Regional Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

I call the meeting to order. It is 7:00 November 18th for the Colchester Planning Commission. Uh first thing on our agenda considerations are reserved for changes to the agenda items and order. Um, I was just going to suggest adding in um number seven B if there's time. Um, I promised at the last meeting to do a quick um ELMS training um on how to use our land records. Um, so, uh, if there's if we're not running long, um,

sounds good. Do that. Probably no more than 15 minutes. But, um, totally optional if we find ourselves running long, but I don't have all that much to talk about. So, I think it might be something that might be good to do if we Okay. If we're tracking well with time.

Okay. Sounds good. All right. So, we got uh comments and questions from the public. We're good there. Uh commission discussion, potential items for future updates to the land development regulations supplement 49. All right. So for the purpose of this discussion um I removed items so that we have a running list of uh potential items for supplement 49. I removed the items that you discussed at the last meeting. I did make every change that you uh directed. Those are in the minutes. Some of them we actually made live while we were um working on them. But I do want to hold space for you if you want to look at any of them or talk about any of them. Um I do have a list I think on here just so you can refresh your memory. We talked about medical office. Uh we talked about temporary fencing, food trucks, uh automobile sales on residential property. So A through D we got through last time. Um so I removed it from the memo just to shorten it up. But if you want to circle back, now's the time.

So, food trucks. Food trucks. You want to talk about food trucks? Yep. Okay. Let me pull up I'm just going to actually go right into the language since it's all in the same spot.

Um, just give me a minute cuz I forgot to have it open for you. Um, oh, this might actually take a minute cuz I think I'm connected to the wrong Wi-Fi. No, I'm not. Um, anybody get a good joke? I feel like that's something I should start keeping in my back pocket. [laughter]

like I should keep a series of these in my back pocket and I don't have any like ready to go. Um I have a I have one that's kind of PG-13 but I won't say I got one on. It's more like PG-15. Uh okay, here we are. We're opening up filtering through the air. Here we go. Okay. Food trucks is section. Where did we end up putting it?

Food truck ones that was sent to us. Yep. So, we could go back to anything that you want to see that you saw last time. Okay. food truck one interests me because I want to make sure we're user friendly on that one. Seems to be a big thing out there, but we don't seem to be able to years past get people to understand that we're back on track here and moving forward a little more business friendly trucks. Why do you think from years past I don't think we are as business friendly as we should have been. Okay. And I do now think we are business friendly as we should be.

But it's all these little little detailed things that we're changing. They're making people happy. I think that's make it bigger so far. Okay. That's that's what I feel. That was one that interested me last time I wasn't here. So I'd like to Sure. Just see if we're all on the same page. Yeah. Um so do you Yeah, you're definitely going to poof it. [laughter] Okay, I'll go even bigger. Um,

how's that? More? Yeah. One more. One more. There you go. That I can go more. Don't be embarrassed. I got these things on, too. What's that? Yeah, that didn't help. The number is actually going up. But let's try 190. Well, no. Make it 200. 200. Nice even number. There you go. There we go. 200's. Well, including the minutes that, you know, we zoomed to 200%. [laughter]

I love it. Um, pay no attention to the colors. This is what happens when word is just funny. This is what happens when two of us work on the language. So, I think I'm red and Zach's blue. Um, but it's all new. This this entire section is brand new. So, everything is new. We'll fix it before it goes to any sort of public hearing. It'll all be read. Um, do you want me to go through the whole thing, Rich, or is there a certain Did you look at it and you want to talk about a certain section? Uh, I did. I looked most of it looked pretty good, but some of it was I I didn't get the porta potty thing at all. Okay. You want to skip to that or do you want to go top to bottom? How long is this? This is not that long, is it? It's not that long. Just let's just go through it. Okay. It's all right.

So, I'll walk through it. Um, [clears throat] so we started with um a definition. So last time, just to catch you up, Rich, we did talk about uh we spent some time on the definition because there's this temporary short order restaurant. So there was some talk about that. Um that definition is actually currently in our regulations um with it being a short order restaurant. Um because it kind of is. Um it's the reason that we decided to keep it is because it's consistent for us when we're doing anything related to traffic or parking. Um it's just a use that already exists. Um that makes some sense. Um it doesn't mean that it has that it's brick and mortar cuz we're already we address that it's not, right? Um um so operating out of a truck or trailer um meant to be seasonal. Um we do talk specifically that it's capable of being driven or towed off site uh without difficulty or specialty equipment. This is differentiate it from things that maybe were not built brick and mortar but kind of function that way cuz they have no axles or wheels and they just sort of pllopped there. And well, you've seen them. Um, yep.

So, they really are meant to be mobile and and sort of truck-l like, but they could be in a trailer. Uh, which is why they're called mobile food units instead of food trucks. Um, and we're intending to distinguish this from a peddler, which is like, you know, Mr. Dingling, the ice cream truck that drives around town. Um, and really just only parks as needed for special events or something like that, but doesn't set up for any very long length of time. uh that would be treated differently. Um so basically what a truck like that would do is get a permit to drive around town. He gets a peddler's permit from um the select board. Um I think it's like 60 bucks or $75 or something and he's good to go for the season. Uh as long as you don't stay in one place or any place um and park yourself for less than 10 days. We talked about this last time. Um so you can still do special events as a peddler. Um, but as soon as you exceed 10 days of parking somewhere, you become a different use. Um, 10 days is like sort of a magic transition break that we use for a lot of things. Um, when you're not really temporary anymore. Um, so I know there was some concern about, you know, people who are at the Fourth of July or in the park a couple weekends or at a Mazda's event here and there. Those are still different. Those are not necessarily food trucks, but as soon as one wants to set up there for half a season or a season, um, then this would apply to them. Does that all make sense in terms of distinguishing between a peddler and a food unit?

Yep. Okay. Um, so then we have a series of standards associated with that. Hang on. So what happens when you make it big? Let me get back to one registration. Um has to have a valid registration. Again, this is meant to be something that is mobile. Um so the trailer um or the truck itself has to be registered. This is pretty common. Um just I did a lot of research on other um exacted as well on some other um food unit or food vendor type regulations. And this is pretty common in in other towns around us.

Yep. Um location. Um this is one we talked about. Um through and through, but uh common and so I put it in here. Uh mobile food units are permitted on lots which are non-residential. Um so it would not necessarily be able to set up um you know in the parking lot of uh Banty Woods or your neighborhood for the season. Um, but it could be in the Price Drop parking lot, for example. Um, again, this is seasonally, not I can't drive through it. Y

uh, wastewater. Um, so they have to get um, some sort of permit um, from uh, the state. the state will determine what that looks like and what they are allowed to um have and we're going to leave that up to them. If a holding tank is adequate for the state, it's adequate for us. If um but they need to get something from the state that says that they have adequate on-site waste water. Um that's after they've got we've gone through our stuff. You're all good. Now you go to the state. No, we would send them to the state first. Send them state first. Yep. So they got to come to us and prove that they have this. Okay.

Um we wouldn't take the next step with them until they have that in hand. And that's common for a lot of what we do. Okay. Um even an accessory dwelling unit for example has to prove to us that they have waste water for that additional unit.

All right. Um, now that said, if they don't have on-site wastewater, we did put a provision in here that says if if it's just not possible, you have no way to tap in and no way to do anything about it. you might still be able to operate, but we're probably going to make you leave um nightly because you don't have a place to dispose of that and we don't want to use our imagination or let you use your imagination to figure out where that's going. Um so, as long as they have if they have a pump out, you tell me. Um,

if you're a true truck, [clears throat] you're ready to roll and you'll have adequate x amount of days you can be there before you have to dump or pump out. We talked about this at length last time, too. Remembering that most [clears throat] of these trucks, we're talking about really kind of like gray water more than like black water.

Yeah. Um, you're probably not paying for a pump out because you're probably going through that sort of thing fairly quickly cuz you're washing your hands, you're cleaning off utensils, you're cleaning dishes. Um, that would probably fill faster than pumpouts are really worth, you know, I imagine with the capacity. I think so. Um, so allowing someone to say they're getting a pump out. Um, where do you think they're going to take care of the problem?

I'm not sure people are going to pay. I mean, you're going to fill a gray water tank really fast. I agree with that. Honestly, I've never asked anybody that question or thought about the gray water, but it is a good question. Yeah, it would be interesting to ask all these food trucks what they do with their waste. Yeah. What's your what's your holding capacity and move around? What are you doing? Yeah. Running up to Lone Pine cuz the price would be astronomical as you say for gray water. But where are you? I think these local trucks have to have somewhere. They're everywhere. You're going to be doing something like to pay somebody to come and pump you out. Yeah, that's a different idea. So that they come in, they pump out.

That's got to be What do you think? 50 bucks a pump out? Probably. Lust I heard. That doesn't seem worth it. Well, probably 75 now if you want to go there and you don't you're not there to dump if you bring it in yourself. Bring yourself 75. So it's probably even more if you call a company and say come to me. If you call a septic company and say come to me and pump me out. Yeah. That doesn't seem worth it. Yeah. For gray water. Somebody's just gonna be dumping their gray water. Yeah. And thinking they're not harming anybody. It's soapy water. They're gonna open that little spigot up. Yeah, exactly. Dump it into the grass or the pavement that they're sitting on.

We don't want that. So, that's why I think I'm hesitant to say something about a pumpout. I guess for now, I'd leave it without knowing exactly what, but I would like I guess I have to ask. Yeah, that was the future on that one. Yeah, I would ask around, especially if you know somebody who sets up for any length of time. Yeah, I think obviously anyone who's traveling a lot, you know, maybe doing events, y they probably have someplace they can go to and dump. Um, but the people who are staying in a place for a long time, I'm curious what they do.

Yeah. Um, I know you know a lot of people who who are in the business. So, yeah, I'll have to ask. I'm curious. I guess we'll leave it for for me anyways. Make changes. There might be something that I'm not seeing like PMP. That's their thing. Maybe they have truck hauls. They have some not monster trucks. They have a couple of smaller ones. You almost I'm almost thinking that's their thing. There's a lot of food trucks out there. I mean, all when Burlington has their little event, there's 15 of them out there, but they all move. They don't stay there, right?

They don't stay there. They got to don't somewhat senators. I'm curious more about the ones who stay like Yeah. We were talking last time and I was wondering I was trying to think of the ones who actually stay put and I was thinking of um the one at Essex Automotive, the Sausage Shack. Yeah. I'm curious what they do cuz they stay for a long time. Um they do move. They don't stay there forever. They do events, but they stay sometimes weeks at a time. Yeah, exactly. Um I couldn't really think of a lot of others. There's few couple of Milton is there that that sort of stay drag that seem to stay like for a season.

Yeah. Um, yeah, for now I guess you're right. I mean, obviously there's the the infamous Beansy's bus. Yeah. Um, they don't move once they're there. No, I'm curious what they do. Without that answer, that's the best solution. Move. Yeah, unless they can prove something different. Yeah, but we can leave it for now. We can always change these things as we [clears throat] hear from folks, but um and you know, if you know of anybody, feel free to invite them in to talk. Next time I go to one, I'll ask. Yeah. Huh?

Do you Next time I go to a food truck, I'll ask. Where do you waste? There you go. Do you want to move on to five? Yeah. Go ahead. Oh, wait. One, two, three, four. Temporary outdoor seating. Yeah. Not five. Four. Um so we talked about this 16 people um 16 pe 16 is the limit um under wastewater um so wastewater that we looked at last time is uh the Vermont Department of Health

Department of Health uh limits you to 16. So uh we're just carrying that over. Um, and basically this says um some common sense stuff about not putting it in a circulation lean so that people don't get run over. Um, and then other things that are maybe up for discussion. Um, I wrote in here that the seating shall be temporary, no foundation or underlying structure. So, you can't build a deck to put it on. you can't make anything permanent that's going to be there, you know, year after year. And then we talked um for a little while about uh separation. We had something different here and we changed it to just a physical barrier. I think we had something like robust or some other words.

Um so we changed that to just a physical barrier. Yeah.

Uh to leave it more flexible. Um, so it could be a rope, it could be planters, it could be even a grass area that separates the parking from, you know, where the seating is. Just something that you don't have seating in the middle of your parking lot essentially. Um, that's really what that's intended to do, create separation, safety. Okay. uh adequate parking. Um so this just basically says uh you still have to adequate parking. You know, basically we're going to take a common sense approach to this. If you're going to propose a food truck at Costco where parking's already tight and you're going to put it in a place that takes up 15 parking spaces, probably going to ask you to do a parking study and prove that you're not going to impact parking. If you're going to put it in the back of the Shaw's parking lot, probably not going to ask you to do a parking study. Um, but we're going to look at the numbers every time and just make sure that um you're not impacting the needs of the existing business and the needs of the parking or of the mobile food unit. Um, and that the location of it doesn't impede the site's ability to provide parking for customers. um especially accessible spaces if you're required to have those. We don't want to see a food unit in those accessible spaces. We don't want it obstructing traffic um or anything like that. So, okay,

that's what that says. Uh that carry that theme carries into six. um uh carries forward a little bit more and said that the food unit should be set up so that customers can queue safely. Um so if you are going to put it in a parking lot and take up parking spaces, you don't want your customers having to stand into that drive aisle. Um maybe one or two can fit there. If you start to have a line of five or six, good for you. That means you're successful. And the only place to go is in the aisle where the cars are coming through. We don't want that. So, we're going to ask you as you permit this to show that your customers have a safe place to stand um and not towards a road or a drive lane. Uh dates of operation. So, we changed this one too, I think. Uh so currently mobile food units say something about May to October I think or April to October. Um and then I had put in here I think I can't remember what the draft was six or seven 6 months. Uh so the folks who were here last time talked about it and asked me to change that to 8 months um as being sort of more representative of fair weather. um operation. So 8 months is what's in here. Um that's really the takeaway for that one. That was pretty unanimous. I think Rebecca liked seven, but

no, I said I No, I'm the one that suggested the eight. Uh because the the date like seven the dates that you had from April to November whatever was 7 months. Oh okay. Okay. So I didn't want to go back backwards. Okay. And we had talked about some people might be more seasonal towards into the fall winter and some might be starting early in the spring. So the eight months kind of covered that period and everybody was pretty on board with that. So, yeah, makes sense.

Um, signage we talked about. I don't know that we made any changes to it. Um, so basically, we're trying to make sure that a mobile food truck isn't being allowed more signage than a brick and mortar building, cuz that seems a little unfair. Um, so the signage that's reflected here is basically nothing more than would be allowed on lad's business or you know Rebecca's shop or something. Um so 30% um can't protrude more than 3 in. So it's not meant to be huge protruding signs. Um so you can have a flag in addition to that um that says you're open. That doesn't count as a sign. Um some things you think you don't have to say but you always have to say them like mounted below the roof level. It's not meant to be wacky waving 100 ft high. Uh no other flags for signage. Sandwich boards. Uh so you do we would give you an extra sandwich board sign. Um six square feet on each face. Um you know you can put on it what you want. You want to put your menu on it. You want to put your hours. You want to just write the name of the business. But it's meant to be sort of pedestrian scale. It's meant to serve the people there. So that's why it says within 10 ft of the unit unit. Um oh one thing we didn't talk about you notice sometimes they stick a an open sign one of those little single flag things by the road to get their attention to come in. We didn't talk about those.

We did not talk about them. So according to this it would not be allowed. Right. But you see them everywhere. Do you? Yeah. Yeah. Signs.

Signs. Yeah. I suppose like anybody else, they could apply for something like that, but um No, actually, I think it makes clear they don't get additional signage. Oh, they do request for additional signage. Um are subject to the sign regulations, but um but I think they're already getting a pretty good amount of signage per this. Uh you get the signs on the vehicle, you get an open flag, and you get a sandwich board. Um so it's a lot of signs for a small little temporary thing. Um depending on where they're placed, that sandwich board might be somewhat close to the road, but nothing should be in the rightway no matter what. Uh it's a ongoing problem for us. Signs in the rightway. Um, even some very popular, well-loved local businesses we struggle with. Um, and I get it. You want to let people know, especially if you're set back from the road, but um, it can block your line of sight. And

did you have anything you wanted to change there? I don't You know, I just bring it up cuz I Yeah, I'm just thinking of some of the food trucks that are seasonal that I go by. They have those flags. And guess it was last winter there was one actually in a courtyard St. Alvin's and nobody really knew they were there. So they had one of those little flags saying open. Yeah. And it was

I don't think it was in the street, but it was in in their driveway that leads into the courtyard just to let people know that yeah, there's something going on here. Um I can see food trucks wanting something like that potentially, but I think we'd probably try to encourage them to locate in a place where they were visible so they wouldn't have to do that. Um, but our overall theme here is to not give a food truck more than we would give any other business. Um, if you'd like to Well, let's see if we get more food trucks.

They're your regulations, so maybe you tell me if you want something. Well, you got D in there. Request for additional signage or subject. So, that could cover it. Okay. Um, hours of operation. Uh, Rich, I think we changed this just a little bit. I think it [clears throat] had said 9 and 6:30 a.m. and now it says 7:00 a.m. Uh, which is in line with some other parts of our regulations. Yep. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldn't it be from 7:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m.? Shall not. Oh, not operate. That's weird. Why don't you put it the other way around? What would you like it to say?

Mhm. Okay. Double negative. I know. Usually when you say hours of operation that your your mindset is saying okay these the hours you can work between not the ones that you shall not operate between. It's sort of how we handle a lot of them and how I saw a lot of the others written. And I figured there must be a reason for it cuz I think well like for instance we write specs when a contractor can work. Yeah. And gives the hours that he can work. You write it in there. And on weekends what hours he can work.

It's not the hours he shall not operate. It's the hours he can work. Just me. I don't know. We're consistent with everything else or that is that the idea? I think so. I mean, yeah, it's different. You have any thoughts or feelings? Somebody who spends much more time in these regulations than I? I mean, I think it's how some of our other

What else do we have hours of operation for? Um, restaurants, I guess. Bars. No, there's something else I'm thinking of. Um, so the performance standards section does identify a time period of reduced noise for a use from 9:00 p.m. to 7:00 a.m. That's reduced noise. Yeah. And I think that conversation last time, you know, there's some hesitancy about that early hour. The whole Yeah.

phrasing is between 9 and 7. I mean, I think there's probably um some, you know, if it's phrased in the positive about, you know, the hours of operation maybe between 7:00 a.m. and 9:00 p.m. That's I mean, we could say that it just fine. If the purpose is to limit a time where there's not supposed to be any activity depends I think on what you want. Yeah. I don't feel strongly either way. I was just trying to be consistent with Oh, that makes sense. Other ones I've seen and but I don't think it matters.

You're trying to identify the quiet time. Huh. You're trying to identify the quiet time. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But I don't feel strongly if you want to change it. I don't think I feel

legally it doesn't change anything. We could um Okay, I'll move on for now. But um trash and recycling, I don't think we made any changes or had much discussion there. Uh Rich, stopped me at any point. Um I know you want to talk about 11B. Do you want me to jump to that one? We talked about it. I think there was some split uh my my recollection is there was some split feelings and we said we'll wait for Rich to get back and we'll talk about it again. So Rich is back and we're talking about it again.

So I don't remember who felt what way. So, do if you guys want to take a straw poll about portable toilets, we can start with that and then if anybody feels really strongly, you can uh try to get your fellow people on your side. I did ask you we did wait for him for that cuz I think you were kind of like grandchildren and we don't need some other and I'm waiting in line and they say to me, "Papa, we need to go now." Right? I'm standing in that food truck line going, "Uh, right." [laughter] Don't we start with a straw poll so I can sort of discussion?

I don't know. There's just issues with porta. I don't know. I mean, I assume the food truck would pay for that. Of course.

Yeah. I think the reason that that some some regulations don't allow them is cuz they can start to lead to some noxious odors, you know, if you're close to some other uses. Um, it can also start to get towards that permanency factor that we're trying to stay away from. I'm just giving you reasons why you might not want to. I'm not trying to say one way or the other. I'm just thinking most places I think where they would be in Colchester would be near a place where there was a bathroom like airport park or bayside or

so these would not this would not apply to parks in any way. Parks would not be able to obtain this cuz parks are town park in the parking lot at airport park. I'm not saying they couldn't but they would not get this approval cuz parks are town owned land and it's handled completely separately. Um, unless the porta potties, you know, are kept up and sanitized and kept clean, they're not going to have their own personal porta potty. So, whoever they use for they rent them. Yeah.

We'll roll in there and if there's a complaint, that company will be all over taking care of it cuz they don't want to complain either. If you don't put locks on it, then you can get people in there after hours. It they're used a lot on construction sites. There's issues with them. Yeah. You would probably know a lot more about that than Yeah. So, all the portaotties we're putting now on construction sites were requiring them to lock them. Interesting. And that's at like even different types of sites, urban, rural. Most of them have been urban. So yeah,

I don't know about the out in the country might not be so bad, but the urban ones. Yeah. Having a lot of issues. Yeah, the same age, I'm sure. Portaotties with locks on it. I'm okay with that. Non non working hours or whatever. from 9 to 7 a.m. Or you think they could figure out something to log it on the outside when they leave? I'm sure they do. But I think you need a I'm just trying to think where you would have a food truck that they would be near a map. Yeah, but they have they have bathrooms in Christ.

Yeah, but it's a private business in a sense. So you're you're kid that's fine for adults, but when you're between I know I have grandchildren. There you go. Before 10, this could be a problem. Don't know where they would be where they couldn't. That's that part. Okay. Well, like Brianties never had one. Nope. The Brianty's hot dogs. Michigan dogs. They never had a porta body around the corner. Yeah, they did. Did you think they stood there all day without a porta body?

I don't know where they did, but I didn't see one for the public. Becomes that we have to change the porta body uh what is that code? We can't have it over 15 days. That was the reasoning last time. We do have something in our We do have something like that. You can't have it for more than 15 days. So we change that here and they have to change it in the regies al together which is not impossible. You're in the regulations. But yes, we would have to change that section. We do have a section in our wastewater um standards about not being allowed a portable. We might have an exception for construction.

So the regulation Look at him. Allows for portable toilets as a temporary use under 207E6 when they're on a property for less than 15 days in one calendar year. Um, or when they're associated with public parks, [snorts] agricultural operations, or an association uh with construction projects when an improvement building permit. Um, and then they're not subject to the time limitation of the 15. So, could we add a port of body uh permit as part of the building permit when they're drawing for the permit for listing for the season to kind of eliminate that?

If you guys wanted them allowed, what we would probably do is just add it to the list of exceptions. Yeah, it would say portable toilets not allowed except in all those things he said and associated with an approved mobile food unit. Yeah, cuz I mean it's like definitely like you guys are saying not you know every situation you know needs a porta body if there you know certain like areas where you can't have it but if the if there's plenty of area or if it's like an acceptable I guess area for a port body or something like that can we add it into like the permit application of some sort

I think if you want to allow portable toilets to either say yes or no if you leave it up to staff to make a decision as to whether or not they're okay or not, it starts to be problematic. They won't add it if they don't think they need it because it's just another expense. That's one thing.

Just to add a little bit more context here, the [clears throat] found a nice fact sheet from uh the Department of Environmental Conservation and they um require a waste water. So, portable toilets regulated under the wastewater rules. Um, they're allowed on construction sites at events lasting 28 days or less without a wastewater permit. Over 28 days, seems that you would need a wastewater permit for a portable toilet to be on a property. So if you're talking about a season, it's likely that that will also trigger some sort of review under the wastewater section of this set of regulations.

Which mobile food units most probably won't want to go to that hassle? I would assume a big assumption, but so if they go for the wastewater permit, they want to put in port for less than 28 days. States's okay with that. Is that what I understand? A week later they come and put another one, right? But can they do that without our whole permitting and restricting? So we can we restrict a porta body if they go in and the state says yes, you can have it for less than 28 days. We can still restrict it on our end. Okay. Because I know there's a lot of things that you can restrict all kinds of things the states allow. Okay.

So you'd want to restrict it for the food trucks? No, I don't. Okay. But I was just wondering if that's the way they jump through a hoop. They probably just do it so you have to have it like serviced up to 28 days just cuz probably in certain situations. Yeah. So kind of like to regulate that. But it's probably to prevent people from getting around the need for wastewater dealing with the wastewater issue. If you if you need something that's going to be there that long, you're doing an end around for dealing with Mhm. dealing with the waste water. Yeah. That you're generating that you need.

You know, if you start to need portable toilets for 3 months, 6 months, 9 months, maybe you should be dealing with the waste water in a different way. Um, at least they want to evaluate that and say, "Yep, you are fine. you know, you're a mobile food truck who's here for 6 months, that makes sense. But if you're getting a portable toilet because um you're Serita's cupcakes and you just don't want to put in a new toilet for all of your fantastic employees and instead you want to put a portable toilet out back. Yeah. They're going to be like, "No, Serita, give your employees a proper bathroom." Um,

I'm sure if Serita had Serita's cupcakes, she would treat her employees well. Just want to be on the record. You wouldn't be able to get that past the state building code officials either. Yeah. Plumbing inspector would never allow that. So just I imagine that that that's why they want to check in at in 28 days to make sure that Well, I have no problem taking it out. And that means that just any food truck would have to get the wastewater permit in order to get their

portable tot. you know, because I think it's not going to be for everybody, but we haven't had like right now there are by parks or whatever, but if we're friendly enough, we can bring a few in. They may go somewhere that we don't Mhm. anticipate. Maybe some like Thumbill Farm down Route 7. Yeah. You know, a pull off from something that, you know, there's a couple of farms out there, maybe be a nice spot for them to pull in, but they don't have any other facility available. And then we restrict that from happening at all. Mhm. Because it becomes not user friendly. M go ahead.

I just got I don't think a food truck wants to step up to pay for extras if they don't have to. If you're sitting in the park and you've got you don't want to deal with it. You don't want to deal with any of the hassles. I get that you don't want to have to lock up at night, but if you have that opportunity, if you need it, it's there. I think that's where I'm thinking. I would ask yourself a question of can you envision a place where a food truck would locate where they would bring in a portable toilet and you're like, "Wow, we never really we should not have allowed this." And if you can't think of a place like that or a scenario like that and that portable toilets would not be a problem, then I would take it out. But if you think that there might be scenarios where they are a problem, then you probably don't want to allow them. Um, I know it's easy to think about some place like, you know, where Bugantes used to be or um, you know, there's nobody around. There's not necessarily any nearby residents or people working in a business. Um, but what if what if it is near there? Maybe the likelihood of that is also really low. I don't know. Um

because there if you go to North here where Emma's market is across the street, there's this massive barbecue grill thing and that's what they have to cuz they're just by themselves and they sell some famous sheds in the corner, but they have a few portaotties in the corner cuz there's nothing else out there. That's just them. And that seems like a totally fine scenario. I think they do more than one really, you know, and and I can't even think, you know, [clears throat] you know, places where it is a little denser, maybe they're not putting in a food truck because that's already well served. Yeah.

I don't know. Um, but there was like a, you know, I think of there's like a barbecue truck at a place in Essex, too, right there on um Pearl Street. Yeah, they're the ones that had a port potty, but it was really just for the employees, but if you asked nicely, they would let you use it. They had a I never stopped there. Oh, it was good barbecue. They were so randomly open. Like some days like they weren't open and some days they were It was so random. Um you had to be there till before they ran out. You had to be there before they ran out. Yeah. Not so much outside.

Uh I don't think they're there anymore, right? Actually, didn't they build a building on that site or something? Um, you know, but if they had portillots, sounds like they did. They didn't have them for the public. It was back behind, it's behind their trailer is for their employees. But if you ask nicely, they would let you use it. [laughter] But that's a pretty, you know, that's a pretty denser area.

It is. and no issues probably since if most people didn't even know one was there probably not an issue with smell or um visibility or so I I think that's the only reason you would want to keep it in is if you anticipate issues you know aesthetic issues you know other performance issues smell um do you see that being an issue If there are issues, we can take it out, right? I mean, if it's constant is an issue, then we can just change it.

Yeah. And the very slow process that is developing regulation updates [laughter] 50 or 53, who knows? Well, in those regulations that Zach read, does does it say anything about maintenance of these things? No. I mean, for business, I would think they'd want to keep them clean. I would think so, too. I don't think there's Especially if they're the people working there. They don't want to smell it anymore than people living next door. Yeah. Right. All right. I'm going to take a straw poll. Raise your hand if you want me to remove it.

Remove it. remove it from the list of prohibit prohibitions. Sorry, I'm like triple that you would be allowing them. If you raise your hand if you want to allow portable toy, there you go. That's what we Okay, I'm going to remove it from the list of prohibited things. There you go. I'm going to do it. As bad as 97. Sorry. I'll make another recommendation that if you want to add any enforcement language that you assign that to the health officer. Hey, I'm the health officer. [laughter] Um, so I am going to make a note. Zach, what was that section that you were reading earlier with the 207E6?

207 E6. So we will have to change that. Um, as well, thank you Vlad for the reminder. Allow toilets for Okay. So, that'll be in your next set of updates. I'm not going to make that while we talk cuz that's in a whole different section. Um, okay. Move on. Yep.

Okay. Um, we talked for a while about loudspeakers. We all circled the wagons on that, but eventually everyone said, "Leave it. What? What were you saying? Loudspeakers and amplified music. She said something about wagon wheels. Oh, I said we circled the wagon. Ah, that's probably an outdated expression. I probably shouldn't use it. Like the Indians, huh? Um, drive up food service is prohibited. Stranger things have happened. I put it in there.

Well, there used to be a thing of coffee drive up coffees shacks. They were temporary. That was all it was was drive up though. Yeah. There's a place in Utah you can drive up for tacos. It was a big line for tacos. Tacos. It was a huge trailer. It was a line of tacos. Drive-thru. Yeah. So that's interesting.

We don't drive through trucks. There was a place that I stopped at in Canada last summer. It like wasn't qu It was drive up, but not quite like the sense where you pulled up to a window, but it was like a poutine truck in like the parking lot of Canadian Tire. I can't make this up. It's like a true thing. Canadian Tire parking lot and there was a poutine truck. Um, and you could drive up, but you just talked to the there was like a person hanging outside and you gave them your order. It was it was more like a Sonic or A&W type thing and then you parked in a spot and then they would walk your order over to you. So it wasn't like you waited there and they got you your fancy M 10 different kinds you could get taco patina. It was fascinating. Anyway, that was a food truck. Um so it's kind of drive up. We didn't do it. We walked over and sat in the picnic table. Um, okay. Application requirements. I don't think we spent much time talking about it because

that's really good. Yeah, I'm good with it, though. Yeah. Yeah, I think uh we talked about it and you guys basically said make it as easy as possible. So, we'll fix that. Yeah, that's fine. Oh, that was good.

Um, so I will update that actually. I'll clean it up more later, but I'll leave it highlighted, but not for discussion. Um, let's see. Is there anything left that just says what you need to show us? And that's pretty much it for food trucks. Perfect. Thank you. Okay.

All right. Now, let's move on to uh umbrella permits. Unless Rich, there was anything else you want to talk about. A through D. I do not know. Okay. Well, we increased the number of automobiles you could sell on your property in a year. Yep. To three. Okay, that works. That was two meetings ago, though. Yeah. Oh, I thought it was last one. Was not the last one. We talked about it again last time cuz we had a a That's right. Because of the crowd. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, we spent a while talking about it, but we didn't make any changes to the Okay. regulations at all.

Yep. Um, okay. So, umbrella approval. So, this is new since last time. Um, so this is sort of just a first swipe of things we could do to make it easier when tenants change over. Um, right now it's a bit of a process and it's something that we hear from frequently from people. Um, if Sally's hair salon goes out and Bob's hair salon comes in, um, you still have to probably get a site plan amendment and, um, usually most of the time. Um, and basically all that's happened is Sally has left and Bob has come in. and uh it can be a multi-month process. Um and there hasn't really been any other changes. So, um we're trying to make that easier so that Sally and Bob can have a nice easy life with their businesses. Sally's leaving. She doesn't care, but Bob cares a lot. Um, so, um, I do want to focus on this little sentence that just says there there is still valid purpose to review occupancy. Um, because there can be some changes in parking and wastewater needs, traffic impacts for specific use. So yeah, if Sally left from her hair salon and Starbucks wants to go in, um, we'll look at that because Starbucks generates a lot more traffic, has a lot more needs for parking, and maybe even has different access needs. I'm not sure. Um,

so this is not trying to say that turnover of space should never be looked at, but we want to set some things up front to make it easier for folks when that does happen. Um, so I don't have a lot of text right now, but I do have some broad framework. Um, so no more site plan. That's the part that takes a while. Simple zoning permit application. It's the same thing you do when you want to get a shed for your property. Um, submission of a commumulative use table detailing tenants in respective sizes. We already do that for multi-tenant buildings. Approved if the totals of the impacts are below whatever your previous approvals were. Or if you want to do the research and say at some point here's what our highest was and we're still under that cuz some spaces turn over a lot. And if at some point you've shown us that you can accommodate something like a short order restaurant, which is one of our highest impacts, um if you used to be a short order restaurant and now you want to be Sally's hair salon or Bob's um tax office or um whatever else. We want to make sure that you can be all those things because you've already shown that you can accommodate the highest use. So, anything less easy peasy. Um that's the goal of this um for a new property or for those which want to increase um the DRB could seek an approval with the DRB to say hey

I know that I've got this very popular space I own um Water Tower Hill, one of the buildings up there where tenants turn over and I've got 15 tenant spaces or something like that or you know um another strip mall type thing where tenants turn over a lot. Um and I want to make it as easy as possible for all my future tenants. I want a permit up front because I know I've got state-of-the-art wastewater. I know I've got lots of parking. I want a permit up front. um some intensive uses. So, if somebody comes in and they've got a nice quiet tax office with one employee, nobody ever comes in. Um or if somebody comes in with a high turnover, um hair salon, all that's going to be approved. um that would be something that does require you up front to do a lot of work um and go to the DRB and get this umbrella permit for all of these things. Um that sets all of that up front, but going forward smooth sailing, you paid your dues. Um, so this would set up a process for that to happen if you choose to do it. Either when you build a building or if you know that this is just something you're tired of facing and tired of dealing with um, and you just want to take care of and say, "Let me just deal with it now." We would have a process by which you could do that, assuming that your site can accommodate it. Um, or we would figure out what's the most your site could accommodate. And as long as everything else going forward is under that number,

easy peasy. So, it's like setting the maximum speed limit for your car and saying just stay under it. Makes sense to me. So, it's basically saying they can't go over any of the regulations that they've already met. It's only if they stay at or go or stay under go under. Yeah. And septic they they would have to that would have to be permitted if they were going to add Yeah. need more more need more space.

They'd have to show us that. I mean, if it's on-site septic, no matter what, that's a state thing. So, they'd have to get a new permit regardless because that's what the state requires. So, I'm not trying to usurp any power from the state. Um, I think you need a permit when you change a use regardless, even if it's less intense. Um, that's their process. Um, but our process would say that, you know, if your last use required 15 parking spaces and this new one requires 12, you're good.

Okay. Zoning permit. Good. You're you're good. And hopefully we would get to the point where we would record that number of 15 and say at one point you were accommodating that 15. So anything that was your highest approval. Um anything under that is your magic number. Makes sense. That's great. It's [clears throat] not a great idea. Mhm. They'll just come to you directly and this is the new business we're coming. They look down. Yep. Yep. Yep. Looks good. Sign off.

And it definitely requires some work on the applicant side. Um, some [clears throat] work on our side, but hopefully once it starts running, um, it'll make for a quicker process once you get I hope so. I mean, Zach does a lot of this work now. All this work, actually. So, as long as he's on board. Yeah. So generally um a lot of these changes of use are handled through an administrative site plan amendment which doesn't go to the development review board but it still comes with development review board um appeal periods. Yeah.

And review periods and application fees. Um try to be a little faster in our review of them cuz they're simple but there's still some time associated.

Yeah. And um really at that time, you know, we're looking for what's your wastewater capacity, what's your water capacity, where the vehicle trip ends, where the parking spaces, and there's a good number of buildings that are, you know, distant from what they originally were permanent for. you know, they might have had six different tenants, you know, really high use tenants and um now they might have two in the building taking up a little more space and they have so much parking and then someone else wants to come in and we got to go to the got to go to the board tech administrative but you know um I think this language really I think tries to simplify the process on both ends where it can be simplified And you know, sometimes there's going to be some complexity and that'll have to go forward through the district, but some simplicity might might help help parties.

Yeah. I mean I mean it could save as much as you know could save money. could save, you know, even two weeks, three weeks can can make or break a a deal or people looking at spaces. Um, and it and it allows more staff in our office the ability to review um these applications. So, there's the draft text on the first part of that. Um, this doesn't set up the process yet for what would happen if you want to increase your numbers, but all right. Oh, boy. All right. So, all right. Here's what I'm going to do here.

You didn't finish this while I was gone. [laughter] We were here at 10:00. We didn't That was a long meeting. Yeah.

So, here's what I did on this one. Because we went around and round and round so much. Um, and while 98% of the time, that's the way I want to do it. I like a lot of open discussion. I like you giving me the direction. I think because we're I've take we've had so many conversations about this. I've heard a lot of what you've said. Decided to put more text in than usual. you have something to respond to. Um, what's really new in here? So, this text you've had for like the last two meetings. We just haven't discussed it. So, there's nothing new in the text. If you've been reading your packet, there's nothing new to read here. But, as far as discussion goes, what's really new is talking about this is you um yada yada. Why are we doing this? Just so we can be consistent. Everybody's using the same numbers. Um, when we talk about ADUs and we talk about numbers, there's the formula. And the two things to remember in the formula is what number are you starting with to get to the 30% max and what are we using that factors into that 30%. So those are the two things. So I'll call I call it the base calculation for the principal. Um and that was the bulk of our conversation. What is this? What are we calculating this base on? 30% of what? So we talked a little bit I think um Rebecca had this suggestion about habitable floor area. So I ran with that. Um and what I did with that um

so E here is just to match the state um definition um that comes directly um from that. Um, and then I went I'm a little out of space here. Um, then we can't talk about habitable area without um talking about what is habitable area. So for the purpose of this, we're defining habitable area as finished space um per these regulations. So finished space is what actually makes it into the definition section. Um so 30% of habitable area habitable being synonymous with finished. Okay, we can all make arguments that finished space isn't always habitable, but for the purpose of this it is just to keep it simple because we do use finished space in other parts of the regulations. And rather than have two different terms, we're going to use one term um for finished space. Um so because this is really what we're talking about, finished space cuz we talked about, well, what about garages? What about [sighs] basements? What about whether they're finished or unfinished? Or what if it's a barn? What if it's a workshop? What if it's um whatever? Um so finished space. So this comes from our town assessor's office. Actually comes from I think

assessors across the state actually use this. It's pretty common. Um defined as having three of the four components of finish. flooring, wall cover, ceiling, and heat. Um, so you're saying it doesn't have to have heat to be a finished space.

Does not. Not if it has the other three. I My only issue is the garage, including it in the square footage. To me, a garage is not a habitable space. is for vehicles and some garages are pretty big. I think if that's making your ADU even larger, it's it's going to get looking like a big addition to that the original structure. I don't think that's the intent. I think the ADU is going to supposed to be kind of an accessory to the main structure. I think when we I don't disagree with you. I think when we talked about this last time, we talked about you know where does cuz you're going to get 900 square ft no matter what. So 900 ft is 30% of 3,000. 3,000, right? Sure.

So, um, so where are we starting to see things that would create an AU, excuse me, that would create an ADU larger than 900 ft where finished space in this case or or not would be larger than 3,000 square ft. Um, most homes in Colchester are under 3,000 ft² and so they are probably getting that 900 ft² by default for an ADU. Uh rarely do we see it much larger based on the first calculation. Um so what starts to really pump that number up? Is it your standard twocar garage?

No, it's more like the the threec car, fourc car garage. Yeah. The outbuildings. Um, I don't know if you count the out buildings cuz they're not part of the be surprised. Really? [laughter] Not that we do. But it wouldn't be habitable space. Huh? How would out structures sound to me like they're not habitable spaces? Right now, we haven't been using habitable. Um, that's why we're doing this.

Okay. um because we haven't necessarily had a very clear definition. Um the habitable is new. Um and so you know outuildings it's been tricky. I understand my understanding when ADU started a lot of people were converting their existing garage to this ADU. also true.

Uh, and that's kind of where this 900 kind of came from. That that was kind of the size of a twocar garage, and that's what you could make a ADU out of. Um, and is that right? Is 900 about a two-car garage? It's roughly that much. It's like 27 24 a little bit smaller, but it's roughly. I mean, you round it up, it's 900 ft. Um, I never put that together. It's interesting. Not a onecar garage, a twocar garage.

Um, but with there's some houses that don't have garages. So, all their habitable space is in their their house. I think when I think of my house, I don't include the garage as part of my habitable space. I think of as, you know, just the main house, not the garage. I don't know what the assessors think of. Do the assessors include garages as habitable space? So they use the word finished. They use the word finished.

Um so they would count it as finished if it has three of those four things. Now you know flooring to them is like real flooring, not like with concrete or epoxy, okay? Um or whatever that other stuff is. cuz a lot of garages are built now with sheetrock. Yeah. So that would counting

that would count as the um you know wall cover um and ceiling. But most garages probably aren't going to have flooring. So if they have heat might be finished. Although a lot of them don't have it when they first build it and might add them in later. Um, you know, and I think we had an interesting conversation last time, too, because the um there was some fairly strong feelings about like, okay, a garage that's part of your house and looks like it's part of your house. Cuz some houses with their garages are built, especially the ones that are sort of sideloaded, kind of looks like it's all part of your house. And so having an ADU that's still clearly subordinate to that doesn't look like that much. But if you have a garage that's detached and it's already a separate building, it can look like more. This doesn't account for whether or not your finished space is attached or detached. Um, which is something else you could add to your conversation. I know there's some hardy discussion about that. But wouldn't like if for example [clears throat] if it like exceeds or doesn't exceed you can go to a duplex regardless and then you just be looted by wastewater capacity. It's one structure like the setbacks of the yard. So there's always a kind of like a workound on that also.

Yeah, it's a fairly new workaround. Um so yes, a lot of people um who come in starting to talk to us about an ADU. Um I shouldn't say a lot. There's only so many people who talk to us, but a fair amount of people who start to talk to us about an ADU end up going down the path of a duplex. usually because of the principal owner situation I think more than is that fair to say than the size issue because for an ADU you have to live on site the owner has to live on site for a duplex you can rent out both sides um

but you would be limited to 900 ft at that point correct so just kind of like with the feet yeah that's a new one yeah and overthinking that

yeah um the difference though to keep in mind is that a duplex has to have a shared wall. Um so anyone whose interest so that's the downside to some folks. So people who are interested in like a guest house or a guest unit or something that's detached whether because they have a large property or they just don't want a shared wall. Um a duplex won't work for them. Um because your duplex has to be in the same structure. Um, so [clears throat]

finished space definition though, if you have two garage doors, doesn't that kind of eliminate that? It wouldn't be a finished space with two big garage doors on it, would it? You're wasting your heat energy, that's for sure. Still a garage. Yeah. I mean, if I want a garage, I could get it if the whole garage is finished and then it's no longer a garage. or if it's a garage for space between the right doors. Yeah. I've never Have you ever had long conversations with our assessor about garages?

I haven't. Um I did pull up an assessor's card while we were talking and um it seems like and you know a newer build uh garage is listed not under living area, it's under floor area. Um, so I think they do draw some sort of distinction between the two regardless of, you know, whether or not the space is heated. And I mean, I have no problems eliminating garage. Definitely think should be part of the main building. Yeah, there's no doubt, right? We don't want to bring the whole thing in.

No problem taking in the space of the garage. If it's not a finished garage like they don't get the space. Okay. They don't include the space. Living space. Finished space. Y I don't see a finished space with two garage doors. That this definition would still it doesn't eliminate that. Exactly. Yes. That's the problem. I I just know whenever I do the calculations to do an ADU, I've never included the garage.

Never ever. It's always come down though is to finish basement because there's terms, you know, you can't put bedrooms in a basement if it doesn't have the egress requirements. So, sometimes basement habitable and there's always the question, do you include those? And it takes a lot of discussion with the the local zoning. Um but when you think of you know finish first floor, finish second floor, it's straightforward. I was trying so hard to not overthink this.

I know I just going down that road to it's it's hard to define it

because I I think you know the goal the goal of this is simple. I think the goal is that, you know, whether or not somebody builds an edu that's 900 square f feet or,00 square feet, you know, I I I can't imagine we would even notice from the road. You know, the the the thing that we're really weary of is when you you do have a property where you you do have the sort of nickel and dimming where you do have the four or five car garage that somebody wants to add in. You have the the outuilding that sure that's finished. we put up, you know, sheetrock in it and or they might have the um or it might already be a really really really large house to start with. Um and then they add in even more things and so your ADU um now starts to be 2,000 3,000 square feet like larger than most people's principal unit. Um, and so if that just happens naturally because the house itself is 9,000 ft, it's still clearly subordinate

when the house becomes the EU essentially at that point.

Yeah. But if your 3,000 foot ADU only exists because we're yanking in everything into the Plato, um, what would restrict you for someone coming in with a house plan that, you know, their existing house and they want to add a large addition and maybe have it so that it could be a a future in-law suite. But it's not really an ADU. Are there are there mechanisms there that they could someone could come and do a large addition like that and not fall fall under the ADU? You know what I'm trying to ask?

Not really. Sure. Okay. like we would I mean if somebody has the the land um and the wastewater capacity assuming that this large addition comes with any bedrooms um to put on a large edition then we're going to permit their large edition right um good for them um whether they rent out that addition

yeah I mean I think it's happening now really um the only thing that you know that catches it for us is, you know, when we see that second kitchen. Um, and and you know, sometimes when things are inside the structure, you know, again, that's it's not even visible to most people. Um it's the sort of endound where somebody who does not have the density to put a second whole unit now puts a very large second whole unit. Um and really it doesn't meet the spirit you know of what was being intended here. Um can you have some discretion? Can you put in does everything have to be defined or can you say at the discretion of the

Well, I mean, we want to define it. You know, that's the problem. We want to make sure we're consistent. We can, but can you have a caveat that says I mean, you you could say flat out if you want. Garages shall not count, period. Or the the garage space. I I mean, I wouldn't say garages. I would say the garage, the part of the garage where vehicles are parked cuz people do a bonus rooms and Oh yeah. Yeah. You know that they consider their garage. Um [cough] um but there would have to be finished space. So I mean it would have to be like

Yeah. You don't have to pursue this that I've written here unless you think it's valuable for the basement conversation. um you know or you could really go simple and say finished basement per um section 4.2 of CLA Court of Ordinances um shall count uh when calculating base size. Unfinished basement shall not or you can say all basements count. Um I mean I think when it comes down to it whether you're counting basements or not isn't going to change anything. So, I probably encourage you to feel comfortable counting basements regardless. Mhm.

All I can think of is the old farmhouse with the dirt floor and rock stone foundations. Are there still a lot of those? There's a lot of spiders. Oh, god. Yeah. [laughter] I grew up in one of those. Space. No. So, maybe you get away from finished space and you just say basement shall count. um the area where you park a car lot cuz I think I keep hearing that from you guys. I think we're having a hard time saying it but that's what I'm hearing. I definitely think that's what we mean. You're thinking we just can't quite get down right. Yeah.

So do I think you're pretty close on just that little piece of the

We could scrap this all together if this is not helpful. All I can say is is, you know, I look at an example that I did in St. Albins. It was a two-story Victorian. Uh the basement was, as I described, not really habitable, some dirt floor, stone foundation. They did finish the attic, so it became habitable. So with the three stories, it was almost 5,000 square ft. just the three floors, not counting the basement. There was no garage. So, we were able to get a good size ADU on that piece of property. It was tight. Property wasn't that good, but it was doable.

Oh, what's the math on that, Zach? 150 ft. Huh. Like, ft. It was getting It's over that. I think it was a twobedroom ADU with uh that's a lot of square. Two bathrooms, kitchen, dining area, living area, living room area, and a shared No, a shared laundry room. Was it a um detached ADU or Huh? Was it a detached ADU? No, it was attached. Okay. Was it part of that 6,000 ft? it once you put it in or was the total

let's say if the house had a garage it was it was in the place where garage would most likely be but it also had kind of a a small attachment to the rear of the house where it had a shared laundry room that was kind of the buffer between the the two units and it it was the parents were make wanting to make the ADU their space and their daughter and her family could move in to the main house. So, it was a family thing, but it was still technically a ADU, but we did not count the the basement. It was only the living spaces.

It's a big ADU. 30 by 50, 1500. Yeah, it was getting pretty big as it is. Yeah. But the house justified it, I guess. Yeah. As long as you're keeping a living area, main house. Yep. They can add up the numbers.

It sounded like in this thing you included like porches and stuff to be included in that. We didn't include any exterior spaces in the square footage countage countage. Okay, so the state definition says habitable area.

So there's two items here. There's the conversation about finish space and then there's the change to habitable floor area from gross floor area which is in the current regulation. M. So we have to keep that no matter what. So this part, let me make it bigger for you guys. So I think no matter what we have to keep this part here, this change in the definition because that matches the state definition.

Yep. um total habitable floor area, but we still need to define habitable in some way um to make it clear. It's to everybody's benefit and applicants, staff to know what habitable means. Um, so I think this finish space definition is not working cuz it sounds like it will start to include garages, which we don't want. So I'm going to get rid of I'm just going to do this while you watch. So included in the base calculation of the principal dwelling unit shall be all habitable areas. Duh. Defined per these regulations. Um, and we'll do that I'll do that later. Um, but we'll talk about it tonight. For the purposes of calculating habitable areas for ADUs, oh, so we did talk about this only contiguous. We'll get rid of finished. But what this does when we use the word contiguous is it means you're detached. garage or your detached something is not going to count.

See, I think the attached garage shouldn't count either. So, right, that's the goal. I haven't written it yet, but as an example, I think this language [clears throat] if there was say a breezeway connecting a dwelling unit to a garage that maybe had some finished space above, you know, sort of excludes that area because it was only connected by a breezeway, which is not finished space. I'm sorry, I didn't hear the but some breezeways are. So I Yeah, but you're right. It's an outdoor screen porch type thing. It's not really a habitable space. Yeah. So, for example, if you have a main house, principal house, and then you had an out building, and this happens more than you might think.

Mhm. Um maybe it was a a detached garage once upon a time, maybe it was a barn, maybe it was something. And uh you're working hard to get your base calculation up cuz you want a great big ADU. and you finish that space and you've created more living area. It's a wreck room. It's an office. It's a she shed. It's whatever you want it to be, right? But you have to get a permit to do that. Yeah. Let's say you've gotten your permits.

Um maybe it's a garage on the bottom. Um it's not really part of your house. um but it's nearby whether it's connected by a breezeway or whether it's standalone this would make clear that that space does not count because it's not contiguous okay um so even though you're finishing off everything you can think of in your yard um it wouldn't count okay it's really what is in that principal unit not your pool house that you've now converted did not

whatever other structures you have going on. Um it's I agree with that one. Yep. Um but we get rid of the finished space. We'll say only contiguous habitable space. Um, unenclosed and unin unhabitable. Un inhabitable. I don't know the word there. We'll figure that out later. I I think it's a double negative there.

Uninhabitable. Yeah, I got to I got to think that one through. [laughter] Um, sounds right. It sounds so wrong to me, but I don't know. uh such as decks, porches, patios, pools, garages. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. [clears throat] I agree. And similar shall not be counted in the habitable floor area calculation um of an ex I think they want finished basement. Sunfish.

Oh yeah. Uh decks porches that we have not even cared. That's unfinished basement. God, believe it. Oh my goodness. I'm going home, guys.

Yeah. Well, the other thing with unfinished basements, I mean, there's the one I described, the old farmhouse, but you also get new houses built with a with a basement that people either don't finish off when they they first buy the house or first build the house, but they have future plans to finish it. I guess they'd have to finish it first if they wanted a larger ADA. You leave the basement off. It's It's a tough one. It's not really havable. I mean, you have one that isn't. Yeah. I don't think they're going to make or break anything. I don't think so. But I'll leave that up to you as a policy thing. I'll take the basement out. Show hands.

Finished. I can see certain scenarios where the finished basement is part of the habitable space. I think I agree. I just finished my basement. It's a tough one. But if it's unfinished, you don't want them counting it. Is that what I'm hearing? I I'm hearing from Vlad, it doesn't matter if it's finished or not. Is that Yeah. Is that accurate? If they have to pretend to be. What do you guys feel about unfinished basement? Part of the house. Part of the house. Because now we're going to get real detailed here. Yeah. You should finish basement. You make one of the three. Part of the house. Everything, you know, gets alo now you got to go visit the place. All sorts of stuff. And you probably are going to finish. All right. I'm taking some.

Yeah. So you might I hate to throw a wrench in here as you know the zoning administrator interpreting this but you might have to add a sentence about what does count if you do want unfinished basements to be included in the calculation or just because it wouldn't be intuitive to include a basement as habitable floor area if it was unfinished.

If it's unfinished. Yeah. I don't think it would add that much to square footage of the house or the total square footage calculation. Having a basement whether it's finished or not, I don't think it's going to add more than 100 square ft to an ADU realistically. Yeah. Most basement, but some are very large. So, you're saying just add a statement. Is that what I'm hearing? I think reflecting the planning commissions. Okay. you know, saying a basement's a basement. It's very holiday like. Look at our green and red. And um on the red house, the neighbor is living down there ever. It's not dirt floor, but pretty [laughter] rough.

But it won't add that much to the calculation. Yeah. And another question that probably doesn't help here is uh how do people feel about tall crawl spaces? Yes, that's a crawl space. That's a crawl space. Not a basement. Do we have a definition of basement? We don't. And full full basement. That's rough. Non crawlspace basements. I don't basement there just some basements that are not habitable. I just would not count on that. I don't know how you differ between them. Well, wait a second. Wait, wait, wait. I don't think so. People live in. I suppose

this is what B is for. One has the potential the other will I would never live there. There we go. We do have a fun graphic in appendix B about the difference between a seller and a basement. There's a difference on I believe it's the difference of where the grade is at. I didn't use the word seller anywhere. [laughter] Am I supposed 1950? What's a seller? Wow. Wow. A seller is if A is less than B.

Duh. What is A and what is B? Even our architect is like what? What? Basically, if your height below grade is greater than your height above grade. Sorry, it's it'd be a lot easier if we were looking at appendix B, but this is not actually related to crawl spaces or basement. I know. Maybe we'll have to table this one. Give this one some more thought cuz I just know some basement should not be included cuz there's just no way they're ever going to be habitable. But there's potentially other basements

that are left unfinished for a reason that it would be converted in the future. So yeah, I know exactly what you're saying. I don't know the words to go with it. Yeah. Inhabitable basements, but I was I guess if they're if they're not finished yet, they're not habitable yet. Yeah. Sounds and basement with flooring. Okay. Does that do it? Anything about my I have a full basement. Uh-huh.

There's one room in the basement that's closed off. Use it as an office. It's the only space that has sheetrock, carpet, a ceiling, and heat. Sure. So, that's a finished space. It's in the basement. Yeah. The rest of it, I wouldn't count it as habitable space. It's habitable. You can go hang out down there. You live. You'll survive. But yeah, but Okay. And I would say my basement potentially could be all finished, but right now it's just one portion of it that would fit the definition of finished space. We're going to get rid of finished space. I think it's not helpful.

So something I tried but did not find helpful. I would say my basement would be potential because it has a solid floor, concrete slab. Mhm. hash either has concrete walls up to a certain point and then it's well it's just a wood seal. I'm throwing spaghetti at the wall for now but just to hold space but yeah I guess we could finish the whole basement. It could be a wreck area. Does it have two points of ease? I mean even can't sleep down there. Yeah, but I think every room now has to be

even if it's storage area. I don't know. It's a functional part of your house. If you had a bedroom down there, you'd have to have a means of egress escape. So, that means creating like a window well or something if you really wanted to do that. Um, be illegal to put a bedroom down there. Is office? No. No. It's an office. It's definitely office, but the people we bought it from used it as a bedroom. They they got away with it. Um,

I'm just is this are we talking about like a one in a 1% chance of something happening or I I'm not sure what the concern is about I think we're just trying to make sure that whatever language we use it's very easy whether I pick it up whether um um you like what's the worst case scenario if we just just said basement

you guys Kirk from our office has left our office. He's moved on to other employment. If you knew him, sorry, you don't get to say goodbye. He's gone. Um, but if the next person who replaces him picks up this and gets an application, he's able to tell very quickly. Yeah, we want that person. We want me. We want Zach. We want whoever to pick up the regulation. We want

Rich if he decides to do it. Although I know he feels, you know, you know, if he wants to do an ADU that it's very clear to him as he's putting that calculation together that when he's bringing us numbers, he knows what he's bringing us. Mhm. Um so it's just to be very consistent, to be very transparent and um very predictable so any person in any part of town knows upfront what counts. So if we put basement, it should be pretty straightforward though. [clears throat]

Should be pretty obvious. Yeah, I think I think it's a pretty rare case like Rebecca's talking about with I've been in a lot of basements. [laughter] There's a lot of there's Yeah, there's some that there's basements are notorious for old basements for water leakage. I mean, it's just there's just there there's a lot of basements that are just no way. Well, let me clean this language up and bring it back to you next time. How's that sound? Okay. Yep. We're starting to go in a few circles, but I think we're closer. Did you have something [clears throat] you wanted to add?

No, I was going to say just for consistency that I think ADU calculations are where we spend the most time with homeowners who are trying to figure out what they can do. Yeah. And I understand Emily's out sick and I'm trying to help someone pick up a conversation. I don't have to think about how Emily would interpret it. I think it's easier if we're all on the same page.

Um, not to say that we disagree on things, but sometimes there's some really wacky situations like an ADU that someone withdrew an approval for, but it was like 3,400 ft. So, not to say that anything you're doing would change that. This is a very large principal building, but you know, it starts getting a little big. Oh, yeah. That helps to know that you deal with it a lot. And did that one count the garage? So I while we're talking, I pulled up the plans. The garage is not actually that big, but it did. Yeah, you did. Yeah.

So right now, just to be clear, the language says gross floor area, which pretty explicitly includes garage. Yeah, that's different. Yeah. So just to defend myself that wasn't trying to I wasn't being insulting. I didn't mean to be I agree. I mean you know looking at every town's approach to ADUs it it is hard to sometimes define it and sometimes I'm amazed what they can include.

Some towns get very expensive but they go beyond the minimums in state statute. So it is really truly town by town a different different regulation. If only we knew some legislators. I think we want housing. You know, I'm just knowing that we want housing. So how do we make that? Well, if you ever bring this actually I I keep hearing maybe you guys hear differently that there will be discussions on whether or not ADUs will be allowed for duplexes or mandated for duplexes. People keep talking about bringing that up. Say that again. If they be mandated.

Right now, the state law is that ADUs um have to be associated with single family dwelling units. A town can if they want allow them with duplexes or whatever they want, but the state law does not require that. But

for the better part of 5 years, I keep hearing it's going to come up next year and it never does. We know about housing. I'm not necessarily saying I advocate for. I'm just saying I keep hearing that that's something that I feel like ADUs get touched every single year. And I wonder what next year's change will bring cuz it they seem I I I can't think of a single legislative year where ADUs have not been touched. Um, so

I just read that Lennox Mass now uh had just has just started permitting separate buildings on people's lots. That's a house like a little house, like a little cottage. So, it's not attached to the house in any way. It's a separate building. But they just started permitting that. But isn't that an ADU? Yeah. Well, I thought it had to be No, it doesn't have to be a tad. You have your choice. Oh, okay. I'd say we see a mix. Yep. You see a mix. Okay. Is that the continu continuous? That was the base calculation.

Gotcha. But you can you can put it anywhere you want. Gotcha. I shouldn't say anywhere. Don't put me on record. A tiny house in your backyard. Yeah. But yeah, you could put it in a but I thought that was interesting. You could put it in a standalone unit. You could put it within your unit. You put it in your garage. Um so that the extra feet then need some thought. Yeah. The extra space. Yeah. So I think we're agreeing about the garage that don't include garage is this whole definition in the basement. Yeah. what can be included.

Yeah. And super quick, this next thing was just to we had one long sentence that talked about what was involved in the calculation and they sort of ran together and you start to when you had too many um pronouns, you couldn't quite tell what they were talking about. So, I pulled them apart. Calculation of the principal, calculation of the resulting. So, this actually doesn't change the policy um but it basically says any structure um principally used by the ADU. So if you have a detached garage, onecar garage with um an ADU above it and the person who lives in that ADU parks in that one car garage, that's part of their ADU and it has to count.

Oh. that part as part of their living space if they are using it. So that in let's say the 900 square ft that space has to be included in the 900 square feet. I've never interpreted an ad there cuz

cuz 900 square ft it's hard enough to get a decent onebedroom unit, right? So imagine this though. If you create a 900 ft² unit and then put a fourc car garage on it and then say all those garages are for over there um or two-car garage. Um I would just say a garage is not part of the ADU. A garage is a separate unit you got to get a separate permit for. I don't know. you still get a separate permit, but if your

ADU starts to become less subordinate because now you're attaching some garages to it. Think about how much you can grow. I know, but think of the size of a garage. A onecar garage. Think of two. It's another 900 ft. No, it doesn't leave much for the ADU. The living space is what I'm thinking of. Mhm.

I mean, yeah. One car garage, you know, 8 foot opening for the garage door, 2 ft on either side. It does, but I think 12 by 20, at least minimum 22.

The idea is that this is supposed to be clearly subordinate and clearly extra, not a whole. I just don't think that formula is going to work. Nobody has to have two car garage, right? So, if you have if you have somebody that's already getting 1,200 ft in their ADU, which is not unheard of, right? I'm thinking of like the 900 one or even 900.

That's where the it's going to be tough to get a garage one let's say one car garage and an ADU on the second floor. You're not It's only if they're the one using it. Huh? Only if they're the one using the garage. Most ADUs are not coming with garages, right? But every time you're adding a garage bay, it starts to make that bigger and you're less and less subordinate. I mean, this is these are supposed to be little cottage units.

Yeah, I I don't think any are going to meet the the requirement if they want the space, but yeah. Okay. Yeah, we can circle back on this, but I think the idea again is especially if you have singlestory living, you have a two-car garage and your 900 ft of living. That's a pretty bulky starts to get to be a pretty bulky unit, right? Does that still look like it's the the 30% of what's supposed to be associated with the principal?

Oh, yeah. I I think that if somebody's building something like that still, I mean, they can just apply for the you know, if the lot supports the setbacks and everything else in the size of the structure, they can always go for a duplex permit or, you know, I mean, some some sort of a subdivision. If they're doing multiples of those if they're attached, I mean, more likely what's going to happen is it's going to be a unit over a garage. They're going to tell us the garage is used by the principal unit. We're never going to go out and we're not going to care. Right. Right. I mean, I had Yeah, that's more likely what'll happen. Yep. Um that's exactly what's going to happen.

But it'll encourage people to go up instead of out, which is good. I think it's a good thing. Sure. Um and that actually happens a lot. It's very common for an ADU to be above a garage. Yeah. Um whereas I think if you start to have this like California ranch sort of more sprawling. I have an ADU. Oh my gosh. To cargo above. Mhm. You do you have a permit? [laughter] I didn't realize there was a kitchen in it and but there was all the plans that I submitted and they park underneath. Um my son Yeah. Me and my son do. Yeah.

So he parks in one part of it. Yeah, but it's it's nice, but it's small. Yeah. Yeah. About all we can get out of this. Yeah, I think so. All right. I think we're good. We're not done. Done though. Yeah, we're not done. Done. I'll keep that in mind. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

Fix move. Finished. Okay. Okay, I just got to make myself a note because tomorrow my brain will be different. Um, pretty big like is that the attachment right there? Check them out.

I'm loading again. Sorry. Wi-Fi is pretty bad. Seems to be not loading. Oh, is that why they slow disappeared? Yeah, it seems like our Wi-Fi is it's in and out. Uhhuh.

What do we have left? Parking standards. All right. Parking standards.

Castro. That's true. Okay. I think these can be quick. Let's see. Parking standards. All right. Quick rundown on this one. We currently have a um in our parking standards, we have a use for shopping center. Basically what it says is like look there's the shopping center effect people will come they'll park they'll go to multiple things. So rather than dillydally with the if you go to Creek Farm Plaza or the um where the Starbucks and the Super Cuts or something over there is shopping center it's called shopping center. We can assign a parking number to that whole thing. And going back to the theme of tenant turnover, it's the number that's set for that square footage for that place. Yay. We don't have to look at parking when tenants turn over. Yay. Um, now it does mean that if you've got particularly low uses, they might be at a disadvantage because the number might be higher. But if you've got particularly high uses like the Starbucks for example, they might be at a advantage because we only ask for five instead of nine or whatever. Um so it evens out. So that's already happening. Already have the shopping center. Um which is wonderful. Yay. Um so that's already in place. Um, recommendation one though is that we create that also for office buildings. Um, which we'll get to. Uh, maybe this

is not as quick as I thought it would be. Sorry. So similar thing, you take an office building and you say we're going to pick a number for it and whether or not within that office building, it is a yoga studio or it's a accountant or general office um or medical office. Here's the parking that's associated per thousand square ft with that office building from here till eternity with set office building. Now this is for multi-tenant office buildings. Um if it's a single tenant office building it would be whatever that tenant is. Um so similar thing we just keep it simple nice and simple and it would be sort of an average.

Um and I get to that down below. Recommendation number two to solve some parking woes. Uh remove or adjust the restriction that says the number of parking spaces on a property shall not exceed 110% of the required number. This really becomes a problem when that required number is small. If you are only required to have 10 parking spaces, you change a tenant and now you have 12. Guess what? You have one too many.

I agree. Take it out. It was confusing to me. I've never heard of this before. [laughter] Um, so you are out of compliance if you had 12 parking spaces and now you need less because your tenant use has changed to something that requires less. Um the board has um I think maybe I shouldn't assign feelings to them but reluctantly you know asked sometimes for them to be painted over so that that parking doesn't exist to just trying to be in compliance with this. Um, and it's real awkward. It's a real awkward conversation to say, "Hey, I know you these already exist. They're there. But, uh, you have three too many. Paint over the yellow lines." That doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Doesn't make any sense to me either. So, I'm proposing to fix it. Um, and then build greater flexibility. See below. Okay. Shopping center. This is what I talked about. Office park. So, here's the new regulation. Um, bear with me. Office Park. So, I had to create a definition because it doesn't exist. Um, and no, not you can't just put anything in there and call it an office park. Um, I try to be reasonable here. Um, cuz these are things that are generally kind of close to each other. You know, you can't have a demolition center and believe, you know, call yourself an office park. You can't be a um 100% a radio or a um restaurant and call yourself an office park. Um so um pretty similar uses though. Medical office, radio, TV studio, financial institution, banks, personal. It's kind of what's represented already in our sort of office park business zoning districts. Water Tower Hill

restaurants being allowed a small ones I think uh restaurants following uses provided they don't exceed 2,000 square gross floor area each. So you could have a small one if it services Mhm. what's there. So, if you want to put a small coffee shop in to ser like really small 2,000 to service, it could count, but it's not meant to be I'm opening a Chili's, right?

Um, and taking up an entire ground floor of an office area. Um 2000 might still be really small, but I was going to say if it's if if it's an office park, you're saying so it would service just the office park. I mean a lot of big companies now have their own restaurant coffee areas that get pretty big. Yeah, I think that would probably be more if it's only servicing the employees, it's probably just a cafeteria. you know, and wouldn't count towards that at all. It would probably be as big as it needs to be.

Um, and this is not meant to just be really large things. It could be something like, um, I use it as an example all the time, the one down on Primro just just as you turn onto Primro, there's that four-story building. It's got a name I ask you every time. Colonial something maybe. What story? Green building. It's just past like where the little daycare and the nail salon. Oh. Oh, okay. I know what you're talking about. Yeah, it's like a three or four story building. Yes, I know what you're talking about. So, like that. But that's that's just all offices, right? But it's multiple offices. So, I would want them to benefit from this as well. Okay.

So, if they wouldn't have they could have one parking requirement, three and a half spaces. So, if you want to change over from a chiropractor to a um yoga studio, it doesn't matter. Yep. Cuz honestly, it's not it's we're talking one or two spaces. It's more work for us and them. Just set it and forget it. That's my theme. Yeah. [clears throat] Better painting over parking spaces. Um [clears throat] sounds good to me. Yeah, sounds good. Sound good? Good idea. Yep.

Enough to get it started. I went with three and a half. Um, that is slightly more. Oh, I didn't give you guys. I could show you later. I'll show you the next time around. Um, I believe 3 and 1/2 is what office requires now. It's less than medical, but more than at least one or two of those other ones that are in there. So that just cover should cover all pre-existing whoever's out there now. You know what I mean? You're not going to be saying, "Oh, too hot, too low or whatever." You're going to be just like kind of fit in. So we're good, right?

You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? Like you got your 50 parking spots, you came up with this new regulation about 45. We're not We're going to be a little more generous. Is that what you're talking about in the 3.5? You're making it so everybody's I mean everybody's will be grandfathered or vested as to what they have now. But if somebody says I want to I guess I'll have to think that through. I want to be redd designated. They'll probably have to go to the DRB if it's a and get their site plan amended to say I want to be an office park. Okay, that I think that's the only way to do it.

Okay, that that works. And then they become an office park and the only work that actually has to get done is we take a look at their parking. Yeah. If the building is Yeah. 10,000 ft times 3.5, that's the amount of parking they would need. And then we rewrite their decision to see whether or not they meet that 3.5. Yeah. So the 3.5 would be a minimum. That's the minimum. They wanted one or two over. That's not a problem. That's just a minimum. It's only a problem if you don't change that other part about no more than 110%. Oh,

for existing. But for new. But for new. Yeah. So, we're still working through that. I don't think I gave you new language on that yet. Did I? No. So, an office park is is only existing buildings. No, it could be a new one. Okay.

Sorry, I did not propose anything for you yet on number two. Um, so we'd have to fix number two in tandem with this. So if somebody had somebody wanted to go through this process, they had 83 spaces and this new calculation only required 50. They're more than 110% over. So, the other fix also has to be in place because currently they're not allowed to be more than 110% over. Is that what you were asking? No.

Yeah, but you the first example you gave was like you had 10 parking spaces and you really needed 12, but you that put you over the 110%. Yeah. Forget the office park side. I'm talking all parking things at the same time and I think that's I'm sorry if I'm oh that we're talking about too many issues. So in general no matter where even if it's not office even if it's a school educational institute or movie theater whatever it is no matter where it is

I see you are not allowed to have more than 110% of the required number of parking spaces no matter what your use is. Okay. So, if your requirement was 50 parking spaces, you couldn't have more than 55. Correct. And that really, you know, it's one thing when you're building it, you build 50 parking spaces or you build 54 parking spaces, but when you have a change in occupancy, a change in tenant, it might be now your requirement is 40, but you just built 50, right?

You see where I'm going? Yeah. They should be grandpa. bothered, right? And now I have to say, Rebecca, you're breaking the law. Get rid of some. Yeah. We've had this conversation years ago. But yeah. Yeah. So, as soon as you only require 50, 40, and you have 50, you're breaking the law. But you should be grandfathered because it's already existing. But you're not. That's just very confusing. So, um, you got to get rid of some,

but but the other way around, if you had a building and you had 40 parking spaces, change of use, all of a sudden now you need 50, you have to add 10. You have to add 10 or ask for a waiver. Yeah. If you didn't already have one. Uh, yeah. I I don't see any reason to just to clarify sometimes the RV can require additional parking spaces beyond the minimum amount in the table. Oh, have they? And they've done that. For example, the school comes to mind. The school does need parking for their employees. They need parking to facilitate drop off so people are clogging up the roads. So,

they present a justification to the DRB. The DRB has some paper forwarding for that. But there are some situations where the property owner is like, "Really, you're going to make me remove one space? I have no justification for this space other than that this regulation doesn't allow me to have it." And then we're all sort of looking at each other like, "But do you need it?" You know, like, "But are you taking it away?" I mean, you know, are you going to take it away? It's going to cost them money to take it away. Take it away. So it's kind of addresses those smaller um

yeahpecially there's really no justification but there's also no justification to remove it right you know 10% is more lenient with a larger number because there's more flexibility but 10% of 10 yeah it's your margin of error is one so and there's a great many sites It's we're only talking 10 to you know where we're the number of required parking spaces is in the single or teens. So it's tough. All right. Um this one I think can be really quick.

Wait, are we are we doing anything with that 110% like the person I didn't present a solution. I only gave you the problem. Okay. [laughter] Bad problem. No solution yet. Apparently, that's how I roll. I gave you three problems. Something to think about. I presented a solution for one of them. Okay. I I still owe you more solutions. Okay. Yeah. That one I I just like here's the problem. Do you want to fix it? But I didn't tell you how to fix it. Um Okay, last one. This one is brand new since we talked last.

Um, but it's an important one. Uh, I'm going to let Zach talk to you about this one.

Okay. I'll try to make this exciting for 9:10 p.m. Um, right now the development review board, if you come in for a site plan application, um, minimum landscaping cost budget is 3% of the project cost. So 3% of your project cost needs to be dedicated to landscaping. Wow. And applicants are reasonable. They you know I guess proposed in landscaping here it is. Uh there are two conditions that come with that. First of which is that you install your landscaping prior to getting a certificate of occupancy. Um before all of that, before you can get a building zoning permit, you need to provide shity for the landscaping a 3% cost. Um all 3% costs. So we'll enter into a landscape improvement agreement with homeowner, developer, really anyone who goes for the development review board for some reason. Um the top

I didn't even touch it. Sorry, my hands are in my pockets. It's a ghost.

And ultimately your options at that point, you need to provide 110% charity up front. So, you know, your 3% cost plus, you know, 10% um goes into an escrow account that the town will set up for you. uh or we could receive a letter of credit uh or some sort of bond perhaps another shity instrument I haven't heard of but generally those are the three um most smaller projects do an escro account uh when projects complete the landscaping is installed we'll go out we'll look at the landscaping say great looks good we'll reduce it down to 10% and hold it for 2 years we hold 10% for two years go back out make sure everything's survived um and then release all my to them. So, it's a very long-term obligation for all landscaping that the developer review board has anything to do with. Um looking back at the last 5 years, the um there's been over 30 of these to manage. Um and there might have been more actually I just pulled 30 that were easier to find. um that had been fully closed out. Um they range in value from $600 up to $200,000. Um a little over half or under $15,000. And anything to do with under $15,000 is in a town escrow account, which means that I have to send a check to the treasurer. Treasurer sets up the account at the bank and basically we kind of have to do a lot of back and forth to do anything with that money. there's fees along the way that the account also has to pay to maintain those accounts. Um, and ultimately sometimes there are situations like that $600 escrow I mentioned when that one

tree that cost $600 was planted, we reduce it down to $60. And I can't do much with $60 if something goes wrong. So sort of you lose for some of these smaller improvements, there's sort of a loss of some of the effectiveness of that warranty period. Um so the language proposed to you here sort of sets a floor at $15,000 to where some of these larger landscaping improvements um still require shvy. smaller ones we're looking for at a time of a certificate of occupancy and it's still a requirement for the project. So if somebody cuts it down the next day still in violation, you know, just go through that a different way. Um and this does not include anything to do with the other shity that we require for public roads or um storm water improvements really anything else. You know, for example, down the road, um Blakey Meadows newer project went through a larger um letter of credit process to make sure we have shity for those public improvements. Um this sort of I think relaxes a requirement for for example um well I don't know if actually if this one comes to mind but a commercial fit up that you know required some foundation clings I didn't even know we had this.

I know. So the moral of the story is it's a lot of work. There are fees associated with it at the bank. It's not just work for our department. It's also work for the town clerk who is our town treasurer. Um and we actually have to maintain separate bank accounts. Yeah. For every single escro. I read it. I mean it doesn't seem like it's a issue.

Um so I have just just to be clear I've talked to our town clerk treasurer um and she's so on board with this. Um, on top of that, if we change banks at any time, which we sometimes do, you have to roll over not just whatever accounts already exist for the town to operate, but all of these. So, it's all the additional account. It's just extra extra extra work. And as Zach said, sometimes those accounts have $60 in them. Pulling $60 isn't going to put a leaf back on a tree. Um, that makes sense. I'm all for it. I mean,

I I'm glad that we have this in there that the the developers or the owners are held accountable for landscaping. Yeah. And I think that, you know, the ones that this is really going to affect are the people who are doing very small projects. And I think they're going to be really grateful because it's because sometimes there are also people either very small business owners or very small developer. I mean people who are doing $600 worth of landscaping. They're like what I have to do what what's an escrow? You know what what is this improvement? Do I have to get an attorney? Does my attorney have to look at it? And then their $600 balloons because if they do get an attorney, it's just not worth it. Yeah. For two trees,

right? So, um I think it this is a win for small developers and small business owners, too. I don't think both. Yeah. There you go. That's a simple one. Plus, lots of taxpayer money. I mean, we carry the burden of the fees on these. We don't pass the fees along. Yeah. I mean the I alone contractors and we always retain 10% at the end of the project we have a punch list and landscaping normally is on that punch list and we'll put the value to it and we'll double it. They don't get paid

that amount until they finish it. So, but that's a contractor. Yeah. So, we we put it on the contract to get the job done. I got you. Interesting. So you're you're ensuring it for the owner and developer to do it. Yeah. So we can do instead of 110% do 200%. Yeah, you could. I knew that. That's 200% for the whole project. It's not just the landscaping. It's whatever's left to do. It's their incentive to get it done. Everybody shaking yes on this. Yes. Yes. All right. All right. Good. I like wins.

There you go. That's it for this guy, right? Yeah. All right. And uh like I said, that appears in a couple different sections technically, but I only put one here cuz they all look identical. Okay, that's fine. So, let's do our uh discuss time line for town plan meetings.

Oh, okay. So, just the only thing we need to really talk about today um is sort of future meetings for the immediate for the rest of this year. Um met with Rich earlier. Um trying to get a little closer here. Um our plan uh our proposal is that uh we would have one more meeting this year. We'll have your December 8th. 8th. Is that what somebody just shouted out? We did talk about a date. Um, is the second second. That sounds right.

December what?

December 2nd. So, that's your regular meeting. So, December 2nd, we'll meet. We're going to um continue this. Um, if all goes well, we'll get something that's really close. I don't know that we'll actually have something that can actually be worn for a public hearing, but my goal is to get us very close where you're very comfortable to um doing that at your um potentially next meeting after that. Um, looking beyond that, um, I'll have more information for you by the December 2nd meeting. Um, depending on where we are with everything. Um, I have, um, I will be unavailable for at least the first two weeks in January, potentially more. I have a surgery scheduled um December 30th, which will take me out of the office for at least probably the first two weeks in January. Um so it's hard for me to sort of commit to what January looks like. Um at this point, for your own personal calendars, do not count on any meeting for the first Tuesday in January. free your social calendars for that.

It's the day we start, so that that would be great. Is it really? It's the first day of the session. Yeah. Hey, Rich has given you the night off. [laughter] You're welcome. Uh so no need to come that night. Okay. Um there is a slim possibility and we'll give you at least two weeks notice um that we would have a meeting on the so that was January 6th

6th so the 20th right that's two weeks later if we have a meeting on January 20th It'll only be to if there's a warning or anything for this, that'll be it. Um, continue with this stuff. February 3rd is hopefully the date where we're going to do the big big big kickoff for the town plan. Um, I see February 3rd. Um, I'm not actually going to advertise that though until the second week of January, so I have an idea of what I'm capable of preparing for that.

Um, but I will be in touch with you guys by that second week of January. Um, if we do not do it February the 3rd, then that would give us February 17th. Um, so I would hold both February meetings on your calendar. If we don't do the kickoff on February 3rd, I think there's no meeting on February 3rd. Um, but hold them both. But so I'm sorry, a lot of stuff up in the air. Okay.

But the real takeaway is only one meeting in December no matter what. We'll meet December 2nd. It's not town plan related yet. Um and we'll really really kick that off in February um at some point. So, are we going to have like a separate kind of front porch form or some way other than the manager's report? Because I'm not sure if people read the manager report. Something separate about that. We're kicking off. Yeah, we're going to do I mean, I've got a whole um publication plan. Um I'm just holding back on it until I really have dates in mind. I'm also working on, this isn't for publication just yet, but I'm working on, let's see, does this work? Where's my view on this thing? Oh, here we go. I'm working on allocating chapters by week going out. Uh this is not final and I haven't allocated all of the um geographic sections in here yet. These are just the chapters. Um so I still have to put in the you know Inner Mallet Bay. And the idea is that we would do one or two chapters plus a part of town at any given meeting.

Okay. So, for example, February 17th, we might talk cultural resources and then talk about the village in the northeast quadrant. Um, and then I'm, you know, looking at other possibilities. So, for the time we talk about economic development, that may actually be the one day meeting that we might have um for whoever might be available. Maybe nobody. I know. I understand it's tough. Um, but we do try to have at least one meeting during the day for people who cannot get out at night. Economic development makes sense because it would attract more business owners. Um, so these are all tentative, but just starting to plug them in and see how many meetings it really takes down below.

Uh, yeah, I think so. Okay. See it. Oh, no. Energy's here with economic development. And it's alternative. I can move things around. Um that should be separate a separate conversation. Yeah. I mean I have to put or else I mean whatever the board agrees to I have to put almost everything has to get doubled up or we'll never finish in time. Yeah. Um but if you think it needs to be doubled up with something different, that's fine. But just about everything's going to get doubled up. Okay. Um, I'm not sure I can have full meetings dedicated to each topic. We just don't

two really big big conversations, economic development and energy. Maybe it was something that would be less. Yeah. So, we can talk this all through. I'm not I'm not wed to any of this. This has not been published. Yeah.

Uh, these are very very tentative. Um, land use is going to be big, huge. So, I gave it two dates of its own. Um that's going to be hey we generally want to see here and there I mean the huge big um can I just ask one question I know everybody's tag but I'm just wondering the regional land maps that we just did and the envir the conservation design that's out there are those overlaid so those are already determined growth centers village centers you know is that or well That's a loaded question, Serena. Okay. Um, you don't have to answer, but it's a it's a very good question. Okay.

Um, a good question. I don't have a very good answer for you yet. I'm told that we don't have to use the same terms, but we have to um uh what's the word I want to use? be respectful.

We have to um be consistent with and there's some definition of what consistent is. Um but nobody's tried it yet. So hopefully there'll be a guinea pig before us uh as to how hard they're looking at that because I got to tell you, my plan is not to start with theirs. My plan is to start with what Colchester wants. Okay, that helps me to kind of think about what I should be kind of looking at at this point. So, yeah. Okay. Theirs is theirs. It is not Colchesterers. Okay. Yeah. Um I agree with that. Your opinion for me is straight up wrong about cold chest. If that plan or that whole thing, disregard as far as I'm concerned.

Okay. When our time comes, then we'll worry about it. Okay. That's my feeling. Right.

Just got the date today, but I'm I will forward it on to you guys. the um December 1st the regional planning commission is meeting with the LURB or the land use review board. Those are the folks appointed by the state um to review the regional plan and the future land use map. They have to hold a public hearing. That public hearing is going to be um December 1st. Uh they're asking people to mostly attend via Zoom because it's a very small conference room. I believe it begins at 1. It's the afternoon.

Yeah. Um happy to send along if anybody is free and wants to attend or participate. Um the the Zoom link, I can send that to you. That'd be great. Thank you. Um, but it's hot off the presses today. Um, you might even recognize one Sarah had who will be leading that meeting. Um, yeah. Uh, she will be reviewing Chittening County's regional plan. So,

okay. Thank you. alternative there for now, but um we're a little behind. Well, we're a lot behind where I wanted to be, but it is what it is, you know. Um it is what it is. Life happens. Don't get too worked up about that time right now. Yeah. Get where we get. State organizations aren't old. Plan could change tomorrow. Could pull it out of regional side. They're not it. Last I knew we were still third largest in the state. So not too talk about it. That's the way I look at it right now.

I suspect we're going to want a third at least a third meeting for land use. Yeah, probably work through it. I mean, it'll come up as we talk about different geographic areas in town, but just to have a holistic view. Yeah. Okay, that brings us into June. Um, at least August. I don't know that I've slotted everything in yet. Okay.

Um, I have at least until June and inevitably some meeting won't happen. Um, I gave town meeting day not as a public workshop cuz that seems unfair. We'll still meet, but it'll just be like a writing workshop. Um, but it won't be an invite the public meeting.

Good. Yeah. Okay. Um, we can skip Elm's training. That was only if we finished early. And it is definitely not early. Squeeze it in next time. Put it just kick it down the street, right? Yeah. So, month reports, we're good there. Anybody have any questions on it? No. No. All right. The minutes? We need to do the minutes. Okay, I'll make I'll make a motion that we approve the minutes of November 4th. Second. All in favor?

I kind of went out of order. That's fine. So, we need a motion to adjourn. Oh, now I can make a motion to adjourn the meeting. There you go. Second. All in favor? I motion passes for 9:32. Oh, yeah. You are I'm sure it wasn't. You read it? Yeah, I read it.

There you go. Oh, I you know, I was going to share this with you guys. Uh it's not business, so it's fine. Um I was reading on a list serve this week, St. Alvin's town, not even the