Master Plan Citizen Oversight Group - 2026 - Regular Meeting

talking the other and the city judge is there although you know can't miss a chance to shake a few hands and kiss some cities vision to staybody

started. Yeah. I don't know. That's one of the reasons he moved here. So what kind of city? Okay. I'm done. Sorry.

Are you a banger? Yes, sir. I wish I had April. Oh, I'm sorry. I think you were ready. Just call me to order them. So, it's okay. So, sorry. I think I number seven.

Number seven. Thank you all for coming in on this wonderful hot evening. We're making great progress. Our goal today is go through the second discussion on planning element and review of other content review number two. And at this time I'd like to introduce the mayor but he's not here yet. So at this point uh Melanie would you take role? Absolutely. Uh, Chair Routen here. Vice Chair Loyal here. Member Avery here. Here. Member Baker here. Member Batty. Member Boomer Schlaggel

here. Member Borin. Member Clark here. Member Clayton on Zoom. Um, member Coleman here. Member Deppler here. Member Hellfrey here. Member Rubis here. Member Jackson here. Member Con here. Uh, council member McCutchen here. Member Mets here. Member Pick. Member Rambo here. Member Ren

here. Member Shiken and we have a quum. All right. Thank you. Would you lead us to the pledge?

Pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible. regarding minutes of last month. Do we have a motion to approve or any recommended changes? Motion. Do I hear a motion to approve as is? Vicki, do we have a second? I'll second. discussion

please.

Um yeah, I noticed on the the um under the roll call I didn't see Conway and Coleman listed and I know that um I think member Coleman had made either a motion or a second or something throughout. So need to note that Conway and Coleman members and um Deppler he have Halry and Rubis are listed as citizen members instead of PNZ because they are from PNZ. So we might want to change that too. And under the planning element goals um my notes indicated that Dr. Rambo has suggested a goal to update the HOA trustees and applicable documents of the HOA on a periodic basis. And if I'm wrong, just point that out to me, but that's what I had in my notes.

Is that the motion? And with those changes, give a second. Boy, vote. All in favor? I I going to recommend that we follow the same process that we did last month where Phil walked us through each of the activities. Uh he knows best about what to mean and how to explain them. I think a little bit letting him walk us through and then we can ask immediate questions and move on. So John, thank you.

Well, first of all, from the department of planning's perspective, we'd like to thank you all for attendance tonight. Obviously, it's a critical process and without your participation, we will not make progress. So, thank you very much. As we've tried past meetings, we always want to offer the drinks and snacks, cookies, coffee, and cold drinks in the refrigerator. So, don't be that yourself. I think everyone knows where the restrooms are, but they're out of the community room to the south end of the of the first floor. So, again, this is very informal. you like something, drink something to eat and use the facilities, please don't hesitate. He'll um secondly, when you came in tonight at your chair, so shoot us in first that look like this. And as part of our discussion last month, Miss Clark and others identified that the city does have a strategic plan is a fiveyear window to what our city council believes are critical goals that need to be frame. It's a very large document. So tonight we're just kind of giving you the eight goals that were established by city council and what was described as the sub goals. We will provide you a link to the actual plan and all the other components to it as I thought if I gave you the link about the explanation might not context you need to understand. So, you are for

almost purposes. Well, we as staff to city council and the different boards and commissions inclusive review basically put on agendas at city council in terms of impact on budget strategic goal meeting and other. So this is just another reference tool for you all as we go through this element planning to the future ones in these comments. So again we'll provide you a link to the actual document which is as I say more information in terms of funding responsible parties etc. And as part of tonight's packet, I also want to just kind of go over the items that you receive. Obviously, you know, the agenda and minutes are always a component of packets. Thanks to Miss Clark for the questions. I want to make sure that Mr. Rippo and Mr. Newberry got those so we can address the minutes and ensure that they are correct and reflection of the last meeting we had. Along with those two items, um you see three things. Uh first and foremost, you have the updated planning element say updated our discussions on the goals from our last meeting in July and then the effective policies that we hope to address tonight. Along with that item, we also again provided through the sheet for community services. We've not gotten there yet, but that creates all of the goal of objectives and policies. That is the next element. A new item that is the was something

that was described by the department last meeting and that's the proposed narrative, the introduction for the environmental element. So if you're keeping count or track, we've gone through the environmental elements, goals, objectives, and policies. And the other component associated with the that update is the narrative. And this is a draft. We received it yesterday. Again, apologize. The only explanation I can give you is that we are extremely busy trying to keep pace with some of responsibilities that we can't control that we can sometimes left to get you information as much as I would like. So this is a draft. This is the narrative. The format that the department chose to use is that the new narrative is the lefth hand column. And the existing narrative is the right hand column. So you can kind of compare as you read through what we've been using for the last part 30 years of proposing something. The intent would be is to have you review the narrative um not tonight but review the narrative, have any comments or suggestions or alterations to send them to Travis and Melanie our kind of collection point for your comment and we'll update that and then at our meeting in September agenda item go through your comments suggestions and changes and all intents and purposes if we achieve that September meeting first element of what we've done relatively

speaking you'll always have an opportunity once the are all pulled together associated narratives to see the final so to speak compilation of your efforts in the first draft of the new document. So again, so that's what's in your packet.

The objectives and policies as part of the planning element document. There are these goals. As you know at our July meeting the kind we had allotted going through those goals both the both the existing and the ends. He had something to identify and I apologize for it. Goal two was what we talked about into first did a great job kind of putting I guess the acting of the group update the goal. So there is no bolded text to indicate what you all directed department to do and that is to ensure that while this is a component so you'll see that you know consideration my apologies all the others were uh accomplished for your direction and so again the intent would be you have any comments or questions send them to Melanie and Travis um and then we'll work go through those uh changes updates for all intents and purposes have those available to you in September as well as well. I skip over those because again we spent a great deal. Yes. Now

it first isn't here. It's on the first first page at the very bottom of the action of the group. It's listed on here.

Yes. But um the goal itself didn't get updated which is the far left column. any of the updates to the goals that were endorsed by the group could be shown in the early but as you see some were recommended for no change others were recommended for certain modifications to the wording provisions and then others are rather new ones that should all be finished so again I'm not trying to skip over those but I Um, we really need to get to the objectives and policies tonight. But with that, Miss Health.

I'm sorry, Joe. On number six, the uh number six, it says it's a new one. It says it was left out a week off. We were going to discuss that this evening. Yes. Um, is this a new It's a new one. So, we're adding this in.

Correct. And that was again, I apologize. This isn't a welloiled machine. I'd like to think it is. And certainly you're suffering from the workload that department has at the moment. But yes, number six, you had the recommended action and you had a discussion, but I didn't provide the goal. So tonight, the goal is the first time you're seeing and it is to institutionalize that no more than a maximum of 10 years shall occur between updates of major planned documents. reference the master plan, the action plan for parks and recreation, town center plan, the um emergency management plan which is a group of public and then finally what we hope to be is um storm water band master plan. I just thought of another it's not yet done in this period of the next 10 years the historic preservation plan. So essentially we're doing that now. We're just putting it into putting it down in ink. Correct.

Yes. Of all the plans, the only one that has a mandate in our charter and state statute is the master plan. All the others could be on a variable schedule, but 10 years seems to be kind of the sweet spot. And this comes more from our initial consultant on the master plan, Jonathan Barnett. 10 years usually allows trends to kind of play out. 10 years also provides predictability. You update the plan too often, you have the predictability that oh my gosh, they're saying this, but two years later we're saying that. So again, we don't necessarily want to overupdate, but we don't want to let things go too long because then it obviously we might miss opportunities. We might not address challenges and certainly we won't keep the document. Thank you so much.

So again, like I say, um there's a lot of information and we're doing our best to give it to you in order a little less for farm accurate form and obviously when I miss things that doesn't help that process, but we'll keep at it. We'll always correct it. We'll tell you where we've missed something. Any other questions? Yes, ma'am. Would would it be um a good idea to add this mobility access plan that's in the notebooks? Yes.

For some of you, you all received it at the start of the process, but years ago, we did an access and mobility plan. Really, it is the comprehensive look at how we connect the city minus roadways, so to speak. It's all about trails, sidewalks, pedestrian facilities. for equestrians, hikers, bikers, etc., etc. And it's a good plan, as Clark identified, because it also shows all of our institutional uses, park properties, and the key things, and I think it was the first time it had been done, we actually went to all all of our other partners in parks and trails, the state of Missouri, St. Louis County, Great Rivers Greenway, and we got maps of their trail systems in their individual properties. So we could collectively instead of just showing the green space, we were able to identify the trails that exist in those facilities as well, which was a real positive step because now you can see my gosh, as we found out, there's over 125 miles of trails the city of Wildwood, some in state parks, some in county parks, some along the rideways that the city have done, and some in our park facilities as well. So good suggestion. Thank you. So, Miss

Do we have an economic development plan and or is Paula going to develop one that maybe we could put in that?

We have a guide because it was really just it was five steps that the consultant recommended the city informal. There wasn't necessarily a set of corresponding objectives and policies. There were recommendations but that is a goal that we and Paula Bassan are develop our city administrator is to basically create an economic development plan that's standalone and for that's the purpose is treated like every other major document we have. So I'll pencil that in as well. That way comes to fruition. We're ahead of the game if it doesn't. in 10 years the next group can say oh we need to strike that so

all right gonna be here in 10 years

no I'll be given how things are going you won't want here in 10 years I can't even update one goal by gosh so all right objectives if there are no other questions so the first objective and first group in our the existing objectives that have been part of the First one actually is from 1996 does not show any updates in 2006 or 2016 purposes. It talks about preserving the character and ecology of wildwood. A very simple objective but one that is key to everything we do. The commentary is um it identifies the unique and difficult natural and built environments of the city's rural areas. encourage the steps to be for that to be preserved and not change due to new patterns or development practices or decisions. Recommended action from the department is to retain as is. It's a good objective. It stood the test of time for the last 30 years. We'd like to keep it that way. We make a motion to retain that. Nikki S. Okay,

I'm sorry. All in favor motion. I made the motion. Oh, okay. Perfect. Thank you, sir. Second. All in favor? I I only get started there. Perfect. I'm with you now. Thank you. I thought we are we doing each one individually? Well, it was pretty quick. Okay. But I would just ask is there any discussion on what was provided to you in terms of the short presentation from the department after the motion and second is made. Yeah, we'll go ahead and go through all of them and then come back for one.

Sounds good. Uh the second uh objective again an existing this one was original in 1996 modified in 2016 by the group of volunteers and it talks about the green belt and if you're not familiar with the green belt and others on the department planning and provided you a map that showed the topography of Wwood behind Miss Halpri and Miss Baker but it shows that swath that goes from all intents of purposes Marramac River on the south of the cities the Missouri River the cities. Um again I think I talked about this real briefly an earlier meeting. Um probably the the the catalyst for the formation of the city of Wildwood was an effort first by a group of re that re residents to basically uh stop the outer belt and save that was uh approximately around 1986 or 1987. There's a group that had been formed by county executive Gene McNary and the county council was called the Pond Grover Community Area Study Group and they invited a district engineer of the St. Louis area to come to a meeting and he probably said we're thinking about doing an otter belt here and it'll follow Route 109. I did that everybody. Um so I have nothing like that to offer you to you tonight but yes. So this goal um this objective was key in incorporation of wildwood. Obviously um any um green belt in many ways has been slowly incrementally added to. Um for example in homeless homestead

estates um when that project was uh approved by city council city received a 90 foot wide corridor from Ria road to southern end of development site what was intended for will connect Babler state park down to route 100 and from route 100 then down into rockwoods reservation. So incrementally we have been attempting to add to the green belt if projects come forward acquisitions become available. The intent of the green belt obviously is for recreational purposes, but I also remind you back in 1996 it was about a wildlife program for wildlife to basically and then also the green belt is as one of original planning and zoning commission members drive through the lungs of the metropolitan area as it is heavily wooded and tree. The department has recommended that it be rehab but better define the transitional landscapes in connectivity considering you're adding properties to it. It is a slender corridor and I think there are some opportunities. So retain but revise. Any questions or comments?

Yes ma'am. So it just occurred to me because a lot of the things that I follow on social media are regarding you know wildlife management and stuff like that and there's a lot of popularity coming from you know wildlife corridors over interstates and highways. Has there been any discussion about having something like that over you know highway 100 or anything? There is a individual lady that attends via Zoom typically the coffees with the mayor consistent comment that Travis and I see as well as Mayor Garitano is something identical to that in that we have crossings in the the park areas that have high high rates of deer car deer vehicle incidents. So that's something that I think in the context of what he's provided as commentary we'd like to explore and get back to and that would be potentially the objective but that would be the policy the objective.

Yeah. I just I didn't know, you know, I haven't been privy to any conversations in the Wildwood area, but I you know, I think the benefit for, you know, traffic incidents is high and I also think it would make Wildwood stand out in the region kind of something like that as well.

Well, there's no objection on the part of the group members. We'll explore that. you come back with more direction and we'll get to that. Certainly if you drive those two arterial state corer and other didn't quite make it across in but as deadly as possible. Other questions on the green belt the next Oh, please.

Yeah. Mine mine's just more of a clarification for myself where it says the recommended action um you list wild wildlife benefits um climate improvements recreation I can't say rec recreational needs and aesthetic enhancements are we going to put specifics in for one of those are are all of them are we just going to leave them general if we do specifics I would suggest we consider those of the policies. Okay?

And if you have suggestions when we get to the policies, please let us know and we'll we'll write them down and do the research and then turn to you in September with our findings. Thank you.

You're welcome, ma'am. Um the next relates to our land use components. So behind this Schlago is the master plan land use map and it's a great map because it's really quite simple. Um there are roughly approximately specifically four land use categories. There is the non- urban residential area. There's the suburban residential area town center. And at the very northern tip of the city there is the wild portion of the Chester teal Dallas. We say roughly and approximately you won't see it necessarily on there but there is a fifth land use category. It's called historic. And what we discovered between 1995 and 2006 is that unbeknownst to the incorporators to the initial appointed councils is that there were a number of properties that had been developed that did not necessarily have support in zoning and some of those occurred back in the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s. And what we found is many of them were in historic communities like Rover and Pond or in historic buildings. So the intent was instead of just saying you had to vacate things, the intent was all for purposes of historic preservation was to allow them to be be retained but under the category of historic preservation. meaning the residence, the structure, the building, the land had to preserve through our historic observation and the components associated with it. So saying all of that, that's the fifth category. It's not it's not mapped on the map itself, so to speak. That's why it's a little

slide with roughly an approximately. So the suburban is the orange color and for all intents and purposes, that was the area that St. Lewis County had been developing from the period of time from the late 1970s to the incorpor. So those two areas separated by the eastern tip of town center um are all traditional subdivisions, harbors of Lake Chesterfield, um winding trails, um Point Clayton, all of those that many of our residents call home. And so there were at the inception of the city large parcels of ground that still existed, but those parcels of ground for all for over the course of the last 30 years have been developed and those include White Cliff, Windrest, Windrest Edition, um Woodcliffe Heights. So, as we talk today, there are probably just a handful of properties that remain in the suburban residential area that are what I would consider suitable for development. So, this particular objective says that the expansion of suburban type densities should be limited to those locations and parcels of ground identified on the map. And I've given you the explanation why there are two of them because of past development decisions of St. Louis County and the reasonleness myth of our process when we developed the master plan in that if you're surrounded on four sides by suburban densities. It makes no sense to say you should be non-urban or does it make sense to say

you should be town center and have high density next to a pattern. Um so the department basically have sold and retained it's worked pretty well. The key component of it is I don't know if you noticed but subdivisions like Oakidge Trails, Garden Valley Farms, West Hampton Woods, Crown Point Estates, they were not included. those were considered outliers and that if they were included, what would inevitably happen is their borders would create a suburban border, suburban border, and then that properties next to them would be able to claim, well, it's right here. Why can't I be suburban instead of non-urban? And so we drew the lines where we thought it was reasonable generally speaking where road systems were better, all utilities were available including internet and for for the from the perspective of the group that did the original um he didn't want that spread or that creep to occur. So retain as any question following along with

just a note on this one as well as back on go six with all the list of the plans maybe um put links um to each one of these documents. This one the conceptual land use categories map.

Certainly that's easy. Thank you. Go ahead to do it. Other questions on glob objective three. Okay. Objective four. Another existing. This relates to commercial and industrial development. You may be surprised that we do have an industrial area as I mentioned earlier. That's the wild portion of the Chesterfield Valley. It's about 450 acres or so. If you've gone to fix supply service, you've been in our industrial area of city of Baldwood. Um so commercial and industrial development should be promoted because it does provide um adequate uh adequate tax and service base for its citizens and it should be strictly limited to town center. The department has recommended that you can Just out of curiosity, how much of that is of the 400 acres, how much is now industrial and how much is available?

Well, approximately

um I would say of that 400 450 acre, there's probably about 300 that's available for um development. Um so, a couple things. Um much of the area that Wildwood has jurisdiction over, we've actually done industrial industrial uses and approvals of those uses fix supply service Kurt's landscaping combined services dco recently updated um the batch plan. So contrary to what you see across North Etherton Road in the Chesterfield portion of the valley bale, they do service, they do recreational. We've actually kind of stuck to our master plan and approved industrial type activities. You see by fixed supply service the mounds and mounds of compost that he generates manufactures there. Um, when we get to the conceptual land use categories map, we have two letters. One from uh a home builder and one from the owner of 235 acres of that Chesterfield portion of Chesterfield Valley seeking to have a little more flexibility with land use types. And so we'll be talking about that in a little bit, but for tonight's purposes in this objective, we don't want to expand industrial beyond where it is. And certainly town center at 800 plus acres as Mayor Garitano likes to describe is an area where a different group updates that specific plan about two years from now. So, but you have the authority when we get to

that particular area. terms of land use map, land use and the land use map to expand it if you should choose. But this is not what we're asking tonight. She's just saying industrial and commercial is limited to those two categories and the department is recommending free added please. So what do we do with um the businesses over at Clayton and Strucker and Stoalls and the gas station at one creek? What are those considered?

Um those are legal nonconformities. And so in 1997, all of the properties that Clayton and Golden Striker wrote, they were all reszoned by the city and we modify the master plan to reflect that they were preexisting, nonconforming, but legal. Same was done for the gas station at Route 109 and Wild Creek Road. Um others like the Gleno post office which was a C1 neighborhood shopping district designation we basically just have not amended the plan because it's the federal government and so the thought was why we don't believe it. So we recognize we have some outliers. We tried to address them through the reszoning process to ensure they didn't become more intrusive relative to the land use policies of the city and we modified the plan to address it.

Thank you.

Any other questions on number four? Number five, which is obviously not good and it's the next one at the top of page four, programs to improve communityization about and enforcement of planning and zoning regulations. This is code knowledge and enforcement. And a lot of people we hear I didn't know. Um since um the last update, we've hired an economic development manager that was also for all intents of purposes our commun communications manager. So over the last 10 years, we've been trying to address this. We now with Paula Bassan have someone that's more focused on communications versus economic development as our city administrator used to be the economic development manager. So they pair well and work closely together. From the department's perspective, we'd like to retain this and more align it to what we've been doing over the last 10 years versus what we thought we would do when we engaged the first economic development manager communications person. So we've we've evolved, we've matured, and I think we're on the right path. So we'd like to revise, but retain questions on that

go five, which is actually six, my apologies. Um, the city should continue to encourage life cycle h life cycle housing opportunities for all age groups. Um, this has been a goal u since 2006. Um, again, it speaks to the fact that we, as the city, we offer a range of housing types and affordability. As you know, affordability is a challenge these days in Wildwood. And so, we often hear from different individuals, whether it's younger adults, ministers, seniors, those that are one person households. So, no, excuse me. people that children, one adult, one person. Um, and so they struggle to find housing options that suit their needs and in an affordable manner. Um, it's probably one of the objectives we've not achieved very well. oftentimes one of the questions we hear is well what's the starting price on those homes and most people the reaction is when they say 500,000 to a million like that versus not liking it yet understand the reaction because it it helps re stabilize and improve existing property values when more expensive housing is built because obviously the opportunity to increase the value of your house follows.

But like I say, I can name couple of people I won't did that they wanted desperately to stay in Wildwoodsville and Chesterfield because they have different housing options that fit their particular time of life. So what the department is recommending is retain and let add a reference that affordability is a challenge. You should recognize this professor. Have we done any um research to obtain any data as to what affordability would actually mean? Do we have a range or

actually Tom Lee is working on something along those lines. um he may be into this meeting a little bit later but certainly we can respond to that question at the meeting in September. Let you know what we've what exploration we've done the initial results we have. Thank you.

Yes. But we were talking about affordable housing before and maybe this is what you mean by reference. But what what would he consider affordable housing? Well, I think there's standards that have been promulgated by the federal and state governments because the federal government obviously um through our community development block grant program, we have to basically agree to provide affordability and the housing choices we we provide. Um I can't say I'm not an expert on it. It's a both mission and your questions are very good. Wish I had a good answer, but we'll get you the answer. So, it may be segregated on age. It may be segregated obviously on income. I would defer to the other three planners in the room. If you know more than me, I'd sure like some help right now.

So, it doesn't necessarily mean to own.

No, that's a very good point. A lot of the conversation about the new apartment complex at Main Street and Taylor Road has been about offering an affordable option somewhere between 15 to $2,000 a month for people that I've described young professionals starting out um seniors, empty nesters. What we're seeing a lot of and I I I'm told this quite a bit conversations with people people that live on three plus acres as to what again don't want to leave Wildwood but they just don't desire having the large home and three acres or more to maintain. We really struggle to kind of point them in a direction. Um we've had some success in Sir Crest. Um that was what I would consider affordable housing when it was offered in the late 1990s. It was at a starting price of $300,000. Um the the Cambury development, not the town homes that started it, but when McBride Homes came in to complete it during the recession, those were in the $200,000 starting limit. So relatively speaking, affordable by prices that we're seeing today. Miss Ripto, Mr. Newberry, Miss Keef and I basically we're attending meetings, planning and zoning commission meetings, etc. And we're hearing most of the new projects are in excess of a million dollars right now. Um, starting prices.

Yes, sir. It's likely just from your land use that anything that would be considered affordable, new housing stock would be in Town Center. Correct.

And there's only certain areas within Town Center that could accommodate it. I know that the city will often times seek and solicit commercial opportunities. Have we when it seems like we got the apartment component in good shape right now, especially with the new ones once they get going, have has the city ever, let's use the land mass along Crest View Drive just as a land mass and apparently you have people there that would love to move out of there. the city broker broker is perhaps not a good word but facilitate hey we'd like villas go to villa construction be so the city initiate efforts to create the housing stock versus waiting for a developer to come in

well I'll maybe miss McCutchen Dr. Rambo or the mayor might want to comment. But what I will tell you is at least in the department of planning, we're reactive some someone to us, right?

And we try to discuss the components of all of our regulations. I would probably tell you affordability is the last one because from our perspective if we don't have an established policy or something in terms of a regulation oftentimes when you talk affordability some might feel that you're talking discrimination because affordability is a characteristic that was used in the past to keep certain certain certain races out of different areas. If we want a certain kind of housing, maybe we should seek out someone to build that.

I think the challenge with that is the existing homeowners can weigh in money they can for their property. And if we go in and say, "Okay, we want $200,000 apartments there," then the yield on that property is going to be X. are if they sell to a builder the yield on the property could be 10x and I think that's the challenge. I think you've described the tension we face existing homeowners concerned about the the development itself and the impact on the environment but also what are what are they what is the asking price and is the asking price less than what I paid for my home and that's a problem and so there's a tension there I think a way to address the

judge before so if we if we haven't done this in 10 years. What makes us think we're going to do it in the next 10? Well, that's an interesting question and I think I might have a partial response. Mr. Newberry and I have been talking to an individual who wants to wants us to consider a tiny home community, meaning homes that are somewhat very small, usually on slab at a greater density, but they are single family detached homes.

And there's been success across the country with some of them. Um, the person we've talked to referenced a situation where a divorce two kids. Sure. They're in apartment right now. They're trying to stay in the Rockwood School District, but they would love to have something they could call home. Okay. So, staff does believe there is opportunities to accomplish and within town center. Okay.

Um because not all town center sites may necessarily lend themselves to a traditional footprint of a single family detached dwelling, eight, nine foot basement, three bedrooms, three baths, that kind of thing. So in town center, I still like to believe we have some flexibility in terms of offering something a little unusual, but certainly something that someone owns and appreciates as much as any of us that have different types of housing. Yes, sir.

Yeah. Uh with regard to the inquiry about tiny homes, I have available in the downtown area roughly 4 acres of land and I would seriously consider uh a joint venture with someone like that which would at a minimum offset the requirement of buying the land because as I have learned most of the land owners who want to sell their property to new developers have a valuation that is totally unrealistic. But if you can take into consideration someone who's owned the property for maybe 40 years and is maybe able to develop part of the original tract to such things as maybe a movie theater or a shopping center, the ability to move a project like that forward becomes much more feasible than from someone starting from scratch. Well, um, not to tip our cards very much, but when I was talking to this individual, the fact that McKelby homes had to pull off that particular acre site because of the depth of that rock being so shallow, those tiny home communities are flat. So,

that was part of the impetus of my response. A couple things. the um I've heard some talk about um allowing did you call that like the accessible renting an accessible unit on your home

your property? auxiliary. Yeah, sure. Auxiliary structure that that would too might give some um flexibility. But also I was reading on H bill 595 just passed recently and um even before that there were a lot of laws about this but that it's um you can't refuse to rent or lease a single or multi-unit residential or commercial properties due to uh their source of income. So if somebody has um gets so much money from the government, what whatever it's from um they can use that as a housing voucher or something. You can't refuse. And that it even added this last bill added um res no restrictions on you can't use credit reports, credit scores, evictions or criminal history to determine eligibility. So that would open up apartments to

was this bill pass. It was passed I think in June. What was the name of June or July? 595 HB59. And you're saying it's federal? Yeah, it's No, it's Missouri. Missouri. Okay. The federal laws have already been there, but yeah, the Missouri law.

Okay. You know, again, as I mentioned, when we talk about projects, particularly residential projects, regardless if it's set or elsewhere, we don't talk about necessarily income levels, housing prices. In fact, we stay away from that. We use the regulations in the code relative to environmental components, infrastructure, utility, all the things that we feel guarantee that government, the property, the environment is protected, there's adequate access into and out of the site, safe and it has the utility networks to basically live in the United States of America in 2025, which is how highspeed internet as well as electric, water, gas, and everything else. So, we're guilty in some regards in ensuring that we have adequate utilities, safe appropriate infrastructure, protections to the environment, public space, storm water management. We add cost to all projects, but we add reasonable costs because those are the things you must have. and have the tenementss of New York City from the 1920s. We we learn from those mistakes and we make sure that housing is safe and appropriate. So, this is help sorry.

So, this this number six here, I I'm I'm all good with everything you're saying except that I the only thing that I would say is I don't know that I would put in affordability. I might put something in there to reference the safe and lifestyle psycho housing because I think when you put in affordability, you open up a can of wood. That is such a relative term. Affordable to who?

Right. And and uh if Wildwood is a desirable place to live, the houses and the apartments and everything is going to be more expensive out here than it is in a community where maybe it's not as desirable to live. So, I think if if it were my opinion, uh I would not put the word affordability in there because I think you just it opens us up to a host of whatifs. Huh? We can't control,

right? We can't control affordability. We can afford quality. We can afford we can control safety, but we can't afford we can't control affordability. That's a market driven uh uh parameter. So, that's all I have to say. Thank you. Well, certainly there should be conversation about that because as we move down the list, there's also a new goal about creating a housing affordability index, something to help us guide decisions. Some DDS in researched in the past, they require certain com certain developments to set aside affordable units based upon federal standards or state standards. We've never done that. We had conversations with a couple developers early on city um but they explained the parameters that prohibited it and certainly when it came to then the planning and zoning commission they concurred with those parameters. So I think if affordability isn't a component that you want as an objective and then corresponding policies we need to make that decision probably sooner than later.

Okay. Okay, then let me follow up and say that it's not not that I'm against for affordability. That's not

that's not what I'm saying. And so I want that to be clear right now. I I in front of planning and zoning, we had a woman who came to us about maybe a year ago who said, you know, my child graduated college and wanted to move back here and couldn't afford to buy a house. So I I believe that the life cycles approach is the way to go. But um when you I think that when you start trying to put pricing or affordability parameters on things, then you affect someone's ability to uh uh to sell their property for a certain amount of money or you affect a builder's ability to build a type of house or quality of house or a number of house or apartment or condo that they want to build. I think that um and we're not giving them money that maybe they're applying for federal grants to build their property or their state grants to build their property to let them meet their parameters for affordability. But I I think that we should not do that. I uh I think that you start I think that that's too many controls and it's something that would how can you manage that? How can you maintain that? That's me. So go ahead. I I'd just like to respond from the planning perspective. Um I think what you're describing is one one approach to affordability. Um, and the other approach is encouraging things like tiny homes, accessory dwelling units, missing middle housing through a variety of zoning measures, development standards, um, incentives, um, things of that nature to where you're not trying to control like what what income can purchase a a certain home or or rent a certain apartment, but where you're trying to encourage certain housing types that would I in effect, you know, result in more affordable

housing and more diverse housing types in the community. And um really housing and you're right, it it is very relative and typically when a community approaches something like affordable housing, you start with a pretty indepth study just like you would for economic development. You do a market study. Um, generally, you know, generally you would start with a housing affordability study where you kind of determine based on your community's characteristics and economics and social all of those factors, you know, what what would be the most appropriate u mechanisms for encouraging affordability. So, I just want to make sure you understand that when we're talking about affordable housing, we're not necessarily saying you we're not necessarily talking about putting controls on incomes for, you know, I don't think that I think that we're trying to put controls on the people that are building or selling the property we built on. That's what I think it initially it finally comes down to. I agree with everything you're saying and I liked what you said about diverse developments. I think that that's great and I think that you can con you can encourage that without regulating that. I think that sometimes we can overregulate and I so I think that it's great that we have uh the idea of the tiny housing. Um I'm a big fan of barnaminiums if anybody cares but um that's my goal house. Um anyway, I think that that's good and I think that you can encourage without regulating and I it's Vicki is of the mindset less regulation sometimes is better. So,

so, so again, I just want to point out um that just like just like in the in the city of Wildwood, we have a voluntary uh historic preservation program like where we're incentivizing and partnering and programming to achieve our historic preservation goals as a city rather than um regulating and controlling. The same the same thing can be implemented for affordable housing. Uh, for example, previously I was a planner with the city of St. Petersburg and we had a pretty strong affordable housing uh program. Um, it was very much, you know, kind of at the top of our priority list for the entire time I was planning there. Uh, but it was a voluntary uh program. So, it was all about incentivizing certain developments. It was removing barriers to certain developments because a lot of times that's what the problem is. It's not so much that um that we're needing to control, it's that we're needing to Okay. Well, in order to bring these types of uh these diverse housing types to Wildwood, what what barriers are in our zoning code to achieving that?

And can you give me an example of what one of those barriers would be just so that I understand? So, so for example, like with missing middle housing types and for those of you who don't know missing middle, missing middle is about lowcale um multifamily housing. So, like duplexes, quadruplexes, courtyard developments. Um you see some of these housing types in the city of St. Louis. Um but as we were trying to achieve that in St. Petersburg. Uh what we realized was that our zoning really just supported that single family dwelling on the lot. So it was harder to come up with these creative um you know land use patterns. And so we started looking at our arterial roadways and how we could potentially change our zoning to allow for uh these different housing types. uh for accessory dwelling units. We had to do a lending analysis because it turned out that just because we allowed accessory dwelling units in our code didn't mean that lenders felt comfortable uh financing such units based on certain factors and how could we as the city remove some of those barriers to you know to work with lenders to make the to facilitate these types of developments. So it's it's it's kind of a complicated topic. Right.

Um but but that's generally when I think of affordable housing um there there's a lot of different pathways um to go and it's not necessarily about what can we regulate. It's about how can we potentially remove some of these barriers and how can we make this a goal to strive towards. Thank you for explaining that to me. I appreciate it.

Mr. Rodney, you've been waiting for a bit. I know. I think defining that number is kind of the problem. And Vince just showed some very good information. HUD defines affordable housing as 30% of income. Well, I don't think that's what we're talking about realistically. It just doesn't work. So if we go if we go with that, I think our objective should be that our planning permission focus on creative opportunities to drive to Robin's point to drive alternatives. We're never going to get to $500 a month apartments, but we can focus our city activity on maybe coming up with different zoning rules and so on and so forth to to keep that price down and still support Wildwood. Yeah, I uh hearing this conversation um influenced a lot by what Vicki is saying and you know I think when I when I hear about housing affordability index I I think of usually big metropolitan cities that implement these types of measures and tools. Um so my first reaction is I don't know that Wildwood is at that stage yet for even to consider it or will it ever. Uh but the other part is really I think naturally we already are doing that through our land use plan because the town center if you're if you're going to look for let's say affordable housing options the town center allows for a higher density which would bring that to reality a lot more

than trying to find that out in ward six somewhere and I think the other factor is supply and demand so therefore there's more supply in the town center. There's more potential supply in the town center. It's not there yet. Um so, you know, we we we have to get even people to be interested in developing something in the town center. Um so, you know, that's I think what is going to really drive what the pricing is is the supply and demand and being that Wildwood is the last frontier of St. Louis County where you can get a three or large acre parcel of land.

I don't know that those pieces of land will ever uh come down uh because they are a unique uh find in the region. So um I think that I think we already take care of it through our land use plan is what what I really want to say. So I don't think we need that at this time.

Can I just say one more thing following up on Robin? I like what you said and I think that next the next time that we go through the land use the town center update thing that I think that whatever that is in seven years maybe I think that that would be the time to implement or and to do some of those things that you're stating because of the the other things that were are required. I don't think it's a bad idea, but I think it's more of a planning and zoning and working in the town center. It seems to me, that's just my thought, but thanks for explaining everything you did. I truly appreciate that.

Okay. Um, no. Um, you know, thinking about what Robin said and from a planning standpoint, um, the housing affordability index going through that will pull out all of those things you were talking about. Where would we need it? What what can we do? in the different areas. Should we do it in the town center only? All of this will come out in your planning part of that housing for Billy index. And then in the other one, you know, Vicki, your your uh your discussion on on that um objective, I think maybe we could even change the wording a bit to just say something like um diversified demographics so that it covers the whole gamut, the age and um economics. So we're not pointing fingers at one or the other. because we do want that. We want some We want inclusion. We want some divers diversity in Wildwood. I had um I used to to go to North St. Louis and do um and just do homework with kids in high school there. And these these kids are all black. Most of my family's black, but they um they were all like, "Oh, Wildwood. that's the whitest city around. And I'm like, what? No. And so then I start looking at the the demographics and I'm like embarrassed because we kind of are.

Nelly used to be my neighbor. He wanted to be, but did he ever finish?

He was there for a little while. My point is that you know we don't we have and when I was talking about on the council talking about the changing of the of the old slave road to Madison Valley and got a lot of looks when I would say uh blacks or you know like oh you know don't talk about that it to me it doesn't mean anything different because that's my family right but um but my nephew told me. And Teresa, just remember you are just another white face up there on that panel and you said all of you are look alike to a lot of people around. So,

so, you know, it just we need some diversity.

Well, so I wrote something down. I was just listening everyone because affordability I want you to think about the term affordability. I agree with you. First thing he did, he went and looked at HUD. Then we talked about big major city demographics. And now we're into whatever else. And as Robin pointed out, affordability could be a family dwelling. It could be all these different things. So I actually kind of wrote something down. I don't like the word affordability, too, because it immediately takes you down to low-income housing no matter what anyone's the intent. So I don't know. I just do something out there. develop diverse housing options across the socioeconomic spectrum. That would be your goal. And then that is open to everyone. Here you go, Joe. And and then it takes affordability out and we don't go to the lowest denominator here, right? And and we're thinking about all the different the the families the the apartments that someone doesn't want to, you know, their kid couldn't come back and they want $1,200 apartment, whatever it is. So anyway, my two cents. We should have just let you do this.

Yeah. What's that? Said we should have just let you do this. I'm from Ripley County. It was the third poorest county or parish in the United States for a long time. And now it's out of the top 10. It's like 15. But it used to be in the top three. That's a good compromise. I've seen poor. I think that means what we're trying to accomplish. Yeah. Cindy, did you something? Oh,

I think I was down the same path. So just to kind of bring discussion to let's say a little closure in town center Andre Dwani and his team was here. We did add a a number of options that would fit the housing town center plan allows accessory dwellings. It allows two dwellings on the same lot. Where else involved would that occur? We basically advocated for the work units which would have commercial on first floor ownership or renters on the second third floor. All of those things that we've talked about in terms of housing options are already in our town center plan and they've been retained through two updates. Problem is, and we were told this very early on from the development community, housing in St. Lewis is very conservative and nobody's probably going to basically support live work units. Accessory dwellings probably aren't going to be very popular. The most part they were correct. Um, if you go to New Town, Ritaker Homes built a number of buildings for live work uses. They're all residential now. It's just like I say, it's just a struggle. I'm not saying it's impossible, but the things we started with are not the things we we've seen occur are the the type of housing that the development community is proposing in the city.

Yeah. How much land is available in town center now that open for development? I say town center the absorption rate of developable land is probably now about 50%. 50%. So less than 400 acres and those are individual properties or collections of small properties. There's no longer the large tracks of land that we started with the reserve. The last large track that we have 50 acres is this.

So the McBride development that they chose not to go uh what were they talking about as far as their home prices? They were in that $400,000 range as I recall for a starter. But again, the response from the residents in Cambury Main Street Crossing and um Heatherton Road was they're too small, there's not enough parking, there's this, there's that. Ultimately, as we tried to address those concerns, adding additional parking, garages, things like that, the cost started to escalate.

Yeah. affordability, life cycle housing. So I think the conclusion was Mr. Jackson, I think the group would like to explore your wording. The Jackson plan. The Jackson plan. Jackson plan. There you go. All right. Well, um, we've got our marching artist. We'll see what we can do. Okay.

Number six. uh which is actually number seven. Um the town center area wild application of its required neighborhood design standards and architectural guidelines shall be met or exceeded by development interest. This came in 2016 and we were in a bit of a struggle at that time because a lot of our standards and guidelines weren't being applied. Not for any reason of city council or the mayor. It was just that it was out of the recession. The recession really didn't end here until about 2013 2014, meaning that's when interest and development finally started to reappear. And so there was an let's say an inclination on the part of others to basically um move forward, not necessarily have rear entry or side entry garages, not necessarily have partying board siding, vinyl, things like that. And so the group that was updating the plan then wanted to emphasize the first let's say 18 years of town center investments were made by developers to do what we asked and if we didn't continue that we were basically disinvesting and causing those individuals that follow the rules feel like why did I so that's their rationale the department is recommending that it be revised or enhanced and that we basically talk a little bit more instead of just guidelines and standards about pedestrian friendly improvements, quality public spaces along with always continue to advocate for superior materials. Superior materials means but I always tell people better materials last longer and with less maintenance. So there's a cost savings

down the road, maybe not. So any questions on that one? Yes. What I'm saying is there's always been an advocates for state and cores in the town center. Continuity.

Thank you. Good work. Continuity. Um next two are new. One is create a set of reasonable housing goals along with forming housing along with forming a housing affordability index. I think we've kind of covered that and we'll see if we can combine that with what we've just talked about for the last 15 minutes or so. And then the last one is new as well. Adopt and implement the city's historic preservation plan. Um corresponds with our goal of enhancing our built natural environments. Yes, sir.

Would that include any more teeth to preservation? I mean, everything's volunteer now pretty much.

Yeah. Would there I mean or or would it give could we come up with and and have that implemented is a little more pressure city control. So I'll let Robin respond here just in a second. So, so when the first historic preservation restoration code was being considered, there was a backlash from the community in terms of the extent of regulation that they were now experiencing. Remember, they went from St. Louis County with no grading code, no tree preservation or restoration code, no real master plan for the area and dens this development decisions relative to zoning district designations that were irrespective of the natural characteristics of the site. Wildwood comes along. We've got a grading code, tree preservation, restoration code, flood plane management requirements, master plan, natural resource protection standards, etc., etc. And so people that were on that next tier of development, let's say, west of Route 109, saw their dreams go up in smoke. And so now we were going to step in and say we're going to have a mandatory historic preservation program. And the mayor and the city council said, "No, we're not. you need to take a breather. In 2014 when we did the first major update to our historic preservation restoration code, that was the first question the department asked the group historic preservation commission members. Do you want to consider something that isn't entirely voluntary from the commission, those in attendance at the meeting was very very negative of going anywhere but voluntary.

So saying that um we stayed the course. Um but that is a question that was going to be asked when we get to that particular policy. Do we want to consider something? And Robin's what got more of the pulse of the community on historic preservation and what's your opinion? Would they accept something other than voluntary? Uh, I I get the sense from this. I feel like this community definitely leans towards voluntary approaches on most matters. We just got done having a a debate over the housing question and I I would say most would appreciate a more voluntary approach to it than than a regulatory one. Um, I would say that Wildwood does have some teeth in that we have a pretty strong uh demol demolition delay built into our ordinance. Um, in terms of, you know, there's a review process that goes uh anytime there's a substantial alteration or proposed demolition of a historic structure, it has to come before the historic preservation commission, a site visit must be conducted. there's opportunities to um potentially delay decisions another 30 days. And um so I've seen communities implement that as as kind of at least an opportunity to talk before things get lost. And I think potentially we're going to have a win in terms of the JP Connell House. Um, unfortunately we did not have a win in terms of the Mary Cliff residence which was recently demolished and that was a really sad loss for the preservation community. Um, so uh so I I mean again I think this is just another complex question that really comes down to what where is the

community at with it. I do think I do think you can achieve great things in a voluntary fashion. Um, I think when you can partner, when you can incentivize, when you can invest public funds into a public good like we have been doing with our historic preservation program, I think you can achieve quite a lot. Um, but pre preservation rather regulatory or or mandatory or voluntary, no matter which way you go, I guarantee you you're going to have, you know, some sad losses. You're going to have some wins. Um I I think the the regulatory approach is typically more controversial.

Well, I wasn't thinking so much as regulatory as what I was not aware that we could offer public funds for preservation. Well, we don't.

Yeah. Answer something. Here's what we do. We offer incentives. So, you preserve a great example is developer named Mike Mcder purchased a property um in the Riverbend subdivision off of Pima Lane. It was the River Creek House. It was constructed by a riverboat captain. It has this widow walk that looks out across the river into the Crescent Valley. It also has pretty terrifiable haunted history. So

that 109 is set at 109 off of route 109 but down by the boundary with the city of Eureka. It's a wonderful residence.

His first first step was I have x amount of acres. I can do four lots. Um, one of those lots isn't going to be where the Riverwood mansion is located. The Historic Preservation Commission, then the city council agreed that we waved some of the requirements relative to lot conventions, lot sizes, if he would say River Craig. So, where there was to be only four, there's now five. River Craig still stands today. So we offer zoning subdivision incentives, not outright payments.

And we don't have our property taxed away. That's what some communities do benefits to tax. Now Robins explored and we offer as part of the commission's services information and and access gains the state and federal tax tax benefits do exist. And so there is a benefit to getting on our register than going to the federal registry because then you can realize benefits to your tax bill.

We are we are considering a Route 66 grant program and that's probably our first foray into offering public funds for historic preservation efforts. However, that's still in development and still needs to go through the rest of the process. But that program like um community development block grants they have a home improvement program. There'll be some there'll be some requirements that maybe not everybody will accept. For example, with the home improvement program, you have to agree to live in the house five years after the grant. Again, you're improving your house. We hope you stay. In the case of Route 66 and some of the businesses, maybe it's, you know, if you do this, you get this. It's also just signage for businesses acknowledging Route 66 and their location on it. We've got the commission has done a very good job of creating some options that hopefully we feel that the grants will be minimal relative to cost today about anywhere from five to $10,000. But quite frankly, we like to think it's enough to kind of push the revitalization of Route 66, which our historic preservation commission and Robin and others have been working very hard for. So, yes, we got through goals, we got through objectives. Um, I'd like to propose a motion. Uh, doesn't look like we're going to make it all the way through policy today. So, I'd like to propose a motion that we accept the goals, we accept the objectives as is with the changes noted till we lock them in place before we start on policies. You have a second.

Does that include the reverb of Yes. Scott? So, one one thing if I may, Mr. Chair,

um I always leave a little few lines blank that say new but nothing next to them. I'm counting on your creative genius collectively as a group and individuals to tell us did you miss something? Is there something new out there in terms of objectives that correspond to the goals that you identified and discussed that we need to recruit? So this is the time I think for that discussion before we move to it too. And maybe this I should have said something about a goal previously, but I was just thinking about accessibility needs and should we add something in for counting that in from the very get-go, the very initiation of any project that we we plug it in for accessibility for physical spaces as well as there's a lot of digital um accessibility that's coming up in in the even ADA a

above ADA.

Yes. So, we as the city follow Americans with Disability Act requirements, St. Louis County, our partner through the building plan code review processes complements that. But what we're finding is we we still fall short in a lot of regards because ADA doesn't go necessarily as far as some of our residents want us to. So for example, through the efforts of Miss Clark, we now have interpreters at our concerts for those that are deaf. Um we also are have moved toward more requirements relative to accessibility in terms of our trail systems and construction standards, things along those lines. So yes, that's a that's a glaring mess on my part. So thank you. I think accessibility and to our master plan would be a work worth work worthwhile goal objective and policy for all.

Would that fit into the number seven within the town center? I mean would could you add that to to the back end of that town? Number seven within the town center area the wildwood application of its required neighborhood design standards. But you wanted to go into all of the specifics on here and put ADA in there as well.

Well, in terms of um housing isn't federally funded, let's say through FHA or things along those lines. There are requirements for rentals as I've been told, but individual privately owned single family dwellings do not have to necessarily be accessible. And we as the city don't review them from an architectural standpoint either. Any type of house you want as long as the private restrictions, the indentures alone. But from commercial, institutional, public projects, yes, we believe accessibility is key. And then the events we provide, we we work very hard at most recent master plan that Dr. Rambo and others worked on for park. We ended up creating two accessible trails and areas that could accommodate it other part of the site. Those trails are nowhere near accessible, but what it means is everybody can come to the park and access the beauty of good point. as well as all of the digital things that are coming up for blind and um and low vision and you know just like in the city hall half of the most of the time more than half the time the elevator isn't working so things like that are as a goal be really nice.

Yes. Yeah. I don't know if this fits in here anywhere, Joe, but um when we've been talking about quality of life, one of those were um asking developers to put in um soundproofing, soundproofing with insulation and certain types of glass. Um so I don't know if that would fit in here.

I think that's a great planning goal or objective or policy depending on how we want to approach it. So real briefly if I can build on that. So we years ago three or four maybe we engaged a consultant that basically studied the 1009 for sound and what we found is is that there are sound issues and the closer you there are two of those two forers. The recommendations were difficult. One was don't allow development of residential properties within three 400 feet of those borders. That's a take plain and simple. We had to buy the property to achieve that. So what we ended up coming with with the assistance of the mayor and city council and in many regards particularly um we asked the developer of the newest project at Route 100 Route 109 to increase install insulation soundproofing in the walls and in the windows and in the doors the openings so that although we may not be able to control noise we may be able to control how it impacts those people that proximity. So good idea

and and the developer I was very accommodating and had a good discussion with us and um through our meetings then um they agreed to that concept. So and it started with our planning and zoning commission we recommended it. So a lot of good thoughts accessibility

one more um thought I just had You know, last winter we came we learned that we didn't have a snow removal policy or snow removal. Yeah, I think it was the policy. We didn't have something set up. So, should we have something like um consider preventative maintenance schedules for um things like the snow removal and the um I don't know how to to put it all together, but uh infrastructure maintenance, things like that.

Um Mr. Brown, if you're there, I think the board of public safety is doing something exactly like that. There he is.

Joe, well um administration and public works committee has kind of brushed on this more recently. Um the issue of snow removal on sidewalks. Um but we nothing's really moved forward at this point in time, but we did talk about it has come up in the past um on occasion and you know what is the city's responsibility? What is a homeowner's responsibility for snow removal on sidewalks? What's a business owner's responsibility, if any, for snow removal on sidewalks adjacent to their business? Would there be objection on the part of the group that we kind of tackle that under transportation? Because we'll be talking about roads, bridges, sidewalks, pedestrian facilities, sounds.

Yeah.

Yeah. that that specific one, but I guess I'm thinking more overall with preventative maintenance schedules on I guess road and bridges would be under that too, but like the building that we have kind of overlooked for a while and now it's a major problem like that. Can we include that in where would we include that? Actually, I think it's the best home for that maybe community services because we talk about the role of the city in many aspects of how we how we privatize most of our services relative to infrastructure, parks, etc. So, let me take a look at if there's no objection on the group, maybe I'll take a look at community services, which is the next element of study accepted into that so we can have a discussion.

I was just feeding off of what David said about, you know, the s sound proofing, sound abatement, things like that. Has there been any discussions on, you know, along Highway 100 have some kind of, you know, tree or bush planting to try to, you know, as part of the development, they should be putting that in there, too? Because I know, you know, you said with three 400 feet from a a roadway, but like the topography and villages at Bright Leaf, that noise just comes right down into, you know, my street. So I can hear which is awesome. I can hear the music from up here pretty pretty well during

during the concerts but you know the roadway is you know pretty loud still. We do um after the conclusion of the study by the sound consultant, we set aside this year $40,000 for a pilot program to see what we could do along a section of route 100 where the sound sound the levels of sound are above both EPA ashtto and can't remember the other station. So we have money set aside. We're going to see if we can do something if it's workable. it works then we'll detect.

Yeah. So I mean having it as part of this or you know if it does fit more into like you said with the you know the construction piece of the plan but it'd be nice to have that kind of mention at least. Yeah. I I know there was quite a bit of discussion about sound and the development on the St. Luke's property was was going in and and I think that's where we got the developer to increase the insulation and use sound. First question is I I can't remember did we discuss sound walls?

Yeah, we did. Rick can kind of talk. Route 109 was improved. Roundabouts at Poundro Parkway section of Route 100. The state did do an analysis or consult working with the state. The city do did do an analysis and it didn't meet this the standards. Rick, do you want to comment?

Sure. Joe, I mean just for from the perspective of that project mod when you are adding capacity to a roadway um and that's what we were doing on the 109 project originally. Um this is when we added add lanes went from two lanes to four lanes um from that section from Clayton to Route 100. They require you to consider noise impacts and other environmental impacts as well. But on that study, as part of that project, u because again it had federal funds attached to it, uh a noise study was done to look at the impact of the additional lane, the additional capacity that was added and the additional traffic that would be added to the road now and into the future because you actually look at a 20-year horizon. And you have to estimate the noise levels of the uh properties adjacent to the roadway, the the sensitive noise receivers and then make a determination if it's great enough that you should try to mitigate for that. So that that is done on highway projects. It has been done for um some while or it is a a requirement of highway projects that are federally funded has been that way for for some time. But in the case of the 109 project, there was ultimately a decision made not to add sound barriers um because quite frankly they are challenging to implement in an area like Wildwood. Um they may be very beneficial to the adjacent property owner, but they are challenging to implement. Um they're costly to implement. They're a huge isore in the eyes of many or most probably quite frankly. Um, and so they're they're difficult to uh they're just not real practical in a suburban environment like Wildwood, frankly.

The second part then is the what's the development that's just west of 109. They're like town homes or I think it's a McBride or a McKelby project. They'll build you're talking about the one on the corner there. The town's at Windrush. Windsor Windsor Crest. Okay. Do Do those people have sound problems? They may well have, but I've not talked to anyone. No one's called the department or at least talked to me and complained about the noise issue. Remember back then, Route 109 was just too loud.

And so from that perspective, it was a little different circumstance. Um and for for the purposes of the town center process that was to be a large commercial center. So a lot of people when proposed residential there they were were glad I guess glad to see it. Mayor.

Yeah, I think the the whole issue of noise, I mean, when there is a significant change that has occurred, I do think that it is worth exploring options to see how we can mitigate the noise, but as a comment was made before that, you know, it would be really feasible to do that for all of Wildwood. I think you also have to there's an accountability and responsibility of the people that made the decision to move next to a major road just like people who made a decision to move next to an airport. I mean, you're going to expect to hear noise and if that's a concern when you're shopping,

well then I think that's when people rule out buying near a highway or a major road. And uh and that would be my case. I would not buy next to a major road if I didn't want to hear the noise. So I I think that if there so I think there's a lot of times where there's an understanding that that's been there since before they even moved in you know that road uh but there are situations where if there is a significant disturbance or something then yes we can look at it to mitigate it but uh so no I don't think there is a perfect solution to solve the noise problem there are things that can be done to reduce it mitigate it, but it's very expensive. And so, you know, just like someone who would buy a home next to a creek if you uh have a know there's a history of flooding and that's a risk that you're going to take. And so, I think we have to remember that there is a certain level of accountability and responsibility on the individual. Um, on planning and zoning, one of the things I I noticed that the city does is that they they do do quite a bit of of of when somebody comes in asking the builder, these are the things that we see. And what I'm the only reason I know that is because um I was happened to be around when they were talking about the hidden valley and they had a sound study guy come in and it was just absolutely fascinating. I'm kind of a little bit of a nerd. I like to learn. And one of the things this guy said was when you plant things like grasses where there's more small leaves that it dissipates the sound, right? And that if you build a wall to a sound wall that it it actually just protects that house that's right up against the wall, but then it dumps the sound another block over. So, um I will

say, you know, I'm already a fan of of the department, but I will say that they do a pretty good job, I think, of asking the builders to um address that like they did at 109 and 100. So, I just thought I would put that out there. There you go, Travis. Yeah. So,

as far as sound mitigation goes, no one is suggesting a wall. That's just not a part of the conversation. But we had we did find out from um our experts that if you do a burm and you plant trees on top of it, that helps mitigate the sound. Um or if you just do a line or two lines of trees, that helps mitigate the sound. And that's something that is not that expensive. And for if you live up and down 109 100 when the city was like in 1996 or so, there wasn't any noise. It was a one- lane road and there were u woods and and tree lines and all all things that helped mitigate that sound. But then as they expanded the road, they put the roundabouts in and then more people moved in, you know, that increased the sound. So, I don't think this it's right to say or appropriate to say that um you should be aware if you move near a highway that you're going to have exponential sound because when a lot of those subdivisions were put in, that wasn't the case and they kind of got caught in between. Now, I agree with you. Don't move. You should know better than to move to build up against creek. I I understand that. That's just I think pretty much common knowledge. But when you move into somewhere and it's quiet and countrylike and country road and then all of a sudden it's not that way anymore and it does bring noise. I know Camberry Place complains about the noise. People who live close to a roundabout complain about the noise and that was part of the study. The sound is louder around a roundabout. Um, so I I I don't think you can just say, "Well, they moved there, so so sorry." Because that's was not like it was when they moved there.

But yeah, what I would just say to counter that is at the time there was a mall that was planned to be built there by St. Louis County. So whatever is there today is a hundred times better than before. What Wildwood Oh, sure. They wanted to do a a a loop around Pong Grover Loop and make it look more like Chesterfield with overpasses and and all those kinds of things. That's, you know, I thank God that didn't happen.

I had a conversation uh I will sorry for a second, but I think this will be entertaining. Um I had a conversation with a resident that had said that they had been uh at a location before it was a location here before it was Wildwood. And so I said, "So you you moved here. Reagu didn't exist. St. Louis County was building like crazy back then. So that's what you moved in under those conditions. It's Wildwood that actually brought the protections in place. And so, you know, I think the incorporation helped a lot, but I think, you know, it's don't know how you can say that it was supposed to be protected when there was nothing then back then to protect it. St. Louis County was obviously building away and would have probably continued and that was going on around uh in a lot of the neighborhoods there. So, so, uh, sometimes, uh, you know, it's like, oh, well, this was supposed to be protected. I'm like, no, that rule didn't exist.

You look at Times Beach and that guy that dumped stuff so got out got and nothing happened to him and he dumped this stuff. So, just as a point of reference, on day one of the city of Walt, September 1st, there were 2600 lots that had been approved within about 18month period prior to the incorporation. That was the legacy we all started with. So, a lot of development that we had to accept and make the best of. So, it's 8:17.

Sorry. Great discussion, but are we at a point to where we can freeze these goals and objectives under this meeting? Was there a second on your motion? 99. Second. What was the motion to to approve them as with all the changes etc. I thought so too. I wasn't sure. There was a second. So, okay. Boys payment landing. The motion be clear because we want to get it. Motion is to approve the goals and objectives as has been discussed with the changes incorporated as recommended by yes. Yes. Vote. All in favor?

I I Travis, do we have any public comment? Uh Mr. Chair, the only people on Zoom um are those members of the group. So, no. Okay. Mr. Mayor, tied up in the beginning. Is there anything you would like to close with?

Uh I'll be brief so that we could get everybody a chance to go home. Well, thank you just again for your service and uh I think that you know this was good, you know, effort tonight making progress through the list here. So, let's keep at it because we've got a lot to cover and uh I know that Joe wants to get it all done by a certain date. So, uh we're going to work to do that. But, you know, this is a process that you know it's open to so if anybody's got any ideas, feel free to share. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Mr. But I'm not leaving.

True. Again, as I mentioned, if you have comments on, please send them to Travis. We have their emails for corporate have them back to you in September. And Mr. Mayor and Ke announcement about our philosophy with Metro West. Well, I uh I can only speak to and I actually do know the fire chief, the new fire chief, Brad Shelton. Very fortunate that he lives in my neighborhood. So, um actually a couple doors down. So, he had some city or you have a fire issue care of on the same street. Uh told I said that's quite a coincidence. But anyway, uh he is uh he is someone that I think's been ready to step into that role. I know he's been part of the department for many years, ever since I probably moved there. So, well, you probably have more to say.

Just u Brad will do a great job. We're very fortunate to have a good organization there and they had a lot of talent internally to continue. Uh but yeah, it's unique that you have equidistance from you. Three fire juice. You're you're on that. Yeah, you're too. So, it uh but he'll do a great job. He's going to he'll get up speed quickly. He's been on one for a long time. So, yeah. 25 years at least, I think. Yeah. That's good. He's just turned 50 years old this weekend. I know. Thank you. Well, we have a new fire chief. We have He's a good man. Next meeting September 9th.

Okay. And we will get into policies where we left off tonight, Vicki. So I can I just get a little bit of clarity? We have finished all of the environmental except for the narrative. That's is that the only one that we've completed? Yes, ma'am. Okay. And is there do you guys have that the changes that we all voted for? Do you have that all typed up already? Yep. Yes, ma'am. Could I request that you email that to us just so we could look it over or would you rather wait till the end? No. I don't want to add to your plate. I really don't. Be glad to. The sooner you have it, the more you can review it, the better off we are. So, yes, I'll send it out tomorrow. Okay. Thank you very much. Have a motion to close.

Second. Ice in the jar.