Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

feel so empty. I know. Good evening everybody and welcome to the July 23rd 2025 planning and zoning commission meeting of the town of Chesake Beach. We welcome everybody and uh thank you for your participation in our or observation I should say since you're online to our meeting here tonight. Um I would like to call the meeting to order and roll call and we're going to ask each member to say who they are. Starting Ken Rupk. Thank you. Larry Brown and I'm Cindy Greenold. Mary Sue Gryman. Kelly Han.

Thank you. And then I would like to mention that we have two commission members not here tonight. We have Chris Smith. Please note that Chris Smith's absent. And we also have Rachel Weaver absent. Um and I'd like to now stand for the pledge of allegiance. Thank you. One indivisible with liberty and justice. Okay.

Now we have the approval of the July 23rd, 2025 planning commission agenda. Do I hear motion to second? Any comments, questions, issues? Seeing none, do I have a v um a vote, please? All in favor? I. Next, I have uh approval of the minutes of the June 25th, 2025 planning commission meeting. Motion. Any second? Any questions, issues? Okay. All in favor of approving? I

number five. Any public comments? Seeing none, we will move on to the old business at hand, which is of course back to signage. And if you please note, the additional items on your desk are referenced in at uh one of the parts that we want to talk about tonight, which is going to be fines, enforcement, fees, etc. So these are basically reference materials so that when we come come to that section of the agenda you will you can quickly take a look at it and and note that if you like what it says or if you want to make any any notations in the uh other section please please bring that up. Okay so let's start if you don't mind on an area that we have not gotten to yet. It's the last area that we really need to go to before we get back to the definitions and that is on the very last well next to last page was page 19 L non-conforming signs. Um let's first ask our our planner Miss Franklin to go over non-conforming signs and see what she has to tell us about that section.

Okay. Um so the non-conforming signs regula regulations um are partly just to say that if you have a non-conforming sign you can't you can't change it and keep a non-conforming sign. If you're going to change your sign you have to bring it into performance. Um, it also addresses the signs that are currently non-conforming and may not precisely conform with the ordinance that we have, but they've been in place for a while. So, we're talking about the electronic messaging centers that exist in town mainly. So what it's saying is if you have an electronic messaging center, you can now once this gets adopted, you can apply for a permit, an after the fact permit within 60 days of this ordinance adoption. And then you can be granted that permit subject to conditions needed to comply with this ordinance and protect traveling public from all this legal ease that's in here provided by the lawyer. And so that allows people who are currently non-conforming to come up to conformance without the extreme cost of eliminating or replacing an EMC. And um you have mentioned that our attorney has looked and reviewed the uh material and approves of the language that's in here.

Just item C I coordinated with the attorney on early on. Um so the attorney will need to review the entire

Sure. Exactly. But at least C. So that we I'm sure that all the businesses are going to be mostly concerned about C since almost everybody here has an issue with compliance at some point. So C is a very important point part of this entire section. Um, it does give everybody the opportunity to be in compliance um without I think too much expense as uh Miss Franklin just said. Has everybody had time to review that? I know at one time uh you may have, I don't know, but if you haven't read it, we should probably when can you read it out loud the whole thing just to make sure that we're clear on I think letter C is the most important point to this whole

Sure.

non-conforming signs section. Signs that have been erected without a permit in violation of this chapter that have been in place for more than two years shall be allowed to remain provided the property owner fills out and applies for after the-act permit within 60 days of the adoption of this ordinance. The permit may be granted by the zoning administrator subject to conditions reasonably necessary to protect the traveling public from unnecessary distractions and to ensure that the owners of such signs do not receive in a manner substantially unfair to the owners of signs lawfully erect erected. Such conditions may be addressed by way of example such things as the degree of illumination the and the manner in which the signs flash or change content as regulated by this chapter. The owner of a sign granted a permit under this section may not replace the sign with another sign whether or not substantially similar in size, content, or appearance that does not conform with the provisions of this chapter.

Okay. Thank you for for making this really clear as far as uh all the details. Any questions or um yes um I think there's a word missing when we talk about um subject to conditions reasonably necessary and it says to ensure I think it's the fifth line down to ensure that the owners of such signs do not receive in a manner and I think there's right a a word accommodations or there's some word that's missing. Yes. Yep.

Yes. Um yeah. Permission or this this was part specifically drafted by the attorney. Um so does not re do not receive um benefits maybe with I think benefits is might be the word. There's such some if you know if they're receiving they have to receive something. Benefits is perfect. Yeah.

Okay. Let's read read it with the word benefits in there. You want to go ahead and read it with the word benefits in there then? Signs that have been erected without a permit in violation of this chapter that have been in place for more than two years shall be allowed to remain provided the property owner fills out and applies for an after-the-act permit within 60 days of the adoption of this ordinance. The permit may be granted by the zoning administrator subject to conditions reasonably necessary to protect the traveling public from unnecessary distractions and to ensure that the owners of such signs do not receive benefits in a manner substantially unfair to the owners of signs lawfully erected. Yep.

Some conditions may address by way of example such things as the degree of illumination and the manner in which such signs flash or change content as regulated by this chapter. The owner of a sign granted a permit under this section may not replace the sign with another sign whether or not substantially similar in size, content, or appearance that does not conform with the provisions of this chapter.

Thank you. Appreciate you reading that again. Is everybody Is everybody good with how that sounds and what that entails? What that means? I think it probably does complete that sentence uh better than it was before. Thank you, um, Commissioner Bryceman. I appreciate you bringing that up. Okay. So, uh, if there are no changes to that section except for the word benefits, which we've added, you've added obviously there. Yeah. Let's go on to M. So, I'm sorry. So, on this uh you have a sign and you can't replace it. Okay.

If your sign is nonconforming with this chapter, like say it's an EMC that's bigger than is allowed when that sign's life has, you know, been used up, right? So, it now needs to be replaced. It can't be replaced with a non-conforming sign. Its replacement sign needs to conform to the chapter. But as long as you have this sign, right, then as long as it still has a lifespan, it may be repainted or repaired.

Yes. as long as it's not exceeding 50% or more of the existing value of real property improvements. So, if you want to keep your non-conforming sign and you decide, I'm just going to take out the whole EMC and replace it with another EMC, you can't do that because it was not it was nonconforming. We're allowing you to keep it so you don't incur the expense of having to take it down and purchase a whole new one, but when it's time to replace it, you need to bring it into conformance. And that's what this is trying to say. You obviously don't feel that the wording is sufficient or adequate somehow.

Question. So I'm obviously don't think the wording is sufficient. Well, I need to hear from you. I want to hear your thoughts about it. I appreciate anything any ideas for an explanation. Well, was that good enough for you? Yeah. Oh, okay then. We're good. Okay. Thank you. I'm sorry. I just want to make sure that we're all working on the same thing here. Explain.

Thank you. Okay. Let's um if there are no further questions or issues, we're going to move to M violations. Um so, we've got the general regulations. Uh failure failure to remove any temporary signs within the time prescribed shall result in the town having the sign removed, of course, at their expense. um enforcement. Now, this is where I asked to bring in the other reference material because it refers in B to 290-30. Uh and you of course have that um um which is of course referencing the the violation uh impacts, the costs and etc. Um, and we were noticing that this was amended in, this is what I was trying to figure out is when this was amended. I want to say this was amended in 2024, but I'm I it looks on the top on the top like it was amended in 2005 and six, but then and then it goes down to 1121 2024. So, it's very recent. So, I don't think we need to recommend any uh changes in any of those. um fines. And this would be a whole another issue that we'd want to address if we were going to change anything. Um then we go on to 2C. um if it's unsafe, the public works and zoning or zoning administrator uh will be able to order a sign to be removed or made safe. Um and then it has to be complied with within 5 days, etc. So, it looks like, as far as I'm concerned, everything looks like it's pretty much

similar to many other towns that I've been reading um in the enforcement and violations area. And if you've read any of this before or you remember any of this, is there anything else that anybody wants to add to it, change? Now, this so this has been in our we have not changed any of that. That's that's not anything that's been changed, has it, Miss Frank? That was with that's been in our code for at least a year. Huh?

The section 27 29027 you mean? No, I'm talking about the violations and enforcement page 20 and 21. All that you mean M of this draft? Yes. I'm sorry. Yes. This this piece has been part of the draft. Yes. This has been in our code for at least a year or so. Is not in the code. It's in the draft. So if Well, I'm referring to Okay. So these this is in our current code. Yes, that is in our current code.

The the M letter M have is that not currently in our code? Um, so anything in your draft that is blue is different from your current coat. I couldn't even tell if that was blue. I hate to say it. I couldn't. I was I was thinking, is that a different color? No, it's slightly purple. It really is an odd shade of blue. But anyway, so I wasn't sure if that was actually blue. So when I was asking, I was seriously saying, is that Yeah. something that Okay, there we go. Have to try and find a color that prints different better. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Orange or red or something. It's very bright here.

Um Um Anyway, it looks like language that I've seen. And did we take this from another town or how did we get this language then? Um do you remember? I don't remember. Um this was one of the first things that we did. Um,

okay. Let me let me since nobody seems to have read this, let me just completely read it to let me go. Okay, I've already read one. Two, enforcement. A, any sign that is abandoned or otherwise in violation of this chapter must be removed. B, any sign in violation of this chapter shall be subject to the fines and remedies set forth in section 290-30 of this zoning ordinance, which of course you've got here. When, and then we've got C. Whenever the public works or zoning administrator deems a sign to have been become structurally unsafe or is endangering the safety of a building or premises or the public safety. One, they shall order that such a sign be made safe or removed. Two, such order shall be complied within 5 days of receipt thereof by the person, firm, or corporation owning or using the sign or the owners of the building or premises on which such unsafe sign is a fixed or erected. Three, if the sign is not repaired or removed within this time frame, the town may remove and dispose of the sign and charge the cost of removal and disposal to the owner. Some of it sounds redundant to me. Am I rereading the same thing over and over again, or is it not redundant?

You did read it twice, actually. Well, okay, then. B. All enforcement measures found in section 29027 shall apply to enforcement of this section. E. Temporary signs permitted by this chapter if not removed by the sign owner within the permitted time frame may be removed by the town of Chesby Beach and destroyed. Three, any entity that places non-compliant exempt signs or fails to remove such signs shall a receive notification of a violation from the town of Chesley Beach B after three such violations by the same entity. This entity will not be permitted to display exempt signs within the town for a period of six months. The question, yes.

So, my understanding is the signs are pretty expensive depending on what the signs are. Mhm. Is it feasible for us to keep the sign for a week and if they don't collect it within a week then we destroy it or is that too much burden on our staff? I I'm not able to answer that. That's definitely a question for public works whether they have the storage space keeping track of it. Then of course if they store it and they damage it then is there a liability issue? So, it's definitely a question that would need to go back to directly to town staff and probably the town administrator and public works director. Yes, Commissioner Bryceman.

Um, well, number three, when it says any entity, I don't know if the lawyer wrote this, but is a person deemed to be an entity? I mean, it could be a person or it could be a business,

right? I actually think we may have written this one together at some point because um and I I think when we wrote it, I advised that I'm not sure this will pass legal scrutiny. I'm not sure that we can do this. Um but we put it in here and we'll run it by the lawyer. Um, so this the concern that had come up from the planning and zoning commission was that people put out these signs and they leave them out and they don't take them away and then the town has to, you know, pick them up and incur all that expense. Um, and so particularly around real estate signs, this was like, okay, if you're abusing this privilege, we we can contact you as a real estate agent and say, you know, you're going to not do this again or anytime you place signs, we're going to pick them up immediately because you're just not allowed to place them for a bit.

No, what I thank you. What I meant was that I think it just say any entity or person or persons with PN s because someone could say well I'm not an entity I'm an individual okay it's just okay so add person with an s well or I would put person you know par yeah right does anybody have any issues with adding any entity and or Yeah, I think that's that covers it andor person s.

Oh, I think it's who. Well, I don't know if you use who or that actually. Oh, instead of that, you put I don't know because an entity would be that, but a person would be who. So, I don't know. A person could be that, I think. Or Yeah. Okay. I think we Okay. Mhm. Yeah, you can keep the that or you can use which which places or Yeah. I think that places is fine. Um, and going back to uh the other issue about holding signs for people, I think we do get into a little problem with

Oh, but this sign doesn't look the way it was when when I had it before. We could get into that issue of uh and then if your sign disappears and it wasn't public works that took it, you prove it. This is a non-compliant exempt sign.

So, it's a a sign that is put without a permit, but it doesn't meet the requirements of the exempt sign. So, maybe it's a look at what our exempt requirements are. Maybe it's a really big sign um that wasn't permitted that would need to be permitted or just isn't allowed. Um so like openhouse signs, there can only be three off- premises. What if there's eight off- premises? Then math. Um five of them, right? No, six of them are are non-compliant. Um, did I I did it wrong still? U So, those signs are non-compliant with the exemption rules.

They're non-compliant and they're exempt from needing a permit. Only three of them were exempt from needing a permit. The other five, it's five, were not allowed at all to be placed. They're non-conforming signs. understand that one. I think we need we need better. Okay. So, let's go with what the exempt signs are. What is some of the exemp Go ahead and let's go over the exempt signs again. So, for example, one sign not exceeding. You want me to go over all of them? Well, I mean, just as an example, I think they have to understand what exempt mean. Exempt means exempt from needing a permit. Right. Right. Um,

and then a non-compliant one uh would mean they would be either too many of them, too big. this not it's not exactly fitting into what a sign would yeah they would be qualified to be.

So there are exemptions but still within the exemptions no sign shall obstruct any sight line for vehicles traveling on roadways. So if you have um a directional sign that is exempt and you can have it without a permit but you have obstructed the sight line for vehicles traveling on the roadways now that's a non-compliant exempt sign. How about if we rephrase it and say exempt signs that are not non-compliant? Would that be easier to understand? An exempt sign that is non-compliant. You said not non-compliant. Sorry. An exempt sign that is non-compliant. Would that be easier to understand than having non-compliant exempt?

I think so. Yes. Oh, so any entity and or persons s with that places non-compliant I mean sorry that places um exempt sign exempt signs that are not compliant that are non-compliant I guess we want to say that are non-compliant right so you want to say exempt signs that are non-compliant I think that might be a a little bit easier to understand.

And if I also when you're ready Sarah just on B if just to have um continuity uh where it says after three such violations by the same entity we need to put persons and or persons just so there's you know yes there's two places. Got it. fails to remove such sign.

So you don't like the word such? Well, such is going back to just these. So, uh, non-compliant signs, for example, just non-compliant. If somebody puts one of those up, it can stay as long as it's not exempt. No non-compliant signs can stay without a permit. But if it's an exempt sign,

I didn't hear any. Okay, we Okay, so did you want us to change the word such? Is that what you were asking to do, Commissioner Brown? What was it? So, okay. So, any entity and or person s that places that places a exe an exempt sign exempts No, I should say, let's do this again. any entity and/or person that places non-exempt signs that are exempt. I'm so sorry. I'm I'm doing the confusing here. Any entity and or persons that places exempt signs that are non-compliant

or or fails to remove such signs shall A and B. Does that not sound okay? Maybe replace such with exempt signs. Is that clarifying? You're talking about in B or you talking about up at the top on three or both? Three. On three. Any entity in or persons that place? Okay. We have to make it place. Place place. Let's say the place. Any entity in our persons that place Yeah.

exempt signs that are non-compliant. or fails to remove such signs. Maybe these signs.

This this just seems to apply only to exempt signs. Yes, that is correct. Exempt signs are non-compliant. That's right. Where is it that we have them? They get a where they get a notification. This is not You mean for permitted signs? For non-permitted non-compliant signs, right? So So they placed they placed a a non-compliant sign. Uh an exempt sign that's non-compliant. No, just a plain old just just non-compliant sign, right? Where what do we do? What do you do?

So, a non-compliant sign would be a sign that they placed without a permit. So, that will go through the regular procedures for unpermitted structures or sign and place signs. So, they'll receive an a call or notice from the town that that their sign was not permitted and they come in, they need to come in and apply for an after the-act permit. If the sign does not meet the requirements of the um sign ordinance, that permit would be denied and they would need to remove their sign. Where does it say though?

That's just the permitting p like when you apply for the permit. So in let's go up to permits required. So residential districts permits required. So here's all the uh it's section G. So you that's for residential districts. Then there's commercial districts permits required. So those are the ones where you have to apply for the permit because the permit is required. Okay. I is your question. Okay. Maybe the question I think that I'm hearing is do we need something that says like maybe number four or whatever any entity and or person that that um have non-compliant signs that need permits.

Do you want to do we need a whole section on that? Maybe that says whether exempt or maybe okay maybe something like that combines all of them I think that goes to L which is non-conforming signs right so non-conforming signs never mind I'm wrong non-compliant signs yeah so a sign that is abandoned or otherwise in violation of this chapter must be removed what page what

that was on page 1900 So, um um but I think I think that so M3, right? You could say that places and you know, not make this just about exempt science. Only problem is B is specifically meant to address exempt signs, right? So maybe you repeat it as four or two. Really?

I was thinking two or put it in. Yeah. Make three, four, and make three. Three would become four. But you're only going to put A, not B.

Oh, how would you word that? So any entity or person that places any non-compliant sign or fails to remove well non-compliant sign period because there's not a removal need. So that just says that you're going to receive a notice of violation. It doesn't go through the whole violation process which I think is laid out in violations and penalties. Right? So we could go back and repeat violations and penalties in this area. I think the intent of Yeah, I think the int the intent of four was to add violations and penalties for exempt signs. I'm concerned about repeating the violation. On further thought, I I don't think it should be three or two or three. I think we should continue to follow the violation regulations. um in 29030 that are referred to.

Okay.

Okay. How about you had four that said any entity or person that places non permitted sign shall remove it upon notification of violation from the town of Chesby. Sometimes a non-permitted sign could receive an after the-act permit because it's compliant. So I think that it might need to say in person places a nonpermitted sign shall follow the procedures for an after the-act permit. If the permit is denied, it shall be removed

on notification of the town or um we need to or reference back to this section. I want to specifically cross check with the rest um of the ordinance to make sure we're not undoing something that's already being done. Um is it empty, please? and and if that permit is denied, we'll remove said sign. It's probably in compliance with section blah blah blah.

Okay. So, is that how did you number this? How did you how did you work that in? um that I think Commissioner Brown suggested that before and I think that makes sense. Okay, reread that if you wouldn't mind, please.

Yes, I missed a word or two in here, so we'll catch it as I read. Any entity or person that persons that places a non-permitted sign shall follow the procedures for an afterthe- fact permit and if that permit is denied remove said sign upon not upon notification of denial and I think there's going to be a part that says in compliance with section something. Does that sound sounds It sounds like that's what we needed. Thank you for bringing that up, Commissioner Brown, because I think that's a an important thing we needed to include here.

Perfect. Okay, I think we've cleaned this up a little bit. And if you all don't have time to read this and you want to do it in your spare time, the enforcement, interpretation, fees, etc., Um, a lot of details here of course more than signage. Can I make a motion?

I guess that uh we remove all all strikethroughs that are located. Well, we can do that, but we were going to go back through this. We're not done yet. We've got still a lot more to do before we're going to do all of that. Can you Can we wait until we finish all of it? Oh, we still may have strike through. I'm sorry. You want to leave the strike? No, I don't. We're still working with the draft though, so I thought we might have more strikethroughs. So, I thought,

well, what do you want to do? So because this has gone back and is now an amendment rather than a repeal and replace when we legally draft the document, it will have the strike through the strike in procedurally for the town council when they approve it to know which sections of the code are struck and which sections all of the new sections will be in all caps. I believe that that these sections Yes. You're going to approve. Yes. That's what you're saying is you agree that they should be saying yes. Yes. Make a motion that we approve the strikethroughs.

Yes, that makes sense. Uh do I have a second for

Okay, let's discuss. Um, is there any reason why we would not want to approve that tonight or would not want to even work on that motion tonight? We see that we're going to be needing I mean, they'll add more strikethroughs or what do you think? I the the strikethroughs will remain in the document you're looking at. It's just that you've already approved them. So, if you feel like you need to add one back in, you can have a motion to add it back in. I think Um, okay. So, the motion again was you want to move to do what?

Accept the strikethroughs. I don't hear any more questions or issues about uh approving the strikethroughs. Okay. What do you think? I'm fine with that. Okay. And all in favor discussion I anybody opposing? Okay. Okay. And second one is uh uh the yellow highlighting indicates repetition. So yes

recommending we uh break those repetitions. So the reason that I highlighted them is because you all developed both things um through conversation. So I just want to make sure you choose which one to remove. Right. Most things I removed, but if you all can decide which of the two items to remove. Um because they were both kind of crafted by the planning and zoning commission. Um my motion is to remove them all. Remove all the things that are in yellow.

Yeah. Everybody gone through the yellows and made sure that they understand what we're removing. I' I've been through it several times, so I'm good with it. Obviously, Commissioner Brown is good with it. And they're mostly in the front. So, yeah, they're in D2. You do just need to keep one of each of them. They're both high like they're pairs. They're highlighted in pairs. Sorry. When you say they're highlighted, well, actually all four of them do the same thing. That's not It's not pairs. It's all four of them do the same thing. So, one of them needs to remain. You mean on pa You mean on page six? Yes.

One of them needs to remain. So, the point is that they're keeping they're keeping signs out of traffic lanes or sight views or obstructing the right of way or sight lines for vehicles traveling on roadways or constituting public safety hazards. They're all they're all doing the same thing. They're just using different language to do it. Um and because each of these was sort of crafted by you all in they were all in different sections. Let's clarify. So they were all in different sections when they came to this organization. They all say the same thing. Um, but I remember you these I remember each of them being written and I want to make sure I don't delete something that is important.

Okay. So, we have E, F, H, and I that theoretically say similar things, but I hear Commissioner Grace. I'm I'm want to parse it a little bit more because sometimes you might want to there might be one word in one of those duplications because it's similar but it it might would be more meaningful than one we keep.

Okay. E signs. You should include shall not, right? Sign shall not be located within any street lines except signs that are official traffic signs and other official federal, state, county or town government signs. Shall not is struck because it creates a double negative because of the heading of the Oh, right. Oh, sign shall be loc. So sign shall not be allowed. It's not allowed. Yeah, finds loc B should probably be struck. The the word B should not be in there and then it makes a little more sense.

Okay, there you go. Take out B. So strike behinds located within any street lines except signs that are official traffic signs and other official federal, state, county, or town of government. Okay, that one I think uh makes a lot of sense. I do have I'm not sure that I really am getting a grasp. Street lines. Okay. It's not that means line sight line. That's street line doesn't Okay. The word the word street is so you want sight instead of lines in this. Well, there was some place instead of

Yeah, sight instead of street. You said sighteline like the the one in I I think sighteline for vehicles is important and that's more descriptive of what you're trying to prohibit than just saying street lines. Well, let's go to F and maybe this is clearer. Signs erected within or obstructing the public right of way. This includes the median of any public roadway. I don't

that's very different. Okay. Then we have H. Any sign that constitutes a public safety and traffic hazard such as by obstructing traffic signals, road warning signs, street name signs, or the view full view of the traffic in all directions. It's getting better.

Yeah, that's a little more complete, isn't it? That's your original text. Yes. And then I signs obstructing any sight line for vehicles traveling on roadways. That seems like unobvious. We if we if we put street, you know, if you incorporate that somewhere else, you don't need to have a separate the full view of traffic in all directions is a sight line,

right? So, are we thinking I I don't I mean, do do we really have to um in E where it talks about um permitted would be official traffic signs and other official federal, state, county, or town government signs. Is that maybe not apparent on its face? And we don't have to. We're not in charge of them. I don't I I e I don't know that we need to include the rights that they have by virtue of being a bigger body

because seems uh unnecessary in my opinion. I I think so to remove E. I think so. I don't I don't any any concerns about taking E out altogether. Do we have any issues with taking E out? All right, let's remove E. F signs erector within or obstructing the public right away. This includes the median of any public. I do like that last line. This includes the median because that's where they have a lot of problems. So I can incorporate

I wouldn't want Yeah, I wouldn't mind incorporating that into uh H perhaps. So if we had any sign that constitutes I'm sorry it's already NH any sign that constitutes a public safety and traffic such as obstructing traffic signals. No, we're talking about the median like when they put you know those they don't always obstruct but they're um they're not allowed. They're distracting. They're um they could obstruct they could obstruct I guess potentially

you could change F to say signs erected within the med within the medium of med median of any public right of way and then keep F and H right then H and F are different from each other. That's true. Oh, keep F and H but remove or obstructing the public right of way. This includes from H. So F or sorry. So F is only talking about the median and not So you would just say signs erected within the median of any public roadway, right? We've already talked about public right away. Yeah.

Okay. A signs erected within the median of any public right of way. Roadway. Well, do you want to say right ofway or roadway? Oh, roadway. I think do we want roadway or right away? Because I know you said right away. What's What's more broader? Say public. Well, there aren't really medians on the side in the like extended right of way. The middle is part of the roadway. So, right. I think either's fine. that include uh holiday decorations. No, decorations are allowed. A sign doesn't have to have words. No, but a sign does have to have words.

A sign does have to have words in the definition.

And we have holiday decorations exempt. So that's already exempt. Okay. So keep public road. Okay. Signs erected within the medium of any public roadway. And then H, any sign that constitutes a public safety and traffic hazard such as by obstructing traffic signals, road warning signs, street name signs, or the full view of the traffic in all directions. That's as pretty clear as you can get. Yes. I just want to ask Commissioner Brown. So if I I'm thinking that what you were referencing is that the Christmas display is in the medium and potentially that could be distracting and I personally can't wait every year until that. So I don't know that we're

but there exempt but even exempt signs have to be in compliance and I'm not sure I don't know and Mr. I could be so the so we could have the holiday decorations except the ones that say ho ho ho because we don't talk like that about women of the night. So Brown is correct. Those ones would be considered sign and all the other ones would not be. That would be considered a sign

because there's words. Yes. Although we might be able to get around that. Let me read the definition again because I was reading it earlier today. I will say that they have those digital holiday sign boards that people can on any kind of sign on if that they want. But anyway,

well maybe not. Sorry. It says which displays includes any numeral letter, word, model, banner, emblem, trademark or other representation used as or in nature of an announcement, advertisement, direction or designation of any person, firm, group, organization, place, commodity, product, service, business, profession, enterprise or industry um which is located upon any land on any building or in any window. So since those letters are technically an announcement of the person of Santa Claus, but he is not located on any land or in any building, I think that that they could not be considered a sign.

So was Larry right or wrong? So I think I think the Christmas decorations would be allowed. I think you brought up an important point actually. So the view Okay. I think um so anyway, going back to your motion, we're the motion was we're still in a motion here, I think, if I recall correctly. And the motion was to please repeat the motion so I get that correct. Delete the the four. Did you want to amend that to say uh I don't know how to end it. You may want that debate. So something else is going to have to

amend if you even continue with the motion because now that we've talked about it, but okay. So we have to So actually we've already changed it during his motion. So we'd have to probably uh turn down his motion and then make it again or we'd have to amend the motion. So yes, vote on it or we vote on it. Move on. Yeah, we could vote on He says keep all four of them. you or I thought you said get rid of all four of them or get rid of get rid of all four of them. Sorry. Get rid of all four of them. But we at least have one of them. Well, that's what I'm saying. That's why I said either change it now. I vote against Mr. Brown. Not there yet.

Okay. So, so let's go ahead. So, we got we went ahead and talked about it. Let's go ahead and vote. All those in favor of eliminating EFH and I, please raise your hand. Great gold. Who second that motion for the strike? Did you? Nobody seconded. I'll I'll second. Okay, we seconded that.

Okay. All in favor of um Mr. Brown's motion that we eliminate E, F, H, and I, please raise your hand. All against, please raise your hand. Okay, that motion went down. Would anybody like to make a different motion? I would make a motion that we delete small E under D2. Start there. Eliminate. Okay. Do you want to make any other include?

I thought maybe we get a motion by by letter by letter. It might be easier, but maybe not. Um I mean I can do it that way. I make a motion that we delete E, that we amend F to say signs erected within the median of any public roadway. I think I had that right. That we keep H as is and we delete I. Any questions about that? Any changes? All in favor of Commissioner Gman's motion, please raise your hand. Any opposed? That

passes. Thank you. That done. Next motion. Knew it was coming. I know it's coming. Go back to his motion of eliminate the strikethroughs. No. Oh. Oh, you approved that. That was all part of the one, wasn't it? Yeah. Strike throughs and Yeah, we did strike throughs. I thought that was approved already. Yeah, we strike we struck struck those through. Let's go.

Okay, so the next motion would be uh D prohibited signs, general regulations. Uh we delete uh all everything after signs. So it would read prohibitions of this section shall apply to all signs period bleeding regardless of the district in which they are where do we have a place under D1 just the the beginning general regulations page page six page six D1 gotcha gotcha

say it again please uh it's a the prohibitions of this section shall apply to all signs. Period. Delete regardless of the district in which they are all located.

Do I have a sec? That was a motion. Do we have a second? Um, do we need to have that in there?

No, you don't. Any other questions about that motion? Any issues? Okay. All in favor of making that change. Uh, I've just got a question here before we go to any more motions here. On page seven, when we go to P, any intermittent or flashing illumination, are we clear on that not being an EMC? It's just any. So, it doesn't doesn't matter if it's a EMC or not. I mean it's under not allowed and that's why I'm just making sure so that isn't being conf I mean we don't confuse that with any EMC an intermittent I mean it seems like a an EMC can be considered an intermittent sign it's not it's it's the so the way the EMC is regulated it regulates that. So it's not the intent is this this like flashing and like quick um changes are not happening um or you don't have well okay yeah

it seems like we are be we're very confused in P

you don't want to Okay. I mean, I know what we mean by flashing. Uh flashing is typically like every every second something is moving. Every second you're seeing a different But isn't isn't that prohibited? EMC's. It's got to be a minimum of 10 seconds or something. Yes. But intermittent is the one I was really concerned about.

Oh, the flashing part. Well, if you have a a light that is illuminating a sign and that light is flashing, that seems an unlikely thing to do, but that's what this is talking about. Not it's not just EMC's. It's any situation where you have flashing illumination. You a neon sign that's flashing open. That's not allowed. Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. Grace, is is there some overlap between K and P? Because K talks about signs which flash flash or blink

and P talks about intermittent or flashing illumination. Um there you go. Maybe we don't need P because we've got a K which pretty much does the same thing. I think that's a good point. Thank you, Commissioner Riceman. Does everybody see that?

Yeah. that K is pretty much saying the same thing as P and it's a little more I think a little more complete. Signs which flash or blink or which have varying intensity of illumination on less than a 3se secondond cycle are prohibited. So I think if we eliminated P I think we'd be a little clear there. So is any can I make a motion to eliminate P or do we need to make a motion? Can we just eliminate it? Does anybody have an a concern about eliminating P? Do I hear any issues? Okay, let's second it.

Thank you. Okay, we're gonna motion that out. Okay, that's gone. P is gone because we already have it in K. Good. Um Okay. Um M, no waving, fluttering, floating signs or moving parts. But then on page 16 we have banners, feather flags, human signs, inflatable signs and penants are permitted periods of time. So which is

when is temporary. Okay. Well, M says it's not allowed, but in page 16, we're allowing it for uh Mhm. some number of days. So, a waving sign could be a um feather sign, right? doesn't a feather sign wave. Yeah,

I would call it cluttering, but yes, it's still covered. Jeez, Louise,

but uh Okay, this is the good point. So, um and I think you know this refers to signs that are sort of like well a balloon is a floating sign. Um, only sign that I think would be covered by this is those, you know, those like uh inflatable balloon guys that are waving. Right. Exactly. Um, right.

I mean, the question is do do what do we want to do with those? Do we want to eliminate them or it seems like if they're temporary it would be fine. So um if we removed it we removed it here. You're saying deleting M. That's what I'm thinking at this point because is do we want to eliminate them for temporary signage? Because a lot of businesses like to use those for temporary signage, call attention. Sure.

They call attention. That's exactly what they use. So if you eliminate that, I mean, if you uh allow that, then we have eliminated a lot of important signage. I'm temporary signage at least. I think temporary Makes sense that it's temporary, but I don't I think M probably should be stricken. I'll make a motion to delete M. No waving, fluttering, floating signs or signs with moving parts are permitted. I will second that.

Any questions, issues? Do you think uh we'd have any issues with that? I don't think so. Or do you think that would become I mean we've already got the temporary signage all already. Yeah, exactly. I'm not seeing we would Yeah, I'm not sure that would be something on a permanent sign and I don't and because it's not made of a durable I think it's fine. Yeah. Yeah. That usually durable things don't Yeah, I think flutter.

Okay. So, um any other issues? Um Commissioner Han. No, she's shaking her head. Okay. All in favor of deleting M, please raise your hand or say I. I. Okay, let's go ahead and remove M. Okay, great catch on that. All right, Commissioner Brown's on a roll. L commercial signs advertising a business in any I'm not sure why solely residential areas there. We have unsolie and solely but nonsleie

but I think if if you look we've got dozens if not more uh businesses in the residential communities. Mhm. Um, I would think if uh they had to get a permit or or something like that would be acceptable. But just saying they aren't allowed. Um, seems harsh especially in our community because there are so many in our community and so few commercial areas, right? I I

And isn't it if if somebody gets a roof put on or new windows or whatever, a commercial sign goes up in the front of the like they ask if because can they put the sign in the front of the yard while they're doing the work maybe a week after so that you know people aren't knocking on your door saying who did your work. What if somebody who actually sells a product wants to put their signage out in the front of their house and keep it there? Oh. Um, you know, a roofer, you know, advertises his roofing business out there on a permanent basis basis. They normally have their work truck out there that already has it on. Well, I know, but they leave. Dumb. The sign could read

a clock maker back over here. That situation. So, we've got potential abuses, though. I mean, we definitely have to accommodate the clock maker or the mom and pop back in the RV, too. But then I'm worried about the people who might want to just advertise their business in in the low intensity residential areas or whatnot um and keep it up permanently. And that is where this came from. You guys had this discussion. Yeah. And added it in. So I think um you probably need a motion to decide. Hi. Proceed. If I might.

Yes. Commissioner Gryman's got a a solution. Well, no no no. Rarely. If a commercial sign I think that's why the word so solely is in there because if you've got a if you've got commercial use where there's mixed use residential and commercial it's not solely where do we have that mixed and res uh commercial and residential mixed my neighborhood. Oh yes, definitely we have that in Commissioner RK's her block is

so that would be allowed because it's not solely and I think maybe that's why that word was there to differentiate between like the HOA neighborhoods where there's it's just residential but the word does not imply particular zones. So I think that's the confusion there. That's a good point. Which which neighborhoods are uh mixed use? So the town commercial, the commercial, let's see which which ones are they? They are the RV2, right? Then there are the uh RV1. No, RV1. We don't have businesses in RV1. TC.

Yes, we have the TC and we have it up um your your area is called NC NC. Neighborhood commercial. Neighborhood commercial. Commercial. Yeah, the neighborhood commercial. Even in the east, that's where the barber shop and the, you know, right, right up on the hill. Up on the hill. Okay. So, there's that there. There's down by Yep. along here. Well, and and then Roland's.

Yes. But where you live But where you live is not that's RV1. That is right. That's not where businesses are in your area. Like you don't want your next door neighbor to start advertising a roofing company.

Who knows working from home and he's got the clock maker who lives over here. Maker just for reference. I think we have a clock maker. Yeah, you do have a clock. He's a real He is a real clock maker. He was several years ago. Used him. Oh, I just thought that was There are a lot of these small little businesses who who have homes up in the areas and uh we're saying here that they cannot have a sign out front,

but it means but I think okay, she just brought that to a point. commercial signs advertising business in any just residential area that is not a mixeduse area over here where the clock maker lives is a solely residential area too that's RV2 and that is areas then that might be one area where we have to list the zones that they're allowed in that might be the one thing It's been years since I used him, but he I was back up in the neighborhood.

If he had a if he had a sign, he would remember sign advertising a business in any um zone, any residential area where businesses are not allowed or businesses are not locally. Maybe make a rule. So they only have two square feet or something. Strictly residential. I like that. Yeah, I think strictly residential is helpful. Let's take the word. Thank you. We Commissioner Redk pulls that one out. Residential area. How about that?

So you could say commercial signs larger than two square feet advertising a business in any strictly residential zone. And then that addresses Commissioner Brown's concern that the watchmaker has a little sign, right? And it also addresses everyone else's maybe say one limited to one. So commercial more than one commercial sign. No, I I got to word smith it a bit a minute. Well, I think we need to leave it just saying commercial signs advertising a business in any strictly residential area. Mhm.

Then if we want to add another one that allows certain mixed use zones to put up little signs, then we maybe want to add something just for those zones. Oh, that's already allowed, I think, because this is only prohibiting it in zones that I changed area to zone. Sorry. Um Okay. So, so so in Richfield Station, that's strictly residential. Residential. So if um guy's working from home, I don't know, he can't have a sign up. That's strictly for no, especially in an HOA. You can't do that. In some HO,

let me say according to the bylaws, it's not allowed. According to the HOA bylaws, it's not allowed. According to your zoning, he's according to your zoning. He's not allowed to work from home. Yes, that's exactly right. in a in a residential area. Home home occupations are not I'm just saying it seems unfair to me. So let's say that there's

you just can't have anybody coming to your office and like the clock maker can have somebody coming to his place of business. But in in ritual station you can't have that. You can have a home office where you're a lawyer and you're doing you know work. Yeah. Everybody can have in a home office even in in ritual station but you cannot have any place any business where somebody comes to your place customer traffic you mean customer traffic so they can you can have a business in your home you just can't have that's right bodies coming in you just can't do business in you have the business but you can't do

so we want to get catch 22 in fail and they'll move from that screen and I don't know that this block but I'm saying there may be somebody I do what's that what he said what did he say now mean about you can have a business but you can't conduct your business is that what you mean no he I'm not going to speak for Larry no I mean there there are a lot of businesses in the residential areas here. I don't know that any of them want a sign. I don't think they should be restricted where they couldn't have a sign.

And I guess with the HOAs, I mean, what I think HOA that's a whole different Absolutely. But in my area, that only takes up probably half of the name, like half of the town. Well, that's right. and across the street. That's an HOA, but there are areas of town where there are no HOAs, right? And and those people move there um for whatever reason. They didn't move into Richfield Station. They chose to move over here. Um

and and I guess the point about, you know, people not wanting like lots of traffic or whatever, but you someone could have a party in their house and there'd be lots of traffic. So that's doesn't the reasoning for not wanting people coming in and out with that too is really I'm kind of butressing your point that I I can understand that I mean if it's I mean just just because there's a sign so I mean people can have have people coming to and from and all of that that's okay but they can't have a sign so well nature way we can't I think we allow them in RV to signs.

No, no, I'm trying to pick little areas out. I'm saying in general where there is not an HOA restriction. I don't want commercial signs in my neighborhood. I'm that too. I get that too. Here is something I just thought about with Larry's comment. That's fine. But I'm I'm just saying the RV too because I don't want a lot of extra traffic or foot traffic. Your street is so narrow. Well, it is narrow, but that's that's why I don't want it. Commercial signs or commercial business. We don't have enough parking. Kelly, what were you saying here?

When Richfield Station was built and they installed the the signs for um for all the alarm systems. We all had alarm system signs for years that they put up that I mean, it wasn't our commercial business, but it was commercial business saying, "Hey, we have ADT. If you do anything, our alarms are going off. Right. Right. So, realistically, I mean, it wasn't our sign for our business, but there were still business signs in all our yards. Also, public service where to call to have the alarm turned off. Yeah, that's a public. I don't I don't think you want to tell those people that they can't have an ADT sign because it's part of their defense against

But the HOA can tell them. We don't have to. The other question is, if we're looking at commercial signs, does that include real estate signs? And does that include the guy who comes to repair your roof and he's just putting his sign up there while he's working? You you discussed that. Yes. So, I mean, would that eliminate? Yes. Because I don't think we want to eliminate that. Okay. Working there and they want to advertise who they are. I don't think that's a problem.

You guys, you you discussed last time. So I think just trying to determine what the direction is. I I want to clarify that home occupations are not permitted in any residential area for anything in any strictly residential area. So customary home occupation is an unclassified use and is not permitted in the RLD, RMD, RHD, RV1, RV2, RPC and RC. Okay. RV2 has it's always been allowed in RV2. It's not allowed in RV2. Okay. Well, we need to go back to some of that conversation we had.

So, maybe we need to flag that for we might need to flag that for a future meeting if that wasn't the intent. We need to discuss it because I know a lot of people over there are I mean that's where they move to have a home business as an RV2. Yes. That's not permitted. I can't I can't issue I've had requests. I mean, as he says, I think that's where the clock maker lives, but there are a lot of little, you know, businesses over there. We definitely need to agendaize that. Talk about that. You help us understand where RB2 encompasses.

RB2 is basically north of 260 and west of 261. No, it's behind the antiques antique stores behind that. So, it'd be north because this is south, north of 260 and it would be west of of 261 in that area where in Cox Road. Would this also affect the farmers because we have some farms in Chesby Beach that sell their eggs and sell all their other stuff, their home, their business, their chickens. Does this affect them?

Well, are they in the zone that would allow that? I don't know. But they're different. I would have to look up if that's allowed. But we have a couple of them on 260. Yeah, but that's the one that's right up at the top of the hill. That's gone. No signs, no nothing. I don't know where there are any others.

Um Yeah, we should. That's right. Eight free eggs. Um, well, I think we need to establish what is a strictly residential zone. I mean, now that now that we've brought this up, I think I think um our last town manager, uh Holly Wall, we did talk about the fact that RV2 somehow got slipped into a a no commercial area, and that is definitely a mixeduse area.

We should go back. In fact, we could talk to uh Madame Clerk about our past minutes. I'm sure somewhere along the way we had that and I don't know where it got switched up but anyway I like the idea of switching to strictly residential zone. So um it would then but but then we've got the question of again the real estate sign the you know um if a roofer's doing your roof and he puts a sign out is that a problem? Don't we have a whole section on real signs? Right. But then if we have commercial signs, wouldn't that Oh, so you're saying that they're inconsistent? It's inconsistent. Exactly.

Do we have to then include uh the ones that we are allowing? So commercial signs, advertising, business and any including or excluding excluding real estate uh exempt signs. How about that? Excluding exempt signs. Can we put that in there? So, what we would say is commercial signs advertising a business in any strictly residential zone excluding exempt signs. Would that be clear?

Yes. And it would allow the signs that Commissioner Brown is concerned about because any on premises sign that has a total area of less than four square feet is exempt. Yes. Right. Exactly. Right. So that would allow him to put his clock shop sign up. He becomes a partner with a clock maker. That's right. He's going to start making clocks himself. I guess allow clock because of exemptions. Yes. because it's go ahead and

so in exemptions to um C uh one of the types of signs that is exempt is any on premises sign that has a total area of less than four square ft exemptions is E what page are you on um so I'm taking notes as I go so my pages become inconsistent with yours what give me some reference. So I it's letter E. Um you're somewhere near page nine.

Exemptions. E is exemptions. Then you're going to go to two and look at letter C. So E two. So two E2 C page eight. any on premises sign that has a total area of less than four square feet. That'll work. Yes. Okay. And then you've got your holiday and seasonal decorations and ho ho ho sons. Um now if we go back to page seven and we look at letter N, animated signs. Sure.

Yes. May I please please go. We'll we'll talk amongst ourselves while you're gone. So talk about you. We'll talk about you while you're gone. Quick, let's talk about Commissioner Redk. Okay. So, letter N, animated signs. Um, don't we already have um Rod? I think at least one of them right down here on the corner is animated. Occasionally put up a whatever sign. I am not sure I have a problem with it. is so animated animation almost sounds like a sign that we've covered before. So movie picture. So it is kind of like a cartoon.

It is kind of a cartoon but I mean we're we've got a gaming a resort and that's how you attract. Is it distracting though? Do people think animated signs or an animated sign on the corner is distracting? I mean don't you think in some ways that our society people drive while texting? So the whole concept of distraction has changed. But what's one more distraction? I mean I don't I it's not permitted under your ENC regulations either. So even if we strike it from here, it's it's not going to be permitted.

Well, how can we permit it allow it? or how can we It seems like it's silly um that I know he's got some lovely little animated pictures on his digital sign. I don't have a problem with I don't know, maybe I'm the only one who doesn't have a problem with it, but can we allow it without also allowing like the quick changes that are happening elsewhere? I'm I'm not sure. I I would have to I would have to spend some time thinking about this saying with the the 10 seconds or less

you can't have any changes and animation would obviously have to change the really can he change that speed? Can they change that? Oh yes. Oh yes. That's very very easily change changeable. But when you have animation it's constantly moving. But but can't you bring it into compliance with what's allowed? Theoretically not. It changes every 10 seconds or something which is allowed. Yeah.

Which but that doesn't distract people because I mean you just catch it out of the corner of your eye just before it change. You're trying to watch it change. I I I don't see a problem with it. changes, but we're talking about 10 seconds to every five, four seconds. I think the the 3 second cycle is where it's um accepted or research shows that it's unsafe. So, if it's quicker than 3 seconds, so that's why we have the prohibition on the 3 seconds. And I think I think you settled on 10 seconds for electronic messaging center, but I don't remember. Let me take a look. Yes. 10 seconds.

Commissioner Redkkey, we're looking at N animated signs and I was thinking that I saw an animated sign on the corner um you know on the corner of AMC and it didn't bother me to see an animated sign. And an animated sign means it's kind of um it's constantly moving. So an animated sign means it has to be like a cartoon. It's constantly moving moving. And we have restricted or I should say prohibited anything from moving less than 10 seconds. Right. Thanks. So that means you can't have anything animated in the in this

I mean what do you think? I mean so so in other words you can't have like a a Okay, let's just see. I'm trying to think of what animated sign I think I saw there. I'm trying to think of what it was. Was it about bingo? Um, but it was you're going from showing a bingo tape. I don't know what it was. It just seemed like there was it was animated. An anim sign is any sign that uses movement or change of lighting to depict action or create a special effect, movement or scene. Wait a minute. You mean the ones that look like they're little like it's a screen like a like a Well, the the rule is proposed. Uh, what signs is that going to affect that are here in Chesby Beach? Now,

we've got Rod and Rio, we've got the fire station, we've got the American Legion. Those are So, it's it's it's sort of how the used those fireworks on. Yes, they won't be able to do that. I'm thinking about that as an example. Okay, there you go. Thank you. What will happen is these non-conforming signs will come for permits and part of the condition of their permit will be that they can't have this flashing, blinking, quick changing anymore, right? That's so they'll have to do what?

They will have to come in compliance with the regulations of the EMC section which says that the change it has to stay for 10 seconds and then it can change. It can't constantly or quickly move safety. I mean that sounds Have we had any accident? Do we know of any accidents from the fire station's animated sign that it's really causing?

So I haven't researched any accident data. I know that the the planning and zoning commission's concern was that it once there's more of them then it becomes more of like right now maybe it's fine but if we're going to allow EMC's then if every business along here had had things moving seconds and flashing then it can become distracting people would ignore them. I mean, if every business had one, I would. Yeah. Yeah. It'd be a big crowd of I think you'd still process it. I think you'd still process it in your brain. All of that activity.

It wouldn't look like sign. Would that be the ultimate sign clutter, though? Having a lot of different animated signs going down the street. The animated signs. Yeah. It turns it more from a resort town into a more Las Vegas Yeah. feel because we've got to again approach it in we've got tourists coming in that are here for the bay here for uh a feel of uh you know scenic beauty and then we have a whole bunch of flashing animated signs. I think that's what we were thinking. Looks honky tonk.

Yeah, I guess that's what we're trying to avoid. Okay, so if we kept the animated signs so then everybody would have to turn off all the all the little pictures that they've got going and revolving. Fuco has revolving signs. Um I ask that we put under definitions revolving sign just to make sure that we include I don't think we have revolving sign under our definitions but I think when you say revolving you mean that the entire thing moves around right the entire sign goes 360 on us. A sign which resol revolves in a circular motion rather than remaining stationary on its supporting structure.

Okay. So, we have that also as not allowed. Um, Marshall zone L, I think we've cleaned that up a little bit. Now, now K, um, signs which flash or blink or which have varying intensity of illumination on less than a 3 second cycle are prohibited. So, that is not the 10-second thing we're talking about, right? That's different from the 10-second. And this is a safety recommendation. Um, it's a little it gets a little muddied here as far as what the the three and the 10 uh flashing and blinking. I'm getting a little bit confused here. Signs which flash or blink.

Okay. All right. Uh, and then Jay, let's go to J. Lighting devices other than official street lights installed by a public utility or government that shine directly into a public street or highway or into a residential district. That would probably be like a beacon would or would it be like a beacon or a strobe or a I don't know. I was thinking I was thinking of Batman big car dealership kind of big light. Okay. Okay. Okay. That's good

or KO studio. Um, let's just quickly make sure that everything else on the not allowed isn't redundant or whether and G any sign obstructing any window, door, fire escape, stairway, or any other opening intended to provide light air ingress to or egress from any building or structure. That makes sense. B. Any sign projecting more than 14 in out from the wall?

About T. About what? E. Hacking, painting, posting, or otherwise a fixing of signs or posters of a miscellaneous character. Well, those are snipe signs. Yeah. If you want to describe what a snipe sign is, those are snipe signs, right? Am I not wrong? Well, it's not just on the poles. Is on barns and sheds and telephone poles. Yeah. Any um anything that's not

So, snipe sign is a sign, tack, nailed, posted, pasted, glued, or otherwise attached to trees, poles, stakes, fences, public benches, street lights, or other objects. Okay. or place on any public property or in the public right of way or on any private property without permission of the property owner. Okay. We don't have that on T. You just think she was reading the I was reading the def I went to read the definition to see if it could be removed because snipe signs is I think it could be removed and covered under snipe signs based on the definition. Oh, okay. Okay. And where is uh where is snip sign located in under not allowed is snipe sign?

I think it's Q, but we might have added one in here. So I might have the wrong numbers. Okay. Yes, it's right above it. Okay, fine. As so long as we have described snipe sign fully in our in our definitions, we're good. So we can then take out T entirely because that is a snipe sign. Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner Brown. Good catch on that one. And then you we have socializing vegans. Do we have that in our um voca in our definitions? So I added um there's a definition of beacons and then search lights says see beacons because they're really the same thing. So we could just change this to say beacons and not search lights and but so what did you you want to change it to just beacons?

We we could we can leave it because search lights is a term people know so I think it's fine to leave it there. And then V balloons. Have we described what a balloon is? Yes, I went back and added the def those definitions you noticed were missing. What would be the definition of a balloon? A lighter than air gas filled balloon tethered in a fixed location which contains an advertisement message on its surface or attached to the balloon in any manner.

Okay, I guess includes air andor helium. So that covers everything. Do we want balloons? So, before we say no to balloons, do we are we going to be sorry that we said no to balloons? I know a lot of people use balloons, what do you think? They have to have words on them to be prohibited. So, just like a cluster of balloons is fine. Okay. Okay. So, it's we I've got a So, do you want to include balloon? Okay. Do you want to say on V balloons with uh you know words on them? That's the So, that's the definition of the balloon sign. So, we could say balloon sign. Okay. Balloon. Let's put balloon signs. I have a question.

Yes. So, if someone I could be way off base, but if someone has a lot of balloons attached to their mailbox for their child's birthday and they say happy birthday, we're going to go pop them off. Lo is five. Um, are those prohibited? So maybe technically, but this is back to the kind of thing of like you got them up for Khloe's fifth birthday. You're not going to have them up there for more than a day or two. Especially with this one coming by popping them. Yeah, especially if I come by. I don't see code enforcement even trying to enforce that, but if they did, it would be gone before there was any issue.

Okay, Chloe will be happy to know that. So what what kind of balloons does this describe here? So it is a lighter than air gas filled balloon tethered in a fixed location which contains an advertisement message. So Chloe is fine anyway on its surface or attached to the balloon in any manner. There's an advertisement message shop here. Roland's not it's Khloe's birthday unless it's Khloe's birthday and donate money then it's a

gofundme is did we decide not to do them under temporary signage? I don't remember talking about balloons as temporary signage but I mean businesses love balloons occasionally. Yeah, you decided to prohibit them before. I know we did. I know. I'm just, you know, having second thoughts here. Do we want to reconsider balloons? I mean, most balloons don't last as long as a sign, right? You put them up and they're gone within a couple days. I would say no more than, you know, four days, five days tops. Yeah. That's why I'm saying do

look at her face. What are you thinking? So there was discussion around this of hot air balloons which are like those aren't as temporary. So I just want to I think that's okay. I just want to make sure the whole concept is Oh yes, I see what you're saying. Part of the discussion. I'm talking about the ones that actually deflate after. I see what you're saying. Right. That's why we left it in there.

Think so. Yeah. Um, what does anybody think about that? I know we we took out hot air balloons. We took out uh I don't know. I'm I'm I frankly am not as concerned about balloons. Why? I've changed my mind. What does everybody think about balloons? families about I don't I don't really either anymore. I I don't know why I thought I did before. What do you think?

What do we think down here about balloons? I for me I think I don't see that many balloons right now. Right. So, we're looking in the future. We're ambivalent now, but what's it going to be like in the future potentially? And what would it look like if there was quite a few in the future? festive and you're not here to pop them. True. You're in California. Well, I somebody will be here to do that. I keep thinking Yeah. But then you have destruction of property. Well, and they would be in violation if they were above 20 feet, right? Because we can't allow any sign above 20 feet, right? That be including a balloon. Yes.

Theoretically, yes. So the the big balloon that I'm talking about, the big hot air balloon kind of a thing that goes up higher, that wouldn't be allowed anyway, right? Depends like you know those smaller little hot air balloons that they sometimes put on top of strip malls, right? But that's above the roof. That would be uh not allowed and prohibited and that would be above 20 feet, right? So those would disallow those two concept. I say we just leave it as it is. I mean

there's there's the door is open for it to be, you know, put closer to the ground or you don't have car dealerships, right? But that's where you would see it. That type of thing like closer to the ground. I'll I'll comply with these regulations. We want to do we want to put stipulation in here about balloons balloon signs above 20 feet in height or above? Well, they would still need to be below the 20 ft, but you could still have the sign below the 20 ft. So, I think that's the question is, do you care?

He doesn't care. Nobody cares. Should we just leave it as is and make them prohibited? Leave it as is. All right. Okay. Fine. So, nobody has a We'll just make it a balloon sign instead of just balloons. How about that? Okay. Um, okay. Now, under exemptions, I don't know that we need to go through exemptions. I think it all looks um we've been through this before. Does anybody want to go through it again? If not, I what I would I would like to Okay, then let's go through exemptions. Exemptions on page eight. No. Oh, she's just being funny with me. I was attempting. She's being funny,

but but he's he's got but E1E says signs must be brought indoors when high wind events are forecast. All signs, big signs, signs on the side of a building have to be brought in. It's only sign something that's is going to get Oh, right. Yes. Because not all exempt signs are portable. Correct. Yeah.

I shouldn't be laughing at this. That's too funny. Okay. Thank you, Commissioner Brown. So, what are we gonna So, yeah, he isn't really He has really been doing his homework here. So, um, how do you want to change it? Portable. Oh,

word to that effect. I just changed it to portable and made it a lowercase s. Okay.

Okay. So, portable signs must be brought indoors when high wind events are forecast. Yes, sir. Oh, do you have anything more? I was, you know, I was just going to ask, and I don't know if we talked about this or not, under not allowed, did we want to put in, I know we talked about it, the cars with advertisements on them, and I don't mean cars that are or trucks that have advertisements permanently a fixed, but the ones that are used to do temporary signage, if you know what I mean. Did we talk about that and we said we didn't care or

talking about it? Are in here somewhere? Let me find them. So, in other words, some people like we had a truck parked in front of um the Rod and Wheel that had advertised the barberh shop for a long time, right? Okay. Um and you can move those, you know, to different areas. Uh they're they're temporary signs, of course, but um could they be abused? Could we have a lot of car temporary signage all over the place advertising and should we not allow them?

Uh or should we permit them or how do we want to address I mean, a lot of towns I know um don't allow them and then they park where they're not supposed to be parked. They park in, you know, Roland's parking lot. Yeah, they do all kinds of So, under Oh, never mind. And I I didn't see it. That's why I'm Yeah, I thought we had it because I added that definition back in, but now I can't find it. Maybe we just talked about it and didn't actually add. Do

we really have the authority to I mean it's not land, it's property and it's a moving vehicle, right? Um we would have to be specific. Um cars used as so there's a definition of vehicular sign. So a sign a fixed to a vehicle in such a manner that the sign is used primarily as a stationary advertisement for the business on which the vehicle sits or is otherwise not incidental to the vehicle's primary purpose. Oh, there you go. Thank you.

So then it's just that I think I think you guys wanted to prohibit them and I I apologize. I did not actually add them. I added the definition but not them. We didn't Okay, we didn't put the definition in the current there. The definition is in there. Um, but that's what I was trying I've It's in the current draft where under vehicle. Oh, I see on it's on page It is on page six. You're right. Yes. So, I put the definition and failed to add the Oh, you forgot to add it. Exempt. So, okay. Does anybody have a problem with either that definition or with putting it under prohibited? I think do you see on page eight? I mean, I'm sorry, page six. It's on page six of the 28.

Where's the definition? on page six at the very top. It is easy to miss. I do see Oh, thank you. Okay. You said it many times. Thank you. Last one and it goes on to that next page. Yeah. I mean, let me ask you a question. Use primarily as a stationary advertisement. Let's say you use that vehicle for a business. Business is slow, so you're not going anywhere. who determines as a stationary advertisement for enforcement. I

mean it gets tricky for enforcement with enforcing anything on vehicles. I think the the part where it says or is otherwise not incidental to the vehicle's primary purpose. I think that pretty much indicates is there only for advertising that situation that, you know, they're promoting at the time. It's not their business. I mean, I I could I could also see it where it would be signage that is not permanently affixed to the to the vehicle. Mean with mag the kind with magnets or something? Yeah, I would. Well, permanently means like if you've um

wrapped it. Wrapped it. Yeah.

And then I mean what if that's a pretty expensive thing when you've wrapped a car. You're not going to just sit it someplace and not use it. Well, it's not just that, but if that's your business car, you drive it home and then you drive it to work and it acts as a sign. It was your mode of transportation. It's dual purpose, right? And that would not be this that this definition excludes that because or otherwise not incidental to the vehicle's primary purpose

which is to identify who that you know worker is or that business is when he's going to work or he's at work. So, if it's just, you know, a pier for Congress and it's sitting on a, you know, uh, on a car temporarily and that car keeps moving around, that obviously would be part of this definition. Well, the definition is one thing, but but have we figured out if we're going to allow it or not?

No, we were going to put that in the prohibited section. We haven't done so yet, but I was going to add that as a TUVW and put vehic vehicular sign unless anybody says no. You want to prohibit these? Yeah, I do. Um, I think that's there was a guy in my neighborhood and it's uh prohibited in our HOA docs allegedly because I haven't read everything but um and it was not a magnetic sign. Right. And he was told that he cannot park in his driveway.

Correct. So he has to park on the street kind of streets are not that wide, right? Um, and I think that car wraps are a I mean, I see a lot of them. In some HOAs, you have to cover your car, right? You have to cover it with a cover that you can't see that wrap. And I and I I mean, I understand that, but at the same time, um, it's a way for people to advertise in a a manner that is probably pretty affordable because I mean, because they also get to use the car as the car. So, it's advertising it's their car. They might get write offs. I don't know. My my concern is when they

if if they're using it as a car, then it's incidental to the vehicle's primary purpose. Yeah. Yeah. That's the sentence that But I mean, you could but they they might think I could drive my wife's car to work. I'm not going to. I'm driving. I mean, so it could be a dual purpose and they could be one day it might be 5150%, the other day it might be different. I mean, have you being in um uh Annapolis route two right before it gets route 50 diner lady double yeah we've talked about this before okay there's it just sits there forever and with a big you know advertising

huge and she must have some arrangement with the diner for it to be there actually I think she moved it across the street she She has she has a deal with the corner of that area. It's there as an advertisement, not as a vehicle. Okay. Now, what if she drove it half the week? Well, then then it's right then it's incidental to the vehicle's primary purpose. But if you just leave it sitting there, then it's obviously that's I think what this is talking. Okay. I'm okay. I'm fine. There are a lot of abuses, you know, with

lady just calling something lady law is an abuse. Going back to uh page eight then exemptions. Um E, thank you on that E. That is a good change there. Um I'm not sure we need 2A official traffic signs. Do we really need to even have that in here? I don't know. That seems silly. And it seems other place anyway, don't we? It seems like we got rid of it. We were rid A and B seem, you know, necessary. That needs to be there. We're not in control of that. I mean, do we need A and B?

Well, I mean, your own signs, you don't want to make it so your own signs aren't allowed, right? That's true. Okay. I mean, you can remove a you could remove a, right? But that's kind of because you can't do anything about the state signs, but it's it's it's good to have it in there because otherwise you're technically Well, do we want to just say government regulatory signs, including wavefaring and traffic signs? Yeah, let's just traffic signs. Miss Franklin, what we had deleted before, is that now inconsistent with keeping this in? No, this is fine.

Okay. in in the highlighted area. I forget how that came out, but would did we leave that in the except for official traffic signs and official federal I was just asking. Yeah. Yeah. Right. It was unnecessary. So H says something. They took it out on Yep. Put it back in.

Deleted E and I and we removed the strike through for F. Well, so yeah, we have signs erected within the median of any public roadway. That one might need to say except government signs, but I think H any sign that constitutes a public safety and traffic hazard by obstructing, it's not going to be relevant. So, it's only the median where it causes an issue. on 2E. Do we want to put a quantity of flags like no more than three or no more than I mean

you you could see someone decorating their lawn that looks like Historia with all those flags. You could Yeah. And they don't have to be um they could be I mean they I mean they could put you know political signs up that you would be offended by. You could put those all over your I mean do we want to have some kind of restriction on how many they can have or you guys discussed this and kind of came down we did

answer when we came down with reducing it reducing all the text. So we had written a bunch of text and then we reduced it down to just this word flags. So, bring the text back. Let me see if I can find the text while you It seems to me that we need to restrict how many flags per lot. As a side note, it was at this point that Miss Franklin quit. No, just kidding.

Um, I'm just trying to find the old draft. Um, directional science. What does that mean necessarily? One way turn this way one way. I mean is that signs that people can put up or that the government puts up? The government puts up both. Or do we want to say that? Do we want to say I mean wouldn't that be under regulatory signs on B? Sorry. Yeah, but that's actually wayfairing signs. What am I talking about? Isn't that wayfairing signs?

Traffic signs. But also like you talked when you talked about this when you talked about if a church is having a sale a yard sale or that's a directional sign too. Okay. Event this way. I I found what previously we had with regard to flags. Do you want me to read it?

Yes, please. large flags in addition to national, state or town flags, one large flag per lot or permitted commercial operation provided that flags and flag ples shall not be located with any in any right of way. Flag poles shall have a maximum height of 30 feet. Remember this. That's good. Why did we take that out? Did we want to take it out? I think at the last meeting it was a discussion of really simplifying things and just lifting items that I'm worried that flags could get out of control.

I think we need to have some controls on the flags and I'm not sure we want them three stories high. Well, there's already a limit, right? They're not supposed to be if I the roof. Isn't they considered a sign? I guess not because there's no words on it, right? So, they do have words on them though. some some so there are flags with words on them and those are the ones that would be considered signs. Other flags like well I guess technically even the Chesapeake Beach flag it has words on it so it's a sign. Um

so we might want to ex exempt town the town flag specifically because the Maryland flag and the United States flag don't have words on them so they're not signs. Um, I don't know if Calvert County has words on it. So, we may want to exempt those, too. Um, how about accept exempt government flag? We could accept the government flags. We can exempt government flags, right? Right. So, they're allowed without a a permit right now, but if you put restrictions, then you need to create the exemption for government flags. Uh, I just want to put a restrictions on on on size. I mean, how many, excuse me, quantity.

I don't want a, you know, 10 flags on one lot, right? So, so you don't want Neptunes down here. How many flags do they have? I just drew five. They have about five flags. All the all the services. Oh, that's right. Military. Well, those are government flags. So, I I say the government flags private entity. of Neptune. Well, but the flags are

I'm saying the government flags are exempt, but um if you if they're non-governmental flags, I think they should have a you know no more than three per lot or I don't know something. But I I mean is is the concern that you could have as a private person or a private business governmental flags and then you get to have they can be high but the limit 30 well the flag so the flag on the flag pole determines whether it's a sign or not right an American flag on a flag pole is not a sign and so it can be

it's going to be subject to other zoning regulations, not the sign ordinance. So, if you want to say have a flag, Boy Scouts of America, now it's a sign. Now, it's a sign and it's a waving sign. It's fluttering. It's not durable. Um, but it's allowed without a permit. Right now, you're allowing any flags. So I mean, so in other words, they can turn flags into signs with words and make them permanent and you could have a whole bunch of them. So I'm just seeing a lot of opportunity for a lot of abuse with flags is my point. So you want to

Sorry, I'm having first amendment thoughts. Um Oh, but isn't that with all signs? I mean, if you want to exempt government flags, I think that's going to be the only thing you allow, unless you want to allow like what because you can't

we can't say what's said on the sign determines whether it's allowed or not. So you can exempt government sign fl sorry sorry flags and then say one non-governmental flag I would be okay with that. So if you said exempt all government governmental flags uh and one non-governmental flag is allowed without a permit. I'm okay with that.

Mhm. per property or per per you want per business or per property. I think per property because have numerous businesses on the property. Yeah. I mean how many on rides are on that property? Yeah. quite a well I mean some um so how do you have it written?

I have e governmental flags and there is a new F one non-governmental flag per property. It keeps it in the list style that you guys wanted. So you have allow without a permit governmental flags. Okay. We include governments that we uh governments that we appreciate. You're allowing any down. We should we only say only let's say government flags. Let's say official government. Official. Okay. Official government. I like that. Official government flags. And then and then you have F is what?

One. Let's say one. I was say I say one non-governmental. Yeah, that's not a government. That's a person. Okay. Yes. I think you can say one non-governmental non-government flag per property. And you want to put a height on that? A height limit. Do we want it 30 feet, three feet? It's still subject to the 20 foot. Okay. When non Okay. Government FL. Okay. Good. Because it's a sign. Okay. Right. If if it's a non-government, what if there are no words on it then? Then then it's not a sign. It's not a sign. Well, it could be 30 feet.

Yes, it could be a blue square with clouds on it at 30 feet. Somebody's trademark is my point. So, that could still be a sign, but it' be 30. Do we really want them 30 feet? Three stories high. The trademark is part of the sign. So, it's not just words. Um Oh, right. Trademark stands in as a sign. So, um Goodness. We've saved the flag over here, illuminated or otherwise, which displays. Which one? Which one is he talking? That's true. That's He's talking about the one. God bless you, Larry. A trademark is makes it a sign.

Okay, let's continue. Let's finish up exemptions. If everybody's okay with the flag thing that I had a big issue with on F directional signs, do we want to change that at all or make it in up to B with the wavefaring? And do we want to include it into B? Where are you? I'm still on page eight under exemptions to for whatever we're at right now. He only refus refers to government regulatory signs or and government and regulatory signs, not yard sale this way. That's the difference between the two. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, leave directional by itself.

Well, it's up to you, but I just wanted to point out the difference between Do we want to explain it or define it in this? I mean, other than real estate, what other directional sign other than pointing to the yard sale signs maybe. Yeah. I mean, she was Yeah. Churches use them sometimes when they're having a bizaar or something. Okay. Well, when we were talking about walkability, going to be signs, different. Yeah. Once upon a time. Don't they use the signs when they do the and hunger bike ride through town and everything else?

Probably, but I don't have experience with that. Okay. But I mean, I think unless we're going to are we going to define the directional sign? Are we going to make another definition for that? So, they are defined as signs designed to provide direction to pedestrian and vehicular traffic into and out of or within a site. Do we have to include a size? I guess not under the definition. Okay. Okay, that's perfect. Okay. Under real estate, uh, Commissioner Redk, are you happy with how the H has turned out? Yeah. But they've been I think so, too. I think we're all Is everybody else happy with H?

No. Okay, sir. Um, number one, one sign not bigger than six square feet. That's fine. But on page 11 under G one E, it repeats uh what's there only in many more words. I would say delete G1E. Yes, I missed that one.

Good catch. Thank you, Commissioner Brown. Um, anything else on this one? If you go to Okay, maybe it's just me and I know we've talked about it before. Thank you very much. On page 10, F3. Is it just me that sees this as a little confusing? And I've seen it on on so many other towns and it confuses me every time I read it. where the sign consists of individual letters or symbols attached to or painted on a surface, building, wall, or window, the area shall be considered to be that of the smallest rectangle or other shape which encompasses all of the letters and symbols. Does that make any sense? I know I know that Miss Franklin understands it. I don't understand it. It seems to me like it's sort of like framing it. Um,

yes. And well, I think you need it, right? Because if so, for example, if you that the one person who reached out to us and they wanted to paint a mural and maybe put their business name on the mural, right? Yeah.

So the mural can cover the whole wall. It's beautiful and attractive, but the sign still has size limitation. So if the whole mural is their letters and their sign or for their business now the sign is too big. The mural is allowed but the the letters need to stay in a certain block of it. So it it is I get it not super clear. We can sign does not include the entire it only includes the part where the letters are.

Yes. Well, it doesn't make sense if indeed you're using the sign to encompass colors that are also the trademark of the building or of the business. And I mean, or maybe using waves and like uh you know, the guy who paints whales out in California, he used whales and pictures and you know, whatnot and didn't use any letters. It seems like the entire thing should be, not just where the letters are. Wland, the guy's name is Wland. He painted

Yeah. You're prohibit You're kind of prohibiting murals if you do that because if you make the whole painted area a sign, it has words on it. Then you can't paint a whole wall because of the requirements of the signs being sorry, it's in the commercial district. I just want to make sure I'm reading the proper thing. So the aggregate area of all signs attached to or printed on a building shall not exceed 10% of the area of the building face or 100 square feet, whichever is less. So now you can't paint a mural. In this case, the letters within the mural, if there are letters within a mural that are advertising the business, they have to be they can't be more than 100 square feet.

Let's say 10 by 10 or something or Yeah. But so what if you're a pet store and you have a huge sign that has a bunch of different animals on it that you could you could have a huge sign that's not included as part of the signage. That's just a mural. It's a mural. I I could see where you think it's a little muddied. But yeah,

but on the other hand, you could just paint a wall with red, white, and blue and have a sign and it's not necessarily a mural and it's not necessarily related to your business, but it's still visually imposing. Well, or it's still identifying it's still it's still a it's a identification of your business. I mean, it's still it grabs your attention, I think. Um, so is a mural a sign? I guess depending on the quality.

I mean, why couldn't it be considered a sign if if you know if it's if it's depicting what that business is? So, could you have the entire wall of a of a building, you know, just, you know, instead of letters, you're using symbols, like a hairdresser, let's say, and you've got a big blow dryer

garage. No, that doesn't really identify what they do there, though. I mean, it's a mural. I mean, I'm okay with murals, but I'm just concerned about using the entire side of the wall as um you know, identifying it with, let's just say, a hairdresser. You're going to have the blow dryer and the comb and have a huge comb and a huge blow dryer and a you know, all the things that would go inside of a hairdressing or hairdresser's business.

That to me sound seems like a sign. So where a sign consists of individual letters or symbols, right? So I think your comb and your hair dryer like if your mural is someone sitting under the the dryer reading a newspaper, right? And then your letters are that's a mural. If the wall has your name and then it has a blow dryer here and a comb here, now those are symbols that they're individual symbols, not part of a mural. I mean, it would seem silly to not then just make a mural and, you know,

well, it's certainly cheaper to use a stencil and paint it on than to pay someone to put in a professional mural for you. Uh I think I think the question is do you want like I I think it's attractive right as a planner I think it's good for a sense of place and public art to allow murals to exist and even businesses to create murals. There are actually businesses who have really large like their letters are a mural but it's still very very attractive but that wouldn't be allowed under this but this still allows you to have the mural and your your letters are going to be smaller within it. I I think it's a positive thing from a planning perspective. Okay.

Previous administration uh when I was talking to previous administrator, we were talking about asphalt art, which you know is on the roads, it's slows traffic, it does all kinds of things. But we also had a conversation about murals on public buildings. Yeah, I love that. I I mean I agree with you. It's it it it home, you know, kind of. I don't see it as a sign. If you if you had a beautiful picture, yes. And if that's done beautifully, but if you I mean, when does it become actually

beautiful, right? But it's not no longer beautiful. You're going to be the beautiful police because I am not. beautiful to me. So, yeah.

Yeah, you're asking a question about mural content and approval. Um, but it's not a sign necessarily unless it is showing the business with these symbols. So, a mural say one of the like well the mural at Rod andreal, right? That's a mural. That's not a business. And I think it's not regulate. A mural wouldn't be regulated under a sign ordinance. It would be dealt with differently and it has to be dealt with carefully.

No, I'm not really talking about a mural. I mean, I get I I enjoy the murals. I'm concerned about abuse. What? Yeah. What are you concerned? I'm

concerned about Okay. If you go to uh let's just say you go to San Francisco or you go to um everybody's got a big you know they they paint up their all their stores and they use like let's just say graffiti art to to write up the name of their and it the entire thing now I know it's signs but it I mean um letters but it also can be just pictures. Let's just say it's of a marijuana store. They got a guy smoking you know a joint. Okay fine. So, is that the kind of mural we want on the side of a of a building? I guess, but that is identifying what the business is. It's, you know, um or a marijuana leaf. Okay, that's fine. I mean,

those aren't allowed in town. So, I'm sorry. You're not allowed to have that kind of business in town. So, well, okay, I'm just I'm using an extreme case, but I'm just thinking of ones that I've seen in the past, and I'm thinking, okay, what could be abuse? What what kind of a commercial mural could be abused? I I don't know. There probably could be like a tobacco leaf on a background of a flag. Calbert County flag. That's a Card County. I guess that's true.

I just my point any longer because it's not something I can really identify as a problem. Okay. So it's and we are moving on and so what we have been doing is been adding now to our definitions list and she keeps adding uh she took away some and if you go to the front you'll see that she has included more uh I think it's too late now to continue on uh looking at these but for next month if we do complete this we've really gone through and I think tidied this up pretty nicely uh so that we could be ready in September for our public hearing that we're not meeting in August.

No, we are going to I well don't Yeah, I think we're going to meet and I don't think we've decided to not. So, I think we're going to go ahead and meet in August. That's that's fine. Don't we need to see the final product before I think that's a very good No, I just know that like who isn't No, the town is the final product. Done yet? We're not done with it. I'm saying we can get to the public hearing by September back to the reason I mentioned that Larry which you regret now. I really regret it anyway. It's because like town council doesn't meet and so in my mind.

Right. Right. And and last year we didn't do it because I had to be out of town for personal reasons, but it discuss it and approve it. You know, Larry, I am with you that. So, if we can really get those definitions down, uh, then we should be looking good. And then of course next month I think we can start with the coastal coastal zanzi. Yeah. I just want to ask about the agenda for next month because I had a note that I be uh drafting the backyard chickens ordinance. Correct. We do have that next but I think we can also I mean we I can also draft coastal resiliency but then we also discussed tonight that there might be a problem with the home occupations. So I just want to

Oh, that's true. We do have I don't want to I don't want to bump coastal resiliency because we all want to get to it. Um but maybe I can provide like an overview and update more presentation on that and we can look at some of the other stuff and then in September we can get more into start getting more into coastal resiliency and maybe we'll have resolved some of the other stuff. Perfect. Did you have did you complete all the things that you wanted to uh discuss? What what else quickly did you want to before you forget? 14. Let's go and finish

I general sign regulations says signs shall not exceed the height limit permitted in any district in which they are located. Do we have any height limits by district? So there's there are height limits by district. just is the same height limit in every in every district. Um, so but you could, right, if you updated the zoning ordinance, you could provide different heights and at one point you did have different heights.

So I think it's without having to come back and update the zoning ordinance. It's the cleanest or sorry the sign part of the zoning ordinance. If you change the heights, I think it's the cleanest way to address it. It does mean if you change the height in one zone then those signs would also be allowed to get higher. Right?

Okay. Um, I know what I was thinking. Um, now that you mention it, um, I put my biblical ball and I take it off.

Um, go go on page 15, JC. Temporary signs. No such sign shall be posted earlier than two weeks before the occurrence of the event to which it relates. Sign shall be permitted for more than 60 days per year. That should say shall not be permitted there. Not be right.

Not be Um, let me see if there was anything else I saw that I there was a comma somewhere I wanted to add. Um, okay. If there's no more, then I think I think so far we're looking pretty good. Um, uh, let's go ahead and, uh, close up signage and let's go to comments by commissioners quickly. Uh, Commissioner Han, do you have anything? Not at this time.

Commissioner Gryman, do you have anything? Just excited to say good night. Oh jeez. Commissioner, what? No comment at this time. Excellent. and Commissioner Brown. Oh, we are going to get to uh the Yes, we are. What? Well, last year we had the uh uh group that presented uh uh coastal resiliency. Yes. Resiliency. Coastal resiliency.

Yes. and and in there they made some recommendations on changing the way we restrict the height of those people that are in flood zone that said we would get to it. I'm just Is that what we So we just talked about it. What I have to provide for you all for August is the changes to the signs, the backyard chicken ordinance, a presentation,view of the coastal resiliency recommendations, um, and a memo regarding home occupation.

Are we are we going to have any um experts come in and talk to us on the coastal resiliency? Yeah, I would I would say as we go through the process, yes, we're going to need to um I would think we would need u insurance people or that's a good point. Very good point. Insurance is really tricky right now. Yeah, very tricky.

You're you know, if you're on you're on the coast, you're you have to be above the flood zone to be to get insurance. and flood zone is now wavering. So I would like to hear from somebody in insurance about what would be the you know how how should we address this? Well and some company some insurance companies they might insure a house but they're not insuring it for full market value. Yeah. So there there are a lot of changes. That's a very good point. Anybody else we should think of of of asking to come? I mean I know there the group um can the critical I was going to say can we ask the critical area commission has said they

and we what the critical area commission staff has said they would be you know available resource but also we have our own comm uh committee down here that's in place resiliency committee yeah we have them we could uh ask them to come back uh we might want to think of other resources that we want to maybe I'll propose yes What about USDA, NRCS? USDA, NRCS, Natural Resources Conservation Service.

Anyone you guys want to present in relation to it? What I'll I'll do is I'll create sort of a table of recommendations and then I can also create a list of people may might want to pre have present to us and then if we approve that in August I can start reaching out to folks and trying to schedule one one group per meeting um as we go through the process. Perfect. We might have to wait till September and people might be on vacation but yes we got to get the ball rolling. It may take more than because it may take more than one month to schedule them out. But yeah, that's great ideas. Great recommendations.

Yes, he's rolling tonight. Okay. Um I have no comments. So, do I have a motion to adjourn? Second. I assume everybody's in favor. Thank you all for attending. It's been lovely. So I can No, I'm being facicious. Yeah, I'm being facitious. We can we can get things accomplished while we're having fun. I think we got a lot accomplished. Thank you for everybody doing their homework and getting some comments through that really it's not great.