Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Um, we have a quorum. I'd like to bring the meeting to order. Um, first up is the update agenda. Anybody have anything? Um, Allison will not be here. I didn't find any meetings about order in the next six days. Is this me? Who is this? Let's turn them all on. And my watch is telling me I don't have a meeting for another six months or something. Oh, good. That's right. Okay. All right. Nothing for the update agenda. So, next is the public comment which nobody's on. I can talk. Okay. Can I use public?

What's up? No, never mind. Um, so we have next Joel, you had that CO certificate of occupancy discussion we were going to have. Uh, sure. Maybe not. Um, so did you did you make copies for everybody? No, I need I couldn't figure out which one it was supposed to be on this on my um phone that I was saving stuff. Um, Mike, do you have that by any chance? Um, is it Did you send it to me? I can.

If you can forward it over real quick, I can put it on screen. It'll be easier if you just send me what you're looking for as opposed to me looking for looking for it. What's this project?

Um, so we can talk about the town plan though. I mean, I did talk with Allison. I spent a good hour with her on the phone on Friday and NVDA, all of their staff had to cancel all their meetings because they got um certain towns are not happy with the housing targets or their um maps for uh land use. And that all has to be submitted to the land review board and they have a huge deadline for it. So that is why she is not here. Um

um can you say a little bit more about that if you know like they're not how are they not happy with the targets? They don't want to build more houses.

Yeah. At least I I mean I was I was in one board meeting where one of the members was absolutely their town is absolutely opposed to any development and so they want all of their land to show on the land use maps that it's conservation land and not not available for development which the state is never going to approve. That is not that that's not what what their their map is even for. But that's what they were they were completely tied up with that and I guess the housing targets are the same. It's you know people don't want that many houses developed. Well, you know they they have to spread the the land you the housing targets have to be spread across the northeast kingdom. So you can't say everything's going to be built in downtown Newport because there's not enough room in downtown Newport to build them all or downtown St. Johnsbury. So they did spread them across all towns. I mean, we we have a lofty target. Um, you know, I believe for by 2030 we're supposed to be 53 housing units and I forget what 2050 was. Um, and I mean, and you know, they're that's why they're pushing us to look at, you know, infill opportunities, multi-unit dwellings, stuff like that. And there is no real repercussion for not meeting those targets. You know, that's that's a target. What we have to make sure of is that our zoning and our town plan supports that we could develop 53 units. You know, that we're not discouraging it, which is what some of these towns are trying to do. They're trying to discourage growth. And the state says that, you know, that they're not going to approve that. I mean, if you want all of the benefits that go along with with all of the the land planning, you have to accept growth. Um,

oh, I I think they should be allowed to reject it if they want, but that's a whole other discussion

because well, they they can't reject the maps because that impacts every other town in the Northeast Kingdom. And it's really important for us because if that map does not get approved by the state by the deadline, every one of the small towns that is a village center designation, we lose it and we have to start from square one applying all over again. And that's huge tax credits availability for all the the businesses and everything in town. We get a lot of benefit out of the village center designation and we will be grandfathered in so long as that land use map gets approved. If it does not, we get thrown out along with almost every other town in the Northeast Kingdom. The only two towns that would be eligible still, well actually maybe three would be Hardwick, St. Johnsbury, and Newport. I think they're the only ones that are designated downtowns. um because they went through a I mean we we looked at doing that but we don't have the zoning for downtown designation. Um it requires you know a a board of people to you know do uh historical and um architectural review and stuff like that which we don't we don't have that and I don't know that we could get that to pass in town even if we if we could. Um,

on a related note, uh, somebody might be buying the pit in downtown Newport finally. Yeah. And that that could be a lovely mixed use with a whole bunch of units on the second and third floors.

Yeah. Well, Newport has some hefty targets. Heft Newport has big targets. I mean, and so what what Allison I mean, I I'll talk about, you know, Katie and I were talking about this earlier today, and you know, something that we were thinking about, you know, when we're thinking about adding housing units, we're we're thinking about young families and, you know, houses and stuff like that. But, you know, what we really probably could use more of is Sunrise Manners. You know, if you look at our population, it's aging. So, you know, maybe that should be something that we might want to put a little blurb about in the town plan is that, you know, developing a second facility like that. I mean, there's a waiting list to get in Sunrise Manor forever.

And, you know, that that's 20 units there. So, we add another building like that, that's 20 units of our 53 unit goal. So, um I think that's something, you know, the planning commission should consider when they're when they're working on the the town plan. Um because it's something we need. You know, we we could put nursing homes in there. I mean, we right now you have to go to Newport and getting in there is almost impossible as well. Um it's not something I thought about. I hadn't really thought about town, you know, pursuing that as its growth potential, but you know, we don't really have factories and stuff for employment. So, you know, if we kind of could come become a magnet for that kind of population, it's it's still population growth and it's just different. Um, what Allison suggested you guys might want to talk about tonight since she's not here is so we have these housing goals. And you know, when you look in our town plan, what do we want to put in there about our infrastructure and its ability to handle that kind of growth? Can it handle it? Where can it handle it? Um because I mean our our that section in our town plan has to be updated as well because I was looking at it earlier. It still talks about the static law

for our water operator and the equipment. We don't own any of that stuff anymore. So, can I go back to the elderly h? Is there um Derby Street? I'm not I'm not going to name anything or whatever, but um that would be a place where you could put elderly, right? I wouldn't I don't see why not. I mean, I don't I guess does our zoning prohibited anywhere? I don't think so. Well, that's but No, I wouldn't think so, but we could fix that. But doesn't the state mandate supersede single family zoning?

Uh, depends on what exactly you're talking about. We can we can apply stricter standards than the state standards in certain cases, but we can't be in like shoreland protection. If shoreline protection for instance says controls within 250 ft, but if we have a zoning bylaw that says we control the 30 ft, then we control the 30 ft. But it can't be something that contradicts state law. It's a it's a touchandgo. It depends on the situation, right? I mean, you'd still have to be able to meet setbacks and stuff like that. I mean, I know some of those lots are kind of wonky and weird and um,

you know, we have to make sure we can meet flood flood hazard and all those kinds of things, but it's it's certainly something to look at. I mean, Derby Street does I mean, Derby Street, Railroad Street, any of those. Where's the land? Where's the land that you're I'm not mentioning. I'm not No, I'm just saying I can't something that's

actually, you know, even you guys looked at the infill properties around town. I mean, I was thinking, you know, you guys looked at the one all that land that sits behind like the Oldtown garage, you know, okay, well, that wouldn't be a bad area. It's got water and sewer accessible to it and, you know, or up on South Street or, you know, any of those are are would be eligible lots that you could put something on. It may not be as big as Sunrise Manor, but you could probably do a couple of them around town, but you're back to the land owner, right? Right. I mean, and and that's just it, you know, none of this we control. You know, we don't we're not the developer of this stuff unless it would have

water and sewer. I mean, there are there are programs with the state. You know, we could use the CHIP program to bring water and sewer to a a lot that does not have it. Um, and so because I mean I I think that would be a program that we could use um if it would help somebody develop Is that cheaper and faster than us um doing a tax foreclosure? You can only do a tax foreclosure if somebody doesn't pay their taxes, right? Well, that the house behind mine is in that situation, I seem to recall, and it was it went up for auction and nobody bought it.

Yeah. Twice. And that case, the town could purchase it, but we'd want to make sure that we weren't purchasing a liability or too much of a liability. I mean, if the town bought it, they could raise it and put it up for development. No problem there. Well, and that might be faster and cheaper than a lot of the other options.

And and certainly something I think the town will look at when we do the next tax sale. I think we will look at some of these properties have been hanging around for a long time and you know is it is it something that we we couldn't use for for something beneficial for town you know if people aren't willing to buy it and fix it on their own you know does the town at some point decide yeah well we want to get it back I mean they're not paying taxes on it anyway we're not earning any you know we're not making anything off that property sitting there just but it puts us in control the land. Right. Right. And the land is the key to anything. So, well,

it's still one of those things that, you know, if the town takes it over, I believe you still have the the year waiting period. So, you know, you're you can take you can take over a piece of property, you can take over a piece of property, but

when it comes down to the nitty-gritty, you got to start tearing it down. And now the federal government's involved. You got to get permits because it now it's the the town is considered a different entity than a private sale, but you know, you have to do asbestous removal. You got to do all this stuff and that gets pretty expensive for some people that don't follow the law and they get caught. It's a $50,000 fine because they didn't remove the asbestous and they were supposed to or or separate the sheet metal from the the asbestous shingles. And you know that that gets to be Is there a house? What? This property you're talking is there a house? Yeah. So it needs to be torn down. Whose house is that? I don't know.

We don't The thing is we don't even know that. We don't know. Anything pre Yeah. It may not even have any of that. Anything pre-1978 has to be tested for asbestous and have it removed before you can remove the building. Right. But we may not even The thing is the building might not need to be removed. I don't even know what condition the building the garage is not good. the building. Last time I was in it was fine. I mean, I was I was in there years ago, but um

and and a lot of times it's cheaper to tear the thing down and rebuild something new than going through refurbishing a building that's half rotted and doesn't meet today's specs for insulation because they got 2x4 walls and not 2x6 and it just it just it just a balloon effect that just keeps on going. Well, it's just something that we just need to look into, right?

It's something we would look at and we would look at that as part of the CHIP program because the CHIP program covers that kind of cost, too. If we can put something that will actually generate more revenue for the town than what it makes off of the current use of it, you know, you get you get to take that for the next 30 years. You get that tax revenue goes to the town to pay any debt that goes with fixing up the property. So whether that's bringing water and sewer or maybe removing an old building, it's it's something we could look at. I mean, the new program is new. It's just opening. So um but um would the town buy would the town buy the property on Derby Street?

It would just be the owner. No, the one I'm talking about. No, it would be a private. The one I'm talking about? I don't know what you're talking about. I know. Well, I I am just talking because I have talked to people and I'm not even talking about the property. I I and talking about putting another ely housing project on Derby Street, right? Property. Are you talking about the sisters? No. Okay. That's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Derby Street that Nick and I had talked about and he's got the warning letter and stuff going now. But that's a piece of property that you could tear down and there's a lot right there as well because that's eventually gonna

Right. But that's that's I don't think they're behind on their taxes. So, it's not something the town is going to take over. It's, you know, so long as they pay the property taxes on it, the town No, because they have to they have to fix that up. They have to board it up. They have to make it safe. They can't just leave it like that for us to look at. They There's a whole thing in in there what they have to do, right? Nick Nick told them that they had to do all this stuff, you know, do it or fix it up or tear it down, whatever. If they don't do it, it's a zoning violation. And I I find it hard to believe that she's got the money to really clean that lot up like we want her to do.

We're going to end we're going to end up saying, "Okay, well, if you won't clean it up, we're going to clean it up and we're going to take it off, put a lean on the property, and get paid back that way." That would be how I would typically think that would happen. And that could stay that could stay like that for another 20 years. No. No. If at least the town bought if the town bought it, it better tear it down. If they made her tear it down, I don't think it would be good the town to buy it and then not tear it. But if but if they if you put a lean on it and they're still paying the taxes, you you can't even there is zoning violation. So they have to pay they have to pay the whatever how many day you know 30 days or whatever

believe that at some point the lean exceeds the value of the property and then you can foreclose them. That's right. Right. It's just long messy legal but messy thing. How long will it take if we wait 10 years? So I'm I'm just 10 years. Okay. So, I just So, there's two sisters. One of them has passed and the other one is in a nursing home. Well, I don't know if they left this. They're leaving this to anybody after I mean, whoever they leave it to like So, I don't know what's going to happen with that after she passes might be the fastest. They leave it to someone who wants nothing to do with it. They sell it for

Well, that's what I'm saying. I mean, that might be I I mean, I don't know if they're leaving it to somebody and they're like, "Oh, 30 days to answer." So, you know, they tell Nick that then, you know, so Nick is um we're started the process. Okay. All right. Well, let's go from there then. Yeah. Just takes time. That's right. Yeah. Yep. Yep. So, as far as the the targets, I would think that what we have to do is we just have to not stand in the way of of what people want to do that's legitimate by the law. So, Right. Right. It's not that we have to go develop them. Right. Right. No, no,

those towns, if those towns don't want to comply, they could try to stand in the way of somebody who wants to add uh another dwelling to their lot, which the law, state law now allows. If they did that, they could be taken to court and they'd lose, you know, amounts to. And I would probably they would any grants they apply for they wouldn't get. Okay, that's the that's how that would work. But I don't think as long as we don't counter the state law on this, we're going to be fine. And I don't think

I don't I mean because I asked Allison that I said, you know, is there is there any like if we don't meet these targets, you know, what's going to happen to us? Are we are we getting slapped around? Are we you know, and she, you know, and she agreed that no, that's not that's not how it's, you know, this is a target. You know, this is a goal. And I I think it's lofty. I mean, 53 units for Brighton in six, you know, four years. That's a lot. Insane. Yeah. I mean, we're never going to hit that. Never. I mean, four years, you're you're not even going to develop a new property in that amount of time. Um,

but we zoning zoning. If we get three, four dwellings a year, that's a lot. Depends on the economy, too. It does. It does. I mean, short of some major change, I just can't see that that happening. Um, yeah. If only we had some land. Well, we have the we have the Moe's Wood lot, 70 acres. Where is that? Um, off of Pleasant Street or actually off road. Yeah. Oh, okay. I thought we had 800 acres. Well, that's water land,

right? Right. But we own the Moves Woodland, which is the town owns. That's that was just a camp up there. And we have the town forest, another 70 or to 100 acre parcel up off Mountain Street. That's the town's forest, not the water departments. But the water department has what, 400 on Bluff Mountain and 400 on Pleasant Street. Correct. you know, the Moswood property, you know, if we wanted to look at the thing is I don't know how we would do water and sewer up to there because I think that's part of the chip program requirement. It is has to be served by water and sewer. I won't swear to that, but yeah, but I mean you can bring it there, right? Like um

like I Joel when we went or Annie when we went and saw that property I'm not going to mention names that you thought that you could just go across the road and serve you know who I'm talking about. Um so I mean that would be okay right? It's Richard Richard's property. Yes. Yes. Okay. Yeah. No. No. I was think most wood is is up on top of a hill. I mean it's way up. Right, right, right, right. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, because you'd have to br That's a far That's Yeah, but this would be just across the road. I think water would be no problem, right? That's what I'm saying. So,

sewer is Well, I think their big thing is water, right? I thought it was water and sewer. Is it water and sewer or just water? I am not I have to I'll have to go back and look at I I haven't paid much attention to that chip program since since town meeting or I thought it was both water and I might be wrong but I thought it water and sewer because around the lake not everybody has water but not

that's correct right and I was looking at that program you know if we could put some development at the end of it then it pays you know that that chip program would cover the cost for running the sewer. all the way around the lake then and then you would, you know, pick up all those properties which would make our sewer system way more financially solvent viable. Yep. Yep. And then all those people could pay more.

Well, it's still cheaper than big, you know, digging a septic and doing all that. What that would lead to would be that the lots the lot sizes on the lake could be diminished because now they're have to be big enough to handle a septic system which means they have to be at least 200 ft away from the residence. So we the sewer system so that's why the lot sizes are what they are now. If we didn't have to worry about sewers contaminating, septic tanks contaminating, we could reduce the lot size and sell more lots on the lake, which I think would happen naturally. I don't think we'd have to motivate that. I think that would just happen.

And that's kind of what the CHIP program plans for is that, okay, then the property value because all of a sudden instead of one house on this lot, you've got three houses on this lot. And the the value of those three houses is way more than the value of that one house on one lot. And so property tax revenue goes up and that's that's the that's how that program is supposed to work. You know how close those uh houses are on on Derby Pond or Lake Salem when you go up there and look down on your way to Newport. Good God. They're right next to each other. Yeah.

I mean I don't know if we want that. I mean that's another question. Do we do we want that? That would be so, but that's what putting a sewer around the lake would lead to. And by the way, we already have a plan that's already been looked into where there's a whole study that to look just at that what it would take to do that. It would take mountain systems. We'd have to purchase land uh down on the lake south end of the lake. We'd have to purchase some lots to put mound systems on is how I remember that. Could be done though. There was a way. just money.

So, you want to go to you want to go to the checklist now? You ready to go talk about certificate of occupy? Come on. Ready? Yes, please. Let's do it. Uh oh. Did you get that yet, Mike? Hold on. Let me go look. I wasn't wasn't paying attention. You were busy. I don't think my house has a certificate of occupancy. I got mine, but mine doesn't. It's just always been there.

Well, they didn't used to have I mean, for years they just didn't do them. What happens as as I was telling Annie is it the certificate of occupancy is they have to apply for it when they're done and people just there's no way people can remember and we continually get requests for for certificates of occupancy during the title search when it turns up that they're supposed to have one and they don't then they want one right away because they're closing tomorrow. So we've tried to to handle that by making them pay for the certificate of occup occupancy upfront so that they might better remember that didn't work either and it was administratively difficult. Uh so but now this checklist when you look at it it's going to have to we're going to have to start uh complying with this. Um, so it's going to mean that the the zoning administrator is going to somehow have to figure out uh when they're complete. So what I'm what I'm thinking the way this is going to have to happen maybe is that we're going to change the zoning bylaw to say that projects have to be substantially complete, which is a phrase that we use in build big projects, and it has to have a definition. uh buildings must be substantially projects must be substantially complete in two years whatever period of time we want

and at that point the zoning administrator goes out and checks it uh otherwise he's going out every month to see how far along they are so you know we don't want to really add to the burden that's the only way I can see that but the before also in this checklist now before any permit can be issued the zoning administrator needs to see a um a if it's not on a town highway, if it's like on 105 going out of town, going out of the village, uh if if they need a if they're there, they need to show that they have a state highway access permit, which I'm don't know if the state enforces that that much or not, but now we're going to need to see it. And we're going to need to see um we normally need to see driveway access permits. We're going to have to see wastewater permits. So, it seems like an extra little bit of work for the zone administrator is coming around

is what's what my concern is. And I just want everybody to understand this is it's going to mean another whole step in the process. And if the zoning administrator goes out and it's not complete, then that starts a whole new process. you know, it's a then it's a zoning violation and you know, so it's it's going to be a change that's going to be I think not fun to deal with.

I think we're going to find that the state some of these requirements they're putting on like now zoning administrators they've done with listers. You know, we're going to basically have to hire staff to do all of these jobs. They're no longer going to be these appointed positions that, you know, I mean, they're going to be real jobs in these towns. I don't think that you're going to just be able to get somebody off the street to do these things. Yeah. So, I you know, we don't have to go over this whole list tonight, but you know, there's a few things in there that are going to pertain and that we've already addressed, but there are some things that we haven't yet addressed in this list um in the new zoning bylaw revisions.

Still, can we get a copy of that? Because there's no way that I can read that. Yeah. I can send it to you. Okay. Thank you. Email. All right. Hold on. Let me see. I can Can we all have it? No, just me. Okay. I can send it to everybody if I have your email address. I have it already. Joel, don't make me come over to your house. Get him a copy.

I mean, we we we can go down this list a little bit. Uh the second thing on there is the state highway access permits. That's what I mentioned already. We have to have those in hand.

Uh the shoreland protection act. We just have to tell people that that exists. And and again, we can be if if they allow if we if they don't mention something and we don't want it to happen, our bylaw would apply. If they don't care and we have a bylaw, then our bylaw applies. We don't have uh on this. We have like a few ponds. McConnell pond, Beecher Pond, uh uh Island Pond, of course, and Spec Pond. I'm not sure if there's any others, but we don't have a lot of activity on any of those except Beer. Uh this we still have exemptions for agricultural practices. Uh we don't have a lot of flood hazard areas that we have to worry about. The only real flood hazard area we have is on Meadow Street that's that's have any chance of development is on Meadow in the Meadow Street area which floods on rail behind Railroad Street. that whole area. That's the only area that we have. And um modifies protections for group homes and residential care homes. um on the on the flood hazard thing. The other thing that um uh Allison was telling me was that you know up until now you could basically if you so long as you didn't raise the land level more than a foot in a flood plane you could fill before you built and that is going to be changing. If you if you alter the flood plane at all you have to put the same amount of capacity in somewhere else. Right. That's that's my issue there, Webster Brook. But um here,

uh fill in fill in a foot over here. You got to take a foot over there away. The water has to have some place to go. If you fill it, if you fill it in, the water has no place to go. Right? And then it finds a new place to go downstream. So most of these places that are doing that are these flood plane areas are wetlands anyway. So that's another whole thing anyways. You can't you can't touch wetlands. Unless you got a exemption from the pulp,

right? Um here's modifies protections um for group homes and residential care homes by eliminating the provision that allowed a municipality's land use regulations to require that such facilities be separated by at least 1,000 ft. Now, a residential care home or group home operated under state licensing or registration serving up to eight disabled persons. Oh, that's not I thought we were talking about uh what Jean was talking about. Elderly. Yep.

I don't know how many of those kind of homes they do anymore. I mean, I worked in that field a long time ago. We were eliminating eight bed group homes back then. So I don't know how many of those even exist. So seems to me like it might be a rule that's looking for

nothing. Um, we're going to we already I I always required even though I didn't have a lot of legal backing for it, when somebody wanted to subdivide property, they had to have a survey because if we don't have a survey, we can't we can't transfer that information to our tax map. So when this formalizes it, we can and that's a change we'll put into our zoning bylaws that surveys will be required. Um yes, existing small lots that came up. Nick called me about that. uh you can't prohibit the development of lots that connect that can connect to water and sewer infrastructure even if they are less than an eighth of an acre which is 5,000 square 5,000 square feet give or take. Um the existing bylaws sets a minimum you know you can you can develop two small lots that are too small by your zoning standards as long as they're not less than an eighth of an acre. This changes that if they can if they can connect to water and sewer. And it this law also says when when you're deciding whether something can connect to water or sewer,

you can't say, "Well, they're not connected." If they could reasonably connect, you have to treat it as if they can connect. That might mean additional additional development of the lot of the you know extending the piping but our our ordinance our sewer ordinance has a clause for that as well. So but that's something we'll have to watch if it existing small lots and anything that can connect to water and sewer is very loosely defined. So, um it's hard to deny somebody. It'll be hard to deny somebody if they're close.

So, what about if um they can connect to water but not sewer because the sewer is not available but the water is. I think for certain parts of this law, for most of this new law, it has to be both. Our bylaw though has a clause in it for water for water or sewer or sewer. I think it's 200 feet. Who pays?

Yeah, it's it's lot sizes change. It's a class system. So that if your lot has has sewer, it can be it can be smaller. I mean, if it has if it has, you know, a municipal sewer, it it can be smaller. If it has private sewer, it can't be smaller because you have to keep that 200 f feet. But this is this is, you know, when you somebody comes in like somebody did and it's there, they want to develop the uh the lot on Lakeshore Drive. It's a very narrow lot. Um, and it's connected to water, but not sewer. Um, but it is too small. But it's not this this lets them off the hook. Even if they're smaller than an eighth of an acre, they still have to meet setbacks. It could it can be developed like any other lot, but any other lot has to meet setbacks. So that lot's only 40t wide, and we have a 30 foot setback. So they can't meet that. So they would have to apply for a variance from the DRB. That's how that would have to work,

right? So, is that something that we're saying that that person that we're talking about because we talked about it before has we have to say it has to go to the DRB now or what are we saying on that? They they wanted a guarantee. The person wants to buy the lot, but they want to know if they can build add a garage uh to the lot and before they buy it. and they won't don't want to buy it if they can't be sure that they'll do that and they I'm sorry it's a DRB question because they'll need a variance and DRB can't give them a answer ahead of time until they hear the case. So I don't know what's going to happen but that's the way that works. Here we are next to Neil and Pam.

What do they want to put a garage? Um, who pays for the water and sewer extension? Uh, normally the people who the people who want it. Yeah. Okay. So, if there was a development, the developer would have to cover that cost. Where would they put the hide the house? Because it's ugly. Um, yeah. No, no paramilitary camps if we don't want them. They were selling it. They are. But she wants to buy it if a stipulation that she can garage and

I I told Nick we can't guarantee anything. They're going to have to Isn't it as well the abutters might not want it as well? Do they have a say? The abutters would get notice if they apply for a variance to the DRB. the DRB would send notice to all the abutters and they would have an opportunity to comment, you know, so you know, there's there's certainly no guarantee that they could do this. You know, it's if that's what they're looking for, they're not going to get it. Why? They're not far back enough. I mean, I don't understand the garage is 30. So, they don't have the variance on either side. 10 feet. Oh,

it's 30 feet all the way around. Yeah, except the front is 50 feet. Yep. From the street. Oh, you know that you saw that. Well, if you're going to build a standalone building, it has to be 50 ft from the street. So, that's another variance. Oh, yeah. Yeah. If you build if you park a trailer on it, then doesn't matter. Oh, they want a garage. What kind of What kind of trailer? One that's not considered a building. They're all considered No, they're all considered a building. They have to meet the variances. it. I mean, they're slowly bringing this up to Hawaii. Has every single nitpick. If they

thing if it is, it's crazy. They say, "Well, it's on wheels. We can move it." Well, you haven't moved it in 10 years, so yeah, it's They parked the trailer there for for two months, we probably wouldn't notice it, you know. But once we once it seems to grow grass around it and everything, right? You can't move it anymore because the tires are hidden. it. Yeah. The Hawaiian rule includes a a clause about unless the trailer is a primai um moving like if you have a coffee a coffee stand on a truck. Mhm. My coffee stand, you know, that's obviously not parked and becoming a building. That's right. It's getting,

but you know, if you have a school bus, then after you paint that school bus, because a school bus can only be school bus yellow when it's being used as a school bus. Mhm. They got that in there. I mean, you wouldn't believe. All right.

Um, a lot of these are, you know, this by right approvals of housing projects. A lot of the clauses in here are meant to keep us keep towns from unreasonably unreasonably restricting housing is how I see a lot of these and we don't have any concern. We're not trying to restrict additional housing at all. So, uh there's a clause when they do site plan review which the planning commission doesn't do anymore but the DRB does. uh you can't when you're considering the character of the area, you have to be you can't you can't be too restrictive when you do that. Um um subdivision regulations, we're going to have those in the new bylaw. uh if because we want to have the benefit of the act 250 uh benefit that it gets even if we may never use it but good to have. Um here's the clause served by water and so by sewer and water this is where you'll see what that can be taken to mean available is not fine. I mean, if it I I would think that if there was like a housing development went in, let's say on head of the pond road just past the turn to Lakeshore Drive, if somebody put a housing development in there within 500 ft, maybe I think that that we would have to, by the way, we would have to probably say that they can be connected to water and sewer because all it take is dig it up and put it in there,

but they would have to pay for um emergency shelter. That's where the chip program comes in because the idea is that developers won't pay for that. And so here's a way that it can get paid for to encourage development, right?

Because you know, you'd be running water and sewer from all the way down Pleasant Street. So you're you're adding it so all those houses on Pleasant Street could connect. Yeah. And about three pump stations just fine. Um I don't know there's anything else that stands out. Parking requirements. We've already changed that. We're we we can't demand as many parking spaces in residential units as we used to. Um cuz that re that doesn't promote increased density. Now, you know, people can look over this list. It's there's a lot to it, but I'm glad Allison sent it to us because it it really we're going to have to make some changes, especially in that CO. But I you know what do you I I just don't see the zoning administrator driving around all the time have you filed your your CEO yet? Have you filed your CEO yet? At some point that you know we'll we'll change like I said my suggestion is to just say projects must be substantially complete and we have to have a definition of that within two years. substantially complete. You know, I don't know how to define that, but I guess when I think of it, was it does it have final siding on it?

I've seen a definition. It doesn't have final. What's that? I'm sorry. I've seen a definition. I don't remember where, but it said uh yeah, I'm sure we could secure perimeter um doors and windows flooring surface. Um, but things like your kitchen cabinets didn't have to be a Right. Yeah. The house has to be basically built. Yeah. Yeah. It has to be a complete shell that you can lock. That's correct. Yeah. Roof, everything. Right. Yeah.

Now, now siding is the question, I guess, is if if the building's all put up there, but the people haven't put their siding on yet. Is that substantially complete? I mean, it's a shell. They can live in it. Right. Right. Did queen do something with weather tight or something of that kind of Maybe that is their sighting. Well, or it's just that you've seen you've seen houses with with um Tyveck paper on the outside for you know 10 years. Right. Exactly. I resemble that remark. code. He's got

Yeah. Anyway, that would be something we'd have to do. We'd have to figure that part out. But that seems to make the most sense to me. But this is going to mean more work for Nick to be checking with these people and make sure have they all have their permits and then to keep track later on, you know, two years down the line, you know, check to check back. It's going to, you know, if we change zoning administrators, we could fall behind. So, there's going to have to be a process. Seems to me that

it does seem like they're on a calendar of some sort that, you know, kind of is perpetual. And, you know, there's certain times of the year you're going to go out and inspect, you know, quarterly or every six months or something like that. You're not going to do it on a rolling basis. And then if they haven't applied for it, then he's going to have to call them up and say, "Hey, where's your CO application? It's just, you know, more stuff to do, which is the way of things, it seems." And

that's all I have to say. Just read these things and you'll get a good sense of what'll be going on because all these things are going to have to be incorporated. Any other discussion? Excuse me. We good? Okay, moving along. We've got the zoning bylaw discussion. Short-term rentals is Did everybody get a chance to want to share their opinion? Uh, as far as from the next like I my thing is like how do we enforce it? Okay. Oh, well I' I'd start before that with what are we trying to enforce exactly,

right? Are we are we is this a uh I I don't want us to end up with a can of worms like East Burke is going through with right now. Burke isn't. Oh, yes, they are. I just I read all their minutes of the 25 and there it's coming along. It's it's No, but they want to control the the short-term rentals. They get the Well, they have to inspect. We don't have that. We don't have that. Oh, they have they have a big a different big problem with the skiers because all the ski areas have condos that were built to be run like hotels. They're and they've been run like hotels and they the state and everybody else has agreed that they should be taxed like hotels because they're functionally hotels, right?

Well, here comes the, you know, the select board saying, "Well, we think those might be short-term rentals." And the resort operators are like, "If you make these short-term rentals, we will go bankrupt." Right. Yeah. There's a big to-do going on over there. So, a lot of a lot of arguing, but that's fine. I I'm not arguing that I want them. You don't have any. We're cool. Something to talk about. I think just leave things well enough alone right now. How many are there? I mean, how many short-term I mean, Airbnbs do you think here in town? Yeah. I did a 20 maybe. No. Well, I did the Airbnbs and VBOs and I didn't do Craigslist or anything, but then there's private people. There was about 30

30 and it could be, you know, it I'm not even saying that. I just thought that if we had something like this, even a something that maybe down the line as an ordinance or something. I mean, you never know. I mean, this town is like I know. Well, I know you were talking, you know, charging what what are they charging? $25. What is it? Okay. So, short-term is 45 and 30. This is what Burke's doing. Okay. And but you you had mentioned you had your apartments, right? They're not uh they're leased like yearly, right? They're I don't have short-term. Yeah. So, you're not that's not so leases. So, it's it's like it's I don't understand why the um short-term is 45 and the long term is 35, but

and you have to do it every year. I mean, if you read the you know, the bylaws in here how they're handling it. Um,

I mean it isn't. So you're talking So you're talking $980 a year. Why? It's only what? You got to do every It's one building. I don't think if you're on leases. What? You're not No, no, I'm talking about the short term. And you said there's like 30 of them. Oh, okay. So you I don't know if it's short or long. I didn't know. No, whatever. So I went 45 time 30 and you get 900 and what? 950 9 1350. Okay. Whatever it is. Okay. So is it really worth for us to have someone going into all these buildings for $1,300 a year and checking to make sure they have all their

If you had somebody fulltime Well, I get it. But we don't have that. And don't have that. We don't Right. And we're not going to pay somebody,000 a year. We ain't going to get anybody for $20,000. Well, whatever. It would be just one, you know, whatever it was, you know. I mean, that's all they had to do. You're lucky you got a part-time zoning administrator. Well, I get it. I'm just I'm just I I'm just saying it would be most most communities that I know one community that's got 9,000 people. They got a they got a a building inspector, a zoning administrator, that the same person, two different persons. And then they start at 60 and 70,000. And I get it. That's what I'm saying. So for $1,300 a year, is it really worth it?

Probably not. Tell your stories. I mean, I don't know. I'm going to just read one thing that's here. Okay. I'm just neutral. So they're just saying the purpose of having the Airbnbs or whatever. The purpose of this ordinance is to promote and protect the public health, safety, welfare, and convenience of the town, to preserve residents rights to quiet enjoyment of homes and properties, and to ensure the safety of long-term rentals. Well, that's what's happened in North Conway, New Hampshire, Conway. Yeah. I'm going to say they got hundreds of Airbnbs.

And the the biggest they they're passing laws now because they're wild parties. People are parking in the street. They got no room for the cars to go down the street. And it's just gotten so out of hand with fireworks going off all day and all night long. And it's just gotten so bad that uh they've they're getting some strict rules and regulations now. Right. And uh I don't know how they're going to stop it now. They're way beyond they're way beyond the point of no return. Right. But the thing right and they have no one to enforce it. Oh. Oh. Not right now. I mean, they have to have somebody right now. The cops are trying to enforce

the the noise ordinances, but they don't have the manpower, right? There's a big big radical in well that thing. It's like who going to get to pay for say if it gets to $2,000 a year. I'm sure if

I mean Joel, have you got any complaints about these Airbnbs and anything? Mike? No, not not really. No, we haven't. I mean, if you wanted to do this, it could be done with a zoning permit. You could, you know, it could be Airbnb could become a use. And if somebody decided they wanted to rent out their garage to an Airbnb, that would be a change of use permit. And then you could attach some provisions for what Airbnbs would require, some minimal requirements, and it just be like a zoning permit. But if you wanted to get like Burke's doing though, you need somebody to you need somebody who's like and they need to be qualified.

But then we were talking about the whatever it's like these people that are renting need to have insurance. Mhm. Because if something if they don't have insurance and they're not telling their insurance company they're renting that out, something goes wrong, they are not covered. Oh no. No. That's up to them. They may lose their home on it. That's a problem. So we can redevelop it, right? Exactly. Thank you. It's not your point. That was my point. Anyway,

I can I can say, you know, from the from the town manager perspective, you know, we need we we need staff in town, but we don't need this position. I mean, we really we have so many other needs beyond putting a person that this is another job that they have to do. We can't get anybody to run for any of these boards. We're not going to find anybody to do this job unless we're going to pay good money for it. I I wonder if we could add it as a use on the list of uses, permitted or conditional uses, and then say that the applicant must show an approved inspection from the state or something like that is just like

there are no inspections from the state for it. the health department the health department I mean Beth's the health department or health officer used to have to be in charge of of rental inspections had the authority but they took that away but somebody's got that authority to make sure rentals in Vermont are done right so yeah but they're probably for long term it's probably

the only thing that the fire state fire marshall's office is in charge of is anything more than two rental units in a Once you hit that third one, the state gets a call and they have to make sure that it's all done according to code. But if you've got a building and it's a second floor apartment, a first floor apartment, and you don't, and the landlord doesn't live there, the state has no control over that building until you hit that number three. Once it gets to the third apartment, then the state walks in and they're going to tell you what to do. I know. I've been through that. Yeah.

Ask for what would we even want if we said, you know, we want people to get, you know, a special permit for Airbnb. What would the requirements be? Would they have to have just smoke alarms or or what? What would I That's state law already, right? That and their insurance their insurance company is going to make them do that anyway. Oh, yes. And if they're not telling their insurance company that they're not renting their units, then they are not covered. And if they The thing is, they're not going to tell us that they're renting it out either.

I mean, you know, then it's so it's so then we run into the conundrum of okay, if they have a busy body neighbor that's that's angry about it, they're going to get reported constantly. Well, the guy down the street who doesn't have that kind of neighbor gets by with it forever. Yeah. I mean, it's it's one of those I I just don't think it's something we want to go down that road for. I don't think we need to do it yet. I I just don't think we're at that point either. I I agree on that. We only have about

most communities that you're talking about, they have the building inspector, electrical inspector, plumbing inspector. So, when you do something like what you're saying, uh, they're supposed to tell the town and then the town comes in, they they'll send the fire department over to make sure you've got the required smoke detectors. That's one of them. That's one of the items. Uh, and it and then the permits, the permits that are involved and but we you don't have the personnel here. Who are you going to send? Right. So, the fire is not the fire department. No, that's the state.

Oh, that's fire marshal. What I think we should do is put something in the town plan about this. We should at least have a paragraph saying, you know, we address this and that the planning commission considers this as something that we should at least think about so that if six years from now somebody wants to we find a need to do it, we have the backing in the town plan to do it to change the zoning. I agree. I agree. Yep. That kind of, you know, saves us a, you know, of not having nothing. And if we want to go back to it, we can't change the town plan, right, once it's done. You can, but it's a process.

Then it should definitely be. Yeah. For eight years, but you can. Doesn't the state have to get involved in any changes to the town plan? NVDA, I think, does the NVDA? Not Not really. NVDA. We can have whatever town plan we want, but if we want it confirmed and have a legal standing, it has to go through the regional planning commission, which is NVDA. Yes. Right. That's why Allison is helping us because she'll make sure we have a plan that will pass muster. Yeah.

Good. Good. All right. I mean, we may not see it in our lifetime, but these things that we're talking about, all these people that have to inspect, it's a way of life for a lot of people in the United States. I mean, just to give you an example, I have a friend of mine that owns his father's house, father died, and he owns a place in Florida. Well, he wants to put in new windows. Most places that I know of in New Hampshire, you don't need a permit to change existing windows with the same size window. you're not changing the building itself. He had 17 pages he had to fill out in the state of Florida to change the windows in his father's house. And then he belongs to a um

HLA HOA. So there was five more sheets involved in that and and and he says by the time I'm going to get permission to start this, summer's going to be over, he says. and they sent me to they sent me to one place to get the permit. Then I had to drive 15 miles to the other place to fill out some paperwork. And he says that he spent two weeks on this while he was down there at his father's place. He spent, you know, Larry. Larry. Oh, Larry. Yep.

Yeah. He spent two weeks down there doing all this paperwork. Yeah. Had to be a certain window that's shatterproof because of the hurricanes they have down there. And it's got to be a special window and it has that special seal on the glass and the whole the whole nine yards just to change windows and you know and I I said to myself, my god, I hope this never comes in our area. I mean, nobody's going to want to do anything. Yeah, it it's just he said it was hell on earth. So theirs is because of hurricanes. Yours will be weight load for snow, you know, because it's already a federal law. There's already snow laws. Technically, you're not supposed to build your own trusses anymore. They have to be certified engineered trusses,

right? I'm just telling you what the law is. Vermont. In Vermont, there is no resial. Vermont's exempt from a lot of things. Yep. Nobody There's no permits for anything that is not open to the public. There you go. Right. That's right. You said it right there. Yeah, you got it. Yeah. Yep. And nobody tattles. I'm open to the public. I had to go through Yeah. Yeah. I get it. I same. But there's some there's some state. Well, look at the palisades right now. What's going on down there? They've had uh I forget 2600 homes that have been lost there. They've got two approved permits. Y

was on the news yesterday. Two approved permits. And these lots are all 100 by 100 lots. A lot of them. They're small lots. So, and they're going to allow them to build back on these little rinky dink lots. This is Palisades in California. California the strict the strictest state that there is in the United States and Hawaii is stricter. Hawaii is even worse big time. Well, I could see that a little bit because of all the the islands and it's because the government believes that it is the economy on the Big Island. 75% of the budget revenue comes from private.

Absolutely. Barbados is the same way. 75% of the budget goes to pay salaries and benefits. Mhm. They let the sugar sugarcane industry go to hell in Barbados because people going on vacation all the time. That's our main economy now. That's that's what supports all the people. Okay. So, we agree that we'll get something into the town plan on this subject. Yep. Okay. So any are we got it with the discussion? Looking good. So okay. So Mike, going back to Alice, I hope none of you think this is going to work out.

Oh, I think I think they'll get it. I think they'll get it to push it through. I mean, I don't I don't see that that the I I sat through 45 minutes of the of the discussion that night about the map and why we don't want and it was all just protectionism. And it's like you you can't protect the land for the next hundred years that it's not going to be developed. You know, you're you're not going to be there. You know, the next people that own it could do whatever they want. 250 talking about the 250. If you buy that land and you pay the property tax, then you get to decide how that right tired of people doing this like I didn't know all the stuff.

Well, did you own it? Trust me, I I had that argument down here. It's the same. You because they're building housing subdivision over housing subdivision all over the place here. And we don't want the farmland to go away. Okay. Are you going to farm the land? Because I can tell you these kids have all inherited their parents' farms. They have no intention of being a farmer. So, you know, when somebody comes and says, "I've got $3 million for your lot of cornfield." They're saying, "Sign me up." Oh, that's what's happened. I mean, and who are we to tell them they can't? I mean, I I kind of do have that, you know, okay, well, why can't they why should they have to keep it as a farm if they don't want to be a farmer? Stop making children.

And and and what happens with what happens with those things is they get they get taxed on the basis of the highest and best use. They get taxed on the basis of the highest and best use. And farmers can't pay that kind of property tax. Oh, that's what the current use program is all about in Vermont is to keep they only pay for they don't pay as if it's a housing development which be a lot of money. They pay if it's a farm which is entirely appropriate but and the and the sad thing is the kids are selling a lot of this property in the Midwest and the to China. China is buying up more land right now as fast as they can. Well, they're trying to stop that.

Yeah, we'll see. Lot lot of hands behind their backs. Okay. Look at hardware store. They can buy it. Yeah, you should downsize to a pub. To a pub. Hey, we could make quite a few apartments out of that. Yeah, we could. And add a second story in thought about it. Just take all the merchandise out and roll in a bunch of tiny homes. There you go. All right. All right. It might do better. I don't know. Hey, it's got water and sewer. Hey.

Yes, it does. Well, hey, my toilet.

All right. All right. Would do anybody make a motion to approve the minutes of the previous meeting? I'll make a motion we approve it. I'll second that. Any other business? Yes. I have one thing I just need to let you guys know about because we got a call into town hall about it today. There is a individual on Cedarwood Drive that has parked a truck with a mobile billboard at the end of the road and one of the neighbors complained about it. And so, um, Theresa referred the homeowner to contact Nick about it because it's definitely a zoning violation

on Cedar. Cedarwood. Where is it? Atwood. By Atwood. No. Cedar Wood. Cedarwood is out. It's right out by the church. Out by the Green Mountain Bible Church. Are you serious? There's a a billboard there. It's a mobile It's like a truck with the sign on the side of it and everything. Yeah. They said it's like a mobile billboard like for business doing business or something. Some kind of business. I don't know. Tell me. Where is it? On at the church or is it on the road or It's at It's at the intersection there at Cedarwood. She said it's near the end of the road there. Oh, I'll have to check. He lives on Cedarwood. Oh, is that where the Quan said hut is? Yeah. Half. Yes. Quanet hut. Yes. Uh, yeah. Right after.

Okay. Yeah. Ced Cedar Woods. Yeah. Maxwells. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Regulated zoning. Is it lit? Is it I mean I I Well, we're not allowed to have You're not allowed to have a billboard in Vermont in the first place. And we have a sign ordinance. So it it falls under our zone and you can't put that there. I went by there Sunday. I didn't see that. Isn't it? Somebody called in and complained about it today. So hey, don't regulations against that. I don't think so either. Yeah. It's a vehicle. It's like somebody in a van that's got their business name on it and it's parked in their driveway.

Yeah. But it's not on his land. It's parked on the in the right way, I believe. Well, then you got to act 250. It's He lives He lives way down Cedarwood and he's parked it out on the roadway. Oh, I got to check this out. I'm gonna have to Well, I don't know what it is. Teresa told me to let you guys know. Maybe it's broke down and you can't move it. I don't know. I'm going to check it out on my way home. I guess it's been there for a number of days and the neighbors are complaining. So, I would let you guys know. I noticed by Sunday. I didn't see that. I I go by every day. Yeah, you

I think we need to decide whether um we're not going to have we're not going to be open on Monday for President's Day. I have a lot of family coming for winter vacation and I I would rather not come because there's like nine people going to be staying at my house. Um maybe I should be gone. Maybe I should have I go to the meeting. So Alison, so I when I talked to Allison, you know, she's kind of concerned because she wasn't happy about missing missing today. Yes, I know. You know, are you guys do you have a different date that you would you you would do a a planned commission meeting? I said, you know, they could move it if they wanted to since that's a holiday, right? I don't have a problem with it.

I'm I'm thinking the next, you know, like that week, not because that's winter vacation for Massachusetts and Connecticut, which my family are coming from. And so maybe the next week, but you're that's Vermont's vacation. Do you have a problem with anything with that for your grandchildren or anything? What week talking about? It would be the 14th. 23rd. Oh. Yeah. Because if you go to the week after that, it's town meeting day, which you're all Oh, yeah. You guys have a me a meeting that day. Well, that Okay. So, wait a minute. Oh, no. You won't have a meeting that day,

right? We don't have a meeting that day anyway. on. No, we don't. But they're saying maybe we should have another meeting to make up for that one because we just didn't have the one the other one last month. Martin can we just have it the 23rd? Yeah, that's what we're saying. The 23rd. Okay. Yeah, I'm good. Which would be normal. Which would be your No, it's February 16th. Oh, because it's the third week. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We're doing it the fourth week. We You all right with that? I know. I got a waterboard meeting on the third third Tuesday. Right. Right. You'll be fine. So, this is a Monday, right? There there isn't anything on the fourth Monday of the month. There isn't till now. Do you want to make it earlier? Do you want to do 5:30 still? What?

5:30 is good. February 23rd. Warn that. Excuse me. Do you have to warn that? Yep. Oh, yeah. It's off schedule. Yes. Yes. Yes. I have to warn it anyway. Katie, can you do that for me? Thank you. Yeah. And we'll put out a notice that your regular meeting that's scheduled for President's Day will not take place. Yeah. Well, we would it would be closed anyway. So, Right. But, you know, people would be expecting a meeting that day. Not everybody has that as a holiday. That the town does, but not everybody does. We know that everybody that shows up. Yeah. I know you have like a million people that show up for planning commission meetings. So, we want to make sure

the day that we don't post it and it's we don't warn it. Everybody wants to be here. Well, you didn't warn it. I think we'll be open on the 16th. No. Got to find out you your business. Yeah. Oh. Oh. Well, why not? Business that I had to build in East Haven because there's no suitable commercial real estate in town. That business. No. No. Not bitter. Well, there was. You just didn't want to buy it. The tear down or the other tear down? There's a couple right now, but I think one of them is about months old and the other one Well, I make a motion we adjourn. Okay, I second that. All in favor?

I motion is motion is carried and we are adjourned.