Planning and Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

Just did that. There you go.

Wes, just hit on the red microphone buttons. Yeah, anyone. Just push down. There you go. Okay.

Now Clint can hear us and everybody else.

All right, so I have a couple questions.

First of all, where is this operation?

Pepper's property. No, Pepper property right on the Torrington town line.

Pepper's property right on the town line next to where Ham used to be, right?

Yes.

It was Pepper. Okay, I'm good. Thank you.

It's a utility markup place right next to it.

Whoa. All right, so what's the property being used for now?

Right now, we bought it as the quarry to reactivate the quarry. Right now, there's just some storage on the property.

There's not semis coming in and out of there? I see a lot of dual.

Yeah, there's some containers on the property there, and there's a couple of different trucks that come and go at various times, yes.

Okay.

But that obviously, that's not going to be continued. That's all going away once we get approval for this.

Now, the permit, the special permit, the sign, how long was that sign up for?

Quite a while.

Because I went by a week or so ago here, and it's not there.

I mean, it came from our last one. I put it onto that. Instead of turning it in, we put it down at that site.

Okay.

So it was up, you know, I got it from Shane and then put the sign up.

So is it up now?

I didn't stop over there on the way there.

It's not up now.

This is all the stuff that happened before you, correct? What's that? This all happened before you, correct?

No, no, no, no, no, no. Special permit signed. For public hearing?

Just for public hearing, so. Okay, I don't recall the sign. Okay. Oh, for the public hearing, right? I didn't see those, yeah.

Click down people and then mute them.

I keep muting. Hey, Clint, you're connected twice, and because of that, I'm getting feedback from one of your screens. So I've got you muted on one, but we should be able to hear you on the other. Oh, okay, all right. So you're good. Yeah, just leave it the way it is.

All right, so you've changed, you made some changes to your map. And that's to go along with what the engineer suggested, right?

Right, yeah, we've incorporated all their, they looked at our drainage and sediment analysis. We've incorporated any of their comments. And we also responded to the planning comments in writing. right yeah we agreed to the requirement we figured that would be like a condition in the order of conditions which will be then put on the map when we do the final file so some of this property has already been cleared of trees and stuff

I think the upper four acres and phase four and phase three are treed right now?

The three and four are absolutely not touched. Yeah, that's right.

So you're not going to clear the trees off of them until you touch them? Absolutely not.

It just creates more of a problem for us, too, with sedimentation and all that stuff, because we wouldn't be working up there for quite some time.

So when do you plan to start working down there?

We've got a lot of legwork to do. We've got piles of material to get out of there. We've got to build the structures and stuff like that. But relatively soon, we're in the process right now of clearing some yardage in our recycle yard so we can start bringing in the quarry equipment that's going to be on the site. because the site is so tight, there's not a lot of stuff. So we'll be moving some things from touring into Winsett and back and forth in the beginning until we can get a little bit more area exposed.

So anything else you want to tell us?

Well, we did, you know, there was the separation distance waivers requirements. We asked for waivers on those because... They're the abutting property owners, so there's no issues.

Oh, okay. All right. That's just on the side.

Yeah, that's kind of on the northeast side, the north and northeast side. So we asked for those waivers. We agreed to three acres at a time. We show on sheet SP2 of the set the fixed and mobile equipment. There will be no trailer. When I say fixed equipment, probably I mean like a conveyor and stuff that's not going to move that often, kind of a crusher type of thing. There will be other mobile equipment. And there will be a water tanker truck and a sweeper to manage any of the sediment. Obviously, we have anti-tracking pads and all the normal erosion control stuff.

So I have a question about the sorter. It's supposed to be 100 feet from the boundary line.

Move it if it's farther than that. I've got the sorters in the middle here. It's pretty close.

They're all mobile. That's all mobile equipment. All of this is mobile.

Yeah, all of this is mobile. I'm just looking at it. It's tight. I understand that. They don't have much room. I see the sorters there. You've got your crusher over on the left and stuff. But the sorter is going to have conveyors coming out of it, right?

It's going to, yes. So it's going to create piles. And some of the conveyors are part of the sorter. Some of them then get onto an extended conveyor as well.

I was just wondering about the sorter, the piles of materials running into the setbacks for the property line.

Well, where it shows the fueling area on the property, there's quite a large pile of material there now that we've got to remove from the site in order to make a workable, usable area.

Will some of these things move?

Yes, they will. Depending on how the operation goes, the volumes, the different types of materials that we make, they may get shifted around to the property, but duly noted about any kind of setbacks and stuff.

Yeah, so I was worried about the sorter being down there, the conveyors, the piles it makes. and you're going to be running close to the 100-foot wetlands boundary, and you're close to the setback.

There's a lot of the material that we're going to be taking out of here is going to be delivered to Torrington Quarry, Torrington Recycle Yard, because we... We can't crush and make huge piles here because then when our operation's over, so we've got to get, and so it's going to be a tricky operation, especially since the sedimentation basin got enlarged so big and stuff. So it's going to be a lot of maneuvering of equipment. It's going to be a tight site for quite a while. And when you say the Torrington area, what is that area? We have just over the border in Torrington, we have a recycle yard. Across the street from Salt Forest? And so we'll be using that area for a lay down for some of the equipment as well as some of the material that we generate Some of the larger stuff in the beginning will go in steel body trucks down to quarry to and be crushed down there In order just to create us some more space In Torrington across from Lowe's Okay, so these are all Danny Stolten's property?

Yeah.

Okay. I just happen to be wanting my name on the application. Okay, so you're doing it for Danny. Yes.

Okay, okay. I'm good, thank you. I was sort of lost.

You're up to speed now. Yes.

Well, if they use the right names, yes.

I think that's pretty close to the end of my questions. And the blasting, how does the blasting work? What do you got to do? Because on the original pepper permit, there was eight people, I believe it was, that signed a petition. And they were supposed to be notified all the time under the original pepper permit about blasting. There we go. to notify those individuals whose names appear on the petition dated 4-4-02. Now, nobody can seem to find the petition.

Same thing with our plans originally. So we do subcontract our blasting out, typically the Bay State blasting. They have a whole program that they do notifications. They'll also do pre-blast surveys of certain structures in proximity to the blasting. But they follow all the state regulations and guidelines.

These are in the original PEPPER program. Yeah. For some reason... They didn't come this time. I don't know why. Maybe the notification process has changed. No newspapers. Maybe that's why they're not here. I thought there was a notification. Yeah. There are no local newspapers.

Notifications for Torrington were just to the city of Torrington, not to all the neighbors.

Yeah. So it also says a pre-blast survey. to be conducted on houses of those individuals. Your blasting company will?

Yeah, the blasting company does, because we do the same thing down at Quarry 2 in Torrington. We have a certain distance from the quarry. You do foundation inspections and things pre-blast surveys. And the fire marshals, everyone's always notified. The town officials are always notified on each, you know, wind blasting is occurring and stuff. The road gets, you know, everything gets kind of stopped for a minute and stuff like that.

Do you notify the neighbors?

What's that? Oh, yeah. Yep. So when he just said they're within a certain distance of those people within that certain distance for him to notify early out there in Tarleton actually Okay

Based on the phase, because they're only working phase one. It won't be the whole property.

It won't be the whole boundary. Phase one is only notifying the people. Is it the property boundary or the blast side?

I'm not sure what the regulation requires. That's a fire marshal regulation.

I thought it was the property boundary.

Yes, I'm not sure.

And the last thing, contractor also signs the roadways in front and alongside the property when that's going on. So everybody is aware, even if they're just driving through, that this is going to occur. And they usually say, turn off your two-way radios and stuff like that.

Yeah, those are normal signs. First time around, there were these special conditions about the neighbors, and I'm just a little concerned that they weren't here this time.

Well, that was in 2002.

Yeah.

That was 24 years ago, so we don't even know if they're the same neighbors. Right, we don't even know if they're the same neighbors.

Yeah, that's right. All right.

So, but to that, to that point, I think you brought up a point earlier and I just want to make sure that it was resolved that the sign out in front, this is a continued public hearing. So it was out there for all of the days that were necessary leading up to the,

the public hearing is that correct i mean i did i put the sign up it's been there ever said i mean you said it's over now but i mean i put it up the day i got it from i moved it from winston for our quarry one location down to because we had it out for the other quarry so instead instead of turning it into to shane she just told me to keep it and put it down at the other property so once we got through quarry one so it's been up for quite a while down there i mean obviously you said it's blown over now um but it was put up right after the what we got through with the uh quarry one project so it's if it had to be up for 10 days it's you know it was up for a block longer than that well i went by on may 22nd and it wasn't there

Well, your hearing opened on May 18th.

Right. So that's the other thing. Greg said it only has to be there until the commencement of the public hearing. Right.

So as long as it was up for the required period before May 18th, we're okay. I mean, I know I verified it at one point. I don't know if that was day 10 or day 11, but I remember driving by it before the meeting, so I know it was up there.

SO I JUST WANTED, FOR THE RECORD, TO CLARIFY IT, BECAUSE THAT WAS BROUGHT UP, AND MAKE SURE THAT WE WERE COMPLIANT. THEN THE PUBLIC HEARING OPENED, AND THEN THE SIGN AT SOME POINT FELL DOWN, BUT IT'S A CONTINUED PUBLIC HEARING, AND THE DATE WAS MENTIONED AT THE LAST MEETING, SO WE SHOULD BE FINE.

ANYBODY HAVE ANY QUESTIONS? SCOTT?

SO FAR, I'M STILL READING, BUT I'M GOOD IF YOU WANT TO LISTEN TO... ARE YOU GOING TO OPEN IT TO THE PUBLIC?

Yes. Anybody in the public have anything to say? Jen? Come forth.

Sorry, I just figured out what property this is because it doesn't correspond.

Come forth and identify yourself.

Oh, sorry.

Do you guys mind taking over the floor? Sure.

You can leave your stuff there. She wants to.

Hi, Jen Berga. I'm here for the Winchester Land Trust, so... PO Box 10 Winchester Center. The number doesn't correspond with the data on the town websites, like 0 Torrington Road.

You've also got the map block and lot.

I think I figured out which one it is. I don't know if the land trust is 250 feet, but we're pretty close. Were we supposed to be notified? We don't abut this parcel, I don't believe.

No, if you don't abut it, you wouldn't have received it.

Yeah, only your butters get notified.

Okay. And the 250-foot rule applies to when blasting permits come in, if they blast at the site.

Okay, and then you'll find out whether it's from the blasting site or from the property law?

Yeah, it's actually regulated by the fire marshal's office, and the permitting system is all... It's all state requirements. So it's a statewide, essentially a statewide property.

Okay.

So I think, I mean, we have trails on our property, but they're on the other side of the SNET building. So I think they're, so our boundary is close, but our trails are not. All right.

I was going to just give you a straight, I was going to give you all a straight line measurement. Okay.

And I'll just confirm with you that I'm looking at the right thing. So our boundary is right there. Great, thank you.

so far i'm okay just for your information the closest point of the prop of this property's boundary which is the northwest corner the closest part of that to the land trust property is about 700 feet okay

So before we close the public hearing, I just had a question, not necessarily from the applicants, but from the staff. These are the conditions that we're looking to put on the approval. Nothing new has come in. They haven't addressed any of them. So these would be the eight conditions.

I can pull up a draft motion. I would submit a couple of them and make them a little bit clearer and then added a few additional conditions as well.

And so you guys have seen this report and know these conditions and we don't need to discuss anything else on them? Okay.

The same conditions were also made part of the wetlands approval, just for your reference.

Great, thank you.

So anything else to help us along here? No? Okay.

Last chance, Scott. I'm good. I'll probably add some things to the conditions, meaning I would probably only add that if our wetland zoning officials see something and he wants it fixed, then they have to fix it, and I think they would be willing to do that. Instead of just the list, if he sees something separate...

Yeah, that goes for any site. I just want to make sure. But yeah, throw it on there. So I take a motion to close PZC 26-5.

I'll second it. All in favor?

That's a yes. So now PZC 26-6 has been continued to June 21st.

they're working on plans, and they'll be back to you in a couple weeks, hopefully.

Okay, now we're off to item 5A, Public Hearing PZ-26-7, applicant Paula Jaworski, location 133 Halliburton Avenue, zone TCR, proposal special permit for home occupations. Come forth. Tell us what you want to do.

Well, first, good evening, everyone. I am Paula Jaworski of 133 Hollabird Avenue, and I am seeking permission to operate an online retail business with my daughter out of our residence. The business is Relic Revive, which will be an online thrift store selling quality pre-owned and vintage clothing, as well as a limited selection of accessories, such as designer shoes, bags, and unique household textiles such as linens and doilies. I'd like to emphasize that the business is not consignment-based. All inventory is sourced solely by my daughter and I for quality, sustainability, and affordability. As I indicated in the special permit application, because the business is online, there is zero risk for disruption to the neighborhood. Our home will remain as is and intact. It will not include any retail foot traffic. parking, noise, or business advertising. Additionally, the room in our home designated for our inventory and mailing supplies is approximately 140 square feet, which is roughly 3.7% of our home's total square footage. And I thank you for your consideration.

So I have a question. Part of your plan says you're going to have furniture sales?

No, no, not furniture. It would just be clothing, pre-owned vintage clothing and household textiles such as linens, vintage pieces. No large furniture because of shipping.

How are you going to handle your shipping? UPS and FedEx trucks?

No. Through the mail. I set up a business account with the post office. Okay.

So there'll be no deliveries, no pickups at your site then? Other than by yourself?

The normal, you know... Household?

Amazon or something like that.

Yeah. And with the post office, having a business account, it would strictly be within those business hours, either me scooting to the post office in person or having a business account. You can arrange through the post office and with your carrier to pick up. Ideally, that would be, you know, when business is going well. You know, but to start, you know, I'll be doing most everything in person. And advertising will be online through social media. No signs or anything like that. Business cards, no signs.

And is it just you and your daughter working there? Yes, yes.

Anybody ask any questions? All right. You meet the qualifications for your storage and your base, you know, and what you're going to use for space, so... Okay, what is in your proposal in the beginning here? It says gently used home furnishings. What are those?

It was more of a broad term, meaning the linens, doilies. I have some items from past relatives that are unique, and that is what I was going to be putting together for sale.

So no furniture. No furniture. Okay.

I can't afford to ship that. Or lift it.

If there's no other questions, I'll make a motion to close PZC-26- Did you open it in public?

Yeah, ask the public.

Oh, okay. Sorry about that. Anybody in the public got anything to say? No? All right. So I'll make a motion to close PZC-26-7, applicant Follinger-Weske, 133 Halbert Avenue, zone TZR proposed a special permit for home occupations.

I'll second that.

All in favor? Okay. Thank you, everyone.

Hang around a few minutes and we'll vote on it. Hang around a few minutes so we can vote on it afterwards. No, we've got other things first.

Okay. All right, thank you.

So now we'll go on to number six, old business. So old business is PZC. 26-5 that was Wesley cloud on behalf of Winston Road Realty LLC Location zero Tarleton Road map 45 block 158 map 049-1 zone TG proposal special permit for earth excavation Okay Okay, I got it on my phone here I Have a motion

to prove application twenty six dash five special permit was both realty llc address zero toronto rose map forty five block one fifty eight at four nine dash one town gateway proposal special permit for earth excretion per site plan comprehensive environmental five thirty twenty twenty six years data six three twenty twenty six this application is approved For the following reasons, this application is consistent with the town's plan of conservation and development. This application meets the criteria and standards of Section 415-24D, special permits, special exceptions. The following conditions shall apply. One, in evaluating this application, the Planning and Zoning Commission has applied... The Planning and Zoning Commission has relied upon information provided to the applicant, and if such information subsequently proves to be false, deceptive, incomplete, and are inaccurate, this permit shall be modified, suspended, or revoked. Two, final approval plans shall have the live signature and seal of a state of Connecticut licensed professional engineer, soil scientist, and surveyor of record. These plans shall be submitted to the Town of Winchester's Planning and Community Development Office prior to any construction. Three, there should be no storage of inoperable equipment, vehicles, or parts thereof on the site. Four, prior to the start of construction, the zoning enforcement officers shall issue a zoning permit certifying all conditions pertaining to the start of construction within this approval have been satisfied. Five, provide the name and 24-hour emergency contact telephone number to the ZEO WEO for the responsible party regarding the maintenance of the proposed erosion and sedimentation control measures six applicants shall provide an erosion and sedimentation control measure bond estimate said Estimates shall be reviewed by the town's, set estimates shall be reviewed by the town's engineering consultant and approved before the bond is posted. No permit shall be issued and no work shall commence until the bond has been posted. Seven, the erosion and sedimentation.

We got the same one going here?

I'm reading the one that you sent on mail, the email.

There was an update this afternoon?

There was an email this afternoon.

Second one? Because the one I got just...

I sent you an update about 3. No, it was earlier than that. 2 o'clock maybe? 3 o'clock? Something like that.

Okay.

Erosion and sedimentation control bond shall remain in place until all site work is completed and until permanent vegetated cover is established. Said bond amount shall be reviewed. During each application for renewal, an increase or decrease in accordance with recommendations from the town's consulting engineer. A pre-construction meeting will be scheduled. Ah, come on. shall be scheduled with the town of Winchester staff prior to the start of construction to inspect erosion and sedimentation control measures and to discuss construction sequencing and phasing. During construction, earth, rock, and removal process, the owner-developer contractor shall add erosion and sedimentation control measures as deemed necessary by the town of Winchester staff and or its engineering consultant. Ten, daily inspections that require maintenance of all erosion and sedimentation control measures shall be completed by the owner, operator, and or the site contractor until a permanent vegetative cover is established. Repairs shall be made immediately after inspections and until a permanent vegetative cover is established, 70% turf establishment. All erosion and sedimentation control measures shall remain in place and be maintained until a permanent vegetative cover is established. An as-built site development and grading plan, which shall include topography locations and locations of all altered areas within the limit of disturbance, shall be submitted to the Town of Winchester staff for review and approval after all the site work is completed and prior to requesting the release of the E&S bond. Set map shall be prepared by state of Connecticut registered land surveyor. 12, a final site inspection shall be completed by the town of Winchester staff and the engineering consultant prior to the release of the erosion and sedimentation control bond and the issuance of a certificate of occupancy. Please note this inspection shall only take place after receipt of the as-built site improvement and grading plan as required in condition 11 and above.

What kind of bond do you get? Cash, check, passbook?

I'm just curious.

I'm only asking because sometimes if you get a check from the bank, you're only good for a year. Cash always works. It's just food for thought. I know they're good for it, but in case there's any issues with sewing or rosary controls, you want to be able to correct it right away if they don't, but I don't foresee that. they wouldn't have three operations if they fell behind on things.

So is that a motion to approve? I'll second.

That was a motion to approve.

That was a motion to approve. Anybody got any conditions to add?

We're going to add any special conditions? Anything else we're going to add?

Did you want to do hours of operation? I know you were... They're in the zoning regs. They are indeed. So just stick with those.

The only condition I would like to add to it, only because it's so close to the Still River and that area, that any hazardous material spills that take place on the property at the fire department to be notified immediately. because the Still River runs back to Winstead. So anything that may get off the property into the Still River is going to come this direction, right to Winstead. I mean, it should be contained on site, but you never know with a torrential rainstorm or something.

You good with that wording, Peter? Yes.

Yes. You can blow a hydraulic line. Anything can happen. Believe me, it happens at DOT. It happens to everybody.

All right, so we have a second. All in favor?

Thank you very much.

No, that's the wrong one. It doesn't match what was read.

I only sent one today. So if you got one from me, it's the same. 3.42 p.m. Jeremy, 3.42 p.m. And this goes up to 14? I think you, I suspect your word version, the word app on your computer did something weird. Yeah. I suspect that's what happened because this, this is what Peter read and this is one. Yeah. Yeah.

So do we need to sign it?

We need to print it. We'll get the correct one. Yeah. With the extra condition. We'll get her out to you. Yeah.

Okay, hopefully I'm right on the next one then.

We'll find out.

That's a short one.

I'll pull that one. Okay, so now we're going to go on to B on Old Business, PZ-26-6. Applicant Alex Fortuna for Forsaken Lands, 32 Norfolk Road. That's has been continued till June 22nd. So now we're going to do PC-26-7, applicant Paula Jaworski, location 133, Halliburton Avenue, zone TCR, proposal special permit for home occupancy. Planning zoning commission date, June 8th, 2026. Make a motion to approve application 26 dash seven special permit owner, Paul Jaworski. Address one 33, Halliburton avenue zone. TCR proposed a special permit for home occupation occupation. This application is approved with the following reasons. The applicant is consistent with the town's plan of conservation and development. The applicant meets the criteria and standards of Section 415-24D, Special Permits and Exceptions. The following conditions shall apply in evaluating this application. The Planning and Zoning Commission has relied upon information provided by the applicant, and if such information is subsequently proved to be false, deceptive, incomplete, and or inaccurate, this permit shall be modified, suspended, or revoked.

I'll second it.

Anybody want to add anything for special conditions? No? All in favor?

All set.

All set. Thank you very much. Now you want us to sign this one?

Yeah, you can sign that one.

Where are the next steps, and what do I do with my sign?

Our office will be in touch, and we'll get you all those details.

Okay.

You can take the sign now. Yeah, you can take the sign. Yes. Okay.

All right. Great. Thanks so much.

Thank you.

Good luck. Thank you.

Okay. WE'RE OFF TO NEW BUSINESS. PZC-26-8, APPLICANT YIELD PROPERTIES, LOCATION 112 STANDARD AVENUE, ZONETOWN GATEWAY, PROPOSED SITE PLAN,

We don't have an applicant here. And we noted a couple of things on the site plan there that need adjusting, so we did reach out to the applicant to have those corrected. Considering they're not here, I think you probably just want to continue to the next meeting.

Have you guys been down and inspected the property or looked at it or anything? We've been down here certainly more than six times. I'm just wondering, has all the material finally been moved out of the wetlands, and all the seeding been done, and all the things that we had approved previously?

For a long time, yeah. When I first started here, I was going everywhere to make sure.

I remember there was an issue there, and I just was wondering if it finally got completed. That all got cleaned up and stabilized, and all the tiles are away from that.

Excellent. So I have a question. Does this site plan meet our regulations? There's no engineer's name or stamp or anything on it.

Yeah, those are some of the things that we need to get corrected from the app. Okay.

So do we need to do anything about this?

No, I think you can just continue into your 20-second meeting.

Okay. 20 seconds.

Now we're on to... Is there a motion for that? I don't think we need a motion.

We don't really need one.

Because we're just accepting it anyway. You don't need it. So now we're on to item 8. Unless you have something else.

No, we have nothing else. We're just... Trying to keep up?

Other business discussion, marina-related regulations.

All right, so as we discussed a couple of weeks ago, the marina up at Highland Lake is operating up there. We know that they're using a number of properties. We kind of went through our zoning regulations, and your ordinance is... The town of Winchester has decided that you can only have one marina. It's a little bit complicated to try to attach a marina special permit to the six or seven properties that are being used currently. And we really don't want to do that because If any of those got sold individually, then you have a special permit hanging out there for a marina. Really, what is a marina? It's access to the water. It's the dock. So we had this idea that perhaps what we want to do is set it up so that we have a marina use, and then we have a marina support services use. marina that's up there we have special permit modifications that we've been able to find all the way back to the late 70s for the parcel of land that's on the lake side of east lake where the actual dock and you know what you probably would consider the marina actually exists a couple of those refer to the building across the street where the sales and service garage currently is but not all of them do So I think what we sort of talked about a couple of weeks ago was let's go through our regulations, create this marina support services, which would allow the current operator or any future operator to have their special permit on the location where the actual marina exists, and then permit those sort of accessory support uses that are tied to the permitted marina, but you don't then have a marina special permit on seven different parcels or eight different parcels or whatever the case may be. through some language at you here to just get a conversation going and then we'll kind of go from there.

I have a question. So I like the concept of this, but would the marina support services have to be tied to a marina? So example, I'm thinking is if a business wanted to come in that uh, clean boats or reupholstered, um, you know, we have this, this Marina, little Marina thing over here, or, you know, fixed navigational systems. You know, I think because it's a lake and there's a lot of boat activity, we might, we might see some of these Marina or boat support services that maybe aren't connected to the Marina. Have you thought of, like, would that be possible with this?

I think that might already fall under the vehicle sales and service pleasure category.

But it wouldn't be sales, but if they were selling boats.

Sales and service. And service.

They're washing the boats. But this is just basically the HL District. that's what this is applying to.

Yeah, this would only, right, we would probably, I mean, I think the thinking is that we would only have this. Yeah, this would only be in the HLP. Right. Yeah.

And they should probably do that kind of stuff across the street in the building that goes with the marina.

Well, that's what we're doing.

And I like the wording for what you put down, the support services for the other...

No, I think you were not at the meeting a couple of weeks ago. Storage only.

Storage or parking only.

And that's kind of where this came from, right? Is that he's got, the current marina has, he bought the old Union Pin site. He's got a bunch of parcels all around the building there. And of course, when this thing started out back in, I don't really know. I mean, I chased it back in the land records to like the late 50s. I couldn't find it any further back than that. But it really was just, you know, the little garage that's there. I think it used to be a garage and the marina parcel where the dock is. That was about it. and it's gradually grown, and we need to get it all permitted. We've been talking about this for months.

There's been a lot of changes, a lot of agreements with the town to get rid of the moorings that were out there, to get the docks. And then the house in front of the building that exists now was torn down. So I don't know if that even was addressed in any of the stuff.

Yeah, I don't remember seeing that. Yeah, that would be under . Yeah, right. Yeah. And I don't know if it was under a special permit and therefore filed in the land records or not. We went through and dug through the paper files They weren't all that revealing. Most of the stuff was within the last 15, 20 years. So it really was not all that exciting to look at. But the stuff that was in the clerk's vault was a little bit helpful in terms of where the special permit actually lives. Because initially, when we first started having this conversation with Eric a while back, and OK, how do we get the rest of it permitted? it became, all right, well, what permit actually exists? And trying to find that was a little bit of a challenge. We still haven't chased it back to the original special permit, but we have a bunch of modifications. There's like four or five of them along the way. So I think we can rest on the fact that somewhere a special permit exists if the commission has modified it multiple times over the last 40 years or so. But it's always for that parcel where the dock exists. And so I think the rest of it is the idea here is support services. Yeah, yeah. and that way it's you know it's like i said you don't end up with and you can't really end up with multiple marinas anyway over there because you've got you've got limited space to do it um but i think this is probably a better way to get all those other parcels permitted especially since there's streets in the way you know it's a little bit complicated you know you're talking highly like business district the parcels uh going on the right hand side down from the

to Lake Down. Those are in town single family.

Some are. Most of them are in HLB at this point. There was a zone change approved a couple of years ago. I can pull up the map. Yeah, I was going to say, our map's open.

The Union Pin properties are... Well, Union Pin is on the left side going down.

Oh, right. On the right side. The individual houses are town single family. Right.

Yeah, they are... It breaks about halfway down to, what is that, Rockwell Street? Yeah, one or two parcels before Rockwell changes.

He thinks that this would allow use of all of those for that. It won't. Right.

So I have a couple of questions. Now, Marine Support Services, how about the Marine Support Services Air Rail? Would that be a better definition?

What was that last word, Willie? Area. Area? I mean, it could be.

I think because marine support services is like a business name, you know, it's a service, but this would be like the area. I don't know what anybody else feels about that.

Well, I think we're permitting uses. Right.

Yeah, this is tied to use. I mean, we could say marine support uses. We can permit there. Right. Basically. Right. Yeah, so if you read out that definition, Okay, all right, so I see where the confusion lies you just throw marina accessory support services.

Yeah, we could say accessory support services Support services and maybe a number or the map lot and block number to go with this so you know which one you're talking about I Because you're saying there's several of them.

Well, that'll come when they come for their permit. Then they'll attach it.

It could be just marina services because in the definition it says an area related to a permitted marina, which provides marina access.

Less words instead of more.

Marina services, is that what you said?

Yeah.

Okay.

I think we did fine.

And I did just, as we were sitting here, you know, you look at these things three times, you go cross-eyed, and then you sit a week and you look at it again and you see different things. But I just changed the wording at the very beginning. I think the sheet that you have says an area related to, and I just changed it to those uses related to a permitted marina which provides. Because that, you know, we're going to take an area and put this use on top of it, not the other way around.

So go ahead. I'm just trying to find it.

All right. So under A, the term adjacent?

Yeah.

Maybe we should change it to immediately adjacent to just say that it's like right there, not just maybe adjacent down the street. or maybe you want to use abutting. In that area, you've got abutting to the abutter because he's got properties here and then abutting over here.

That's where I was struggling with trying to figure out the location piece of it. I started out saying, you know, something along those lines, abutting and then abutting the abut, you know, like, because the idea is you want to be able to do that. Right.

Right. So you need to keep it simple. So as these seats change here, the new people will know what they are. And when that seat changes, it'll be simple to pick up. Right. Idiot proof.

So, I mean, we only have, so we're only allowing this in the Highland Lake business district. There's only so many parcels that are in the Highland Lake Business District.

But we just changed parcels. We expanded the business district for Eric a while ago. So we added more parcels. So parcels could be added more by somebody else that wanted to come in, say bought one of Eric's houses and decided he wanted that changed to the business district for something else. For another marina's type service or something.

I mean, I think if it's...

It also touches on ownership if you get down to B. So if you're talking about somebody else buying a property and wanting to do one of the services, it would get knocked out because he doesn't own all, or he doesn't own the marina itself. You've got to own that to be able to get this far. But we're going to pull up the GIS mapping just so we can all be familiar with the different parcels. I can't forget it.

Um, so obviously this is, I shouldn't say obviously, this is the lake, this large parcel here. So you got East Lake here heading diagonally down. You got West Lake running across the dam and then Lake running down the street. So to Peter's point, um, You know you've got once you get to the stop sign you around the corner that the store is there you got one Sort of two pieces three parcels there and then the rest the last four before you get to Rockwell a town single-family Those are all found single-family So we're not talking about those oh, but they're still under LLC's they are but they're zoned incorrectly for that type of use and at this point at this point and you know his We've had several conversations, and again, everything's speculative, everything can change. You know, applications can come in at any moment. Right now, as of today, the conversations that we have had with this particular owner, that the residential uses that he owns on those parcels, even the ones that are zoned commercial or HLB, he intends to keep those as residential. Could change, but that's, you know, that's kind of where we are. And then on the left side, again, Peter's point, those are all HLB running down the hill.

So pull that map down a little bit. So does Eric actually, did we extend the business district all the way down to?

That was already business district.

That was already HLB?

That goes to Boyd Street where the impetus warehouses, where they just put the catch basin.

Yeah, I never realized it went down that far. Okay.

That's that property.

Yeah, his, the union pin are, I think it's these two, it's really three parcels. It doesn't show on this Mavis three, but it's that area there. All right, so back to language. And again, you know, we can keep, we can tweak this all day long.

We have 263 going up to the lake. 263 stays on Boyd Street. Say that again. Route 263 you have coming up to the lake. Yeah. It really turns right onto Boyd Street. Correct. Okay. Well, you have a label there twice.

Oh, that's not my map. That's just GIS. Oh, okay.

Just a guide.

We tell people all the time. So you're still flawless.

That's good. I try. I try.

Yeah, this is not my map.

COLORS. YES, WE CREATED THE COLORS AND SENT THEM OFF.

BUT I DIDN'T CREATE THE UNDERLYING DATA.

ARE WE LOOKING TO BE MORE OR LESS RESTRICTIVE? BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I'M THINKING, RIGHT, LIKE FIRST OF ALL, THIS IS A SPECIAL EXCEPTION IN THE HIGHLINK BUSINESS DISTRICT. IT'S ALREADY A PRETTY LIMITED AREA. WE ONLY HAVE ONE MARINA. So, you know.

A forced monopoly.

Right. And so like if we put, because we want the marina to succeed, right? We want them to do things and we want them to support the lake. So if we put, you know, something that gives the commission some leeway, like is in close proximity. you know, to the marina as determined by the commission or something like that. So we're not what's adjacent, how many feet, like it just has to be a close proximity. We're talking about.

To that point, I mean, let me ask you this. Do we need a location at all? If it's only going to be permitted in the HLB, that's the only place it's going to show up in the use table, if that's the intention, which I assume it is. Maybe we don't need to say it has to be within certain distance of the approved marina. I mean, the whole zone pretty much is with the exception of, I don't know, there's one or two parcels that are kind of separated down the street. You've got, you know, a couple down here and you get the one down the corner.

Everything else is in close proximity. But if they wanted to, across from Resha Beach, if they wanted to go down there and rent kayaks, do we care? Stand-up paddle boards?

Right. So maybe the location sections...

They still have to come to us for a public hearing, right? The special exception?

It all depends on what the commission wants, yeah.

Is that what you were proposing?

My initial thought was not special permit because, yeah, because, again, it lives on the land records, and in some ways going site plan gives you a little bit more control because, you know, once it's on the land records, it's on the land records forever, and the next owner can come in and keep running with it, which I guess is all right, but...

So a lot of marine things. The marina has got a monopoly. You can't go down to the points. You could go down there and rent kayaks. He could not launch them on Highland Lake because you can't have a business launching kayaks in a state boat launch. That's prohibited. Sure. So he could not launch them. You'd have to load them on your car. and haul them down. I don't believe you could take them across the road to the beach either. I think that might not be.

No, that's not allowed, launching the boats from any of the beaches. Yeah, no launching. That's in our ordinances.

What about a stand-up paddle board or none of those?

It says I'd have to read the board again. If you allow one, everything will squeeze in. So you've got to make a decision yes or no.

Because they're designated swimming areas. There's no place to launch. Nope. It's all buoyed off for swimming.

Yes, that's right. So you couldn't get out there.

There's no crossing with a boat, paddle board, or anything like that because it's buoyed off as a designated swimming area.

How on beach should we walk down further past where the buoys are and cut in there?

But then you're about that far from the edge of pavement on the road, I think.

Well, the whole purpose of this is to make that area legal, because right now it's not legal. Bring it into compliance, make it legal, get some structure to the regulations for there, because as Scott says, if this board changes, they may just say cease and desist as of now.

And that's kind of where we're at, because when we really started looking at it, you know, the use is not just the stuff that's going on across the street at Union Pin, but there's really no approvals for any of the stuff that's going on on any of those parcels, because we don't have the language for it. So that's kind of what brought us to this point.

And I don't think anything that I'm thinking or you're thinking of restricts his ability to do anything on that lot.

so yeah i don't see where any of this will restrict them at all i mean right but by wording it as adjacent property you know under the same ownership so that's have you talked to him not yet we wanted to get this to the commission we told him we were going to get it to the commission and make any modifications that the commission thought were going to be necessary and then we'd send it to him one of the things i had i thought of under c under parking even though farther down under the f under uses it mentions about you know watercraft, personal watercraft, approved by fire marshal, what have you, but undersea parking, it should comply with all applicable fire codes.

Well, I had a question on that, too, because our zoning regulations account for like car parking they don't account for cars with trailers or you know boats like that they're not nine by twelve right so you're not gonna necessarily so the parking i would say um you know if it's a parking lot for patrons that are gonna even that they might have trailers i don't know that we want them to necessarily come

yeah so you're the regulation if you look at the use table right now for the marina uses it gives you flexibility it doesn't give us a strict number and so I think in this case I was pointing to the design well okay so you're getting a design but location and landscaping and planting and those types of things but maybe design should be take that word out yeah maybe maybe it's just that

parking to appear with the location and landscaping requirements. Only. And then my last, so the question I was trying to form before, and I don't want to overcomplicate this, and I don't know that we need to, but you look at these permitted uses, right? Rental of supplies is very different than a repair of a vessel, right? And so when we, and I agree that it should be a site plan. I like the thinking on that. I think the location should come away. I think we should make it easy. But I think maybe it's like a checkbox of which ones are allowed and which use. I don't want to just say, marina support services are approved on this site. and they can do anything. I think they need to define the uses a little bit more because I also don't want to say no to something that's kind of small because they can't fix a boat there. I think there needs to be flexibility because there's a wide range of

Does that make sense? It does. My initial thinking, and I want your opinion on this, but what if we broke it into two pieces? These uses are by site plan. These uses are by special permit. Figure out what those are. Maybe repair, washing, sales.

Maybe they're even both site plan, but one's a major and one's a minor.

Okay. Just a question.

Because I like your idea about the site plan.

When we approved... for the building across the street for the marina in that area, was there a limited number, placed a limited number of new boats that could be on display?

Not that I recall seeing on the plan. Okay, I don't know.

I just, for some reason, I think, I remember that discussion years ago when we made the approval for him for the marina. I'd have to go back and look, to be honest with you. For some reason, I thought there was, the commission had put a number, a maximum number of new boats that could be on display for sale or something to that effect, just because of the size of the lot. Right, yeah. And where he put them, because there was a big discussion about putting them out in front on the corner and about blocking the sight lines and everything else because of the stop sign there. When you come up the hill, you go to toward East Lake street. And I, and I thought we, there might've been condition put on that as far as a number of new bolts that could be on display for sale.

There could be. And I'll be honest. I wasn't looking at all those. I was just looking to see what was perfect. I vaguely remember that. Okay. So, okay. So, so site plan, major site plan, minor.

Yeah. I can get both. I mean, I guess like. If they get a major, they can do the minor, I don't know. Or maybe it's just... I don't know.

I'm wondering if...

may include any or all of the following, and then when they submit an application, we can restrict the uses.

Yeah, if it's a site plan, though, we've got to be careful with that. maybe what we do is certain uses are a minor site plan and certain uses are a major site plan that require a public hearing. And then at least you're inviting the neighbors in and you're sort of telling the applicant and yourselves that for these uses, it's not a special permit, but we're gonna hold a public hearing.

Even with that major-minor, didn't we put that in our site plan? Hold on. So we have different requirements.

You do, yeah, you definitely have different requirements for major and minor.

So, you know, maybe that's just the difference. Some of the more smaller uses are minor, and they require minor site plan requirements, and the major require a major site plan requirement, and we could always hold a public hearing if we wanted to. Yeah, you always can. Okay. We don't have to.

All right, I'll look at those and adjust that a little bit. Okay.

one of the things I didn't see useless, and I don't know if it'll happen, but like washing the boats or anything like that. Yeah. Washing or detailing and, you know, then... we've got we're going to have a concern with the runoff and and everything else and chemicals that are used and things like that um you know do we permit it or not that would be a major category right i think so i mean i would consider that because of the chemicals that could be used and the runoff that could be used granted it's not running towards the lake but it's still going to be running for the brooklands it's going somewhere he has been detailing his boats down in the ifland building okay well

All right, so maybe I'll break my initial thinking was that that was sort of service related. Well, maybe I'll break it up.

Yeah, it should be. So you talked about vendor fairs in there. What is a temporary vendor fair?

The idea there is sometimes these boat vendors, they'll want to do displays or whatever and sell there.

Pop up where they bring a canopy for the boats.

Yeah, just try to cover all bases with that. They've also expressed interest in having sort of you know, on a Saturday morning we want to have a few of our vendors or whatever out there and have displays. And, you know, we've kind of said you really don't have the – we don't have a mechanism to allow that right now. So I thought we've had those conversations as we're writing the language. Maybe we include something for that. That was kind of the thinking. But I want to make sure that it's mostly related to boating and marine recreation.

Okay. That brings up another question. Peter was talking about the number of boats that can be out there. If there was a number, we don't know if there was or it wasn't. Do we have to write something that would cover other marine boating equipment, like sometimes he has the docks out there, sometimes he has a boat lift out there. Now, that's all related to boating. Do we need to make a special thing for that, or that just can be under boating accessories?

I think, in my two cents, if it's on The law permitted for a marina, those are accessory uses. The reason we need to do this is they're not on the same lot.

Yeah, I agree. Exactly.

Right. So if it's a marina, they can do the marina stuff and their accessory use stuff. That's exactly right.

But the marina is across the road, right?

Yeah. Just the water.

That's strictly docking of boats and fueling of boats. That's all it is.

and putting them in all the water and if you had a large parcel right right like some of the ones along the shoreline or the river or whatever you've got these marinas that are around a 60 acre parcel and so you can fit all your uses onto that one in this case we don't have that so so is the marina itself permitted the little building across the street and the on the i think so sometimes yes and sometimes no and that's what's across the street i would say all that was permitted by us because we went through that with all the docks when we wanted to put it in with the fuel tank okay and everything so that was one of the modifications that came through the ramp was there long before...

The marina was put in by the Army Corps.

Army Corps of Engineers. Where the dock is, certainly the special permit that exists sits on that parcel.

The fuel tank and fuel...

Yes. There's no question about that. That parcel is the marina. That's been permitted. There's no issue. What's somewhat questionable is the building across the street where he operates and has his office and his sales and all that stuff.

And I thought we had many discussions on that when we were doing the marina across the street.

So, I mean, I don't know if I feel like you can't really have a marina without an office that's, you know, supports the marina. So I would be supportive. And if, you know, we document that the marina is that parcel in the water, that's the marina. Right. And then anything else. needs to get this marine services approval.

Well, the big building across the street, there was always an office in there, right after Tato's. There was always an office in there. And then when Don tore down the building in front and put the showroom in, that's the showroom. That must have been permitted for a showroom at the time. And then there was a repair bay in back. where the boats were fixed. So that building has been used for all these things continuously. There's really no issue about that building being used for those things.

That's the part that's somewhat unclear in the record that exists. I more or less came to that conclusion, but I wasn't fully there.

But if we had to codify that somehow.

And I think we should.

You know, if he comes in, we can kind of, you know.

Somehow those two pieces of properties need to be tied together, even though. Right. They're separate. They should be considered.

I think they're on one deed.

Well, they should be considered as one property. I mean, I don't know how it's in the town hall, if it's one deed or not, but they should be considered as one property. What two properties is this? What's that? The left side where the docks are and the building, the other side of the street where the building is. Yeah, that's probably all one deed. Those should be, if they're under one deed especially, they should be considered one property. Yeah.

I think they're all on one deed. It's hard to make them one property because you've got a road running through them.

But they're on one deed. Because then I think we should be considering them as one property.

One and the same.

So we can get into all those nuances once we get an application in here.

There's a lot of, you know, he's got that where the store used to be there, that was torn down and never got a change of use for that building behind the end. And then the garage behind the end where now he put the fence up and he's got both storage back there. That was never had a change of use on it.

And that's why we're, that's why we're having this conversation.

Right. Right. Right. Yeah. So, I think it's going to be a long conversation.

Well, and that's okay. So I'm hearing some adjustments that we should make. We'll look at the major and minor site plan stuff and what uses those should be. I've got a couple of notes in here.

So when you write in here under for the LLCs, da, da, da, da,

Let's see, be ownership.

Ownership, yeah, okay. You know, would it be beneficial to change it to read or controlled by a majority owned, controlled and majority owned by the same ownership?

Or majority control, how did you say, what did you say?

To read or controlled and majority owned by the same ownership. I think that's where we're going to get into some trouble there with the LLCs.

Well, I think that's where that legally affiliated with.

Yeah, that's right. And I was struggling with the verbiage on this. I certainly... Yeah, that makes it something that needs to be looked at first. Yeah, well, I'll have somebody much smarter than I look at that.

We'll see how it should be worded so that we can tie it under one ownership.

Yeah, and all the LLCs do trace back to the same principal being here.

Do they trace back to the same principal or trace back to the same address? The same principal. You've actually looked at the LLCs?

Yeah, at one point I created a spreadsheet to try to figure out. It's a big one. Yeah, I've looked at them. Okay.

I never went down that road. So the only other thing I have is There is a vessel length restriction on the lake. It's a town ordinance. It's 240-4. Should that be part of this thing about watching boats longer than, that violate the town ordinance?

doing this.

Not allowed to have boats on premises?

Not necessarily not allowed because that restricts him from selling boats. He could be doing work at there selling them.

He could sell them but he can't sell them to... Can't have them in the marina.

He can't have them in the marina. He can't launch them. because they violate the town ordinance. Other lakes, they're legal on, but they're not legal on highway.

But I think we go back to that as part of the marina regulation, right?

That's what I'm thinking. We're looking at, and we don't really have a marina regulation. We have an ordinance. The town has an ordinance. There is no zoning regulation on what a marina is. We have marina as a use. That's why we created a definition. So we could put together a marina regulation. I think it's somewhat redundant.

We have a town ordinance. We'd have to take it from ordinance to a regulation.

But think about the enforcement of that. An ordinance is the police enforcement. That's why they're out there with the bow and they're regulating that. What are we going to do?

Send Jeff out there swimming after the boat. They wouldn't let me get a boat.

I could go with the police. I lined up that one time and then it fell through, but it's a standing offer.

If you do that, you've got to put your blinders on.

Well, that's the thing.

You don't want to look at the shorelines.

Right. But, you know, and I think this is a trouble with, you know, we put a regulation together that says, okay, well, the ordinance, I forgot what the number is, 22-foot boat or whatever. So, okay, so under the regulation it says you can't launch anything more than 22 feet. But then you go to the state boat launch and people from all over the state can do whatever they want. So, you know, I think we have an operator over there who, I mean, I don't know, right? I'm not up there. I don't know what he's launching. I don't know what the people own that have been accepted as docs. But, you know, we can have conversations with him. We can, you know, we have an ordinance.

The guy at the state won't launch?

No, any of them, right? I mean, you can launch whatever you want over at the state.

They cannot deny anybody from launching. Right, exactly.

I don't think we try to regulate that through zoning. I don't think we have any enforcement power to do it.

Just stick it with an ordinance. Let the town ordinance, the police, and DEP deal with that.

So the last thing that I just, and this is totally, I can go either way, but you have the uses.

Yeah.

Should we combine the definition and the uses so that they're,

We could, sure.

Just so there's no question of, well, it says, like, just so that's totally your call. But what I'm thinking is as you get into the major and the minor, it might make sense to... Yeah, okay.

I don't know.

Yeah, combined up with... Just reflect all the same uses in both. I mean, if the definition reflects them all, then you go to the use table and then that's going to direct you to the regulation and that's where you get your major and minor. But as long as the uses are all listed in both places. Right? Is that what you're saying?

No. What I'm saying is we have two different definitions.

Two different definitions.

We have two different definitions. One's a minor and one's a major. And then the major is, you know, the repair and the washing and the minor is some of the other stuff. Then we don't need the uses. I gotcha. I got it. Okay. Because it's already defined in the two definitions.

Okay. That makes sense. I understand.

Okay. Done for tonight? Yeah.

This is why we didn't share them with Eric. All right, so I'll make some changes. All right.

We'll go at it again. Very good. Thank you. So we'll move on to number nine. Approval of minutes for May 18th, 2026 special meeting. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on.

You got something to say?

Charlene was a little disappointed in the minutes, so she would like to have added to them. She expresses disappointment over the sale of the Gilson Theater and the type of business moving into the prominent Main Street space. Over the five years that the theater was on the market for sale, the town should have made an effort to help the owner slash seller market the business to an appropriate buyer using town resources such as Economic Development Commission and the town manager's office. It's a significant lost tour downtown. She has said that during the meeting, and the minutes didn't reflect that, and she would like that added to the meetings, the minutes.

Can we have the verbiage, and we'll get it added to this? Lauren has it. Oh, you already have it? Okay.

Has anybody come in for a...

I'll second it.

With the addition? Not yet, but they have been in touch with the office. I make a motion to approve with the addition of Charlene's comments.

I will second it. All in favor?

Okay. The sad part is the town usually does drag their feet, and that's the problem.

I can tell you, though. I did try to help them.

People dragged their feet in Torrington? Look at Torrington growing like a son of a gun. And over the years, Winston's always been the same.

Yeah, I don't think it had to do with that.

All right, so communications. Does anybody have anything for us? Nothing, okay. And we'll move on to number 11, adjournment. I'll make a motion to adjourn.

Second.

What's the matter?

I fell asleep. I got up early this morning. All in favor? Aye.

Aye.

And what did you want to do with the old Gilson? Was there any plans?

And I had just assumed it was youth, but it's not. This is like adult men's league competition.