Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Go for it.

There you go.

Okay. So I'm calling the meeting to order. Is anything for update agenda? No. Public comment. Jared, are you happy then? No. Chris?

No.

Oh, just observing. Okay. So Allison, we can start with the town plan. Okay. Okay.

So I have been working on the draft. And what I would like to do is to start uploading it into a shared folder. It'll probably, when I upload it, it will probably turn to Google Docs, which I think you can all use. Yes?

I use Chrome again.

Google Docs, D-O-C-F?

Yeah.

I'm not sure.

Well, if it doesn't work, I can also email directly to individuals. But what I'd like to do is upload a complete outline and then upload chapter drafts separately. Okay. so that like next time we could talk about the introduction and the housing element for example but at the same time you would be able to look at the outline and see where where chapters fit in and where subject matters go does that make sense yeah I like that Okay. So I've been working on the introduction. I just want to go over the wordsmithing one more time before I release it tomorrow. But I also, in articulating the vision for Brighton, I also highlighted how, can I share my screen?

I can make it since you can. Give me one second.

Well, maybe. I'll figure out how to do that. Maybe I have to go over here. Hold on.

Okay.

Oh, there we go.

Okay.

I have two different screens going. I have one there and one here. So I have to figure out which one will let you do that.

Okay, so for example, I wanted to highlight how when people were asked to rank their vision as most important for the village, how year-round residents and non-residents might differ in priorities. And I wanted to find a way to reconcile that into a single vision. So I didn't want to make it like locals versus the outsiders. rather articulated that a vibrant community, like everybody supports a vibrant downtown, everybody supports the lake as its center, but a livable community is also an affordable one. And it is marked by a strong sense of community. It's like we're neighbor, like it's a real place. It's not a theme. So I started focusing on, The long range goal would be organized along maintaining what you value, such as maintaining the environmental integrity. of your rural community. Enhancing, which would entail improving and expanding on recreation opportunities. Remember, we had the conversation about expanding on ATV trails. following through on some of the recommendations in the Island Pond Revitalization Plan. And then finally, the transformative change is investing in the robust infrastructure that will support future development. in the village center. So that's the truly transformational change. It's also some of the highest dollar investments. And by maintaining that village center designation, making it permanent, it helps you to attract grant funds that can minimize taxpayer expense. It can also help encourage more users on the infrastructure, which lowers the cost for everyone. So that's the vision. But this also includes a history of all of your planning initiatives. in the community, remember we talked about that one, there's still a couple of pieces that I'm gonna need some blanks filled in. And if we can't find them, that's fine. It doesn't have to be an exhaustive history. But anyhow, that's the first piece that's going to tie it all together. And so then the next piece that I would, the next two pieces that I would upload would be land use, which we talked about at length, as well as housing, followed by flood resilience. So just didn't want you to think that because the deadline has been extended to the end of next year that I'm not, you know, I haven't gone away. You mean we don't have that?

I'm sorry? We don't have to have it? It's been extended, that town plan?

Yeah. It doesn't expire technically until the end of 2027. Oh, that's a better... So it removes that sense of urgency, but it doesn't change the fact that the original scope of work that we wrote in the municipal planning grant wanted to try to pull all of your planning initiatives into a central document that really articulates everything that you've worked on in the past decade or so. That's what we're still trying to do here. So are there any questions?

I like your graph. I like how you did that. Pardon? I said I like your idea on the graph there. I think that's a nice way to put it in there.

Okay. Well, that's just one page. But I will start. I'm going to do a final proofing, and in the morning I'll just release this draft and And then maybe we could start talking about it in meetings and we'll just upload a draft, you know, like every week or so. And then we will keep adding to it until we have a plan.

Sounds good.

Okay.

Any other discussion?

All those different plans. Is there any prioritization one over the next one?

Like we have a list of- It feels like to me, the Island Pond Revitalization Plan has driven a lot of the investment to date because it does talk about investment in infrastructure and water and wastewater upgrades. It also talks about creating housing opportunities and that also dovetails with the housing targets that we have to talk about still. And even though those housing targets might be way more ambitious than anything that we can envision, that revitalization plan does talk about making your downtown vibrant. by creating more housing opportunities. And then finally, we had also talked about making the infrastructure more sustainable by adding more users. So, and again, all of those seem to be connected to first the community visit, which led to the revitalization plan, which led to the conceptual realignment, and now the plans for Cross Street, the plans for the wastewater. I mean, it all seems to be falling into place. But it also doesn't feel like, even though we have like a cursory history of, of other investments, it doesn't go against those other investments. I mean, you had like the walking path and the pavilion, they were all still lake centered. You had upgrades to the like revitalization of the train station. You're still looking at investing on the third floor of the upper block, you know? So again, They're all downtown focused too. There is a significant downtown focus to all of them. They're also tied to your earning downtown designation back in the early aughts.

The state I heard, I mean, I got an email on it with the lot of housing that Essex County is getting help with. Now, what is that all about? I mean, it's just like, say somebody like for you, for instance, or anybody, how is that going to help these guys for housing? as far as they have apartments to rent and just how is that gonna help any of these people that have apartments?

First of all, there are incentive programs that exist for them, like the Vermont Housing Improvement Program is still out there. I know that we've talked a little bit about the Community Housing Investment Program, but that's a great way to also invest in housing projects. without, you can grow the tax base, but it's not making taxpayers pay for those infrastructure improvements. So those are just two examples. The other thing is that I think it makes sense just to look at The zoning bylaws, I know that you're already working on revisions to your zoning bylaws, but you just want to make sure that they don't stand in the way of some of the infill development opportunities that we identified in that drive-through that we did.

There's multiple programs that they have available for the owners. One program is... revitalizing of existing apartments. It'll give you X funds depending on the size of the apartment to update the apartment, put new flooring in, upgrade the electrical, add additional nice clean housing for people in the community. Other programs that they have on top of that is any revitalization that a owner does on an existing building. So say you put a whole new electrical power meters to come in. They will give you up to a 50% value of that project and a tax rebate back to them. So they have multiple incentives for people like me to make investments in the building and then get some of their funding back, cover those investments. And then on top of that, they also have, you know, and there's all stipulations for the different grants of how they're being repaid, what type of tenants you have to put in, how you have to offer them. And then on top of that, there's a whole list of other cladding, exterior cladding. If you want to do residing, there's a percentage for each type of work that they will potentially fund you for if you qualify.

So when you were talking about the incentives for people who are converting apartments, I think you were talking like one of those programs is VHIP. And it has various levels of loan forgiveness too. So if you are, and I think it's what, 50,000 per market rate unit or something like that.

Up to, depending on the size, yes.

Right. And so if you agree to make it available at the market rate, I think it's, what, about $1,100 for a two-bedroom?

It all varies. Last time I looked at it. If you go onto the Vermont HUD website, you actually have to put in what size unit, what's included. So if heat, hot water, any utilities are included. It is a calculator. So for a one-bedroom apartment, it's about $919 a month. You have to offer it to... someone for that price that goes through their program for eight weeks. And then after the eight weeks, if you can't find an acceptable tenant that qualifies, then you can go out to the public, to anyone, but it has to be at that same rate for five years.

Okay. Okay. One of the, one of the things that I'm concerned about with, you know, converting buildings into apartments is we're having a real trouble with parking. And we need to get more parking in the downtown area that's available. And I think that's going to be a problem that's going to get in the way of having more housing units in the downtown area. Parking is tough because we can't use this front area here because of the snow plowing. So part of what we need to be thinking about is how we get more parking availability. There's a unit over here that's got one... the two units upstairs and there's and there's like a half a part half a car space for the people to park in and it's just you know i see it when we're snow plowing and whatever um you know it's hard to navigate around cars that are illegally parked and whatever we simply need more more parking well i think in our zoning what is it you're allowed two cars per apartment is that how it works

But there's not I get it.

I get it because of changes in the home act, the parking requirements for areas that are served by offset water and sewer are lowered to 1 parking space per unit. We don't even have that. I think it makes sense to, when we identified some of those underutilized lots or areas that had vacant space or additional infill space, like they could add another primary structure, just to be mindful of creating like one or two parking spaces when they are developed. But I think it's doable. We identified about a thousand, what was it, about a thousand acres of infill development space. And I know that not everybody is going to want to develop that, but that still allows you to create new units in the village.

Where is that parking? Specifically in our downtown area, where is the parking?

When you're looking at specific infill for underutilized developed areas or areas that have a lot of blank space, you would just have to be mindful of the site design so that somebody could safely access the street or create a single parking unit. When you're also talking about infill development we're not talking about massive condos we're just talking about like an accessory dwelling unit or or a smaller like a carriage house or something like that so a lot of this is is infill it's like really gentle infill it's not just building one massive housing project

I don't know if that answered my question, but okay.

I don't think you can answer it without coming up with a specific site design. But what you can do for revising your zoning bylaws is just to make sure that your zoning doesn't get in the way of a good idea when somebody comes to you with one.

Well, just down the road, we have six units being built in a building that was never – basically, it was a warehouse before, and now it's going to be six more apartment units. There's no parking. You can't park on the street because of the snow clearing, so there's no street parking. We need to have lot space, and we need to purchase it or have a town do it or whatever where people can park because you can't – there's just not –

When you're talking about this, we went to see those properties. It's not just in town. We're talking... I don't even know what street it is, but I mean, there is places to park if you're building on those areas. I mean, there's plenty of parking, but as far as the downtown, you're right.

The downtown is terrible.

We're talking when we did that Drive around. We were also visiting neighborhoods like for neighborhood style development surrounding the downtown. So, yes, we're not just talking about the core. Right. There was that area, I think, where the house burned and it was near a rail that was near the rail line, for example. That lot was deep enough to allow for angel development and parking. There was also the space that was adjacent to the former town garage.

I mean, a lot of those spaces had all kinds of room for parking. But as far as the downtown?

Right in the village here, it's chaos, really. I mean, in terms of the parking, it's... I mean, we should look at maybe looking at some lots that can be purchased by the town and set aside as parking. You know, that's, you know, maybe getting some, I don't know what kind of grants and things are available to get, you know, just to get parking lots, you know.

But where would you put that?

I don't know. I mean, even looking at, you know. Devices for sale.

Yeah.

this is your vases for sale all kinds of parking indoor too even that even that parking is tricky right there that's owned by the railroad so yeah and they're never going to get that but um you couldn't sign a lease agreement to rent the space for parking i mean they wouldn't i mean we have this piece we have this piece of grass over here that's used for nothing i mean we could expand the parking lot over there we cannot We cannot.

That is part of the park. It's got an easement on it.

It doesn't allow that. And there's no way to touch it. No, you can't. What about out back here by the pole there? They're going to be putting in a new pole in the back of the building here?

The new pole is actually going behind Basil's building next door. Our fold does not change. But that actually, we are going to be fixing that area because that is supposed to be green space back there. There's a triangle there that is required as part of that easement because it was part of the original park grant that started the park. So we will be changing that this fall.

What about some kind of redesign out here front that we could actually set aside some of this parking out here? Because we have this, I mean, this huge building over here with what, how many units do you have? Nine? I mean, there's not, Realistically, that's been a problem for...

The other problem is it's like, well, if you're living here and you have to go park over there, I mean... You ain't gonna do it.

That's not gonna happen. Some people would, especially in the winter, if it was there.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, but some have no choice. But where would you go? I mean, we're constantly running into cars that are parked out here and there's no enforcement, really, because we we try to get vehicles towed or ticketed. There's no way we're doing that. It's like you just create anger in the community by doing that.

And they have to take themselves out.

Yeah, it's yeah, whatever. But yeah, it's just tough because there's there is no legitimate parking for it.

So two things, one thing I just wanna make sure that when we're talking, when I'm talking about the downtown, I'm talking about it in a holistic sense. So not just that core that's designated, but we would be able to, particularly if we adopted subdivision regs, that we would be able to expand on those areas that are Act 250 exempt, and we could encourage more compact neighborhood style development. And that was in some of the areas that we toured last year. So I consider those neighborhood areas immediately surrounding the core as part of your downtown, because it's bringing more housing and it's more users of the infrastructure, but it's also bringing more people to downtown. The other thing that other communities have done is to try to take, you know, like for their core where people are really strapped for parking, start looking at shared use opportunities. Like in our community, we signed an agreement for daytime parking with one of the churches, and that's alleviated a lot of the parking issues. Right in the village core, like on Hill Street, where it crosses Route 2, that area gets really congested. And we have a really popular restaurant, for example, that has like no parking. So that's one opportunity. The other thing that we did is we actually purchased, the town purchased a property that And they did it about almost nine years ago. And it's probably not the best way to do it. But they just purchased it with the intention of creating a parking lot. And then they found out that it was actually going to be kind of expensive to regrade it. But they did apply for just in this last round, and they received a grant to redevelop it into a shared use municipal lot. So it's not just for the town hall, but it's, it provides up to 29 spaces. So it could also support, like, people who are visiting the rail trail, visiting the library, visiting local businesses to, you know, stuff like that. so you could take that kind of inventory around town and just even maybe even work um with a landscape architect and just identify something that would work to alleviate some of that pressure in the core and we can certainly include that as a recommendation in the plan i will say we do have another lot on the other side of sunrise manor bruce that the town owns and nobody uses yes

You know, there's probably, what, 12, 15 spaces over there, and there's never anybody parked there.

Yep.

But it is, I mean, it's literally, it's a block away. It's not that far to walk. Yeah. The other thing, Allison, are we able to get a copy of what subdivision regs would look like? We keep talking about it, but, you know, it sounds like it's something we should be pursuing. So can we get a copy of what we might want to be working on?

yeah so as a matter of fact um the town of gill hall is having their first hearing for some proposed subdivision regs on wednesday so i can send you that as an example um they um They certainly meet, I think, the requirements for subdivision regs. There might be some additional things that you would want to look at, particularly when you are doing infill development that might create a road or a driveway onto a busy road. um you might want to have some stronger standards but that would certainly be a good starting place just so you see what what's entailed in it i can send that to you as well that would be awesome i just figured we keep talking about it but you know we haven't actually started working on it so perhaps we should start looking at it yeah and i think it also might um help us in the town plan just explain not like a white paper or something, but just to explain in a very high level, like what it is and why it's important. So it's really important when you are enabling future development, how you lay out roads, future roads, how you're laying out future infrastructure like stormwater and potentially street lighting or sidewalks. All of those things are really important. Yeah, we can have a little, like maybe like an inset box or something in the land use section.

One more thing I was thinking, what about approaching Brighton Garage and maybe purchasing some of their lot there for parking? I mean, it's centrally located for a lot of our downtown. That would be a town thing and I'd have to go to the voters.

I think that's isn't the road. That's like a right away. Right. Between the.

It's not an actual road. It's just it's. Well, whatever.

Between the Yellow Deli and the garage is a road there.

There's not actually. I was just looking at it. I was trying. It's not a road.

I get it. But people go through there. Who owns that?

Each of the property owners, it's right on the property line for all of them. I tried to see if it was town property because I was having to try and get an easement out of a separate property owner. I'm like, well, if it's in our right-of-way, we can do that ourselves. And it turns out we don't actually own the right-of-way.

So what if the landowners on either side would want to come up with, would sell, whatever, would agree to make that into a parking lot? you know, which would be, you know, mixed use. They could even have some of the, the used cars parked there or whatever. I mean, you know, you know, explore that.

It's just, it's, that's, that's a discussion we'd have to have with Craig to see if he's even interested. And then it would have to go to the voters before we could afford, we would have to buy it. It's not like there's money for that sitting out there.

As we start to expand housing, we need to be coming up with parking because we're really hamstringing ourselves with parking.

I'd pay a hundred bucks a month to park indoors. Nope.

But anyways, yeah, something I would think would be worth exploring. I ain't even talking to him about it.

idea yep all right thank you bruce any other discussion the town parking garage okay so i'm going to change it up i'm going to have bruce do his update because if you want to stay for the bylaws discussion you know i thought you might want to so i want to do the your update oh zoning update and then we'll do the zoning bylaws out so um

A couple things. I've been kind of cleaning up and talking to people. So I've communicated with our dilapidated property on Derby Street. The property owner's going back to dragging her feet about it. And so she wants to contact a lawyer because she's convinced that the property owners on either side have stolen some of her land. So she's going to have, she wants to get it surveyed. She's hoping to be able to come up to town. If her health improves, she wants to come up to town and see if she can fix the place and make it livable again. It's falling down, but anyways, it's, So, so we I'd originally sent her a violation letter, which allowed us to charge her $100 a day until she tore the place down. Then I She said she was going to sell it. Now she doesn't seem like she's going to sell it. So I don't know. That's an ongoing issue. It's been going on for years. So I'm trying to resolve that eventually. I talked with Mr. Fortin over there, and I think that's going to be really close to a resolution out there. We're going to clean that all up, and he's going to get the – uh, things, um, moving forward. He's going to get the permits that he needs for his properties out there and everything cleaned up on that. And that's great. Had a good conversation with him. Um, I just spoke with our friend from up north, the Canadian who's building the house there for 15 or 20 years. He's going to be getting a permit for his trailer that has been there for many years that doesn't have a permit. And it's his residence when he's building and he's there. So it's hooked up to utilities. So it needs to have a permit. I explained that to him. He's going to be also adding somewhere in the back there a trailer. a, a storage building and, uh, it's already made building. So he's not going to be building it. So it'll be done being delivered on site. So that's fine. And that's great. Um, he's going to put it all on one permit, which will give him his, you know, which he doesn't have to do two separate permits for everything. So he's going to clean that all up. Uh, he's next week and he's going to get that done. Um, I spoke with, uh, The guy out on the corner of Pleasant Street and Lakeshore Drive, he built a big deck, huge deck out there. And he didn't realize he needed a permit. So now he's going to get that. So that's going to get taken care of. And so I'm kind of going around. We have still the containers on Lakeshore, maybe – They have to remove them. So the DRB didn't give them the variance on that. So I don't know. Maybe you guys can suggest how much time should he have to get rid of them before we move forward with that?

Well, he didn't give us any time to even get a permit. So why do we have to?

Well, I think the DRB chickened out.

Why? He didn't have a setback.

whole don't yeah don't go there that whole area is messed up i think there's something wrong with the whole survey that was done there because but anyways i i that that needs to be resolved if they want to you know handle it through they can appeal the drb decision to there's a um the environment what's environmental something anyways there's a another level that they can go and i haven't spoken with them because They've been very distant when I've seen them, so they haven't really walked away. Well, I get it.

What is it? They're not meeting the setbacks of the property next to them?

It's not clear where the line really is. Well, because there's a road there that isn't really a road.

Okay, there's a little piece of property there that the surveyor put on there is sandwiched between two roads, which we can't figure out who owns them.

Okay.

And, and, and, and they don't meet the setbacks from where their new prop, where the, the survey said where their property line is, they don't meet the setbacks in any way, shape or form. They if, if, if they own those roads, then they, they would. But, but they, but we, there's, there's no indication that they'd own the roads. So yeah, it's, it's a quagmire anyways, but.

Yeah, I question the buildability of the lot in the first place. It's a triangle, and if you take all the setbacks, you don't have any footprint left, basically. Yeah, there's nothing. I mean, it's a small little... I think what the guy did is right. I mean, if you skin it in barn board, it would look fine.

Well, it's not about looks. Yeah. So the only thing with zoning is setbacks. We don't care. You can build the ugliest building you want on your property. There's no zoning thing that says, we're not an HOA or anything like that. It's just so you don't encroach on your neighbor. That's what the setbacks are there for. Right. But you don't know where that is. And my point and the reason I told them they needed to go to the DRB is because I thought they're really not encroaching on their neighbor because there's two roads that flank their property. So they're encroaching on the road, but not the neighbor's property. But who knows? Yeah, it's weird.

Measured to the neighbor's property line. It's fine.

Yeah. Who owns the property? The survey says they don't own the roads. So their property edges are on this side of the road and then the neighbors start on the other side of the road. So

It was a mess. If you find the page, you pulled the page out of the original book.

Yeah.

And the surveyor wrote this long disclaimer about, well, we don't really know about all this stuff over here.

It's what happened when they originally started subdividing everything in that lake district. Everybody wanted lakefront property and they cut these little slivers of their property that are 80 feet wide and, you know, 300 feet long. You know, it's just, yeah, it's hard to figure it all out.

So they're on a lake here and then they're... Well, they don't... You should really look at the... Yeah, the road's kind of crisscrossed. Well, I've seen it, but I'm asking because, okay, say their house is over here. So are they... No, it's not even straight.

It kind of angles off and it looks like it... Yeah, and the roads crisscross on the – What do you do in that case?

Who owns it? We don't know. So what – We need to have – How can we really tell them that they can't do that?

Because we're basing it on the survey. Okay. And that's what the DRB based it on was the survey, the very cloudy survey. Right, right. I mean, I don't know anything more to say about it than that. I can't wait to see how it turns out. It's got to be a legal quagmire. I don't know what it's going to be like.

So what do you do from this point on? Well, I mean, according to the DRB, they can't have those containers there.

But I'm waiting for them to do something because they got to either remove them or they got to kick it up to some other authority or whatever. So you're still going to try to have a discussion with them? Well, when I see them, I'll find out what their plans are. But I don't know. I mean... I don't know.

Who takes care of the road?

He's going to know that he's going to get fined eventually if he wants to just get there, right? You can't really find them until they know exactly what's going on. Yeah, I don't.

I thought we already knew what's going on from the beginning. No, they don't. They don't.

Yeah, you take us. It's going to get fun. I'm saying that again, then, what we just did. We went to the DRB.

Okay, so the survey shows where their property lines are. they're, they put those containers there without getting a permit. Then I asked them to get a permit, told them that they weren't going to meet the setback. So I was going to deny the permit. They could appeal it to the DRB and that's what they did. So then the DRB said, no, we're not going to give you the variance because you don't meet the setbacks. And so that's where we're at right now. Cause all that was based on the survey where this is what the survey said, this is what you own that little triangle there. And, um,

Based on the DRV, then you should just move forward with the findings. That's the case. Or just have them.

That is how it works, Bruce. I mean, if the DRV denied his request, you move forward with, it's a violation.

Okay, so that's the judgment is to issue a violation. Yeah.

And then he was denied. He either has to move or it's a violation. But this distance is OK. Well, then I'll proceed with that. And he interpreted the code at the distance to the neighbor's lot.

We want to make a we do. We have to. So we decided. Yeah, it's OK. We don't have to approve. OK.

I just was curious if we give him time to how much time to remove him.

I mean, you know, give him give him until all his appeals are exhausted.

Yeah. No. Right now, unless we're fining him, it doesn't force him to do anything, right? They're still sitting there.

I mean, how do you... Well, you have to go through the whole notice of violation. You've got to start that full process.

The notice of violation says you have seven days to correct it before the $100 a day fine goes into effect.

Then that'll get him moving.

That'll get him moving.

That's how I look at it.

Let him get an attorney and fight it out. And if he files an appeal, then you just have to wait until the appeal ends. And if they deny him at the appeal level, then...

Okay. It is what it is.

It's not like we're after it for the money. It's to force him to do something.

Go to the state Supreme Court.

Okay. And then the last thing I wanted to bring up is... So right now the listers are going back through, I guess for an extended period of time, the zoning administrator was not issuing certificates of occupancy, COs. Okay. And anyway, so the listers are going back through and trying to clean that up and getting all these COs. Well, So I think they're charging $50 for the CO, which I kind of think is, and I'll say it straight out, I think it's ridiculous. Someone just paid $150 for the permit. It used to be $75 for a permit. Now it's $150 for a permit. shouldn't some of that just shouldn't when you buy a permit it includes the whole process so that you're not then you don't have at the end you got the thing built and now you got to pay another 50 to get us it's like that everywhere else yeah but i thought we had discussed that we did that we did that once we did we did that once and what happened was then it took it out we have so many outstanding ceos from years gone by

How do you know which ones paid the 50 bucks? Who didn't? And that's where we ended up going back to just charging it when they apply for the CO, that's when you collect the fee.

When they apply for the...

When they apply to get the certificate of occupancy, they pay the fee then because there was no way to go back because there's so many outstanding ones from years on by because nobody files it. Nobody gets it until they try to sell the property.

But now they're required to have them. According to Joel, they're required to have a CO now.

Right, but I thought we had discussed this. We were going to put it in the permit. When you went for your permit, that $50 was going to be in there so that it was paid. That's not what we agreed on.

We did it one time.

You guys did try that for a while.

I thought you changed it back.

Yeah, that's what I thought. We changed it back to a separate fee of $50. I don't remember that. I do.

Yeah, we went back afterwards, but we did include it at one time.

Why did we do that?

I don't know.

Honestly, I think it had to do with the fact that nobody could figure out, you know, when somebody comes in and fills out the piece of paper that they need a certificate of occupancy, there is no way that the staff are going to know, do I charge them 50 bucks or don't I charge them 50 bucks?

But if it was part of the permit, then it would be paid. But we have probably 500 old ones that do not pay that. I'm talking looking forward. Why don't we just have it on the permit?

No, but I guess my question is, how will they know a year and a half from now when those people come in that they need to pay or don't pay? You got the permit. This isn't an automated system. This is that somebody has to go try and dig up paperwork.

If they come in and they have a CO, we just, moving forward, don't charge them for it.

Well, then you're going to need to charge. You're going to need to up your permit fee then.

That's correct.

Why? I mean, that's what pays your salary, Bruce. It's not like it can't go down. There's a cost to having a zoning administrator and having zoning. There is a cost to that. And we can't give it away for free. Otherwise, the taxpayers are picking up that cost.

All right. Well, it's just... I mean, I got this one. I'm looking at a CO going back to 2021. So and then they should pay $50.

They didn't pay the $50 back then.

So they but there's nothing on this form that indicates to me. So if I go over and I check this out and see that they have a garage here and I sign it off, then how do I know it was paid? There's nothing on here that checks off whether they paid or not.

They paid the permit.

Do they pay when they pick up this CO? But I'm handing out COs when they get their permit application or I'll go back and check. Once they call me, I tell them, hey, let me know when you're finished and I'll go back and check and do this. I don't charge them. They got to go in. But where does it tell me on this that they paid the fee? How do I know they paid it? We need to change the form, Bruce.

We just need to change the form.

I didn't create that form. Yeah, then that should be done. Okay.

Well, that has to be changed, and so does the permit.

We have it already written in the new bylaws that we haven't addressed yet. Isn't it in that book, the bylaws?

I don't know. I'm going to look at it.

pretty sure it's supposed to be in there we had talked about it and i was going to get put in our new bylaw yeah well i don't i just feel awkward going back to somebody after they've after they paid their permit and everything is saying oh yeah now you need a co now you gotta go pay another 50 bucks well that's why i said keep it in put it in the permit that's what we were gonna do well then he just said we switched it back i know we did but why i have no idea why but

Don't know.

Because you and I were on when we were discussing that. Anyways, that's something to think about. I mean, you know. We upped the permit price. That's right. Exactly. For 50 bucks.

Yep.

And put the CO in it.

Mm-hmm. I remember. Most, just one thing I'll say. Most communities are halfway sizable communities. When buildings change hands, The lawyer wants a CEO. The bank wants a CEO. Everybody wants to see an occupancy permit. So that's... That might be why it's separate. It is separate.

Well, I'm just saying because then you would have to buy a permit.

If you just include the fees and the permitting, says nothing in there about the CEO is covered. Well, you know, now the attorney says, well, I need a CO. So now we're going to write out another CO. We already said that they had a CO. Most communities, you can't move into your house until you have an occupancy permit signed.

Okay. So you have your permit. They fill out the permit. You have another form for the CO. You sign it. They pay for it. when they get their permit, it doesn't get signed until you go back, but they've already paid it, and then you sign that.

So then let's make the permit fee $200 and then they can pay it. Right. I mean, cause they need a CEO with their.

But the thing is, is like Bill said, we had raised the permit $50 because it was supposed to be included.

That's what I, that's what I had this conversation with Joel about. And I thought that that's what I was alluding to is, is that, you know, we've it's built into that. And so why are we now charging an additional 50 bucks later?

Yeah.

You know, anyway. I think that's written into your Vermont statutes. Certificate of occupancy. It's pretty clear the what and the why in that certificate.

Of course, I understand why it's there, but you finished your building project, you finished whatever you're done, but we're going back and asking for another 50 bucks after that. I mean, I don't know. I think it should just be all... You know, one fee. And then and then once they call me and say it's done, then I sign this off. They got their CEO and they move on.

So this is my. OK, so they get you get the permit and you get the CEO attached to it. They pay the fifty dollars. And then when they're done, you go back. And if everything's OK, you sign it. They've already paid it. If you don't sign it, it hasn't been paid.

Well, that's not the current practice right now.

I get it. I know. And that's probably something that should be done.

Most communities, when you need a CEO, after you've just built a brand new home... Mm-hmm. not the zoning administrator, but in most communities, you have a building inspector, electrical inspector, a fire department goes in and makes sure that everything meets the law as far as smoke detectors and all this and that. And then you get your occupancy permit to move in. That removes all the liability from the town.

That's what I'm saying.

It was inspected by everybody. We don't do that here. well they don't do that in vermont at all there is no residential building inspection yeah no i realize that but when it comes to occupancy permit that that's how it is that i'm not checking exactly and that's what i'm saying that's not other communities other places that's how it's done the reason we went to the tragedy in the uh

permit was because nobody was getting the ceos that's right and we decided we would up the permit by 50 so it would automatically pay for it so then they would get it then they would come and get one that's right but that's what that's not what's happening right now they're getting an additional 50 bucks after they paid the 150 for the permit so that's what i'm saying this ceo

You staple it to the permit.

Okay. I'll let the ladies know.

And then, well, this is my, okay. So you get, they have their permit and then you go and check to make sure that everything is, then you sign the CEO and said, everything's good. They pay for it because they paid for it with their permit. If it doesn't meet, then they don't get their CO because they did something wrong or whatever.

What happens if you built a house 10 years ago, got a CO? Now you're building a garage with an apartment upstairs. That means you need another CO. That's right.

Yeah. That's a new permit. Yeah, of course. That's a new permit, yeah. That's right.

And this applies to decks, to storage buildings, everything they need to seal for a deck. Yeah, everything. Okay. But I would like to see it all collected up front.

That's right.

So that we're not saying, okay, and by the way, you need to pay this extra $50 because you needed a CO.

So you guys can make that decision. If you want to do that, you can make that. What you're going to have to account for is what are you doing with any permit that's been issued prior to today? If you make that change today, what are you doing with anything in the past?

Because that's... You'd charge them 50 bucks. Well, no, no, hang on. So they paid the permit fee before, which should have always included the CO fee. And so because we raised the permit fee, we included the CO in there.

Let's just moving... We had that discussion. And that's why we made it separate because... We don't know. You and I both know nobody paid for it ahead of time.

I think. No one paid.

What if it was guys in the permanent project?

Come on.

You can't just look at the permit and say that it's $100 or $150. How many are there out there that didn't get a seal?

As I go back and I try to clean these up and give COs to people that never got them, I would like to just say, hey, it was included in your fee. And moving forward, we include it all in the fees. And so from now on, somebody gets a permit. It includes the CO. And then once they get, they call me and say, it's all done. I go check and I issue the CO and then done. On to the next. But I think that needs to be decided among this group.

That's what I think.

I do too. I think it should be added.

Yep.

Yep.

So adding the fee as well. And you're giving up any previous CO fee. What I'm saying is you've got to make this very clear. Yes, yes, we are. Because we can't implement it. If you're just walking away and leaving, you know, I don't know how many thousands of dollars on the table. I can't believe this that much. I don't think so. Call Teresa and ask them how many times they get calls for COs from the attorneys when they're trying to do closings. There's a whole lot of them out there.

Yes, because they wouldn't get the CO because they had to pay extra money at the time.

Who's going to go digging in the archives to see if a CO was paid for?

They're not going to worry about it. They're not going to worry about it.

That's why you put on the document at the bottom of your permit. But that's not bad. That's the problem. Your fee is $200. You have to change the document. Your fee is $200. And at the bottom, you say, this includes permit plus CO. At the end of your project, you have 90 days to obtain your CO. That's correct. If you do not, you have to pay 50 again to get another copy. I agree.

Yes.

That would be good. You had that one sentence on the bottom.

So then if the attorney calls, if he calls for a second, he's not going to pay.

This is man hours. That's correct.

So the permit is up. We had agreed. We had gone up on the price. And that was supposed to cover the CO. And that was before my time.

And that's what Joel communicated to me.

And that's why they went up on the price. They took the CO price out of there.

Well. Okay.

That's what they did.

Well, we have to look back at the minutes from whatever meeting you decided that. Well... I don't know.

Whatever it is, I think it needs to be stapled in with the permit and say, okay, when you're done. That's a good idea.

It is. I think it's spelled out really clearly on there.

It's included with your permit.

Yes, because you're going to need it.

You have to pay for another one.

If they never call you for a CO after that, I mean, you need to go out and do an inspection. If you have a timeline on it, you got to have a timeline. Yeah.

Well, everybody that I talked to and I talked to everybody going forward, I've been talking to everybody that's doing any kind of building project. And I say, Hey, when you're done, call me and I'm going to come out and make sure you've built what you're going to build.

Say that it should say that on the permit.

I know it doesn't. We need to address change. So who, who updates the permit? Who does these forms?

The plan board has to make decisions. You guys do.

Okay, so you guys.

I mean, I can do it if you send me what you want. If you send me what you want changed on it, I will do it for you. But that is the planning commission's job. Yeah.

Okay, so. I like his idea.

Yeah.

Okay, did you record what he said? So make sure we have. It'll be on the recording. You'll be able to.

It'll be on YouTube later. So are you saying you're keeping it $150 or $200?

Up to $200.

But mention on there that that includes $50 for the CO. That way it's clear that so they're going to get their CO off their money.

And the thing of it is, is they'll be more apt to come back and get their CO because they've already paid for it. Whereas before, they weren't getting it, they weren't going to come back.

And going forward, we don't have to charge them after and say, hey, we'll have to go on the permit form that they have so many days.

He said that. But what's going to happen if they don't? How are you going to know to charge $50?

I don't care what the form says.

I'm calling in.

I'm an attorney. I need to do a closing tomorrow. I need a CO. I need it signed on today. How are you dealing with that? Okay, but that has to be included as part of your motion is what I'm trying to get across. You have to spell out what is the cutoff. What is your stipulation as to charging a separate fee? You can't just say it's $200.

It's included.

We're not charging anybody anymore. Well, you have to be specific is what I'm trying to get across.

I don't think there is a time.

There isn't a time limit on permits. You need to start your project within two years of the start of the permit application. You need to start it. And start it means what? It's a quasi... I mean, it's... Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, did you stake out the little, you know, is that starting yet? Drop the shipping container. There, it started. Isn't that a change you guys are making, though, in the bylaw? Is to change that, that it has to be a year? You have to, you have to. It's only good for a year. I mean, we've made the guy out on Derby Street that you guys were talking about. The one that's got the building for 100 years. We made him apply for multiple permits.

That's correct. We have. He's expired.

Well, gosh, I think Allison has a question.

Well, he's been building the house for 20 years.

OK, let's not use him as an example. That's not right. We need to put a timeline on me.

OK, Allison, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

Yeah, I didn't want to just butt in, but statutory reform changed the period that a zoning permit stays like it has to expire after a year. That was some of the permit reforms that happened around the time of the Home Act. So that's probably why it's written in that way in your zoning bylaw change.

Okay, so that's going to be in the new one. When are the new bylaws coming?

When we get to look at it and read it and approve it, then it has to go to the select board.

So what do I do in the interim?

Right now, from what we were told at the meetings, we're not going to be discussing this until after 2027, after this is all done. This is what Joel's waiting for.

Wait, we need the town plan before we can update the zoning bylaws? That's correct. Is that correct? Yep. That is the idea.

Typically, that's how it's normally done, but...

So all you're enforcing is the old laws. Nothing new.

Your permit stuff, the thing is, state law trumps our zoning. So state law says they expire in a year, they expire in a year. I don't care what our zoning bylaw says. It's like you can't, you know, all those things that we have in our zoning about, you know, you can't have an accessory dwelling, two dwellings on a lot. That's all gone, even though our zoning says that it's mute. It's not enforceable.

So it should be on the permit form.

The new form should say that it's a year, yes.

We need some serious updating on... Yeah, that permit's been updating for years. And you guys are the ones that update that.

So we're really getting busy on our town planning.

Well, we need to update this.

I know, but he can't do it. Yeah, but he can. He can because it's the form.

Yes. So it says good for.

All right. So do you want to change the feed thing tonight or do you want to do that at your next meeting after we can actually write down a real motion that's going to be. everything included that needs to be included in that.

We'll put it on the agenda for the next meeting.

I would recommend that you wait and we actually figure out the language that needs to be in there because it's great to say the CO is included, but then I also know that you're going to get all of these things that are going to come up and we have to address that as part of that motion so that it's clear cut because if you leave it ambiguous, people will always find a reason not to follow it.

So that's... Hey, Cameron, the next meeting. You also have to make sure you have a timeline of when it's considered complete because they can leave one board off and be like, well, I never completed it.

That's right. So you have to cover both ends.

One year, it's valid. One year after start, it has to be completed. Whatever the term is, you just have to have something written in that at the bottom. Just have your couple paragraphs of your sentences. Then it's clear. So no one can argue with you. It's right there on the bottom. This is what it's covered.

So we want... Your permit is good for one year. You have to complete your project and get your CO signed off within one year. Is that what we're saying?

It has to start within a year.

It's active for one year.

And then you can say it has to be completed within one year of start date. Well, when does it start?

What's the start date? Allison, is that what the... Because I'll have to go look up the language on that.

Because that doesn't seem like a long time. I mean, you're building... It's substantially commenced.

Okay, within one year. Right now it says it has to be substantially commenced within two years, is what our zoning bylaws currently say. Right. The state has changed that. Go ahead.

Sorry, I was just going to say, if it helps, we compiled a matrix of all of the statutory changes regarding zoning going back to 2013. And we can send that out to you. So at the very least, if you know, if you can identify something that you just need to defer to statute, it'll help. It's not like a zoning bylaw rewrite. It's a band-aid, but hopefully it's useful.

Okay. And what do we do with, so any of these going back, whenever the listers dig up COs that don't exist, they're going to come in and have to pay a $50 fee before I go out and look at it. That's correct. Okay. And then, so we need to have something on here that shows me that, you know, when they, when they put it in my box there and I go out and look at it, I don't know if these, I've got two right here from 2021 and I don't know if they paid the $50 or not. And I can't see it in the, in the book there. So I would say they haven't yet.

No.

Well, we could ask them just to mark on it that they, you know, one of them in the office could just mark on the ones and say, paid.

I would doubt very much that any of them were paid. Unless they actually came in to get it, because if they don't have a copy of their CO, then obviously they didn't pay for it.

They don't have a copy for the CO and the lawyer's calling for another one. He's going to have to pay the $50 fee.

Well, I get that. Yeah, that would be in the lawyer's fees.

Because the girl's got to go dig everything up.

That's right. This says application date was three... 3-11-07, and this one's 6-11-21. Can we assure you they didn't pay no $50 fee for this?

No, they did not pay any fee on either of those dates, I can assure you.

So now we've got to go back and tell them, hey, you've got to pay $50 for each one of these? Yep.

Attorneys are used to that. We've done it that way forever. Are they asking for that?

I just got these in my box from the listers. So these are ones that they found that... Oh, they didn't have a seal. But they look like they were filled out years ago. Yeah. But they have no administration signature on them. Nobody signed them.

They would have been filled out, but they weren't assigned them. They weren't issued.

Oh, so they did... Oh, they filled it out.

in philadelphia nobody ever just i'll talk to joel about these because he must have put them in my box and i don't know um they must have come from somewhere whatever we do we better be consistent my friend well right now we're in this transitional period so consistency is going to be really hard to be fair to everybody i don't know how we're a poor community man oh so this is oh the money's money well it says right here they paid 75 bucks so they go that was it they didn't they didn't pay no extra 50 bucks they paid for the permit yeah right they paid for the permit so i gotta call them up now and say you gotta pay 50 to get this thing filed that you filled out the form you know five years ago

Oh, 2007?

This was 2021. This was the garage or something in 2021, but that was the house.

Same people?

Yeah.

Wow.

Anyways, all right. No worries. Didn't put it on one permit to save money? No, they were built 14 years apart. 14 years apart, yeah. There's no time limit. All right.

Guys, we got to do a better job. We got to, I don't know. We got to make, yeah. Yeah, we don't want to sound like East Haven.

Are we okay? Are we good?

I think that's all I have. Yeah, I'm sorry. Go on. Any other discussion?

I have a question. I wasn't clear on what you were doing with Ginsburg. Oops.

With what? The abandoned house.

Oh, he. I wasn't sure how you were moving forward on it. I think you. No, I did. I don't know if you said anything. I talked about it. Yeah.

Yeah, you did.

Yeah. I didn't hear any action taken. I didn't mention any names.

Sorry.

All right.

Well, then we'll have to have a discussion or I'll have to listen to the recording.

I don't remember what you said.

Okay. So the other point is the zoning bylaws. Like if we want to have a discussion, like on some of the points of like the containers are a big one that we should be talking about.

When we get our paperwork from Joel and we sit down and go over it, Any changes that we want to do at that time before it goes to the select board is the time that we're going to do that. There's no sense talking about this now. We don't have a copy of the new bylaws. I haven't seen it. Everybody was sent that.

Everybody has. That's right. I do not have that.

We all have it. I'll email it to you.

But we have to have meetings to go over this together. I know. Well, I'm most of the people.

Does anybody else need one that way? I know it was been passed. I'm just curious.

Why is it all Joel's responsibility to get this all done? I mean, this is the group.

He's not even he's not even on.

Yeah. So, I mean, not even I mean, you know, we're we're we're saying, Joel, get it. He's the one. This is the group that decides that he got done.

He worked with us. We went through the whole book. And we made changes. And he said he was going to write it up. He did. Remember that? Yes, right here.

Okay. So we have that, though.

Yeah, we have that.

So why aren't we looking at it? Because we were told at a previous meeting that we weren't going to continue with this until after... This thing with the town village center.

So we have to wait till the town plan is done before. This is true. We have to wait till the town plan is done before we can update the zoning bylaws. That's correct. And we kick that down to 2027.

Why can't we update it on the paper? So the thing is, what you have to make sure of is anything you're putting in your town plan, you're including in your zoning bylaw. Otherwise, you're doing it twice. And doing a zoning bylaw amendment, you know, to redo these, there's a whole lot of advertising and meetings. And so you don't do it just on a whim. That's why it was said, you know, well, do the town plan first, because it identifies what should be in your zoning bylaw. You know, I think we do need to get the matrix from Allison about what law changes, because you guys have been working on this for a long time now. I don't think some of what we have in there is actually even legal anymore, and it's going to need to be changed and updated. We started doing this three years ago. We started rewriting the bylaws three years ago. I know. The laws have been changing nonstop since. That's right. So for what it's worth, I did see... Allison's going to talk.

I'm sorry. I did see an early draft of the regs that Joel was working on, and he had caught a lot of the statutory stuff. So... in his draft.

That's what he said.

I don't know where that exists now, but I will send on the matrix and then hopefully that, at the very least, might be able to give you an interim statutory fix. And I promise I'll put myself back on mute now and shut up.

You're fine, Allison. Trust me. Joel Kingston?

I think a big part of it was the housing targets and stuff like that. I don't think we had that. That was still all in flux when we were the last time we worked on it.

Now, can we change the permits without going to the bylaws?

Yes. They're not in the bylaws. The actual dollar amounts are not in there. That will be a motion, but we have to make sure we write it right.

We need to get the forms updated. Katie can do it. Yes.

We'll start working on that then.

You know, we can put that together. I mean, you guys could start working on it. We just have to make sure that it's

consistent with what we're putting the town plan what would also be nice to hand out to somebody when they come for a permit is say these are the steps you follow this is what you know do this do this do this do this and so it's like a a guide to getting your your permit and everything approved you can write that up bruce if this is well i think we have it i think you have it kind of Well, there's, there's a thing, what needs to go on the plot map on the back, but no, but I mean like, okay, so, you know, you, you fill out this form. You have some, you have to start this project within so many days. I mean, all the little nuts and bolts going down a list that they can follow and say, Hey, I've done all this.

Yeah.

And then, you know, and it, and it becomes a complete project then.

Yeah. Well, when we do the permit, we've got to write on it to, They have so long to start it and so long to finish it.

Because, I mean, I've had people that, you know, they're like a plot map. What's that? You know, and then I have to explain it and show them, you know, and I help them draw it out and all that, you know. So, you know, because it's not, everybody doesn't automatically know how to do this if they want to build a little shed. I mean, what does that mean? I mean, they're not built, you know, they're going to have someone build it, but they've got to apply for the permit or they can have the, I mean, it just needs to be more clear to them.

Make the zoning permit for dummies cheat sheet.

I will try to put something together and I'll try to update the form a little bit and see what we can come up with by our next meeting. And then you guys can have something to look at.

How's that?

Look at the DLLC posters. The Department of Liquor Control has some really nice posters.

how to get a license to serve at a farmer's market step one step two exactly that's that's the kind of thing do this do this do this and then yeah if you don't need this then go here and if you need get out on the lake go here here and then you go here here here because like you know how do i find out what district i'm in or you know how do i find out you know right you know what my my uh Parcel ID number is, how do, you know, they need to know all that. If you put it in chat, GBT will give you a whole summary and then you can just tweet it. Yeah, there you go.

Yeah, I'll have a chat, GBT, whatever. I mean, most places you go online and it gives you all that information on your property.

We have a lot of people that don't go online and don't know what's going on. It cost me $40, but I got it because I needed the latitude and whatever. I'm like, and now they keep sending me stuff. That's how I want it.

Anyways. Okay. I'll try to come up with something. Yeah, I will.

Very good.

It'll make my job easier. That's for sure.

Yeah, for sure. All right. Thank you, Bruce. So anything else? We're done, right? On this? And we're going to approve the minutes of the previous meeting. God, that was so long.

I'll make a motion. We approve the minutes of the previous meeting.

Second. All in favor?

Aye.

Minutes are approved. Any other business? Nothing?

Just out of curiosity, everybody read the minutes from the previous meeting? I did. Where do we get those? Online. They're online, huh? Internet. Internet. Yeah, I got it. All right.

Yeah, I can show you how to find it.

No, I know where it is. So why is it the Summer Fun Day poster on the town website?

Which one? The events thing? Because it gets on Visit Island Pond.

Why is there no cross-linking?

Why is it so hard to find these things? Typically, the town's website is for official town business. It's not for our tourist-driven kind of stuff.

That seems short-sighted. Or have a link, at least.

We do share it through the Facebook page. We don't tend to put it on the website because people are there looking for zoning permit applications, and they don't really want to slog through all of our events, but... If you guys think we should cross-promote it, I will draw one.

Just a page of links to other things about Island Pond.

Yep, good idea.

Trust me, the town website needs such a redo.

Ask Katie. Her and I just hate that thing.

Somebody else put that together and they changed the theme on it. And so like adding a post to the homepage is like impossible. You actually have to go in and do this, customize the theme thing. It's absolutely ridiculous. But in the grand scheme of everything we're working on, it's just not a top priority. Not a top priority.

So many irons in the fire.

I make a motion we turn it.

All in favor?

Aye. Motion adjourned.