one of people who has had troubles in their lives and can't live by themselves. Basically saying they're not following the rules. It's not going to be someone who can mediate problems or be good in an emergency. So, um I think that's about everything I have to say. Thank you.

Thank you. Would anyone else like to speak in opposition? If so, please come forward. Again, state your name and address for our records and you have up to five minutes. And do sign in when you're finished.

My name is Loretta Stubs. I'm a resident of 1125 Garden. I've probably been there the longest because it's October of 76 when we moved in. Benle houses all around and it was very peaceful, nice, quiet street. Um, I also had the privilege of working at Broadons in mental health, impatient behavioral health at Broadons and I can tell you things can escalate very fast and very high where if it takes 20 to 25 minutes for a staff person to show up, that's not going to cut it. That's not going to help them. for getting hurt, needing to be separated from each other. The other thing is we'll all be vigilantes for watching and needing to call the police and just hoping that someone shows up very quickly to get these people apart from each other if that's what happens. Mental health is so unpredictable. So, I guess that's what I want to say is that I just don't feel like this has been thought out long enough and to be in a resident residential area. We have Oak Park School not not even a mile away and we have a lot of little children in the morning when I go out that are walking to school and it would just be um a concern and a threat all the time for those little kids that are out there. Some of them have an adult with them going to school. Some of them do not. So it needs to be thought out a little better. Also, what Julie said, that's a lot of close living for people that have never lived with each other before. And that's what happened inside the um area

of Broadons in Behavioral Health. They had never been with each other, but they had to be in very close living conditions. It was not ideal. It just wasn't. We were always in fear and I did get punched at that job. It can happen very fast and you don't see it coming. So, I just wanted to say that. Thank you very much. Thank you. Anyone else like to speak in opposition?

Good to see you. So, uh, my name is Aaron Shinflu. Um, I live at 1135 Garden Avenue. Um, I've been in the neighborhood for about 20 years. My brother lives next door. My mom lives at 382210th Street. And, uh, um, my biggest concern is that, um, it's just not the right fit for our neighborhood. It's a real quiet neighborhood. Um, like Loretta said, the elementary schools um, right there. There's a lot of kids, a lot of old people, and uh the house has always been an issue for our neighborhood, and I'm concerned this is just going to escalate that times four or more. Um without somebody living there that could, you know, basically monitor things. Um the the response time of 20 minutes, I don't think, is is near long enough if something were to go south. And with that many people living in that small of an area, I I don't see how they wouldn't be at each other's throats. It's It's not big enough for six people, for sure. And there's no yard space at all. And um the parking would be an issue, too. Um and then property values would, you know, make my property value go down having this in our neighborhood cuz I don't it just doesn't seem like the right fit for our neighborhood at all. Um, I guess that's all I have. Thank you.

Thank you. Would anyone else like to speak in opposition? Okay, applicant, you do have five minutes for a rebuttal if you'd like to address any of those concerns. Thank you.

Thank you so much. Uh first I want to say I absolutely respect and understand the neighbors concerns and I just want to absolutely clear um the four ladies that are in the house uh these are not mental health uh patients. Again with the mental health uh we only accept uh clients that struggle with depression. If someone has um like personal personal uh uh schizophrenic or anything like that, we do not accept those kind of clients because we do understand that that client needs more care and and shared living space will not serve them. And also most of our clients uh because there's a stigma around uh uh homelessness and what I've discovered is not everyone that's homeless has been on drugs or comes from a very background. life happened. Most of our clients like we have we've came across clients that maybe personally I have a youngest son who's just di diagnosed with a delayed mental uh uh learning and uh mom will take care of this client and then when mom passes away there's no one to take care of them. So most of our clients like the veterans and the veteran spouses that we've had when she was married husband took care of everything and was in charge of everything and after husband broken heart and divorce can alter somebody's life and our clients don't have bad background something happened that's why we have those disqualification factors and when we do meet with clients especially if they are being referred from Mercy or any other community homeless advocate. Uh the clients do sign a release form so we can

go ahead and look back uh and look and look at their background. But I just want to really clarify that the clients that are in our homes are not mental health patients. uh if anything they have depression and level one and two but with medication they're able to function just properly but there's absolutely no one that has uh like a disruptive mental health that they are dealing with those kind of cases we're not equipped and they will not be uh suitable for our living space so I just want to clarify that like they don't come from uh bad background or anything like that it's just something happened divorce happened mom passed away and now the the client could not manage life but none of them come from like really disruptive backgrounds at all. So these are the factors that we look for before we even accept someone to come into our homes. And again the house lead uh the house lead um is just to make sure that house rules are being followed. No one is is crossing lines like one of our house rules out of respect for the shared living space there are no overnight stays. So it's just normal house rules just to make sure people don't smoke inside the uh the home, they smoke outside or no one is having anybody stay overnight. So we those are the type of issues that the house leader kind of uh looks after. And as far as ambulance being called, we do have a young lady that uses a walker. And unfortunately, if an emergency happens, because we are dealing with a specific population, they do have the right to call an ambulance for help to come and get them and take them to the hospital. And we do use those services because that's what they are there for. But these clients are so grateful when they are able to able to go to the hospital get the care they need and still have a home to come home to where in other places if you go into the hospital this

specific client used to be at cyst but when she started struggling and having incontinence issues she could not be there and when we got her referral she was terrified could not open her hotel door could not get home healthcare to go into a hotel so she's grateful to be in our home And unfortunately, if she needs help, she has to call the ambulance to come and get her. But it gives her rest to know that she has a home to come back to, that she won't lose a bed because she went to the hospital or she'll get kicked out because she went to the hospital. Although I respect and absolutely understand the neighbor's concern, but I I just want to be clear that these are not mental health patients. And with my history in healthc care, if someone needs more help, we do not we we do not accept them because we're not equipped for them. So I just want to be clear like these these individuals don't have like a crazy background. It's just something happened. It's either divorce happened or spouse passed away, broken heart divorce and then they just got unhoused because they couldn't manage life after that dramatic change in their life. Now, we're not going to claim that things will always be perfect. That's impossible. And I'll be lying to you guys. But if anything that uh arise again, my number, you can call my phone any time of the night, any day.

Ma'am, your five minutes is up if you'd like to wrap up your thoughts. Thank you. Thank you. I'll close the um public hearing now and open it up to the commission for discussion and motions, please. I think I'm the only one here that's experienced um the Grace Homes, Grace Hands Homes. So um while I think it's of value and I appreciate what the what the neighbors are saying, I I'm just going to throw this out here. I'm not going to support staff.

Thank you. Other thoughts?

Yes, I have one. Um I I I agree in in many ways about this. Um and these these problems come before the commission, not infrequently. Um, one just a couple of months ago arose on a a commercial property on Uklid uh that um uh a person bought and so forth and then came and found out that we had denied the the use of the of the commercial property as as uh commercial property. It was very sad because the the woman that had bought the property had bought the property in good faith thinking that the zoning was appropriate for what she wanted to do and in fact it was not. She lost whatever she had invested in the property and that was very sad. This property is different. the renter has acquired the property hoping to develop it as a you know as a as a rental property. If we deny it or if the council divi uh denies it that is a case. However, the developer is has renting to own and so if uh he or she is out she's out three months of rent. she's not out the whole price of the co of the property that a neighbor on Uclid Avenue has suffered. So, I just want to mention that. Um, and then, um, I I really do have this question about the needs for these for these people that will be living in this, uh, in this facility because they really do have needs and they have immediate needs. And if, you know, if the the applicant was willing

to live there and help them out uh, as a colleague, well, that would be, I think, something very positive. But to have a rental property with people that need real needs, but not having anyone there actually that will be helping them find and you know deal with those I think is a real challenge. So I'm going to vote no. Thank you. Other thoughts? I have a a question for the applicant. It's is this economically viable with four residents? Okay, thank you.

Just to clarify in case it didn't pick up, the applicant responded no to the question. I do have a followup for the applicant on that line. Uh, can we have her come? Would that be all right? Well, the lawyer would have to address that. Is it okay to reopen? It wouldn't necessarily be reopening it for the public. It's just answering questions. So, I'm fine. Okay. Can you come forward and answer the question? Thank you. The question is, you stated multiple times you have four ladies living there now. Yes, ma'am.

So, is it currently economically working? Honestly, I've been covering some of it just so they have a home. Okay. Any other questions for the applicant while she's here? Okay. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. I will um

question. Yes. So, we got two up here. I think my first take is I I guess I I do understand the mechanisms behind the nimism. At the same time, I think it is important to identify the ind the evidence indicates, especially when we have restrictions that are like those in place, that these types of homes are a net benefit to the community, they're a net benefit to those who are needing these services. Um, and I I don't know the background of the operator, but if we're looking at this on the surface of should this type of use be something we should support and should we be supporting it at a size where people have access to safe housing, that I think we really really should be in favor of. I would personally be in favor of this being to five if five is what's necessary for this to cover. I understand we're a super super majority over right here because I think too often, you know, we can't just tell individuals in our community that they need to go find a bigger space when they don't have the money to do it. If we can safely have these houses and with restrictions here, there doesn't seem to be an indication we do have the type of issues that are going to be causing anything that would be more expected outside of what you would see in any other domestic disturbance situation. I live down the street from I lived by a group home that had five people in it and down two two more doors down was where the police went all the time because I had domestic disturbances constantly with two people. So just saying that we have five individuals who have had bad backgrounds or had challenging backgrounds shouldn't be something especially with uh w with this what sound like mischaracterizations of the risks of mental health which is aggressively problematic for us. So I would support a motion for this to be approved with five but I do understand we're in a supermajority situation anyway.

Chris are you making that motion? I'm I we have someone else to speak. So please go ahead.

Um first of all uh if you have mental illness that isn't a me criminal by any means. Um, second of all, uh, these type of residents have a hard time finding homes for sure. And, um, group homes are very necessary in our community. And if they're coming from the hospital and we want people to integrate into society and be healthy individuals, they need a home to have that transition whether it's short-term or long-term. So that is the gap in America frankly that uh stops the revolving door of going back to the hospital all the time. So this is very much needed. Uh, I will say though that um I do know the landlord and uh I think that I could speak that he's familiar with group homes. I know that enough. Um, and I know uh I don't know anything about this project other than what I've been told tonight, but uh I think you need to negotiate your rent. And I think that I would support uh uh staff recommendation, not five. But I know enough that uh people with mental illness or people struggling or whatever, four in a home is plenty. And um I think you should be able to make that work. And I would assume you can negotiate to make that profitable for yourself and your business. And um uh yeah, I don't want to take anything away from Lisa's dream of helping the community here. Um maybe you don't have a good track record, but I'm willing to give you another shot.

Thank you. Um maybe I just have one comment is that I do believe uh Lisa said at four she could not make the project work financially. So unless we were to approve five or six that four would not even work. So I don't think it would make sense to approve it at four as staff has recommended in at in this instance. then we should let that uh go and deny it and then let the next applicant um try to make those changes. I would like to Is that a motion? R

I'm still I would love to hear from the rest of my fellow commissioners. If does want me to make a motion, I will.

I would just say one more thing before you make a motion. Um, I have some concerns with the lack of bedrooms for a fifth person. I am in support of the project uh in the concept. I just don't think that five or six people would make sense. I think if you have four bedrooms and the staff rationale that I agree with. But furthermore, since that has already been shared by somebody else, this project is facing an uphill battle with majority of council and then it has to go to the zoning board of adjustment. So, there's also a couple of other things to consider, but if it remains a four, I will likely vote in favor of it.

Thank you, Johnny. Any other comments? I I would make a closing comment. Given the long-term economic viability of it at four people, um I don't think the resoning's necessary. So, I'm going to deny the resoning. Recommend. Make that motion. Any discussion on the motion to deny the request including the staff recommendation of four units that properly? You're just moving denial of the request. You don't need to talk about the staff recommendation. That's not the request.

Thank you. All in favor of the motion, please raise your right hand. Thank you. All opposed.

Thank you. And abstensions.

Thank you. I don't know what the count was. I had um six in favor of the motion and five um opposed and one abstension. So the motion uh carries, right? Correct. Motion carries. Thank you. Um that closes our meeting tonight. The only announcement or information that I've got is a reminder to the commissioners that this is our only meeting in March. We will reconvene here on April 2nd. Are there any other items commissioners?

Uh, no. I was just going to make sure we welcome the new commission members, but you did that at the beginning. So, if you haven't already got to say hi to them, please do so. Um, and appreciate everybody's time tonight. Thank you. Thank you.