Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Good evening. Um, this is the planning comm planning and zoning commission of Chesby Beach, Maryland. It's June 25th to 2025 and we welcome you to our meeting tonight. Uh, I'm going to call the meeting to order and ask for a roll call. Let's start on this slide, please. Uh, Lori Brown, and I'm Cindy Greenold, Mary Sue Graceman, Christopher Smith, Kelly Han. So, let the record show that uh Commissioner Rutk is not here at this time and then we're going to go to the pledge of allegiance. I'm sorry. Rachel's and Rachel's missing. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm I'm sorry. We also have a Commissioner uh Weaver is also not with us. Let us know. Thank you. Yeah, appreciate that. Okay, everybody stand please. I pledge ready begin. I pledge algiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for it stands nation and justice for all. Okay. Number three is approval of the June 25 2025 planning commission agenda. Has everybody looked over the comm Okay. Okay, we'll just assume everybody's looked at the agenda. Um, I would like to actually uh amend the agenda if I might. So, I would like to move that we add um election of officers to the agenda. Uh, do I have a second? Okay, we have a second. Any discussion on this item? No, no discussion. Okay. All in favor of adding that to the agenda? I Thank you. Um, next

we're going to go to number four, approval uh of the minutes of May 28th, 2025. Move to approve. I second. Any questions, issues, deletions? Okay. All in favor? I. Number five. Let's go ahead and go to our public comment. Go ahead and if you wouldn't mind um coming on up to the dis or to the podium rather and uh giving us your name and address and uh share with us what you have. Sure. Um I'm Joyce Hamer. I'm from 8444 Clear Spring Drive in Richfield Station. Um I am the HOA COA president in my section. Um Richfield 5. Um we are in the section that has the issue with the developer not completing our roads. I've been there since 2014. Uh the roads were supposed to be finished when he was done building. He hasn't done anything since 2014. Literally hasn't done anything. I mean we have lots of things in the community that the roads just are the most visible. um to everyone because it's in front of the trail. So, not only does it affect 900 or 800 residents in Richfield, anybody that accesses the trail, they have to go through a ridiculous roads that the um manhole covers are inches above the road. We've had kids, you know, 5-year-olds wreck their bicycles. Um it it's just it it's just ridiculous. And it's been, like I said, it's I've been there 12 years and it's been longer than that that the the conditions have been that way. And I know our main HOA has been trying to deal with the developer and trying to get them to fix, you know, these things along with, you know, issues with trees and sink holes and all these other

things and he's been non non-compliant in in all these ways. So, it's my understanding that now he's trying to build in the front of the neighborhood as well as I'm not sure if he's going to try to finish our area, but regardless of any future building, he's got a lot of things that he's neglected for over a decade. So, I just want to make sure before you guys prove any permits or anything for him to continue building that you're aware that he's got all these loose ends that and I know he has a bond that has not been tapped into for all these things. So, I just want to make sure that it's full disclosure for everyone here that he doesn't move forward until he addresses all the things he's neglected. I'm glad you came in here to uh talk about it. I've actually gotten some uh emails about it, questions about it. Um maybe our planner, uh, Miss Franklin, can uh enlighten us a little bit about that whole area, tell us what's going on. Um, so the the issues with the the roads and the bond and all that, that's not really my department, but that is being dealt with by the appropriate department. Um, as far as building permits and subdivision, we don't we don't have any we don't have any approved subdivisions to issue permits on. Mhm. Um and so they would have to come forward with the subdivision application to the planning and zoning commission. Okay. Before any permits could be issued. Okay. So hopefully he's aware that he it's my understanding that you know the council the the town and councilman have been in contact with him and they are working to resolve it. But I know in February this came up at the at that meeting and they were supposed to come out. someone was supposed to come out and inspect the area and hasn't. So, I'm just trying to keep the ball rolling that this is all

addressed in full transparency that everybody understands all the things that have to be done. And I assume you've been talking to Dr. Smeilia about this and I have not this is this is new to me to to speak on it. It's been the the primary HOA that has been dealing with all of this. It's just the fact that now our development is getting improved with roads that are were in much better condition because the HOA is taking care of the roads as they should. But because this is the developer's responsibility, our roads are being neglected. So, it's caused an uproar in my section because we can't get snow removal because the plows can't come back there because of the manholes. So, we have to wait for back to come back there. We're the last ones. We're on a hill. It's just they they call us the neglected people of the neighborhood because it's Yeah, we're they joke we're the stepchildren of the neighborhood because it's just and it's all I mean I understand it's the developer but people are getting mad at the HOA because they don't understand that it's not the HOA's fault and the HO's been working on it but it's just it's just very frustrating and it affects a lot of people not just Oh, it does affect a lot of people and a lot of people have been complaining about it and you would think, isn't there a legal system here that we could, you know, tap into? Construction. I know there's a bond. I know how that works. And if you don't perform, that's what a performance bond is. So, we Why hasn't Ches Beach pulled the bond? If this was 2012 and we're in 26, what do we have to do to enforce the bond and pull it? We pull it in the government. So, why aren't we pulling in Chesig Beach? I I can't answer those questions. He doesn't know the answer. Thanks so much. But that is just pretty much every question as well. Who do we ask those questions too? Whose department is it and who do we ask? Well, I would go to Dr. Silia and town council for those answers. I can only

answer the planning and zoning questions. That really is beyond our Dr. Similia is who my petition is addressed to. I was told from the town council meeting that he was made informed. So, um I have no have had no personal contact with him, but it's that she Yeah, she Oh, I'm sorry. Like I said, I'm just a town administrator. She's a town administrator. Town administrator. Okay. Okay. Doctor, so yeah, she's um Yeah, she's um the one that you would probably want to go and have a discussion with. Pamela, the the the central HOA that you've got is probably dealing with her, I would bet. I believe her and Jay and Jay. Yeah, I think it's public works. Yeah. Mhm. Okay. Yeah. But I'm glad you did come in and just remind everybody where you're at and where you're But uh we so far have not seen any. Um that's wonderful news. I'm glad to hear that because I know he that's his intention. So, well, I guess we don't know what his intention is, right? What the developers intentions are. I don't know. I don't know. We don't know yet. Yeah. But I think your point is that you just want to get your stuff taken care of before, right? I don't care if he builds. You don't care about the development so much as you care about getting your stuff um addressed. Exactly. He causes more frustration, but it's good to be aware and know because not everybody here lives in. We do have some Richfield Station people that do know what's going on. In fact, maybe you have something more to add to that. So what happened was is when the when the condos collapsed in Florida, every HOA had to have an assessment done. Richfield Station had an assessment done and the roads had to be part of the assessment was the roads and the townhouse areas had to be done. Matter of fact, I might be wrong, but they even wanted Richfield Station to pave the roads that developer owes owns, which we

are not allowed to legally do, but they have it in the assessment. I believe that we should be doing it, but we can't do it. But so now, like before you used to have a little drop and you had a little drop, but now that they're doing the rest of it, you have a significant drop when you go from one section to the other. We keep joking that somebody's popping a tire. I mean, it's Oh, wow. Wow. Yeah. I'm just curious how do you know how much money is in the bond and then with accumulated interest visv what it's going to I don't know anything about the bond other than he has one and it hasn't been tapped into and also to your point it doesn't matter what his intent is. It's the law. I mean it's his obligation. It's been more than a decade. I know it's obligation. You wonder why and that has not been our purview. We don't know. But sure, I understand. We've had a change. Thank you. I appreciate it. We've had a challenge change of administrators and planners and people in in in the administration. So things may have gotten a little confused as what was going on or what is going on. I don't know. But um certainly if they come through with a permit, this will red flag to you guys. Yes, we obviously be aware what's going on. So thank you for the for coming to us. So we appreciate appreciate your time. Like I said, I understand that there's another step to this, but I appreciate Yeah. Thank you. your time. Okay. Any other questions? Driving. I just came from Prince Frederick. I hope that's not coming here. No, no, I meant these manhole covers. Be careful of the manhole covers. Um, you might want to consider surveying your neighborhood to see if they can start documenting accidents. Yeah. Accidents, what it's cost them, out-of- pocket expenses due

to the damage of the car, um, different things like that, injuries to children, accidents, things like that. And then take that to the town. Yep. That is that is actually part of my petition. and be sure to make that very clear when I go to the meeting. That's in July. Is that the next one is July for town council? Yes. Welcome to places. Well, congratulations. Yes. Congratulations. I'm sure. Yeah, Bill will probably probably go. Yes, he probably would. Thank you. Appreciate your time. Thank you. Sorry to hear of all those issues over there. It's too bad. Oh dear. Never good to hear that. Okay, I'm going to go ahead and do new business, which is the election of officers. Now, at the last meeting, um I had the the general sense that nobody here was really interested in changing where they're sitting and how they're doing things right now. The reason that I became chair, well, not the reason why I became chair, but we were on a June to May schedule until we had one of our commissioners go to the town council. She was our chair. When she went to the town council, then we needed to have a special special election. So, then we went ahead and had our election. I think it was in December maybe or wasn't it December of last month uh last year when I took the chair position from her? I don't remember. But anyway, and when we looked it up, we looked up and it said just an annual election is all we needed. It didn't give us a time period or a time frame. But what I did realize after the last election and the fact that um Commissioner Baralt was, you know, she ran, she won, she had to leave

us, it seemed logical that we needed to go on a similar rotation, at least in my opinion, a similar rotation to the town council. So if they're a January or their election is from January, you know, whatever or they they go into office in January, then it would seem logical that you get this commission onto a January schedule also. So that then if somebody comes from the commission, which happens, you know, somewhat frequently, we had Commissioner Blackwelder go up, etc. So if you have to then replace a chair or you know a position on here that we we can then easily change positions here at the same time so that we can get a new chair in at the time that we need to change. Does this make any sense as any anybody or no tried to run parallel? Yes, you're kind of saying I'm kind of trying to make it so that we have a parallel election schedule so that we can fill positions more easily. Um, now I've been doing this for six months and I don't m I definitely do not mind if somebody would like to take this position. I would be more than happy to say, hey, you know, it's if it's your, you know, if you want to do this, it's fine. Um, but I didn't get in that that reception last time. So, I'm thinking what we could do then is get on the same schedule and I could make a motion tonight where we go back onto a January to um December schedule for our elections if you all are in agreement that that would be okay. which means that I'm here till the end until January or until I blow my brains out. I don't know what's right, but it's a little much. Well, it may be a little bit of a hyperbole, but anyway. So, I will move if if it's okay with you, um I'm going to make a motion that um the planning and zoning commission amend its election of officers term to commence on January 1 and terminate on

December 31st beginning in year 2025. Do I have a second? I'll second. Any questions, concerns, discussion, etc. Okay. All in favor? I. Okay, let's go to the old business, which is signage. And uh where I'd like to start, if now I know Jan was having a hard time at looking at these page numbers, but if you can see the little page number down at the bottom. Um I'd like to start Oh, there she is. I just texted you. I was hoping. No, I know. Okay. Sorry. Oh, yeah. Well, I'm still on the 7 o'clock schedule, so there's that. Okay. Um, welcome, Commissioner Redk. Welcome. Bonjour. So, we have um now gone on to our old business, which is signage. And I'm going to go to page, if you can look down the very bottom, there's a page faded 15, and it's K commercial districts. Now, um, we are on temporary signage. If you can see, we're we're in a temporary signage uh chapter, but um we kind of moved into commercial districts now. Um you want me to go to Sorry. I was going to have um Oh, I'm in the wrong place. I was going to have uh Miss Franklin go over a little bit about this and and we've it's gotten a little bit confusing here actually, but um we you want to you want to go ahead and discuss what we were talking about or so the draft that you all have has a section for commercial signs separate

from residential signs, but what we we discussed earlier was that you really don't want a house covered in signs either. So instead of designating commercial versus residential signs, it's all signs, right? So temporary signs are allowed to account for a certain percentage of coverage and permanent signs are allowed to account for a certain percentage of coverage. So what you see here is um the total area of all temporary visible signs on a building, its windows or any other area of a lot or combination of lots that make up a single property shall not exceed 5% of the total of each street facing side of the building. You said 15, you said five. So for temporary signs, we picked 5%. Okay. Permanent signs, which I'm just gonna It's the same language except for it says permanent instead of temporary and it's 15% instead of 5%. You don't we we've rearranged it from the draft that you have um to address that concern. So, so if you look down under where it says commercial districts on where it says letter K, commercial districts, notice that there's um um the total area of all visible signs on a building, its windows or any other area of a lot or combination of lots that make up a single property shall not exceed 15% of the total of each street facing side of the building. is saying 5%. She is saying 5%. It's temporary versus per we're talking this you're looking Yeah. This this

from this is under temporary. This is under temporary. And it does say 15 under temporary. So yes, because we when we what I sent you has it split up with commercial districts being different than residential districts. We moved it to putting them all the same and decided to split the percentages. So you can't have 30% coverage when you add them together. You can get to 20% coverage when you add them together. So the concern was if you have 15% of the face of the building, 15% is covered with signage. If you then add more temporary signage to that, you're then increasing it from 15 to 20%. Or what you know, if you're adding 5% of the temporary signage to the permanent, which is 15, you're up to 20% of the building for a temporary period for for the temporary period while you've allowed that temporary signage to go up. Mhm. So, um I guess so the question is then did you did we want to take so right now it's saying under our temporary sign it's saying 15%. Did we want to take that all out and change it around? How do we want to do that then? So because you guys know on this live document so you can look at Can you guys actually you can you read it? It's gonna make a whole lot more sense. Yeah. Um, so we got rid of the commercial piece and just started general regulations, temporary signs, the total area that you're allowed, and made that be 5%. Under permanent, it's the same thing except for it's 15%. And so you no longer have you used to

have when you it's not here anymore. Right here this there it is section under allowed with a permit for commercial districts. We reduced it down to just whether you're in a residential or a commercial district. It's still that 15%. for permanent and 5% for temporary. Now the other question we had is because we're not doing this by districts or zones, you know, we have like where the Baya areas that's commercial. Across the street is RV2, which is really a I kind call it a kind of a semicommercial because you're allowed to have businesses in that area. Do you know what I'm referring to? Across the street from Baya is a district called RV2 and that is a residential slash small mom and pop type businesses are allowed in that district. So you can have like a you know a little hairdresser with a one or two you know shampoo area or you know a shoe store a shoe repair guy or you know a lawyer may set up a shop and just have one guy come in and see him every hour or so. So you can have a very small mom and pop business in that area. So the question is are they are they allowed the same kind of signage? Are they allowed signage at all? So that's another question. So this allows the same signage for everyone. some. So, you know, Commissioner Brown could decide that he wants to put a bunch of signs on his house and as long as it's 15, no more than 15%, he can install those and he has a permit, right? He can install those permanent signs or 5% of temporary signs on his house. Now, the question is, do we want

residential areas to have commercial signs on them? It's not regulating the the idea was not to regulate the content of the sign. That was one of the pieces of direction was not to say what's on it, just its size. So the signs could say happy birthday or 15% of the face of the face for a permanent sign. The wall for the Yeah. Right. Exactly. or 5% for a temporary sign. Yes. Are remember the movie if this you know if it's Tuesday this must be Belgium. This is how I feel. Um so are you saying because the 15% for permanent would apply residential or commercial and that's just temporary or is that also permanent? That would be permanent. The 15% is permanent. So, an additional 5%. Right. So, I'm trying to think about residential homes would have could have a sign on their home. Well, and that's what I'm sitting here thinking about. We we definitely don't want to have um 15% of somebody's residential. Well, I mean, this would not pertain to HOA, right? This would only pertain to all of us who are, you know, still matter. No, we do matter and we don't want to junk up our area. So, that is a question. Do we want to have them, you know, have only commercial signs o in commercial areas only? I think it's it's percentage. If if you wanted to say consistent with what we're doing, it doesn't matter if they're commercial signs or be kind signs. They it's the area

they're taking up. So you could say that in residential zones all signs shall not exceed 5%. And in commercial zones it's 15%. [Music] So let me let me ask how do you determine 5%. And and I'll explain where I'm going. You see these yard signs now that are really neat. Like somebody's graduating or a whole group of kids are graduating. So you might see a banner like in Richfield Station. It's really neat. They went and had a banner made for all the kids that were graduating, right? And they hung that up and then you know some of them do the yard signs where you know congratulations and it's real spelled out and their name and everything else and and all that other stuff. If that exceeds the 5%, how do we how do you calculate it's 5%? Who's going to enforce that compliance? And then if they did, what is the the effect? Right? So when we're using a percentage, it is harder to calculate. And so from an enforcement perspective, it's it's not that the code enforcement officer is going to measure everyone's house and calculate that 5%. It's that you're going to be able to visually notice when it seems to be exceeding the five or 15% and then you're going to do the calculation. Temporary signs are a little different. and your congratulations for graduating sign is up for a weekend, right? Usually, so by the time by the time you get your code enforcement letter, it'll be gone. Your sign is gone. Um, and I'm

not saying that makes it okay to have cluttered signs everywhere. Um, but I think that people don't have to be afraid of their congratulating their kid. And now they have a fine. It's not going to go immediately to fines, right? That a good thing. Did that answer all of your question? So, what does everybody think about that idea of So, they're going to get a code enforcement letter, but the signs will be gone from the house, so then they won't have to pay for the fine if if they get a code enforcement letter, right? Because if your sign is up for the weekend or even for a week, it it's does code enforcement see the sign, think it is more than 5% just easily visually. And if they see it's a temporary sign, they may just knock on the door and say, "Hey, that sign is kind of big. When are you taking it down?" Right? because that is a lot more expedient than measuring areas and doing calculations and writing a letter. Yes. So, so there's what we write here, right? And then there's practically how ordinances are enforced. So, who's our who's our code enforcement officer? Billy Williamer. Garner. Varner. Varner. Does he work in um with Jay? Okay. All right. And he's out every day checking things out sign wa not signwise but codewise.

Ah okay. I'm just Yeah. Um, actually I can't imagine what 5% of a like if this is if this is the front of my lot from this to this 5% would potentially be over to the corner of that for me just rough draft would be to there. So that would mean to me I could only have it from that wall to the corner of that. So that's 5%. So can I stack that? I only can come this way 5%. But can I stack the signs like T? So like it graduates up because you're only doing 5%. Is it like that whole strip is 5%? Like so there's there's other ways to do this. This ties it to, you know, the smaller your lot is, the smaller your sign is, the bigger area you have, the bigger your sign can be. We can create even like a table with if you're if you want to tie it to a lot then because if you have a deep lot you can be allowing a lot of frontage you know what I mean it's it sometimes they tie it to this the length of the street frontage right so you can do that and create sort of graduated amounts of sign area based on your street frontage um there's not a like temporary signs are to me the most complicated u and the most abused and this is where and so if I'm looking at St. Michael's right here. Um they've delineated uh the temporary signage into uses. So for example, um special sales signs. They have uh one through seven different uh criteria about special sales signs. So in other words, around Christmas time you have a special sale. You want to be able to have specifics

about what you can have for a temporary sign there. They have it public events. Another temporary sign situation. Commercial banners. Another one. vertical banners which must mean the flag feather feather flag sign I don't know and then they have commercial public event sign so they have them broken down and we could do it that way as well gets a little more complicated um but I think your point is well taken it's really hard to determine the sizing when you do percentages and I always try to go from the aspect of kiss keep it simple stupid being stupid me If I'm looking at this and I'm trying to calculate what's 5% and I'm asking and I'm the one on here writing this and St. Michaels will have a specific specific square feet footage of sign. So the special sale signs will not exceed 10 square feet. So they actually have it more specific. You can go up, oh is it 10 square feet? Nope. Bap is out, you know. So you can do it that way and it gets a little more wordy because they have like two pages of this stuff. So it depends on how which way this commission wants to go on that. Either that or if it's a temporary sign. We put a thing up that says, you know, the temporary sign should only be up seven days. Yeah. Um well, temporary signs uh usually are for um longer than like a week, you know. Usually like St. Michaelels has 30 30 consecutive days. We had 60. But you know, well, I think wrong thing. Um there's the difference between temporary residential areas and temporary signs commercial area, right? You only need your congratulations graduate sign for seven days, but you might need your we're having a special fall fest here sign up for 30 days. Okay. So maybe we

do sort of split by districts. And so we're saying your temporary sign can only be up for 7 days in a residential district. You're going to have to carve out political signs and and not have a percentage assigned to it. Not have a percentage of sign and real estate signs. Real estate signs already out. This is where it all gets because real estate are very complicated to be. Um, Commissioner Rek, you're t you're thinking about something. I'm thinking that the that the percentages are burdensome. I mean, yeah, I I don't have any spatial visualization. I could look at a 40 by 30 foot house and Chuck were here, he'd go, "Oh, here's what it is. I'm clueless. I I mean I am just can't do it. And then in Annapolis they do it one uh linear one square foot to each linear foot of b of uh building. So everybody's got a different way of calculating. Um I happen to like St. Michael's way because it seems very precise. Okay for the uh this kind of event you can only have this size banner. For that kind of event you can have that you know. So they actually have really fine-tuned it um as far as all the different temporary signs in a commercial area only commercial area. So again if you want the banner for the graduates you know do they do anything there for residential? No I didn't I didn't see it for res I just I just want to make sure that whatever we select it is easily understood. Yes. that it doesn't cause more confusion, right? It should be understood of, oh, I only can do this

and it and it doesn't lead to confusion of, oh, now I have a fine, but I thought I was good with the regulation. My interpretation, I've got a question on that code enforcement letter. Does the first letter say you have you have one day to remove this sign and then there's a fine or I don't actually know about that would because if it says you have to remove the sign you've already removed it then you don't have to worry about the fine right I so I don't know how your code enforcement okay works you know um I think good to know the the trick here right is that we were kind of working down in like each sign can be this big and we were we're putting that all together and then we said okay well now people can have a whole lot of signage um and it's feeling confusing because they've got to see which kind of sign and so can we have a way to just give them a certain amount of signage for their lot um and so I think the question is do we one is still give them a certain amount of signage for their lot rather And or do we want to delineate each sign can be a certain size. And then is that based on a percentage or do we find a different way to give people you can do whatever you want within this area or is it easier to say this type of sign can only be this big and this type of sign can only be this big which which is more simple. Um, does your HOA have a signage uh set of rules? And what do you remember what their signage rules were for temporary signs? I don't recall at this time, but there is and it became an issue during um a presidential election. Oh, yeah. Well, so it there was somebody

somebody hung a sign somebody hung a sign that was pretty big off of uh and this was years ago off of their like balcony. And someone was like, you know, this exceeds the signage and so brought it to their attention. Yeah. Yeah. Codes are usually enforced by, you know, people who are unhappy with it. So they complain. Yeah. Um, okay. So, so we're not liking the percentages. I can hear that um as an issue. So, if we don't like the percentages, um, I mean, we we know big percentages like 25%. We know a quarter of a building would be 1/4 of we could we can do the big numbers, but when it comes down to little 5 percentage this and that, it gets a little more complicated. But maybe we clarify. Is it 15% of the size of the building or is it 15% of the size of the lot? No, it's the size of the size of the building part of the building. So if you can visualize, you know, okay, if it's not a quarter, then it's, you know, smaller than a quarter, a fourth of it, then it's, you know, again, yeah, it's going to have to be complaint and it's going to have to be. But I mean, don't you think that um if someone's going to a sign door, a business to have a sign made, let's say it's a for a business, and it's going to be on the front of the building. Don't most people have maybe they don't and maybe I don't know if it can be made available on the website a database that shows what that front facade or whichever facade is that issue. So they can bring that to the sign company. I am allowed to have a sign that 15% of this and this is my frontage and then

the sign company does it well. Well, I think where you get to be uh it's a challenge is really with the temporary signage because Okay. I'm confused which which we're discussing. Well, I mean the permanent signs um I think are a little easier in one way. Um you have money control, you know, there's is a great greater cost, but um okay, let's just go back. We don't are we hearing are we saying we don't like percentages? Do we want to go to a different method? Does everybody think that a different method would be better? I thought the reason we were switching to the percentages because we didn't want to break down the individual signs of like okay how many how like you know how many 2 by two signs or they could have or they could have 50 one by one signs you know that like that was kind of the scenario where yeah so there's a lot of I feel like there's a lot of hypotheticals so like I I thought I mean to me and I know it's not like everyone but like seeing a percentage of a sign I get a really good idea of you know looking at the fa I mean looking at the front of I cut it in half. Cut that in half and then half of half of a quarter is my sign. Like that's it. But no, not at all. Yeah. It's like if you just divide the house in half, cut that in half, that's about the amount of signs that you can have, you know? So, it's just I feel like that's a pretty standard like way of doing it rather than breaking down the individual signs. Agree with uh commercial. Sure. that that I think is probably expected by most businesses that go in that there are limitations of some kind and that they could maybe they're more adept or interested or whatever it is to figure out the percentages homeowners I I think we just So what about the homeowners that are allowed to have businesses like we're talking about in the area that's right across there? Do we want to prevent that from happening being different from like a strictly commercial building as

opposed to running a business kind of running a business out of your home and still having 15%. Up to 20 complicated. Why not just pick a number? Pick a number yet. Let's throw the voicemail and everybody has same. Yeah. If we're concerned about residential businesses having like their like the signs not being bigger, then I think we should just make that number less, you know, because they don't want 20% of their house being a sign in a neighborhood. And you're talking about temporary. I'm talking see I will I will define what I'm talking about at the beginning of we could why couldn't we separate out the uh RV2 and say if a business exists in RV2 they can have blank percentage which will be lower I suspect than any commercial endeavor that's the thing is that when we don't have zones we don't specify commercial whatever we're going to We're gonna we're gonna have a house in the RV1. You know, Commissioner Brown's gonna have a big, you know, somebody next door is gonna have a big commercial sign. Marijuana sold here or something. We're not I thought that was in there. We're not allowed to do that. I'm just, you know, being silly, but I'm just saying we got to we've got to be specific so that we don't have the other zones uh the RC, you know, the uh we just have got to be careful here that we don't allow them in all zones. Well, the other issue is I don't think anybody knows what zone they're in unless they're a commercial entity. I'm sure freestanding building. I mean, RB2 I mean I get it because you just talked about that area down there and the same exists for my house. Yeah, that's right. And your area Well, your

area is the TC the town the town um center center, right? Um town residential center or something. I can't remember what it is. Do you remember what her um where the across the street from the hair cutting place? Yeah. Right around the tangled area. That's neighborhood town commercial or something like that. My point is I don't think anybody knows. No, that's right. I just mean the concern is putting too much signage or otherwise careful excuse causes. So we can set in which residential uses are allowed that includes has 10% right instead of 15%. So then you have a permanent sign. You're talking permanent signage, right? Say that again. So any any zone which contains residential uses I don't think there should be any permanent signage in anything but commercial. Why would you want permanent signage in residential because the TC has residential and commercial except your house which is the mixed except the mixed areas. Yeah. Yeah. But the RV1 the um down here you talking about RB2 across from right. Exactly. Yeah. Right. So, um, but those do have little businesses in them. So, they want to advertise. They want to say mom and pops, you know, shoe store or shoe repair, you know. Um, so they could have a little sign that says, you know, mom and pop shoe repair, but we don't need to have 10% of the face of the building. What if they have a two-story

building uh where they sleep upstairs and they have their little shop downstairs? you know, do they really want to have a big sign that's two that's 10% of that entire face in a resident a residential community, a basically residential community. The other option is to use a percentage for commercial and use just a a total square footage for residential because do I haven't noticed any, but you know how sometimes people name their houses? Yes. I want to name my house actually anyway. Oh, that's Oh, yeah. I have noticed them. You guys, yes, residential areas have them. Um, so that's permanent sign that maybe it doesn't need a permit, but there has to be a p there has to be some allowable amount and maybe it's easier for residential uses to say x square feet. Um, regardless of how big your house or lot is, it's How about if we say other than commercial zones, uh, commercial zones will have this and all others will be allowed a, you know, no more than a 2x5 or two, you know, something some kind of a sign that they could put if they were going to name their house or if they were going to put up a little mom and pops, you know, um, shoe repair shop. How about if they just have a little sign that's, you know, what, you know, two by something like that. Something small that we could allow them a sign, but it's not intrusive or not imposing. Um, what does everybody think about that? And then you could you could also put up there, congratulations, graduate, or I don't know, whatever. But I don't I mean, but that would be the permanent sign. The temporary sign, you could have a banner, hey, happy, you know, graduation, whatever. And that could be your 3x8 or whatever we said, you know,

a banner would be because we need to have So now we're looking at districts. Now we're going back to looking at at zones again because we're coming up with these issues. So we, you know, in Annapolis, they do a chart and they have all the different zones and they have what you, you know, you know what the the chart is and they have every different kind of sign you sizes, whatever in the different zones. And I promise to make you a chart once we have this. I I know. I know. Figure it out if we have the chart now. The question is, do we want to go with that kind of system where you have the different zones and what they're allowed to have? Because that gets a littleated. But maybe not though. I mean, because we're trying to make it simple, but but you have so many. It's like the exceptions are swallowing the rule. That's the problem as I'm thinking about all the different um sections we have. And then we've got Jans, which is the mixed use situation. Jans, could you move, Jan? Yeah. Move into a normal area. Um, we need to have one of everybody dest here. Well, I still don't think that, you know, if you're going to put out in, you know, instructions by zone, you better have a zoning map right next to it so people can figure it out. They will not know. They will not know. So, to do that is is doubly confusing to me. Although I know it's necessary to separate some of that out. But how hard is it to find out what zone you're in? And I'm not saying that snarkily, but if you want to find out what zone you're in, who do you call? Well, no. I mean, can you not put in your I'm wondering if if I put my address in Google or in like the town, it's in the book. It is on our book. What I'm talking about for Yeah. Or it's probably on the website. On the website, right? and and so people could find it. Well, that makes sense. Number one, number one would be, what zone are

you in? Number two, what kind of signs? Check for the kind of sign. I mean, I just think that if you create the instructions and have links for things that they might need, hyperlinks or whatever, I don't think it would be that complicated. Um once you get the verbiage right because all you would have to have is your zone and then for temporary signs you get to have this for permanent signs you get to have that when then we'd have to delineate between temporary and permanent signs once again for each zone for each zone right but you and you have electronic messaging sign exempt sign going to go into right except for the school district which is a Jen again is a well, it's more than a jan. It's actually in a zone that really shouldn't have uh EMC's at all. This is where your zoning map is right here. Um it's in at the beginning when you go into the zoning code on e-code. It's there. You click on it and then it's right here. There could be a hyperlink under signs for that. Click here for your zoning, your your area. You could do a lot of things, but I'm just saying how people would actually use it. Yes. Yes. If they want to sign, you'd say, "Here's you need to go to www. what have you. Click tell them how to do it." We have commercial zones. We have four commercial zones and we have everybody else only two thing on. He's also talking. No longer. He was just talking to J. Okay. Put up a sign in your yard. Would you think, "Oh, I need to go to the zoning code and look and see what it is." Or you would just put a sign up in your yard. This is personal. The ladder.

The ladder. Yes. Sit on this committee. I'd be like, "Oh, my daughter's graduating. I'm just putting right." It's only if your neighbor complains and then you go, "Well, let me look and see what the rules really are." But you have to have rules set so that if indeed they're violating it, your neighbor has some, you know, a right to say, "Hey, you know, put take it down and make it smaller, whatever." Yeah. I think purpose was for for like if it was egregious, right? Like if it was something then we can have code come out, they can look at it and then handle it from there. And that's why benefit St. Michaels, I like how they put in exactly what size a temp a temporary residential could be. It's, you know, whatever it was. But I think we may have to go that route hearing what everybody's, you know, they don't like the percentage. I get it. Yeah. It's so vague. percentage and maybe have a little chart in there that says if this is the front of your house like you just drew if it's a Here it is. You can do this percentage, right? It's a little image that you know because you have some that can read and pick it up and then you have some that need the visual. That's true. It gets complicated when you have the like let's look at Winward Key. Of course, they are an HOA, but um they would probably have further restrictions, but if you had something that was two and three stories, you're going to have, you know, maybe some large signs, larger signs. The question is, do we want those in residential? In residential. Yeah. If you had just a single story house, it wouldn't be any problem. But, you know, but you can't discriminate. I mean, you can't discriminate because of the lot size or the house size. Yes, you can easily discriminate. If you if you say, you know, a certain square footage of the face, then yes, it's going to be I mean, yeah, I mean, a smaller house is going to have a smaller sign, right? So, I guess you could call that discrimination source. You're small. You're going to

have a small sign. I think Commissioner Han, what you said earlier about if you're a resident, then you can have your sign, temporary sign for seven days, right? So, if that's the rule, residents can have a temporary sign for 7 days. If a resident wants a sign for longer than 7 days, then they have to comply with the rest of the regulations, right? So, you have your huge graduation sign, your neighbor hates it, but it's going to be gone in a week before the mail even gets to you telling you to remove it. Um, so we just allow that because you're you're right, your average person isn't going to ask that. So that take that out of it and then if you want to have a sign up for 30 days or 3 months, now it's impacting your neighbor a lot more for a longer period of time and so you're going to have to comply with the percentages and we can provide graphics and tables to go along with that. Does that sound fair? Sounds fair to me. May I ask? Yes, please. Sounds fair to me. I would still like to know the answer to the question of the process that the code violation letters because it's no good if you have it for let's say well if it's if you're saying kind of like seven seven days, right? But somebody complains and then you get a letter. Well, it's one thing if they say we're finding you. We looked at your sign or we saw a picture that your neighbor sent us and not you don't get a chance to cure by taking it down. You might have already cured, but they automatically slap a fine. I don't think that's necessarily what we want either. I just just like to know kind of what the steps are leading up to a fine.

I can work with code compliance to Thank you. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No, that's totally fine. Thank you. Okay. So, all right. So, let's try and figure out which direction we want to go in. So, now it sounds as though we want to break things down by district. And I think this solution where you allow it for seven days in a and we can clarif we say residential only or on a residential lot then that allows you to not have to break it by district. to just this one thing is allowed almost it's almost actually an exempt inexempt signs rather than but what if you have a mixed use where people live upstairs the business is downstairs we've got a couple of those across again from commissioner RK's house what do you do then that it has to be the only use on the lot is residential so if the lot has so that has to be written somewhere okay if you if you have your residence above your business and your child is graduating, you're not going to be able to use you're going to have to get a either comply or get a permit, but everyone else can put their graduation sign up. So, you're saying if it's mixed use, you have you can have the commercial like I'm thinking of the house with the window uh the window store window corner and yes and um you have the commercial banner downstairs stairs or whatever for the commercial use the signage but the guy upstairs can't have signage for happy graduation you know Bradley right so you can't have different signage for different uses within the same lot Mr.

because then you are going to have to regulate the content of the sign because I mean we need some help here if yes if you allow okay if you allow the 7-day exemption where there's a commercial and a residential use and we're not regulating the content of the sign which is a goal then they can put sale on windows today and leave it up for seven days and it's exempt. So, unfortunately, Bradley, who lives upstairs, can't put his graduation sign, okay, there. Okay. Okay. Because they've maxed out their commercial signage or their commercial their usage of signs or their ability to have more signs because they're commercial zones. So, they don't get a 7-day exemption. Oh, okay. Okay. Temporary. Okay. Okay. I got it. Okay. Okay. So let's let's let's roll this in then. So what are your thoughts about then delineating by district, delineium by temporary versus permanent and being more specific as far as how many days and what size and all that? Should we just go back and start from square one on that one then? For each type of sign for each zone. For each zone basically each zone that's not an HOA, right? Yeah. Which is not mean but for any kind of sign. But I guess so we'd have we have to go through every kind of sign. Mhm. Well, every um well, temporary versus commercial. Yeah. So, I think we're back to this organization question, right? Um that

you know, both work, right? Are we organizing by here's your total area sign, do with it what you will, or are we saying these are the signs you can have and this is h how big they can be in this area in each area or it but are we going to go with percentages again or are we going to go with Well, I think first we just want to figure out first the format cuz right so we had this format um like three months ago and that's okay and so this is this new format and so the question for the commission right is which format do you want both of them can work but I think we need to choose one yeah we obviously need to now well we change We changed to what we have today based on Mrs. Weaver's Commissioner Weaver's gone for the next month. So then I could have chickens on that. Hey intentional joke. It's good. Pretty funny. Thank you for my say. Okay. What is simpler for the the commercial? I'm not worried about the commercial people. I'm worried about the homeowner that is going to do something and their their knowledge of signs and whether it's percentage and all that stuff is more complicated than than I think it should be. Do we have do we have that problem now?

Well, as I mean for temporary, we have that problem now with residential areas with signs and I was going to say we had code enforcement in front of us telling us what issues they've seen. I would say don't fix it if it isn't broke or break it and then fix it. That's that's the optimist optimist way of looking at it. I always look at this this job is you know what's the worst thing that could happen because it will happen. You know the worst thing will always happen. You want to tell everybody what they can do. I want to let them do what they want essentially within certain bounds. Well, that's the question. What are the bounds though? So, you sound like a percentage guy then. I mean, that's that's that's what you defined, right? Like I like the code the way it's written in in the board. He likes the original code. The original code. Okay. Okay. I I don't see a problem that I'm fixing here, right? Um except that we do have new types of signs. We have when that thing wasn't written, we didn't we didn't have the feather signs. We didn't have the EMC's like we have today. We um you know, we have a lot more abuses. We have a we've had a lot of abuses with um our political signs. We've had I mean, there's just there's a lot of things that we need to fine-tune. It's been complicated. She had three people in here today not understanding how that that sign code reads and not understanding what you know it's not really very well written. We're trying to make it simpler for the lay person or the the business person. You're trying to make it simpler. Well, this is this is the this was the goal was to make it simpler and to make it more readable sausage. But I mean, you know, if you go and read this again, you'll go, there's a lot of mis, you know, you you you can interpret it in so many different ways and we want to make it less confusing, I think. And you're

you're right. Maybe we're not making it uh simpler. Tough. I do think though, when I look at like St. Michael's, it's a lot more specific and a lot more understandable. And you go, well, what's 5%? What's Okay, well, they have actually u numbers. They have so many square feet of sign, whatever. I think personally in residential there shouldn't be any signs except for a temporary banner that's up for seven days and that's it. So I I could see or you know if they want their little name plate they can do that but you know I don't think we even need to write that in. I think that's going to go anyway. But I think there shouldn't be any signage in residential unless it's like a temporary ba banner or you know congratulations or whatever it is they're going to put up there. But what else what else what else were we thinking about? I mean, we've got the political signs covered, the real estate signs covered, temporary, right? But what else would someone in a residential area except if they wanted to name their house or something, but other than that, what would you possibly except for the RV2 which is residential and just talking strictly residential strictly residential which would be the other residences um in so that's you know probably 20% of the homes here I would say. Yeah, I can't think of anything else. Well, they're political signs. They're congratulation kind of signs, right? That's the banners, right? Not here in town, but some divorce people signs. Pretty ugly. Yeah, they can get ugly. Yeah, you can get um but you know, maybe Commissioner Brown is right. We don't really even need to address it. Maybe it just takes care of itself because people complain, "Hey, neighbor, please take that down." But maybe we don't even need to address it. Have Have we had a lot of complaints? So, I was Do you guys remember this?

This was the commercial um signs and we went through all the ones that were non-compliant. Um we didn't actually I can I can make it bigger. Um these the non-compliant signs the non-complian signs are in commercial zones. the non-compliance signs will continue to exist as long as they ask for a permit. That's what this says, right? So, in our new regulations, so they they continue to exist the way they are as long as they ask for a permit. So, new businesses will be restricted, but the old businesses won't. So yes, what if if we don't do anything to allow electronic if we don't make any changes to allow things like electronic signs then and we allow the non-conforming signs to come in then we're basically incentivizing just installing a sign without a permit and then getting a permit later because the town doesn't want to ask you to remove your right to remove your sign which I mean that it'll have we'd have to do that moving forward but I think it's better to regulate the signs and allow them so that there's some regulations around them because you you have the flashing blinking issue. If we don't address it, then we're still going to have the flashing blinking issue and we're incentivizing where where do we have a flashing blinking issue? Um, the Siko does that occasionally. The American Legion has a

pretty quick change over traders in the school and the somebody else could and Yeah. Well, that's the Rod and Real moves pretty slow. That's the problem. Where? Rod andreal moves pretty slow. Um I don't know if you were here for this. It was like the three second to five second whatever timeline. It was pretty Larry. I also think though that don't we also have to maybe look a little bit to the future and say with changes in signs people new businesses um we don't have certain regulations. Um we we have regulations. Okay. But I also think like with the the lighting I don't and I don't recall all of this offh hand but um you know about kind of like light pollution like where you know if there are spotlights or something. So um I do think it's good to put some kind of modern interpretation tweaks with and if I understand to the existing well I mean at the very least because there you know people will march up to the line. Some people will you know do a a leap across it. Some people will do just a little toe. But I think that we have to keep up with the times. For example, if you look at commercial districts and that area that she has in bold, that's currently in our current code. Correct. That's a word for word from our current code. And if you read Kifi a little bit, yes, it is pretty confusing actually. It starts out with the total area of all visible signs on a building, its windows or any other area of lot etc., etc. uh cannot exceed 15%. Then the next thing says um the total area of all such signage shall not cover more than 15% of the windows total area. So the problem is is

that this is so confusing as it's written as it was written that this is why we have to try and make it simpler and mean the same kind of thing. So, if you can take what that says and make it mean the same thing, then we've done our job. So, we're talking temporary commercial and yes, still temporary commercial. And they're talking um the visible signs on the building, including its windows and everything else on the on the building face. the um it can't exceed 15% of the total it should say the total square footage. It doesn't say it says total of each street facing side of the see that's not even written very well so you can't even understand what it means. It says the total area of all visible signs on a building, it should have a comma, its windows, comma, or any other area of a lot or combination of lots that make up a single property, comma, shall not exceed 15% of the total of each streeting side of the building. They should say total square footage or total something. I mean, there's just words left out. And um and then of course you go down and they they cover windows again. And so you're are you saying are you adding the 15% to that 15% or what are what are you saying here? So again we have to um you're reading from the old code or from Yes. That is that is the old code. What we're reading is the old code. Where is it in the old code? I don't know that it's exactly. Is this not the old code? It's based on the old code. Oh, and the old conversation I have the old can't read for what you're saying. I don't thought this was the old code that we

were trying to revise, but u maybe you've already rewritten some of it. I don't know. Um but anyway, the point is we've got a what? Maybe we should take a look at it and see what where it says anything. Okay. So, you read it now. Now that we're not getting anywhere on this one temporary situation here, um then we have the question, okay, let's go to one more issue since we can't even figure that issue out. Then we get into the permitted versus non-permitted issues. If you go down to the bottom of our page um 15, it says number two, allowed without a permit. A-frames, turn the page, banners, feather flag signs, flags, pennant streamers, yard signs, real well, they don't have real estate in there, but probably real estate should have been in there. I don't know. But but the question is, I guess real estate does. I know you could have some real estate signs in commercial. Um, how do we want to look at those as being permitted or not permitted? Do we not want feather flag signs permitted or do we just want them every five feet on certain businesses or do we not care? Do we want any size banners or do we care? Um, what if somebody has a banner and they leave it up all year and they make it a a temporary sign into a permanent sign because basically there's no permit. So, we're not really following its length of term. So, how do we want to look at that as an issue? Permits versus no permits. So, in other words, number two, those

are all uh signs that are allowed without a permit. Do we want to permit them? So, we have more control over the length of time they're up. I've noticed that feather flag signs are commonly used, of course, now, and they're used almost as a permanent sign. They're an addition to what they have, you know, otherwise. So, do we really not want to permit them or do we want them every 10 feet or do they I mean some towns actually have pages of just how you handle flag those feather flag signs. What does everybody think about that issue? The current code says permit requirements for signs. No on premises sign over four square feet in area. No off- premises sign except government signs of any size shall be erected, affixed, painted, hung, or otherwise displayed, altered, or repaired unless a permit therefore has been issued. No permit shall be required for the repainting or repairing of a sign which conforms to the provisions of this chapter. signs it on theaters. Advertising changes in program shall not require permits except for the initial installation thereof and all signs of any size must comply with all the regulations contained herein irrespective of whether a permit is required. Um, actually, and it goes on to signs permitted in residential areas and signs permitted in commercial districts. Actually, does everybody have their zoning code books with them? I don't have mine, but I'm sharing. I am putting it up here if you can. Got it as big as I can get it. Excellent. You You know what? Maybe we need to just take it from

the old book as as um we're looking at it here. They may actually have uh better standards than we thought. If you go to F, signs permitted in residential districts. Are you at F? Yeah, we're in F. Well, look on the board up there. Uh, that's F. The F. I just moved the F over so you can see more of the words. Oh, so on premises. So, it says on premises sign. Um, if you want to read through that, maybe we just uh if you go down to F, they actually have 100 square feet. They actually have specific numbers, which I do like. I do think like on C when it talks about illuminated that might be where we want to maybe just kind of enlarge that to talk about some of those um other impeding traffic or just the other things that we had about how how bright how it shines just those things. Hm. So, um, you want to put in you want to make it more specific as far as what the elimination would be. I I mean, I think it's not a bad idea because, um, if someone's got an Well, I hard because I live in it with an HOA and I can't imagine illuminated light, but let's say someone's got illuminated light for their Christmas display. Um, and they think it's wonderful and you find that it's shining in your front wind, something. Mhm. I I do think it's important that we there be some direction to the Yeah, just a little bit. Just a little bit because I think we know more now about light pollution than perhaps when this was written. Just since we have the details, we've already got that in this in this new code. We can probably add that, right? I mean,

and realistically, following up what you said, should there be a timing like after 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock? They shouldn't be they should automatically be turned off so that they're not disturbing because it's res residential. Okay. So add times. Okay. So they don't bother the birds and the people. Right. The birds. Maybe what we should do is now that you can see it up there on um Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. Jan, can you see that? Okay. Up there if you can read. What do you want us? What's specific? First of all look at signs permitted in residential districts. I think it's not a bad idea that we look at districts and they've got it actually um they've actually got it out here pretty specifically. I think it's it's pretty good. Um except that it might be a little wordy. For example, um E, which is the real estate one. Uh I don't know if we need to have so much written. Um it's just basically the real but maybe we do. I don't know. Maybe we do. Um and actually it's pretty complete when you think about that. But I think you're right about C. C needs to be added to as far as the lighting's concerned. sign advertising the development of the property. Okay. What else in residential? Is there anything else? You know, the other thing they don't have on residential is if you wanted to have the little residential house signs naming your house and that I know that in some towns they have that. Do we need to add that like any sign under a certain square footage we don't worry about at all or does it matter? I guess it wouldn't matter because if these are permitted, what the heck? I don't think it will.

The existing code says two square feet. Where are you reading that? For what? Signs permitted in residential districts. Sign indicating the name or number of the building or premises shall or the accessory use of a dwelling for a home occupation provided such shall not exceed two square ft. Not more than one such shine shall be erected. I I happen to like how this is actually, you know, pretty fairly complete. It kind of handles everything that we were talking about with residential. What does everybody else think about it? Anything that needs to be changed or added. I would need to reread it simply because we were going in another direction to Commissioner Brown is saying I think this looks like pretty much covering what we were talking about right there. F I mean F signs peritted in residential districts. I mean I'm good with everything. The only thing is I would have see if it's like an illumined sign that there should it should go off at a certain time. So depending on how bright it is, it doesn't affect other residents. Right. Let's let's um what would you say? 10:00 off at 10:00 on it. What is the noise ordinance? Isn't it 10? What is what noise? 10 o'clock. Yeah. Yeah. Then let's stick with it. That'll be easy to remember. Oh, in that section are we also going to talk about Oh, this is residential. Much easier. Okay. And if you go on to um you're on is the bottom one E? Yes. E. Can you scroll down and go to G

through J? There's more on this. There's G through J. Temporary contractors, architects, or building signs. And then H is traffic control and directional signs. trespassing signs if you it's up now. Just trying to find it in here. Yeah. And then Jay is temporary signage announcing a campaign, etc. Um that can't exceed 12 square feet. Oh yeah, and it's got numbered days and yeah, I think that that is for residential. I think that is pretty good actually. You're going to have a thing for off- premises signs. Okay. Interesting. Anything else that needs to be added to this or other than the lighting complete issue? Um, okay. The one thing that they don't have is if you want to put a b a temporary uh banner up or something like that. You know those big banners that we were talking about in in here. Yeah. Does it does it say it actually um you know if you want to put up one of these congratulation banners that are like huge and I it's so rare that you get those and it's usually at certain times of the year but do we need to add that or is it a big deal big problem?

I'm wondering on Jay if I was gonna say can we add it in Jay I was thinking temporary signs announcing a campaign drive or event of a civic philanthropic educational or religious organization or could we put in there personal or what if congratulatory celebratory what if it didn't say anything about the content of the sign. What if it just said temporary signs? Oh, not do it. Temporary signs. That's a good idea. About temporary announcement signs or something to identify what we're talking maybe guiding them towards temporary signs. Okay, let's just say temporary signs. How about that? Nonsorilla's nature. Well, I mean, do you I was just kidding. Temporary signs. Uh other should we just say other temporary signs or announcement signs? Should we call them announcement signs? I think other makes sums it up. Or you could say other signs such as to, for example, to include but not limited to happy birthday, congratulations on the baby, the stroke, the delivery. You know, you're an attorney, right? Yes. Okay. We could, but you don't have Yeah. How about just say a put all those in and then or a celebration or you know how about a celebration. We can just put a celebratory sign. Can we just add that and that'll be done? Well, we we'll put Miss Franklin on that one.

Okay. So, let's go to G. Now that we've kind of figured out that we like F. Okay. Let's go to G, which is signs permitted in the commercial districts. Let's see how they did do it. It looks like it's pretty similar to how we're looking at it right now actually. Can you scroll to the next group which is signs permitted in the commercial districts on premises signs? All signs permitted in subsection F at the standards prescribed therein except as otherwise provided in the subsection. That sounds a little confusing. That's good. Then we beef up the part about the lighting and everything. in F. Yes, that's true. Oh, except let's see. All signs permitted in subsection F at the standards prescribed therein except as otherwise provided in this section. Okay. Signs for permitted non-residential uses provided. Let me get back to the 10% but that's 10% is easier to discern. Can everybody read what's going on with one? I don't have to read it out loud. So you can everybody like the percentage down there 10. They go this is where that language came. Yeah, I know. I understand. This is where it came from. I got it. So, does everybody like the way it's written in the old Oh, wait a minute. Or 100 square feet. So, I think that's limited. If if if the building's big, then whichever comes first is the 10% or the 100 square feet.

Mhm. Is what you're limited to. And does this for the commercial, you know, that sometimes they'll use those signs that are on like, you know, a little um like a trailer kind of thing with the wheels. I don't I don't know if that this I don't know if we have to even address that. I don't know if that's included. Well, you're talking temporary sign. You're talking about temporary sign, right? But this is just on premises. So I I don't know. I'm just It's Oh, these are We're talking permanent signs. Well, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait. Okay, I'm getting confused. No. Are these signs that need a permit or they're just allowed in residential? Going back to F, those are signs that are allowed in residential districts without a permit. Correct. Oh, they need a permit. Permit standards are different permit requirements. So, so F requires a permit. Yeah. Permitted. Why does it keep doing that? I don't even not that you need a permit. So the permit requirements are any on premises sign that's over four square four square feet in area any offremis sign um though all those things those those two things need permit the only thing that doesn't need a permit is an on premises sign under four square feet right okay So F then would require permits. That would require permit. I think it could state that signs requiring a permit in residential districts. It almost looks like it's signs allowed. That's right. That's how I read it. We need to change how that's okay. See that

confused me. So all right. So signs allowed with permit. Should we want to say it that way or can you give me a reference to which F? I'm sorry. We're on F where it says signs permitted in residential districts. Let's go back to that. We need to say it more specifically. Fines allowed with permit if we want to permit all this, right? We want to Well, that means that anybody who wants to go in with I would say permits required for the following signs. Yes. in residential districts. Yes. I said that again. Permits required for the following signs in residential districts. Well, do we want to start out with residential districts that people under you know do you how do you you can put residential district colon? Let's do that. resident. Let's start out because then then people when they look at a certain area, they go, "Okay, this is for residential residential districts and then permits required." Permits required. Permitted permits required as follows or Yeah. or something like right. She's I am I'm slower this way. Yes, you are. I've noticed. Okay. You just take your time, Sarah. She goes like, typing, which is like the wind is what you meant to say. I meant to say that, but I didn't. Residential districts colon permit request. That's right. I think we need to start out with the districts so it's not confusing. I think so because then people can go, I'm in a res. Okay.

Districts. Bam. Commercial districts. Bam. Okay, good. permits required. It should be delineated so you can you know like a dictionary a bigger font size the three devil children down there they are the devil right down there. Okay. So far except that we haven't tidied it. We haven't consolidated made it smaller, but I guess you know it says what it says and Commissioner Brown likes it. Let's just keep it. Okay. So, we've now got a new title. We We're going to change number C or letter C to add more about the elimination and the times for like uh they should be off at 10:00, back on at 8 or whatever it is. We want to do 10 to 8 in the morning or something like that, right? Is that what we decided? 10 to 8 in the morning or something like seven in the morning. I don't care. It's illumination. Who cares about the daytime? But off at 10. Let's just say off at 10. Um people might not remain lit beyond. Yeah. But someone might put but if you if you don't delineate the hour, someone could say, "I'm going to put it on at 3:00 in the morning." You know what I'm saying? Like have a time period. I I just think someone might find a way to be cute about no lights between when and when. Well, through the quiet hours. Yeah. Which are what? I don't know. Start it starts like 7 to 7. 10 to 7. 10 p.m. to 7 or something like that. 10 p.m. to 7 a.m. Okay. And 7 a.m. Whatever. That's probably pretty good for the environment, too. That's probably a good good idea even though it's a little bit I know that I'm just thinking it's easier to remember but then again I can't remember what time the five hours are. So

okay I like it. You're talking about turning lighted signs off. We're talking about in residential areas if they have like holiday lights or um illuminated signs. if they have they they apparently can have some illuminated signs in the residential areas. I don't know. I mean, you you're walking Home Depot and they've got a huge aisle of solar lights that you you can do. You've got lighted uh got lights that when you Oh, that's right. That's not an illuminated sign. That's Heather. Those are just some my neighbor leaves her her lights on her garage all night long. A completely dark neighborhood. They're talk This is talking about an illuminated sign. Um, and I guess the question is what kind of signs in in residential areas are we talking about that would be illuminated? I thought we were talking about holiday lights and that that with a um whatever those things are called. Spotlights. Thank you. That's what I thought we were talking. I don't know what other kind of illuminated sign anybody would have in a residential area myself. That's not really a sign. It's more part of a artistic display as opposed to for safety of your home and neighborhood. Some people, I mean, have even like lights, you know, that move like a spotlight. Do we care? I mean, everybody was talking about how No, they didn't care about the holiday lights. Maybe we do we care. They're turned off. I don't I don't think we care about that. They're

talking about a illuminating a sign. So, I guess the question is which kind of signs are we talking about? trespassing signs, uh, c signs on campaigns or civic events or I don't know. But let's say let's say someone has a political sign and they happen to have moved their solar lights a little closer, but they I think it's maybe it is too much to regulate. I mean, because yeah, a solar light could could be for you know, their dog has to go out in 3 in the morning. Mhm. There's the light and it happens to light up the political sign. That's just a natural consequence. I was thinking more of just the ones where people have these roving spotlights at holiday times cuz everything's gotten so much more intricate and complex with lights. I think those were the kinds that I was more concerned about. This kind of roving spotlight kind. if that would keep going and it might create something with a neighbor visually. Well, I think the way they have it written probably is adequate. A sign, if illuminated, shall be indirectly lit and no flashing lights or backlit signs shall be permitted. Does flashing mean also, you know, rotating? And do you just want to add in their rotating or do you want to add in um something other than flashing? I guess if it has remember this is on a sign. We're talking a sign. So I'm just you know what what would residential and it's a sign but that's off topic. I thought can we not put something in there just for maybe I'm thinking it's a problem and it's not but you just like I don't know if you remember but like those those um at the

holiday time there might be a reindeer or a Santa Claus in CVS I remembered it and it sang like the same tiny Christmas carol in this cartoony voice and you know Mhm. A lot of people want to shoot the reindeer because it wouldn't stop. And sometimes people have that in their display and it could be, you know what I'm saying? That's all I'm saying is that But that is sound, not light. But I got it. I understand. It's annoying. Annoyance. Okay. Well, well, I mean, everyone, I mean, um, I think those are one of those situations where, you know, they're going to come up occasionally, but I don't know if you need to write a code around it. I mean, that that that makes sense as well to me. agree with you. Yeah. Neighborhood things where you go and tap on their door and go, you know, that's kind of annoying. Um, does anybody disagree? Do you think we need to add a line in here that would take the annoyance away from lighting? Because we're not talking sound. We're just talking right. No, but I meant sort of the holidays everything gets it does get a little celebratory. What can I tell you? That's okay. Okay. I think is everybody happy with F as it is now? We if we're going back to C, do we really need to do anything with the elimination after all or can we just go with the entire F as it was? I don't know enough about lighting. Well, the saying that the sign can't actually be lit. It's got to be indirectly lit. Right. Right. Right. Right. I just I just don't know about because there was so much, you know, how bright I just talking lumens. Do do you want do you want to add in a sign something that says and may not um um what is the term not filter off

into another neighbor's yard or may not um disturb neighboring yards or neighbor neighbors and you want to put something like that in there may not and and then again I mean it's hard because solar you like solar lights will go on and I think that's okay you know so maybe you don't put anything more in there I think for for residential areas, the signs that are lit aren't signs on people's individual residential lots. They're the HOA signs, right? You mean like don't park here? You mean like what HOA signs when you go into the HOA? I guess I haven't I'm not in an angle to notice when I go out, but like does Richfield station have lights on their sign as you go in. The main sign on the on the as you're coming down the road. We have that in Bay Hill lights on there to illuminate. I think that's really what this is referring to because most people in their yard aren't putting in a sign and then lighting it. signs that exist in residential districts because they're an entrance sign more than okay then I think it may be fine the way it is because we have them too in Bay View Hills but they don't face into any one's yard you know window well do you want to have something like that and may not shine into any other residential or any neighboring windows. Do you want to just add a simple phrase like that? I think it would be all right. Why don't we just add that just may not lighting may not into neighboring in Yeah. or something may not shine into other uh res

motion detector lights already. Yeah. But those aren't signs. So those are That's right. That's right. I'm sorry. Quick sand around here. Mhm. Now, if you continue on to the science permitted in the commercial districts, um Oh, I know. I was going to before we go on to that. Um there is nothing about temporary versus permanent signs, is there? Or did I not see? I haven't seen it. So what this doesn't do is delineate between permanent and temporary which is they do have on F uh you know F down below a temporary sign advertising they do have some temporary mixed in. So how they do it here is they mix it all in. Yes. So going to G signs permitted in the commercial districts um signs for permitted non-resident residential uses signs for permitted residential uses provided the aggregate area of all signs attached to or printed on a wall shall not exceed 10% of the area of the building face to which they are attached and painted or 100 square feet whichever is less. So basically this is more restrictive than what what this is even more restrictive. That's pretty funny actually. Um then they have freestanding signs identifying a single building or its business or a shopping center in accordance with the following schedule and then you can all read what the schedule is. That seems fairly logical. I just want to clarify that it's not necessarily that it's less restrictive, but because we were combining

attached signs and detached signs, I changed it to 15%. Oh, I see. I see. I see. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So um then they have the freestanding signs identifying a single building or its business or shopping center accordance with the following schedule. Um the area of any freestanding sign shall not exceed one square foot for each lineal foot of street frontage occupied by the use on which or in connection with which the sign is to be erected. But in no case shall the area of the sign exceed 100 square feet. How does that sound to everybody? Does everybody understand that? Does it make sense to you? So, where would Okay, funage. Okay. Can I just um Yes. Under B1, the last sentence does not the last line does not make sense to me. Um when it says the area of the building face to which they are attached and painted, should that be or Yes. Oh, well, okay. Thank you. There. Did you say where did you B sign? Would you say B B1 B1 under G? Under G. The aggregate area of all signs attached to or printed on a wall shall not exceed 10% of the area of the building face to which they are attached and painted or 100 square ft whichever is less. So they're they're saying if they painted the sign on the building not just attached it but possibly done a mural or but isn't that ore? I I just don't I this we want a comma in there to separate pandi and or no no it's

attached saying it's attached and painted right is or comma or 100 square feet whichever is less so that's why I'm saying a comma after paint no I'm saying it should be attached or painted because a sign might not be oh I might not to which they are attached to be painted might be it might be like a um illuminated or it might be something else and not painted. Would that be like a I don't know painted on the wall. Yeah, I I just got You just died. Huh? What did you just say? Oh, I So to which they are attached and or painted or how do you want to reward that to make sense of both signs to or printed on a building? We'll see when it says in the first one of the aggregate area of all signs attached to or printed on a building. So I think then that the last sentence should also then say uh attached to or printed. Oh you think instead of painted it should be printed. I just think that should be consistent. Yeah. The first sentence makes sense that that's what they were trying to say. The aggregate area of all signs attached to or printed on a building shall not exceed 10% of the area of the building face to which they are. Well, I think we just say the building face. I Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Maybe we should take out that the aggreate sign the aggreate area of all signs attached to or printed on a building shall not exceed 10% of the area of the building space or 100 square feet, whichever is less. Okay. I like that. Did you get that, Miss Franklin? She's lost. I think we lost her. She's not even anymore. She's dead. So,

shall the aggregate area of all signs attached to or printed on a building shall not exceed 10% of the area of the area of the building of the building or Yeah. of the building face, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's building face. Yeah, we're deleting or which they are attached to which they are attached or painted. Right. Right. Got it. The building face or 100 square feet whichever is less. Okay. I think that does you know what that made that a lot clearer actually now that you mentioned it. Thank you for that. Okay. That was okay. So good. Now if you keep going down I think we've clear we've agreed that number GB2 is okay correct the total square footage I mean frontage excuse me so for a th00and 1 to a th00and is one freestanding sign and then anything larger can have two. So, does that include the um feather sign or not? Is that a free is a flag a feather flag? Is that a free sanding or what is that? My my understanding is the intent of this what what this is trying to do is give you your American Legion sign or your sign over at the shopping center that has the different businesses listed. So, or at Sitco, the one that or Traders, there's the standing up sign that's in the parking lot, not the one attached to the bed that So, you can attach to the building and then you can have this additional sign. This isn't

really talking about temporary signs. Okay, so these are talking permanent signs. It doesn't say that, but that's how I would interpret it. So, should we say signs? Okay. Should we go back to G and change that title to conform to the residential district? Yes. So, let's put commercial district colon um commercial districts permit required. It signs as common I think or something like that. I have written commercial district permit required. Permits required. Okay. Um, all right. So, these are permanent signs. So, where do we add the temporary sign here? Do we want to add that as number 2A or what do we want to do here? Do we want to add they're kind of dealt with? How do we want to do temporary signs? Well, here's here they are. They're here. They're 14. Uh so there are eight general sign regulations 14 all portable signs shall be limited as follows. Okay. All portable signs shall be limited as follows. Do we want to add something when they talk about search lights? Is that where we kind of put in some more defining language about the lumens and about I don't know if that's appropriate or not. We want search lights, but I think well we were going to uh we're out too. We don't have to have hot air balloons or search lights if you don't want to. I mean the problem with hot air balloons

and we were talking about that before. Um, how do you um what kind of safety is involved with the hot air balloons? What kind of device do you use to create the hot air? I mean, is there safety? Is there I mean, it's only going to be for 72 72 hours in a year. I got it. But is this something that we need to have in this little tiny town as a hot air balloon? I don't think so. And do we need a search light in this tiny little town? I mean, I just don't think we need either one of those. And I would say we I say Personally, I would put them as prohibited because search lights when you're driving could be distracting. You know, if you're driving down, you just don't need, you know, it's too small. It's like FBI and driving with all the birds that we have and whatnot. It's confusing and blah blah blah. I say we um the hot air balloons and the search lights we prohibit. Yeah. Anybody disagree with that idea? He doesn't care. Okay. Okay. Let's put that as prohibit. Um, penants and banners with no words or advertising are permitted for a display period onto 14 days to an event and not to exceed 30 days per year for sure. Oh, they're just like the you know just So when how do you have a banner without a word on it though? I guess it could have um it it like if symbol, right? It might not be advertising, but it you might have Christmas trees on it or you know Well, I'm just saying for decoration. No, no, no, no. I'm saying for a store. Let's say that the antiques. Oh god, now she's gonna I don't mean to. I don't care if there are words on it. I mean, if you're right, I don't care. I don't care saying let's allow them words. So I would cross out right the with no words or

advertising. Is anybody No problem. Yeah with that. So let's cross out the with no words or advertising part of it. Yeah. Penis and banners are permitted for display periods not to exceed 14 days prior to an event not to exceed 30 days. I think that sounds great. Me too. C. One sandwich type A-frame sign is permitted per business on premises subject to the following. And I think this all looks good. What is called for in the town road ordinance? Okay, we don't know what that is. We'll have to uh maybe you want to have that number three. Do we want to I I'm pretty sure I checked it and that's where I came up with the visibility thing. No, I think it's how I identified that the A-frames over at Sika were where they didn't need to be, but I don't remember because this was several months ago when I did that. So, I I'll have to go back and look at it. But, but I think that someone's not going to know what the town ordinance is. So it might be good just if it's easily collapsed and readable. I think it should be in three. Yeah. So in other words, spell it out. In other words, okay. So So on number three, Miss Franklin, if you could put that information as to what the town road ordinance is or kind of, you know, summarize it and put it in there, that'd be great. Well, on number three, we I thought um the last time we talked about this, we didn't want sidewalk. You know, those A-frame signs can very easily go on a sidewalk. So, maybe we could say can't restrict sight difference or Well, they shouldn't be on

the sidewalk, though, because Oh, well, maybe we should include that as number. I'm pretty sure that's in the road in that town road ordinance, right? So it's not allowed on private public property or public right away etc. Okay. You know what if can you bring back the language with that next time so we can look at that? Yes. I want to make sure I understand. So basically take this existing sign ordinance pop it into a word doc and make the edits that we made tonight. Should I add the electronic sign EMC regulation? Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And I I thought though, just going back about the town road ordinance that you would put language under we're talking about three. Yeah. Yeah. With three. What that town ordinance? Yes. Sorry, I got that. I I just want to make sure that was on the list. Okay. Thank you. Um, I just want to make sure I bring you what you're asking for. So that's why I want to So I'll bring the existing sign ordinance and I'll incorporate the EMC's. The thing about in going incorporate the EMC's. No, that's in there. Okay. So I have to check if the illumination standards with the lumens like those are tied to the MC's. So they may need to come in too, but they can come in in a separate place. um in in this electronic messaging centers G1 C talks about section J. There is no section J

page page 19. All the references are going to have to be updated. All the references are going to have to be updated. Yeah. And then on the next page, it has prohibited that's the top of the page, page 20, uh, the transition time between messages and message frames may employ either instantaneous page resolve or other transition effects not prohibited in H4. No H4, right? So I you'll just have to find them. So all of the references I think most of the references broke when the whole thing got reorganized. But rather than continuing to do that, I've kind of just kept track of them and once we finalize everything, I can get the references in. Planing it out. Yeah. Are are you going to add um section I violations? Yes, we got to go over that. We haven't gone over that yet. Okay, we have to go over violations. We have to go over um actually we're not we're um let's see violations. Okay, I just want to make sure I understand. Are are we using this whi which which ordinance am I using? The county the current town council ordinance that we right are using currently. We just looked over and I think we all agreed that the F is looking very good, which is the now the residential districts Poland permits required and the G is very good and I think we should keep that with some of the changes that we've made including

the language for the to town road ordinance and we want to prohibit the hot air balloons and search lights. Um I also think we should add a few more things to 14 all portable signs. I think we should if we go to um what uh Sarah has written up here. If we go to number 14, I think we should make some more changes to the all portable signs shall be limited to or shall be limited as follows. I think we should that's where we need to put in well we've also got all of our exempt we got to put in our exempt stuff that we've come up and all that but I think we should also put in like no snipe signs the snipe signs are the ones that you put on telephone poles and rocks and you know those should be prohibited and those are are considered temporary signs but they should not be allowed right we I think we talked about that isn't that said someplace else well I don't see it in the I don't see it in version. I don't know. Maybe it's in here. Oh, wait. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You are right. 13. No sign shall be placed on rocks tree, but it should say uh snipe signs in there because people might come in and they go, "What is that?" It's a snipe sign. Snipe sign. That doesn't have any What I'm saying is, is that a common term that everybody I mean, it's a it's a name of a sign. It's a name of a type of a sign. two of us here that don't it might be a All right. I think I know four a big group. Is that a name of a type of sign? A snipe sign. It it is. Um I just want to go back to understanding the base that I am doing the work in. Okay. Like All right. So, am I merging the two or am I I am taking the existing? Well, I think we're gonna do some merging. I think we're going to do some merging because I think if you go

back to the beginning of what you've got here, you've got we've got to look and this is what I have to go back and take a look. Have we been redundant now? We've got if you go back to page 10, everybody, you've got C prohibited signs. Um, when you look at prohibited signs, do we want to add that to this or are they already in here? And that's what we have to go back and read because I think some of them already in here. You've already got no now that is in here. There there's some that are the exact same. So on M on page 11, it's the same as 13 in the regular town council uh draft or the ordinance. So you have some of the exact same things. No. Uh an L is the same as number 12. So it looks as though we're we're going to be merging is what it looks like to me. A lot of this stuff you might have added a couple more in here. For example, um do we have uh oh I know uh when it's on C2 prohibited signs and then you go to not allowed. We talked about 2B any sign or flag pole exceeding the height limit permitted in any district in which the sign is located. If that is in here, we probably want to um change that. Did that come out of the town code or do you remember where that came from? I think we added that but I don't remember. The basis of the document that you had in your packet today was always the town code. We've just modified it through a lot of permutations. Okay, everybody look at C2B. That's on page 10. Look at B. It says any sign or flag pole exceeding the

height limit permitted in any district in which the sign is located. Uh, does anybody want to keep that or move change it in any way C2B? Well, I guess it's some other place. Well, that's what I'm trying to figure out if it's in here. And seems like we could It's not above, isn't it? the peak of a roof or a wasn't that a phrase we used for months ago. Yeah, it's that language is still there. Uh so I frankly find that a very confusing sentence and I think we could eliminate that myself. Um because we already have on C one uh we have two C freestanding signs exceeding 20 ft um in height are prohibited. Do we want to put freestanding signs and flags? Uh we could we could include is flags we made. I think we Oh, you did add that. Okay. Did that. How does everybody like that? Freestanding signs and flags, flag poles exceeding 20 feet are prohibited. 20 feet is two stories. Um, now we of course we've got the one across the street that's larger, but um, and I don't think anybody else in town has one larger than I don't know if Rodri has one larger, but what about the Oh, American Legion. Legion American Legion might have one too. There's some resident residential areas that have them. I don't I haven't measured them so I don't know. Well, I think even in any residential you would don't want anything over 20 feet really. I mean

that would be my opinion. I don't know what is it in what's Richfield stations because we have three flag poles at the entrance. I don't know what the height is. I don't think they're over 20 feet though. Oh, the entrance down there is know that come. I think they're about 20 feet. They're about 20 feet. I can see if we can find their original permitting documents, but I it's going to take a bit because Yeah. I mean, it's it they were already permitted and already put up. So, right. Okay. So, let it's 8:00 and I want to just um figure out what we are doing now. So, what I like is I like taking some of the original and then um I guess your next question is what part of the stuff that we have in this packet do we want to include? Can we merge it somehow or how we how can we do that without being redundant or I can merge it. Let me ask a few questions to guide guide me in this. So, Definitions. Do you want to keep the def new definition section? Um uh see definitions. Let's look at those definitions quickly. It seems like definitions really are more of a question. What do you think? Because it would be the planner that has to communicate to the applicant. this is not you know this is this kind of sign or not. I would think you would want some definitions to help you in your job. What do you think? So, I think I can work with the large group of definitions or I can work with the original definition because I I wanted

to leave this original definition in and it's still in there because it basically captures any new type of sign that could h it could be created. It's let me see if I can find it. Interesting. because it just defines a sign as anything with writing on it. Uh, we're getting there. I mean, I think a lot of these definitions can I can go either way. A lot of the definitions like a government regulatory sign, we don't need that. We don't need handwritten sign. Holiday decorations. I think some of these are just given. So, I don't think we need a lot of them. Um, but there might be some that you as a planner might think you need in order to understand the sign ordinance when you're def, you know, talking to applicants. Does anybody else have any thoughts about that? What do y'all think? Is it I like having them at like at the front. I feel like as like a reader, but do we need them all? I don't think I mean if you take a couple out, I don't think it's really hurting anything. I mean, but I mean, I think it should be our planner's discretion myself. I think if if you see the type of sign inside the document, then I think we need to leave it in there. If it's not something that you think is pertinent, I think we need to uh make it as short and sweet as possible. And I think I like them in the front, too, just because then you got you have people who can read the defs before they get in there. I propose you look at the definitions decide which ones you feel are beneficial and if there's any in the definition any definition that you feel needs more clarity you write the clarity and then you send it to us and then we can just okay it do you think madam chair yep that's what I think and um so

exemptions that's the exemptions now there is the other big question is I like the exemptions up in front too and we we except they might they might be redundant but I I don't think that hurts to be redundant if you if people can see oh there's they don't have to go any further. Um let me see where are the exemptions at in here. I can't remember where we have them now. They're at the beginning. They're at the beginning. So, um, what are we exempting things from? Yeah, there we'll have to adjust the permit in second because we're exempting them from a permit. Oh, okay. You might want to include that exempt. You mean Well, wait a minute. Hold on. You mean de exemptions? Exemptions from permits. Well, that doesn't make any sense, though. You've got general regulations under exemptions. Well, that could be moved. That doesn't look right. Well, so um this the ordinance you're looking at now was meant to be so each was supposed to have under it general regulations, allowed without a permit, allowed with a permit, and not allowed. So, I kept that format. But under exemptions, it's really just all the stuff that is allowed without a permit. Um Oh, I see what the general regulations are things like, okay, you don't need a permit, but you still can't put it in the right of way. Or obstruct sight lines. Oh, I see. And you still have to make sure it doesn't fly away in a storm. Are we saying that we would move that some like place else like after definitions or something? Just like general requirements or something? Well, I

I think like there's just going to have to be re another reorganization, but the question is the content of the exemption section, that idea of having a section with exemptions. Do you want that incorporated into the ordinance? Exempted from exemptions from permitting. um say this is what needs permit and what doesn't so show up. One of the reasons I think that we did this was so in the existing thing anything over four square feet needs a permit but people aren't getting permits. So it's almost like it's so restrictive for the requirement of a permit that people just aren't doing it at all. Um and so the exemptions create it's less problems there less nonconforming. Not sure I understood that. So you want to have an exemptions section that's easier for you guys. They just look at things that are exempt from having to have a permit. Correct. Go here. Or is it more complicated? It's not necessarily more complicated. It's just do we do you want that was one of the big kind of things that you've wanted to happen with this ordinance. So I want to be clear that like we don't want exemptions or we do want exemptions for when I draft the revisions. What is easiest for you? I mean I can just incorporate that section in the existing

format of the ordinance as needed um based on our because I have the history of our conversations and like what pieces we added. So I can use that information to add the pieces we decided to add to the ordinance if that So exemptions as I'm looking at it really are um traffic signs, government signs, holidays, flags, directional signs, sandwich well we now know that sandwich signs are not part of that because now we have it in the other code this you have to have a permit for it. So that is no longer there. Okay. But real estate signs are openhouse signs are exempt. So I don't think it hurts to have the these outlined, you know, if traffic signs, government, uh, holiday flags, directional signs, real estate signs. Uh, I don't mind having a list like that. Okay. You know, I think it's a good idea to have that, you know, so that people go, "Wait a minute. Uh, you know, what what's with real?" Yeah. Exactly. So I think having ex but it has to say exemptions from needing a perimeter. Something that's a little more clear about that. Um, but the general regulations now if you look under uh on you know in our sign ordinance the current one under H it has general sign regulations and they have 1 through you know 14. Um, so these should be merged into that because it says all on D1D exemptions, all signs must be properly secured and weighted. Not a bad idea to put that into general regulations, but I don't think it's in here anywhere. It could be, but you guys

added that last time. So, okay. It wouldn't be a bad idea to add D under there in in general sign regulations and just include I don't know. Everybody can everybody quickly read H general sign regulations. Do we have enough time? Does everybody mind an extra five minutes here? If you look at general sign regulations, read from what page, please. Well, look, you're going to have to look up there because I'm telling you to read them from the old fine regulations. What are we looking? I just want to see if everybody's happy with what they say. I know that we've eliminated hot air balloons. We've we want the town road ordinance changed, but I want to see if everything else is going to be okay for everybody. I think the part like the number six I think the part about it being properly weighted etc. Number six talks about durable material, good condition and repair. That might be the Well, oh, you know what? Can we change the name durable to what was the term? Rigid. Rigid material because you know we have a a business I won't say which one that is using a canvas or a vinyl thing for their permanent sign and it really is it's faded. It looks tacky but that's not durable. When I think of permanent signage I think of something that is not bendable but it's rigid. That's what I think. So when you say durable material on number six shall be considered of durable material I think it should be something that's more solid like something rigid like made of wood PVC acrylic. Um it could be on the face of the building. It could be I just want to be more specific about durability. I was thinking about the sign that I had at my

office building in Maldorf and it was um you know a group sign. You had a slot and it was placed within I guess like a structure but the the sign itself was kind of bendy because that was the kind of sign it was but it was made of plastic I think but it was not it wasn't like like but it was rigid like a jibralter but well okay but when I say rigid it means that you can't fold it you can't bend it. Yeah. You bet it. Could it be? I I see I'm trying to think of what you're talking about that it could be. Um Well, it was probably It was a canvas. No, no, no. It was plastic. It was plastic. Why did it move? I hate Well, no. I'm just thinking that it and may maybe I'm misremembering what it was like. Okay. Well, let's all of that. Okay. Let's retract that and let's go back to what durable material means. I am not happy with um canvas as being a permanent sign because canvas to me frays very quickly. It fades very quickly. It harder to read and it's harder to read and I just don't think it looks we have canvas signs in Yes, we have one up the street actually been there since I've lived here and I it bothers me every time I see it. It's the same sign. Oh, I don't know. Should I identify which building? I won't identify. It's right across. It's right across from your house. It's right across from your house, actually. But um but anyway, I think there should be something more than durable. Does anybody have any opposition to changing the word durable or keeping durable and putting in comma rigid as another word, another term to describe it being solid?

the thickness basically. I guess I'm talking about the fact that it's not going to be flapping. It's not going to be it's not going to it's going to be um more permanent and more durable. I mean, if you're spend five years in a business or more, you're going to want something that's more than just canvas, in my opinion. if you're gonna look like a um a business or if you're gonna be a business, the readability. And it's the readability. Does anybody have a problem with adding anything to that or you just want to leave it durable? So, I'm looking up and it says top nine durable materials for outdoor signs. So, do you really want to list all nine durable materials? Well, um you want to do that? No, I don't because it's always changing depending on the on the chemist involved. But I I I just don't want something that looks temporary. And to me, canvas looks temporary. Plus, it's temporary sign. So this is like aluminum, bronze, steel, acrylic, vinyl, 3D plastic letters, wood, diebond, illuminite, right? Instead of having to describe all those, why can't we just put rigid? They're all rigid materials that you're describing. Um, so anyway, I guess I'm losing this fight because I don't hear any. No one's agreeing with me on this. So I guess we'll just go back. Rigid is just really not descriptive of what. Give me another term besides rigid. Let me look up thesis. She's gonna be on parliament too. Commissioner Brown, I knew he was going to say say what did he say? Somebody says, "What do you consider

durable?" Yeah. any leather. The only other thing that I'm um thinking is when you go with portable signs, I wanted to include things except you know you have um when they say all portable signs shall be limited as follows shall be limited as followable shall be limited shall all portable. Okay. So on number 14, if you go and you you go all through age and you go to number 14, it goes to portable signs. All portable signs shall be limited as follows. Do we want to include the feather flags, which I keep going back to and it should be in here, I'm sorry, because they're so easily used and they, you know, they can be so easily abused. I think there should be a D and I think we should put feather flags or whatever they're called and put no more than one per establishment or two or whatever it is you all want. But I think we need to put them in here specifically um as a temporary sign um and or not or do you want them as permanent signs which because you know they're all going to use them but there's no place in here that has them in here. So, what do we think I'm going to do about feather flags? Miss Kelly, what do you think? I can go either way. Oh, yours is so healthy. I can. Okay. Commissioner Chris, what do you think? Who's using feather flags?

Who's like is this is this more of a like a business application? Oh, this is definitely business application. Business. You know what I'm talking about with feathers, right? Is it the like the poles that you attach and they're long and and narrow? I got you. Yeah. And um does our square footage not take care of that problem as far as as far as limiting the number of uh It's a lot of square because they're very tall and I don't know I even know how you could even count the square footage on a feather flag, frankly, because they come they're tapered. They're like a very and they won't stop moving for you to measure them. That's right. Stop already. So, how do we want to do feather flags? Do we want to um let's just make let's just say something. Um let's put down number five. Feather flags shall not shall be removed when Commissioner Greenold towns that have pages on feather flags because they've been so abused in certain areas. I mean, you know, feather flag every five feet going all the way down the to the marina in worst case scenario oh two now we're getting corny and now we're getting goofy because it's late so what does everybody want to do nothing or something about feather flags feather flags and oh under B we've got pennants and banner so then we could put oh well that's just for 14 days because they aren't limited. Yeah. So, it'd be 30 days per year, which is a month, which uh and they really should be something temporary so that when they're put up, you notice it. You know, if they're up there all the time, you stop looking at it and it's just more clutter in the air. So, maybe that's a

good point. Just have them 30 days a year. What does it works for me? Works for me, too. What about you all? Actually, I'm loving it. Okay, we're going to add feather flags to that. Is there anything else we can add to this one? Feather flags. What else do we want to add? That can just take care of all of our portable temporary signs all in one right there. Um um I'm sure in there. What about inflatables? Do we want to do anything about inflatables? I know we have hot air balloons, but there's also but remember the inflatables are those kind of things that wiggle and wobble and you put you know, you know that's notable are I'd say more temporary, right? Like we see a lot of those out during Christmas time. There's a lot of you want to include that in the feather flag thing. Pennis, comma, banners, feather flags, uh, comma, inflatable, inflatables. Inflatables. And how about re revolving? No, we don't want any revolving or beacons, do we? We don't want any of those. Okay. So, pennants, banners, feather flags, and inflatables. Okay. So, is there anything else we want to put into temporary portable signage this? But, and this may have been elsewhere, but you know, when there's a human being swiveing an arrow sign or swiveing those signs those are I just Well, you know, human signs are another issue. Uh, do we want to eliminate them? Do we want to include that? I just thought that they were important because the person could move. Sorry.

So, okay. I think you So, the way you have it right now, the only the things that you list here are allowed. Everything else is not allowed. Correct. Banner human and human sign. Let's put humans. You want to allow humans? No, I say we allow them, but just 30 days per year. you would I'm fine with them turning into a scene 30 days a year if it's hey it's only 30 I mean it's only days I say yeah okay so fl inflatables and human signs because that is a recent phenomenon you didn't see that back in the day when this is written and actually this was you know the 2011 this one was added in 2023 so different parts okay so where are we at now um merging. We're going to merge. We're going to put in the exempt um definitions and then some of the definition most of the definitions that you think are going to be relevant. Curated definitions. Yeah, exactly. Yes. What about um um Oh, yeah. We got to get to the violations. We can't do that tonight. So, that'll have to be next week's uh next month's next week. God, next it's me. violations and enforcements we have to do and non-conforming signs. Those are the three things we have to do next time. But what else do we have to do next time? Let me incorporate the nonconforming and the violation and then if ever so then you'll get a new organization and then you can focus on the non-conforming and violations. We can also talk about whether the organization works. Yep. Now, we have by tomorrow. No, you can't. Sorry. That is how goofy we get at the end of the day. Yeah. Make

sure there's a whole separate category for violations on feather. I was writing down what you were saying. Yeah. Now, we were also, if you don't recall, I think we talked about we wanted a section of prohibited signs up front, too. Next to exempt, right? Is that No, you have prohibited signs now. Did you exempt? I think, didn't we want exempt and then proh? I don't know. Okay. We'll simplify for the customer so that they don't have to go any further than the That's what we thought. Two or three pages. Then then we should see you're prohibited and you're going to be on Okay, how does this all sound everybody? Anything else we want to talk about as far as the signs are concerned tonight? And otherwise, I'll give you all a chance to give your piece. Um, are we done with signage for tonight? Yes. Okay, let's go on to comments um by the commissioners. Uh, Commissioner RDK, anything to tell us? No. Commissioner Brown, anything to tell? No. One quick question. Did Yes, this is appropriate, but did we ever find out about that couple that wanted to buy that lot in Richfield Station? Do you remember outside of Richfield Station? They didn't give a name or anything for the owner. Yeah, the purchaser. There was no name of the purchaser. Did we ever find anything more about that? Franklin is looking around. You were asking me about the Oh, I'm sorry. I was turning them off because I thought they they they chose not to because they couldn't get access to the lot. Well, that's a problem, right? For sure. That was we required them to find access and they could not find access. Okay. Okay. Thank

you. And so next month we can probably start with finish up signage, go over it. Do we want to start um with the um or do we have time do you think to start it next month? How about let me see how long this takes to do and then if I can get started. Yeah, I was going to try and start both or finish this up for the next because we've got to do a public hearing probably um August or do you think that's not a good idea August for a public hearing because it's dark in the town council. People may not attend. I hate to do a public hearing when nobody's going to come. Maybe we should wait till September and delay this a little bit so that they can come. maybe set the public hearing hopefully in September and I'll reorganize this and then I'll let you know whether I can have coastal resiliency together as well um in like two weeks. Is that good? Perfect. Okay, it's great. Okay, good. Okay. All right. Well, thank you everybody. I need a motion to adjurnn. Sure. I'll do it while we're on time, please. All right. And is there any discussion or any, you know? Okay. Very good. Favor. Okay. It's the topic alone that drives you to Bob. Is there a to say what's funny is that around the world to me sometimes you have to do that the conversation to degrade well we are getting giddy after There