Planning and Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

Good evening. It's 7 o'clock. We're going to call the order of the town of Winchester, applying the zoning commission meeting for July 13th, 2026. And we'll do roll call. Starting to left. Peter Martian. Willie Platt. Adam Quaggaroli. Charlene LaVoy.

John.

Arista is absent and excused, and Scott Eisenhower is absent. Hey, John. Turn your mic on. For agenda review, does anybody have anything?

JUST ONE NOTE, YOU MIGHT HAVE NOTICED THE SPREADSHEET ON YOUR DESKS. THIS IS, I'LL CALL IT AN ENFORCEMENT REPORT. IT'S MORE LIKE AN ENFORCEMENT LIST, BUT WE CAN DISCUSS IT TOWARDS THE END OF THE EVENT.

SO NOW WE HAVE PUBLIC COMMENT FOR ANYTHING THAT'S NOT RELATED TO AGENDA ITEMS. ANYBODY HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY? I DON'T SEE NONE. SO WE'LL GO ON TO THE PUBLIC HEARINGS. I MOVE TO OPEN PZC-26-9. Do I have a second? Second. Okay. All in favor? Okay. Now we're going to postpone that hearing until July 27th. No, not that one.

Sorry, Mr. Chairman. That's item number C. Item number C we're going to postpone.

Okay. Wrong spot. All right. Okay, applicant, VPA Construction, location 124 Rockwell Street, Zone TCR, proposal of special permit for two family homes. So tell us what you want to do there, sir.

We tried to build like a duplex, probably like a 50 by 32, two-story. and unfinished basement.

How many floors? Two floors. Two floors? Yeah. Okay, because your picture kind of showed a big house there. Oh, that's like a 50 by 32.

But it's got three stories. It's three.

You just want something. It's just something for us when you draw something.

A picture.

Yeah.

It's not accurate.

No. Because after you get approval, and then you get the engineer involved, and then we draw everything, basically. But it's going to be a choice story.

Okay, so we're being asked to approve this without any permits, any drawings, or anything like that?

Correct. The use, the two-family use is a special permit use in the zone, and at this point... the applicant has purchased the property from the town with the intention to build a duplex there. If the duplex use gets approved, then the site plan and all the rest of it would run through the normal course of business. You know, the site plan approval through staff.

So this thing here, this drawing here, does show three floors.

There was just like a chat DBT or something they put around because that's what it requires for us to apply for the permit.

We asked for some generic plans to indicate what a concept would look like over there. You know, I don't think three floors is going to cut it. I think three floors is too tall for the zone. I think you have a maximum height of 35 feet, so we wouldn't approve a three-floor building anyway. We just asked Alex for some, you know, concepts. We have a floor plan as well that I can throw up that is not the floor plan that it used, but, you know, again, the concept for a two-family.

Yeah. So how many bedrooms do you expect to have in each unit? Three. Three bedrooms in each unit? Yep. Okay. I went over there and looked at the property today because it's still town property. And you've got a steep bank in the back of that. Point the drop off. So you're going to put your house up on the level spot, or are you going to be over the bank with it?

We're going to be over the bank with it. That's why after, if everything is approved, we're going to bring the engineer, and then he's the one who's going to decide what's the perfect location, because we try to have parking on the front. Once we come down a little bit on the hill, we try to park on the left-hand side.

the left left hand side yes once you're facing you have to have parking for four vehicles yes and that street there has some houses have parking and it's not for real size vehicles so half of them are parking in the street so we need full-size parking yeah and the question i have is because most of that's obviously been filled there What are your expectations for going over the bank before you hit? How deep are you going to have to go before you hit undisturbed?

Well, they'll be the engineer that is going to decide, you know?

Yeah. All right. So if we approve this, does this want to come back to us at all?

I mean, you can always put a condition on it that you can view the final plans if you'd like to. Yeah, I mean, the thinking was to let staff do it. If it were a single-family home, staff would do it. It wouldn't come to you anyway. Somebody could build a six-bedroom house there if they wanted to. But it's up to you. You can put a condition on it if you'd like to.

So all your parking is going to be on which side of the house? On the left or are you going to have them on both sides?

No, on the left-hand side. That's the plan to keep it on the left-hand side. As soon as you're facing the left, it will be on the left-hand side.

All right. And there's like a two-foot drop down from the road there.

Again, the engineer is going to, they don't want to do that.

All right. Oh, let's change the thing. Scott's in. They showed up. All right. So that's in the house. Scott's in the house. Don't have no power, but I'm in the house. Oh, you either. You're yeah. Up there. Yeah.

So you're that part of that crowd that doesn't have power. That's 0.44 acres up there. So yeah, well, I just, I'm looking at it now. Okay.

So, uh, and I forgot to sit Charlene. Oh, I thought you... The rest is missing. Sorry, I thought you did. Sorry. I'm not sure if I did or not. Okay. But we do.

Good.

All right. So anybody have any questions?

No. We'll answer them all.

John, Scott?

Just two. And it stated you're not anticipating the variances, right? So you're going to be impervious coverage with that size structure, right?

Yeah, right now there's no anticipation for that. That's correct.

Charlene, you got any questions? I do have a letter from a neighbor about congestion and parking, but you're going to have four off-street parking. And then probably a little bit of congestion when you're doing the construction, unless you can get off the road there. I think I'd like to see it planned. When he finally gets a plan, I think I'd like to see that. SO WE CAN COMMENT ON IT. IS THAT A MOTION?

NO, WE'RE STILL NOT DOING THE PUBLIC HEARING.

WE'RE DOING THE PUBLIC HEARING RIGHT NOW, SO I'M JUST SAYING I THINK I'D LIKE TO SEE A PLAN.

I think that's fine. The reason the applicant is before you now without the full documents is that there was a timeline on the sale from the town. So you need to get his approvals lined up. So if the special permit gets approved, then he can move forward with the next piece of it if you want to see the plan easier. That's just a minor site plan, right? We don't need... Yeah, I mean, it'll be just like any other house plan that comes into the office. It'll be an A2 survey and fully engineered. Do you have any concern about topography?

Well, I think if he's gonna, he's probably gonna have to have something that shows that he can, he's got solid ground maybe, I don't know. Yeah, that way we can see, make sure that we're, you know, we can see and do our due diligence if the house is two stories tall and all that stuff.

What would the department require?

If it was a single-family home, it wouldn't have come to you. It would come on an A2 survey. We'd be looking for parking. Utilities would be shown. Overall height of the structure, foundation location, all the...

But you're putting a double-sized structure on this small lot there, and... with the issues with the topography in the back. But you don't anticipate an issue.

We trust the professional engineers to do their job. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we're going to verify, obviously. We're going to look at it. A lot of times duplexes, I personally have approved a lot of duplexes because I've worked in the town for a long time that allowed them as a right. And a lot of times they look like a colonial from the front, maybe two doors. Maybe a little bit wider than a standard colonial 50 feet instead of 40 feet, but oftentimes there's not much of a difference between two plexiglass and a single.

Standard trash receptacles, no dumpster, right? Yeah. Toters.

All right, no more questions, no more comments? Okay. So, public hearing?

Yep, motion to close PZC.

I'm going to see if anyone else... Oh, okay, sorry about that. Anybody in the audience have any complaints, comments?

I'll make a motion to close PZC 26-9. I'll second.

All in favor? Okay. Thank you. Hang around, we'll vote on it. We're going to open PZC 26-13, African Eric Swenson, the Hitchcock Chair Company, 144 Wally Street, Zone Town Gateway, Proposal Light Manufacturing. Yes, sir. Got a second? Second. All in favor? Aye. Okay. All right, sir. It's your turn.

Basically, I'm here to ask for permission. I'm working on moving a small refinishing shop where I specialize in doing Hitchcock furniture into the Unit H down at 144 Rowley Street. My understanding is that it's a town gateway, so it does allow for a light manufacturing use with a special permit. So I'm here to request that. I would need to make the most significant effect I would have would be that because I do furniture refinishing, I would need to install a small paint spray booth, which involves a 12-inch ventilation duct going out the back of the building. But other than that, I'm using primarily water-based materials at this point, so it's pretty much spraying something that smells mildly like ammonia if it's in large volume, and I'm a small volume generator.

And you've had meetings with the fire marshal?

I've spoken to him about the project in a couple of different locations, and I did speak with him while I was in and out of the office. He doesn't anticipate there being a problem. I believe it also does say that he signed off on it on the... It does show that the application has wetlands review, zoning review, fire marshal approval.

So the building was actually approved ahead of time, so you're just taking up the space. Yes. The only comment I have here is this came before us for contractor storage, in and out, and I had asked the question whether it was going to be used as small businesses moving in there, and the answer was no. I've read the approvals, and that was never documented in there. Are there other small businesses in there now?

It's starting to fill up. How'd they get in there? A couple of small things in there. Well, I mean, because what Willie's saying, what... You know, how are they getting in there?

So one bay is used by the owner, so he's free to do what he'd like.

But, I mean, the owner represented it. It was going to be stored.

Well, if you recall, the owner wasn't here. The architect was here pushing that project. So there may have been a disconnect in what was desired. But leaving that aside, we've met with the owner somewhat recently and as well as had extensive conversations with his real estate agent. And it's likely that they're going to be coming back to you guys for sort of a blanket permit, if you will, for the uses that they would like to see allowed there. Nothing that isn't already allowed in the gateway, just specific to this building. So we haven't gotten to that point yet. Right now they're trying to fill it with the easy ones, quote unquote. And this is an easy one based on the regulations of the gateway zone.

You're just looking at one bay or two bays? Yes, just one bay. Okay.

Which bay are you looking at?

Bay H. It's the furthest on the left. Yes, sir.

On the right on your screen, the road is the top of the screen. Closest to the homestead.

Yeah, south. There you go. Jeff, the rail trail is not, the proposed walking trail is not going to go behind the building, correct?

No. There wasn't enough space left in there. That's what I thought. There wasn't enough in the old railway. Yeah, this got built almost to the toe of the mountain.

I just envisioned people walking through there.

Yeah. We're on the other side of the street right now. Yeah, okay. Okay.

ANYBODY GOT ANY QUESTIONS FROM THE BOARD?

I did read through your proposal, and I was concerned with explosive dust particles, but it sounds like your generation is not to the extent where you're going to have a centralized system. It's mostly point generation, accumulators, right?

I have portable dust collection. To be perfectly honest, if I'm generating any waste, it's something in the vicinity of a trash can a week. And occasionally, when I change up my spray booth filters, those fill a contractor bag. Um, but I'm doing, yeah, I'm doing refinishing, not manufacturing. So it's light sanding. And I capture that with a, you know, I capture that with a downdraft table and then just shop back up the shop back up the remainder.

Yeah. And then the, uh, it was the back draft.

Um, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Pulse through the filter, pulse through the filters and then fence out the fence out the roof.

Got anything.

It's got to go through the fire marshal.

Fire marshal reviewed it already as part of this process. Our open gov system routes it through the fire marshal and a few others.

I didn't hear that part. My bad. Are there existing partitions right now? Are we putting one up?

No, the whole thing is it's already partitioned floor to ceiling.

Do you need a make-up air inlet for that backdraft?

I don't believe so. I can check with the fire marshal about that. So I'm waiting on Cold Fire Mechanical to ask them to come down and look about ducting it out. So I'm leaning toward Mike tends to know that more than I do.

That will require its own building permits, which will be fully reviewed by the fire marshal and building official.

What's it got for heat in there?

It's got a propane heater up on the ceiling. It's about 14, 16 foot up.

I think no problems with dust for that. Not as far as I know. No, sir. Okay.

It's comparable to the units in my current place.

Charlie Nathan.

Oh, that's right. I know they're all here for their own thing.

So anybody from the public here want to comment on this?

No, I guess not. All right. I'll make a motion to close PZC 26-13. Second.

John and I are on that.

Yeah, go ahead.

I'd like to open the next one is PZC 26-14, applicant Sandra Rossoni, location 20H Pertrock Road, Zone HL, proposal special permit for offense. Open a public hearing, and I would like to continue that to our next meeting, July 27th, 7 p.m.

I'll second that. 27th.

Okay.

27th is Monday.

You and I are on the same page. It's not the 13th.

We'll correct you. He caught me. He caught me. Somebody's checking us. Okay, where we are here business now all business at PCC 26-6 applicant Alex for tuna on behalf of second lands location 32 and off work roads on our residential purpose proposal special permit for commercial recreation All favor no second I'll second

We're continuing, right?

No, we're open. What was the motion? Public hearing closed last... Public hearing, yes, our next application.

Yeah, you're out of old business. Under old business, yes. That's our discussion.

All right, so let's discuss this now. We have a draft motion here. And...

Last we left off, we're going to go back to the fire marshal.

All right, so we have a fairly large draft motion here. Anybody from the board want to discuss anything?

Do you want to read the motion first and then discuss it, or do you want to discuss it?

Let's discuss if anybody's got anything.

The only thing I had going through it was item 12. Roadway width, 20 feet. That should be increased to 22 feet so it's consistent with what DOT has requested in their roadway section and for both public safety and our emergency services for their safety.

And item 16 and 17, addressable readings. I was only suggesting that for their own use because I know of a business now that's got problems with noise, but their noise is less than the highway noise, and they're getting jacked up for it. So I'm just suggesting that to them. It wasn't part of the requirement.

Okay, so take that off. Take that off. Okay.

If they don't want to do it, they don't have to do it. They'll just have a hard time defending themselves. Anybody else got anything?

That one too, right?

16 also. Oh, fuck. Well, that stays because it's prior to you.

I think that one wants to stay.

Oh, yeah, yeah. 16 goes.

I just deleted 16. Oh, I see.

I still see decibel readings.

So we had two in there. We had a decibel reading before any construction. Before and after. Of any noise coming from 44 or ambient noise. And then the other one was once they're all built. take decibel readings of the walk-through event.

I don't think we need to do that. That was just my suggestions as a precaution for them.

Item 11, based on our driveway ordinances, what areas need to be paved. We should get something from an engineer to us before any permits are given for anything.

There's a condition in here that the engineer of record shall certify that the road-related construction has been completed in specifications prior to the beginning of operation. Yeah, I'm looking at 11. Yeah. And I'm just wondering if that number 13 covers your request.

Well, the only thing is, you know, 11, you're putting it on the DPLW director and enforcement officer to... Oh, okay. I see what you're saying. What appropriate material and what grades, where it should be, and that should come from an engineer.

Okay, so the material is on the two of them only because that's how it's worded in the ordinance.

Right, yes, and that's in the ordinance, the review of it, because he still has to do a review of that and also has to get the driveway permit for that.

How's that language, Peter? An excess grab should be paid with appropriate material proposed by the engineer of record and approved by DPW director and CEO in the areas which exceed 12% grade in accordance with 385.3.5. Does that make more sense?

The engineer can submit it to town staff or the DPW and enforcement officer, too. So they know ahead of time before any permits are pulled.

And that, what is now number 12... I think it actually was number 12. That was essentially, we had at the last meeting, we had talked about getting final comments from the fire chief and so that was, Essentially a copy and paste from his letter.

Yeah, the 20 feet is what the state fire code is, but the DOT is requiring 22 feet in their section, and we should be consistent with what they're requiring. They have a reason to. You're looking at a potential of 300 cars a night in and out of there at one time within three hours, and that's a lot for a 20-foot road. There's not many of our roads that have that many cars on it in a three-hour period other than Main Street.

Any other changes? All right. The letter back from, this one's for Fire Marshal. There was one item here was addressing environmental hazards associated with the site's terrain, lighting conditions. So we have on the plan for one light, right, in the parking lot area. Is there emergency lighting throughout the venue for? There is. Okay. there is an emergency light. Okay. Yeah. So, all right. So the fire marshal knows that. Okay.

And again, one of the, one of the conditions in here is to have a walkthrough annually with fire marshal building official, sort of all the pertinent. And that's one of the things that you change the language on that a little bit based on our conversation a couple of weeks ago, we find it, um, Pre-event site walkthrough shall be scheduled annually with the appropriate local officials or their designees, which may include but is not limited to fire marshal, building official, police chief, fire chief, and any other authority-having jurisdiction.

And so that would be something that they do.

Yeah.

So we don't need to put, like, a second light tower on the plan?

I don't think so, because I think we're trying to keep the light limited, and he spilled it out, you know, off that property. We're trying to keep it unlimited. And, you know, the engineer... last time around talked about the light fixture that they've chosen being sufficient to light up that parking area.

So now as far as the waste management and restroom management, do we need to make that part of the special conditions or is that because it's in their application that they have to comply with that?

Yeah, it's in their application they have to comply with that and they will ultimately need TORRENTON AREA HELP SIGN OFF BEFORE THAT ZONING PERMIT GETS ISSUED ANYWAY.

TORRENTON AREA HELP USUALLY REQUIRES AN ANNUAL SIGN OFF. WE'RE NOT REQUIRING ANY SIGN OFF ANYWAY.

OKAY.

ALL RIGHT.

One more time. Anybody got questions? Things to add to that?

If you scroll down to the other conditions, I think 12 and 13 and beyond.

Okay, I'm good. Number 17, a very resistant dumpster shall be provided. But part of their waste management thing said they were going to... One time he told us we were going to take it out nightly, and then another one here it says...

finally each weekend always so they should have some sort of bear proof container to put the waste in yeah that was the conversation a couple of weeks ago that it would be you know collected each night and then removed from the site at the end of the weekend and so the conversation was there should be a bear resistant dumpster for that trash to go into through those weekend days until it's removed at the end um john okay

Well, it does everything that we had. All right.

So, Charlene, you're done? Yep. Well, we've got to get the new one because it's got all different numbers.

Well, that, yeah. Oh, yeah. How are we going to sign that?

So, we made the changes. This is going to be the final. If this is the one that gets voted on, this will be the final, and we can just reference conditions number 1 through 18. We'll print that off.

But that draft motion you gave us isn't that.

Correct, because we changed it during the meeting. Right. So you can say motion as amended during the meeting with conditions 1 through 18.

Okay, we don't have to read the whole thing. You don't have to read the whole thing. All right. You were going to make me do that, right? Well, whoever can see it the best. I can read it if you want. No, no, we don't have to. I can have whatever I want. I don't think we have to redesign it.

We've all been over it. For a legal purpose, you should be reading the first section, three sections out. Right. All right. Read the first section. I can if you want. Go ahead. Um, I make a motion to approve application PZC 26 dash sick forsaken lands for a special permit permit for commercial recreation at 32 Norfolk road is presented and amended during the course of the public hearing for the following reasons. One applicant is consistent with the town's plan of conservation and development to this application meets the criteria and standards of three J common regulations, special permits, special exceptions with the following conditions, which the board amended at meeting. tonight on July 14th.

13th.

13th. I'm pushing the week. I'll second. Okay.

All in favor? Okay, so now we have And I think the only thing that I want to see is a plan, come back with a plan. A plan before construction or after? Before any permits are issued. Okay, I'm with that.

I can make that as a motion if you want. I'll make a motion to approve PZC 26-9, applicant BPA construction, 124 Rockwell Street, special permit for a two-family home with the condition that a site plan is submitted to us, the Planning and Zoning Commission, for approval before any permits are issued. It has a minimum of four parking spaces, even though that's what's required.

Three bedrooms max. Any human. Any human, yeah. Second. That was John? John did, yep. Okay. All in favor? Any animals? Okay, now. PZ-26-13, applicant Eric Swenson, the Hitchcock Chair Company, location 144 Raleigh Street, zone Town Gateway, proposal light manufacturing. Do we have a draft motion for that? You do. I've got them all.

You're just moving faster than I can bring them up, but you're good.

You've got the electronic version. That shouldn't be a problem. We're slow. We're old. I know.

We don't have the tablets with us. We're working on that. Okay, I make a motion to approve application number 26-13, special permit, owner Matthew Cleavey, applicant Eric Swenson. So that didn't say in our thing, owner Matthew Cleavey.

Well, he's not the applicant, so he's the owner of the property.

Address 144 Raleigh Street. Zone Town Gateway Proposal Special Permit for Light Manufacturing Use. In evaluating this application, the Plain and Zoning Commission has relied upon information provided by the applicant, and if such information is subsequently proved to be false, deceptive, incomplete, and or inaccurate, this permit shall be modified, suspended, or revoked. The application is consistent with the town's plan of conservation and development. This application meets the criteria standards for section 415-24D, special permits, special exceptions.

Condition that the only approval is for the unit rented by the applicant, not the whole building.

Unit H, I think, right?

Yeah. Because reading that motion, it's like we're giving a blanket approval for the whole building.

Second. All in favor? Okay. Now PZ-26-14 has been postponed until July 27th, so we don't need to deal with that. Now we're off to new business. So you're all approved. You're good. Yep.

You can hang out and watch the show. Congratulations, everyone. You're welcome.

Good luck. You're up. Okay.

QCC-26-716, applicant. Request for Jamal. Mustafa Jamal. Mustafa Jamal.

Location 115 Main Street Zone TC proposal site plan application for retail virtually small format. And so we can just deal with this today? You can. It's a site plan.

It doesn't require a hearing. All right. So we do have a draft motion prepared for you.

Okay. Going over your site plan. The dumpster's got to be moved. It's too close to the building.

Yeah, that's right.

Is that where it always was? Hmm? Is that where the dumpster always was?

Well, it used to be farther down the parking lot. So it's got to be 15 feet by a town ordinance away from the building.

15 feet away from the building?

Yeah.

So can we take up one of the parking spots?

We can add one back in that spot. I mean, I think the dumpster originally was over here in the far right-hand side.

Where? I'm sorry. I'm not familiar with the property a year and a half ago.

I think it was in the corner of the parking lot. It was? The far corner towards the big brick building. It used to be. No problem. It didn't have an enclosure at that time. That's why you don't see it.

They told me that they wanted a fence around it. I was going to put a vinyl fence and a gate. But I could put it anywhere. It doesn't matter.

Just tell me where. Just for a fire hazard.

Yeah. And the town warden says it's 15 feet away.

I think I could put it in that corner. Is that a problem?

15 feet away.

Yes, right there. Can I put it there? That would be the ideal center right there.

Probably down in here.

Yeah, that's fine. That's what I was thinking in the beginning, but the surveyor said it's better than close to the building I did it in. Yeah. We're talking here. Yeah.

Basically, yeah. Right in that corner.

Yeah. Yeah, it's not a problem.

So now there's a question about what are you going to do? What's your plan for the building? What's going on now?

I'm the owner of the property. I leased it out to a deli guy that wants to do high-end New York style deli with high-end snacks. Nothing like the other stores. He wants it different because there's too much competition. And I gave him a 10-year lease, depending on this, if it gets approved. I did the construction from inside, which then after that, it's going to be a triple net lease for him. He already has the hoods ready with the fresh air. I did the bathroom for him. and the back kitchen with everything that the health department required. So he went to the health department, we got all the approvals and what they're requiring. So we started on construction, it's done.

It's done. Almost, that's risky.

The hood is still on the ground, they didn't put it up yet. I didn't know that I had to go through this. Understand? If I would've known, I wouldn't do anything. How'd you find out? Building inspection, building department. I got the permit to do the work inside, but then they told me you have to change the survey because the old survey had the old gas station, the Kembling Farms. I bought 10 locations from them, and some of them I'm going to do gas. I'm a gas guy. We own 40 locations with gas. But since I don't want to put gas here because the deep... You're what, mobile? I have all the brands.

All brands?

Yeah. And my own brand, Zmart.

Zmart, yeah.

So I'm renting this out because it doesn't have gas. If they had gas, I wouldn't rent it out. But because I can't put gas there, so I'm just renting out the building triple net.

So I guess we're gonna need a little guidance here from, because it can't be retail convenience, and you commented on that, but it can be retail grocery small format, and the only difference that I saw between the two really was besides the maximum size, because the size is all less than, is the convenience, they can have table seating in there, but in a small grocery format they can't.

Yeah, I think one of the ways we've dealt with this in the past, and it was before both of us were here, I think, but next door or two doors down where you've got Papa's, they have fresh fruit, some produce and things like that. So it's more like a traditional grocery store. And I know the plan here is to also have a walk-up deli counter. So it's sort of a quasi-restaurant used with small grocery attached, is our understanding.

Yes. He wants to do, from the lease that I gave him, is mostly food, like hot food and cold food, and cold cuts and sandwiches. And he wanted to put some grocery items.

All right. He's not going to have any indoor, in the building, eating, no tables?

I really don't know. I didn't specify that. He can't, or he can?

If it's retail small grocery, it doesn't say anything about it.

I thought he wanted to put like 10 seats, a bench for breakfast and lunch, whatever. But I don't know.

We're about to have an answer. You're looking at those words now, Jeremy?

Yeah, which I've done before. Mm-hmm.

Does Papa's have any indoor seating? They do not. No.

No, they just have the outside tables.

Okay, so what it says is under convenience, fast food may be served as an accessory use along with table seating for up to 20 customers provided for their convenience. I think what that's, and I'm trying to think about how this was crafted, but my assumption is that That is sort of large-scale convenience stores with maybe a Dunkin' Donuts inside of it. Because it talks about fast food, and then we have a definition for fast food restaurants. So I think that's what that's covering.

Because Cumberland Farms has the window seating, the chairs.

Right, and they've got that sort of hot food area. And then a lot of gas stations, not Cumberland Farms because they have their own brand, but there's a lot of them that, you know, I don't know, I can't think of specifics, but... you'll have a little Dunkin' Donuts or something off to one side with some seating for those. And I think that's what that is.

Shell Station in Torrington and Route 472.

I'm doing the one in Torrington like that. From my understanding, when he went to pull permits from the health department, and he told them that he wants 10 or 12 seats, they asked him for an ADA bathroom. And we built up the ADA bathroom. So that's what I think he wants. So we already did the ADA bathroom. Because you didn't have a customer bathroom before. It was just for employees.

So that is the ADA bathroom, yeah?

Yes. Yeah, the plumber inspection already inspected it. The fire marshal inspected it.

So how do we deal with this?

So we're just reading through this now. You know, the thought is that maybe under convenience, the only reason they even talk about the seating is because they put a cap on it of that 20 customers. Seating is not touched in the retail grocery small format. Right. So I don't think there's a prohibition for it. Last time we spoke with the operator, not the owner, I think he was considering like three tables, which I think would be a lot.

Yeah. He wants to put like a bench and two tables like like 12 people.

Yeah. I don't see the reason why they couldn't. Not alone. Right. So it is. No, I know. But.

I think it speaks to that because it's got a cap. It's a fine line between retail convenience and retail grocery small format. That's where we're leaning on the commission a little bit. You tell us what you think the difference is.

I went through this and I even went to check the size of the building. It's only 2,400 square feet. But it only says, everything says less than. It doesn't say you have to have this much for groceries. It says less than 15,000 and that's less than. Convenience store is less than 3,000 and that's less than. So the only part that really gets me is the seating. That's where I, the major difference between the two. Otherwise, they're really close.

The fire marshal told me it's not a problem as long as we have an emergency exit door, which we do have. We have two doors, like the main door.

Who needs to be aggressive? Yes. So that's, you know... That's a big thing. To me, that's the sticking point. But if you're saying because the grocery small format doesn't have a seating cap... But it doesn't say you can seat anyways. It just doesn't have a seating cap.

We could put a seating cap on it as a condition.

Jeff just asked the same question. You could.

The size of the building is going to limit that with everything you have there.

You know, and we sort of tossed this around. When we were talking with the operator, we were going back and forth, is this a restaurant use? Because, you know, at one point it was right. It was kind of a deli. It was sandwiches. It was, you know, some hot foods that are prepared and things like that. Question.

The Northwest soup and sandwich, I mean, what's that considered?

Yeah, I think it's a fast food restaurant or whatever.

I mean, he does seating tables in there. That's right. But he doesn't have any groceries in there if you don't count potato chips. Here there will be a few other offerings.

We did have the conversation with the operator that there is the primary difference. At the time when we were going through it, was sort of those fresh food, fresh fruit and vegetable and produce items, and he committed to doing some of that.

I don't know. I just build it out the way he wants it so I could get my rent. And I did all these things. I did the bathroom. I did the fire thing. I did everything, the AC units. I did the siding for him outside. Now I want to do the driveway, but I was waiting for you to approve it so I could get the company to come and stripe it. for the handicapped and all that. But now there's a change, so now I have to change the... Was there any hours of operation?

Listed at all. I didn't say anything.

None listed. I'm actually looking at the building plans. There's no seating proposed inside there. Okay.

So, I mean, as far as hours of operation, was there anything?

I think he's going to do from 6 to 10.

Okay. So, retail convenience has extended hours in their thing. Right. So, if you're going to have defined hours of 6 to 10, that's not extended hours. Yeah, no. That's not 24 hours. No, it's not. So, that kind of gets you out of that convenience.

That limits that, yep. No, he told me he's going to do from 6 to 10 to 6 to 9. He's not sure. He said it depends on the traffic. If it's 10 after 9, I'm going to close at 9. I'm not sure.

Anybody else got anything? Signage and lighting. Any details on that? Signage is up. Signage is already up.

Signage is up. The sign company pulled permits for it, and I think they want something else from him. He's...

work signage is compliant through our regulations?

Yes, I believe it is. Given the signage application, it's just a shame, but I believe it's already been approved. The one by the road is because it's the same size as... Yeah, it was pre-existing, basically.

He just changed the lamp and stuff, but he left everything as is.

Yeah, and I think the one on the road looks like the same thing as the one on the farm.

Yeah, it's just basically the framework. So I use this parking lot to turn around often. Until you turn. Exactly right. You can almost enter any portion of this front here. Is there any plans? It looks like it's a state walkway, right? WERE THERE ANY PLANS TO TRY TO PROMOTE THAT THERE'S TWO ENTRANCES INSTEAD OF A FREE-FOR-ALL OUT FRONT?

THERE IS A CURB. THERE'S ONLY TWO ENTRANCES. YEAH. BUT WE GOTTA PUT... ONCE WE GET THE APPROVAL, I'M GONNA HAVE A COMPANY TO COME OUT TO... THERE'S SOME REPAIRS IN THE PARKING LOT WE HAVE TO DO, ESPECIALLY WITH THE WATER. restraining system is. It has to be built up a little bit and then I'm gonna send out a company to spray the whole thing and do the lines and put the arrows covered in and out. It's all gonna be direct traffic.

Okay. Yeah, so the biggest problem is the dumpster.

That's not a problem at all. I didn't know where to put it, and I didn't know the previous way it was. I could just have him change it to where you want it, and that's it.

Yeah, move that and put a parking place next to the building.

I mean, I could put it where the corner is. It's better for him, I think, and everybody, because the truck would just back up and lift. It's better for the bears over there. Yes. No, well, it's going to have a fence. Bears don't care about fences. They climb them. I live in New York, so I'll be in Worcester County, New York.

Well, you're going to see bears around here.

I see a lot of deer. I don't see bears. It's funny, why it always says 115, and when I go to the gas company, when I order the gas, they tell me it's 119. I call cable visit, like the company, they say it's 119. Is it 115, 119? Is it 115-119?

I think it's in our records as 115. It might have two addresses.

Maybe, because the gas company has it as 119. The cable company has it as 119. I was like, what the hell is going on?

Could have been two lots there. Could have been at one point.

We have a lot of those.

I don't remember a couple of farms. That's all I remember. So now in this approval, do we put in the move in the dumpster?

Yes, I will. How about the final...

Can you just mark one of them for me so I can show it to the zoning guy so he can redraw, redo it?

We can communicate with you. Okay. Southeast location.

That'd be great, please. Tim did it, so I'll just have him move it then. Start painting the floors. and getting the dumpster fence in.

I mean, that moves your handicap parking spot.

No, it's not on the handicap.

No, I mean, you could put one over there.

Yes, I could put another. No, that has a curb already. Oh, it has a curb. It has a curb. Oh, yeah. I was going to put it on top of the curb.

Yeah, Vision Appraisal shows that it's 115.

Yeah, it's in our records.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah, building department is 115, but everybody else has it, like.

Yeah, that's not unusual.

Yeah, because in the town records, there's no 119 listed.

And do you know what size dumpster you guys require? Is it a requirement? Because he was talking about a four-yard.

Yeah, we don't have a minimum size anywhere, I don't think. I didn't see anything in the... No.

Yeah, there's no minimum size. The main thing is the fencing has to be above the height of the dumpster so it's enclosed and not visible.

Yeah, we're going to do eight foot.

Yeah, perfect.

Did you want to add the fencing to that one right there?

That was part of the building department already. They told me you have to put a fence.

It's on the plan.

The plan says six feet.

The plans are there. It's just going to be relocated to the corner of the parking lot.

You good with that verbiage? Yeah, I like it. That's good. Oh, sorry. Sorry, sorry.

I'll make a motion to approve application 26-16 site plan, applicant Mustafa Jamal. Urge Mall Properties LLC, Location 115 Main Street, Town Center Zone, Proposal Site Plan Application for Retail Grocery Small Format, based on testimony and subject to the following conditions. In evaluating the application, the Planning and Zoning Commission has relied upon information provided by the applicant, and if such information subsequently proves to be false, deceptive, incomplete, and or inaccurate, the permit shall be modified, suspended, or revoked. Approvals as per the submitted site plan from Timothy Wiley, dated 7-2-26, with revision dates 7-6-26 and 7-7-26. Final plan shall be submitted showing the dumpster location in the southeast corner of the property so as to maintain... Actually, that should be southwest.

See, I had southwest, and then I thought it was southeast.

That's west. East would put it right by the road. In a way, yeah, southeast is close enough. You know what? Southeast corner. You know where you want it. Of the property, so it's maintained at least 15 feet of separation from the building. And from is spelled wrong. Jeremy. From is spelled wrong. For.

Spell check will never get that one. Spell wrong.

I made the motion, so.

Second.

All in favor? Aye. You're good to go. Thank you, sir. Oh, thank you.

Have a safe trip. It's going to be a long week, Peter.

It's going to be a long week. My day tomorrow is outside post-testing all day over at Innsdale School.

You should be able to water. It would be cool.

No, I won't be. The people who pay to test it will be.

Now, discussion of marina-related regulations. All right.

So last month, it got late quickly in here, and we had a brief discussion. But I really didn't walk away from that meeting with any substantive changes that anybody wanted to make. So I sort of just left it as it was after that conversation. There was some conversation, I think primarily from you, William, suggesting that maybe we already have some of the, which you're right, we do already have these uses, parking, storage, and some other things. They're just not allowed in that zone. And so I think you had sort of suggested maybe we, rather than come up with a whole brand new regulation, we just allow those uses in the zone as primary uses on parcels. I think that was the tenor of your comments.

That's kind of where I was going. We already have these regulations, and yeah. And this way we don't, as you were saying, we make a mandatory, you know, one person can do it. Right. A forced... uh... uh... uh... I mean, I thought about that after our meeting and everything, and it was, like, just bothering me. So I don't know what the rest of the board thinks. Would we want to go with the original drafting or maybe simplify it? Or should we wait until Arista's here to weigh in on it more?

Yeah, it could be good. The only thing I was going to bring up, and I mean, looking at how it's being utilized now, you've got a whole area that all you've got is empty boat trailers that look like shit. I think we need to require fencing along the road if that's how it's going to be utilized. If it's where the customer parking is, I have no problem with the customer cars and stuff like that. But if that's going to be used for bolt storing in the winter, then we should have regulations for fencing to hide that. Because who wants to drive up and down that road every day and see that? Especially when you're looking at the prices of real estate up there at the lake. granted nobody wants to drive up down the road anyways because the conditions you know it's

loop around that lake.

Yeah, they go around any way you can. Yes.

So our current marina regulations I don't think discuss that kind of screening, but I think you had it written into the proposed marina regulations.

Well, either a live hedge that blocks it, you know, something to screen that just so it's not visible.

And that's what I'm doing. I just want to pull up our parking and landscaping regs just to look at how those are written. Yeah. Why can't I find it right now? It's one other, it's got its own section, doesn't it? Oh, they're up here. Here we go. Yeah, it types out to our landscape. So there are landscaping requirements that go along with parking, but I just want to take a look at what they say. And I'll pull this up on the screen so we can all look at it.

Yeah, I didn't happen to look at that with what we had done with the parking, but, you know, this we're looking at a commercial venture versus, you know, just a town parking lot or a parking lot that's accessory use to a building.

Okay, parking areas, location and size. All right. Thank you. Yeah, okay, so I don't think there's anything in here that we can lean on for screening of those. Go back to A under... Is that A? Yeah. An approved landscape of plan. So I suppose if you... I suppose if you... I think downtown, let me look at the use table. Maybe what we do is make it a special use permit and then they can condition it. special use permit under marina regulations well not even for marina but if you just an hl and hlb right if we made parking as a primary use but with a special use permit instead of a site plan right then you would have some discretion to require fencing and landscaping and all yeah i'm just saying so then if we did that special use plan then the area that's say in the summertime used for cars

to be converted over to being used for boats, but not in the same order that cars are parked in there. Right. Right. It would give you some flexibility.

Yeah, it gives us flexibility, but... Because he's got to mix both into that.

Yeah, he does.

Yeah, I mean, granted, in the wintertime, you know it's going to be full of boats, the whole thing. Yeah. That's to be expected, but it's just... I think by having it fenced with gates, at least it could, well, it'll safeguard what's in there, but it also, you know, aesthetically be more pleasing, I think.

Yeah, so parking lots are site plan uses. in town center and town gateway and town center residential, but we could make it a special use permit in HLNA.

In the Highland Lake Business District. Yeah, I think that's what we need to do.

Well, that makes it a lot easier.

So I can... Well, it's just something I... You know, it all just came to me after driving through the last few weeks to see what the use is.

Because that way you can preserve the usage down the hill

right yeah that's there and uh it gives them flexible options how the parking lot is used all year long and screening where the boat trailers are now would be a good option Well, yeah, but if you're going to park boat trailers in the upper part of the parking lot, it'd be screened, the whole thing. Yeah. At that point, yeah.

Does a boat trailer with a boat on it mean it has to be screened? It should be.

I would think so.

There you go.

I don't know how much the screening will do.

You get up higher than looking down on it all in any way. Yeah.

Comments, Scott? I'm thinking landscaping, but it may be a bit much for them. And the fencing should have slots in it so you really can't see through the fencing.

Right. It should be plastic slots in it. Definitely.

So actually the HLB refers back to the HL district for fencing requirements. So that has the requirement that it's got to be semi-see-through. But again, it's a special permit so you can probably change the requirements on that. We went through, we went round and round on this about a year ago, I think. Because over there, you're not blocking anybody's view from the lake. No, no view. In fact, you want to block people's view. Yeah, that's what you're trying to do. That's what you're talking about here. Okay. Well, let me do this, because we're having some mini conversations kind of amongst ourselves as we go. Let me put some of these things into a revised use table, and we'll kick some ideas around, because we're going to probably poke holes in it. Sure. And then we'll come back to you in two weeks with some text and some thoughts.

While we're poking holes, we're just talking the property on the other side of the old Union Penn property. But he's using behind the blue door in for boat storage.

That was one of our side conversations. Behind the marina.

Behind the marina. And then in the next lockdown, he's been storing boats. But now that he's got the Union Penn property, the building's gone and it's level filled in. And maybe he doesn't have to have those and we don't have to address parking over there if he can put all his parking over, all of his boat storage over there.

I think that's sort of the hope. I think it might be the hope, but he's using all the room he's got right now. And there's some other things that he was wanting to do, I think, and that's kind of what led us down the sort of marina accessory concept. He was talking about some fender fairs. We had that written in there.

Well, I know there was talk of future use of putting up a storage building itself across the street there.

Or a service building, because he does all of his winterizing down in this one's building, which we've never addressed that usage there.

So maybe there's some combination of we add a couple of uses to the use table and we create some language that goes along with a marina use because we really don't have anything in the zoning regulations right now. But maybe it's a definition that we craft and put in there. So that's what I mean. Let us kick that around a little bit. We'll come back to you in two weeks with some thoughts.

So then the other thing is... The points for over there. That Winchester storage sign is still up. He never took it down. I don't know if he's doing anything in there or not.

So the story is that No storage space has been rented yet. I've spoken with both him and his attorney. They should be coming in with a text change amendment for your review soon. I don't think it's been submitted yet. I was out last week, so I could have missed it.

It didn't come in as of Thursday.

Text change amendments. They come in with some writing and we either approve it or deny it. We can't alter that. But if we were to, am I correct in my thinking?

You can make strong suggestions during a public hearing and hope that they heed your advice and go back and change the language during the course of the public hearing.

Okay, or while we're doing the kind of like business district enhancements here, could something about indoor storage, small footprint,

something work yes so you have an existing use storage personal and mini warehouse it's a special use permit in town gateway and a site plan in pei so if you wanted to add that to hlb you could oh what maximum score footage is there or not you know I don't know that there is a maximum square footage.

I'd have to look. I mean, you've got to look at a highlight business district. You've got to watch what square footage you're talking. Yes.

You do.

That's why it's such small footprint.

You do. I will say that you, the zone may limit it to some extent anyway. You've got maximum impervious coverage. You've got setbacks. You've got, well, the setbacks are fairly lenient over there, but you've got coverage limitations.

What's going on on Lake Street. Yeah, right.

Right.

So. Yeah.

I was just going to look to see if there was anything in here.

But it's a special permit.

Again, if you were to add it to the zone, I would do it as a special use permit. You can condition it. Something like that.

We done discussing this?

I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT MY IDEA WAS. WAS IT ON THE TAPE RECORDER?

YEAH.

I'M GLAD IT WAS A GOOD IDEA. IT WAS GREAT.

I LIKE THAT YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT IT IS. I THOUGHT IT WAS A MOTION TO OCCUR.

I CAN'T MAKE THOSE. SO, WOULD THIS MAKE YOUR LIFE A LITTLE EASIER?

different ideas here i think i think so i think it makes i think the makes the process a little bit easier for the african as well at the end of the day so okay yeah well at least if we can define it and simplify it yeah and that not creating just one person that can do it right creating i keep worrying about the downhill side you know he's got all that property down there which sooner or later is going to be sold or developed or something. And you got it on Woodland Avenue too? Yeah, he's got it on Woodland Avenue too, but that's residential. True. So, all right. Very good. So we're on to number eight, approval of minutes. Is it June 22nd, 26th, 22nd?

I'll make a motion to approve the June 22nd, 2026 regular meeting minutes.

Second. All in favor? Aye. All right. Communications. No? Stop. Oh, you want to go over it?

Nice job. This looks like a communication. Can we start at the top? Go through all eight pages?

No.

No, we can't. No, thank you very much for that. Thank you.

Yeah, you know, I know it's not what you used to get, but I just wanted to give you something. No, but it's... This was a snapshot in time. I worked this up before I left for vacation, so it's not, you know, completely up to date. But it gives you a little bit of an idea of what's going on out there. I gave you some just quick notes, and if there are fines that are building anywhere you see a plus, it means it's still going up by the day.

But you're giving us blight and zoning enforcement and everything else, which is good.

Those are quite stiff fines. What happens? They just keep accruing?

Blight's $99 a day. A zoning issue is $100 a day, and they keep going until you clear all your issues.

Do people understand this?

They don't seem to care.

So what's our remedy?

So as you see here, sometimes I recommend foreclosed, right? Which is something that the town has available to it. That being said, you can see that we're also in the process of disposing of excess town assets. So it's a balancing act of what you want to do there. There's been a lot of discussion lately. We are about to have our first tax sale. uh for tax delinquent properties there's at least one municipality in the state that has pushed the envelope and also enters in blight and zoning violation properties in the tax sale which is allowed by legislation no one has challenged them yet and they keep doing it so i i would like us to do that here as well some of these folks they are playing a game they will stay up on their taxes and not care about any of these other violations because they think that's the only way we can do anything. The nice thing with the tax sale is it doesn't enter into the town sand, so we don't have to go through the whole town meeting and town vote and everything else. There's a redemption period that goes with that if you're not familiar with the way these things work. So the owner can make good. Which is fine. Or the new owner would then get an opportunity to fix it up and do what they want. So that's more of a policy discussion that is sort of happening behind the scenes. But meanwhile, the fines continue to occur. So it puts us in a good position when it comes to that. Sort of. Well, it could. You never know what happens when you get to court.

Yes, so that's why I would recommend if you get up to usually $10,000, then we take them to court for the $10,000 so we know where we stand. If it's $100,000, the judge is going to take off half of it or most of it anyhow. Just food for thought for you.

Yeah, they would need to have completed their cleanup to put an end on what the fine amount is. And we do that occasionally with someone who fixes it but can't afford to pay. That's fine. But when it just continues to roll, it's like... And we do that now. We record these on the land records. We get calls every week, properties that are about to sell, and they stumbled across a violation on the land records. Most of the time they predate me, so we need to do a bunch of research and everything. Then it comes to a negotiation stage with the town manager. He's the only one that has that power. Sometimes we settle. Oftentimes, I should say. Like you said, those fines get pretty crazy.

That 106 high view, is that person living on the property still?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. That is one where the town would probably foreclose on it because it's a saleable property right yeah it's a building yeah so it's worth it's a legal building on it yeah yeah well then the cost to clean it up well yeah right yeah so yeah anything you see in the uh the first break there it's essentially the first page and one line on the next page those are active then there's a bunch of complete and then you'll get to the ones that are marked done are items that I was able to close because I forced myself to go and put this enforcement report together for you.

And I said, oh, that's better, that's better.

So that was pretty good. And then you got a bunch of driveways that are still active. Nine times out of ten, those are still waiting for Jim's final sign-off. And I've already done mine, but they're still active because that's the way it works. So it just gives you a little idea of... The enforcement stuff that's going out there.

In a friendly shot across the bow. What is that?

Did I write that? Where did I write that? Two from the bottom.

Oh, okay. So those are... OUR BUILDINGS ACROSS THE STREET. YEAH, I SEE THAT. IF YOU GUYS ARE AWARE, THEY ARE PART OF THE BAR GRANT, WHICH IS GOING ON RIGHT NOW. THE COG HAS ALREADY GOT THE CONSULTANTS IN, AND THEY ARE STUDYING NOT JUST THOSE TWO BUILDINGS, BUT A FEW OTHERS ON WILLOW AND BRIDGE. sort of a minor assessment study but also a feasibility study of what could work there in the market so while we want to play nice with these folks because they are the owners and we want to do stuff there we still want to say clean it up yes so yeah friendly letters have gone out to them so i've got a response from one of the owners who said he was going to do stuff 109 marshall street as a formal town property

When these are sold, aren't they got a condition on them when they have to get the blanks done up? Didn't we recommend that?

Yes, and he didn't, so he got a friendly letter. When the letter went out to him, he was... in a facility, I'll just say. So I was dealing with his brother. Once he got out, he has started to clean up and he's been making good progress. So it never got past the friendly. It wasn't a let me find you situation. It was just like, hey, what's going on here? You bought this because it was blighted and we took it and you're not fixing it.

Yeah, it seems, I went by earlier this year, and it seemed awful slow movement up there.

Yeah, if you go out by recently, I think you'll see some more progress there. And a lot of work needs to be done on the structure itself. A new roof has gone on since he took, you know, so there's lots of things. But he wasn't there for a while, so he couldn't do anything.

All right. Any other questions? I just like that my favorite was keeping open as a stick to prod.

I gave you some good notes. I went through these really quick.

I was just kind of... What's going on with that?

I had to read that one a couple of times.

We were supposed to do a downtown walk and get businesses and stuff involved right before the 4th of July holiday. Rissa and I decided it was too hot.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

And then we were talking about doing it Wednesday this week, and now we've got the heat coming again, so we're working on it.

Late August, end of July.

Motion to adjourn second

Yeah, these are for the wayside and wayfinding. So the signs are in the town's possession. They're down at the DPW yard.

You mean they all got written up and stuff?

Yeah.

Okay.

It didn't die just because Lance wasn't here.

What happened? I haven't seen another thing on it since this one.

So we put our college intern on this project along with Tom, and I worked on it a little bit. But yeah, this was all grant dollars, so we needed to keep going. We also have grant money for some sidewalks and another mural. So all that stuff's going just very slow.

All right. Well... That's all. It's just that I hadn't heard anything. Yeah. That's good.

So they might be going up the same... Take care. Might be going up the same time we start putting in the new sidewalks downtown. But the winning sidewalk dinner was decided.

I don't remember. I don't remember what it was. Yeah.

I appreciate that.