Economic Development Committee - Regular Meeting

Thank you everyone for coming to the uh economic development committee committee meeting here on Tuesday, July 22nd. I guess it is now 5:32. So we are live. Uh so we'll get things uh rolling here. So uh Miss Lovc, can you please uh call to order? Council member Utenberg. Council member Preston here. Council member Alers. Council member Bockart. Okay. Okay. Council member Farmer here. Council member Crayons here. Council member McCutchen here. Council member Troutier. Oh, there is. Council member Bert

here. Sorry about that. So present. So we do have a forum forum. So um uh first uh next order of business is just the approval from the minutes from last month. Um I assume that uh we had plenty of folks here who were there last month. So um do we have a motion to uh approve those minutes? Made by Mr. Farmer. Second by Mr. Cray. Uh all in favor please say I. I. Any opposed? Any abstensions? Okay. Uh motion. Did uh Jason chime in? We probably would need him to

Mr. Bcker. We had just uh took a vote on approving the the minutes.

Can you hear me? Yeah, there is now. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah, I said I agree. Oh, okay. I'm a I'm a yes. Okay. Motion carries then and uh minutes are approved. Um, which uh then I guess brings us on to the next topic of public comment. Uh, do we have anyone who fill out cards or is in line? David Mesner.

Good evening. How is everyone tonight? Good.

I'm here to give public comment as a resident of Wildwood specific to economic development. And so I don't start meandering. I've written everything down. and I'm happy to provide you a copy. So, if you don't mind, I'll give my presentation as such. So, I'm a real I'm a resident of Wildwood. I've been here for 10 years. I live in Ward 3 and I'm a real estate developer by practice and I've been involved in economic development and downtown strategy efforts in Herman, Missouri, downtown St. Louis. My partner, I've spent the last six years redeveloping LLED Landing. Uh, and most recently, I've kind of turned my attention to Wildwood. As I've stepped out of the city, I've been a general partner in complex tax credit and redevelopment projects. I've operated small businesses both in rural Missouri and downtown St. Louis. Uh I've operated in a tourist town and I have a wide network in the site selection and economic development realm. So this is not something that I am interested in. It is something that I do every day. I spend my time talking about, reading, learning about, looking what other places are doing, practicing and doing the work being discussed today and in the over the past six months as the economic development strategy has evolved. I've spent the last decade in Wildwood wondering amongst other people why things like the town center continue to be the way that they are. I've attended coffee with the mayor and listened to that feedback and I've read a lot of articles and strategies from going back as far as 2004, 2006 and 2008 about Wildwood Town Center, the Wildwood strategy, etc. I'm here today to offer comment on what I see being pursued as the current trajectory of Wildwood's economic development efforts and the strategy and the focus. It's been reassuring to hear concern about the lack of development and the viability of the town center as well as the outreach and the feedback to business owners. However, I've seen the story that's unfolding repeated elsewhere where councils, committees, and advisory boards chase the details and miss the story. I believe the strategy, the suggested approaches are going to lead to frustration and failure, and we don't want that. I care deeply about the

future of Wildwood because I have young kids and we don't want to be here in 10 years leaving. If the past 20, 10, and 5 years are indicative of what we're doing in the future, it's most likely 10 years from now when our kids are 18, we'll be looking for somewhere else to live. From the meeting notes in the commentary, I see an emerging trend that the bet that may have been best practice prior to the pandemic, but does not reflect the current landscape. Furthermore, the issues in Wildwood is not a lack of interest, but the lack of density of customers who patronize and staff the businesses. One suggestion, so a few of these suggestions are kind of from the last 6 months. A few suggestions have been discussed. One is to proactively attract office tenants to Wildwood. For reference, Bamboo Equity and Intel CRA, who own the building where Benadettos is, they're some of the best in the business across the region. If they can't do it, this tells us something else. And I don't think we should believe that we might be able to do better. If they can't make the numbers or the marketing work, I don't think I would be sitting here today saying that I could do any better myself. Why would I lease in Wildwood for $23 triple net when I can be down in the valley for the same price or less? The major factor here is the cost of rent, the consumer behaviors of the residents of Wildwood, and the staffing challenges that many of the business face in Wildwood. And we've heard that from the businesses. I don't think it's prudent to ask the businesses Wildwood why they are here, but we need to know why the businesses who looked here and made a different choice. There's also a proposal to have an external committee to advise the city on the industrial park. Geostl, Greater St. Louis, Inc., Techstl, and others have not been able to create a robust ecosystem in Cortex or downtown. I'm not sure why they would be able to be successful in Wildwood. It's important to remember that Wildwood is a 15 and 20 minute from either major highway to the region, which is a big factor in site selection as well as any business operation decisions for getting employees here from St. Charles or elsewhere. The longer the land uses in

the town center are restricted to commercial and office, so that's up by that brother's uh fish and whatnot and that other places in the town center, the longer they're going to remain vacant. The market for new office development in St. Louis and especially Wildwood is non-existent. You have almost 3.3 million empty square feet in downtown St. Louis. You have hundreds of thousands of square feet in Chesterfield, Depair, and Town and Country. Wildwood is not going to rank at top of that list without some substantial incentive or something else going on. So, if I'm a site selection group, I can't get the numbers to work because I can't get the employees to work. The strategies also do nothing to address the declining population and inaccessibility of starter homes within the city of Wildwood or the Rockwood School District. Why is that important? Most of the older residents are relying on steadier increased demand of new residents to purchase their homes when they retire. And then the demand is also predicated on a high performing school district, a difficult proposition with en with declining enrollment. And I'll talk about that later. The average age in Wildwood is 44 years. 44 years old. These approaches also fail to address the critical issue of Wildwood's difficult reputation amongst development community. There is a reason few projects are being proposed in the city and it's not for lack of interest in accessing the customer base. The evidence is clear when you drive along Etherton Road. Why would all the new buildings be everywhere except Wildwood? As a more recent example, consider the seven-month process to get a Chapter 100 approval for the apartments being proposed right next door. There is a this is a cautionary tale that reflects the feedback of of my own colleagues which says I could not recommend a developer go to Wildwood nor would I despite seeing the tremendous opportunity make that recommendation. It would be much easier to make money elsewhere with fewer hiccups, frustrations and delays and that's exactly what is happening. I agree with my neighbors who are concerned about Wildwood becoming one big subdivision. In that case I believe

that areas outside of the town center should be preserved as the rural character of the city. However, for 30 years, the council has worked against the very town center plan that was meant to create a dense town center amongst a rural city. And we see that because New Town has thrived, and our town center is what it is. I would highlight that the firm who prepared the town center plan no longer features us on their website, which is full of success stories from across the country. The difference here, we didn't allow the plan to work, and we didn't create a positive development environment. The answer to wild and woes is not in embracing corporate drive-throughs or fighting density. The businesses will thrive when there are young families who live near interesting retail concepts. There is much talk of sustainable development, affordable housing, and the rural character. And I don't really know or think everyone uses those terms the same way, but I can tell you what I believe they are trying to communicate. The citizens of Wildwood are not interested in a vast master plan subdivision with three with 3/4acre lots and $650,000 plus single family homes. In fact, the market in this region that the market in the region that can afford that is shrinking every day. I believe the citizens also don't see these developments as sustainable for their environmental impact which we see across the highway in the commentary and what we see in the clear cutting of the new subdivision across 109 and the extra traffic in the distance it plays between destinations. This is also not in the spirit of new urbanism on which the town center plan was developed. What I'm hearing is a cry for the new urbanism experience that is in demand and observable so many other places. We're talking about town houses and row houses with zero lot lines, condos in the commercial spaces above Milk and Honey, and town houses with carriage houses and a and ADUs on boulevards like you would see in Tower Grove, Sulard, or somewhere in the city. This is a product that can be built to a highquality design at attainable prices, increase civic amenity. The traffic is offset by the density and the walkability. However, it can't be done

with a 2 to threeyear development approval timeline, and the capital developers will pack up and go to St. Charles or elsewhere. As another point, Wildwood needs to decide what market it wants to attract. The current strategy suggests nibbling around the edges of initiatives that are marginally successful in other places. This being office attraction, this being gestl, this being these other things that are not quite working and don't reflect, I think, our core business here in Wildwood. In all of my experience, council directed or recommended ideal uses or best uses of land are asking for disaster. The development communities knows what numbers make sense and zoning and land use guidelines exist in Wildwood for this reason. So the council taking the position that they'll tell tell us what the land use should and could be is going to take the development community off the side onto the sidelines and say that's fine. You you can hope there and we'll go build somewhere else. In the same vein, catering or tailing an approach to the community college students will likely not deliver results. We must create housing amenities and options that will attract the students rather than try to pull them in. To that to that effect, I don't know that we know that the students are desiring to do anything in Wildwood. They very well may live in Fenton and desire to spend their money there and they're commuting in and out of that campus. Like many office tenants, the days of dining out for lunch at $15$20 a day are elusive and increasingly rare. This is true in Clayton. This is true in downtown. This is true in Chesterfield. This is true everywhere that this retail concept is being tried. So, it's not all doom and gloom. What are my suggestions for what it's worth? Wildwood should be the destination for outdoors in the region. It's in our logo. It's what everybody talks about. It's why people say that they live here. It should be the choice of new couples who want to start a family, families and empty nesters who want a sense of an oasis from the chaotic, densely trafficked suburbs of St. Louis and St. Charles County. We can look to town and country and their town center and their trail network and what they've been able to do without introducing the architectural atrocities that we look down upon so much in our

neighbor Ellisville. Although we will require more density to support the scale of our town center. Take a look at what's emerged in Cotville around Frankie Martins or take a trip to New Town St. Charles, our sister city in St. Charles County that was designed and built around the same time and see the master plan townhouse style developments that's created consistent demand pedestrian traffic and a very dynamic lifestyle that we are not that we say we have here but we do lack. If you're willing to look further consider the trail network and the living arrangements in Sun River, Oregon. Wildwood is missing an extraordinary opportunity to overindex on the amenities we communicate in our marketing as being so integral to our way of life. Yet we are not ne we are not investing nearly as much as we should in those assets. There is a member of the planning and zoning committee who is an architect and has mentioned many times that other cities have facade or uh easements that can preserve the character of the town and I fully support those.

And not to cut you off um I guess I didn't realize um how filling in for Scott but there is a 5minute time. Certainly. Where are we at? We're a little which is still fast, but that's fine.

Anyhow, the time to start addressing these issues and building capacity was prior to that, especially during the pandemic when construction rates were 3 to 4% and inflation had to hit construction costs. To add frustration to the opportunity, even the chapter 100 report highlights the benefits to the city for increased density. Final point, while it sounds dramatic, Wildwood is in the middle of an existential existential crisis that should be highly concerning to the region. St. St. Louis Public Schools recently announced they're closing half of their facilities because there's no kids. The population in St. Louis County is going down and Rockwood enrollment is projected to decrease another 3,000 students in the next 3 years. We cannot continue with 3acre lots in everywhere in St. everywhere in the city and continue to fight density in the town center. If Wildwood fails to attract sustainable and youthful density in our cities and re and follow recommendations, the economic development efforts will all be for nothing. A Zachby's drive-thru will have no customers to serve except people driving through wondering what could have happened here. Thank you. Thank you for your comments. I think that's it. [Music]

All right. Uh and

just sounds like we're all right. Uh it was an echo. Um no comments on online either. Okay, very good. All right, so then we will move on for the uh for information section here and uh we've got a few items to discuss there. So um starting with the Zachby's interest in Wildwood. Uh is that you Tom or is that um Paul? I'll let Paul.

All right, we'll turn it over to Paula. young for young families. Thank you. Um and uh and dining options that are uh healthier alternatives. And so we understand that Zach is interested in the St. Louis area. So, we've proactively been having conversations um and Wildwood is on the radar and so they are looking for um their franchisee profile as an experienced multi-unit restaurant operator capable of developing a minimum of six stores in the region. Um we've listed site requirements, timeline, and market familiarity. And um so next steps would involve helping to identify candidates um or connect with qualified operators who meet Zachby's profile. But we're on the radar. This could be a potential option. Um and uh and we've also so we'll continue uh outreach with expanding the network of potential franchise candidates and we'll we'll update as things move forward. Uh any questions? Did anyone open it up for discussion for Paul?

Exactly. What line of business are they in? Chicken. They also have salads, wraps, and uh can Yeah, it's just set in or takeout. All the options. A lot of the time it's takeout. Yeah. Build a restaurant or own a place for a restaurant. Okay. It's not a drive-thru. which it's going to be a restaurant though, but it's a drive to 100%. So, they're just looking at they're looking for six locations in the area. Yes. Well,

and Wildwood is and so one the location that they've looked at um Highway 109 and Route 100. Um and we pointed to some things like the expansion of St. Louis Community College, uh, the Wildwood campus that they're looking to attract that demographic and it could it could be a good fit.

Joe, yeah. So, um, thanks Paula for giving us a little briefing on this. So, I sent this article over just because I thought it looked interesting and especially with some of the things that we're talking about and some of the things our, uh, public commenter brought up. You know, my thought was it's good to know that we're on a list somewhere. Whether we make that list or not remains to be seen. The fact that they need to find a franchisee that's going to open up multiple locations. That'll probably take a while. But, um, I think as we have these conversations about, you know, changing some of our rules when it comes to fast food or looking at some of these other changes, like in engaging companies that are spending lots of money to figure out where to put something is a good thing for us to do. I think it's not something that we as a city have done in quite some time. And so whatever information, even if it winds up that we don't get a Zach piece, which would be fine, but understanding like what makes it appealing. One of the things that was interesting in this article and this conversation was that, you know, Zach's as part of their kind of business model are looking to probably not be just the only store sitting out in the middle of a field somewhere because that, you know, creates problems. We know as a city as we've discussed and we heard about again today that you know we have we have some issues with workforce getting to where they need to be and so parking is feas well I think it would be great out at 109 and and wherever 100ish

there's no way for these people to get to and from there unless we were to figure out a different solution at the moment. So you know this is kind of one of those things where it's good to know that we're on the radar. It's good to know what they're looking for, but it's also important to realize that we have some holes in our plan. So, that's kind of spurring some of these other conversations in a in a bigger way. So, I'm I'm excited to hear what they say. It it turns out I think he's got family here in town, so he's super familiar with us. Um, so we'll keep that avenue open, I think. Anyone else? All right. Well, thank you, Paula, for that. Um I think yeah I mean like I think uh Joe makes some very good points about that too. I mean just considering um I think at this point in time where we're talking about some of these higher density developments and how that's going to impact things. I think probably asking ourselves is it easier to have people here or easier to get people here and I think it's easier to have people here. I I don't foresee a path forward if we're going to depend on busing people in. I just so I just think that should be on the back of our minds when we consider a lot of this stuff going forward. Um, so anyways, we'll move on to um the next item on here, just the uh launch of the twoe Wildl Business Trivia Challenge.

And I assume that's Paul as well.

Yes, it's part of our effort to uh inform in a fun way and engage our community. Um, and so this is part of a fiveweek trivia challenge that's tested people people's knowledge about the age of our city to how much our property taxes are. Um, and so, uh, we've had we've gotten record engagement. The last two weeks are specifically business focused. Um, and so we've, um, it involves prizes, swag, which people are very excited about. Um, and it's gotten us record engagement. Um, with just looking at the the two weeks for the business focused series, um, our engagement on um, on Facebook is nearly triple what it was the same time last year during the same period. So, um it's boosted engagement and just overall uh positivity about our city.

Great. Any comments from anyone? And um are we expecting to see that? Um is that fully tilt now out there? Um or it's all posted. Yeah. All the the questions and answers are all online. Oh, great. Okay, very good. so we can continue to share it and it's it continues to be a resource similar to an FAQ um so that we can uh point people to it as a even for new residents something to think about in the future including something like this a QR code to new resident packets uh how they can learn about the city if they're new here. Oh, so that'll be an ongoing just uh uh feature on the website. Yep. Great. Excellent.

Spotlight now. Did you take the test at all? I failed it. It's tough. I get all these questions about fees and licensing.

This and this is tied into another uh aspect. So, at during the last gazette, I just want to point this out. Um the mayor with the mayor's encouragement, we put together an article. It's called Wildwood by the numbers and we're planning on doing another version of this for the upcoming mailing to the public as well. But the idea is to point out some of the the key facts about Wildwood that make us a little bit special and kind of you know quite frankly when you bring up property tax we don't have one. So that's another thing and quite frankly we don't have the we're trying to sell that as hey you know these are things that we may take for granted but um the hope is that with this type of trivia campaign also with business that it helps get support and just overall interest too. So the idea is we put the U posts out and then an individual can get the swag as promised uh gets them engaged and then hopefully they go to the website and actually check uh check the answers and then after that they can see some other content that we have on there. They would find out today it just came down as the road opened but why the road was closed on Wild Horse Creek Road. So they would catch some of these other things that are happening throughout the day u while also just visiting the site. So hopefully just grabbing more engagement.

Oh yeah. Great. Um, all right. Uh, moving on then, uh, to the, uh, business updates and community highlights. Um, I know I think we already had all those documents, right? Um, I'm reading those. So, um, just to recap, I assume that's Paul as well. Uh, I was going to mention one item and then Paul could take the rest. Thomas.

Yes. U, after discussion with the mayor, but also more so with Chair Oddenberg. He's not here tonight, so this might be something that's coming up. Uh but we did want to mention Community America Credit Union who is showing interest in potentially opening up uh Electro Savings Credit Union. Um that was formerly occupied over at 16500 Manchester Road. Uh they recently were sold to Community America. Um you might recognize this company. They're like a big sponsor of the Cardinals. U they're kind of growing in the St. Louis region. They purchased all the electro credit saving unions um throughout the entire community and also throughout the country. they in that purchase got all of the uh properties with it. So right now they're doing a independent evaluation of each individual property and really doing a thumbs up, thumbs down on whether or not they should reopen them or sell them. Um the good news is they are looking at Wildwood as a serious contender and hopefully looking to open up a location where Electro Savings Credit Union once was. Um the major issue with the property that they have mentioned to us at least in the initial meeting, we haven't received additional info other than their uh their general sign package, which is it it it's a little bit larger than we typically would, but we could work with them. But the other thing is they're wanting some type of signage directly on State Route 100. And tonight we've provided some photos of what they currently have access to with the property they own, which is on the uh the third page, which they would currently, as permitted, no additional approvals other than just the sign permit itself would be needed. Uh they they have two wall signs and they have a monument sign that's located on Manchester. They you can't see that that monument sign when you're on 100, but it is it is still there. What they're hoping to do is well originally was to throw one on 100 itself maybe in the rightway that we can't do that. MODOT won't allow that. So that just can't happen. That said, there are two other options that are available to them and

that are they're currently looking at. Um Mobile on the Run currently has Shnooks. It shows that it can be done. Um they have it Shnooks underneath the Mobile on the Run there in the monument sign. That would have to be rebuilt. That could be pretty costly. Uh, one other item though, the AFA um, school, but uh, more recently owned by uh, Orchard Learning, they actually have a monument sign on Manchester Closer to 100 as well, and they've actually approached the city recently about doing a new sign. So, something could maybe work out there where maybe they give access and they share a sign. Um that said, if that were to be permitted, it would require a variance from the board of adjustment, which um with the signage that's currently available on the site could be a little bit more difficult. But this does seem to be a a pretty clear indicica, uh pretty clear issue for them. really just bringing this up because this might come back to the EDC when it's about to go to the board of adjustment just for get comment not necessarily a decision but hey they've once they actually applied we would have more fact between us but that's most likely what they're going to be asking for is a sign that's pretty close to 100 and then uh Paula had the other updates tonight um so for business updates we've got um some new homebased businesses um and we have a bunch of places currently hiring ing um recent openings we know about St. Louis Community College um and then the mixeduse development. A few things I want to call out obviously is the uh celebrate Wildwood on September 20th right now. We're also working on the Gazette which uh we're using to drive just engagement and awareness about the event. Um we're also including in the in the gazette some QR codes to uh to drive more people online. Uh so yeah, we've uh that's in progress. Um we've also got the July 17th concert in the Garden of

Eiglia is canceled. Just a note. Um and then music on Maine. All of those events have been doing so well. Um and September 6, 13th, and 27th, we've got Wildwood Farmers Market every Saturday. But yeah, lot. And then Pigglia's fall festival is also cancelled. Just a that's been a change from uh last month.

Yeah, Joe, you got a comment? Yeah, I just um I'm looking at the electro credit sign thing and I know that we're in the midst of having conversations about signage and and I am a having wrote most of the sign thing that we're talking about. I'm I'm a fan of talking about this stuff because it, you know, we have a couple semi I guess odd scenarios where we have businesses that are tucked back off of kind of the major highway and um I think I've brought this up before. Last summer I was down in Alabama outside of Birmingham and and they did a great job of having a highway that looked a lot like Highway 100 with bow walls where you would have literally no idea that anything was behind them with a nice simple sign that wasn't like obtrusive or anything that just said, "Hey, if you want to go see this, turn here." And then it literally looked like Chesterfield Valley behind these rows of trees. So my only it's not even a concern, it's just a suggestion on that corner where we've got you know Shnooks has shares assigned with Mobile on the run and perhaps this Electro credit union is going to do something with the other place. There's a lot of other businesses up there that are going to like we either need to figure out a way to direct people to a business complex rather than a specific name or we have to do I I just think we have to do a better job of figuring this out because I'm not opposed to doing it. I just think we're going to now have two sets of signs on two different sides of the road leading to the same place, which seems like it it this is kind of one of those things where I feel like we have we've had rules for a long time and they're and they're good rules, but also like it we're trying to jam square pegs into round holes all the time. I don't know why we aren't just looking at this and figuring this out in a real way as compared to saying maybe these guys will put a new another sign in over here and I guess it can look okay, but you can only see it from one side of the road. I am not

advocating for signs all over the place, but um this comes up frequently in these locations. And so I think we got to figure out the right way to do this. And rather than having anybody invest a great deal of money doing this and then we figure it out, I I would rather figure it out first. That's just my suggestion. I don't know how to do it. I'm happy to try to spend some time to figure it out, but I'm certain that there is a better way to do this that fits within the profile of how we want it to look. And I uh Go ahead. I was just going to say to confirm they have not submitted anything yet. This is just kind of reading the tea leaves, but we do have some time.

Uh mine's just a different subject. Is there an update on that brother's restaurant? What's going on or not going on there? With your permission, chair. Uh tell me so. Yep. Yes. Uh they are still working on that repair and September 1st is now the date. So, it's it that said, we did note this week um with them to get that property maintained. So, they they they can open on September 1st. We can't force them to open. We can force them to maintain the property. So, that was noted this week and we've made a couple we've made contact with them and they should be getting it cut. I'm all for home for business improvement projects, but I don't I don't even know that place has walls on the inside of it. So, I think I think September 1st might stretch might be a bit of a stretch.

That's what's been communicated. That said, it was originally u supposed to be in March, then it was end of summer, and now it's September 1st. Um, that said, they do have I I I do want want to communicate that they are funding I believe they're funding these improvements with the profits they're making from their location over in St. Peters. So, overall, I think they're slowly kind of building up to be able to open up the other location.

I'm super excited to have them and and I don't I'm really not I know I'm poking a little bit of fun at it, but I mean, getting a business up and going is difficult even in the best situation. and they've had certainly some unexpected hiccups, but I do think um with the history there and maybe the things that we can do as a city, like you know, I I'm I'm glad that we got them to take that coming soon sign down that had been up for 3 months. If they could also take the duct tape down that was holding that sign up on the windows, that would be a cool step. Um you know, just little things like that. I you know when you're trying to uh I think when you're trying to ingratiate yourself into a a community it's important to try to do that in a such a way where people aren't looking at it like what is this mess or whatever and then it opens up and as we have found and heard a lot about um you know our residents I guess rightfully so in some regard are very particular about certain things and so um you know it it helps them to be more successful if we can help educate them on that before we have a problem. Anyone else? All right. Then we will be moving on to uh section four here and that would be the continuation of the Y Wildwood business profile series status and I assume that is uh director Paula.

Yes. So our why Wildwood series has been very successful. It's a series again um highlighting why businesses choose Wildwood and why they keep choosing Wildwood. So since May 2025, we have profiled several businesses among them Wildwood Fitness Collective, Three French Hens, Wildwood YMCA, Piglia Nursery and Garden Center, The Porch and Wildwood, most recently Pickwolf Realy and others. And uh and so they have been shared very widely on social media and um you know when I first came on board the thing that I realized very quickly was one of the things that businesses really want is visibility and um this is a way to help that with that. Um so they've been sharing it and amplifying on their networks which again drive traffic to our site. So, we've seen record um digital engagement and engagement to our with new uh new followers and record engagement to our website. Um and always looking for new businesses to profile um across a range of industries. And the goal really is to celebrate the entrepreneurs and small businesses shaping our local economy and community. And each profile highlights a a business licensed in Wildwood that demonstrates a meaningful connection to the city through community impact, resilience, creativity, or innovation.

Okay. Yeah. So, I was just thinking about um just potential other ones going forward, but um I mean there's probably a lot of uh what we call legacy businesses too that might come up eventually. But I think maybe first things first, maybe some of the newer ones are nice to put in the spotlight just to help them off the ground a bit. Yes. Um I think diversity is a is both industry and time in Wildwood and yeah, age of diversity means a lot of different things. So always suggestions are always welcome. Great. Um okay, anyone comments on that?

No. Right. All right. Well, then we will move on to uh ready for action items. And um first one on that list is the final review and approval of the 2025 Wildwood Economic Development Survey. And uh I assume going back to Paula.

Yes. So the city has designed a an economic development survey um to collect community insight for future growth. um this survey. So, we know we we do a lot of surveys, but this is a new survey to build on the master plan survey. A few takeaways that emerge um from that survey is that residents want to protect Wildwood's rural character while enhancing access to local businesses and services. There's a strong interest in improving walkability, increasing dining and retail options, and supporting small businesses. and many residents report regularly leaving Wildwood to shop, dine or access services. So, this follow-up survey builds on that survey and it's about 20 questions which focuses specifically on economic development which the master plan survey didn't do and it's a crucial part of delivering on those priorities. Um, this survey is designed through a platform um that helps with mapping. So, GE using geospatial technology. It's survey 123. It's already been inputed and within this document, you can click on that link and it'll take you to the survey that's been created. Uh, it uses an interactive map to collect feedback feedback and location-based insights. So, the messaging that we are u suggesting is that this survey will help us uh show where improvements, projects, and priorities are most needed across the community. And by sharing their thoughts, people are really helping us make informed and datadriven decisions to shape Wildwood's future

is um part of that geospatial kind of position is are we we're going to have usable data then to kind of nail down people from what words are giving feedback and right we want to know what people are saying and where. Okay. So, you'll see in the section one um so one of the questions is what's your zip code um and ward and that is a way to kind of identify where people that where people are and then we ask about age group. We ask about um and what their connection to Wildwood is whether they live in Wildwood, work in Wildwood, own a business. So hopefully we'll be able to um break down these responses to to assess data that's going to be actually useful. Mr. President,

just interactive mapping tool that allows residents to search pretty much their address and get their ward number. Um that said, we'll have that link put on the actual survey itself. This isn't the one that's going to go on Survey Monkey. Exactly. So once they're on there, they'll have a click this link. And we would like to know the zip code too because it just helps file it down a little bit further. Sure. But we don't want to ask them for the direct address, but they would be able to access it and then be able to report what did they see when they searched their address. The hope would be to encourage them and worst comes to worse, they would just provide their zip code because it seems like that's tends to be what happens with surveys.

I mean that more or less that should so long as we can nail it down to geographics. I mean that's what we're trying to get um get to here. So, um, so I are we looking for a motion then to approve the implementation and get this rolling? Yeah, tonight the idea would be to approve the uh survey as as uh commented on tonight and as designed in the the memorandum tonight and then we would go back and go ahead and publish. We'd look to have it back in about a month or two. Okay.

Yes. Maybe some kind of question housing preferences. You know what the previous gentleman said in his public comments, we do have a need for starter homes. And then at the other age of life, we we need more villas, senior living opportunities that way. So maybe I don't know if it's time to inject anything this one, but for future surveys, you know, I think we can incorporate it. Um, yeah, I I'll think more about it. But I think it's a good point.

Would this be something just to clarify, Mr. Albert? Would this be asking the resident what they currently live in or what they want to see developed? See developed. Y I'd like to make a motion to approve the survey as written. So, not not with what Cliff has just indicated. Would that be a future survey then?

Well, unless I misunderstood, I thought what was said was that we could do that in a future survey. But if we want to include that, I'm certainly all for including that if the other committee members see fit. the department would have no objections to adding it to this survey. It it would be pretty simple to do. I mean, I would say try to uh include it then because I mean I I think that's viable data to capture and if it's not a cumbersome request, then I would say go with it. Okay.

So, I'll restate I'll restate it. I I make a motion to approve it as written with the addition of Cliff's statement. Okay, that's pretty fair enough. Seconded. Okay. Um I guess then I don't probably see any discussion on this. So um I I guess we'll take a vote. Um all those in approval for the motion as stated and seconded. I um any opposed?

Uh cl and any abstensions? So, the motion passes and we can go ahead and add that verbiage and get that thing uh published here um whenever it's ready to go.

Yes. So, um I would just encourage you guys with these questions like I'm I'm a big fan of getting data. Um I am concerned that the way some of these questions are phrased is going to provide us not great data. So, I would just I think getting some is better than getting none. But as we go forward with these things, I really really think we need to spend some serious time figuring out like what we actually are trying to do because some of this stuff is just asking for the wrong it's just it's just asking for the wrong response. Not that I want to gate, not that I'm saying I want to fix the response, but we're going to get the we're going to get feedback that is not probably going to be as helpful as we would hope. I think

do you think it would be worth pausing then to adjust some of the No, I mean I'm like I'm pretty confident that that's what's going to happen, but I'm not I'm not I'm not right all the time. So I mean I could be wrong. I think I think with with the way it is configured right now, you will get you will be able to pull some data out that will be valuable. I just don't like I don't think you're going to get as much valuable data as we would hope out of this. What's a data point that you would want to see?

Um, I mean some like for instance some some of these things, one of the questions that's in here and we've spent some time talking about it is the you know the fast food question I think it's like the which one it is that Tom section four.

Yeah. So section four. So drive-throughs are currently limited in Wildwood only allow and are only allowed in certain zoning districts. Should the city consider expanding, restricting, or maintaining current drive-through policies? That's a good question. But then, yes, allow for any business. That's not help. I mean, that doesn't even make sense. That that answer is great. Like, so yeah, but for specific businesses, so we already have that. We have specific businesses in Town Center. We havearmacies and banks and a couple restaurants. So, I just think some of the like construction of these um you know, most people are going to say I would assume most people are going to vote either no, don't allow any drive-throughs. We're going to get a handful of people like that because we always do, or yep, but only in designated areas, which is what we currently have. So, at that point, we are exactly where we stand.

Yeah. I mean, I I've I I don't know, Jim, you've been around this a lot longer than I have. I mean, I think that that's going to be the two get more yeses than nos is great, but I'm saying like what like the way that this is currently set up, you have three different yeses, a no and a not sure. So, we're not like I'm not really sure how somebody could be unsure about a drive about drive-throughs. You either are for them or against them. like or you don't care and at that point I think you would just be relatively for them because it doesn't make any difference. So I would just say like as we structure these things and we've done this on a couple other surveys too like we just need to make sure that we're really um like the the way in which these questions are answered the order in which they go out unless you randomize it in some fashion um it's important. And then like the same thing with some of the some of the signage questions like when you are when you read the messages that people are sending out about stuff like this there are there are very strong feelings in certain places and I I believe in a lot of these cases it's it's a limited amount of very strong feelings but they also are the loudest voices and those are the people that are significantly more inclined to answer something like this in a way that you know is strange. I mean I I know that when I go out even for our you know our election stuff when I go out and talk to people some people care about a whole lot of stuff and most people are like I don't know man whatever I don't care and I'm I guess I prefer I mean even if they don't like what I'm doing I'd prefer that they care about something rather than just sort of being apathetic about the whole process. So, I would just say in the future as we go through these, I I would I would work through this stuff because I mean even like number five, how would you describe Wildwood's current business

environment? If anybody answers the first two checks, the first two boxes, they don't have any idea what they were talking about and the rest of their survey should just be thrown out like that. That's kind of Yeah, that question though. I think that's a good question because it can pull that bias. it that specific question, but it only works if then we wait the answers the the rest of the way through. And so part of part of these surveys, like the stuff that we do even at with the council surveys that we send out, like they're weighted in very specific ways, not to weight one person against another, but you know, like when I'm, and I'm not picking on Chris, but like when Chris filled out his survey, he'd been a council member for like

a year.

Yeah. Not very long. When Ed Marshall fills out his his survey, he's been doing this for 20 years. So, while I appreciate everything Chris is adding to it, the weight of what Ed is saying just conceptually makes it's heavier because he understands whether I agree or disagree with his position. Like he know even with myself, I've been doing this for a few years, so I guess I kind of know more than Chris and you know, like I've shared a couple things. So, that's a little bit different. So, we just have to make sure whether it's the questions or the scoring or how we're looking at this that the data we give back isn't just like here's the answers because when you do that and you're just like hey these are this is the answers then all 16 of us that get this information will have 16 different perspectives on what that means

right I mean maybe it's the so of course survey is inherently flawed um and the ideal way to do it is to go knocking on doors and go to random random doors throughout very evenly throughout the city to get the data. Um so you know I think that it's worth having conversation about the best way to move forward whether it's working and tweaking the questions to make it um less biased or figuring out changing the approach and how we move forward.

Yeah. I mean I I I think getting talking to our citizens is a great thing. We went I mean I we did this with the wershed thing when we started that. Nobody people didn't even know what a watershed was. And now, you know, I've said this before, I have people come up to me in the grocery store. So, getting the word out is an important thing. even if it's not always exactly the way that we think. But when we're when we're making these things in terms of trying to create policy with this stuff, it's important to understand the feedback and and and where it is coming from because more times than not, the people that are sort of just diametrically opposed to something are significantly more interested in answering these things than somebody that is like, I think it's all great. They don't I mean if they think it's great, very rarely are they going to come pat us on the back. That doesn't happen all that much. So I would just I would just caution you guys when you do that. I mean we had this Tom I think you were new when we did the solar survey and um that solar survey or you know when we sent it out I had a guess at what the answer was going to be and the people that sent it out had a guess in the opposite direction and only one of us was correct on which answer which way that thing went. and it would have been obvious if you weren't trying to, you know, skew the responses in one way or the other. So, we've got to be careful about that stuff. But engaging our citizenry is is excellent. I'm all for it. I just let's make sure that we're putting this out there and scoring it in the right way.

Cliff, um, I was just going to ask, would it be more helpful if you asked what ward people were in? Are are half of our residents going to say, "I don't know what ward I'm in." A lot of the times when we do that, we we have to add in and it the question is, are they going to look at the the link? Um, we have that interactive mapping tool where someone can click the link and then put their address in and it'll say, "Oh, you're in W three." Um,

really knew where those answers were coming to per ward, it might influence things that you want to do or not do or look at. So, I'm I don't know if it's right or wrong. And I kind of maybe answered my own question by putting that in there, you know, because once you do some of this campaigning stuff, that becomes evident a lot. Oh, I'm in your water. Yeah. So, yeah. Okay. Thanks. In that case, I mean, I know we have a motion on the floor, chair, but do we want to maybe let this get a little massaging for a month and bring it back? I think that might be okay. I mean,

we I would need a vote on this motion and then we could bring it back. So, I mean, I I mean, we can take the month if we want. I I guess are we going to accomplish enough in terms of changing this thing substantively so that we could add some quantitative aspects to it and kind of change some of the the phrasing. But

I think you could change it and I mean not to interrupt Tom. I think you could change it and probably come up with like the scoring thing that I'm talking about and then maybe maybe the better way to do it I don't know if this would be I I don't mean to take over Chris. I'm sorry. Maybe the better way to do it would be to amend the motion to say conceptually we like this survey and we're going to make a couple tweaks. I don't personally know that we need to like I didn't know this. I didn't think this the last time. We don't need to go through each question. I think that's kind of not really our thing, but just like we get it, let's make a couple of these tweaks and then give a date to send this out. And so if the date is like it if the date is like September 15th or whatever it is, then between now and September 15th, let's get it to be in the best position it can be. And when it's September 15th, we send it out.

Yeah, that's maybe how I would suggest it. The idea was to have this included in the rendition of the Gazette. LinkedIn is a and um also have it on social media and our website. I would even do it as like a maybe a QR code at Celebrate Wildwood if we can do that. That would be put it on our put put it on on maybe if if it doesn't interrupt his uh direct his decorations on his float. Maybe the mayor can put it on his float as he goes through the raid. Something like that. So yeah, I mean maybe the date is whatever whatever celebrate wild is wild celebrate wild. Yeah.

Yeah. Good exposure then obviously. So Jason, I'm sorry I hijacked your motion. If you're cool with that, do you care about amending your motion? No worries. I am happy to amend my motion to include um I guess we'll just back up uh the edits that you discussed. Perfect. Okay, Cliff, you good with the change? All right. Does that work, Tom? Yep. Okay, that's fine.

I I think if we're gonna, you know, solicit response from the public, let's try and do it as best we can. and um get it in the best light there to get the most response from it because I mean every every chance to get this like you said I think data is better than no data and um might as well at least put our best foot forward. So um I guess that we will um we'll have a vote then to approve the uh amended uh motion. Uh can we get a second for the amendment and then a vote on that amendment? Oh, I think Oh, yeah. We I think the idea we don't have to it's he Jason's gonna amend the original motion

and Cliff's gonna second it. So, we just have the one. You're good with that, Col? You understand? Okay. So, then that's just the one thing. So then all in favor of the amended motion as it stands. I I Any oppose? Any abstensions? That motion passes. Then question related to that suggestion. Do do like um the leader and the West County News, do they do pre- stories about our Wildwood Days or is it usually after? West magazine usually does it after. Uh we they do a recap, but we actually do pay for an advertisement within the

say if there's any pre-advertising that QR code and the paper. I think the only the only concern with that is you're going to get people that aren't from Wildwood. Like unless we put a specific address factor in there, you're going to get the possibility. I mean, there could be people at the parade too or whatever, but there's a much higher propensity of people to do something when they are living here. Okay. We can have the boxes. Do you live in Wildwood? Do you not live in? And then just filter it out so you might have nothing to lose. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Let me get both sides of the coin. Um, yeah. I mean, if that's an option, I'm not opposed to it at all.

I think they can do we can reach out proactively so that we are ahead of it and communicate proactively so they can do preview. I think that'd be a good idea like this because what's um what's the body count we usually get to show up for cell right I don't have an exact number but it's definitely in thousands multiple thousands less than 10,000 more than it could be up to 5,000 okay every time I'm there it's hard to tell numbers but like literally very busy so

okay well um I guess we'll look into that then Um I mean we'll have two meetings prior to then. So I guess um if there's anything more to discuss on that next two months um we can certainly look back into if there's any sort of budgetary or anything. I doubt it but um that'd be fine to come back to. So um then we'll move on to the um next item the review of the economic development advisory group members. And this is

the city has put together an economic development advisory group um a flexible informal network of regional leaders who provide valuable insight to support Wildwood's long-term economic growth. Um this uh this this is a flexible group as I mentioned and they they bring in expertise in business innovation, workforce development and community engagement and will be consulted periodically for guidance on stren on trends. The members right now include uh Taylor Mazda with the Missouri Department of Economic Development, Daniel Card of Brands who is um very knowledgeable about Hispanic community engagement strategy um a rapidly growing sector of our population. Emily Emily Hemingway with Tech STL. Tara Mott with Ezri Steven White and with St. Louis Community College, Wildwood and Gayla uh Sabin uh with St. Louis Community College. Um so this group is um can evolve as times change, but they are a resource um to consult from time to time as needed. Um maybe a couple I mean I probably have a couple questions just um are any of these um folks currently residents of Wildwood?

Uh they I do not think so. I think they're um they are they work they do they work and are familiar with Wildwood and the surrounding area. Okay. Yeah. I mean I didn't really have a Steven White I don't know the answer if he lives in Wildwood. He may or or Gayla both with St. Louis Community College. Um, so I don't know the answer to that. I mean, I I didn't really have a um, you know, a desire to say, "Oh, yeah, they are." Or no, I was just curious just because I mean, obviously with the fairly diverse kind of backgrounds that they all bring to the table, it might even be good too to say that they're not from Wildwood,

right? And that was the the goal of this group is to be like outsiders almost, right? um because to bring a a collective like uh you know data informed decisions you don't know right u and so they know what's going on not just in Wildwood but regionally and nationally national trends so they're it's a group of talent who have a different perspective is there for any of them to ever come as a group or a couple representatives to present to the committee here absolutely I think that's totally on the I mean

it hasn't been right now it's uh just still in progress in terms of the structure but my view is it's very it's flexible to be respectful of their time but I think that we could we could totally invite them to do that months down the line yet but as they kind of get more um solidified in the roles and stuff and probably Scott can kind of uh drive that one but it might be I I I'd probably have a personal interest to at least hear what they have to Hey, um I mean if you know we're bringing them on to be consultants, I think getting their direct feedback would be useful. I know Steven White already has a presentation because I was at the a chamber lunch and he gave this a great presentation about the decision-m behind the expansion of their campus.

Oh, good. And why they're choosing health and tech and how that's going to impact the student population. So, I think I know there's already something that could be very informative. regional trends in general would be useful even if like they're not exactly something on our plate or that we're thinking about at the moment I think just getting you know what's going on around us I think that information would be useful anyone else have anything questions conversation points no okay all right there's I mean there's really no motion to that is there Tom

um if there last month there was an kind of the idea to invite these folks and and was to reach out to them um with the intent of having kind of an outsider perspective. These individuals do not have decision-making power just as a clear indication. Um they are just more so an advisory so you come back and interact with the committee but also uh provide that direct perspective. The idea tonight was to um get official approval on this group as an advisory group and if there's any questions though we could have that discussion here. So then do we need a motion to make to approve to the approval? Okay, that'd be correct. Anyone want to make that motion? Seconded by him. All those in favor of the motion, please say I. I.

Any opposed? Any abstensions? Right. Motion passes. Um, moving on. Not ready for action. No items. Uh, miscellaneous. Anyone want to bring anything up? We had one other item. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. Yes, we did. Um, yeah, of course. was uh thinking too fast here. Um so yeah, miscellaneous items here. This was going to I think a very an important topic of conversation given everything that's going on, not to mention some overarching things and um that's going to be Tom. Were you going to give the presentation? Do you? Um yeah. So if you want to take the moment here to kind of bring that topic up and then we can all listen and

of course. Thank you so much, Mr. Preston. Um tonight uh there is a memorandum and it's one from one of our uh board members here tonight. But along with that is our current policy for proceed uh procedures for the review and processing of um taxing incentives practically. And the idea was to potentially critique um and change a little bit of that incentive and uh that policy to incorporate some of the items that are included in the memorandum provided tonight. Uh overall what this these changes would encompass would be covering first of all one just cleanup item would be adding um if you look back at the old policy it doesn't specifically call out chapter 100s then call out SIDs. Um that said it does say any others that are allowed under Missouri state law. So it does have it covered. It would just be nice to have some of these newer and more utilized um districts that are used and just mechanisms from the state uh included in the actual policy itself. but more so getting to the meat and potatoes, having a kind of a scoring rubric if you will, uh along with our kind of outlining the procedure step by step. This would almost be included as part of those procedures and it would kind of give that that ranking classification for each individual project and then name what kind of projects we would want to see and certain thresholds that would have to be met to even have it reviewed by the the actual council itself. But couple of these um just to kind of really and council farmer please correct me if I'm wrong but I think some of the main criteria that would be added is the public benefit criteria which needs to have three checked and one's town center activation uh which brings housing brings activity into the town center commercial uses to Wildwoods Town Center infill developments that's redeveloping a site that's already uh kind of maybe fallen into disrepair but we want to see it improved. um sales or use tax generator. So if it's generating a decent amount of money, 250,000 annually, direct direct municipal revenues, whether that be from utility

sales or any other adjacent tax, even if it's something that goes to the county, we get 250 from it. Um job creation, if it's creating 20 full-time jobs, public use component, if it's offering a public facing benefit, they're adding maybe some park space, they're donating some land uh that's going to be then used for a park, then that could be counted towards it. actually has minimum of 3,000 square feet or 5% of the total size of the site. And then housing diversity asking is it expanding housing options aligned with Wildwood with strategic goals. Uh workforce housing which uh helps with some of our businesses that are having trouble um scaling up their businesses now and then also some neighborhood scale multifamily housing types which are like the town homes, the villas, etc. U that is one component. So, they had to meet three of those and then having also a fiscal impact component which over a 10-year period would have to generate some type of uh revenue for the city in the equal amount of 2 $2.5 million. Um that would be $250,000 per year. And that's something that could be discussed tonight, but more so just putting a number out there that we would expect to have some type of return if it's going to generate this investment. It's going to be something that would have to be estimated. You don't necessarily know. Um but it would kind of set a threshold or a goal and make sure that you know there is a monetary gain uh when you would have one of these considered in the future. But uh Mr. Farmer, I I wanted to make sure to give you some time to speak on this too. But that is really in a nutshell. It'd be taking the current procedures that we have on the books and reviewed earlier this year was for our transition, but um with the new council, but it would be adding a little bit more of a outline for what is eligible and what is not.

Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so we have had some a lot of conversations in different meetings about the chapter 100 request that's in front of us. We've had data points and all kinds of things. We've done a lot of stuff. And, you know, full full disclosure, I am I am I am having I have a great deal of difficulty currently in the situation that we're finding ourselves in with the chapter 100. Not because I think it's a bad tool, but because I am not a fan of the process that we have to go through to do it. So, in order to at least help me to put a framework around a process like I feel like a lot of the things that we do is we're making decisions without actually knowing how any of this stuff is going to work, how it should work, whatever. So, in talking to a bunch of different council members and getting an understanding of um some of the things I think that are important, like if we're making a decision about a tool like this, I a framework is helpful to understand what does any of this stuff mean because um I spent some time working with developers. I know how hard of a job that is. Um and developers can ask for whatever they want. That's how it works. It doesn't mean we have to give them all of it. Doesn't mean we have to give them any of it. Um but they ask and then we have to consider. So if we aren't putting out a framework ahead of time to help people understand you know this is what this should look like and then any project that's coming to us we can apply this type of math to it rather than you know I don't I don't like the fact that it has blue shutters or whatever whatever the decision is going to be. And so the idea with this is if we can in my mind was if we can come up with a framework and this is a pretty solid one and if I do say so myself then the question is we have a framework do we want to utilize this tool yes or no this isn't saying that we are going to grant chapter 100s to anybody or at all but it's to say this

is how we want to look at a a SID a chapter 100 anything these are the this is the framework and then does this apply and if it doesn't apply Okay, where does it fall? So, in the case of the project we're working on now, I purposefully didn't use it really as an example. I actually am not 100% sure where it would fall in terms of the tiers that are presented here. Um, there are some things that are going on that I think are important. One of the things that is in here and it's a com it's it's kind of where my biggest sense of heartburn is coming from this is um you know I have had many vocal conversations about I there is a there is a at least perceived conflict of interest in my view on some of this and so you know as a member of the city council I understand what our conflict of interest policy is and in my opinion that's also super vague. So all of these vague things means, you know, my definition of whether I have a conflict of interest or Jim's definition of whether he has a conflict of interest are two completely different things, and we need to probably set some of those things in a much more clear fashion.

You know, I'll just make a two comments, but I think the lawyers say there's none here, but it's a perception. Yeah. And and what the voters how it looks.

That's right. Now, the issue with chapter 100 that I have, I mean, if you read the Rockwood school letter, they actually sent a warning to us because um it's taken $2 million of out of away from them and they say that there are other chapter 100 developments going on in the school district. So in other words, money is that should be going to the school district is not going to the school district. And last week I read in the leader that the school district has a $17 million deficit and they're talking about a ballot issue. And um the it it takes money not only from the school district, but it will take money from your county parks, your roads and bridges, your museums, your zoo, uh St. Louis Community College, the special school district, all these services that Wildwood residents want. So, why would we go along with a chapter, excuse me, a chapter 11, which is a bad law. It's a tax loophole that's designed for developers. I know that. Who's fooling one another? Uh when you steal Roth from taxing districts, uh I just don't think that's our character, Wildwood, to to hey, we'll give you this, but these other taxing districts, other organizations lose their money.

So, I I I agree. And partly uh part of this framework came from having conversations with um with our colleague Mr. Marshall who dove into these numbers and figured some things out. So the way that the chapter 100 and this current case is being presented is certainly what the developer would like to have. That doesn't mean that we have to grant it in that way. So this framework allows us to say hey here's what we're going to do. There are there are other municipalities that have said we can wave the tax on the building materials if that's what you want, but we're not giving you a 10-year break or or whatever whatever it is. We wouldn't want so many entity depriving us of our taxes either. You know, if the rules were reversed,

we would not and I have I have been down to Jeff City to testify to that exact point. But I think the other the other issue that we run into is the surrounding, you know, the mayor brought up this point. Our surrounding municipalities are using this and so we can ride on our high horse all we want. The surrounding people are happy to take the interest away from us. And so to me, it's a question of, you know, my I love the rock. I'm a I am a product of the Rockwood School District. My kids are products of the Rockwood School District, but I can tell you the Rockwood School District does a lot of weird stuff with their money. So, I'm less I'm less concerned about that and more concerned about does this framework because here's the thing. This is the idea, Jim. Does this framework work? If it if we decide that it does and it will put it through the whole process, cool. Then, do we want to use this for a chapter 100? That's the next question. And then I would say, does this apply to this project? And I don't I I don't

Well, here's an example, current example of how it works. Uh Eureka passed a chapter 100 for an Aldi store and uh they were all excited and Eureka and they passed it and school district going to lose $40,000 a year for the next 20 years. And Eureka actually owns Aldi's for 20 years, which is bizarre anyway. But Aldi's um is a $50 billion corporation and they they took their profit over the school year. $40,000. You got a $50 billion corporation say, "Oh, we we want this $40,000." It's horrible. I think what it does to the schools.

So I agree with you there too. And there's a mechanism in here. Then no. So there's a mechanism in here cuz this is I thought a lot about these conversations. So you know I appreciate the work that our bond people did to come in here and they gave us numbers based on whatever the developers gave them and we're using numbers based on what Rockwood gave them. And you know, I've asked Tom and I don't know if we figured it out yet to go figure out how many students are in Rockwood Springs because it's not going to be any more over here. And I don't think it's anywhere close to the number that Rockwood thinks it might be, but it's not and they they say that.

So what this is saying in here is we as a city and we've asked this and our city attorney advis us, we can certainly ask. It doesn't mean that we're going to get it. is to say, "Hey, help us to understand is this, you know, helping your profit potential or is this helping somehow get this thing happening?" And what this is requiring is that they have to provide a proform to a third-party evaluator that is going to to answer that question specifically. Because while I am aware how difficult it is to develop things, I'm not necessarily in favor of just handing somebody $4 million because they did something difficult. If if it's worth doing, it's worth doing, right? And so th those exact things are in there for a reason to have a report provided to us that says, "Hey, this is what this is what they're saying." Because I'm with you. I think if the question that we're being presented with, which is what it seems like we're being presented with, is if we don't in this case specifically, if the city doesn't grant a chapter 100, this building is not going to be built. That's what they say. I don't know if that's real or not.

They Well, I've been on the council for over 13 years. Uh there's a bluff game that's played and uh latitude in 38 perfect example where we have to have 55 homes. It's it's well no we think you have too many and then no we're out of here but the council decided let's vote it and uh and so we voted it down and now they come back and they're reasonable.

I don't Yeah. And if somebody comes up here and tells you they got $50 million to build an apartment and they don't tell you how much money they're going to make in profits when the rent is probably $244,000 the way I compute it, they don't pay their rent. The renters will pay their rent. So when somebody says they got $50 million, I go, "Oh, here comes the bluff." Yeah.

And if they if they don't do it, fine. Uh we move on. That's that's how it's played. And and I'm I'm willing to say goodbye to it if but if they did all this work and they got this is the last minute. They could build that at any time they want to in the last minute. Oh, wait. We want these tax breaks. You know, let's see if we can get them. And uh and so that's why this framework allows us to say, hey, we are not comfortable we're not comfortable doing this at all or we're not comfortable doing it in this way. This is what we're comfortable with. And it allows us to get in my opinion significantly more valuable information back. I agree. I think the chap personally

we don't need that in a wildwood is all I'm saying. I think a chapter 100 is a ridiculous law. I mean and there's better incentives to give them. Sure. But this so this applies to all of these incentives, not just a chapter 100. So you know we're struggling and we see this with the sit over there like however that was configured and the things that are going on. We had our guest talk about the incredible rent levels that are happening in Town Center. I saw that when I tried to open something here. It's insanity. High high. I don't I love that. Singer's ice cream cone.

It's because they all they are doing is looking at a spreadsheet as to what the average income level is around here and how many people live here. And in mo in many cases, at least when I was doing it, so RL Jones took over the building up front where Starbucks is, that was a REIT that was owned by a people in Oregon that looked at a spreadsheet and says, "Well, this is how much it should be based on the spreadsheet." And I said, "I don't think you understand what this actually is." And they were like, "Well, the way that those function, like in some cases, it's better for them not to have anybody in it." Or like we had with the PNC situation where that building is, I don't know, Tom, how long's that place rented for? 10, 12 years. And there's nobody in it.

Yeah. And we actually have gotten some input recently that someone may be purchasing that section of the building. So that we might have an update, but it's been about 10 years.

What other one other thing we should keep in mind and Mr. Lee mentioned it in his report that uh we've never done this before and we could set a precedent and if you give it to one and we learned this uh years ago when they wanted to change the master plan. Don't mess with the master plan because if you do, you're going to have to give a the same favor to these developers. So, if you set a precedent, I'm not saying that you're going to get all these lawsuits and lose them, but you never know. A judge may say, uh, hey, you gave it to one, you're going to have to give it to the others. So, that's that's real critical, too, legally to be careful.

And that's what this is supposed to help. This is supposed to give us that is spreading like fires for 100. Now this is like a new thing. I didn't see it until uh this year. Yeah. So so so the framework this is designed to fit within the framework that we already have. So this isn't replacing what we've got. Okay.

It's enhancing it. But, you know, if we don't if we don't have, in my opinion, if we don't have a framework, then you have six 16 like we're talking about with the survey, you have 16 different people that can spin their answer however they want to spin it and make up whatever decision they feel like they want to make. And so, that is why I wrote it up and built it that way. And that's why at our next admin PW meeting along these lines, we're also going to put in place a a very real conflict of interest policy because while the attorneys have said, and I'm not one, but I haven't spoken to a single person who doesn't think that we have some concerns here. So ask that you will you will see it as the next admin meeting. So the idea, my idea with this, assuming you guys agree, is, you know, much like we've done with some of these other items of late, this is part one of a multi-part situation. And so we have a very real question that's coming to us and I, you know, depending on how John comes down on how this thing needs to shake out, we may have to make a decision on that beforehand. So this is written to not necessarily like reflect one thing or the other. But if we do this as a resolution, it's in my non-legal opinion, I think we can have this kind of happen in a very similar fashion where once we have a framework in place, then we can answer what's actually going on and get some of the vagueness that's going on cleared up because I I think I think most of I think most everybody would love to see more happening in Town Center. I think everybody is aware that there are problems here, but we have to do this the right way. And as Mr. Vunich always tells us we only have one chance to get this thing right. So in my opinion, some

of these things, this policy in particular, while it is affecting this, you know, we've had a SID for how long, Tom? 25 years in this town. 2006. Yeah.

Yeah. So, you know, some of these things that we're working on are in my mind way, way way, way overdue and they would just help make our conversations significantly more effective. So that's that's my hope. define the process and not come up with just you know a feeling. Um I think this puts kind of pencil to paper on it and um becomes not subjective necessarily that

I mean the subjectiveness is and I I'm with you Jim like it's like do we want to do this yes or no as a as a policy chapter 100 but I but with this part we should h I think we should have this whether we do that you know what I'm saying so we just going to keep this then as a topic of conversation for admin.

So the well so the idea would be and um I don't unless you want to step in Tom. So I think we need to have a recommendation to the city council. A motion to recommend this. The motion would be recommend that the city council adopt the city of Wildwood discretionary tax incentive policy framework as presented incorporate it into the city's current procedures of the review uh for the review and processing of requests for public funding assistance and apply it to all future discretionary development incentive requests. So, the idea would be unless you guys want to go in here and change some of this um to go as as it is presented. It's also got in here a thing where we're supposed to look at this every couple years and figure out did it work? Do we need to update it? All the things we've been doing on all this other stuff so it doesn't just sit on a book somewhere. Should we read?

Yeah, especially if we actually use some of these things, we should figure out if it works. Um, so that would be that would be the motion. And I since I wrote it, I'm not going to make a motion because that feels a little bit strange. Um, that feels like a conflict of interest to me and we may find that in the policy when we get to it at Edmond PW. I'll make the advice I'll make the I can make it so you can second it.

Okay. So, um, any discussion then? Um, all in favor of the motion as presented, please say I. I. I. Any opposed? Any abstensions? All right, motion passes then. Uh, hey Jason, I saw you light up. Did you Were you a four or against on that one? Oh, sorry. I was a four. My apologies, guys. I just I don't want you to have a bunch of background noise. I apologize. Yeah, no worries, man. You're good. Thank you, guys. Thanks, Mr.

All right. So, that was the I mean, obviously the major topic of conversation here for Miscellaneous. Did anyone else have anything else they wanted to cover here? one question and I know we I think we talked about this before, but um since we're doing you guys are doing the budget stuff and we're starting to get those things. I do just want to remind you that you that we probably should get some budget numbers on like either some studies or something that it's help helping us. You know, we had our guest here today and maybe I'll ask since you're here. I think I can do that unless Jason or unless Chris tells me I can't.

I think we're good. Um, so one of the things we've talked about is trying to get an understanding of uh, everybody's sort of in agreement that we need more people in town center, but we don't have a real clear idea of how many people that actually is. So where we have the reserve coming in, perhaps we have this new apartment building, we may have another thing happening coming back over here. The suggestion was, let's try to get a study of some kind or somebody that can help us to understand in order to make your town center run more effectively, you need 700 more people a day or what, like, however that works. Um, and so since this is a a realm you tend to fall into, I thought we'd get your thoughts.

Absolutely. So, I'll give you my gut reaction. This is a surprise question. So, you are more than welcome to spend a ton of money on a traffic mobility and commerce study for a town center. There's plenty of people that will take tens of thousands of dollars from you and make all kinds of assumptions. I think in my experience, you know, so the bulk of my experience is in Herman, Missouri and Led's Landing. And these are places that went from in 2019 from basically being empty to being chockful during COVID and then have kind of balanced out in between. Um downtown St. Lewis Washav is another great example of this and we we've kind of seen this this elsewhere. So you've got two two issues to think about in Wildwood. Most of Wildwood is a bedroom community that is not within walking distance of the town center. And you can do this exercise pretty easily. If you look at a map, you think how many how many minutes or how many miles is it and how many decisions do I have to make between my house and the town center and why would I go there? So, because it's a bedroom community, most of the most of the population in Wildwood is not here during the day or is not in a position to kind of pick up and go and kind of bandandy about the town center, which is which is somewhat of an issue. And if you think about the town center on a weekend, well, what am I doing here? Right? Ideally, in Wildwood, you would be getting on your bike, coming to the town center, doing an activity, doing lunch, going to the park or something like that. But we don't have a sufficient bike network or a trail network that is safe enough and robust enough for people to actually do that unless you live in Garden Valley um or maybe one or two other subdivisions that are kind of connected. So I I think it goes back and I'll offer my unsolicited feedback on the survey questions which which you made a great point which is I think we're asking the wrong question. The question is not necessarily how many people do we need to make the town center successful, but the question is what is about the town center that would make people want to come and what what

are the things will make people so like I live off u Baskin Farm off Shepard. So I have to make the decision to get in my car. I have to drive 10 minutes. I have to come here and I have to want to be here. We used to do a date night at Benadettos. But but then what? Right? If I want to go to Singers, I have to get back in my car. I have to go over to Singers, right? I can't remember the main street crearyy would used to be there. That's an extra trip. So when I think about development, I think about the town center. You got to be able to do three things, right? And that's there's a concept in I think it's dating psychology, but probably others. It's kind of that time dilation of activity. So if I go and I do I do cocktails, I do dinner, and I do dessert, my relative value for that experience is much higher than if I do all three of those things at the same place. Um, so in that sense, I I don't have an answer for you other than the more people who have access to the town center walking here, the better the performance will be. The other problem you have in Wildwood when it as it relates to the town center, this the whole kind of town center development from brothers all the way up to the old uh I guess the big chief really goes up there. You have old Manchester, which is in my view almost undevelopable. You have two religious facilities. you spend a bunch of money on the carveouts and traffic calming, but for what, right? Um, and I guess the question you're kind of probably saw me making faces about the chapter 100. The the problem here and the fundamental issue is that the cost of the cost of construction, the cost of financing, the cost of money, whether that's from limited partners or otherwise, makes developing particularly small commercial sites totally untenable, if you can even get the loan at all. So gone are the days of the sort of like big wig developer kind of grasping at the city. A lot of these these are but for questions and nobody is going to come build in Wildwood as a civic service so that we can all have an enjoyable town center. Um so to so to that effect the

the question then becomes how do you create housing andor walkable neighborhoods within again you just got to go to the town center plan in the new urbanism or if you haven't been to New Town St. Charles, spend an hour and go. How do you create that walkable infrastructure so that I can go to a friend's house who lives nearby? I can walk 5 minutes with the kids and not feel like everything is rushed. I can have a pedestrian experience, which in the town center probably means removing some parking and displacing it somewhere else. Um, so that you actually get the foot traffic. The other thing I would say from a business standpoint is gone are the days of existing purely on foot traffic. You're just not going to get it. Um, if you if you read the news about Wash AB or or LEDs Landing or any of the old commercial districts in the city that are struggling with this, it's because they're trying to go back to a pre-COVID mentality and even a 2008 mentality, which was everybody goes to an office, everybody's walking around, everybody's going out for 15, $20 lunches, and that's that's not where we're at. And I would say if I look at the next 18 to 24 months that really doesn't exist because people whether it's real or perceived are experiencing an economic decline. Wildwood less so right if we if we buy the idea that we have a K-shaped recovery out of CO Wildwood is less affected but that expenditure is probably going to be diminished. That's why you saw the salad restaurant next to the martial arts studio closed. That's after I've seen a lot of the other smaller retail concepts who presumably have a higher rent close. Um, and so it goes back to the question, you know, most of the town center right now is for sale. I kick around the idea all the time. Well, why don't I just raise the money and buy the town center to be candid because I don't want to have the conversation with the whole council about how I'm a greedy guy because the cost of money is going to be expensive and it's going to have to be a partnership with the city. You made the point that that Mr. Bunich says you only get one chance. We haven't even taken a

chance in 30 years. So, I would rather have a few mistakes and missteps than have what has become now a really mismatched plan with the town center. The town center plan does not call for a mosque and a church on Main Street, right? It calls for small retail that kind of looks like the houses that are conforming along there, but yet we've approved religious facilities on on Old Manchester in an area that's supposed to be a commercial district. Th this doesn't make sense. This part of the this part uh north on Main Street is supposed to be more dense housing just like it is in New Town, but we fight density every time somebody comes in.

So So this for me as a resident is very frustrating because we have a plan and every time somebody comes in and tries to do something that matches the plan that would benefit the town center, we fight it. Or we have up by brothers, we have a whole area that's slated for medical office retail. Nobody's going to come in and spend $25 million to build a three-story office, you know, class A office space in Wildwood. The market doesn't exist and you're never going to get the density in this area. Unless something crazy happens in Grey Summit, Washington and Eureka, it's never coming here. So, the idea that we're sort of holding this in perpetuity for an opportunity that may come soon, it doesn't exist. And I'll tell you, if you look at the demographics in St. Louis city and county, 10 years from now, we're going to be sitting there, well, where are all the people? the the issue you're going to have is all the pe all the folks that live out at on the threeacre plots for two million bucks. There's no market for it. The 45 year olds like me, we're going to be gone. We're going to go to the beef somewhere else. The young kids are going to be unless I inherit it, I can't buy it. So that those are the questions that I would be asking. And if you think about what's the density, I would say you need, you know, I I haven't done a plat map around here, but take take everything that has now been demanded by the city of the developers of the apartments to be pickle ball courts and sport courts or whatever. Um, that were town houses, turn that into town houses. take the entire space that is next to next to the uh what is now I think the mosque but that will be across from the church next to the bar on Manchester everything from there all the way up to where the the smaller houses are up here that should all be row houses and town houses with presumably a carriage house in the back that's actually how you're going to get density here because you'll have a young family or a parents in front in the back and you can do that in a It's aesthetically pleasing. It's the reason why Tower Grove has emerged. This is why people live in Lafayette Square. And I'm

not saying we need to do that. Um, but they don't need necessarily the micro homes that are behind the YMCA. We don't need 3acre lots. That that's just a market that doesn't exist. But if you listen to the mayor, that's the only projects that are coming here. Then I would tell you as a developer, I'm not going to go raise LP equity to spend 7 months trying to build here. I'll just go to St. Charles. I think we're very lucky that the group that's trying to build the apartments here has been patient enough and invested enough to want to make that happen. But like I said in my testimony, it's a cautionary tale to anybody else who's trying to do anything here. And the exe the other evidence of that is why are the sports facilities going in on older?

I I I get it. But but I I I listen I I totally get it. But if you look at the plan, if you look at the master plan for the Wildwood Town Center, it is meant to be a dense urban core amongst a rural neighborhood. It is that is I would encourage you to look at the urban planners. I would encourage you to look at the urban planners who put together the plan for all of the other new urbanist communities. This is not it. It's not. I get it. Bright Bright Leaf is a very dense subdivision.

No, it it's here. But what what's happening though, and we've talked about this a lot. I mean, we even talked about it with the two empty lots across the street. We changed over where they're putting the new point at Brightleaf that was supposed to be a medical facility. We changed that over. I mean, there are there are these sort of um legacy ideas like I it was crazy to me before Arl Jones bought it that to open an office over there cost more than my 20,000 foot office in Clayton. So, you know, there's just a disconnect what's going on. And I think, you know, when when we do have and that's part of the reason why, by the way, we're changing a lot of these things is to try to make these conversations more uh less feelings and more facts. And so, like I I think, you know, coming down Manchester, I think the row houses is a great idea. We could, you know, we can we should be pursuing and having a conversation with somebody to figure out if that's even

I already I already sorry to interrupt. I already checked with Mr. Vunich. It is conforming. It's conforming to the current use next door. But having been to enough coffee with the mayors and and council meetings, I wouldn't propose it because the outrage from folks who presumably don't even live in the town center would be it's too dense. It's going to diminish the quality of the schools. And the reality is the schools are losing enrollment. So, we're we're I I think to your point is that there's a disconnect happening in Wildwood between some of the legacy owners who bought distressed properties in the town center many years ago or bought them recently and had realized they can't command the rents. And this idea of Wildwood from the 1990s or 2000s when there was a lot of growth and the region was on an upswing and St. Charles hadn't taken out all of that population. But frankly, the problem now is that the entire region, there's no kids being born. There's the older population is dying off. People who are leaving the region, they're going to St. Charles or they're leaving entirely. And so while I think Chesterfield and Wildwood are can benefit greatly from attracting what remains of that population, when you look at the demographics 20, 30 years from now, which is how long some of these things take and it's taken us this long to get here, we're going to be in a really difficult position where unless something dramatically changes or the development attitude changes where we can actually take control, use the town center plan, look at what new urbanism has done in other places and generated tremendous tax value. Uh I think that's a totally different approach and I I totally recognize I don't want to see Wildwood turn into one, you know, limited lot line dense subdivision because that's not enjoyable at all and that's why people choose to live here, not St. Charles. Uh but to that same effect, the town was designed to be somewhat of a mix between what you see in Tower Grove or Lafayette Square stylistically and what you have right now. And and I

think that's where we're sort of at a crossroads at this point. And I think that's what makes it difficult as a developer because you see that approved use, but you know that you'll get the objection. Most of the density concerns come from the town center residents ward 8. Tons of the most of the other wards have no opinion on it at all or don't even know what's going on. So your statements previously were just not accurate. most of the concerns about density. Yeah, but those concerns though, Cliff, are coming from people that are living in Main Street Crossing.

Just any concerns like we had on latitude were confined to the town center ward. Yeah. Strictly people over off Old State, they don't know what anything like that's going on. So there's frequent concern about traffic density is supposed to be in ward eight you know you know certain traffic just got to work in the right area

and and and the distinction I think is is it's car traffic and commercial traffic that becomes the issue and and I think the the through line that I the distinction I'm probably not articulating that I'm making as an assumption is that the the density that you're talking about in a rowhouse house or a townhouse does not like if you had a townhouse right next door, you're not creating the same driving traffic as you do if you have to navigate through uh a dense subdivision. Like I I when I first moved here, we lived in Garden Valley and I can't get anywhere unless I navigate through the subdivision. So, I'm already in the car and I just go anyway. And and I think that's a that's a design question rather than a density question. Okay.

I hope that helps. Good discussion. Yeah, thank you so much. Good. I'm glad I mean Yeah, that right we are at that magic time of the evening. So, a second. All right. All in favor, please say I. I. All oppose. Obsence.