Council - Special Meeting

Good evening. Tonight is Monday, July 13, 2026 at 7. 19 PM in Wilson City Chamber. This is a special City Council meeting. We will have a call to order roll call miss right?

Mayor Goodman.

I am here.

Council President Hines.

Here.

Vice President Jones. Here. Council Member Cox.

Here.

Council Member Martin. Here. Council Member Church.

Here.

Attorney Kirsten Ballou.

Here.

Interim slash city clerk Latricia Wright. I am here. And all other staff, Benton Stegall.

Here.

And Gerald. Thank you.

We'll have the opening prayer and the players of allegiance to the flag by Mayor Charles Goodman.

Lord, we come here tonight to do the business of our municipality. And Lord, we look to you for guidance and to give us the wisdom that is necessary for us to make good decisions for our citizens. Lord, I ask you to be each one of these counselors, to guide them in a way that Only you can do. And Lord, I ask you to give them wisdom to understand the issues and the ability to make the decisions even if they're hard. And Lord, I thank you for each one of these people that have taken time out of their life to come to this meeting to watch government in action. And I ask all this in your name. Amen. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Amen. Thank you.

Item number one, additions, deletions, changes, and approval of the agenda.

I move approval of the agenda as presented tonight.

I second. I have a motion and a second. Any further discussion? Seeing none, I move to vote. All those in favor say aye.

Aye.

All those opposed say nay. Motion passes five to zero. Item number two is public participation. This is gonna be your first of two opportunities to speak on anything that is not on the agenda tonight. Please state your name, where you're from, and you have five minutes to speak.

My name is Joel Penny.

I live at 43 Northwest 4th Street.

I'm Joel Penny. I live at 43 Northwest 4th Street. I just was wondering, have y'all come to a conclusion to handle Ms. Deborah Jones? I mean, like, controller or anything? Because apparently when she was in conversation with Ms. Martin, everything she said was a lie. So, I mean, can someone fix that and address it, please?

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Are you done, Mr. Panning? Thank you. Does anybody have anything to say?

in regards to hiring of our next city manager? Is this the appropriate time?

Yes, ma'am. Actually, it's not because it's about what we're talking about tonight. At the second participation.

This is anything not on our agenda.

Forgive me.

Sorry. I'm blaming it on her. It's okay. We love you.

Do I have to go up there or can I just speak from here? You have to go up here. To the podium, please.

Because it's recorded.

Okay. I'm Judy Marino and I live here in Williston and I've lived in Williston in the Williston area and in Williston since 1971. And I'm heartbroken guys. Y'all work for us. I'm you know, I'm truly heartbroken from where we've been and where we are today. I'm afraid of losing our town. I really am. And I just, I know I probably haven't participated enough, but I've raised a lot of children. I'm helping to raise a lot of grandchildren. And I've worked for 38 years in government. And I'm a very busy person. And I just, from what I can see and what I hear, and I don't know, I'm not blaming or pointing fingers at anybody. And Deborah, I've known you forever. And you've stuck it out. thick and thin with this, with this city. And, um, you know, I'm not here to tear anybody down or, or to blow anybody up. And I'm going to tell you, I'm very disheartened, um, by what our town has turned into. And, uh, it's pretty, some days it's comical and then some days it's just heart wrenching to me. Uh, and some of the things that are just going on, uh, the, and like I said, I'm just in my opinion. And on another note, I mean, I hadn't planned to say this, but there's been many times in the last 50 years that I personally have asked people, hey, what's going on with this? You're one of them. What's going on with that? Like I've always gotten an honest answer. You know, that's all I've got to say.

Thank you. Anyone else?

Seeing none, we will move forward.

On to new business. Item number A, discussion with possible action hiring of a new city manager, objectives and procedures. Would anyone like to start?

Did we have a general? Consensus on how we wanted to start I. Took into consideration everything that we had discussed in the past couple of meetings, how we had done it in the past and what we have all voiced what we were looking for and what things we were not looking for and trying to keep it in perspective to what's being asked of us now to find somebody to take Patricia's place as of now and to also and or look for someone in the long term. So, the notes that I have typed up and provided for everybody and made it to where the public can also see just kind of provided us with 2 different options. Whether we decided to look into getting someone as of right now, after posting for an interim city manager, and we can discuss how we want it. How many months what what's the timeframe? Where's the time? We would. Say, okay, I think we're, we're good now as of this point, whether it be November, January, how everyone do it as of when we want to post for the long term. And I kind of just put it down on on paper just to make it a little easy for us to understand and the different sections that I like to see as far as. What I would hope that our interim city manager would be able to do during their timeframe here. Or if we decided to get a long term full term city manager, what I would hope that they would do with that timeframe here. And it basically just goes into different sections, such as. The interim leadership and stabilization organizational assessment. Budget and compensation review, then the recruitment launch, which are usually be right after review in the budget. And then going into sourcing and screening, such as the interviews going through the different candidates, seeing who we think would be a good fit for our city right now for what we're looking for. And then, of course, selection and onboarding. So, if anyone has any questions regarding. What I had provided, it also goes a little bit more into detail of the research I was able to come up with. I know right now it's a little hard to get certain documents to go off of contracts. So I went with what was available to me based off of previous knowledge and off of the public information online. So I had posted everyone from 2012. To now all of our interim and long term city managers when they started how they came in to be how much money they were making just to kind of see if there was a pattern of flow and then what led to their departure just so we can kind of see how we as a whole have handled. Finding a city manager and what we were able to find during those times just so we can kind of review how we've done it so far and how we want to do it differently. Um, if anybody has any questions or would like for me to emphasize on any of the sections, please let me know.

Mr bear.

Give me that.

I have a couple of questions.

I was given 2 pieces of paper these both from you.

No, sir. The manager recruitment plan revised.

Okay, thank you. That clarified a lot. May I ask where these came from? The city clerk. City clerk.

Those are two descriptions of the duties of a city manager. Job description, I'm sorry.

So they came from the city clerk and interim city manager? Yes, sir. Thank you. I want to talk about these first. There was a couple of things on here, this Williston city manager job description that was given to us by Patricia, right? Regular hours. I don't believe that's possible with someone in a manager's position to have hours just from 4 to 8. I think the hours must be changed to one that is more in keeping with the position. That's just my opinion. Council can do what they choose. And the other thing is under essential duties and responsibilities, in big, bold print, it states directly under it that it's the responsibility of the city manager to attend all meetings of the city council unless excused by the council, council president or the mayor. And if you go down to item C, it says attend all city council meetings unless excused by the city council alone. And I think those are at odds with each other and you should consider correcting them. Thank you.

Mayor, let me just add this in. This comes from the HR director. She put together a job description for the council to go through and take out what they don't want and add what they would like. Now, you were stating that I'm looking at 40 hours per week. Is that what you were talking about?

I don't know that that is a reasonable thing for a city manager who may in fact work 60 hours and may at some weeks only work 30 hours. And when you not only say 40 hours a week, but you put time constraints of 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. That means at 5 p.m., they no longer have to do anything. They're just gone. It is not an eight to five position any more than being a council is the position of just attending these meetings or the mayor of just attending these meetings. And I think you should reconsider that time constraints. If you want to put in, you can put in whatever you choose. At least 40 hours a week, that's fine. But trying to create time constraints for a city manager, I think is a questionable thing. Thank you.

Ms. Jones?

I would point out that if you read the whole sentence, it says 40 hours per week requires attending meetings and city business outside the regular hours of 8 to 5. So I think that's fine. It does probably need to say it's an exempt position, you know, not hourly. I would probably add those words because that's what most people are looking for.

Salary.

I would agree with Deborah.

I'm going to say the same thing. I think it reads okay. I do agree that there is a conflict in the other two sections that the mayor has stated and I think that it probably needs to be that they inform the city clerk and that the council can then make a decision whether they're excused or not. That's normally we don't excuse them. We know where they are.

Yeah, I would tend to grab it to me. It reads regular week is 40 hours per week, but then required to attend meetings and city business outside of regular hours. So maybe we just need to rephrase that for better clarity.

Read it all together. Yeah.

Madam President, if I may just add, I believe what the mayor is trying to say is there are a lot of jobs such as a city manager where you try to keep everything within a 40 hour window frame and there are nights where you're putting in more or certain special circumstances that are outside of just a meeting. may allow that person to work up to 40 50 hours per week and they're not putting in those extra hours because they are salary they're just not being held by the contract or the job description saying when as soon as four or five o'clock hits you have to put down the pin and walk out I think that, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's what he's just trying to mention is that, you know, we recognize that that is possibly a huge factor and that we're not just trying to tell them at a certain point in time, stop, leave, that there may be more expectations. And that's not what it says, though.

Exactly. But they still need to have a minimum amount of hours that they need to be here. So instead of saying regular, you could probably say minimum since they're salaried.

Exactly, just clarification.

And I would start, I would take out the word shift. And put the position as an exempt position, regularly 40 hours a week, requiring attending meetings of business outside of the regular hours. And I would leave out the eight to five altogether, just outside of regular hours. But what are going to be the regular hours? I mean, you don't want somebody coming in here at noon. Regular business hours.

I'm just saying. She gave me this look like. I'm just saying, I mean.

Who, me?

No, our attorney.

I can give you that look.

I'm sorry. What I'm saying is there needs to be, even if it's not an ending time, at least a starting time. Because you don't want them to just come in whenever they feel like it. Nine percent. Yes, ma'am.

And I think on the other hand of what the mayor was talking about when it comes to clear, clear expectations on, let's say, let's say the city manager is not able to attend this next coming up meeting. She knows or he knows without a doubt they contact person A, which would be city clerk or whoever we deem. And then they are responsible to getting that information to the council or whoever may be the next in line. so that way there's no oh my understanding is this my understanding is that it's very clear in the job description exactly who they report that information to and whose final decision for approval or non-approval if I'm correct Mr. Mayor Mr. Mayor

I'm sorry, was that directed at me?

Sort of.

I just wanted to make sure I'm understanding what you were saying about... What you said was basically the same thing worded a different way, and I don't care if it's the clerk, but they obviously cannot contact five counselors to get permission, and no one counselor has authority to give that permission. Exactly.

start Vanessa would it make any sense since our City Hall is open from 7 until 4 for the city managers hours to align with that so that they are able to communicate with the staff for staff meetings you know if they get here at 8 and the staff meetings at 9 do the staff then sort of have their morning interrupted by the city manager arriving at 8 I don't know the answer to that, but food for thought.

I think we're getting too far down in the weeds. I think they're an exempt employee and we're hiring them to be the manager. And hopefully we're going to hire somebody with enough character that they're going to know what to do. I know it's a terrible thing to say, but I don't think we need to have hours. 40 hours a week, knowing that it's going to be outside the regular business hours.

I think most businesses have hours that they have, but with the knowledge or an understanding that they may have to work outside their boundaries. City Attorney Ballou?

To the extent that this assists the discussion, our standard language in our agreement with the city manager is the following. The proper performance of the city manager's duties require the city manager to generally observe normal business hours and will also often require the performance of necessary services outside of those normal business hours. The city manager shall devote such additional time as is necessary for full and proper performance of the city manager's duties, and the compensation provided includes compensation for the performance of all such services. That's in the contract. That's in the contract. So that general language, if you're in agreement with that, we can put into the description.

We are, because it still says business hours, which is still what's sitting there. So, that's fine for me.

That's fine for you.

All right. So, we'll change that language.

All right.

All right, so let's, we'll go ahead and go through this city manager job description that we initially had. Did everybody get a chance to take a look and read the job description, general job description that we had from last, this one?

This was the posting that went on the Florida League of Cities job site. So it actually tells a little bit about our city.

Latricia, sorry. So this is the one we used in 2024? Or is this one that was revised by Kim?

That one was used in 2022.

This one was revised by Kim.

The revised one is the two-page fund back.

That we, she just said this was the one that was on the job posting. So we need clarification. Which is which.

Kim emailed us one that was the one that was used for Ms. Boudet when we ended up hiring Ms. Boudet.

So that was the initial, I mean the original.

Which one?

Most the one the most recent, the one that is in the computer that can send us, which is what I was wanting to make sure that she did not send me that 1. Oh, okay.

I also don't have a copy of that because I can tell you that that's the 1 she found at the time.

She sent it all of us. Yeah, a week ago.

never received an email from HR before but then again I do not have access still to our you know it's a lot of stuff my biggest concern with this one was that it said 50 foot 50 full-time employees and I'm just trying to make sure cuz my last understanding is that we have over a hundred and so employees I know that's the old one I think that's also including yeah your department in the fire department fire department it's just talking about the city itself yeah okay the fire department wanted to make sure part-time so the city itself excluding those two departments is 50. city hall city hall okay so you didn't get the one from you didn't get the one from kim no ma'am i have not seen the one that she sent you all

Can you, Ms. Meredith, you have it pulled up? I do. Can you forward it to Ms. Latricia, please? I sure can. That way.

I can tell you when I got it, I came down here and talked to her about it. And it was one she found in her office. And if you look at it, it says draft on the top. And it was not the one that was actually used. And I thought it said 2024.

This one right here is 2024. Okay. The one page is 2024.

So we got too many things floating around.

And the four-page one is 2022.

And this is the one that was actually posted on Indeed. Okay. And the Florida League posted. I can tell you that it was because I sat in her office today and she pulled it up and showed it to me. Which one?

Actually, there were two.

It was the one for... Jackie and the one for Sue. And what she did was she, that's when they say they couldn't bind them, that's what she did. She took part of the one that was for Jackie and part of the one that was for Sue and she put them together because there were two postings on the Indeed.

Why did we have two?

Madam President, people in the audience do not know what we're talking about. when you're saying this one and you're showing it to the president doesn't help with the people that are watching or the people in the audience so specifically are you talking about the one that says city manager job description i don't know what you're waving around over there yes sir that's the one i'm waving around thank you but they all say that

And we're trying to get a clear understanding ourselves of what we have before us. Go ahead. All right. Then let me explain that again.

They do not all say that.

OK. The one.

They don't all say what? One says Williston city manager job description. The other one says city manager job description. There is a difference in the header. That is why I'm asking for a clarity.

okay clarification the one that says williston city manager job description is from 2022 and it's six pages well three pages front and back the single page that says city manager job description this is what she pulled from indeed and then she copied and pasted some other information off of another job description

And that was during the time that we hired Ms.? This is from 2024. Okay. All right, so let's discuss the job description itself, the city, Wilson City Manager job description. um we'll look at this job description that was posted on indeed in florida legal cities in a little bit all right so um we're gonna re word um the hours for our city manager And then if it's okay, let's move forward and go through the job description and then come back to salary, because I believe that's going to be a really big discussion. I agree. So when it says the city manager is going to report to the city, the citizens and the city council, was that in the previous, do we have the previous job description prior to this one?

by chance is that the one you said that we have in the computer this this one is older than the one that was emailed by HR but I would say having written having read sorry both of them bet on too many horses today I'm riding, have read both of them that the one that was printed out is more in depth and more explicit. And I think what my personal feeling is probably if we work off of this one, we're going to get everything we need for the one that Kim sent to us. Especially since Shanna has not had an opportunity to read that one. I'm not seeing anything in the one on our desk in front of us that is not also, with the exception of a couple things like must be able to twist and look behind them while working and must be able to lift 10 pounds and things like that. That's why I knew it. All that stuff is the reason.

And the starting salary. Or the reason I knew it was not the right one. Which is why I came to see her. Okay.

all right so um general direction from the city manager will take general direction from the mayor president and city council is everyone okay with that in agreement so my my only concerns with the reports to and general direction from is that section

3.02 of your charter talks about your um your charter officers which the city manager is one of and it says the charter officer shall be appointed by the city council and shall serve at the pleasure of the city council upon such terms and conditions as the city councils have determined so i just want to make sure that we're clear in our job description that certainly they're accountable to the citizens but they report to the city council, and certainly they will discuss with the mayor and the president and the council members, but the direction comes from the council as a whole.

Okay, so we will remove reports to citizens and general direction from mayor and president to city council. Okay, so the purpose and nature of the job, the city manager is appointed and provided by the charter. The city manager shall be the chief administrative officer. City manager shall be responsible to the city council for the efficient administration of the city government. The city manager shall carry out all policies, procedures, ordinances, rules and regulations of of the council. Mr. Fuller, I'm sorry. Yeah, I did say I was coming to you. I forgot you, I'm sorry.

Thank you, Albert Fuller. I live at 820 Northeast 3rd Avenue in Williston. I guess I'm a little concerned about the process tonight because there's a lot of documents that we haven't had an opportunity to see at any point, which makes it very difficult for the citizens to follow. And somehow, I would hope that there'd be at least one document that some that you all go from this either put up here or. This being the document that you all work with that says wilson city manager job description, because it just makes it very difficult for public participation without. And the other point, I was wondering if, at what point, as you go through the job description, at what point does the public have the opportunity to comment rather than wait till the end? Are there points at which we will have that opportunity to comment?

That's 100% up to you.

would say raise your hand if you got something to say i don't know is it is it in the in the agenda yeah if she it's not an agenda she can't put it on screen gotcha um yeah i would say as we go through if there is any questions or comments okay or at the end of each page that's a good idea

And I would say that we only got this tonight too. So we haven't we haven't seen it either.

It was handed to us to that. So I would say after each item that we're going through.

Thank you.

At the end of each item. So if you guys have any questions just wait until the item is done. Yes ma'am. If you will come to the mic.

don't know her name either I appreciate that you just shared that I'm Rachel Flynn I live in Williston and I have no idea where we are I eat on which are we on the 2022 or the 2024 so so while you guys are talking to each other we're out here in the audience with no idea where you are so if you could be very specific as if um so even to say we are on the city manager job description from 2024 which we all know is the short one right it doesn't say williston and we are on the second paragraph third sentence discussing this because i have no idea where we are so i'm i'm lost okay thank you yep so i i did say which one we were going to be looking at and discussing from

and prior to talking i did say that we are on essential duties and responsibilities so i am saying then i'm reading it so you have to kind of like read along with me or read ahead but i did so i do the the item and then i read the information so that everybody can hear what i'm talking about and then we can discuss it and if you have any questions at the end of the page then you just come back up and We'll have discussion. Is that okay? Tell her again which one we're on. So right now, we are right underneath essential duties and responsibilities, and we just covered that little paragraph, that little blurb.

And we're on the Williston City Manager description. 2022. I didn't know which one it was.

Yes, sir. I'm Joel Penny. Why can't we just do it at every paragraph so it's not so difficult? Because apparently there's some miscommunication between them and y'all.

I think we just cleared it up. Okay. Thank you. You get a pen to write down any information you want to hold on? Okay. Yes, sir.

Mr. Cox did our HR director contact any other municipalities this kind of the way that their job description is for their managers just to see where we're at versus the other ones because you know with us we're different than say Trenton um or hawthorne for the sake is we got utilities we got gas we got all these different things so we have to look at you know municipality who is very similar to us but i would be curious to see how they have theirs written i can only speak to me i was not contacted

And I can tell you, I haven't seen anything different from her, but I did print four off of the Florida Legacy's website today, just to see what their format was. And some of them were straightforward, like the job description that we're looking at now, the Williston City Manager job description. And some of them are very narrative, like the City Manager job description that starts out telling you about the City of Williston. and who we are before it tells what we're looking for. So there's a couple of different ways. Some of them, and I can pass them down if you want me to. Some of them actually do the charter sections that actually tell you what the charter provisions are. Some of them start very, one of them, only one page long. This is the one that actually starts talking about

Can you say what town it is that you're talking about?

Yeah, it starts talking about the city and how beautiful it is. It's a vibrant lakefront property, which is kind of like the actual posting. So I think the job description and the posting need to read two completely different ways. That's why we need both of them. I would agree. That's just my opinion, of course.

just so that we know that we already have it the one that was emailed by Kim does have at the very end of it the designation of the charter officers so it is it was part of the most recent one certainly would be easy enough just to add that on at the end is there a way I could get a copy of that while we're in the meeting so I can review it

I mean, the one that was sent from Kim. Did you forward it to her? I did. I sent it to her. Oh, you forwarded it to her.

Okay.

Thank you, ma'am.

Do you want us to wait until you get back, or are you just going to? Okay. Okay.

so question we have the 2022 job description that we're reviewing right now but apparently there's an updated version so i guess my question is why are we going over the 2022 to update it when there's an already updated one there's there's not this one that because we didn't update it is even older but she said it was from my understanding kim just emailed one she did but it's a really old one So this is the current job description that went out with the most recent posting. The 2022 one that we have is the most recent job description that was created and up to date. That's not the new salary that Kim just mentioned or whatnot that you guys were trying to discuss that Kim just emailed out.

I think what her confusion is, she's asking was the 2022 1 updated and turned into the 2024 1 and if so, why are we looking at updating a 2022 1 when the 2024 was supposed to be the updated version of it?

Correct. Yeah, or like, what's the 1 sent out? Like, I'm not understanding, like, the 2022 1 is the most recent updated job description that we have not including the charters that were mentioned or whatnot.

I will say that our current HR director was not, we had an interim HR director when we were in the process of hiring somebody in 2024. So it is possible that that job description was not, that we used was not memorialized as the most recent. updated one which is why we are working with kind of coupled yeah the 2022 which I think is the most from what I've read and make sure to disagree the most thorough job description that we have available to us at this point so my question is

This 2024, that is when y'all hired Sue. Y'all based on this, right? And the salary and everything else. Then why is that not? Why are you looking at me like I'm crazy? I'm asking.

Because I'm not speaking to you. That's why. You can ask the president, not me.

Can someone please give me an answer on that? May I try?

Sure, go ahead. We had different HR people when the 2024 was used and yes it was enforced when we hired Sue Badu and it was not necessarily the best one it was simply the one that was enforced in 2024 hiring her and what this council is attempting to do is to go back to 2022 because if you look at 2024 it's rather vague and this council is attempting to get it straightened out because we have a third HR person now who is very competent and trying to do a good job And so they're trying to get a document that actually does describe the position and the job, which 2024 did not.

So 2024, they hire Sue at $60,000.

That is correct. $60,000. Okay, I'll find out. That's not correct.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

Ms. Markham, can you please tell me?

I'll just state that the salary on here is a range that we work with. So what her salary was when she was hired is not necessarily the exact number that is on this. This is a range for what we are willing to pay based on somebody's experience. So this is not an exact number that was paid.

Thank you for clarifying.

No problem.

Okay, so we're going to go back to essential duties and responsibilities. We want the city manager to attend all meetings of the city council unless excused there from the council, the council president, or the mayor, see the laws and ordinance are enforced, and that the provisions of all franchises, leases, contracts, permits, and privileges are granted by the council are observed. So... With this 1, we need to remove the mayor, right? Anything else in there we see that we need to exclude or add the mayor did all of the council agree to deleting the mayor. Well, we're discussing. Nobody has said anything different.

Okay. I'm ready to cross it out, but I don't want to do it on discussion.

Yeah. It coincides with what we discussed earlier about the Mexican system.

So, yes, you can scratch it. I'll line through, sir.

Madam President, before we move on to the next portion, I will just note that when you start with further she slash he shall, A through H is explicitly from your charter, so I would not deviate from that, at least as far as that wording. We can clarify, of course, in other places, but that's the explicit wording from your charter.

Okay, perfect, so we don't have to add it, it's already there. How wonderful.

Ms. Shannon, did you have something? No. Oh, okay. I thought you wanted to say something.

I was just saying thank you for pointing that out. Yeah.

All right, so we're going to read through it anyway, okay? So further she slash he she he shall a direct and supervise in accordance with the city ordinance and administrative policies as may be adopted by the city council. The administration of all departments of the city except the the police department and the fire department and the office of the city clerk. B, when necessary, appoint, suspend, demote, or dismiss any city employee under his or her supervision in accordance with the law and the city's administrative and personal policies and may authorize any department head under his or her supervision to exercise these powers with respect to subordinate employees in the department. C. Attend all City Council meetings unless excused by the City Council and have the right to take part in discussion but not vote. D. See that all laws, charter provisions, ordinances, resolutions, and other acts of City Council related to department under his or her supervision are faithfully executed. E, prepare and submit the annual budget, budget messages, and capital program to the city council, keep the city council fully advised as to the financial condition and the future needs of the city, and make such recommendations to the city council concerning the affairs of the city as she or he deems appropriate. f in the event of any temporary absence or disability of the city manager designate a qualified city employee to exercise the powers and duties of the city manager during such time provided that the city council may revoke such designation at any time and appoint some other eligible person to serve as acting city manager g not have the power to enter into any agreement negotiate or other arrangement with any individual group organization or governmental body which would require policy making decisions by the council without the prior knowledge and approval of the city council h perform such other duties as required by law or by the city council

Is that a sneeze? It's a belch. It's a belch.

All right, then we're going to advise the city manager will advise the Council of the municipal electrical and gas utility industries as it impacts on the city's distribution system. Recommend to the Council in writing for his consideration such measures that she he may deem necessary or expedient. Formulate and recommend to the Mayor and City Council the adoption of such measures as made from time to time. deemed necessary or advisable for the health, safety, and welfare of the city and its inhabitants, or for the improvement of administrative and departmental functions and services. Responsible for overseeing the writing and administration of city grants, and specific and special funds the city manager will be expected to participate in various community oriented events organizations etc which will sometimes go beyond normal working hours Any comments?

Yes, I just had a question regarding the policy on how the updates from the department heads get to the city manager and how the city manager is hopefully expected to report such information to us. So we know what's going on. We can get the information without having to have an issue of the sunshine law and have it to where it's the same all the time. So we know what to expect. We don't have to have, you know, reach out and say, hey, I know we only got this couple of days ago. I only have two days. Can I quickly get a meeting? If it's something that we tell them ahead of time in the job description, we expect biweekly. you know, updates to the council or however, just so we can kind of set that boundary from the get go that organization and communication are very much a requirement for the job. I wanted to get your thoughts on that.

So the last two city managers did that and it was an expectation that we spoke to them about upon hiring. Are you saying you want it written down somewhere?

I was hoping for that just because when I first met with Sue and during that timeframe, one of her department heads came in and gave her a quick update. And, you know, her response was whatever you think that, you know, you know, best. Right. And I said, well, how do your department heads give you your information? Is it weekly, biweekly? And she goes, whenever, however they want. And I was like, okay, so is it in writing? Is it in spreadsheet? She goes, however, they decided to send it to me. And that to me, it was a huge red flag. I'm like, how are you on top of what's going on to tell the council? you're just getting it randomly from whoever however so my understanding was that there was no policy and I wanted for clarification and for transparency purposes not just for us to understand what to expect of them but for the residents to understand how the process goes I was hoping we could however the language may be hopefully put that in there to let it be they can make it their own but what we expect of them overall if that makes sense

I would agree with Ms. Church on both items that she discussed, both the receiving information from the department heads in a way that is recordable and preserved so that we have a record of updates and then secondly so that information is then disseminated to the council equally which obviously was the issue that I had at the last meeting and have had in the past before that we are not all operating with the same set of facts at times when we come to the meetings to make decisions and i would like to do our utmost best to because i actually think that this council we are more often in agreement than we are not it is just the manner in which we get there that becomes an issue and so if we could resolve some of that here um and and hold the city manager accountable for making sure that each council member gets the same

information the discussions that are had about that information obviously will be unique to each council member but the information that we get is the same from council member to council member that that was something that police chief rolls was working on it happened for a couple meetings where the department heads went to him they explained everything to him what was going on this and that and then he presented it at the council meeting so it was kind of going that way so you know when the new city manager comes about then we just say this is what we would like because let's face it our whole dynamics can be changing with the new city manager you know so i i think with sue

Well, at least my experience with Sue and with Terry. They both did those things. Anytime I went to Terry's office and he discussed anything about what was going on, updates, he had his tablet in front of him. And that's what he went by when he gave me updates. Sue, when I went in with her, she had her little whatever. So I think they both are still, were still doing the same things that we are speaking of. think we just need to be careful how we word and be mindful of how we tell somebody how to do their job because how they do their job if I'm saying it correctly how they do their job maybe everybody may have the same type of understanding of how to do the job but people do the job differently and it doesn't mean that it's bad or that it's good So I just think we, not saying that we can't do that, we just need to be mindful of how we say that, if that makes sense.

And I would tend to agree in that I think we need them to do that, no doubt at all, so that we do all receive the same information. I do think once we receive that information, some of us have further conversations that others may not do.

Which is what she was saying. The conversation would probably be different, but everybody would get the same information. So if we ask or recommend that everybody receives the information in written form, Then wherever the discussion you have with that person is your discussion. Give me just a 2nd, Mr Benton.

Yes, ma'am can hear me. Yes. Okay. I was, I was literally going to say the same thing. You were, I would just be careful in how specific you dive into. Yeah, micromanaging them. Because different people have different leadership styles. I wholly agree with you that this individual, whoever comes next, needs to report to you guys in a timely fashion and accurately. And it needs to be recorded in a way that we are held accountable, they are held accountable, and everybody is held accountable to the city. I would just be very cognizant of... how tightly you grasp your fist, as it were.

Again, to finish the sentence, I was trying to finish. I was actually agreeing with both of you. I believe that we need that, but I don't know that it needs to go in a job description.

No.

Because then you become the micromanager.

Right. And every manager has their own stuff.

Because it says in here that they report to us in a timely manner. Right. It says that already.

The only thing that I was pointing out is that, like you said, and like I had said when I started is, yes, everyone does make it their own. But if we leave it to the unspoken rule, then it's, oh, I'll get with them or, you know, I had that intention and then it may not actually happen. So we don't have to necessarily say you're expected to report to us every week. We can just say that qualifications that we are looking for are Constant communication, transparency, things of that nature that sets we want to meet with you on a regular basis. Definitely part of the interview process. Exactly. Instead of it coming off as micromanaging, because I'm very also against micromanaging, it makes you unproductive in the end. But I think setting that boundary, especially if they're familiar with us and familiar with what we've gone through, they'll know what it is that we need and what it is that is really important for not just us to operate to the best of our ability, but also for our residents to understand what we're doing and what our overall goal is. So, yes, not the micromanaging part, but I just was hoping for something on there that would show them we do have that expectation.

Right. Just a second.

Yes, sir. Yes. Madam president, I would recommend to the, to the council that is not to confuse 2 processes is 1 is the job description should be a box that kind of list the job and then probably the development and acceptance of. a performance standard document that is dynamic and changes. It kind of gets into the weeds and the wheelhouse of this is how you communicate because, as well pointed out, you don't want to micromanage. Someone might do everything electronically, something like pen and paper. And so I try to keep this job description very concrete. say this is what the job is, then develop as a supplemental document with public input, what is the performance standards? What is the frequency of communication? What is the means of communication? How often are you expected to have meetings or public input? And do that as a separate document that could be dynamic and could be changed every year as the job evolves. That would be my recommendations. Instead of getting to the weeds of that kind of stuff, keep this very broad.

Thank you. And your name, sir? I'm sorry.

David Kratz. Thank you, Mr. Kratz.

Anyone?

Oh, Mr. Kratz. As far as like with the micromanaging, it's not a good thing because every manager has their own style. Terry was so much different than Sue. Where we get communication, some of us might get a little more of that. I'm full-time employed. I can't get over here like I used to. Dee's full-time. Meredith's full-time. We're all full-time. So...

Yes, I'm not.

Well, you are. You're part... Well, you're all over the place. You're right.

You're right. You're probably more flexible.

Yeah. But we all get our... We got to get our information when we get there. With Terry, anytime there was a council person in the office, he made it a time to get you and say, hey, we want to talk to you about something. You know, we'd say something like that. So... We can't micromanage a manager.

And that's kind of what I'm saying. Like the other day, I showed up for my every two week appointment with the city manager. And I was told I'm the only one still doing that. And I said, that's okay. It's on my calendar and I intend to show up. Y'all need to get back on it.

I'm doing that.

And if I learn information, well, you must have come after she told me that, because she told me that Wednesday of last week, that nobody had been here since then, since Latricia or Mike had been there.

Well, that's not true.

And I, for your regular, every two-week appointment.

I was usually here every week, and I would talk with Sue every week, because I came up here every Friday to sign checks. That was my appointment. Well, she made that my standing appointment, so I'm just saying.

Okay. But anyway, let's not get too... Well, I'm just saying that when I come... I learn things. And you can't fault me for learning things. That's what I'm here for.

And your questions are going to be different than my questions.

Exactly.

So the conversation is not going to be the same.

And if I happen to know something you don't know and you happen to know something I don't know, we can't fault each other for knowing more than somebody else. I mean, that's unfortunately what we've come down to.

I think the, I understand exactly what you're saying. I think the disconnect that we were talking about was not a matter of whether 1 council member knows more than the other council member. And then we find out something that gets put on the agenda at the moment of the meeting. I think it's more along the lines of if there's communications that should be brought to a council. Brought from 1 council member to the city manager, then it's up to the city manager at that point in time to send us whatever the communication is and say, what do you think on this? And what do you think on this within our scope of the sunshine law? Of course, that way we can discuss it. When we come to the next meeting, instead of getting to the next meeting, and then finding out the moment of the meeting. Hey, this is what we're discussing. Does that make sense?

it does it does but i think i agree with it i think right now though we need to be focusing more on what our job description is going to be as opposed to like you said the performance of it and getting into wheat into the weeds we can definitely do that but we really need to kind of stay a little focused and not saying we're not focused Don't yell at me. But just, yes, ma'am.

Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. To that end, I've tried to summarize into a sentence or two the sentiment that I think I've captured here. um in a very broad strokes um to diligently document city activities and provide regular updates to the city council sufficient uh for the efficient operation management and administration of the city that sounds wonderful are we okay with that okay you guys okay with that yeah

all right so let's move on machines tools equipment work aids used um which will be a computer with various programs fax telephone machine various office equipment anything else we want to add to that remove from that probably we're good i probably take the whole thing the whole thing out i think this is it's more like what you'd give a a worker instead of your city manager

I mean, it's like a front desk person.

Madam President?

Yes.

Could you tell me where we are? Yes. I got lost in the weeds.

Second page, machines, second item, well, first item on the second page. Ouch, I bit my tongue. So Ms. Debra thinks we should take it out. I mean, sometimes everybody does not know how to, I mean, we should not use a regular telephone, but everybody got cell phones now. Some people may not.

And a lot of people don't use faxes anymore. They scan an email. Yeah, that's true. I mean, I think it's outdated, actually.

Does anybody use faxes anymore? The FBI.

Except the VA.

I don't know if the VA uses faxes, but I use a fax at my house.

Oh, not me. I scan an email.

You scan? I need to learn how to do that. Okay. Well, I'm outdated.

Sorry.

All right. So what do we want to do with that section? We want to remove it, keep it.

Remove it. I'd remove that one and the next one. Yeah, it's kind of, it's a widely known thing. You get that.

So we can remove it.

I'd remove the next one too. Yeah. Yeah.

It goes hand in hand.

Everybody gives consensus on that one as well. And what we're talking about is material products and handle general office supply. Well, now that you have a secretary for them, they handle all that stuff. So they don't really have to know it. So we're going to remove.

That was the last time they ordered general office supplies.

I was going to say, I think Ms. Latricia does.

She does.

The city manager would not. All right. We're going to go to qualifications. Qualification required. So passing a pre-employment drug screen and physical are required. Specialized coursework in public administration, business management, and personal law. working knowledge of computers and electronic data processing, working knowledge of office practices and procedures, Skills and operation of personnel, personal computer, including word processing and spreadsheet software, specifically Windows, Microsoft Word and Excel would be advisable. Knowledge of database programs. This person must be able to work effectively with the city council receiving minimal to no supervision. However, at the same time, it will be necessary to be able to take instruction from the city council to implement policies and procedures adopted by the council. This person must be able to communicate effectively, both orally and in writing, and have the ability to present a positive and professional image of the city of Williston. Must have thorough knowledge and hands-on experience with personal law and procedures. That was a mouthful. Yes.

Personnel. The first thing I would do, and I'm fine with pretty much what that reads, but I would put the education and experience before the qualification requirements. That's just me. Why? What's your thought process? Because if they're not educated or experienced, the qualifications are a little bit mute. I mean, they need to stop reading when they get to education and experience. For example, I'm looking at every one of these over here. Every one of them have the education first.

Really?

Yeah, every single one of them. The four that I printed today. They started with a bachelor's degree or a minimum of eight years progressive responsibility. This one does too. This one starts out with maximum qualifications with education and experience. This one does as well.

I think I'd want to know if they're qualified for the position. And then I can look at their education and experience. Yes, sir. Mr. Benton.

Yes, ma'am. The way it seems that... Vice President Jones is reading that. It seems like that that would be a deterrent on a job description. So if somebody doesn't have a bachelor's degree, they stop reading right there and they just move to the next.

Well, I'm not saying that's what we would decide to put there, but that's what this one has. No, just saying that that's what this one has.

He's talking about what you're saying.

Right. The way that you're wanting to list it, the way that they have it listed on the League of City sites is probably more of a deterrent. Of course. to keep people without that experience from continuing to read and continuing to pursue that.

Our current one has that. No, we have qualifications and then we have the education experience.

Oh, I know, but when you get to the education, it still talks about a bachelor's degree or a degree from a credit.

No, he's saying putting it first as opposed to the qualifications.

It's probably more a determinant, yes.

Okay.

Mr. Mayor? Thank you. Madam president counselor Jones. You said the 4 I have all had that. What are we talking about? What 4 do you have?

I said earlier that I had printed off 4 different job descriptions.

So also, yes, you're talking about job descriptions, not candidates.

Well, they're actually, no, they're not candidates. They're postings from the Florida League of Cities.

I understand what you said before, but what you said this time, I'm just asking for clarification. Were you talking about four candidates? You were not. Thank you.

We don't have any candidates that I'm aware of. All right. Anyone else? Mr. Fuller?

We list specifically, excuse me, Albert Fuller, City of Williston again. We list specifically things like Microsoft Word. Would we not want to either exclude that or put latest versions? Because to list as Microsoft Word is kind of outdated.

Well, that's why we're kind of talking about it so we could change whatever we need to change.

I just wanted to enter that into the discussion. Thank you. When we get more specific about what we're looking at, we're looking at a job description that's kind of old.

That's why we have you here.

We could list it as Microsoft Suite that covers all of those programs.

Microsoft Suite? Or just leave it at Microsoft.

We could just cover it with Microsoft Office products.

Microsoft Office products.

Because it is a wide arrangement and not all of them are needed. You could just use these as your staples or if you prefer to use other ones such as OneNote and so on and so forth, you could also find ways to utilize those to keep yourself more organized.

And I also agree with putting the education and experience first because there are a lot of people coming out of college or have been to college and have had experience working in other environments but do they have computer experience can they do it so listing the education first is hey this is the basic requirement and then what can you do with it would be the qualification requirements

would like to elaborate on that as well I do agree with you miss Jones when you're looking at job descriptions that's usually one of the first things that you see to see if you do qualify or if to see there is certain verbiage that may be put in there as we prefer that you have a bachelor's degree and so on and so forth but what we're looking for is specifically these which would be the next paragraph so if we could swap that it would make the flow go exactly And then it gives us a little bit more leeway with education and or experience because there is a big difference between, you know, I have a college degree in this, but I haven't worked in there yet versus I've been working in the field for 20 years and I just haven't had a chance to get that degree yet. So, agreed. Thank you.

Ms. Ross?

Okay, flip it. Let's move on. Thank you.

All right, flip it, even though we weren't at it yet. All right, so let's flip it. What are we going to, are we, well, let's finish talking about the qualifications before we flip anything.

And let me say, too, that the way they write it on most of these, again, I'm looking at the four that I pulled off of the job description, off of the bulletin board for the jobs for the Florida League.

Are we on the qualifications?

It actually says minimum qualifications and list education and experience right under it.

Okay. Okay.

And then it gets down into the experience a little farther down, all in one thing. But the heading, the large heading, is minimum qualifications. And I say that some of the others do the same thing. And this one says, required qualifications include, and it starts with education first and then gets into the experience. They all say that. I mean, they pretty much do, so. This one does the same thing. It says required qualifications include, and it starts with education. And again, I just did this myself.

But this doesn't have anything. All it's talking really about is education experience, and then it has nothing else.

Right. They're all a little bit different. I think ours is better than any of these. I think ours is definitely better than any of these, but I would flip it because they all flip. They all put it first. I think it makes it more modern, as was stated earlier.

So before we flip it, once again, can we go back to the qualification requirements? Or is that what you're saying you want in the same location? You want to still say qualification requirements and then underneath the education experience?

I would love it to say minimum qualifications and then list the education and experience part first and then the qualification part under it. Okay. Just flip the verbiage.

You got that, Ms. Latricia? Here, pass this to her.

Pass that to her. I just think the flow is much better. And it's like all those people that we had that applied who worked at McDonald's. They're going to know immediately when they look at the education and experience they don't qualify and they'll stop. I mean, I can't tell you. The 54 we got, this last time we did not get 54. The time before that, we got 54. I have an Excel spreadsheet at home that still has them all on it. Maybe we'll call some of them up. But I think that it would be much better to flip it for that reason.

We would have a good flow.

Yeah. Hopefully we'll get that many.

to sell ourselves so are we good on the paragraph qualification paragraph paragraph before we go to education and flipping that's the third time i've asked mr mayor city attorney for those of us that are still in the weeds would you clarify what they finally decided

I believe what I'm understanding is there is a request that we have minimum qualification requirements, that that be our large heading, that then there be a paragraph regarding the education and experience required, and then all of the other Anything else that we want, which is currently listed under qualification requirements, would then be listed subsequently. We have not had a discussion on what the content of either of those would look like. Have I summarized? Does everyone agree with that summary? Okay, thank you.

All right, now can we discuss? So that paragraph that I read, Are we going to, there is a change that we said we were going to make, which was Windows.

Microsoft Office products.

Microsoft products, which includes Windows. You got that? Microsoft Office. Mr. Gerald.

Certainly. I just want to point out Windows is an operating system. The Office products is what runs on it. Okay. It's a software package. So in our case, typically, we're using Office 365. I was going to say, do we have Windows? Which allows us not only to use native programs that have been downloaded and installed, but also out in the cloud. So we don't have Windows anymore. We have 365. No, we have Windows. We still have Windows. It's just the foundational... piece, it's the operating system. Okay.

The way you're saying is that Windows went away and I'm like, so we don't have Windows. Windows is the foundation.

We're building a house, right? Yeah, Windows is always going to be there. And the office products are all the windows and the roof.

Okay.

Will we each have to have a license for that program on there?

They're already built. We have a enterprise license. Okay, cool.

I don't have that yet. I've been trying to utilize the program, and I don't have that. I am aware. Okay, I just wanted to make sure, because I'm like, wait. She will come soon. We'll have a further discussion about that. Okay, thank you.

All right. Anything else we want to change in the body of that paragraph? We're good? All right, so let's go to education and experience, which is right underneath it. Graduation. Should they graduate from an accredited college or university with a bachelor's degree in public administration, political science, human resources, business management, or a closely related field and have five years of related experience or Any equivalent combination of education work experience substituting for the required education of a year-for-year basis. Master's degree is preferred. International City County Manager's Association credentialing credentialed manager, ICMA-CM, which is the acronym, designation is highly desired.

it does need a period at the end of that paragraph I think there's some periods all in there that it needs definitely definitely need to update that sorry remember correctly that you at our last time we went through this had some concerns about the ICMA-CM because you had had I had really bad experience with the ICMA-CM temporary interim

person that we just, as we just hired as a, to hold the spot until we got somebody. Now we have had people that were ICMA, CM credentialed as well. Had a couple actually. Um, and they do have a very strict code. Okay. Which is not necessarily a bad thing. Okay. It's very strict though. So you've got to be ready for it if you want it. Okay.

So my understanding, just so that I'm reading this and I'm on the same page as everybody else, is that if somebody who applies has five years of related experience plus, and I think we reworked this at our last one and we don't, because of the HR turnover, we didn't get that contract, or that job description is not exactly in front of us. But I do remember very distinctly having this conversation about reworking this to say that there would be equivalent number of years of experience which would account for the possible necessary master's degree required.

That's what I was hoping for, too. That way it opens up the opportunity for people who may just have many years in the field of experience to bring that. And with the opportunity that if they get the position, they can still go for getting their master's in MBA or whatever is actually required to do better at the position.

So I'm going to go to, for the audience, city manager's job description. On the back page is preferred qualifications, which is what we talked about. That is a little bit, it's essentially the same, but it's a little bit, looks a little cleaner. Which is from 2018. And it says... Preferred qualification, graduate from an accredited four-year college or university with a bachelor's degree in public administration, business administration, or a closely related field. Second bullet, a minimum of five years of progressive responsible executive or senior management experience in local government, preferably with a municipality in the state of Florida. Third bullet, an equivalent combination of education, training, and experience that demonstrates the knowledge, skills, and abilities necessary to successfully perform the duties of the position that may be considered. I would suggest that we take that excerpt and put it into that position in this position description.

Madam President, could you help me find where you were?

Yes, sir.

You said back page. I went to the back page.

Of the manager, the city manager job description, the one-pager.

Oh, switch pages.

Yes, sir. I said we're going to go to that one. Because it pretty much says the same thing, it's just cleaner.

Thank you. I understand that.

I agree. Any questions?

Agreed.

Okay. All right. Any questions from the public? Mr. Fuller?

This is not something I'd like to add, just a clarification. Exactly, are we saying that a person can substitute experience for a degree? That is my understanding.

They can substitute. That's actually not what it says.

No.

It does not say that.

They can substitute.

It does not say that?

It does not say that.

The way that it's written is that it says, in place of a degree, if you have the job experience, then you would be able to be considered, am I correct?

Yes, that's what I've read.

I think it's asking for all three of these things. All three. The way that I read was that it was one or the other.

If you go back to the old one, it doesn't, because it has a great big or.

I think we should add the or.

Or any equivalent combination of education, work experience, substituting for required education. The other one says that. This one does not. It's got the bullets that say graduation from an accredited four-year college or university.

but the way that it words, the wording in the last paragraph makes it appear, and that's why I think we're trying to figure out if it's gonna say and, or, or, or, and, because we would need that clarification such as in the other document where it specifically says it in word. I believe the cleaner format from the secondary form is great at explaining the different options, but I think we need to include the verbiage that says and, or, so people can see either yes, you have the degrees and the experience,

you just have the degrees or you have the experience that's the same without the certification of the that's what we left out right here because it's a bullet it wants I mean it obviously we do want somebody with a minimum of five years of progressive responsibility right as an executive or senior we do want that that's a separate thing but so if we want that only If you'll take that only without a college degree, we need to put that or in there.

I agree, because I think it opens the scope. It is what she's saying. Only the people who have degrees put in, that may just be a handful, but there may be qualified candidates out there who had many years of experience in all the different things that we're hoping to see, but they just don't have the degree. And we wouldn't want to deter them from feeling comfortable to submit their application. So I think having the verbiage to say and or just to kind of clarify, we're open to all that fit within this whole category would be good. Is that what you're asking Mr. Fuller?

That was kind of what I was asking, but I would not want someone that would not have a collegial relationship with another city manager of the caliber that we're looking for. So I would definitely ask for at least a BS degree.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, if they're committed, I think they've got a BS degree. Most of them have master's and they're ICMA certified. Right. If the people that you want, the caliber of person that we say we're looking for.

Right.

That we're going to have to pay for, obviously.

Would we accept someone who is already in the process of getting those, or would it have to be they have already completed and have the certificate available?

Certificate of what?

For like masters, say, I know somebody who would love to submit their application, but they haven't achieved their BS or a BA.

Most of these I think will be BAs.

So basically what I'm asking is, are we looking for minimum required? You have to have the certification or preferred that you have this certification, but these are the overall qualities we're looking for.

I think when it comes to the degree, They need to have a minimum of a bachelor's. We prefer someone with a master's. That's where the preferred comes in. You don't want to prefer somebody have a bachelor's and you take something else.

So we're basically saying we're only going to look at applicants with bachelor's or more, nothing else. I'm just trying to see the overall scope of who all we're willing to look at so that way the potential applicants would be aware whether they qualify or not.

I think if we get somebody who has a very impressive resume and doesn't have a degree, we owe it to look at that person and go a little deeper into it. You think about some of the people who are running major corporations. Dave Thomas built Wendy's, didn't even graduate high school.

Agreed.

There are people out there that have built successful businesses. It didn't have degrees.

Correct. They have built the businesses. They didn't come into the businesses.

I didn't go to college, but I got 40 years of management experience. But they built the businesses.

and that's where he's saying is the experience on resume would show everything that they put in versus we don't want to even accept the resume if the certification is not attached well that's why you just said or so if you're going to say we're looking for people who have xyz or any that's why it says equivalent exactly and that's what i was hoping for the clarification that's exactly what i was hoping to see good read

All right, if we're going to do that, if we're going to do that, I would like to do the grads still on the same city manager job description, preferred qualifications at the bottom. Kind of combine the first two and then put the, because I really want them to have a degree and or minimum of, and minimum of five years or the or comes right there. an equivalent combination of education training or experience yes that's where the or comes we do want them to have the minimum five years progressive responsibility of education or senior management and i'm with mike i can think of some wonderful city managers that we've had that may not have had a four-year degree they certainly didn't have a master's um but i've i've had some who have had a master's who've been horrible.

Exactly. Exactly the point.

Horrible. I'm looking for a leadership. Somebody who's got, who's a leader.

Strong leader.

It can keep us all in line.

A hundred percent. Agreed.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I, and I think, um, It may be that the minimum five-year progressive needs to come all the way to the bottom, and it may need to say graduation or equivalent with a minimum of five years of progressive.

I think that flows very well. What do you think?

Okay, so I'm just trying to keep up. We're doing a lot. We are. The way I hear it is there's two different options that are being presented. Someone correct me if they think that there's an additional option. Option one. We have exactly how it's written, preferred qualifications, okay, with an and at the end of the first bullet point and an or at the end of the second bullet point. Okay, that's option one. The way that that would read is We want a bachelor's degree and a minimum of five years, or if you do not have both of those things, then we will accept an equivalent combination of education, training, and experience. And that equivalent combination will substitute for both of the previous categories. So that's option one. Oh. And then option two would be that we have graduation from an accredited four year, and we leave that the way that it is. And then we put, or at the end of that sentence, we move bullet point three up to bullet point two. And then we say, and a minimum of five years. So number two.

So either one would have to have a minimum of five years. Yes.

no option one you would not need no i mean if you move it up to or move through bullet three so for option so for option two you can get an equivalent that will substitute for a degree but then you will have a separate requirement for five years and that will not be eligible for an equivalent Okay, so those are the two different options that I'm hearing.

That will not be eligible. Say that again. You can't just have five years of progressive service without one or two of the others. Right. Okay. Gotcha. I agree.

So do those two options make sense?

I like number two. When you say one or two of the others, could we clarify so the residents also understand as well?

I thought that was clear. But go ahead. Just because we kind of went in circles.

Number your bullet points. She's going to tell you which order they're coming in.

Okay. Each of the bullet points, how they appear right now, if you number them one, two, and three. Option one that's being discussed is the order of those stays exactly the same. at the end of bullet point one we add the word and at the end of bullet point two we add the word or the effect of that change is that we prefer that you have a bachelor's degree so four year degree and five years of experience but we will accept an equivalent combination of education training and experience instead of both of those two options so that's that's the first option. Second option is keep bullet point one where it is. Move bullet point three to where bullet point two is. So just flop those two. At the end of bullet point one, you would have the word and and then it would lead into the current number three. So an equivalent combination. Sorry, you would have the word or right, right. Um, And it would lead into an equivalent combination of education, training, and experience. And then the current bullet point two would read last. And before that, there would be an or. So the effect of that option is you have to have... That's where the and goes. Sorry, and.

The or goes after number one, and the and goes before number two.

And the effect of that second option, which is really the important part, is that option would read, we want you to have graduated from a four-year university, but we will accept... an equivalent combination of education, training, and experience instead of a degree. And separate, so you choose one of those two. And in addition to that, you have to have a minimum of five years of progressively responsible executive or senior management experience. Okay, so those are the two different options that are on the table. Don't ask me to say it again, please.

No, no, no. I think that's great. I choose number two.

So now we're just trying to figure out which one we want to go with. Right, which one do you want to go with?

I believe I also like the second option as well. I think it just opens it up a little bit more so that way, either way, we're still going to deliberate through the candidates, but at least it gives us a bigger scope of people that may be able to qualify.

Is that a number one or a number two?

Number two. Thank you. What a biggie, Frank. Number two, Ms. Meredith, okay, consensus is the second one. I said consensus is the second one. I don't. Does that mean you too? I want the second one. Thank you. You could have been against it and still had a quarter. No. Okay. That's good. Oh, that was the hard part.

All right, I got it.

Okay. Thank you, thank you, thank you. All right, so back to the other document. All right, so back to Williston City Manager, the three-pager, which is six. Pages front back. All right. Necessary knowledge and skills. We're on the third page, second page, but third page. Necessary knowledge, skills and abilities must be able to function in the modern public and administrative area of. A risk management, B human and financial management, C utilities including water, waste water, gas, electric, D solid waste collection, transfer and disposal, E law enforcement, F fire and rescue services, G capital improvement projects, H community planning development and redevelopment, I economic development, J airport administration, K strategic planning, L state statute, city charter and ordinance and resolutions. and M, implement ICMA-CM local government management practices.

madam president if i can the next what is starts with one staff effectiveness and goes through the next several pages is it the imc ending on the very last page with the 18 personal development is the previously existing version of the icma um what they call core competencies they now have 14 instead of 18 they've consolidated a couple of them so this is a little bit outdated I would positive is probably not necessary to list them out like that it is publicly available information if you do want that requirement I think it might be easier to just refer to just reference them yeah and take all the 18 out

Sounds great.

And we refer to the updated 14.

Right. Okay. Sounds reasonable. Sounds great. Ms. Meredith, you agree? Or do you want them all in? Do you want them all spelled out?

Starting with number one, no. I feel like that's more... Mr. Grant, thank you. To his point, more of directives that we would give for our future city interim or permanent city manager. Have we addressed the necessary knowledge, skills, and abilities? I feel like we moved right on to item number one, and I...

No, we didn't. She was just explaining that item number one to 18 is part of the IMC.

Okay. As long as we circle back to the necessary knowledge list, I'm very comfortable with removing one through 18 from this contract and making it part of our directives rather than our...

I knew I liked you.

Uh-oh. Yes. Mr. Cox.

Let's go to bed. Ms. Jones. you're okay with oh yeah absolutely i think we're all i think just referencing them as m is great yes okay so we would keep the reference to m and we would just refer to the core competencies yeah the core competencies right i didn't mean to skip over oh no no i just don't want to overwhelm anyone unnecessarily i was gonna stop it as because i'm like this looks like it's part of okay so let's go back to a through l

I think HR and financial management are two totally different things and shouldn't be listed together. And I think we need to put grant management on here since it's in the charter.

But isn't she over HR?

She is, but I don't think it needs, financial management hasn't got anything to do with human resources.

I would leave it in there, but make it two separate things.

Oh, I see what you're saying.

You know what I'm saying? All the other things that are combined are the same. as each other, like planning development and redevelopment are the same. And on the utilities, we might need to include fiber.

Telecommunications is what I would.

I would add the fiber in there as well, just so they know we have it.

We have a question from the back.

Oh. We can't hear you. Can you use your mic on?

It's not on. There we go. Thank you. Please use your microphone.

I always start waving my mic at you.

That's why they don't relate to us.

I would break it up as human resource management and financial management is two separate lines.

I agree. Thank you.

But do it as human resource management because it's figuring out how many people need to do a task. Right? Each department. How many guys do I need for this? How many guys I need for that? Resource management.

Exactly. I'm good with that. Me too. Everybody else good with that? Yep. All right. Ms. Ballou, you got that? Got it. Anything else on the knowledge? That's it. Yes, ma'am. On the necessary knowledge and skills. She's like, I'm gonna sit up at the front.

I think that something that is missing from this is communication skills. I think that something that I've seen from afar inside the city is lack of communication from one person to the next. And I think that it's caused a lot of issues that one department is not communicating with the other. And so I think that if we have a city manager, they should have excellent communication skills. And I think it should be listed. That's my opinion.

I like it. Thank you.

i would just comment that's one thing miss miss bodette had she had great communication skills she communicated with us constantly she did weekly reports that were wonderful they just didn't do much else i just remember that it was some people stated that they did receive it and some people said that they didn't quite receive this same information just based off of what we received as a resident during that time frame that was my understanding the residents received anything

the residents as watching the council seeing some council members saying oh yeah we were you know made up to made up to date of the meeting she was attending and then other city council members such as mr cox at one point in time was saying well we're asking you to give us updates on other things not just attending meetings oh yeah so that kind of communication i think that might be what miss rachel might be referring to his point was she attended meetings all the time instead of taking care of the city right that was that as well yeah to clarify did we want to add communication as one of the i think that's a huge thing in my personal opinion i got it could um could i also add organizational skills it goes in my opinion it goes hand in hand with communication so you're not just communicating you're communicating the same information across the board showing that both are equally as important

The only other thing I would ask the council is just to clarify if we want to keep the current E and F given the charter differentiations. I'm not sure that it's certainly up to you all. The current what? Bullet point E and F, law enforcement and fire and rescue service. Those don't currently fall under the city manager. Certainly a general understanding, I agree, would be probably preferable, but I'm not sure if you want to keep those or not keep those. So that's the only thing I had a question for.

I think the budgeting portion of those two departments can come under finance. And it would be just fine. I do want the candidate to know that we do have a police department and we have a fire department because a lot of cities don't.

We could put in there, like you said, an understanding of to kind of show this is something that you need. You're going to want to be familiar with and you're going to work hand in hand with. But it's not something that falls under your scope of duties.

Other than the budget itself.

Other than the budget.

Which is under funding. I can put it under the financial management, including related to fire and rescue services and law enforcement.

Perfect. And then remove it from the app.

And then remove it from a separate bullet point.

Perfect.

Guess what? The next one is organizational integrity.

No, I think that's actually part of the I. Oh, you think it is?

I think it's part of number 17.

And that's what I was going to say, that IMC practices covers more than likely communication and organization and all those things.

And it does, whether interpersonal or... Yeah, and like I said, they have a very strict code. If you read this, you'll see exactly what it is.

If the council would like, just for clarification, I can read to you the 14 that are current so that you know what categories are covered. Sure. I will just read you the categories. Yeah, the titles. The information inside of them is irrelevant. Not irrelevant, but certainly beyond the scope. So personal and professional integrity, community engagement, equity and inclusion, staff effectiveness, personal resiliency and development, strategic leadership, strategic planning, policy facilitation and implementation, community and resident service, service delivery, technological literacy, financial management and budgeting, human resources management and workforce engagement, and communication and information sharing.

kind of covers it all so yep but if we're referring to we're putting a line in here for him saying we're referring to this we could say such as some of these items title only we could if you want way they can kind of see what the scope of that is in just a one-liner versus having 14 different stated ones.

We could hand them a copy of the code because it is a very strict code that they go by. Of course.

Up to you all.

I personally think handing them either handing them a copy of a code or having it as an addendum to the job description would be useful because I think we're pretty much all in agreement that these are these are criteria that we would not want somebody to lack exactly whether they're part of the IMC whatever or not IMC or not yeah right okay anything from the public

All right, we're going to go to physical demands, the very, very last page of Williston City Manager job description. Physical demands. The physical demands described here are representative of those that must be met by an employee to successfully perform the essential functions of the job. Reasonable accommodations may be made to enable individuals with disabilities to perform the essential functions. While performing the duties of this job, the employee is frequently required to sit and talk or hear. The employee is occasionally required to walk, use hands to fingers, handle or feel objects, tools or controls, and reach with hands and arms.

Again, I'm not real sure this isn't out of a regular job description and doesn't necessarily apply to the city manager. I mean, you do want them to be able to see and hear and feel and touch, but I will.

I guess my only concern about that is that I do think we need somebody who can physically visit sites, development sites, Block 12, who can attend meetings, who has that capacity. So I don't know that... These words necessarily need to be the exact words, but I do think we need somebody who has the ability to drive themselves to a meeting, to go out to Block 12 and check on things, and to be able to get here during a hurricane.

Definitely believe it could be rewritten and be better.

So not removed, just rewritten.

Now this is a little...

yeah yeah yeah it's a little bit a little bit more tailored to what the city manager would actually be doing here in general like a worker or a staff member who's in the field who's got to touch and feel and use a tool I do like that it also offers the information such as To be made to enable the individuals with disabilities to perform the essential function. So that definitely needs to be in there.

Agreed.

Um, we just need to, I believe. Update the other information to be a little bit more tailored to the responsibilities of the manager.

Mr bear.

Thank you matter president. I just want to point out to the council that is concerned about people with disabilities, not being able to do certain things. The Disabilities Act particularly covers those people and you cannot exclude them from a job description because of a disability. it says reasonable accommodation clearly you cannot have a blind mute quadriplegic able to do this but trying to define what disabilities are acceptable and what are not is something that the disabilities act does for you and you do not need to do that

That's why the attorney is going to help us out with that. Right. Essentially what it will look like is these are the requirements, right? You'll need to be able to sit, stand, talk, listen, et cetera, all of those things. And then the way that the ADA works is we have certain physical requirements. And then if someone applies and they ask for reasonable accommodation and we're able to provide that accommodation for one of those requirements, then we do so. So we will have all that language.

Perfect.

Yes, Mr. On the same note, I think that the last sentence is just two in the weeds.

Yeah, that's why we just took everything and gave it to the attorney. She'll figure it out for us. The correct wording. I will do my best. We kind of gave her what we want, but the wording portion of it. So that it stays in compliance with laws. anything from the public nope okay so we're gonna go to work environment The position requires a highly motivated person with vision to continue to offer new programs and initiate innovative thinking. This position requires a person with a good general knowledge of municipal government and finance administration. This position also requires a hands-on approach in all areas of operation, including dealing with elected officials. This position requires someone who is a good manager of time as well as people and resources. The job can require a significant amount of overtime to accomplish all tasks and to manage the... advisory boards and committees this incumbent this incumbent is also on the board of directors for both the florida gas utilities as well as florida municipal power association he or she also chairs or is a member of various local boards as appropriate i think we should put a successful candidate will also hold a seat on

Instead of an incumbent.

I like that as well.

Are they automatically given a seat? Yeah. Okay. Yes, Mr. Gerald.

I just think a significant amount of overtime. You should strike overtime and make it just time. A significant amount of time.

Because they're not getting overtime.

Right.

Right.

Yeah, we really don't need to call it that. I'm agreeing.

Just call it time.

I'm agreeing.

Because you don't want it to be seen as a negative thing either and deter them. Like a significant amount of overtime, we're talking the extra 20, 30, 40 hours. Whatever it takes. It all depends on perception.

Is there the perception you want to give? Mr. Fuller? Oh, okay.

And I just wanted to say, I actually really like that section, because I think that's something that chief roles and literature had done during their time. And I would like to see that kind of go with it's not just an office job. It's also a job where you're out in the public and you are the face and you have to be motivated and inspired and be happy to come to do this position, especially in our current position that we're in now, where it could be seen as. you know one thing are we just trying to get somebody and it could be seen as we're taking this opportunity to get the right person that may have these great skills on top of great administrative skills so I love this anything else anyone else so we're good with that paragraph that ending paragraph

Does anyone else have does anyone else have anything else they would like to see in this job description?

Just flagging that we need to circle back to the pay.

Oh, yeah. I've forgotten. Okay. Yes, sir. That's the most important thing.

Well, Dallas, Leicester City, Wilson. I wasn't going to talk about pay, but I did see the omission of the union. i didn't i wanted to complete the document just as you guys had i hadn't seen it before so i didn't speak up when we got to the necessary knowledge skills and abilities uh to my knowledge the city manager and human resources director negotiate uh the contract every year and omitting the union uh seems like a a big misstep to let someone who's going to take the job know that they're going to be involved in union negotiations contract disagreements disciplinary

everything that goes along with it so that's my two cents as the uh president of the union question i wonder if it's under the human resource management section uh the human resources manual refers to the contract but the contract is its own document right you but i'm talking about you're talking about them having knowledge of it and dealing with it right

That's the duties that you appoint the city manager, which would be negotiations.

So you're wanting to make sure that the candidates are understanding that they're going to work with the union, correct?

This city has a union, and they will be working with that union.

Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you. I think if that is a big rule, you should add it.

I don't think it's worth adding.

And the necessary knowledge, skills, and abilities.

I know it's one of the questions that we have had in the past, is have you ever worked with unions before? I don't know that that'll be one of our questions this time because we haven't discussed questions. But in the past, that is one of the questions we have asked a candidate. is have you, number one, we ask them, are you familiar with the Sunshine Law? That's why we prefer a Florida candidate because they know what Sunshine is. You'd be surprised getting somebody from another state. They don't have a clue what Sunshine Law is. And that's very important is that they do that because Florida's governed by it. But also we've asked them if they've ever worked with unions, how much budgeting experience, you know, all that kind of stuff.

I think if we're going to ask the question, it would be a good idea to reference it as well in the job description to kind of coincide with each other.

So we could add a point that says collective bargaining units and or unions. That would be a better word. Yeah.

Anything else?

So we talk about the hours that we expect a person to do it why don't we just put it's a salary if you're a salary you're you're available all the time.

That's what I said earlier I just state that it's an exempt position.

well I don't even know what exempt position is I do but now but I'm just saying the person may not know what exempt is so you just say everybody knows salary means you work all hours a city manager candidate will know what exempt means if not we don't want them they're gonna know well heck I'm sitting here and I don't know what it means if they don't know what it is we don't want them so we can just swap out exempt for salary that way it's a clear clear cut description huh

No one can work the hours. Latricia works. I think I have a general understanding of what you all want to come back to.

All right. So the last item on the, if we're not adding anything or deleting anything else, is going to be our pay, starting pay for this position.

If I may. So at our last, when we did this last in 2024, we had an extensive conversation about this. And I'm not going to talk about numbers, but I think what we decided to do was put a cap on it versus a bottom on it so kind of flipping the current one the Williston the stapled one Williston city manager job description has a base and then the one that was just handed out has a cap and that was the shift that we made after much discussion the last time to say what are we what is the most that we are willing to pay assuming the person has and we had a lot of debate about it so I'm not saying there isn't room for debate but just That was the conversation that was had last time.

It's a more modern approach as well.

And that would be an up to certain dollar amount as starting pay, correct? Or up to a certain amount is all we're willing to offer during their tenure? Just for starting. Starting pay. Just for clarification. Okay.

most job descriptions usually do that instead of saying oh it's starting at this or between this and that because it really depends on the candidates and their qualifications and how much we're able to do for our budget i think if i remember correctly our our final agreement was that we did not want to get people applying who are expecting a number that we couldn't even touch because it's kind of a waste of their time and our time um so we were trying to kind of narrow

that and we didn't put a bottom on it if i remember correctly for some i can't remember the reasoning but we didn't put a bottom on it i think it ran just like that yeah mr binton yes ma'am i think i think that came the origins of that come from the hr manual and our hr manual says when you're when you're going through the hiring process you have a base and then not to exceed 15 you know from your base based on experience. Obviously, with you guys negotiating with this person, I think that would take priority over some of that, and that was meant for more of a hiring a team member or interim, but I think that was the origins of that.

That's more for a person who's already an employee who's moving to a new position.

No, ma'am. That's for hiring somebody new entirely. It's base plus 15% less. Max, you can go starting brand new. I promise you.

It doesn't enclave a city manager at all. Right. No, no, no.

I'm agreeing with you on that.

So I'm just not applicable at all.

No, it's just that I think that's the origins of the base.

Got it.

Thank you. So do we feel comfortable with keeping it at just a cap, or is there interest at having a base and a cap?

You don't need a base. I don't think you do.

I would still like to see what other municipalities equivalent.

I have four examples down here.

Go ahead. Equivalent to the way that Willis is with the gas, with the electric, sewer, water, fiber. We offer a lot.

Yeah, you won't find them.

You'll find them, but they'll be bigger cities.

right so I think when we look at salaries we need to look at it on a pretty good side to see see what we get that's just we talked about how many city manager we've gone through Now, I realize Mr. Brevard, he retired. So you really can't count him in that five-year, two-year deal. But, you know, with the other ones. So I just think that we need to look and do we need to go a little higher? I don't. the salary to me would be the last part to negotiate with the person. Because if we were to put 60 to 95,000 and we offer them 70, they're going to be like, well, wait a minute. You got in here that, you know, you could pay me all the way up to 95 or whichever. So,

So, sorry, am I hearing that you would like to not have a salary range posted on the job description? Am I misunderstanding that?

Just the way that things are getting, and I've seen the change over the last several years in management, is you're going to offer me here, but you're saying that you could pay me as much as up here. So they're going to want... To go to that higher dollar mark.

But that's your base salary.

The high part?

No, your beginnings part is your base salary, what you are willing to start at.

Right, but if we put on the high side, I'm going to be like, okay, you offer me $70,000 to be manager. And I come back to you and go, well, wait a minute. It says here that you could go up to 90. So I went 90.

And then we'll say, what makes you... You brought me here. So therefore, that's when you have those discussions. It's going to be a discussion regardless, but there has to be some sort of idea of what I'm coming in to work for you for.

I've been there and I've done it.

So I think having a number, whether it's a high number, a low number, whatever it is, that person knows that, well, I'll be getting at least this or more.

Right. And I've did all that. This ain't nothing new to me.

I know, but I'm just saying. I mean, it's just trying to figure out where we go with the numbers.

Right and I definitely do see your point Mr. Cox. I think my big question as far as starting off is are we talking number for our permanent full-time city interim or city manager or are we still looking at potentially getting an interim for now while also keeping in mind that we are going to post for a full-time post the budget review? So those numbers may be different based on what position we're offering. So if we're offering both, we're trying to go ahead and put a quick posting out saying we're going to go with what is currently already offered and see if we can get an interim city manager to be negotiable with that pay with the job description. And they would have the opportunity come time that we're posting the full term at, let's say, December. They would have the opportunity to say, I would like to stay on. Let me apply for that and go against the other candidates who are applying for the full time. And whatever that number may be, because we've already had a chance to review the budget and we can put an accurate number. For at that time on there, so are we looking at a number for just the full time past November? Are we looking at a number for right now? So we can, um, assist miss Latricia and allow her to return to her clerk duties. And then after November, when we review the budget and we can have a more accurate dollar amount of what we can offer a qualified candidate for full-time, then do that at that time.

I'm looking for a dollar amount that I can put in this job description and this posting that we can post now for a full-time city manager. And then that's going to be three or four months, no matter what we do about it. And then we consider what are we going to do about the interim because she would like relief.

Exactly so right now we're just coming up with what I am something we could post and get it out there.

So that's the only thing is what the mayor asked us to do.

How can we come up with an accurate number right now without going past the budget? That's why I assumed that we would be looking at the interim. The immediate issue now with also. Everything that we've already done will come into play in November, except the budget review. That's the only information we won't have available to us. We can say, as of right now, for the interims, whoever wants to apply for that position, we can give you this. And then after November, we review the budget, see what we can offer as the full term, and go there. So none of the other information changes. The only information that would change between the two job postings is interim, full term, what we can offer either or. Like, say, we keep the budget the same person, then we go back to level.

Right. I agree.

I just don't want to say we'll, we'll get to you.

We'll get to you and then the issue turns into a long term issue tonight. It's on the agenda. We have to get through this 1st, but we need to at least have a number because, like you say, we do need to post.

Right.

And if it's going to, well, we have to post based on what we know right now, based on our budget.

Agreed.