Town Council - Regular Meeting

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We're about ready to begin.

We need to get started, everybody. Thank you.

There we go.

Team after team.

Thank you all for joining. We have a few folks joining on Zoom, but appreciate you all being here in person. We are here to talk about the Girdlestone Road and Pico Avenue Infrastructure Improvements Project. My name is Claire Hogebaum. I work with LEC Environmental Consulting permitting for this project. Joining me is Dan Scott with Wordard and Curran, the lead engineer on the project working for the town of Winthrop. We are here to present the project so for maybe the next 10 to 15 minutes Dan and myself will give a brief presentation about the project and we'll go over some of the permitting implications and some of the details on it and then we'll pass it along to you all for any questions or comments and through the presentation and just save them for when we get to the Q&A period. And then for anybody joining online, once we get through the folks that are here in person, we'll move on to some of the Zoom questions. But for those that are joining on Zoom, if you want to put any questions into the chat during the presentation, then we can read through those as well. But with that, of course, my screen froze for the connection here. Oh, is it just because we joined in July? We were joined in July. There it is. It's general, that one. 828-6153-0624. Next bullet is 951733.

Oh, there's Jack.

Jack, can you still hear us on this end? All right, we got a thumbs up. We'd love to see that. I think so. OK. Let me just work out. Thank you. Sorry for the technical difficulties. Is it sharing? Sort of sharing from here.

I think we're there. So I'm going to pass it off to Dan to start the presentation.

Appreciate everybody's patience.

Thanks everyone for coming out. This is a very important project for the town and the community. We're going to step through our project and give you some background information on the project and go through some of the details of it. So I'll start off with the project overview and go through proposed improvements as part of the project and then what to expect when the project goes into the construction phase and then Claire will go over some of the permitting aspects of the project. So there's two neighborhoods as part of the project, the Pico Avenue neighborhood, which is the smaller area to the south, and then the Gribblestone-Tileson Road project area, which is up by the bridge at the town line. So both of them are, it's a low-lying coastal neighborhood right near the harbor. The storm drains discharge to outfalls at the harbor. And it's influenced by the tides, which presents a challenge during storms. So first we'll take a look at the project area for Colonel Sloan and Tileson Roads. The elevation of the low point in the neighborhood is elevation seven. when you get like a one inch storm event, there's an inch of rain over that whole surface area that all needs to get taken out of the neighborhood and into the harbor. So it's a lot of storm water, this isn't a small area. So the second project area, a little bit smaller, when it comes to this Pico Ave, Sunnyside Ave and Plummer Ave. So they're similar 6.82 high tide and that's the drainage area. We're talking about putting a new outfall right at the edge of that seawall there just off the edge of the bottom right of that outfall. and they're undersized for today's storm events. So when there's high tides, there's inadequate outfall capacity, or outfall pipe. During high tides, there's outfalls, the diameter of the outfalls limit how quickly the system would drain into the harbor. So when it's low tide, everything freely flows through it blocks the water from coming out of the outfall and it back charges up the system. The pipes are relatively small so you don't even have that much storage capacity in the pipes. So after it rains for a decent amount of time or if there's a high intensity storm event that 12 inch line at the end is going to fill up pretty fast and not have anywhere to go. And there's impacts and cause flooding. So the proposed improvements, we're proposing to install new outfalls under each one of those project areas. So the new outfalls, it's going to replace the existing one. On Pico Beach, we're planning on proposing to install that near the existing outfall near that seawall that's there. The bigger pipes are going to allow more stormwater to get conveyed, which is a huge benefit and should reduce flooding. It allows more water to get pushed out to the harbor. It's also gonna, we're gonna have tidal protection at the, there'll be some pictures on the following slide, but there'll be a duckbill flap that'll allow, when there's tidal influence, the water can't get up into the pipe. So here's some figures that show how it's gonna work. So during low tide, you'll have the free discharge You won't have that duckbill seal, and you won't have the intrusion of the water from the harbor. This project's going to also include more inlets, so catch basins. So on the girdlestone area, you're going to get 12 more catch basins, which will help get the water into the drainage system faster. And also on Pico, you're going to have another floor added in addition to the existing. So what is this going to look like during construction? This is important so you guys understand how this is going to impact the neighborhood. The biggest thing here I want to point out is the goal here is to do one trip into your neighborhood and take care of all the infrastructure. replacement due to age. So on the storm drain side, we're going to put in the larger pipes and those outfalls with precast headwalls. So those are a few pictures. The pipes are going to be quite large. So that's kind of an idea of the scale of some of the infrastructure that's going to be put in on the drain side. In addition to that, we're going to do some sewer improvements. sewer there's old saggy sewer that's not functioning as its design intent and we're going to replace your sewer lines on properties that are in those locations all the way to the property line so the lateral going to the sewer mains water mains so that'll have benefit of getting you a new pipe in those roads and moving them out of the way so when we put in the new drain pipe everything is separated and can be maintained properly. We're also going to replace the project areas, which will be the site with new infrastructure and a nice paved surface with sidewalks above it. So what are you guys going to expect when this is going on in the neighborhoods? So there's going to be traffic impacts and parking restrictions. Those will be temporary and just based on where the work's happening. There'll be noise, dust, and debris, but it'll be within a regular working unless there's any work that needs to get done towards the end of the day. There's going to be large equipment that's necessary to install some of this large infrastructure and there's going to be temporary pavement patches so typically what happens is after they're done at the end of the week they'll patch up the road and then once the trench has a chance to settle we'll come back and do a final restoration in the following spring. As far as sure they're putting down calcium and cleaning up the roads at the end of the day. So it'll just be while they're doing that. Measures to make sure to minimize those impacts.

So I'll just briefly discuss the resource areas that are sort of prompting us to do the environmental permitting for these projects. And of course, my computer is being a little slow to get to the next slide. But here we have a photo on the left of Pico Beach, just looking sort of, I guess, from the western corner looking east on Pico Beach. And then on the right, we have the northern portion of Pleasant Park Yacht Club, where an outfall is going to be proposed. On Pico Beach, we have two proposed outfalls on each corner of the beach at the moment. And ultimately, as you see in the photos there, we have a few resource areas, notably Coastal Beach. that's at the base of those revetments or the stone that you see there. And behind those stone walls, the landform behind those are jurisdictional as coastal bank. We also have the beach protectable as land containing shellfish. And of course, both sites, majority of which are located within the 100-year floodplain, that's protectable as land subject to coastal storm flowage. We have a velocity zone mapped in the Pico Beach neighborhood in a portion of that. And then lastly, we have what Massachusetts DEP defines as filled and flowed tidelines. So the filled tidelines are everything landward in the existing development where they used to be flowed tidelines. over certain projects within the filled tidelands. And of course, flowed tidelands is where you're going to see the tide coming up and down the beach. So DEP has jurisdiction over that as well. With respect to permitting, we're at the beginning stages of that at this very moment. This meeting is somewhat generated because of the first review process we're going through. MEPA, the Massachusetts Environmental Protection Agency, or Protection Act, I'm sorry, requires if a project exceeds certain thresholds that they file an environmental notification form. And it's a state review process. It allows public agencies and members of the public to review a project before it goes into permitting. and offer feedback as well. It's a really great tool, especially for complicated projects where it's essentially like pre-application consultation permitting agencies that you're ultimately gonna be receiving permits from. And so with that, as you see in the image to the left, all of the colored polygons show different environmental justice communities. And when a project has even one environmental justice community within one mile radius of the project, it requires a second level of review with MEPA, and that's the environmental impact report. So once we get through this expanded ENF process, we're going to submit a second round of review with MEPA so I just wanted to inform you all if you want to keep track of where we are within this process this is just step one with MEPA and as you see we have these dates also listed on the project website that's posted on the flyers we're going to be updating that website as there are milestones for the projects to keep you all involved and there's contact information if you ever have any questions throughout the processes But August 26 is when we're anticipating that it'll be posted to the Environmental Monitor. There is a link on the website. If you want to follow along, you could download the filing through that link as well. The public comment period will end on September 25th. again that's something you would submit either to the analyst that is assigned or to a specific website that allows you to comment there and if there's any trouble of course my email address is on the website so you can reach out to me if you have any issues there and on October 2nd we're anticipating the certificate to be issued by the secretary and again we'll go through the second phase of MEPA but just on the bottom of the slide that are required through this project. So again, MEPA is a regulatory review process. It's not necessarily a permit, but all of the permits listed on the rest of the slide are the permits that we're anticipating to file. So we can really only start those steps after we get through a good portion of this MEPA review. And that's really the, I could keep going on permitting if you guys really want to start falling asleep, but I'll get to the questions later. So with that, I think just by hand raises, and we can start with the folks in the room. And then again, if anyone's on Zoom that would like to chime in on chat with questions, we can get to you guys after folks in the audience.

What's all the permitting still? What do you expect to Project Stark? As far as construction, once all the approvals are done?

Essentially, at least for the majority of the project being in environmental regulators jurisdiction, we can't start construction until we receive all of the permits that were listed on that prior slide. Perhaps with exception of the US Army Corps permit, because they only have jurisdiction below the high tide line, you could theoretically start work up gradient of that, but It's something I think we'd have to work out from a scheduling standpoint of whether that would be necessary or if we can obtain all permits before.

Will it be in 2017?

That I'm not certain.

It's going to be subject to the permitting schedule. Yeah, the earliest would be 2017.

OK. And then another question. Once you start, how long, assuming everything lines up in a perfect world, how long would the project take?

Kind of depends on the construction season, so conservatively two construction seasons, usually from March through October, November, April, like that time frame. And when they start work, they're going to be typically starting from the outfall locations. And then they'll typically install the drain and then do the other work around it, the other utility-like work like the water, sewer, potentially gas too. National Griff participates then.

First question is, I noticed on the map, was a section of Main Street, I don't recall it being on a slide last time you guys were in, that was recently surveyed and it all kind of creeped back to the Yacht Club. Was that added? Was that little section added recently?

That was some survey work for water main work.

But again, it wasn't originally on the map. Was that recently added?

It's an area right now. So we wanted to get the information surveyed, if funds allow. So essentially it will be an add-on to this project. It would be an add-on if funds allow.

Next. Will the duck bill allow for catchment water to flow out in the event of a high tide weather event?

No, the intent is to block, because the water's not going to have anywhere to go, right? The water's here at the duct belt. So the point of the duct belt is to allow the storage in the larger pipes for installing the water.

So you're basically building a large storage system here, and you're depending on low tide for it to empty, correct?

Yes, that's what you have to do for any coastal.

Well, I mean, an outfall pipe, and correct me if I'm wrong, proper pitch and proper head pressure keeping it closed, at some point, the catchment system fills up, creates enough head pressure to open that flapper valve. Am I correct in that assumption?

Did Bob online here?

I can answer that if you want. So Bob's the technical manager on this project. Because I see this being just a massive water storage system. And if that's the case, Steve, with this past winter storm that we had all the water may breaks, this doesn't really benefit us. The benefits are huge. Yes. Because if the water can't go out and it's a high tide event, that water is just going to start to back up into the neighborhoods, correct? That's why we want it on. Bob, would you mind touching on that?

Yeah, so I think

I think it's a great question. I think you're fairly spot on with some of your assessment on the head buildup. These duckfills are designed to discharge under a tailwater condition, but it does have to build up water on the land side in order to discharge under that tailwater condition. With that being said, that's a primary driver for why the pipes are sized so large.

That's not to convey flow.

to add storage in the system. So it will allow for these smaller storms during high tide to build up within the system and not cause ponding in the neighborhood. And of course, if it does

of water within the catchment system?

Yes, to a certain extent.

We can't design for every storm, nor is it constructible to design for certain storm events.

So we've struck a balance on what's feasible in this location and what's actually economical.

My next question is, why a duck bill and not a flapper valve?

This is a kind of a preference from the town. We were kind of leaning in this direction. We've seen problems with the flat case getting stuck open more often. And in general, a lot of the industry has started transitioning in these kind of coastal outflow areas towards duckbills and other kind of innovative outflow, backflow techniques.

in Marcy Hamilton, Tyleston Road. So I see that we are desperately in need of the larger pipes. We desperately are at sea level right now with these, with a level sea level, and we need this construction done. My question isn't really for this process. My question is for Mr. Baton. How can we, knowing that we need this in our area, after all the years that we've kind of struggled with the infrastructure and now even more so with more water pipe damage. I don't know where I see surveyors and I saw the surveyors on Pleasant Street. How can we get the funding? And I know that's hard to answer. I know you're here to do the plan and I do believe in the plan because I see how it works in the storage of the water and the permitting process, 2027. is the time when we need to hopefully have all the permitting done. You have to be paid before we start this, right? So my job is, not my job, my question is, this is just the start of, this is one project that we all know that there's many more in the community that need to be addressed because we are a coastal community. How can we start funding this process? Mr.

I mean, the council's talked about it, right? I mean, we have one option is a debt exclusion, which people prefer not to do because it really is a small neighborhood and we'll get a debt exclusion approved, right? That's always a concern. The second piece was obviously that the council talked about other ways to fund it, right? I mean, looking at some of the additional funds, maybe from the mass poor contract and things like that, but that'll be for the council to put financial policies in place to try but then we have to be able to pay that debt. So there's other ways to look at it, but I don't want to speak to the council on what they will or will not approve. But I mean, we look at it other ways. I mean, we've talked about a stormwater fee, other things like that. so we have to look at other ways to finance things. So that's what we're looking at. Preferably not do a debt exclusion and try to fund it, you know, with the funds we have in place and look for other ways to alternate, you know, maybe the additional mass support funds that we got, we can use that to pay down some of the debt and things like that. But we're working on the financial piece now. We've luckily, we've got some time until 2027 to get it done, but, you know, we have to get that in place before it goes up to bid.

Okay. So we need constituents to come to the meetings to talk to your

manager as well, talking about the drainage issues and the overtime and the DPW working overtime for the past several years, vacating that water that collects at the bottom of Tiles and the February 25th blizzard, etc. in that area as well. So I'm fairly confident that the collection system in that area can handle that. I think the problem we have here, not maybe, really not that it's a problem, but it's the incorporating all of those connections into one discharge area. We're talking about Tiles, Tiles and Girdlestone here. Nothing and no technology has been given to the current easement as far as I'm concerned as it relates to engineering. Last meeting, last presentation by Woodward and Curran here did not address the alternatives as far as how can we get around that easement. The discussion was that we couldn't access that easement because it would result in a very large open area and it's too tight to navigate. I'd like everyone in this room to look at horizontal directional drilling as an option to get through that area. It's amazing what they can do with horizontal directional drilling. 12, 24 inch lines easily. do that on a regular basis. As far as PECO, I mean, we're talking about several outfalls in PECO that could easily go underneath that wall that exists there now. And it's environmentally safe as well with the solutions they use and the techniques they use. It's a pilot hole drilling system. And then it is a coring system on the retrieval device that gives you the diameter of the pipeline, which you are going to then drag through. Very, very simple. And the cost is a fraction of what We're looking to rectify the problem in Tiles and Girdlestone, along with Pico. And I know Mr. Gill has lived in Pico down there, that area, for many, many decades here. And as far as the flooding on Pico, maybe you can answer that as far as how long that's been taking place down there. But in several of the families I've talked to down in Pico in that area, they've told me that that is a compromised drainage pipe down there, as I believe to be most of these, along with Wood Street. These have been neglected for decades and decades and decades. And I believe that a horizontal directional drilling, along with a mechanical cyst as it relates to some piping network and chamber, I've consulted with other engineers who do this all over Boston. That is the technique they use at Seaport to take care of the aquarium area as well. And I could get you in touch with the engineer who designed all of that as well. So I think it's a pretty easy fix and it's very costly. effective i think we should look into that i know a lot of money has been spent already on the design and everything else to surveying uh but i think there is another option to resolve this much quicker and get that water out of tyleston and girdlestone area at a fraction of the cost and as far as 3a is concerned we're going to have to face that uh bowl uh shortly here um the 25th is when that hearing takes place as it relates to the uh the exemption case which i am always been for and just because i'm for the exemption case you know people want to look at me and say oh the other reason why all these places are flooding it's not the case at all this has been going on for decades and everyone who's fought that exemption case has basically got the stink eye from many people whose houses flood. And I've talked to several people whose houses do flood, and it's nothing on the people who are for the exemption. They would prefer the exemption, but unfortunately, they are faced with water issues right now. And they have been faced with them for many, many years, and in some cases, some decades as well. But I think this timing of this is ill. We're about to face the 3A issue itself. We may resolve that. And in accordance to the yes on 3A side, there's in excess of $40 million waiting for the town of Winthrop for our grass. We're talking $6 million at Pico. We're talking another $12 to $18 down on Morton. And I believe that the Girlstone-Tyleston road area, I think, was coming around $450. So I think we shouldn't be so eager to proceed unless we go through the process of rectifying the 3A issue and then go for the grants with the state to pay for all of this. We haven't even seen the increase in the firehouse yet at 450 for each household. My taxes went up $1,500 last year. And we're talking some more money here as it relates to Girlston, Tyleston, and the trash fees. You know how many calls I got people? So upset about $30 in trash fees. It has to come under control at some point here. I'm just saying, just put the hustles on a little bit here. Put the brakes on. And let's really look into this issue here as it relates to flooding. And Marcy, I'm sorry. I just want to be fiscally responsible. There's a lot of people who are on fixed incomes in this area. And they're going to be paying for this. Believe me, I feel for you. I feel for everybody down on Bank Street in Wilshire. And I just want to really look into this very closely. Is there different technology? I believe so. And I'd like to see that entertained before we push this forward to spend $5 million, $6 million. I don't know what's the price tag on Pico. I have not heard that. The last presentation was strictly girdles down for about $4.5 million.

Not certain. Can I just sort of consolidate what you're trying to say here so I can understand the concern you're bringing in is just taking time to really evaluate the alternatives, right? And so through this MEPA process, they actually require a very thorough alternatives analysis to be presented in this expanded ENF. And so that's certainly something that we're going to be presenting the alternatives that have been considered and regulators and anybody who provides public comment through that MEPA process can certainly request that we look into certainly be something that's vetted out through this MEPA process.

And I appreciate that. And I think as a council member, along with several others in this room, I think our questions should be directed more towards the town manager and DPW director and maybe the town council president to maybe resolve this and really not, you are an engineering firm. And I appreciate all the work you have done. It's wonderful, wonderful work. But as you know, it's very contentious here in the town of Winthrop. Money, 3A, grants, the state's mad at us. I mean, people are mad at the councilors. It all depends on which side you're on. It's very, very sad in a way. But we have to just, I think, maybe put the brakes on spending money like a drunken sailor in this town and rack up the credit cards. I mean, let's put the brakes on a little bit and be responsible in our spending here. So that's all I'm saying here. That's all I'm saying. Thank you.

Thank you. Yes. I have a lot to say after that. There's a lot to unpack there. Because at the end of the day, these people are suffering. We're suffering. And you're worrying about, let's put a stop to this. Let's stop this. Let's go backwards. You missed my point. I guess I did because I heard a lot.

Horizontal directional drilling with mechanical assist will solve the problem quicker. It's much, much faster. Then why didn't you do that? This is two, two and a half years away.

Then why didn't you do that? Who do that? Why haven't you discussed that at meetings?

I've questioned our town manager. Yes. Go back a couple of months and look at the town council meetings.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it all. Now we're starting with something that's going to be on a roll.

You have the floor.

It's going to be on a roll, and they're starting a procedure, and you seem like you want to put a nail right in it. I don't know why. I don't know what your objective is. I have no idea. I don't care about 3A. There's people here that's talking about solving a problem. You're talking about our internal 3A problems. Get over it and deal with it amongst yourselves. Not when we have people here trying to solve a problem. You're wasting our time with you. That's all I have to say. All I have to say. Are you going to keep my mouth quite closed? Do you have any questions for us? No, I don't, but thank you.

Okay. On Council Costigan's first question, we talked about the horizontal drilling, maybe what he said. I mean, why that wasn't looked at, or did he look at that? I mean, as far as... Typically, that's not used for gravity applications.

And it's also not used in applications where there's a lot of utility confidence, which this place has a lot of utility confidence. Unidirectional boring... is a great technology in open areas where you can shoot and burrow and go. We have conflicts at, you know, every section of pipe is a conflict. This is why, you know, in order to fit the size pipe that we need, the water main has to be shifted. Sewer has to be shifted. But in addition to that, these pipes are old. problem. I know you want to say it's old. That's where you're seeing the problem. You saw the catchment area is quite large. It's all 8 to 12 inch pipe. It's pre-1940 pipe. It's clay. It's inflow infiltration. You're losing your capacity with groundwater in addition to tidewater. It's filled with silt. all that pipe has to be replaced. You can't just fix a small portion at the end of Tidalstone and Girlstone and think you're going to resolve the problems in that catchment area. It's just not, it's not going to happen. Unidirectional boring, we can, certainly if the town manager wants to have wood and carbon looking, you know, prove to you that unidirectional boring is not the answer here, then that's, that's money you can spend and I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't fund the projects. In my capacity, I try to give you the proper advice. What we're proposing here has been well looked at. It has been well engineered. I understand your point. It is. Fiscally, right now, the towns aren't in a great spot. Most municipalities aren't. The economy is an issue right now. However, We've got to address this, and we are. We're at the end of the engineering design phase. You want to go back to square one and look at another option, which I'm not here to debate you, but it's not the proper option. What we're presenting here is, and it will solve the problem.

One more question. Does this project include maybe repairing or replacing the seawall, which is a lack of seawall on Spico, which is just private?

So that is part of the project. Currently, that's the only portion that's not engineered. There's a funding piece there that has to happen for the funding of that engineering phase. It's intended to be part of the project. It's just the one piece that's not engineered yet. All the engineering, all the design and engineering for the drainage component of Pico. This is building one, as we talked about, right? Yes.

On the same subject, it would be good to have some more seawall there. But we'd also like to keep the ocean out, but maintain access to the beach. I guess that would have to be engineered too, right? As far as the Pico?

Yeah, I mean, probably the problem with Pico, and it's not really a problem that's fixable here, is, you know, it comes from both ends, right? You get it from the marsh side, and you get it from there. This isn't addressing anything from the marsh side, so that's why we want to get the stormwater fixed, because that's always, you know, it's not really a great fix for that, because that water just has open access to come through. The seawall portion will certainly help, and we've all been down there when going to be an issue that's going to have to be addressed. But, you know, tougher to address that. I mean, that march was all the way out. It's not really a, you know, we looked at it in Morgan Banks. They talked about an earthburn, but that's really not something that we can take a look at there. So that's something that we can manage from there to the middle of the march, like flooding coming through on the high tides.

Yeah, go ahead. Suzanne spoke recently. As I understand what you said in response to Councillor Cossington's questions, permitting process they're going to ask you all sorts of questions about why you chose this particular solution is that correct absolutely and you will have to defend why you didn't do X Y and Z is that's right and so that would be nice so that we could understand why

uh yes so through the meetbook process we submit uh the form and an accompanying supplemental report that explains the form in detail and in that report there's a standalone chapter going through alternatives analysis and that alone so it describes the alternatives that the project team considered and then why they were omitted from our final choice thank you Sorry.

Go ahead, Kathy Russo. Girdlestone. You said 12 extra sewer drainages? Catch basins. Catch basins?

That's throughout the area, correct? Yes, throughout that area.

Okay. Would there be girdlestone tiles? They'll be separated right here? Yes. Because right now the main drain happens to be in front of my house. And... That's where the water accumulates and spreads out from there, if it hasn't already come all the way down the street and over to Marcy's Yard. But they would be spread out through the catch basins throughout, okay, including like Main Street.

Well, just within that, within the catchment area, so Marshall, Tiles, and Girdlestone, Pleasant, 12 more structures within that catchment area.

Okay, thank you.

Thanks. I do want to give an opportunity to folks on Zoom, seeing it's 614. Does anybody on Zoom have any questions or questions generally been asked? If you have a question, put your hand up on Zoom. Otherwise, we'll just continue on with in-person questions. For the moment, I don't see anything on Zoom. So if anybody in the audience. I have another question.

This is Dorothy. We're here today because of the extreme neglect of maintaining these outfalls. As I stated 35 years ago when it broke, at least, the cost of fixing the outfall pipe was about $68,000. And now we're getting ready to spend $4.5 million. I want to know what it is that the town is going to do to prevent this from happening again. Because as far as I'm concerned, it's not a lack of maintaining infrastructure. When that flapper valve broke, up to date, you've got over 14,000 to 15,000 saltwater incursions into the catchment system. And we know saltwater is not kind to anything. That's why the pipe collapsed. because of twice daily saltwater incursions into the system. A flapper valve or a duckbill would have prevented those saltwater incursions. And the duckbill or the flapper valve would have prevented the catchment systems from filling up in the first place. So when you have a non-functioning duckbill or flapper valve, in a rain event and high tide, high tide fills it first and now rain's got nowhere to go. So this is strictly on the town. Not you, Steve, not you. This happened long before you guys were ever, ever, ever involved in it. But it's criminally negligent of the town to have kicked this can down the road for as long as they have. We've been complaining about it. Paul, you've lived on Girdlestone for 70 years. He's been complaining about it longer than all of us put together. Okay? And because he's just one voice, he was dismissed. I come and I complain. I was one voice and I was dismissed years and years ago. But now that it's gotten to critical mass, now we're doing something about it? This is a theme in this town. We are reactive. We are not proactive. And I want to know what we're going to do to be proactive to keep these systems that we're going to be putting in place, a preventative maintenance system, so that this doesn't occur again. I'll speak to that.

Well, I can't speak to the 35 years ago. I know, because I know that. You're 100% accurate that a plasma valve is needed. Right now, that and it's been built over. That happened well, again, well before, probably pre-35 years. I don't know. I think it's actually been longer.

I've been on the street for 34, and it started about two years after I moved in.

To answer your question, which is probably the more important question, what we're going to do to maintain it, we've designed this system, we've placed the outfall in an area that is accessible. We're recommending a bulkhead-mounted duct build, which is exposed and easily maintained. We're proposing polyethylene rubber gasket and push joint pipe to keep infiltration, to keep silt out, and to have nice clean pipes. Easily maintained, easily backed, easily cambered. So what we're putting in the ground now is a system

Like I said, moving forward, I want to see actually a written preventative maintenance plan for it because I think you owe us that.

I agree. I don't think that's a difficult thing to do. And to jump in on the cost that was raised earlier, one of the things we did, and we talked about this, but there was, you know, I think a pump chamber, right, concluded there was a Director Callard talked about potentially putting in a pump chamber, which we knew was going to be about... I wanted to see that.

And to speak to what you're talking about on the storms that, as Dan spoke to earlier, you can engineer for every single event, you're going to be paying $20 to $30 million if you want to do that. So to be fiscally responsible and to provide you with a backup, you know, if there's a prolonged astronomical tide and, you know, extreme, extreme weather for a prolonged time, 100 years long, that pump station will give you a second need. So there might be a time in the history, probably not mine, but within 50 years that even with this new system, you might have to put a pump down there. You've got prolonged astronomical time.

I say the infrastructure that's there with the pump right now is your backup.

There's no room for it.

What my point is is that that was an additional $800,000. We cut that out, but we allowed to have access to the pipe up by the easement for Pleasant Park Yard Club. So we could do what we do now, go in there and be able to pump the water out.

We're going to install a pump chamber. An asteroid. And we can easily drop a discharge. Exactly. Like what we're doing right now.

And if we get an astronomical high tide and a four-inch rainstorm or three-inch rainstorm, you know, that's an area where it might feel the system will be able to go in and pump it so we don't have what you're concerned about. So that was...

It won't affect Pleasant Street. We won't be pumping across Pleasant Street. Right. Just pump it right out. At the head.

At the head wall. I can't stress enough that, you know, because of the lack of maintenance in our entire infrastructure system in this town, Steven, from Utah. I've been here for 20 years.

From the 20 years that I've been here, you're all witness to it. We've had major infrastructure projects every year in this town. So it has not been lack of trying to fix the problems. It comes down to dollars, right, Councillor?

I'd like to... Go ahead. You too, man. Yep, I'm outside. I just want to say thank you to the DPW. They're our best friends now when girls don't show up. They prepared for one storm that never came, and they were there overnight. But the guys are great. I mean, it's just nice seeing them. And they're very pleasant. And everybody's excellent that doesn't come in.

Remind them of that every day. I appreciate it.

I do have a hand up from someone on Zoom, the Google Pixel 10 Pro X. If you want to unmute yourself and ask your question.

Let's see the hand up. I'm going to ask them to unmute. Can you hear me? Yes, we can hear you.

Hi, guys. Good afternoon. I just want to know how long this project would take to finish, and what measures are you guys taking for the neighboring houses to begin? Because we have kids in the house, so when they work, they usually make a lot of noise. So I want to know how long it takes

We're losing service a bit, but I think I understand the question is how long is the construction going to take and how it impacts the civic?

It sounded like he was asking though, like localized. So at those outfall locations, that's going to be the longest days of work, just constructing those head walls and the deep excavations required. And then after that, it's going to be dependent too on the amount of utility work that's associated with it. certain areas there's going to be replacements in certain areas there isn't but typically they should be able to put in depending on the conditions they should be able to move along and be you know week to week be moving from like a couple houses worst case scenario so as far as like directly in front of your house there's going to be impacts on a week-to-week basis and then when they're doing that water and sewer work. So it's really going to be a function of how long the contractor takes. But typically, it should be immediately in front of your house shouldn't be an extremely long time. Talking about weeks, not months.

One more question. I think one of the things that I'd like to see is that the Climate Commission comes back on board. And I know you probably didn't see. I know there's something about climate going on there. And I want to make sure that it outlives us and our children. So climate, the sea is rising. And I want to make sure that your pipe outfalls and everything is for like 2070. I don't know if you can do that because we'll be all gone. But 20, I want to make sure you take the climate and the tidal rises seriously so we can ensure that the money we're spending is going to outlast the project and Windsor, hopefully. Thank you for that point.

That is something that through the MEPA process they do. request and require that you address sort of climate change and resiliency with projects. So that is a point that we will be describing and addressing in that filing as well. There's certainly site constraints here with the elevations and where the tide is present day and where it's projected to be in 2070. And with that projection sort of being more on a larger scale than just the localized neighborhoods, but certainly Woodard and Kern has worked really hard to design this project for you know, a longevity purpose.

Right, because Woods Hole came in a couple of times and looked at that area and lots of other areas around town and, you know, we didn't jump on that as quickly as we should have and now here we are and I appreciate your presentation. Thank you so much and I always appreciate the DPW. I have you on speed dial and I appreciate everybody for coming out and please contact your councillors to show your support. And maybe we should just have more cans at the Winter Marketplace to move this along. I know we are. We are not financially stable. I know that. And I know that some people are struggling. I know that as well. But if we don't take care of this now, it's only going to triple in the amount of money that we need to spend. And we can't afford not to do it. And we don't want to do it cheaply. And we do want long-term maintenance. I mean, I want it all for all of Windsor, because again, I look at my, my poor husband, I look at my thumbnail and we have this big, we're all going to be underwater eventually. So please understand that every neighborhood is your neighborhood. And that was an evacuation route at one point. And now I know, but we have to shelter in place. Right, so please support this project. Thank you. Did I see you had a hand up?

Do you have a description of the maximum capacity of the system in terms, perhaps, of inches of rain, duration of the rain, height of tide? When is it overwhelmed? What's the limit of it?

I believe we designed to a 10-year storm, which is based off design storm. So it's a simulated storm with a peak and a drop. So it's just an engineering best practice way to design a stormwater system. So it's hard to simulate.

Can that be described as inches of rain over a period of time? Bob, do you know the amount?

Four inches over a day or an hour? I don't have it in front of me, but I think it's around five inches. 24 hours. that as well. We've designed to go at less than four keys, but we've designed to go at less than four keys, but we've designed to go at less than four keys, but we've designed to go at less than four keys, but we've designed to go at less than four keys, but we've designed to go at less than four keys, but we've designed to go at less than four keys, but we've designed to go at less than four keys, but we've designed to go at less than four keys, but we've designed to go at less than four keys, but we've designed to go at less than four keys, but we've designed to go at less than four keys, but we've designed to go at less than four keys, but we've designed to go at less than four keys, but we've designed to go at less than four keys, but we've designed to go at less than four keys, but we've designed to go at less than four keys, but we've designed to go at less than four keys, but we've designed to confidence interval for it.

Thanks.

I have a question about tide timing, really. It eventually goes out again, but we've had cases where we've missed a low tide. For instance, the Hurricane Sandy was a high tide, nor'easter. The sustained winds basically held the water in, so instead of going out every 12 hours, it kind of just stayed high another day before it really went out again, if you're taking that into account in the engineering.

until the tide doesn't see and then you can discharge.

It might not be eight hours. It could be 24 before it goes out again.

I think 629 just time for one more question. Yeah, go ahead.

Thank you. Just to talk off of Masi's comments, the Climate Commission. I was a member of that as well. DeRoss, I believe, Council of Dimes, et cetera, Mr. Darian as well. During those very intense Houston, Pico, Morton, Morton being the largest at $18 million. Pico, we're looking at about $8 million with that Seawolk construction. And I believe Girdlestone, somewhere around $4 to $5 million. The consensus amongst all of the commission at that time was the importance of securing grant money for all of these very large projects as it relates to alleviating the cost and the burden. I have copious amounts of notes as it relates to all of those discussions. So I'm just saying as it relates to what I said previous is that there could potentially be grant money out there to fund these programs depending upon the exemption case that, again, we may have to deal with that. I'm just saying why don't we just slow roll it to see what happens there as well. as it relates to the quick fix. I know the DPW does a hell of a job. Mr. Calla, your crew, I see them down there. Rain, snow, sleet, hail. You can't take anything away from that. With regards to Tyleston, again, the horizontal directional drilling, and they have ways of meandering around permanent structures under the ground as well. It's quite interesting. but maybe a chamber at the end of Tyleston to catch that rainwater that pools there. And again, as I mentioned, a mechanical assist, at least in the interim. So that's all I'm asking, is just slow it down a little bit and really let's be reasonable in our approach here as it relates to this.

It's been years. From what I've read, Councilor Costerton, about any kind of grants, We need to keep planning so we are shovel ready forever and ever about everything we're trying to get grants for. Because whether it's federal or state or private or other funding, I think that's where I don't want to slow down projects if we can help it. I want to get us ready for those grants that we can possibly receive. And I think as we start this, we're working on planning, continuing our planning from 2030. Remember, we had 2030 win. And we reviewed that, and we're looking at upgrading that and thinking about now where are we going forward. So I think you'll see us hopefully planning and including getting shovel ready in hopes that we will be able to be in a position to receive money when it comes.

Thank you. One last question.

Just a question. Are there renderings that would show existing state after the five inch storm compared to if this was the place, this is what the drainage can go back to. Was it 12 years ago when we had the 200 year storm set us within a month of each other. So I got flooded up twice more than that, but, but it's, I want to know like, what's it going to look like in theory.

existing conditions in the hydraulic model?

I believe we do have existing conditions in the hydraulic model.

I'm not certain if it's going to be ready for posting yet, Bob. Certainly once it is. When we come to the Conservation Commission for the Notice of Intent, we're going to have to demonstrate compliance with the Massachusetts stormwater standards and any local bylaws stormwater standards as well. And that is going to be a lovely report that you all can sit down and get a good weekend read out of. And that should have some graphics to it to show the existing watershed areas and drainage paths or a sort of time frame of that versus the proposed condition. And then we could certainly try to, you know, post something that's a little more digestible on the website.

Seeing that we went over just a couple minutes, I just think that

I don't think anyone's talked about overall costs for this overall, two combined projects here. I know Girdlestone's around four and a half. Town Manager, what's PECO looking at? Just the storm.

Just the storm water, I think it falls. numbers are all over the place right now for seawall construction we haven't even designed it yet so I'm not even going to offer a guess on that I know the commission mentioned 8 million that was a year ago so it's probably