Village Board - Regular Meeting

All right, we're just get going here. So, I think the recording is started. Yes. Okay, we will then if we could all take some seats. Yep. Please. Hello. Yep. We're going to start. Get all quiet down a little bit. Okay. We will get our Thank you. Uh I will call to order the village board meeting of Monday, March 2nd. Um, can we please call the order? Uh, Aaron. Yes. Trustee Casper here. Trusty Saunders here. Trusty Deman here. Trustee Serban here. Trusty Hower here. Trusty Venhovven here.

And President Buckley here. Thank you. Uh, next on the agenda tonight is the consent agenda. Uh, we only have one item, the minutes of the regular meeting held February 16th. Any questions or comments? Otherwise, a move to approve. So moved. Thank you. Do I hear a second? Second. Thank you, Sam. Any further discussion? Hearing none. All those in favor say I. I. I opposed. Motion carries. Thank you. Moving on to the report of the village officers. Mr. village attorney. Nothing this week, Mr. President. Miss village manager.

Um, so just a reminder, we are continuing to monitor the weather. It does look like the temperatures are going to start to warm later this week. If we get a period where the forecast is showing 10 days of above freezing temps, both the low or the low temp um as well as no anticipated um snow, then we will do a kind a call for last breakout and we'll do a final pass throughout the village. So just be on the lookout out on social media, the website. We'll do an email, a newsletter blast as well when an announcement comes. And so just help us spread the word. We want a a good last pass to get those leaves off the street and the terraces. Mhm. That's all

uh village president's report. The only thing I have to report, it was mentioned in the last week's memo was uh Kelsey and I had the opportunity to speak to Congresswoman Moore. Um she invites us to speak once a year with her. Um, and it's oftentimes just kind of a check-in, a little bit of fluff in terms of, you know, what is the federal government doing for municipalities, etc., and what's going on in Wayfish Bay. Uh, this time it was pretty much dominated by the concept of trying to navigate a way to um obtain grant funding for lead service laterals. Um, every Congress person and senator gets, you know, earmarks and it would be there there are have been several Wisconsin communities over the years that have gotten lead service lateral grants and it would be nice if we were one of them. So, um, Kelsey and her staff are proceeding with applying for that and applying to U. Senator Baldwin as well because she's invited us to also ask. So with any luck maybe we'll have something to uh report in I don't know 6 months to 9 months to a year. Uh any other miscellaneous trustee reports? Once twice okay then we will move on to petitions and communications. Uh this is an opportunity for anyone in the audience to address the village board on any issue that is not on the current agenda. Is there anyone here for an item that is not on the current agenda?

[clears throat]

you. Yes, sir. If you'd like to step up to the uh podium and state your name and address. Jack Orchard, 622 East Carlile. I I heard Kelsey make a note of the the leaf thing. My question to the board, to Kelsey, to public works is have you learned anything from that experience because that week that week of uh Thanksgiving on Monday when they normally come and pick up le nobody came and I said they've got Thursday and Friday off for the holiday. I hope they've got people. I hope they've foreseen that the snowstorm has been predicted for a couple of days and it's coming and it's going to be big. I hope that they foreseen enough to put people on overtime before it hits. I know the reason given for not picking it up was you had garbage and recycles to pick up and so you that's what you focused on but you ended up afterwards I think having to put people on overtime to try to clean up the mess. So the expense was going to be there before or after. Why not do it before in the future? And frankly you're the last resort. You've got people that are out there, public works and Kelsey doing the work for you. But bottom [clears throat] line is you are the guys that ultimately can make it happen if you're I won't say a student enough if if you're aware enough. And so I'm asking did we learn anything from this so that next year it won't be an issue.

That's my thought. Yeah. Thank you. I'm just going to give you a one-word answer to that question. And the answer is yes. There had been a number of conversations about how we would handle things differently in the future. So, yes, that's great. We did have staff on overtime, but that would be a good place to know because nobody knows if you're not. Thanks. Any other uh any other comments from the public on an issue not on the current agenda?

Once going twice. All right, we will then move on to uh general business. Although, first of all, I just like to say uh welcome to everybody. It's always nice to have such a full group and it looks like we've got a whole bunch of um US government kids in in here today, right? Raise your hands if you're from US Gov. All right, we got a lot of students here. Excellent. All in the back rows. All in the back rows. We do we do have more chairs. If you want some pulled out, too, we can try to fit them in. You want chairs?

All right. So, we have two items on the agenda tonight. Uh general business number one is discussion action on ordinance 1923 amending municipal code 867 related to pickle ball at Cody Park. Um we this has been a long road. Um we have had over the last 5 years many public works meetings. We've had many village board meetings. We had one back in September where we uh tried to make some modifications to the schedule and uh ended up tableabling it. And now we've asked staff to analyze and compromise and speak to all the parties uh they can. And so I'm going to hand it over to Kelsey who will give us a little bit of a history and where we are with our compromise.

Yeah, absolutely. Um so as President Buckley stated, um for the last several years, neighbors of Cody Park have vocalized concerns about the noise related to pickle ball um in their homes. I do want to state that this discussion isn't unique to Whitefish Bay. It's not unique to Cody Park. In fact, it's happening throughout the country and as close as Fox Point with the town club um pickle ball courts. The courts at Cody Park are located less than 50 ft from the adjacent residential homes. Um and as many of you are aware, the noise that is generated from pickle ball is very unique. So, a a common comment that I heard in my discussions was their tennis courts. Pickle ball isn't that much louder. Um, pickle ball sound has been found by a lot of sound consultants, a lot of studies, planning association to be very different than tennis sounds and other recreational sounds such as children playing on a playground. Um, in 2025, following discussions at a lot of, um, committee as well as village board meetings, uh, staff did install sound barriers and hours were reduced slightly, um, to 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Uh, these measures have not resulted in significant uh, improvements for the nearby residents. And so they have asked us and asked the board to continue to look at this challenge. Um this last September, the village board considered further restrictions as President Buckley stated. Um and during those discussions, the item was tabled uh with direction to staff to work with both parties. Um truly the desire out of this process was in knowing that no one is going to be happy, right? There isn't what I told everyone I I spoke to is there's not seven votes on this board to elim eliminate pickle ball at Cody Park. There's not seven votes on this board to keep the hours exactly as they are. And so the goal was to try to bring the sides together and to get to a place that quite honestly no one liked um but

everybody could at least tolerate. Um and so that was that was the goal of my discussions. I met one-on-one with many players um that included afternoon players, morning players, um younger players, older players, um all sorts of people. I met with many of the neighbors as well and all in preparation of having this small working group meeting which was composed of both pickleball players as well as neighbors. Um during that meeting we talked about the feedback that I had heard from the players and the neighbors. Um the neighbors spoke to what was most important to them. Um which what I heard was days off. Uh players spoke about what was most important to them. um which what I heard was trying to make sure we're maximizing playing time that we're being considerate of all the different groups knowing that there's a diverse audience that utilize the courts um in that group um kind of landed on that initial compromise that was outlined in the memo which Anna if you could bring that up. Then following that meeting, all the the different parties were tasked with going back and talking to essentially their constituents, for lack of a better word, um and kind of collecting feedback on what was agreed upon. Um based on that feedback, the pickle ball players that were represented in the room came back with a modified um proposal which was outlined in the memo. I do want to state that one group that was not represented in that working group um that I I think is a little bit obvious when you look at the proposal is what I would say is like the early afternoon players. There's um a pretty consistent 1:00 group that plays. I did circle back um with a few of those players and I do want to at least speak on their behalf. I'm sure some of them are here as well. Just there were frustrations from that group feeling like the one:00 play time um was missed in that initial proposal. Um, so the pickle ball players came back with a proposal late last week which was then

shared with the neighbors. Um, and then the neighbors kind of countered with a different proposal that adjusted specifically the start time on Thursday and Saturday. Um, so starting at 10 instead of 9. Um, and then kind of defining more of those winter play hours. Originally the pickleball players had just said two hours per day. So then the neighbors had defined what they would like to see in terms of those two hours. Um, so that's where it sat on Friday. um when we had to put this memo out and then I know today the pickle ball players have been um kind of communicating with me as well as um the trustees I'm assuming as well uh with some concerns about wanting consistency in the winter hours and then um I believe there [clears throat] was one other modification that I could look up. Um, but I guess the overall arching point is I would say it would help everyone, especially the village board because this has been very confusing with the back and forth is if you comment on the neighbors counter and like what you see as being good or bad about that, what modifications you'd like to see because I fear that without kind of like a set point to talk around, it could get really difficult to follow what the public comments are. And so that's what the ordinance that was in the packet was written off of um was that kind of neighbors counter, but I will acknowledge I know that there's some recommended changes from the players that came out of it. Um another point that I want to raise is the point of enforcement. Um so enforcement was consistently heard. So that was from both from the players and the neighbors. Um there was concerns raised that the current hours are not being respected. Um and that we need to do a better job around that. um administratively it's not a good use of our police officers time um quite honestly nor do we have enough just because of shortages in that industry um to be monitoring those courts all the time and so the only solution I see to that um unless one's raised this evening which I'm interested

in hearing is to actually lock the courts outside of those playing hours so I did get pricing for that um to lock two of the gates which I think would be sufficient is $18,000 um in my recommendation did include um installing those um magnetic locks and um using surplus from 2025 to do that. Um for the first month as um individuals are adjusting to the playing hours, we will have our community service officers stop by at the end time just to kind of remind people about the hours and to make sure um that everybody's on the same page um to make sure those are getting those hours are being respected. Uh and then also it was recommended that we install additional signage. Um some of the thought was that people aren't respecting the hours because maybe especially the casual players um aren't aware of what the hours are and so we would be installing a lot more signage both inside the courts as well as outside um just to make sure that those hours are very clear um to everyone. So, um, and then I will also to just acknowledge I outlined at the very end of my memo a lot of other sound mitigation concepts that I talked with players and neighbors about that I researched. Um, those include quiet equipment. Um, I I did not hear a positive response from players about quiet equipment. Although, I will say I think it would have a pretty significant impact on sound. Um, but from an enforcement standpoint, if there's not a group mentality or willingness um to comply to that, I don't see a high level of success. Um, we could reduce the number of nets, which I know at least one individual may be proposing this evening. Um, that wouldn't take away the sound, but I think it would obviously reduce the frequency of the sound um and could be explored further. A reservation system, um, specifically Bayside has seen a lot of success with a reservation system. Um, I talked to several players about that. The concern was that they Clo Park is seen as being very unique

and special and that it does allow drop in play. There is a lot of community around the play at Clo Park. And the concern with the reservation system is that that it wouldn't be the same atmosphere that they all um love. And so I didn't see I didn't hear a lot of support for that concept. um court ambassadors could be used to help um with any of the voluntary enforcement around these other measures. Um prohibiting amplified music was discussed. And then I did explore, this is a very common question I get. I did explore a lot of alternative court locations. In fact, I talked with a pickle ball sound consultant. The same firm was utilized in the town club case. I have not found a viable location. I'm not saying one doesn't exist, but I I think it's unlikely. Um, at this point we're going to find one. Um, so we can continue to look. We could hire someone to look. Um, but I I don't think right now I have not found a location that would meet the setback requirements um to be able to move the courts and not be concerned about noise. Um uh then the last um point I'll make is that for implementation I'm recommending beginning May 1st and that's so that we can install the um magnetic locks, get the adequate signage up. Um we do have to adjust the working hours of the cso officer um to be able to assist with that enforcement. And so May 1st would be, I think, a good target date so that way we all start, you know, on a positive note with everybody being on the same page um for how to proceed forward.

Okay, [laughter] that was a lot of information, but

so a lot of work has been done over the last um several months and um we're going to do something a little bit different tonight. Usually we have like a board discussion and then do public comment. Tonight, I think I'd like to introduce public comment right up front because I'm guessing a lot of you have pro you're probably here because you've read the packet. You've read the um proposals and have some comments and that's why you're here. So, um the the podium is there. We kind of have an on deck circle there. It would be wonderful if you were to sign in with your name and address so that we know um who you are and we can get your name and and comments in the record. Um, one thing I would like to say though is we've had lots of meetings on this. We've gotten lots of emails. We've gotten we've had lots of meetings with with various parties and whatnot. And so what I would what I would say is that we we know a lot of things up here. There's there's seven people here who absolutely know that pickle ball is a great sport. Um, we we know that it's it's a healthy thing to do. Um, we know it's great for seniors. We know it's great for youth. it's, you know, an all ages kind of sport. Uh, and that we know that Cody, uh, has is a great park and has avid fans who love playing at all sort all different times. Um, and so the reason I'm mentioning that is that when you come up to speak at the podium, please tell us some stuff that we don't know. You know, like things about the proposals that you're interested in, um, interested in changing, interested in tweaking, things that work for you or don't work for you. Um, I'm also, you might have noticed up here on the screen there's a there's a two-minute timer. And that is because we kind of anticipated a whole lot of people here tonight. And so, in order to move through as many comments as we can, um, we have a two-minute timer. I'm I'm not going to, you know, tackle you if you're 2 minutes and 1 second over. But if we could keep our our comments brief, so if anybody would like to come up to the

podium. My goodness. Here we go. Okay. came to BAM if you can. Yeah, just

and uh I live on 4830 Woodbury. And my question, my comment is about the total amount of nets um that we can have out there. I know you're going to limit the time that we can play, but I have a special needs child. I want to teach her pickle ball. If you only give us two courts, then there's no way I can teach her. There's nowhere else I can play with her or teach her how to play. Having four courts there, at least I can have one court or somebody else can have a court, but two courts by ourselves is just not enough for everybody. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Did you get her name properly?

I'm sorry. If you could repeat your first repeat. Uh it's cam 2 cm tu. Thank you. And just a point of clarification, the proposal as it the staff recommendation includes keeping in the same number of courts. So it' still be four courts. Yep. My name is Just pause for just a second. Well, why don't you here? Why don't you relation? Oh, in relation. All right, I'll just take it and you go ahead, sir. Thank you.

My name is Paul Smith and I live at 4785 North Lake Drive. Uh, first I'd like to thank Kelsey. She's been very helpful in this process. uh she hasn't won a lot of friends. Uh but uh she's kept the ball moving and I think uh we've moved a lot closer than what we were uh when we were in September. Um we had a chance to meet with the neighbors and I'd like to remind my pickleball friends that neighbors are reasonable people. Uh they have legitimate complaints and we're working hard to find a solution which is good for the players, for the community as well as for the neighbors. Um, I have I've handed or it's been handed out to you. On the left is the proposed ordinance. On the right is my proposed change. Very minor changes in the summer hours. It's very confusing to people that we have two days with no pickle ball. We have some days that start at 9:00 and some days that start at 10:00. My recommendation is to start in the summer every day at 9:15. So, we're moving back the starting time 15 minutes. It has a minimal effect on the total hours. The proposal that I'm presenting as well as the proposal that you have is reducing over 50% of the hours when pickle ball can be played. So we're talking about moving back just a little bit have consistent. It's otherwise it's going to be very very difficult for people to know when to play. The other recommendation that I have is for the non uh summer months. Um during that time period, we have inclement weather, we have wind, we have snow, we have ice. Many days people aren't playing at all. So to restrict it um to a few days is not uh it really reduces the number of days that can be played. Right now the restrictions that you're talking about eliminate about over 80% of the time. Um, so I would suggest that the

weekend or excuse me, the winter time start at 11:00 every day and you keep the existing days or existing closing times that you've had as well as that you allow six days a week because of so many days that can't be played. Um, I'd like to talk just a little bit about enforcement. Uh, I think the gates why nobody likes the idea, I think it's the best solution. uh enforcement has been a problem and I think the community service people are going to have to uh be more involved with it just not on a short-term basis. I'm not the smartest guy in the world but if you have a button that you can push to let people in that people that might let people in and people can also put something to prevent the gate from closing. So the neighbors are not going to be happy if there is an enforcement. They have not been happy with the pickle ball players, but in conversations with them, they have not been happy with you either because of the lack of enforcement. So, I'm asking for a minor tweak. Uh, and I hope you will consider that.

Thanks. Next, public comments.

This is not a comment related directly to I'm sorry. My name is Susan Swedler. I live at 4640 North Oakland. Um this is uh addressing a comment from the September meeting. Um uh at that meeting it was mentioned that pickle ball noise causes mental health issues. Uh when I asked for evidence for such a claim, I was sent a non-perreviewed study from the Acoustical Society of America. I'm not going to contradict anyone saying that pickle ball noise doesn't bother neighbors. I know it does that. But to claim that the sound of pickle ball causes mental health problems, there just really isn't that science at this time. Thank you.

Any other people like one more? You can state your name and address.

Richard Ross. I'm uh at 5335 North Diversity Boulevard. Um, I've I've written uh most of you at some length on various reasons why I think pickle ball should stay as it is or stay as a uh opportunity for people inside of the inside of the bay. Um, and and it's not going to be anything new. I'm going to support, you know, I know Paul and uh Kelsey and others have worked pretty hard on this compromised solution. My my main comment I want to make is when we talk about we've talked to sound consultants, we've done this. we haven't done the work which is do the survey. Um I actually did a survey around the entire facility um before and after we put the sound curtains in. I did decel readings at the fences. I did decel readings at the track. I did them along the streets. And I've got you know measurements all the way around this facility. And the the the interesting thing is we're we're implementing a policy that isn't based on any science at this point. It doesn't tell you whether it's going to be low enough sound, high enough sound, not not the right place. The curtains actually did a pretty good job of dropping about 10 dB on the on the noise uh uh of the pickle ball. So, you know, I I'm an engineer by training and you know, the right thing is you you go out and you do the measurements and then you see what things you implement. We could go in, we could tear up the track along that side and put our baba in there. that would probably drop another 20 dB on the sound and make it virtually uh quiet. But we haven't done any of that work to look at whether there are other other things that we could do that a sound engineer would suggest are are possibilities. We pointed to a number of studies that say you should be 500 feet, 100 feet, 200 feet. If you read those studies and actually look at what they talk about, the 500 foot one that gets thrown out all the time is based on that you're in

a new build in a new place, certainly not White Fish Bay, and you're going to put in a court, and you're not going to put in any mitigation between that court and the houses. And then they say, "Yeah, 500 ft with concrete, you bet. 100 feet with arbiva or some sort of noise cancellation feet is a better solution or a solution for denser areas and many of those talk about even closer and other things you can do that would mitigate some of the noadates. So that's the one thing I'll point out that I think we haven't considered. Uh I you know I'm certainly an advocate for pickle ball and uh wish we could see it stay as it is in the bay today. Uh, I understand it's probably not going to be the result at this time. Any questions for me?

Thank you. Although Kelsey will Yeah, I appreciate your comments and I'm interested in your sound readings if you want to send them. It sounds like we are similar though. Um, so our sound read ratings showed 77 dB prior to the installation of the sound curtain, 66 after. So, right where it sounds like similar to where you were at 10 dB. 7 where um I never got above 60 at the sides at the property line. Okay. Um

but well but we could read them because obviously with sound you know when you take the measurements all sorts of things could be different but I agree the sound curtain it seems dropped at about 10 dB which is very noticeable when it comes to sound. I did reach out to a very reputable sound consulting firm um to consider a sound study. What I was advised from that firm is that within a 100 feet mitigating sound through like built environment without utilizing sound quiet equipment is very difficult to paddles and balls. Um so the the challenge is they are saying look for alternative locations. Um so I guess yes I did reach out to do a study. The board could choose to spend $10 to $20,000 on a study. Um, but what they told me just in honest feedback is that there's no there's nothing you're going to install that will likely get the decibb to be to allow the play to continue as it is without complaints from the neighbor.

So, I went through all the, you know, ordinances that I could find for White Fish Bay, and there's only one place that um noise is uh mentioned in White Fish Bay, and that's a 70dB at the fence line level for um sound or for generators running on the property. Um so so we're implementing a a sound restriction without any sound um ordinances on the book that is that kind of the rating on this it to me this is more of a a it's a setback consideration right so we have zoning codes that regulate setbacks for everything um and that's really what this discussion is more about is what's the appropriate distance to a property line for this use.

It's based on sound. Mhm. [clears throat] It's based on compatibility with neighboring properties and sound is a consideration in that. Yeah. Thank you. Name and address.

Hi, good evening. Carolyn Nory, 114 West Lake View. I've lived in the village going on 37 years now. Um, so I'm addressing the sound barriers actually. It they've been installed on a portion I'm just question is why if the sound berries to truly work wouldn't they be all surrounding um and then do a study after that and if they are doing an adequate job would double do a better job pretty simple like you know but they're only on a portion of the court so the other two ends are still open and to me sound is the sound's going out. So you cannot have a fully protected sound barrier enclosure if it is not enclosed, right? I mean that's just a simple observation.

I will about how we got barriers. You were me. Okay. I think that would make a huge difference instead of spending $18,000 on locks to Sure. spend the money. Yeah, that would help with the sound.

Yeah, every and we should limit the back and forth, but some questions it's like it's helpful to answer. So, in the Fox Town case that is I'll I'll say from a setback standpoint is very similar. They did do a full sound study where they recommended actually a 12- foot barrier around the entire courts and then also found that in order for the courts to be at what's considered a good neighbor level, they would also have to use quiet equipment. So, I think that's a good rule of thumb. Like, yes, I do think if we installed barriers around the entire perimeter of the courts, I think they would recommend 12 ft, which would require the installation of new fencing. Um, but I still think that in order to reach that measure, likely what would be requested is quiet equipment. And what I heard from players was a lot of concern about using quiet equipment.

Um, we did try using there's quiet balls, but it just it's not a pickle ball and it makes different play. There are [snorts] sound um I don't know what the proper term is of paddles and I know there are several people that have bought them. I would invest. I have a feeling there would be others that would great be willing to and it does really limit the sound of that fall. Yep. Comp. But I I think the two barriers we have right now would be it just would be so helpful if we had four and then Rich could, you know, go and do more sound testing too. Whoever.

Just to comment on the on the sound barriers. Um, we were, I guess, lucky enough to purchase those from Shwood. Um, Shwood bought them, I don't know how many years ago and put them up for a few years and then decided for their reasons to not install them anymore. And we made them an offer to purchase them at a highly discounted rate. Um, I I if I remember, I think it was $5,000 for what we got, which was basically, you know, $25,000 worth of curtains for a fraction of that amount. Okay. Um, and then of course we put them where we, you know, right in the location that it was closest to neighbors. Um, you're not wrong.

Um, if we could come up with funds to enclose the whole thing, it would help. Would it would it help the neighbors to the north? Probably not. Um, because that, you know, sound is already being absorbed by the mats on the I'm sorry, the neighbors to the north. Um, so without quiet pickle ball paddles and and balls, it uh it it wouldn't get us to where we need to go. But thank you. Thank you. Hello.

My name is Amy Westerstrip. I live at 2011 West Devon. Um, I've been a resident for 26 years of Whitefish Bay. Um, 2011 West Devon is on the uh I over by Water Tower Park. So, um I think I can speak for people that live near uh developments that didn't exist when we bought our our house. So, um I'm very cognizant of of development and noise and parking issues and everything that uh community building uh you know can create. Um I play uh at Cody quite often. My issues I have a couple issues. One I I I believe I was in the back so I didn't hear it clearly. Is it $18,000 for locks? Mhm.

Okay. That seems like a lot of money considering we bought the sound equipment at a discounted or the sound barrier equipment for $5,000 at a discounted rate. So, I'm wondering where the $18,000 would come from. But, additionally, the current curtains that are up there, um, I would say threequarters of the time are falling down. They don't stay up. So, that would need to be maybe reinvested. I agree that they could be extended around the court. I was always curious when there was such a sound issue why all of the um uh hedge rows and everything were taken out because that does absorb sound. They were completely removed and not replaced. And then um again the curtains don't stay up. So I'm a little weary of putting a lock system on on the courts because I'm not convinced that the locks would actually continuously work. Um, like somebody previously said, they could be tampered with very easily, not knowing the me mechanisms of those locks. Um, I don't want to be locked into the court. That's for sure. And and it it sounds funny, but kids play in those in those courts. Um, this isn't just an adult group of retirees. This is families. These are children that play there, too. I would not be comfortable going, "Yeah, go play in a locked enclosure." Trust it'll open. Um, I just wouldn't. So, I think that's just something we need to consider. Um, what are the safeguards regarding those locks? Um, additionally, I do have a problem with I don't have a problem with the limited hours, but I do have a problem with the limited days. Um, I work uh for a a large global firm. I travel a lot. I can't, you know, just kind of come and go. I like to play there on the weekends with my family and with my friends. And I don't want to be told that I can't go and use a public park, the part of the park that I use on a Sunday. I I just don't think that's

fair. And I don't know why Wednesday and Sunday were picked. They seem rather arbitrary. Um but I think, you know, there's a whole musical called Sunday in the Park. And I think we should be able to enjoy time in the park on Sundays. Weekends are, you know, are very, very important to me. That's when I spend time with my family and friends, and I don't want it to be limited to Sunday. I don't have a problem with limiting the hours of play. Um I understand the noise. I I absolutely do. I think that um you know I appreciate all the work the board's done and all the work that everybody has done to work together to try to find a solution, but I do not um agree with limiting the days that we can play. But please, if you could report back on the exact locking mechanism, I think that can might prevent more problems. I just don't think we've tried enough of the sound uh reduction things to say, "Nope, we have to lock we have to lock the courts." Uh there are other people that play tennis on those courts as well. That's one thing that needs to be considered. I still play tennis on those courts. I don't want you to tell me I can't play tennis either. So, if you lock the courts, I can't play tennis there. So, consider it's, you know, other other court or other net sports that are played there as well. So, thanks.

Thank you. Uh, next we do kind of have an on- deck circle over there. Oh, that's up. No, no. If you need to hand something out, come on up. I just wanted to remind people you can always stand in the Thank you.

Thank you. Why don't you give me the rest and I'll pass them off. Thank you. And then you can start your comments. You can state your name and address. Sure. Uh my name is Mike Perriedman. I live at 6256 North Bay Ridge and I am a pickle ball player. And so I understand the pros and cons and we don't have to go through that.

Um and so one is how do you reach a compromise and what is a compromise in this situation? And so what I'd look at is is I'm an accountant, so I look at numbers a little bit. And so if you look at the numbers, there's probably four or five families that are really directly affected. There's no question about that. And there's probably another 25 families within 500 ft. And I've walked that last time. And can you hear the sound 500t away? You can, but it's not really that loud. And when I Googled it there, I think there were over 5,000 family households in White Fishb. So what we're talking about directly affected is way way way less than 1%. If you include everybody in a 500 foot radius, it's less than 1%. So the 1% the question is compromise. How much compromise do you have for 1%. The other is the hours. So I simply took uh the total number of hours during this period and 12 hours a day. So there were 2016 hours that are available right now under the original proposal. The number comes down to 876 hours. So basically it's not splitting the baby in half. It's basically the small number of people are getting a 60% reduction of the hours. So what I handed out was I think a list very very reasonable. I did not address the hours outside the time range of May to October 15th, but essentially you can see the original proposal, the suggested ordinance proposal, which are basically the close neighbors. And then the only suggestion I made is to capture two more hours. So everything is identical to the suggested that what the neighbors wanted other than going from 10 hour starting at 10 o'clock on Thursday and Saturday

to start at 9 because that makes a huge difference starting at 9 versus 10 because realistically if I were going to play during the week I still work a little bit 10:00's too late where if I start at 9 I can be there at 9 to 10:30 10:30 11 go into work and have a full day. So at a minimum I think the last to go two more hours is pretty reasonable. And then uh I didn't address the hours on the off times. What I would say there is um instead of having all the time in the middle of the day or late to have one or two days if possible to start at 9:00 maybe to 11:00. Um, and I think that's way way way more of a compromise considering the numbers of people that are directly affected versus the people that either are really pro pickle ball or not affected at all. Thank you.

Thank you. Um, any more comments? All right. Paul

Jack Orchard still at 622 East Carile Avenue [laughter] 43 years. Um I'll tell you something you don't know those those barriers you got were put up about seven years six seven years ago because of one individual lived across the street and we were grossed [clears throat] out that they spent $18,000. They told us not 23 that they would throw that money away from one guy. Guess what? He no longer lives there. That's why you were able to buy him because nobody's complaining. That's what I The [clears throat] whole point on this is it's subjectivity. [snorts] People that have sensitive ears, you don't know if it if they're overly sensitive because you haven't been over there to hear it.

[clears throat]

yet you're going to make what basically is a subjective determination that they should be compensated. By the way, I heard it was only three people, two families that are right next and one family across that came to the meeting where two picklers came to. They didn't represent all of us. They represented themselves. They were not part of a group that we said go talk to you. So, you really haven't heard from a lot of people here. Anyway, I propose this morning to Kelsey um plan B. And plan B says, "Let's go back to what we started with 7 years, 8 years ago. Two courts, the tennis courts, get rid of movable nets completely. It reduces the sound 50%. If that's not significant, I don't know [clears throat] what is. The subjective here now has 50% less that they're subjected to. And two of the people of the five that I understand were complaining live across on Lake Drive and they supposedly propose that and would be happy with that. So you're down to three people that we're pairing off against hundreds and people like who's here Ty they left

and people that want to bring their families [clears throat] Amy want to bring their families want to bring their sorry

bring their families there on Sunday. I have grandkids do not live here. They come out from the coast and when they're here we like to play pickle ball and I've got to arrange it now around a convoluted schedule that has different times. Lastly, I spent 24 years in the Coast Guard. Four of those or two of those I spent writing regulations in the Federal Register for public or boating safety, mariners, uh licensing, vessel inspections and all that stuff. We had a simple rule in the Coast Guard. Kiss, keep it simple, stupid. So that everybody can understand it. Don't make it convoluted. That people that have to go and and look up on the internet, what time can I play today? You had more than two minutes, buddy.

Well, look, you he doesn't like this. He did. He came into my house like yesterday and yelled at me, and he's a friend, but you went over your two minutes, too, buddy. Okay. Okay. All right. I think it's wrong to ignore the public at large, but that is three people.

Okay. Um, yes, sir. Steve, [clears throat] my name is Steve Capus. I live at 596 to North Lake Drive. I guess I'm one of the evil empire three people. So, I'm the David here against Goliath. And I would just like to go through a couple points. Um, the neighbors feel that this is a a significant quality of life issue and truth be known, we would like pickle ball to be gone completely. That would be the simplest issue. You want to make it simple, we'll make it simple and just make make it go away completely. Um, this is a national, as Kelsey recommend uh talked about, it's a national problem. It's not just a white fish bay problem. Multiple municipalities and cities have banned pickle ball alto together because of this. There's been multiple lawsuits regarding this. And um I don't think you can just say, well, it's only three people, so we can do whatever we want those three people.

Well, that's what you said. That's what you said. Um there's the research as Kelsey alluded to is suggested that you cannot mitigate the sound less than 100 ft from the wall. Um and so what is a sound? If you want some of the numbers um most people say that 70 dB is considered too loud for in a neighborhood residential area. Typically a single court for pickle ball is 70. So right there you're over the limit. You start adding courts and adding other people and you're going to be over that limit. For reference, how how loud is is a dog a barking dog? That's 80 to 90. I don't know how many of you people would want a dark a dog barking at next to your house 40 hours a week. You probably wouldn't put up with it very long. Probably be calling the police.

You wouldn't call the police.

Can we? So a tennis court the um pickle ball tennis courts are if you look at what the sound is at a tennis court it's 40 dB. So it's significantly less than pickle ball. So don't let anybody tell you pickle ball and tennis are exactly the same. They are not. There are a wide variety of concerns. I know someone um suggested there are no medical concerns. I can assure you that there is a lot of literature out there suggesting there are. Um, and here's what I would say that the neighbors have have noticed over the years. The pickle ball affects sleep. We have one of the neighbors who's a um pediatric surgeon. She will sometimes be up all night working, come home and try to go to bed, go to sleep. She can't sleep. She has two teenage daughters. Uh she feels it's very important that they get to sleep in in the morning. They can't sleep because we hear this noise inside our house. This just isn't in our yard. It's in our house. And we had a um house sitter come when we were away for a while and he's [clears throat] a student at MA at UWM and he came home and he says, "How do you put up with this noise in your house? I can't study when I'm in the in the in the downstairs. Regarding the sound barriers, they may work coming straight at us, but they don't work going up the second floor. So, if I have my grand hopefully, I'm going to have a new granddaughter here in a couple months and we have her up upstairs trying to take a nap. She won't be able to do it because the sound goes right over the sound barriers into our house. So, the other thing that I would like to say, it has made our backyard almost

unusable when it when it's noisy. You can't really have people over and you have a, you know, sit down and have a conversation because it's just constant. You'll hear it constant. I know some people put up porches. They put out outside venues and they've basically rendered it unuse useless. I do agree that the enforcement is a big issue. Um, one would think that we're all adults and that we could read the signs and you know, and to be honest, it just never happens. You know, last last year it was till 9:15 until it got dark enough that people had to leave, they would be there. The other thing that I'm somewhat uh miffed about is some of the comments that I see on social media about us. Um why don't we just buy you some earplugs and then we won't have a problem. And that's not very respectful as far as I'm concerned. Um if they don't turn like the noise, just have them turn down their hearing aid. I don't know who said it, but somebody said it. I don't have a hearing aid. One of the best ones I said was, "He must be a liberal." I don't know what that has to do with anything, but I I'm frankly a little bit tired of some of these comments and this idea that we are, you know, it's we're less than 1% or I don't care what percent you are. this we we bought these houses way before pickle ball was there and we deserve some peace and quiet. Tennis was not a problem. Playground's not a problem. Pickle ball is a problem. So

if the if the village feels that they want to be in the pickle ball business, um then I think we need to have some significant reduction of the hours. I think it would be nice if we can find a place that's 300 to 500 feet away. And I realize that that's going to be very difficult. And I also would like to uh comment that Kelsey's been really good about trying to be very fair in this whole situation. I appreciate that. Um I also feel that if we're going to do these hours and that not we would like I'd like to see the noise level go down below 50 to 60 routinely. I think you're going to have a hard time doing that unless you use the quiet balls and all that sort of thing. But I think that's only fair to us. I don't think we should have to put up with 70 plus decimals, 40 hours a week, which is what this proposal is right now. It's like 84 hours a week, something like that. So, I know you don't nobody likes me here because you know this is I'm cutting into your uh activity, but there are other places to play pickle ball. You go to JCC, you could buy a membership, you could do something. Doesn't have to be right next to my my house. Um, and unless you're willing to have a pickle ball court 25 ft from your house, you should probably think twice about having it next to my house. So that's it. Thank you. Thanks.

Any other public comments? Looks like we have some US government students who have had enough. [laughter] Yeah. Um you state your name and address.

Just uh it's very interesting. It's definitely more interesting than I expected. Um but I'll say my name first. I'm Tyler Emery. I live at 4677 North Wilshshire Show Road. Um, and I've been I've been listening pretty intently right now. Um, and I'm personally not this that invested in this issue, but I am curious as to some of the points made. Um, my first question is how much quieter would uh getting quieter racket rackets actually make it decel wise? Well, uh to the point of the dog, uh the dog being 20 or 30 dB louder is uh actually quite large since there's a 10x difference uh in decibel. So each 10 dB uh is multiplied by 10. So a 10 decel difference is 10 times louder and a 20 uh decel difference is 100 times louder. So we've established that the 10 decel difference is loud uh very loud. Uh, but if we invest properly in the quieter nets as well as potentially quieter equipment for the players, sounds like there could actually be upwards of a 20 decel decrease, which I think would be better than spending $18,000 on locks, which it sounds like some people are frustrated about. Um, so that's my proposal is that instead of spending the just short of $20,000 on the proposed locks, why not invest the same equipment for players and quieter equipment and in effect creating a more active community? Thank you.

Thank you. Done. Like that. You get to state your name and address.

Hi there. My name is Michael Pie. I live on 5834 Northshore Drive. I've been a resident of Whitefish Bay for about 4 years now. And I would just like to say that one of the things that definitely made my family fall in love with this place was I still remember the day that we drove up to Clo. We walked around and we kind of saw the vibrance. I mean, we saw people walking the track, people playing pickle ball. And as somebody that does live by Cody and can it's probably a 5-second walk to the park, I can't say the fact that you guys mentioned the fact that it was 66 dB after uh introducing the sound barriers. That's a moderate noise level, similar to a running dishwasher. And to the gentleman that said that it's rendered his backyard useless. I would just like to say that it's the equivalent of having a regular conversation. And pickle ball also, I mean, it's not something that's necessarily played deep into the night. It's more of a it go it gets dark and you can't really go out there. And I would also like to say that we've definitely heard from a lot of older representatives, which is really good. And as a younger person myself, I think that some of the most fun memories I've had is spont spontaneously deciding to buy a pickle ball kit and going playing with my friends continuously. It's something that we can do freely. And I don't think that putting up locks and funding things, putting taxpayer dollars, $18,000 towards something that I mean, is it really going to make that much of a difference to pickle ball noise? And also, I would just like to say that I don't think anybody wants to come up to a place when they're trying to move here and seeing the vibrancy of Cody Park and seeing a pickle ball court with blocked by reservations and blocked by gates. That's all. Thank you guys for listening. Beautiful. Hi, my name is Henry Lonzac. I live at 1627 West Mill Road. Um, just for starters, I'm not sure who took to social media. I just wanted to say I want to give you an apology and I'm not sure whoever did that. Um, if you have the post, I'd love to see them personally. I'd love to have a personal conversation with whoever is attacking you on social media. I think that is completely inappropriate. Um, and

completely not a way we should be handling this. Um, I just wanted to speak to the group that we have playing pickle ball at Cody Park. Um, again, I'm I'm 24 years old. I would have never met just about anybody that I've met playing pickle ball um in any other way in life. Um, I've made a lot of made a lot of friends that I would have never imagined making. A lot of people in their 70s and 80s and um I just I have a ball playing with all of them. I I love it. Um and I just have concerns about closing down the pickle ball courts two times a week. Um, specifically because I know a lot of people that aren't here today, but they can only come on the weekends and again because they work and they might not have been able to make it today. Um, but if you close down Sundays, then they can't they can't come on Sundays, right? And as soon as somebody can't come on Sundays, if they could only play Saturdays and Sundays, now they're going to look for somewhere else to play. And now, um, same thing with the week. You know, when you close down in the middle of the week, there's people that still want to play. So, they're going to go look for somewhere else to play. Um, I just want to say we have a really great community of pickle ball players. And if you start closing down through the week, then a lot of them are going to probably start looking for other places to play and then kind [snorts] of destroy that community. And I think a lot of people here would agree that it's a really special community and I'm really happy to be a part of it. So, thank you very much.

Thank you. Thank you. My name is Mel Johnson. I live at 405 East Montlair in Whitefish Bay. First of all, I'd like to point out that Henry enjoys playing with uh all the morning group for pickle ball. And it's not just because we're a bunch of old farts that he can beat. [laughter] I was wondering that. Well, well, that's probably part of it to be fair.

Um, I don't want to repeat what's been said before, but I would like to hit a few fundamental points supporting the need to maintain active pickle ball community in Whitefish Bay. First of all, I'd like to respond to a few statements that have been made. Uh, earlier it was said that this the sound screens are not significant. Um but it's conceded that there was a decibel reduction of 10 to 11 dB which is significant and as was pointed out by one of the recent speakers. Um a normal conversation if you look that up is considered to be in the range of 60 to 70 dB and a guy I was sitting next to was recording the decibb as other people were speaking and it was generally between 55 and 65. Um [clears throat] uh Dr. Capus said this for the neighbors this is a quality of life issue and I respect that and I I know that the neighbors have sincere concerns here. However, it shouldn't be ignored that the pickle ballers the pickle ball affects their quality of life. This is something that a lot of people look forward to uh whenever they're going to play. uh they look forward to it both in terms of recreation for themselves and also in terms of socialization. As Henry pointed out, a lot of people have made a lot of friends and it's really built a community around pickle ball. So that quality of life assertion cuts both ways. Um he also said that uh when pickle ball is going on, it's impossible to hold a conversation out in your yard. That's not true because oftentimes when it's being played in the summer months, maybe there's games going on on all four courts and there's some people waiting to play. You can stand there and have a normal conversation just like I'm speaking now and have no problem conversing with each other. So, pickle

ball does not prevent people living next to the courts from having normal conversations. Um, I don't want to get into all the details about the different hours between the different plans because all of them are pretty darn close. Uh, but I do want to make a few observations. First of all, despite my friendship with Jack Orchard, I strongly oppose his suggestion that we reduce the number of courts over there from four to two. Um, I'm confident, you know, people people can uh uh correct me if I'm wrong. I'm confident that almost all if not all the pickle ballers would agree with me. Uh, it has a virtue of simplicity, but it reduces the play and all of the advantages advantages of pickle ball by 50%. Especially during the busiest part of the pickle ball season, which is during the good weather. uh that would basically decimate the level of participation because only half the number of people would be able to play at any one time. People would get tired of waiting. They'd go and the community would be largely ruined. Now to sum up, pickle ball should be regarded as a raging success exemplifying the purpose of public parks, which is to provide healthy recreational opportunities and socialization. And if you look at it that way, this is a big success. I I suggest that there's no other voluntary recreational activity in Whitefish Bay that attracts as many people as pickle ball has. Um, and it in involves widespread participation in healthy, inclusive recreation and socialization.

Um, the neighbors complaints are sincere. I I I wouldn't doubt that for a minute. However, they're really just the complaints of a relatively small number of people. And those few complaints shouldn't be able to override the legitimate interests of dozens of players. taking advantage of a recreational opportunity in a public place. So, I would suggest without going into the details of 9 versus 9:15 and all that stuff, I would suggest it's important for the board to protect active pickle ball play in this community. Thank you. Have any questions? I'd be happy to answer them, but if not, thank you for your attention. Thank you.

Thank you. It's maybe just have a few more comments because I think we're kind of getting repetitive at this point, but please go ahead.

Thank you. My name is Amy Wagner. I live at 5961 Northshore Drive. I've lived in Whitefish Bay for 15 years. And first of all, I I want to also commend not only Kelsey, the entire village trustees. I've been very impressed at your diligence in research, your willingness to invest in this, all you do for our community. Many of you met with me individually and I just truly appreciate that. So, thank you. And secondly, I' I'd like to address the pickle ball players in the room because I think, you know, I believe in the good of people. I think all of you, we all agree you deserve to play pickle ball. You should, it should bring you enjoyment. You should play with your grandkids. span generations, have exercise. There's so many benefits to it. Absolutely. You should play every day. You deserve to every day. And it shouldn't be at the expense of our wellbeing in what we have as our home with our peace and our desire to have some tranquility. There are definitely downstream dilitterious effects of pickle ball that cannot be denied. And I don't think any of us knew this is this was all unintended consequences when this decision was made to transition from tennis to pickle ball. Who knew it would have these downstream consequences? But there are myriad consequences. We haven't talked about that it reduces our property values that it makes it more difficult to sell your house if you're immediately adjacent to a pickle ball court. statistics one time

Chase let's not have

and then there are data back to data about the the mental health and well-being of adolescence especially and their brain development when it comes to rest I have two teenage daughters and that is why some of the times about having a break on Wednesdays Sundays I don't care what two days and starting later allows them to sleep in I know there's a lot of young people that were talking about the benefit of going to the park and playing. I think you'd feel differently if you were never allowed to sleep in past 9:00 because there's pickle ball. And as Dr. Kappa said, there's no sound mitigation on our second floors. And as Kelsey alluded to, there's just no way to do this within 100 ft. So the the hours, you know, we can squabble about an hour here, 15 minutes there, day in and day out. The bottom line is we all spent a tremendous amount of time, energy, and effort to come to a resolution. We all compromised. As Dr. Kappa has said, we want pickle ball gone. It has, in my opinion, 30 feet away from my threeseason room, which I cannot use actually in my outdoor space. It's disruptive to hear that noise. It's intrusive. I can't work from home anymore. The even with windows shut. I'm, as Dr. Kappa said, I'm a pediatric surgeon. Sometimes I work 24, 30 hours straight. So when I come home to rest, having a place of solitude and quiet is immensely important to me. I think all this passion and energy and brilliance should be harnessed to think about perhaps an indoor location. We've talked about outdoors that doesn't exist in a small city lot. Maybe we should put our heads together and think about moving it to an indoor location. Maybe we can repurpose some indoor space we already have or think about building a a enclosed so it doesn't affect neighbors.

You get to play pickle ball all year round. You should play. I mean that. And we should also enjoy the peace and solitude of our homes. That is something that should not be compromised. And yes, there's a handful of neighbors and we deserve peace. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Wagner. Before you leave, I just want to clarify. You stated that the two days Yes. do not do not matter in terms of the actual day.

One weekend day again for my girls who deserve to sleep in. My teenage girls allow one deserve one morning on a weekend. I don't care if it's Saturday or Sunday. And then one weekday I think in the summer they deserve to sleep in. And we have been very compromising. If you think of the light of day, you know, and we've restricted the hours. There are still far more hours to play pickle ball than there are for us to have solitude and peace. So I think those two days of pure, you know, we can work, we can rest, my children can rest. It's immensely important. Thanks, Kelsey. Thank you. Thank you.

All right. I I think let's go with these last two comments and then we'll we'll move on. So go ahead. Thank you. Uh Paul Ross, 5335 North Die Boulevard. Um I wanted to thank both of the representatives who obviously um are are against the majority here for coming. It's it takes a lot of confidence to come up and talk in front of a lot of people who you disagree with. So um I wanted a couple points of clarification here. Uh Kelsey, you said it in uh one of the earlier conversations that this was not about sound and about the uh decibel. You said it was about compatibility. Um, I was confused then when the two dissenters from the pickle ball group only talked about sound for the most part. Um, so I would love some points of clarification there. If it's not about sound and it's about compatibility, um, what is compatible with the park? What can we do at the park? If we're not going to set an actual decibel limit, if we're not going to set a a, you know, a level of which is respectable to be able to play at the public park, how how are things measurable? what what can I do? It is currently a public park. If I go out there and I'm playing music at X dB or I'm screaming at the top of my lungs, it doesn't seem like you guys are willing to set a decibel level that you're going to, you know, measure the folks of the park to. H how are you guys going to regulate anything? And and and that's really my big question. And it seems like we're legislating based on not necessarily evidence or measurable goals, but we're legislating based on, I don't know, some feelings and some some conversations and some maybe, you know, not great peerback studies. So, if you guys could let me know a list of of activities that are compatible at the park, I would love love to hear that.

Thank you guys. Have a nice one.

Got to break protocol and speak twice because I was concerned two minutes. But let me just let me just say something. I was on a I was on the village board. Trying to set decel levels is very dangerous because you're going to outlaw every leaf blower, every lawnmower, and every uh uh snowblower and every landscaper and uh that cleans driveways and things like that. So, that's a very difficult thing. But compliance is very important. I feel sorry for the the neighbors. I respect them. And if we don't have compliance, I don't like gates. It's a terrible idea, but it's the best thing available. And um we have to be able to enforce it in order to give them some relief. So if you're not willing to enforce it, it doesn't matter any what you vote on, but I would just ask you to simplify it. try to have consistent starting times and have more time in the non summer hours. It's too restrictive. Thank you.

Okay. Thank you. All right. I think we have heard about almost an hour of public comment. He wants compliance. I think me and my grandchildren access. Thank you. We I we we've registered your Yep. Okay. Thanks.

Okay. So, uh we've had about an hour. Um I think next is a board conversation about everything we've learned. Um I think we'll go, you know, left to right or whoever wants to to make a comment. Obviously, um we should probably categorize ourselves into three different areas. Uh the first is I like this plan that uh is currently in our our packet. Uh the next is I like it except I'd like some changes. And the third is I don't like it at all. I need we need a lot of changes. So if you could add to your commentary, you know, where you fall and how we could proceed um with whatever factors you think are important. Anybody want to go first? Looks like Tara is ready to roll. So, at our last meeting, I outlined how and why we made the mistake of letting pickle ball gain a foothold at Cody. At that last meeting, there were other trustees who agreed that we had aired. Last night, I read on Facebook, I read a Facebook post that admonished pickle ball players to be respectful of the neighbors at this meeting. On one hand, I thought that's a good idea. It's good to see. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized that that's truly the crux of the problem. From the beginning, the neighbors have complained to the board about pickle ball noise impacting their quality of life. This wasn't ever in a vacuum, though. Every time we discussed it, there were pickle ball players in the room fighting for more pickle ball rather than recognizing the issue and trying to work with neighbors to find a solution that would work for everyone. In my time on the board, we've had lots of contentious issues arise, many having to do with fix mistakes that we have made along the way. We've overhauled our approach to storm water and sewer management because of multiple issues that are in our infrastructure that we had kicked down the road. We changed our approach to tree management because, as it turns out, planting all the same kind of trees in an area while visually appealing can lead to rapid deforestation when new when a new disease comes to town. We're about to undergo a massive potentially

decadesl long project to remove lead service lines because back in the day, nobody knew that lead pipes could cause health problems when not treated properly. We've also had to make decisions that made people unhappy because of the potential for causing quality of life issues for others. This means that we don't allow chickens in White Fish Bay. We don't have a dog park in the middle of the village, even though we've had requests for both. Tonight, we have the opportunity to fix a mistake we made in the not too distant past when we allowed pickle ball at Clo. I don't think there's anyone on the board who doesn't recognize that this is a major quality of life issues that the residents around Cody have had to deal with since we made that mistake. I for one don't think that minimizing a major quality of life issue is the right thing to do, especially when the group impacting the quality of life has repeatedly demonstrated a lack of concern for the residents. I'm the first person to say that if you move in next to an airport, you don't get to complain about the planes. But this is different. The residents moved in next to a park that had a playground, a tennis courts, green space that gets used for large community gatherings, and an ice rink when the weather cooperates. They haven't complained about any of that ever. They have only ever complained about pickle ball. I keep hearing about the fact that we need to activate our park, and we've done that with new playground equipment. No complaints. New exercise equipment, no complaints. A sauna on the beach in the winter, no complaints. Beer and food trucks, no complaints. Again, the only complaint is pickle ball. It's great that we can offer all the amenities, and there's probably more that we could, but we can't be everything to everyone, especially at the expense of the residents who live right there. We don't have a skateboard park. We don't have a gun range, even though there used to be one in the high school. We don't even have a legal place to let your dog run free. All because of the impact that those activities would have on other people. I think it's time we use that same lens to think about the courts in White Fishbay. I don't think we should

have pickle ball anywhere. Period. M. Okay. Um All right. So, you're you're I'm a no. That's you're a no. In case you didn't picked up on I'll give it to Jacob because he kind of got my attention. Well, you know, so first off, uh to my colleague Tara on the board, I would love to see us have a skateboard parking dog party. Uh I'm not ready to give up on those yet. Uh, and I forget who said it, but someone called this a raging success. And I think that's

a good way to to frame this. It has been a success. You know, a lot of municipalities spend millions of dollars trying to get people to their parks. And we have something like that that happened organically here. I was the person who initially moved to buy the nets. Um, I'm sorry. Uh, I have voted to expand the courts. I'm sorry. I have voted to restripe the courts and I will continue to vote to support pickle ball, but it has to be done in ways that recognize those who live next door. I am very sympathetic to the idea that the needs of many outweigh the needs of the few, but I've also come to understand that proximity does matter in this case. Um, I have also had those thoughts that, you know, it's just a few people complaining about the noise, but I haven't been invited to their homes. I've spoken to them. I'm at that park all the time. I have heard it. It is a real issue. Their complaints are not frivolous. Um, and I do think we have the opportunity to come to a compromise. Now, a good compromise, no one should be happy with, but I think if we can come to a compromise, no pun intended, it would be a net benefit.

That's it. There was every pun intended with that trusty track in there. Is that I know it was on purpose. All right. Uh Jay,

uh thank you, President Buckley. Um and thank you to everyone who is uh who is here tonight. Um, something I I' I've heard over and over again through the months and months and months of talking about this is that we are there are just a few people complaining. And while that may be the case in Whitefish Bay, they aren't alone. Uh Kelsey alluded to it earlier. I'll give you a couple examples. Uh Lake Asiggo, Oregon. They've done literally everything that we have done to this point, including a compromise. They found out it didn't work and they shut down pickle ball at a park very similar in the similar situation to Cody. Just this past November, the town of Carmel, California, became the first town in the entire state of California to ban pickle ball at their parks for the exact same reasons. And again, it's just like the situation at Clo. Boise, Idaho shut down pickle ball at two of their parks after getting sued by neighbors and having to pay them a settlement. I'm not in the business of getting sued by our residents. We've tried the soundproofing nets. We've made alternative suggestions. We've brought people together to try to reach a compromise. We did reach a compromise. And then that same group, one of the groups that reached that compromise then came together with a new compromise. And then we heard from three different people again tonight who had their own versions of this.

It this isn't a this isn't a new scenario. Um we did the right thing years ago or how however long ago it was. I apologize. We did the right thing to put pickle ball at Cody Park. We really did. It was what then was considered a pretty niche activity with a small group of of of people enjoying it. No one could have foreseen the nationwide eruption of pickle ball in it just no one could have seen that coming. So, we did do the right thing, but now we need to do the right thing today, and that is to get rid of Pickle Ball Clo. We we've put far too many staff hours, far too many board hours into this and now we're talking about dedicating even more staff hours and spending taxpayer money to make sure that people play by the rules. Come on. Trusty Holler just said the needs of many versus the needs of a few. No one needs to play pickle ball. Everyone needs to sleep and have a quality of life. I would support um uh I would support getting rid of pickle ball because we've tried to come to a compromise. We've tried all sorts of different things. It's not working. It's time to just end it.

So, I I think we've done a lot of work since our last meeting to come to a framework for a compromise. I agree. I think there's variations on the hours. There's tweaks you can make here and there, but we have an opportunity to compromise. I think we should take that opportunity and we should preserve this as a recreation, but also recognize the needs of of those neighbors. And I think that's a worthwhile path and that's that's the path I'm supportive of as well. Right. Hannah, I agree with Jacob and Sam. A compromise has been worked on for a very long time and I appreciate that and Brian, are you pro compromise?

Yeah, I mean this is a tough issue. I mean, I I I mean, I I went I went knee-jerk. I I started with I the fact that the neighbors when they bought the house, they bought next to a park. That's where I started originally. And then the more you look into the issue, you know, it's not about the decibb for pickle ball. It's about the frequency and the amount of noise from pickle ball. And it's like your dog barking incessantly next to you 40, 50, 60 hours a day, however many hours you allow pickle ball. I mean, I'm a member of [clears throat] town club. I followed that. We were involved in that that situation up there. So I think at the end of the day, you know, it's not great. You know, I don't think we should go as far as eliminating it. I think the neighbors here did us a solid, frankly, and gave us the framework for a deal that they are willing to accept. And I am on team, you know, I think it's great for the parks. I think that, you know, allowing generations to get together and play, even if it's only for a select time period, I think that's probably the right way to go. I'm on team compromise. I'll go further and and I'll say that I don't think we should do lock gates. And the reason I don't think we should do lock gates is because, you know, those are meant to be tennis courts. So when you're not playing pickle ball, it's not that we're against allowing the the use of tennis, you know, any other time. So I I think we should not do the gates. I think should not invest the money on on doing those. I think we should post the hours for whatever we agree to. I think this is a fair compromise. And if the players don't abide by the hours, we can always come back and reassess and then eliminate at that point there becomes an issue. But I think what's on the table, what you have in front of us after a lot of hours and I thank Kelsey frankly for driving, you know, the amount of hours that you put into this is unbelievable and we're lucky to have you and thank you for all the work you put into it. But I'm absolutely on team compromise and I think, you know, the players should be a little bit thankful for the neighbors. I mean, yes, they're upset by the sound, but they could just as easily say, you know, not no, not at all. They were willing to come to the table and work with you as far as ours go. And I think the proposal that's on the table today is a fair compromise, and I think we should try to do Can I ask a clarifying question about

the gate as so as I was reading the ordinance? The ordinance is written to specifically prohibit pickle ball outside of certain hours, right? But if we lock the gate and somebody wants to use that court for something other than pickle ball, how how do we think about that? And it's probably a Chris question. Do we need to think Well, I'm thinking legally, are we in violation of our own ordinance by locking the gate or I'm just curious with how it's written. Is it about does the ordinance need to read differently in that case or is it administratively it's easier to deal with the way it's written. Okay. So, [clears throat] we could go back to the drawing board and try to figure something out if that's the question. But

I'm not an attorney. I just was curious as I was reading this because if you if you lock it and somebody wants to use it for something other than pickle ball, how do we address that question? Is maybe a better way to frame this? I I agree with Sam that maybe addressing pickle ball directly might be too specific. I kind of see it as courts closed, courts open, courts closed, courts open because because people we're not going to be able to like scan someone's racket and determine that they're coming in to play tennis and then they the reality for Washington,

you you don't have to have an ordinance if the courts are locked and no one can access it. There's not there's not some inherent right in the ordinance that says that you have rights to play tennis when these courts are locked. And so there's no Okay. Right.

They're locked. They're not accessible. Um so I think it's fine. I'm not saying we shouldn't write it the other way. I just I felt like if tennis is happening outside those hours, if the you know if by whatever means if the door is propped open or whatever and nobody calls and complains, I'm not sure that that's something we're issuing a citation for. The ordinance isn't written that it's prohibited. Um but it's not a it's not a right to play tennis outside the I understand. It was just would help me think about whether I I think block is a good idea is the answer to that question. So, I was just curious because I didn't think about it until I read the text of Jordan. The lock won't protect you and so you're going to have to do something with staff if you're gonna if you're going to go that route.

Well, I mean, that's crazy. This is a question for the chief. Chief, do you log the times that neighbors call when there are complaints about um people violating the ordinance or the rules? Yeah, if they call and complain, there's a call for service generated. So, it would be logged. So you would be able to easily report back to the village board about how many times that we got complaints as long as they called and spoke to a dispatcher. Yeah. It would be very important for neighbors to not be restrained in their calling when there are complaints if we wanted to get an accurate um read on whether or not people are actually respecting the rules that we have.

That would be the way to track it. Yes. We have to request if it gets blocked if we call a non-emergency line. It does not have blocked. Is that something that we can make sure happens? If you call a dis and talk to a dispatcher at the Bayside Communications, it will get logged. I man, I'm telling you what I know. Okay. Well, then cover your bases and ask to have it logged. Yeah, I would say.

All right. um well at the moment. So I'm also pro compromise. Um I I think there's a framework that we've generated that will um reduce the the number of hours by half or so. Um a couple days off, etc. Um I'm I'm not a big fan of locking courts and so I I would like to keep that in our back pocket, but I'm just one of seven votes. Um, so now we kind of need to move into the sausage making part of this conversation, which is we need to pick some hours. And Jay, I'll get to you in a second. Just um I just wanted to

Yeah. So, we need to firstly look at the ordinance um that was presented to us and and again kind of go back to the the the three possibilities. Either you like the plan, you like it, you don't like it, but you're going to vote for those hours. Or finally, no, no, no. we need to change some stuff and you know at some point this is kind of a Jenga tower um where we've negotiated with different groups and and and really nobody's happy anyhow but um we we we probably need to pull on some of those logs so Jay why don't you ask your question no I'm ready to comment on what you're what you're bringing um and this is due respect to

Kelsey in the in the hours that she has put in but I am camp to quote you Kevin no we need to make some serious changes. Okay. Serious. Okay. You're number Yes, I am certainly number three in that. I think uh the especially if we're not going to lock the gates, this these hours are very um

patchwork in my opinion. um some days starting at 9ine, some days starting at 10, some days doing morning and afternoon, some day and it's just it's it's very patchwork and the the two days, [snorts] you know, the the the two days, you know, I understand why we started with Wednesday and Sunday, but not and I and I understand the folks who say they want to play on the weekends, but Saturday and Sunday isn't always somebody's weekend. Um, people are doctors who work seven days a week. I used to work in the TV news industry, that was seven days a week. Um, people work odd hours, people work different days. So I I I think to say that um you know to to pick you know to say that you know we play on the weekends what is not it's not everyone's weekend is Saturday and Sunday all the time. Uh I think that we need to have a very specific start time for every day pickle ball is open. Uh, I think it's going to cause a lot of confusion and it's going to cause a lot of um money for signage if we uh have all of these different all of these different days and all these different hours. Uh, so I I would I don't have I don't have my own proposal, but I know I know where the I know where

I know where I want to where I want to start. I'm I'm trying to see do we have four votes to to accept the ordinance and so you're a no. Absolutely not. Anna, would you vote for these hours as presented or do we need to change them? I would vote for this, but I understand change. Okay.

I would vote Well, I don't know. I So, I agree. I think the hours need some smoothing. I don't don't know which gentleman brought the recommended changes. Uh it um something along those lines. I still think two days off is very important. One weekday, one weekend. Uh but just some some consistency in start time and uh end times I think is has real value. As far as a lock, um I would note that we have tried changing the hours and so far those it it's been unrespected. So if we're not going to do a lock, we have we have to have some other stick to go with the carrot. Um because otherwise the word enforcement has been tossed around a lot. It doesn't matter if we set these rules if no one's going to follow the rules. And if we don't have some mechanism, whether it be mechanical or or manpower to to enforce it, it's it's not going to go anywhere. So

I'll just say I'm on I'm on team. We need to change this for really a lot of the same reasons that Jay just brought up. Tara, where are you? Um you you you'd vote for these ordinance changes. I mean, I know you are a no, but you vote for the ordinance changes as presented in the PE memo or big changes.

There absolutely has to be a weekend day off for sure. Um and I I mean I understand why people would want a start time that is consistent. I would say 10 o'clock is a more reasonable start time. Okay. All right. So, I think at this point, Brian and Sam, would you vote for I think we're almost to the point where we need to start horse trading, right? But go ahead. Are you Do you like the plan or you want changes? I

I I think at some point you just have to call it. And I think there's a lot of hours put in negotiating these hours. And that's why, you know, we can stay here all night negotiating what hours make sense, what hours don't. I think at the end of the day, we're going to try it and see what happens. We're going to watch it. you know, if people if residents don't enforce the hours that are agreed to, then we're going to have to readress the situation. I think with all the hours that were put into it, why wouldn't you try to agree to the proposal that both sides agreed to? Okay. So, on the team, keep it the way it was negotiated.

I I'd prefer to simplify. So, I I prefer if it's open more contiguous hours. I think that's easier to administer and easier to understand. Um I'm fine with two days off as well. I think that's a reason that to me that's the key part of this framework that came together. Um but but beyond that I think contiguous hours or hours without breaks in the day are a little bit easier to administer. I don't know that you would get to significantly more total hours but just maybe how we administer those hours uh could could use some work. And then from a seasonal perspective, um I I'm not sure that turning this off outside of that season is necessary. And some of what I've seen looks like on the occasional warm day, you could make that start at a time where it's it's open to the public, but it's um in a more restricted time, particularly the weather does a lot of that work for you. The the sunlight does a lot of that work for you. So,

so you're okay with with some hours in the winter uh what like in the afternoon or what would you um or or kind of cutting across morning to afternoon. So, I don't know if it would start at 10 11 and going till 3:00 or 4 something like that. So, you kind of give a broad array of different groups an option. I've been trying to keep track of all the commentary and I forgot about the original proposal from that everyone had agreed to was two hours in the winter. So I was commenting on the one that said no play in the winter I guess was was what was there first and that was what I was responding to. was um yeah

the the neighbors counter was 2 to 4 on on Saturdays and Thursdays 11 to 1 Monday Tuesday and Friday and that's what's in our packet right now which is what we would be voting on if it came up to us. Okay. So okay I I have one I have one question. Okay.

Um because we we've also talked about it's been brought the lock versus not lock situation. um in previous meetings and what we currently have now, Chief Whitaker, am I correct in saying that currently it's a community service officer who checks it when they have time. Is that correct? That's in the proposal. Yeah,

in the proposal. And how many days a week do you have a cso? uh during the day um Monday through Friday in the evening. Uh right now it's three days a week. I don't have the staff to do this on a regular basis.

That's what I'm getting at. Um if we I don't want to pay money for locks, but I also don't want to pay a uniform police officer to check the park at closing time. Um, that's ludicrous. No, I've kind of held back on on my thoughts of how we would change this. Um I I think I think though there is a foundation um that we can kind of declare a victory on um all the hours that went into this because while we may not have come up with a perfect schedule that has contiguous hours that has the right days and whatnot. Um there's a definite foundation firstly that there are two days off a week and I think everybody here is okay with two days off a week. Um there's a roughly 50% reduction in hours and I think that everybody's kind of on board with that. Um there there is a later shift of morning hours. Right now it's 8. There's been some proposals of 9 9:15 and and 10 as well. Um there's been definite commentary about well at least from the board not necessarily from the um the two parties that we shouldn't have a split in the midday where people need to um look at the the their watch and figure out where they lie on the ca on the calendar. We should basically have a schedule that can fit on a bumper sticker. Um and then finally something that's just simple. So, I've tried to do that. And so, I'm gonna just pass you um some ext my rationale here. And and again, this is just a possible draft that that tries to build off of those five foundational points. Um I I did pick Tuesday and Thursday as days off. Um it it it seem, you know, Monday, Wednesday, Friday,

Tuesday, Thursday seems to be days that that matter the most. um or that um would be simple to remember. Um I've picked a 10:00 uh start time and basically go 10 to 7 on Monday, 10 to 7 on Wednesdays, and then Friday, Saturday, Sunday, 10 to 5. We shave off some time. It's the weekend. Um, you know, I I just I I thought that that would be a good way of um helping the neighbors have dinner times um on the weekends. That [clears throat] comes down to 39 hours, which is a reduction from 84. Um I'll go on to winter season. I I picked again keeping it closed on Tuesdays and Thursdays and then having hours from 1 to 5. And my rationale for that is simply as uh Trusty Deetman was saying, there's not a lot of people that are playing in the wintertime. Um it's a it's a pretty odd time to play. The it could we could have snow, it could be 10° out, it could be windy. I mean, there's a lot of reasons why. There's there's not a lot of folks there. Um limiting it to two hours seems, you know, too limiting. Um, I I I I think it's already limited to a few people who will brave a January to go and play in the first place. So, I picked afternoon hours from 1 to 5. Five being the fact that, you know, the daylight is probably gone by 5:00 anyhow. Um, I'm I'm happy to hear any revisions that you'd like. Let's let's put aside for the moment like the locks because we'll get to that in another conversation. But Jay, you had your hand raised.

Yeah. Um so first of all I I this is I think this is a really good framework. It it talks about um continuous play. Uh I instead of I mean what I one thing that I would say and this goes to your you know to your dinner point. I would say just 10 to six the five days that it's going to be that it's going to be open. But I do think that there needs to be a a weekend day. Um, as for the winter season, I because you mentioned the uh you mentioned the sunlight or the the daylight hours, I would say to four. Uh that way you're getting four hours of u sunlight and because you know a lot of a lot of times by uh in the winter months the sun's already down by five.

Okay. But but yeah, I would say yeah, 10 10 to 10 10 to 6 on the days that it's open, change the day that it's open and then or that it's closed and then noon to 4 on the on in in the winter time would be if if we're looking for a compromise in a framework. I I like where you've started with just tiny little changes. Tiny little changes. Sounds like you're 100% you're with him. Okay, Jacob. That's why I said fix. I think uh making one closing time and uh and having one weekend day. You're still okay. You're so I would I would vote for that. And well, you say one closing time.

Oh, so the 10 to 6 instead of some at 7, some at 5, it's 10 to 6 across on Fridays. Oh, 10 to six. Was that for both of you? 10 to six. Um all seven days. No, no, no. What? Whatever five days we decide to have the the courts open, I would say 10 to 6. Got it. Okay. I I see what you're trying to go that way. 6:00 typically dinner time. All five days. All five days that it's open. I would suggest 10 to six. Got it. Got it. Got it. Well, no. Okay.

I'm I'm still a no, but they adamantly believe they need to have a weekend day off. Okay. Well, I can tell you that students who go to school have Monday through Friday school and weekends off. Students who go to school deserve to be able to sleep in one weekend day a week. And that would be either Saturday or Sunday. The the only mitigating comment I'll make is that Saturday and Sunday is pushed to 10. And so I don't fine you, but I've had teenagers and mine often slept until 1. Mine does too. So I too sounds like Brian I'm on team in the way that it was negotiated. Oh, okay. You're still number one. All right.

I mean that's what both sides compromised on that solution. It's there's not a great there's not a great solution for this. I mean it's no one's going to be happy. No one's going to be happy no matter what happens and it's a both both parties came together with that agreement and here we are changing it. That's why I'm I'm against it.

Yeah. I mean I get you my opinion Sammy. Um, so I would treat in the summer season the weekdays and the weekends slightly differently. So I would I would start in the summer season maybe slightly earlier 9:30 because of the heat. Whether it goes till 6:00 or 7 during the week I would say go till 7:00 and then um Saturday and Sunday 10 to 5 feels perfectly fine. Starting later on the weekends seems um beneficial. Are you giving a weekend day off? And

um my sense is that the the votes will be there to give a weekend day off. That seemed important. Um I'm willing to give a weekend day off. If I had my ultimate proposal, I think the weekends I would prefer to be available for more people to be able to use it. Um but I also realize that that's important to the compromise. So I'm I'm not sure on that one. Um on the winter, Jay said noon to 4. I had 11 to four for the same reason, the sunlight. Um, splitting hairs at that point, but I was with you on just pushing it back. Yes.

Um, the I guess the only comment I'll make is I um I I liked the concept of having play on Sundays. Um and and indeed as we shave away, you know, July and August being able to play at 8:00 at night, now the people who would normally be at work, you know, in a traditional workplace, um they really only have Saturdays and Sundays. That's kind of my only plug. But there are four people who said they they want to keep the Sunday. So unless I could convince somebody else to switch over it, it sounds like Wednesday and Sunday. And then I I know there's been a lot of other comments and it's unfortunate we didn't go left to right instead of right to left because Sam got in a couple of comments of changing it to from 10:00 in the morning to 9:30.

Um your your mention of taking out Sunday going until 7 during the weekdays in my opinion kind of compensates for those people who may not be able to play on Sunday in the workplace. Um question that that was my thought around it.

That's true. Um, okay. So, I think where we've maybe landed is um Monday with the exception of Wednesday and so Wednesday and Sunday closed and then uh I I think we're still at 10 10 to 7 uh Monday, Wednesday, Thursday. Um Are you closing? Are you closing Tuesday or are you closing Wednesday? Wednesday, for whatever reason, was the agreed upon close day. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm I'm I don't remember the weekday being critical. Just a weekday. Yeah.

Yeah. I apologize. I I just I'm just trying to go with what I I wanted Tuesday, Thursday because it just rolls off the tongue. But um Chief, can you remind me the evening the cso officer Wednesday? Okay. So, Wednesday actually works better to have it perspective Wednesday closed. Yeah. Well, no. If the cso operate is there on Wednesdays, yeah, you checked for me, but yeah. Okay. So, it doesn't So, that doesn't Wednesday, we wouldn't have to change a schedule. So, that's great. All right. So,

and before you write too much stuff down, Kevin, I I'm still firmly in the camp of one start time, one end time. I think if we want to keep it simple, let's keep it simple. Yes. If that's 10 to six or if it's 9 to5 or whatever that is. I think one. Okay. This is when it opens. This is when it closes. Like you said, it's got to fit on a sticker and maybe maybe even a small one. So I I don't disagree with you, but I it's just now we've got 10 to six or 10 to 7. And then seven was why we could eliminate Sundays because people could play after work. So 10 to How

about 9:30 to 6:30? There you go. Split the but I mean that Yeah. Yeah. I think just stick with even I would like to stick with even hours. Oh, all right. Ready to split it, baby? Uh, all right. Let's let's stick with 10 to 7 for all days and Wednesday and Sunday. Yes. Are off. Are off.

Can we just out of respect to people who have spent a lot a lot of time and I'm so thankful to all of them. Could we let one player and one neighbor just comment on what's on the table because I I will say Paul has spent many hours, Steve has spent very many hours on this. So to comment, so what's what's being discussed that I've heard is Wednesday and Sunday no play. All the other days are 10 to seven in the summer and we Yeah. And we have to get there, I guess. So maybe we'll do that and then let you each speak once. Yeah. Okay. Um and then Okay. So winter I think you we we we coalesed around a little earlier. Was it like noon to noon to 4? Noon to 4.

Okay. And keeping the closed days. Yep. which would be Wednesday and Sunday. They're fine with 11 number of hours. Weather a little nicer rather than 12. That's fine. 11 to three. Yep. In the winter. In the winter. Okay.

Monday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. Yes, that's what we're that's what we're talking about. So, Feling has made a suggestion. Um, I'm sorry. I just if there are comments I really Yeah. would would like to make any comments if you could come to the mic. Sorry. There are people online. Yeah.

So, I think that sort of a no-go for us is that we want Sundays off. Whether or not it's Tuesday or Wednesday, the other day doesn't really matter that much. Starting a little later is better. Um, especially for people trying to sleep. So, 10 to 7, but if you look at the number of hours, you've increased it from 39 to 45. So maybe if you can figure out a way to take one of those hours off that that's why I was suggesting 10 to six. It was it it was we we kept

Thursday. So that actually makes a lot of sense. Um I'm not sure you're going to get four people to say they want to have three days off. So then go to then go to either 11 to 7 or 10 to six. 11 to 7. No. Well, and then um see this is what happens. Either one of you want to comment on this. Oh yeah. And the other thing is I think whatever we decide we should probably reassess it after a couple months. Yeah. Because if there's no enforcement then I think we need to start. We need to shut it down. If there's no enforcement,

okay, understood. We would absolutely reevaluate. Uh, is there someone from the pickle ball group who would like to talk about these

starting that late penalizes the morning group. the the by far the biggest number of players is in the morning and starting so late will cause many of us to not be able to play because we have other things going on and seems like all these compromises are are chiseling away at the main hours being used. Now I understand that maybe uh for the neighbors that's good. Uh on the other hand, I just want you to recognize that means that the people who play most are being deprived of the most in these proposals. I agree 30 to Steve. Uh 11 to three was set for them. It's a lot better than 12.

We've got Yeah, we moved it to 11 to 3. 9:30 to 6. You said 9:30 to 6:30. Well, that's increasing hours.

Yeah. Not to mention I I I really do want to defend the the 7:00 time just because we've um while it's true that there I think there's three different groups. I think there's a morning group. I think there's an afternoonish group. And then I think there's a kind of unrepresented group of casual players. Um, and there's thousands of them that completely swamp everybody else and and and they're going to be kind of unhappy with not being able to play on Sunday because that's one of those casual days that people can play. Um, so I I I want to defend that 7:00 time. Um, okay. Well, we have at least something that and again I am not surprised that there are unhappy people here. there is, you know, usually we end meetings where people have at least some somebody is, you know, walking away um with a smile on their face. I don't think that's going to happen here. Um

so I I guess here my question is then I mean we are expanding in your proposal. We're expanding from 39 to 44 45 45 sorry math is hard. Um and that that was because of consistency like I shaved off Friday, Saturday and Sunday work till 5 kind of for that reason to get rid of six hours you know so that you would be done Friday night you know how many people are playing pickle ball on a Friday night a Saturday night a Sunday night those kind of seem to you know a few

I'm sure there is I'm sure there's somebody who wants to play at all times you know like there's always going to be somebody you're talking about Saturday, those are the casual players. So, kids or the young teenagers or that I don't really want to have that long. Okay. Yep. I agree. I'm there with you. All right. So, I I think we keep kind of coalesing maybe around 10 to 7. Yes. And and Wednesdays and Sundays off. Yes. And then a winter of 11 to three. Yes. Okay. Um, so far we have nobody who's saying I hate this. Well,

yes, you do. Yes, you do. I will not vote for this. I think I'm going to have at least four votes for for that plan. Yes. Okay. Um, I would somebody like to make that motion or at least have me give it a shot? Well, hold on. Before we do that, do we hold I'm reading the ordinance. We also need to talk about locks.

Yeah, I'm just I the reason I'm I I was rereading the ordinance because the ordinance doesn't talk about enforcement. It just talks about times and the other the other things that are non-pickle ball related such as fishing, swimming, rock, breakwaters, um, and motorized boats. I So I'm I'm just trying to get at we could vote on the times and then go to to enforcement based on what is based on what's in front of us because the ordinance doesn't have anything to do with enforcement or locks or anything. So we could vote on the times right now and then go

and then go back and have another discussion about enforcement late. You mean later or tonight? No, tonight. Okay. But I'm what I'm saying is I I think what you're suggesting is the proper way to do it because of because of the ordinance. Okay. Because the the ordinance only talks about times. All right. So I think what you're suggesting is the right way to go.

Would anyone like to try make a motion or I guess I just want I just want everyone to consider one more time. Do we during the week start it slightly earlier? for recognizing heat in the summer. That's that's one thing I would I would say. And I don't think it's significantly earlier, but to me, starting at 10:00 on a Saturday versus starting at 9 or 9:30 during the week for people's schedules, I I understand you might need two lines on the bumper sticker, but it's still not that complicated to have your weekend day start at a different time than your weekday. And and to me, that that seems more reasonable. And it and I would even say you could shorten the Saturday hours to compensate for that. But I think the time windows during the week is is when more people may utilize it during the week.

You're pulling on the Jenga tower because Sorry, I understand because you're not wrong. All of Nobody's wrong in any of these comments. Um the only problem is now you're adding hours to the morning and you know there there should be a requisite reduction at the evening but we really can't do that because then you have the casual players who can't play. So here here's what I've heard. I've heard people say tonight that's not early enough and that's not late enough. So meet in the middle. That's why I said 9:30 which is what which is exact which is

which is what this which is what the current proposal in front of us the 10 to 7 Monday Tuesday Thursday Friday Saturday is in front of us. We are it's it's it it's it's meeting it's meeting in the middle. It because you've got the people who say that 10:00 is too late to start and then you've got the people who say that 7:00 is too late to finish or that 5:00 is too early to finish but 9:00 is too early. If we're if we're going to have the number of hours, if we're going to have the number of hours the same, we're going to have to we're going to have to cut from both ends, which is what this 10 to 7 does.

Yeah. All right. Um I mean, I'm gonna vote no either way, but Okay. [laughter] But but I'm just Well, then but but for the but for the but for but for compromise sake I'm just saying that that is keep keeping in mind like a no vote is basically saying I don't want to reduce pickle ball and I think that both of you would want to be that to do that and reduce pickle ball. I guess I would maybe I didn't mean to cut you off, but I might now be on team Brian here in that the original proposal

as as as cattywampus as those hours are. It provides earlier days, it provides later nights. It provides one weekend, one regular day off. And it was broadly agreed upon and no one's happy with it, but it was broadly agreed upon. Yeah. just cuz it doesn't look good. So, we might need two bumper stickers. And I know I was a proponent of having all the hours be the same. Jacob, I'm just kid. Well, honestly, it'd be silly to put hours on a bumper. I know. Just kidding. But, uh,

so so I mean, I guess the original neighbors counter proposal that we started with checks all of the boxes even though it doesn't look pretty. I'm a hard no on that. Uh the the concept of having bifarcated schedules, I just Yeah. Yeah. No, no. I'm sorry. We're we're we're having we're having too much trouble already with seven people, let alone adding another, you know, 30 to the mix. Um are we at a stalemate? I mean, like I I thought two minutes ago we probably had enough support for 10 to seven.

I'm gonna vote for a compromise as long as we can get enough votes for a compromise. I just think we're trying I get it. Trying to play It's a Jenga. It's a game of denga. Like every time somebody pulls on something, we we lose it. Um which compromise are you pointing to? I just want to make sure I read the correct one. count. Yes. The one in the ordinance. There's the one in the ordinance or the one that's been the one in the memo counter. Yeah. What page of the memo? Sorry. It's on page nine. No, I take that back. It's on page.

I think it's easier just to read the ordinance if you scroll all the way down. Yeah. No, I see it. Okay. If everybody's having fun though, I'd encourage people to come back when we're talking budgets. I think we have these coverage conversations all the time. Yeah. Involve your property taxes. No, nothing even remotely like this. Um, okay. I'm concerned with the let's let's not

I'm concerned with the compromised hours which people worked very hard on. I'm concerned that people will accidentally be there when they're not supposed to. That's fair. That's confusing. I think that'll happen no matter what. I'm going to just give it a try. Well, I'm I'm going to have to give it a try and and and say I'm going to make a motion because I can do that. um that the um hours of play to modify whatever this uh ordinance is 1831 or 14 ordinance 1923

1923 uh we'll have a summer season from May 1st to October 15th of Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday from uh 10 to 7 and Wednesday and Sunday off and a winter season from May 1st to October 15th from 11 to three on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and off on uh uh w Wednesday and Sunday. Yeah, that's right. So, I've made a motion and if it fails, it fails. I'd second it.

Okay, we have a motion and a second and I'm sure a ton of unhappy um unhappiness. All right, any further discussion? Please know if there's further discussion, that's fine. Let's just vote on it and then if it fails, we'll move on to the further discussion. So all those in favor of plan X uh say I I I two three. That's it. Three. We don't have a fourth and the motion fails. Okay. And we got to go back to horse trading. Um guys, no. I'm I'm really sorry, sir. No.

I And we're working that out. We're working it out. Um so about the same thing. Yeah. Well, and then I'm going to try it as well. I'm going to try the agreement that we have. Okay. So, back to the what's on page seven. Yep. The neighbor's counter that the agreement that was uh hammered out uh thanks to Kelsey and uh everyone, all the willing participants, uh I would move that the village board approve ordinance 1923 as written in the neighbor's counter in the me that that's in the that's in our packet. I'll second that. So it's So now we're going 9 in the morning on Mondays. So now we just we Yes. At no as presented in the packet. Presented in the pack. So just what's there? Yep. Yes.

I think I mean it doesn't look good on a bumper sticker, but they play on a regular basis at those times. I mean people are going to understand and work around our schedule. I think we go with what was agreed to by both parties. And I I I second Jacob's motion. Can I amend the winter hours or is it now seconded as stands? It's Would you take a friendly amendment? Friendly. I'd take it. I I would just go the Did we say 11 to three? Yes. In the winter, I would just make that because right now it bounces around day to day in the winter, I think, if I'm reading this right. Yeah. I would just go 11 to three throughout the winter. It's a love it specific day

on the same days that it's available. on the same days it's available. Okay. Um yeah. Uh that's probably the end of that discussion. So it's basically the neighbors counter on page two. Just everybody understand what that is and all in favor. So with the amended hours as presented in the packet with the amended winner hours. Okay. Uh all those in favor say I. I. I. Two three four five. Uh, okay. Uh, and Nay is Terra Nay and then Jay. Okay. Well, there we go.

I'm glad we spent two hours to come up with what exactly was in the packet. Um, thank you, Go.

So, then next would be um, uh, enforcement. Um, and I I'm not this is really staff direction um as to either purchasing a lock or not or is there was there some other enforcement concept that you wanted to bring in it. I I will not support any plan that hold on that includes using police officer time to enforce this that is a waste of taxpayers dollars is a waste of police officer time.

So if that means we if that means we got to lock it up then we got to lock it up. Okay. who's also pro on the on it to the lock. I'm against the lock. I mean, there's so many things you you can put stuff in between every reported locks. The cost of it for us, these hours may change six months from now if this becomes a problem. I just think it's wasted money, right? I mean, I I I don't I don't disagree with you, Brian, but you want to send a police officer to enforc one night and uh I don't think a I don't think a lock is going to change that. I think you're going to have that issue no matter what.

I think that is true. I think people are going to hold the door open for somebody else and let somebody else in. I I if we are spending money I mean and I I am totally with you on I hate spending money on enforcement. Um but I actually think we're going to have to um because unfortunately I don't think people are going to abide by the rules. If we're going to spend money and we're stuck with having pickle ball there, I think we need to spend the money on additional mitigation for sound to at least bring it down a little bit more for the neighbors. Yeah,

I you know what we got to do something I would just like to speak because administratively this is a really big concern. One, I think if you ask the neighbors if they could get additional sound barriers or locking the door, I believe, and they can speak for themselves, they would say locking the door because the number one thing I heard over and over again from players and from neighbors was that the current hours aren't respected and they want the hours to be respected. I This is of significant public safety concern because we are very low on police officers. It is very hard to hire police officers. We have a few on light duty right now, which I understand that means they can go to the courts, but it takes them away from their other patrolling activities and such. For the officers to have to be running to non-emergency calls, it's it's very difficult because they can't get there when people sometimes expect them to get there to do the enforcement. I understand it's $18,000, but I absolutely think we will spend $18,000 indirectly in our officers running to the courts to do enforcement. Um, so I I respect I don't like the look of it. I started opposed to it, but I dove into it. I talked to a lot of people. I researched. I don't see any other way for the hours to be respected that to have the lock. We can reprogram the lock if we find that people are respecting it. We can, you know, not have it programmed during certain seasons if we if we wish or, you know, depending on how things go. Um, I'm fine with triing it. This will be then I won't talk again. I'm fine with triing not having the lock, but I want very clear staff direction on the expectations around that because I I think the expectations from the neighbors are going to be that it's enforced. I heard that very loudly in the room. There's a lot of frustration at staff right now about it not being enforced and it's not because we don't want to enforce it. It's because that we we don't have time and ability to be there all the time. Um so I want to be

clear, we won't be there all the time. So what about a clause? If we are spending, if we've had to rec, if we've had to go out there 20 times,

it automatically gets back on the agenda for whether or not we are going to even continue to have pickle ball there. I I thought about that and I really struggle because there are there are multiple different groups of pickle ball players and I do think that this will innocently be not f followed. Like it what it seems like is a lot of the people who aren't respecting the hours are younger people, their kids. they're probably just not realizing that these are the hours. And so I just don't want the people that are very passionate about playing daily to be, you know, I guess essentially punished. I feel like people will come and say it's not us. That's what's happening now. They say it's not us. Um and you know, if they're calling and other people aren't respecting it, I don't know how to discern who's who's part of which group.

And I don't know that it really matters. I think the noise and the sound is the noise and the sound regardless of who it is who is making the noise and the sound. If you are someone who lives in a house and you are inundated with annoying pickle ball noise, I don't think it really matters who's holding the racket. I mean, really and truly. I mean, and maybe maybe if we don't have locks and people who are regular players know that there's a possibility that this is going away, they will help with that enforcement piece. I I don't know. Yeah, I think it it does put the onus on the players, which I think is difficult. Well, because they're not there. But that's

I mean there's just there's different groups like the morning group. If we were saying styling equipment for the morning group, I would have a much higher likelihood that that would be respected because they're very organized. You could reach out to them. The afternoon players are more, you know, it's there's just there's different segments and I don't know how they would be able to communicate across all those different segments about what the hours are and we got to make sure we respect. The sign on the fence is going to tell them what the hours are. Okay. And I I I'm I'm sorry. It's just it's as soon as you said the words public safety issue, nothing else matters. Nothing else matters.

Yeah. I just want to be manage expectations around. I I respect I don't want the courts locked. I'm fine if we don't put a lock on them. I want to be very clear from a staff perspective about what is attainable. It is not attainable for us to be there within 5 10 I would say within an hour of a complaint because based on our how many people we have on the streets and what's going on that there's a lot of days that that may not be able to happen. We although we still then have the same problem if someone holds a gate open for somebody else. Now we've got the neighbors who are I mean they're still angry because it's still going on and now they're in the position of having to go over and go wait a minute look at the sign get out. And now we've got, you know, potential for conflict, which is also not great.

I mean, I I mean, I I initially was very much team team lock, and I'm not necessarily anti-lock, but I'm just anticipating maybe we could frame it in a different way of lock tonight or lock later on, right? That like we gather, we find out how well the schedule is working and then decide on a lock at a later time. But that still puts the onus on the police on the neighbors. Yes. For the onus on the on the neighborhood, the neighbors and the police officers. No. No, we're not. You're a lot of money.

No, I it's it's not necessarily that I'm pro I'm anti having the onus be on the neighbors and okay the police officers and the police department. Whether it's a lock, I don't even know what else it is. But we can't we can't make we can't make the the neighbors confront pickle ball players and we can't can we can't have police officers continually being called or continually having to check in because we don't have that manpower public safety issue. All right, let's keep going with who's on team. Who wants to buy the lock tonight to pass a lock?

I'm positive I want to buy the lock tonight. I am positive I want to resolve it tonight. I feel like we've kicked this can down the road so many times. Uh I think some consistency even if no one's happy with it some, you know, like this is what we're going to do. Uh just throwing it out there. I think that there's value in that and even if it means we argue for a bit longer. Uh I' I'd like it to hammer it out tonight. Oh yeah. And I'm when I say lock tomorrow, I meant like see what happens and then Oh, I'd like to side this issue. Well, right. I mean, either we're gonna have a lock. We'll we'll ask them staff to get it after the end of tonight or we won't and we'll revisit it later. That's kind of what I was trying to go for. Did I skip you? No, I need to think.

Okay. I guess I would be in favor of the lock. I don't see another way. We don't have enough manpower to send out there to enforce compliance. We've tried it um and so far innocently, I presume, but doesn't really change the facts on the ground. People have been playing in off hours and that's going to continue unless there is some enforcement and we don't have the people power to do it. So locking us Sam is it down to me? I'm still thinking too. Yeah, I'm prologue now. Oh, you're prologue. Okay, I'll move that to there. Uh, okay. I think we have three prologs and

I I don't want to authorize funding for a lock tonight. Okay. And so now we're still at three. So I'm also you can always go to a lock later, right? But if you're going to buy the locks, you got to buy them now. Want to buy the lock tonight. That's what I'm saying is I don't want to authorize funding. You're like an auctioneer up here. Well, then yeah, but this we're we're we're paying we're paying for a lock. We're spending the $18,000 either way. We're paying for a lock or we're paying for a police officer.

True. Okay. Hannah, last putting you on. Maybe everyone can be adults and follow the rules and the compromise that we have and maybe maybe it'll get better. I don't know. Can you send that to your groups and say, "Hey, this is where we're at and you know, we don't want to have locks. We don't want to be shut down. Can we be serious?" If you're addressing me, I don't know who these people are. Okay. I'm sympathetic to the neighbors. I've gone there at night and said at 8:20 they're playing. I said, "You have to leave." They said, "Well, let us finish our game." I said, "You're 20 minutes late. You don't need to finish your game." Then they continue to do with their game. And and locks won't help that. Locks won't help.

Locks won't help that. That's my point. They get locked in. Lock is only going to help in the mornings. That's That's a good point. Lock is only going to help in the mornings. It's not going to help at at the end because the door locks, who cares? It's not like [clears throat] it turns on a buzzer or anything. So, it's really just the more lock will only help in the morning. That's it. That's half a lock. Well, it'll help if there are if there are people who are responsible and they're walking out at 8 and they make sure the door closes behind them. In the very same way, if you're buzzing into an apartment building, they'll you don't let somebody else in. I'm just saying if you got there at 5 to 8 and you start playing, it locks and then you play for an hour. I mean,

so it's it if it doesn't make an alarm or something and kick people out, what about pointless? We This sounds really punitive. What about a sprinkler system? Yeah, I'm for it, man. It'd be a lot cheaper. It It wouldn't hurt. It wouldn't hurt anybody and it would It's effective. I was thinking of a speaker. Like you could just turn on a a loud crap. No. Now we're talking about decibb again. Oh yeah. How much would a sprinkler system?

It's not a bad idea. I I mean I don't want to compare people to invasive species or animals, but I just know they they sell those. You wouldn't get this type. Um but they sell the sprink the motion detected sprinklers that spray deer and rabbits away from gardens. I wouldn't want it to spray people directly, but just enough for people to be like, "Oh, I'm worried. I should go home." Trust me, that is not a bad I'm open to anything. Gentle gentle sprinkles. Not not like a high p. You're not not crop dust in here.

So So we'll have staff look into sprinkling and uh we kind of had we kind of had kind of had three and then Anna kind of said she was anti-lock for the for the night. I I am I'm team sprinkler now. Yeah. Okay.

I I do want to know um Chief and Anna pointed out over there that a lock does help on the days off which I think especially Sunday enforcement. The other thought too when we were discussing this for many hours internally is that if the gates lock and people knowingly prop it open or let people in, it's a lot easier to issue a citation to say you knew what you were doing, right? This this is a locked door. The whereas going up to, you know, people that are, you know, typically playing pickle ball and issuing a citation is not a fun thing for an officer to do. They're just trying to have fun, right? I'm still team lock. That's although the sprinkler I'm willing to look into that I think creative

that change any I think we still have just three votes for locks tonight. Anybody changed their mind because of um Wednesday Wednesday Sunday. You're you're not wrong. That's true. That's big. Locking them for Wednesday Sunday. That's big. Anybody want to change? Is it that hard for a community service officer or someone that night to I mean you know what I mean for that morning? But it'll be constant. I mean, it'll be, you know, it's not like they can go at 8 and make sure it's not being used, you know, it's going to be throughout the day. So, you put on a legit lock. Do you have an CSO on Sunday?

Yeah. No. Okay. All right. Well, I think we're still at three people who want locks immediately and four who do not. Okay. So, I think we should then kind of move on. Um so just clarification on expectations for staff. Um so what are what are the expectations for enforcement? Um the same as they are status quo. That's when when neighbors call um you you respond and and and if and if if um what is it May 15th and the village board meeting comes around and you're like oh my god we got 17 calls this week. Well then maybe we'll buy the lot.

Come on guys. Is that really is that really attainable? I mean [laughter] I don't like the fact that we're closing it off for tennis then. I mean that we're ensuring these same hours and that's what I think we're missing here. So like we're we're you know if you put a lock on there you're eliminating tennis ever be played there. That was my originaldeed Cumberland Cahill Middle School tennis courts. No one else is there is there pickle ball courts? There was comment that instead of having it say closed on Wednesdays and Sundays that it would say tennis on Wednesdays and Sundays. Tennis only.

There's other ways we can do this too. I mean, we talked with this for like the the rentals. I mean, you could do escalating fines. I mean, the people that are playing at this time period are typically the same people where maybe it's a warning and escalating fines that can cover a community service offer officer's time, for example. And we if if it's really a problem, we can address it at that point. But then the but then the onus is on the police department and our staff and you just heard our village manager say and our police chief say we don't have that manpower. So the onus is on them. Anytime someone plays past 8:00 and one of the neighbors has to call the police department. the police officer, the police department has to take someone off of a call or after a call to then respond to this incident, which Chief Whitaker said could be in in excess of an hour. And by then, those people are gone because it's dark and they don't care that they're going to get fined because they're gone by the time the police officer gets there. We don't have the money and the manpower to put the onus on the neighbors and the and the police department. It's been said to us by our village manager and our police chief. I I [clears throat] don't I I don't understand why that is such a difficult thing to to wrap our heads around. They said it can't be done and the status quo is not acceptable. Okay. If we need the lock and it's easier to write citations because people are propping it open, I sure team lock tonight.

Okay. Well, then there's four. All right. Okay. Uh why don't do you need a motion or do you understand that staff direction now? It'd be a motion to authorize the expense from the 2025 surplus. Okay. Would I move that we authorize the expense for the locks using the 2025 surplus. Great. Uh is there a second? Second. Thank you, Jay. Uh, any further discussion? Hearing none. All those in favor say I. I. I. One, two, three, four. Got it. Uh, four and nay. Nay. No.

Uh, okay. Motion carries. Three, four to three. All right. Mr. President, one thing we haven't discussed tonight is the the checkback time. um like to to the changes we're making today if they're being adhered to and like whi when how much further down the line or when are we going to bring this back? Any one of you can ask. I have agreed that I will meet with them after I think it was two or three months. I can't remember. I put a reminder on my calendar. So why don't we let me meet and if there's major issues then I can like circle back with you guys. But I

I think in some ways just to put it on the calendar. I I don't know that that's going to but I will circle back and meet with them and that's fine. I just want to make sure that that Yep. And I'll and I'll do the same. I didn't I didn't know that was in I didn't know that was in the works and that's that's totally acceptable. Okay. In my opinion. Okay. Sounds good. Thank you. Okay. We're good. All right. Then we'll move on to an easier agenda item discussion action on contract for financial software and special assessment tracking. Kelsey.

Yes. Um so with lead service lines we will be doing um substantially more um special assessments than we've done in the past. Our current finance software BS software BSNA offers a special assessment module um that would help us track the interest rate for the special assessments and just allow us to keep track of them as individuals are doing maybe ad hoc principal payments. you know, if it just it will help us track everything a lot more easily and be able to offer more options to residents in terms of how they want to make those payments. Um, so we would like to proceed with purchasing that software. We would buy it, we would sign the contract now, but because of their implementation schedule, they actually can't implement until 2027, which is actually when we would want the software. So, it's perfect. Um, in that regard, we won't pay the annual fee until it's actually implemented. And so that day one will start once once we go live. So we're not going to pay that for a year of not getting use. And then I don't think we're going to need two full training days. So the actual cost I would anticipate dollars lower they bill just based on what is actually needed.

Kelsey, this uh annual fee, do we have any guarantees that this will be locked in for a certain amount of time or is this something we could expect that you know year after year it it rises? Yep. So there I'm trying to remember the original clause. I know Chrissy read it too. Um there was a CPI restriction in terms of the increase. Yeah. I assume we pay an annual fee for BSA in the first place, right? We do, which is Yeah. I'm guessing like 50 grand. I mean, it's huge. Yeah. I can't recall off the top of my head about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And their contracts are fun. Yeah. [laughter] Glad they're fun.

They're not fun, actually. Um, can we specially assess people for quiet pickle ball paddles? I withdraw my question. Uh, any further discussion? Hearing none, I would entertain. There's probably a motion sheet somewhere. I move that the village board approve the contract of VSNA software LLC for special assessment software. Thank you. Do a second. Second. Second. Thank you. I'm giving it to Sam. Uh, any further discussion? Hearing none. All those in favor say I. Any opposed? Motion carries. We have one last thing to do. Mr. President, I move to adjourn. Thank you. Do I second? Second. Thank you, Sam. All those in favor say I. I.

Any opposed? We arejourned. Thank you all for coming.