Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Maximum V 32 square feet is is not unreasonable. We didn't record it. We forgot to record it. So, we made no decisions. So, we can fill in whatever. I mean, just Yeah. Um we can talk about it again. Uh probably will anyway.

I I I just Yeah. The main thing I look at this is I'd like to know what goes on in other districts besides the village. You know, it says number one signs in a village and industrial districts, but then it doesn't. That so is that implied and then number two is number two's talking about village and industrial districts. I' kind of like to get that straightened out. And by the way, remember I think we once went through St. Johnsbury. St. Johnsbury has like five or so pages of signed bylaw. We have half a page or threequarters of a page. I think it may be worth looking at what they have again before we move forward on this, but this is where we are right now. Anyway,

let's copy and paste. Yep. It's fun to read some of these other

bylaws. Home occupations. One of the thing I want to specify and I think I have somewhere is that it's never clear who gives. You can't really it says no provision shall infringe upon the right. Uh we still require a permit but you can't you can only you know spec you can only say um it has to be smaller than 50% of the house. It has to be like an accessory unit essentially. Uh you can control parking and things but you can't really tell them they can't do it. That's what this amounts to. But I would like it specified that the zoning administrator can handle this as well as uh regular single uh u permit applications for single and family dwellings and a single simple subdivision. I'd like this added that the I'd like it specified because I I always have but I you know it's not exactly said that I could and it doesn't make sense to send something like home occupations to the DRB in most cases. But

I've always found home occupation rules um really ironic because it says basically you have to be as if nobody can tell that you're there. And if nobody can tell that I'm here, how do you really know? Well, that's not that doesn't that's not in our that's nothing like our bylaw. We don't care about that. They can put a sign out for all we care. It's just it can't, you know, it has to be a home occupation, not a business run from a separate dwelling 200 ft away. Again,

so it Okay, so what if you're not using a dwelling, but you just got it out there like you're, you know, it's not a dwelling, but you're selling stuff outside. I'm sorry I I don't Can you make a little bit clear you have a Well, okay. Say somebody wants to vacant building. No, there is no building and what a yard sale.

Well, no, not necessarily a yard sale. Say somebody wants to sell All right, let's go with cars. You're not You don't have a dwelling, but you're just selling cars. That's a bad example. Okay. What about boats? There you go. From their home. Yes. Out on the front lawn. Right. There's no dwelling. From from a residential desed building in which they do not live.

Docks. If they do that, if they have boat turnover and they're in the business of selling boats on their property, that's a use. Zoning is land use control. So, I mean, their permit is for a house, but is it a if and what we're talking about, I guess, is is it a would it be a home occupation? No. Let's Can we deal with that when it comes up? I don't want Okay. Let's deal with it when it comes out. Opening up a can of worms here that I don't want to go with.

Yeah. It, you know, it would be a judgment call, I suppose. Is he, you know, do the neighbors complain? Is it in a residential area? Uh, is there a lot of traffic pulling up and pulling over? Does he have people outside? Uh, you know, it's it would be a judgment call. You'd have to it could there could be two different instances of that happening depending on other things going on. How much of the house does he use for that business? He has to keep records somewhere. So So if I put four tractors on the side of the road there by my place for sale and I can it's okay to do that. And all you got is a little filing cabinet in your in your house. Yeah.

Go right it go right ahead. But if you keep doing it for too long, somebody may complain. Well, I mean, if you get the permit, I'll put three away and leave one out. If you if you get the permit,

I think let look at it this way. Look at it this way. Um, would you normally when you would be selling boats, you would have them maybe in a showroom or a tractor you would have in a showroom. They might be outside, but if they're outside, uh, you know, and you're selling them as a business, I think you're going to I I I think it would be require a zoning permit to tell you the truth. If that's your regular business and you're selling four tractors outside, turning over four tractors, it's like you have a lot that's there

and it's bigger. It's like it's like the equivalent of having I would measure the space that those tractors took up. And if it's more than 50% of the household floor plan, then it's a business. That's I think how I might deal with that one. So So we're we're fine until somebody actually reads this thing and tries to find the loophole and go. That's right. That's that's always the case. That's why we have Billy Hawkins on on the planning commission. That's his special I I'll put a carboner for tractors. We're we're coming for you. Long time ago, Joel. We're coming for you. Underground, right? Then it's not a structure,

you know. Hey, listen. This is why the job is interesting. You have how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? I'm telling you, it's just like that. It's just like that. The zoning

the zoning of the pin. the the state zoning bylaw state zoning law says the zoning administrator has to literally apply the bylaws. Well, that's that's rich really. I mean, it's like even if you apply them literally, you still have to use these kinds of judgments all the time. Is it a structure or isn't it the children's playyard? you know, a set of wash lines and you know, it's like people flagpole people can get dog Burlington Burlington controls dogous. You're kidding. Does anybody have a dog house? Do they have to be final?

People don't get along well together. That's why we have zoning. Uh my my my HOA, we don't allow dogghouses at all. Damn. Dogs. You guys don't like dogs. So, where does your dog sleep? They have to stay in the house. They don't have dogs. Oh, we have lots of dogs, but they all have to be in their houses. Yeah. And I bet And I bet they need to walk around if they walk their dogs, they need to have a little plastic sleeve with them, too. They do. Yeah. Poop permit. That's the only thing a dog's good for is have it in the house anyway. God. Okay.

So, anyway, um what is this? This show. Oh, this is a def This is a definition I added of Scroll up my Yeah, family child care homes. There was a definition later in the bylaw, but I thought the definition really ought to be included here. So I put it in this section as well because it was more of description of what we're talking about. So I just it may be repeated but I thought it was worthy to put in here.

Uh xed out. Go up a little bit. Xed out. Uh keep going there. Right there. Um there now stop except that no such home shall be so considered if it is located within 1,000 ft of another existed or permitted such home. I think I had to cross that out because of the new law. So sorry, we're not gotten to the fun stuff yet. Oh, our favorite travel trailers. Here we go. No god,

we already went all through all these. The big change, only one travel trailer per property, except it's provided in four and six, which are about trailer parks and things. Yeah, my lot topography does not allow any place that I could park a travel trailer and then be compliant with this. Haha. is the travel trailer the um snowmobile trailers which is what what do you mean by travel like a box in it's defined later in the bylaw or a camper and if you not a travel trailer if you have a tiny travel trailer is it more than 100 square feet

I don't know well that I mean if it's that it's just like a shed and that other you know nobody's nobody's going to come around looking for you Well, as long as it's still on its tires, it's considered a vehicle under our rules. But I have seen other places. There's nothing in our rules about things on wheels. Things on wheels are treated the same as things without wheels. We don't have any clause in here about wheels.

There's no point in it. Uh because um why should we care? We for one thing we want the anything that's added to a property to be added to the grand list. We want to get the value out of it. So what does it matter exactly where they put it on their property exactly where they put it as long as they meet the setbacks. So people I don't if somebody wants to put a house on wheels welcome to it. They can move it from one place all over their lot. They're still going to get they still needed a permit to originally to build it and they're still going to get charged for it on the tax bill. you know, wield it around however you want. I don't care. That's that's just my my sense of how things should work.

And um under under the there there's state regulations on that for what gets added to the grand list and what doesn't. And because I know I was looking at them and you know, basically if it looks like it looks like something you're living in, it it gets added to the grand list. If it's you know, if it's connected to utilities or anything like that, it's considered part of the property. It's a huge It's a huge There's been more so many court cases. I mean, we the town went to court over travel trailers at Barnes Campground, you know, because the law says if they're there for more than 180 days, but there's some other clauses about whether they're hooked up and stuff like that. It's it's not an easy issue, but this, I think, pretty much addresses what we I haven't messed with this for a while, so I think this is what we already had approved. I haven't made any changes that I remember.

Um, isn't there one on Mountain Street? One. What? A permanent travel trailer? There may be. Yeah, at the top there's one. Yeah. No, it's uh it's further down.

There might be. You can't in in the ver in Vermont, you can't treat a a trailer, a mobile home any different than you can a dwelling. You you can't distinguish between them. We do have one. It was There was one That's right. There was one on the corner of Current Avenue. That was the one that we actually had to send. Remember, Jean Billy, what was the woman who was uh she had we had actually send in the people to clean the house out. thought it was so incredible. On Cerwin. Who? On Cerwin. On Mountain. What street you talking about?

On on Mountain Street. There was a woman and her daughter who lived in that facility there. We don't need to go into it. We're in public session. So anyway, the town Okay. There is a trailer there that we had Okay. Yep. I know what you're talking about now. Yes. It rang a bell. Y Yeah. Yep. M yeah right AC there is a travel trailer that's set up as a dwelling up on right AC almost across the street from Current Avenue now. Yes, there is. It's been there for a few years, hasn't it? Oh yeah, quite a few years.

Yeah, it's not burn down or get torn down or something like that.

Yeah, used to be a Gilman housing there. Yeah. I mean, one of the problems with this is uh that I ran into though is a property on Curran Avenue where the owner uses two small travel trailers as storage sheds and um it's they're already existing and it was hard to you know it's like well do we really if he's allowed to have a storage shed. Does do we do we say what it has to be made of because he had just used so but it was you know it's one of those judgment calls. So right now I think that's I think that's still being allowed but it's probably grandfathered at this point. But

they should be taxed though.

Oh I'm I'm sure they're Well, I'm pretty sure they're taxed. I haven't looked at the tax bill. Right. Uh they added that note um at the end. It doesn't say if there has to be a regular home on the property for a visitor to park his or her trailer because number seven says visiting or occupied RVs are allowed on owner's property up to two weeks but no no gray water may be discharged to the wershed. It doesn't. Somebody could do that on somebody's property that didn't have a house on. And I don't I'm not sure we wanted to be okay with that. I'm not sure why we wouldn't be okay with that. But I think the implication of a lot of these is like somebody comes up to visit somebody who lives here on on the property and but it may not need to be addressed at all. It may be a fine this way as well. I don't have a problem with it. I just thought I'd point it out. Um, in our vehicles, this is where we have the the clause that says, "And other household debris shall not be stored on any property unless shielded from you uh from public highways." Um this is one of those that okay

we have we declared we we had fishing shandies but then by popular demand fishing shandies got excluded. We don't you know there's just if the there's a lot of fishing shandies that aren't very attractive and you know we didn't want to start going around telling them your fishing shanty has to be nicer. But this is there are properties in town I can tell you right now that this would apply to that just don't get addressed. It's one of those things. Do you want to open that that can of worm in some cases? But if it gets bad, this is this is the section that I think um could be used um well no I'm sorry. It was the section on dilapidated houses that I thought could be used on uh the house coming into town on Derby Street that's been there for like bony for all these years half finished. Um and this is the the clause that they you know came up to play with Brett Hedges. No more than one unregistered yet operable vehicle shall be parked in any yard or on any property for more than 30 days. Um, we don't know. Uh, he apparently went and registered a bunch. Um, we don't know if they're operable or not. We don't really know what those cars are. And without knowing what those cars are, I think we're hardressed to push any at this point until we know more information about what those cars are. And, you know, it's hard to it's hard to make a judgment. I think that if we press the point, um, we could make him show us what they are. And we could also pursue this in other ways, but that's not a topic for tonight's meeting, I guess. Um, but, uh, yeah, I mean, he said he was

going to take them all off and he hasn't, so I don't know what the deal is there. Yeah, it's definitely something we got to look into again.

Yeah, I I just would like to be sure that we have a solid case. And what I've seen so far, I don't feel really comfortable saying that we have a clear zoning violation. So, um, but yeah, we'll look at it some more for sure. I've talked to Nick about it already. Uh, outdoor furnaces, we have I have updated this whole section. Um, they do need a permit. And if you scroll down, you'll see a whole new section added, this is directly from the state law at this point. Good to move on.

Yeah, I think I agree that a fire department inspection should be required there. Okay. What are we up to? 30. Page 30. Yep. Is this Is this about halfway through? Uh yeah,

I think we've gone I Let's keep on moving. I think we might be able to, you know, wrap up some of this. I think a lot of the stuff is um Oh, here's why I added the the authorization for the ZA to handle applications for home occupations generally and applications for change of use in the village district if there is little or no impact and upon DRB chair agreement. This is the minor things can happen sometimes and really doesn't make any sense to bring to arrange a meeting for the whole DRB. It's a simple change sometimes that you know would be approved. No chance of there being anything and if the ZR DRB chairs agree then the the ZA should be allowed to do it. This is not unusual clause to put see other towns have the same kind of clause.

Ah yes. Did we already have this before? Was this a Yes. It's convenient. Um I think the size of a small accessory structure should be dependent on the zoning where it's located. In what way? Uh it should scale a little bit. 100 square feet is big on a halfacre lot in town, but it's al but it's very small on a 5 acre lot outside of town.

Yeah, but it's

well they will the the listers will value it anyway. It's not this kind of reflects how the listers deal with things. the listers will put a value on a structure if it's bigger than 100 square feet. Regardless of whether zoning does or not, but I don't know. I think once you get bigger than 100 square feet, in my own opinion, I don't care where it is, I think it should be subject to review because who knows what property might be built next to that some other time and all of a sudden there's more neighbors and now you have this big old thing that never had a permit. Change land use changes. Oh, here's

there you go. That one that zoning permit for the log cabin.

Yeah. Um I you know I looked at a couple other zoning bylaws. It's interesting. Everybody had the same way we had it that they has to be substantially commenced. I did not see one that had I didn't look at a lot to tell you the truth, but I didn't see the ones I looked at. It was the same thing. They didn't say it had to be completed. We don't have a definition of substantially completed. When we do big projects and there there's architectural rules and contracts with a contractor, substantial completion is a definition that applies the the contractor gets to have his retainage any amount retained as a bond to pay back to him when the project is substantially complete. And that's not something that I would know how to define is my only problem with this.

Oh, but we're not party to that agreement. No, but if somebody let's say I I don't know whether what I recommend from Carl Draga incident some years ago across the border in New Hampshire was that the guy who eventually shot state troopers and had a big shootout in Vermont. What set him off was that the zoners came to his house and said they were looking tired of looking at the tar paper and said you have to complete your house. So with that in mind it's like was was that worth it? Um but it it does what is substantial completion is something that we would have to talk about what that means because different people

two years is two years enough time to allow for I mean because I'm thinking wastewater treatment plant we would we would have to go back and get a new permit for this at this point because we got the zoning permit for that more than two years and it's you know substantial completion by the contractor is not until the end or sometime in 27. Even though we expect most of the construction done next year, they don't there there's a one-year period after that before it's considered substantially completed. I believe

I think there should be some other way to deal with with the the I agree with Mike that you have to extend it if you're going to do this because a lot of people up here start their homes and, you know, take their time at finishing. I don't know who that might be, but Yeah. Well, can I can I say something, Joel? Sure. Some some towns that I've run across,

substantial completion to them is a roof, outside walls, all the windows are in, and all the doors are in. So that way their kids and other people just can't walk around in that place and not get hurt because it's still being constructed inside. So I think substantial completion is the shell of the house should be done in a certain allotted time. What about what about what about siding? No, just enclosed. Just completely enclosed. So you could have an eyes sore but completely enclosed.

Yeah. Well, well, I mean, plywood, plywood, you you want to look at taek taipar for two years, three years. Well, it's no worse than looking at that building that's been for 12 years or whatever that still doesn't have the sides on it. Yeah. No, I'm just playing devil's advocate. I

Well, that's what I'm saying. But either way, at least it's enclosed. I don't know of any place in either Maine, New Hampshire, or Vermont, unless it's a city that has stricter laws enforced. But rural areas, you're you're you're going to have a hard time telling the people they have to put their sighting on.

They could have black paper on there for from here to eternity. And I've seen that happen in many, many communities that stayed like that because they think that they're saving money on taxes. Yeah. No. No. Yeah. Yeah. I think this this is a difficult thing here. I you know I kind of like the commence but there is nothing to nothing to talk about the problem we have on Derby Street and um that Derby Street by your definition would not be substantially completed.

That is correct. I say 50% is is st substantially completed. What you've what what what is I can't I can't as a contractor wire a home or a business or anything until the roof is on until all the windows and doors are in place so that nothing can get wet. And that's that's how they that that's how that's handled. We're going to have to add a definition for that later on. I'm pretty sure just to yeah, you know, have some sense of guidance. So 50% completion or whatever. Do you want

I like I I like what you said before. Roof on, walls in, windows it, doors on. I think that's a good completely enclosed. Yeah. Does reapplication here mean getting approved again and paying fees again? Yes. Yes. I think you should do the two-year period a little longer like you were talking about if that's what you're you know are you going to change that or are you going to keep that or or offer a free free one-year extension you know for cause like if you can show yeah my contractor died while he was building the house and it put my whole thing behind and it's not my fault. I like that. Well that that sounds reasonable for sure.

Yeah. I mean co co is what really dragged this guy out. Yeah, because he couldn't he couldn't enter the United States to work on it. Yeah, but but he's had 20. That was uh that's been what how many years now it's been done? And how many years before that did he start it, right? Yeah. Been four or five years since 2018 he started it. I I don't know. My my grandson was I mean he's only eight now and he's like when is that guy ever going to finish that co was what two years we we dealt with CO for two years maybe even three I think maybe maybe close to three yeah

so and if he started that eight years ago uh then he's he's well beyond when we get down to definitions we'll talk about that a little more come on scroll on Yeah. Yep.

Holy crap.

We didn't make many changes near the end. This just gets tired of looking at it. It's fine. Move on. Oh, no. We went we went through it. We went through it. You just breezed by a certificate. Okay. Here we here we get to here we get to some definitions. Definition. Yeah. Here's burned, abandoned, or dilapidated structures. Any building or structure that is unstable, collapsing, dangerous, or if residential in nature, uninhabitable, including the debris associated with that with such structures. If that doesn't apply to the house on Derby Street, I don't know what does. Yeah. Um,

oh, that's that's the definition right there. We just take a picture, post it, paste it in here. Um, unsanitary.

What are you on? Um, are you on like the building area? Building bed and breakfast. Is that where we're at? Oh, the burn, abandoned, and dilap. Okay. Right. It can be unsanitary all at once inside. We can't do nothing about that. Can I just ask something, Joel, about the bed and breakfast? Yeah, just hold on to that thought though. So, I wanted to look at this also for the house coming into town, the one we were talking about a minute ago that the guy is not finishing. Yeah. Any building or structure that is unstable? No, it's stable. Collapsing? No. Dangerous. Or residential nature. Uninhabitable. Correct. It's kind of uninhabitable. Yeah.

I don't know. I think when I talked to him years ago uh before COVID, he responded. Uh I I brought up I used this exact clause. I thought it was a stretch, but he responded and I think he'd respond again. We just have to get around to it. We need to pressure this guy though. That's gone on way too long. Crazy. I wanted to get back to that bed and breakfast. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Right. Bed and breakfast. So what's the difference between a bed and breakfast and a VBO Airbnb any of the other things marketplace that advertise that you know we have nothing in our bio

would this would this fit an Airbnb is an Airbnb a building that serves as a dwelling unit which has the capacity to pro has the capacity to provide overnight accommodations and a morning meal to well it doesn't have they They don't have breakfast. They don't have a They don't do breakfast on their own. It It doesn't Oh, this says it has to have the capacity. This would define a bed and breakfast as having the capacity to do that and morning meal.

Do the bed and breakfastes have to have a permit to operate that like that cozy in on um Dale Avenue? If somebody wants to start a bed and breakfast, it could be a home occupation, you know. I It depends on how big. I think is it is it regulated by the state though? Are bed and breakfast regulated like motel and hotels? I think if they're serving food, they might need to and if they're renting there's they're subject to the uh room rooms and

to the health officer, right? Rooms and meals. Well, and they would fall underneath all the safety guidelines, you know, smoke detectors, carbon monoxide detectors. I know I know that's that's always the issue with Airbnb on if they're on VBO or Airbnb or whatever. I think they would have to have all that anyways, right? I don't know. I don't think so. Well, the fire the you know the smoke detector smoke detector that's required by the state. I have other So that's what I'm saying. If it's an Airbnb or VBO, they must if you put your house up, they they must require you to do that because you are insured through them if you if you rent through them.

Well, your insurance company for sure want to know. But put it this way. I mean, if we're talking about whether it needs a permit or not is what we're talking about with zoning. So my answer is if somebody comes in and says I'm putting up I have I have this building out here that I'm want to rent for you know transient people to come through if it fits this definition here then it's going to well you know it's then it's a bed and breakfast but I I don't know why we have this def I guess we must have allowed must have used this as a permitted use or a conditional use somewhere. in one of our prior districts. I guess that's why we have it in here as a definition. Listed in one of them as a conditional use,

right? But I don't it predates Airbnb and VBO and all of those and those didn't exist when Right. But if somebody if somebody came in and said, I want to open a Airbnb, I'd look at this and say, you know, well, that it's by what we call those are bed and breakfast and treat it that way. I mean, there really doesn't seem to be a lot of difference. It depends on I mean we might want to work on this a little more and define things a little more. We could uh I Yeah, I think you should because it just it's a bed and breakfast to me is you're in a house, right?

And you're you're like you have a common space, you watch TV with everybody else. But if it's an Airbnb, people live there. The people you do live there, but if you an um Airbnb, you're you're talking a house, right? So, not necessarily though. I mean, right now, that's the majority of what we get in town, but it doesn't have to be. I mean, there's like a lot of them when I look online for places to rent, there's a lot of places where they just rent out a h a room of a house as an Airbnb. Well, exactly. But whatever. I mean, so I think that we should add to this bed and breakfast. We need to add more to it.

I agree. Historically, a bed and breakfast was what you would now call a hosted Airbnb, and the host would make you breakfast. That's right. That's right. I go for that. Yep. And but but that I also agree that that's in that in the house. Like Jean said, this specifies a dwelling unit. A building serving as a dwelling unit. So by this definition, an Airb Airbnb would just guess they just be home occupations for the most part, right?

But they they would need a permit. And if it were something like that, it could be that that kind of a home occupation the zoning administrator might want to send to the DRB depending on the impact. Joel, I have all the paperwork when Burke did their Airbnbs right down to the fire department, you know, like what they had to do, everything. I mean, I could show that to people just so we could get an idea of what they did that Well, let's put this on the agenda for next meeting and bring up and in the meantime, we'll get Burke and be able to put their thing up on the screen. Yeah, I have it. I'm sure it's all I'm sure it's all online. We can just copy it and put it up on the screen.

But yeah, let's take a look at it. But if whoever makes the agenda, Katie, put that on there. We'll do. Whoever makes the agenda needs to fix the Zoom link. Oh, yeah. That was true. That's true. I had to go in another way. Ozone, you need to get out of bed. I can't. Are you feeling any better? Um, I feel fine as long as I don't stand up. What's going on? DBTs. DBTs. DVT. DVT. What's DVT? Um, it's thrombosis.

Yes, that's the one. That what? What is it? It's where That's where blood clots form in your veins. Oh, shoot. And if you're if you're not if you're lucky, they're small or you figure it out in time and they put you on drugs. If you're not lucky, a piece breaks off and cl and you die or your brain. Oh, okay. Yeah. So, so you taking something for that? Oh, yeah. Are you going to be able to go to work on Thursday? What's Oh, no. I missed all last weekend. Did you? Yeah. All right.

We have really good staff, though. So, good. All right. Just, you know, as a business owner, I'm concerned for your business. Well, then why don't you visit? Well, I was going to, but then you were closed and I just This is I just moved this Thursday was keppy. It'll happen eventually, I'm sure. Because, you know, like like I was famously told when I got into this, there's only so many places.

Mhm. We already did this to in another section. I drawn it. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, but those aren't those aren't really a dispute. That's straight up from the state, it looks like. Right. Those are just just definitions from the state.

Oh, setbacks.

Setback. So I this this is the perennial problem how to measure setbacks. So um this is my latest attempt shall be measured from the edge of the road which is defined as and then I took this from the state uh state transportation department somewhere which shall be defined as the extreme right-hand limit of any improved area within the right away of the highway. And then I added in cases where that limit is illdefined or otherwise hard to determine, the ZA shall consult with the planning commission to determine the extreme right-hand limit for setback purposes. The PC or the ZA shall not be arbitrary in making this decision.

Wow. But anyway, it's measuring setbacks

right away from the edge of the rightway since the edge of the rightway is a problem. since the edge of the rightway can extend well into people's front yards. And when people think they're designing a building being set back from the road, they don't take that into consideration. And this has come up at Marilyn Maxwell's house. She wanted to build stuff. Well, she couldn't meet the setback. You and I went, "What really?" Well, that because it was measured from the right away. And that's and then on Bay Lane, there's some properties on Bay Lane that are so narrow that they don't the only un un the only part of their lawn that's not in our right away is a small triangle. Um and it doesn't seem right to deprive people wouldn't understand in my mind, you know, and why would we, you know, we want it set back from the road. We just it's a visual thing and somewhat of a functional thing as well for you know fire in case of fire and emergency vehicles but um it's hard to determine where to measure from and and from the edge the highway right away is not good. That's what got Beth. That's where Richard Foron is an issue for Beth. But you know I never measured from the rightway. I measured from if the right of the if the edge of the road was pretty clear, I measured from the edge of the road. I I thought that was the right thing to do. That's hard to do in some areas where there's just dirt roads and they meander a little bit maybe and it's not clear. So I um this is what I settled on using the the stage language measured from the extreme right-hand limit of any improved area within the right of way of the highway

but that could change. Well yeah highways can change but that's not something that normally happens. it it's unlikely I grant but and if it changes it's not going to it's not going to change the building that was permitted when it was one way if it changes that'll be grandfathered

but uh yeah I mean and that's in some cases like how do you treat houses on Davis Lane and Paul Bunan Road town highways and sometimes they're not well-kept highways Um so um you have to make somebody ask for a permit it still has to meet a setback but where do you start from? So it's there there's arbitrariness built into it and somebody has to make a judgment and you know this this just gives the zoning administrator a little bit more ammunition to say this is a good spot that will hold up in court if necessary.

Sorry. Go ahead. Why not from the property line? Every code I've ever seen has setbacks from the property line, not from a road that may or may not exist. Where's the property line? I don't know. Surveyor surveyor comes out and sets fence. Now we have then you have to require a permit has to come with a survey because it's not marked on the not not marked on the ground. Do you really want to risk building your house on the neighbor's lot? I've seen it happen.

Oh, yeah. No, definitely people do it, but we do not require a survey and there's no line on the ground unless there's a survey. So, I mean, I think and besides that, the town, there's this phrase in Vermont that everybody loves called throwing up a road. When you throw up a road, you basically return the road to the property owner underneath. A lot of times towns just have a right of way across somebody's property. They don't own the land underneath. Some cases the town owns the the land underneath. But if the town, you know, gets rid of the road, they don't want the property anymore. And if it's just have a rightway, then it returns to the So where was the property line? Huh? Well, there was a big case that they had they had in Vermont, wasn't there? When this guy said that uh for 150 years, the 100 years ago, no, excuse me, 150 years ago, the town had a road.

And then, oh yeah, 100 years later, the town never took care of it. So then this the the state of Vermont passed a law where the towns could reclaim that land and reclaim the old roads. You you know what I'm talking about, Joel. Oh yeah, I do. No, we that was a there was some big big big cases on that. We we got actually a grant for $5,000 out of that whole thing uh to go back and look at all the records of how we acquired all our roads because towns were given a specified period of time to either claim it or it's gone. Yeah.

And um yeah, I mean that that happened because somebody built the house and they didn't do a title search adequate. And that's when we found out too, you know, title searches only go back 40 years. And you're talking they were in that case where somebody built a house. They called it ancient roads. Yep. Ancient roads. Big over that. The guy built a house and he didn't do didn't do all the work. He did as much work as anybody else would, but he didn't he didn't do as much as he should have because hey, turns out there was a public right away where he built his house. And I think that I think he lost the case as I recall. Yeah, he did. Wow.

Public right away is the public right away 150 years ago. And it wasn't a road for the past hundred. You guys got you guys got why we keep records. Yep. Anyway, is there anything more? I think that was pretty much down to the end of it, wasn't it? The setback thing is what I really wanted people to look at because that's that's always a problem. Thank you. We got a couple of items next meeting that we'll talk about. Yes. And then uh we should be able to go to print.

Well, at least send sections to an attorney. I want There's still some things. Yeah. I I really don't care that much about the whole thing and spending the money because it's the same basic zoning bylaw that we've had for years and if we violate if we do something wrong and somebody takes us to court and we were wrong we'll admit it you know so but we will send some sections to the attorney for review. Okay. All right. All right. So any other discussion on this? We'll move on to the uh Well, there's really I don't think there's any other business. Does anybody have that? I know. We're good. Yep.

Do I have a motion to adjurnn? I'll make a motion to adjurnn. Second. All in favor? I I thank you. Meeting is adjourned.