Plan Commission - Regular Meeting

All right. It being five o'clock, I will call to order the plan commission meeting of Tuesday, July 21st. We don't need to call the roll, although we do have a quorum. The first order of business is to approve the minutes from a regular meeting of November in 2025. If anybody can remember back that far, that is how long we have been vacant as a plan commission, which is good and bad news. But would anybody like to either make a discussion or... A motion to approve.

I'll move to approve the minutes I submitted. Excellent.

Do I hear a second? A second. Thank you, Jay. Any further discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Motion carries. All right. Moving on to the public hearing. We have two items. Is anyone here for the public part of this meeting? I assume you are an applicant, yes? Yes. Okay, so right now we don't have any members of the public here for this public hearing, but I will pause for a second and then say we will then close the public hearing and move on to new business. The new business is the first item is a conditional use application for face foundry, a facial bar to be located at 330 East Silver Spring Drive.

Yes. So face foundry applied for a conditional use permit. They are looking to go into the old Wagner pediatric dentistry. That tenant space is approximately 1757 square feet. The applicant has indicated that the business will have no more than eight facial sessions occurring at the same time. That can be seen on the floor plan that was attached in the packet. They also anticipate a total of 15 employees, a mixture of both full and part-time employees. And then they are proposing business hours being Monday through Saturday and then Sunday 9 a.m. to 4 p.m. I will note that in the conditions specifically, we are looking that an interior layout is included with their application, but we'll need staff approval to ensure section 16-21E9B, which is a standard due to glazing, is met when they submit for their building plans. And then in terms of parking, this use requires approximately 16 parking stalls based on our code of requirement of two spaces per treatment station for personal services. And this facial bar is considered a personal service. And there is no dedicated off-street parking on-site available. So if the plan commission, they have the Discretion to bypass the parking requirement based on the availability in the area.

It's probably, it's probably always applicable to think about. What what business was in the space before and what the parking requirements were then because literally will. Wow. If we allowed the first one, we'll allow the second one. Typically, at this point in the game, we would ask the applicants to tell us a story and tell us what their business is all about. So it looks like Casey and Amelia, are they both applicants?

Amelia's our intern.

Oh, right. Casey. So Casey...

Hi, guys. I'll take Amelia if she wants to come over by me. Yeah, sorry. I'm in Atlanta for my son's baseball tournament, but I'm glad I could join you guys. So thank you for being flexible on this.

No problem.

Yeah. So I currently have the franchise rights for a majority of the state of Wisconsin. I have one in Appleton, which is where I live. And then I have one in the third ward, which is pretty similar, I feel like, to the layout and the situation that you guys have whitefish bay although whitefish bay is cuter and way more charming than the third ward but um the layout there's pretty similar parking i feel like would be pretty similar um and then i have a location in brookfield as well that's been open two years so um honestly we're not far off from the pediatric dentist office dental office he um was kind of open concept which i feel like a majority of dental offices typically are not Um, but when I went into a space, I was like, it's funny because we're really, our layout is not far off from what he's going to do. A majority of what we're doing is just more aesthetic, you know, to clean it up and make it a little more spa like, um, yeah. And then, yeah, all of our services, if we want to talk about parking side of it, all of our clients are usually there on average for probably about an hour to an hour and 15 minutes. So obviously my staff would be there for the full shift or entirety of the day. But clients, you know, come and go probably every hour on the hour for the most part.

Yeah, I think I'm more interested in hearing what is your business about? What would you like to tell British Bay and people who may listen to this about why you're opening and what do you do as a customer at your business?

So we're an open concept facial bar. Unlike the traditional, like if you're going to get a massage or a facial, a lot of it is essentially in a closed space. You're going to go back, get your facial, get your massage, you know, disrobe and get comfy. Whereas we are more focused on the efficiency and the whole point is to get in and to You know, we're all tight on time these days. And so the whole point is to kind of make it an in and out. We do have a membership base. So clients who come in with us will come in once a month. We focus on facials as a majority of our clients. business. But we also do some lashes and brows. But the whole point is really to be available and easy to book in so that if you're like, hey, today I have time, I'm going to check and see their schedule, hop on our app, be able to book in. And then, yeah, our pricing, we're definitely one of the most reasonable in the area. And we're able to do that just because that is a huge focus of ours. We want it to be accessible to all.

Do you have any kind of idea of the customer counts that you'll have on a daily or weekly basis?

Yeah. I would say, now you're asking me to do math. Let me get my calculator out. On a daily basis, there's going to be eight beds in that store times, let's say we're open eight hours a day, 64 clients a day. I would say on average, 50 to 60. My other stores, Tuesdays and Wednesdays tend to be a little bit slower. And then just again, similar vibe to the third ward where people are out and about on a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, they may stop by the farmer's market, they may grab a coffee and then hop into face foundry. Those are, you know, we're typically busier on like a Friday, Saturday, Sunday. But then you also like Brookfield, for example, and I kind of envision Whitefish Bay to not be far off that You know, if a mom's dropping kids off at school in the morning, then Tuesday at 10 a.m. is a great day to have some of some time to yourself. Unlike when the kids kiddos are out of school, you know, then those days tend to get busier as well. So each is a little different because our demographics are a little different. But I would expect Whitefish Bay to be more similar to both my Appleton store and, you Brookfield, at least during the week. And honestly, more like Third Ward, probably on the weekends.

Yeah. We're always just kind of interested in like, how many people are you going to draw to our downtown area? Yeah. Hearing that it's, you know, north of 40, 50 a day. That's great.

I can tell you guys, too, in terms of like my digital advertising, I don't know what it is, but my digital advertising is trends to be the highest in the entire face foundry system. They have about 80 stores open so far. Um, and I average in the third ward alone in the third ward store alone, 300 new clients every single month, month over month. So we definitely, I don't know what it is about facials and that side of the business, but it does really well in the digital advertising and getting, you know, awareness about us, but then actually getting people to then, you know, do the follow through of booking in. And so, yeah, our average is usually about 300 every month, which is awesome.

So I'm also curious when somebody gets a facial, do they do other things? Like are there synergies with, you know, there's dry bar that's a few feet away from your store and there's a massage place. Like what do people do multiple things on a day or are they just, they go get a facial and then they leave?

No, for sure. Multiple things in the day. And that's why, and like, I'm really good friends actually with joy from dry bar. So that's why this kind of worked out very perfect. We do a ton of things together in terms of like her members, maybe in January when they come in for a blowout, they get a free mini facial from face foundry. And then if our members come in in January, they get a free blowout from joy. And then yeah, I do tons of that kind of stuff. And I think especially in the Whitefish Bay community, like you're pointing out, like grabbing a coffee then at Stone Creek and then coming over to Face Foundry, that's definitely a huge, huge part of our business.

Great. That's exactly what I want to hear. Do any other commissioners have a question for the applicants? Yes.

I have one. One of the conditions that we often place on businesses on Silver Spring is related to deliveries. And we have a proposed conditional use condition. For this use of restricting hours and then deliveries to the north side of your building between the hours of 10 p.m. and 6 a.m. So between 10 p.m. and 6 a.m., no deliveries would be allowed. Is that in any way a hardship for you?

No, not at all. And quite honestly, outside of my initial deliveries of getting the beds and the larger items in, the millwork, stuff like that, none of our deliveries, everything is like, small income, you know, like we're not, we don't expect large, large deliveries, but yes, no, we're, we're easy just because we don't truly get a ton. Like that's to a minimum for sure.

Okay. Any other questions?

No, I, I just love the part of your website that says we want to touch your face. When I was going through the, the, the, your website, I thought that, I don't know, for some reason that cracked me up.

Not yours, Jay, though.

No, I was going to say, you guys, if this goes well, obviously there's ladies in this meeting, but any of you men, too, we'd love to have you guys in. I promise you'll love it.

Hey, President Buckley, it says there's a mini facial. It's 20 minutes of skincare heaven.

So I want to point out that Joel, our building inspector, is very interested in this.

He already texted me.

What did he say about it? He said, I can see me getting your lashes done.

Yeah.

All right. Is there a motion that someone could make to approve this conditional use permit?

I move approval.

Thank you. Do I hear a second? Second. Any further discussion?

Just a friendly amendment that we include the restriction on deliveries between 10 p.m. and 6 a.m. Sure. In the motion. Is that okay with you?

Absolutely.

Yes. And all the aforementioned additional conditions in the memo.

Yep.

Yep.

For the pre-development meeting.

Okay. So we have a motion on a second. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Motion carries. Good luck to you, Casey.

One question we forgot to ask. Do you, now that this is one step closer, do you have an estimated opening date?

Yeah, I'm hoping, it all kind of depends. I think we're expected to get everything set now in the next couple of days. The general contractor will be pretty much teed up and ready to go. So build out usually takes about eight weeks. So- I'm hoping to be open and enjoying being out front and enjoying your Halloween evening that I keep hearing about is the best Halloween in the whole state. Okay. Hopefully by then. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Thank you.

All right, next item is the review and action of the condition use amendment application for Starbucks to request for increased operating hours and outdoor seatings at 302 East Silver Spring Drive. Anna.

Yes. So Chelsea with Starbucks, she reached out to the village inquiring about extending their operating hours. And then also when going through that process and realizing that Starbucks initially received their conditional use approval back in 1997, there has been additional changes to our zoning code since then. and just bringing up that conditional use, amending it so they are compliant not only in terms of the operating hours, which required an amendment to our zoning code to give that 5 a.m. option, which the village board approved recently, but then also bringing their existing patio from legal nonconforming to conforming.

All right. Normally, I would say, gosh, Starbucks, tell us about your business. But I think we know pretty well. And basically, the only change here is changing the hours of operation and getting the patio to conforming. So do any commissioners have any questions for anybody?

This is just the existing patio space, correct? Okay. Yeah.

Just as long as it was mentioned in here, I have gotten at least one complaint a long time ago about the garbage can and how it's the responsibility of Starbucks to empty it and whatnot. And I'm just availing myself of that to remind everybody that there's one garbage receptacle that you're responsible for and you're cleaning it out every day, hopefully.

Great.

Well, have them listen to this on YouTube. Any further questions? Jane? No? All right. Hearing none, I would entertain a motion to amend the current conditional use permit for Starbucks. So moved. Thank you. Second. We have a motion and a second. Any further discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Motion carries. Thank you. Enjoy your early mornings. All right. Thank you, guys. Thank you. All right. So our last item here is some new business discussion on a strategic plan initiative to evaluate permitted, conditional, and prohibited uses and other standards in District 11, which is the Silver Spring Business District. And Anna, this is the 400th time you're going to give a summary of why we are here.

And at least three more times. So part of the strategic planning process, we had to generate initiatives to meet our strategic planning goals. And the initiative that came out of developing a vibrant Silver Spring district was to evaluate the District 11 permitted conditional and prohibited uses. So with that, strategic planning process. There was a focus group that from that focus group, there was some key takeaways, which were an interest in a boutique hotel, additional restaurants, more retail on first floor locations instead of professional services, and then stores that attracted people from outside the community. And then staff, in addition, has heard from the village board related to the use of drive-throughs and building height. So that was kind of our starting point for this discussion. Now, this discussion has taken place at the Village Board. It took place last week at the CDA, and now it's taking place here. And with this, it'll go back to the village board. We will summarize all the discussions that have taken place and then they will refer back to plan commission. Because that is the zoning code change process and then plan commission will make the final recommendation. back to the village board for approval. And really, it's just to generate ideas kind of on a larger scale. Obviously, I mentioned five things in my memo. And one I will note, the larger one, is the conditional uses. So we have permitted, conditional, and prohibited in our zoning code. And because of Act 67 in 2017, standards in place that make it harder for a municipality to deny approving a conditional use. So now if a municipality denies, it has to show some measurable standard that the applicant isn't meeting, whereas prior you could deny and certain standards are hard to showing hardship didn't have to be met, but now it does. So with that, the village board and CDA, they've tossed around the idea of, well, do we continue on with the existing listed, specifically listed uses for conditional use? Do we move them to be prohibited with standards or do we make conditional uses prohibited? Because having them be a conditional use, the thing that it does provide is like this evening it comes here and if there's a nuisance, we can address the nuisance. But then if they were moved to be prohibited, we could just put standards. that they would have to meet. So the conditional use, that is kind of the larger overarching discussion point this evening. Others are in terms of retail being located on the first floor, prohibiting, it seems to be consensus about prohibiting motor vehicle sales or services. Limiting interior design businesses to the first floor if they generate 50% or more of sales. So really looking to have the first floor spaces be more of a retail component instead of a professional services, which was a takeaway from the focus group. Permitting bookstores and then limiting wireless stores on the first floor spaces. to those only offering repair services to kind of get away from having a T-Mobile or AT&T come in and have it be more repair focused like the U-Brake iFix that's already existing on the corridor. And then the other discussion point was banks. And currently banks are listed as a conditional use. There has been discussion about the possibility of prohibiting banks or financial institutions on the first floor. So Additionally, there's been discussions that instead of limiting them on the first floor, that we address banks in a different way through maybe drive-thrus and only having drive-thrus be permitted being enclosed or having drive-thrus not being permitted along Silver Spring and only having the entrance and exit for the drive-thru being located off the back. or a side street. Um, and then lastly, there are two more points and then we can facilitate questions. Um, building height was also discussed and currently in district 11, four stories is permitted or 54 feet. Um, When a building side faces another zoning district, so that's essentially the south side of District 11 or the north side of District 11, then any portion of above 42 feet must be set back at least 10 feet. The village board entertained the idea of having a setback from Silver Spring as well, similar to Shorewood as stated in the memo. But the caution there is not creating a towering effect when you get to that 42 feet and above. And then lastly, a boutique hotel, which the village board limited to being 10 units or less. And then the CDA really didn't have any interest in calling out a boutique hotel. So with that, I will, if anyone wants to talk directly on a use.

Yeah, let me just set this up a little bit more too. And that is, so this is the third time I've been discussing it. This will be the second for Trustee Saunders. What Anna just went through and the conversation and the ideas that came up and the focus group, which was less of a focus group and more of a discussion amongst people that this is a menu of possible changes. And some of those items were kind of thrown in as, hey, I don't like this. Let's put that on the menu and talk about it later. So don't look at these options as inclusive of everything or mandatory, look through them and say, I care or do not care about, let's just pick on the wireless companies. Is that something we need to prohibit from Whitefish Bay? And I suppose the other thing that I just wanna emphasize that Anna mentioned, and that is, I think that one of the more important things for this body in particular is, is to move things to prohibited status, because if they are approved or conditional, it's nearly impossible to stop when somebody comes up to us and says, we wanna do this. And that's, I wish the legislature would have allowed plan commissions and local municipalities to make their own decisions, but they don't. They make it very difficult for us to say no to anybody. And the only really safety valve that we have is to move things to prohibited status if we truly do not want them in this particular zone. So with that, I can either guide the conversation as Anna was, or you can just riff on whatever you want to riff on. Does anyone have any comments they'd like to make? Or do you want me to...

I'd make one comment. It just seems to me from the discussion that the more specific we can be in our lists of what's restricted or what's conditional, the better off we'll be. And so I guess my first question, Anna, to you would be, do we have any existing businesses that are not explicitly listed as either conditional or permitted in our current code? I can think of possibly one that's a tailor shop, right? Don't we have a tailor?

And they're prohibited? Is that what you're trying to mean?

It's not listed as conditional either, I don't think. I didn't see it listed on the examples of service-oriented businesses, for example. I think it would fall under service-oriented, where it's permitted.

I think it would fall under services.

That's the type of thing I'm trying to think of. Are there things that we should add to the list? either as permitted or conditional.

I don't see Taylor.

I didn't see it anywhere.

Leather goods? Specialty retail? That's a good point. You might be able to call it a clothing store. It deals in clothing.

Well, they're not selling it. It's not retail. It's service. So I think we're really specifying between service industries and retail industries in these codes.

Well, indeed, here it is. Footwear and leather goods repair. I mean, that's very specific. Perhaps it should be expanded to like goods repair, clothing and apparel repair. There you go. Yeah, that's a good cleanup. Okay. That's a good catch. Let's talk about some of the items that did come up. And so, for example, like Boutique Hotel, like the CDA basically said, I've never heard of anybody wanting to put in a hotel in West Bay. And so it's interesting that it would actually make the jump to our zoning codes. Do you share at least the CDA's opinion that this does not need to be specified?

I guess it comes down to do you want to attract a boutique hotel to Whitefish Bay or not? If you do, then you should list it as something that's permitted or conditionally permitted. explicitly. If you don't, then I would list it as specifically something we don't do.

That's kind of where this conversation is supposed to lead. If a boutique hotel came, would you want to attract that? Would you want to approve that?

You said the definition is 10 to 100 rooms?

No, under 10.

Okay, I misunderstood that. How did that number come to be just an arbitrary?

I think we looked it up, like what boutique typically meant. But, you know, we wanted to make it 12.

I mean, I know sometimes people that are looking for places to stay in the Airbnb situation is a little bit tenuous can you get a couple nights so just from anecdotes it seems like there would be if if there was a hotel operator that expressed interest it seems like it could be of value i agree

Would it be a value? I mean, then they start thinking about use of space, right? Is it more a value than other spaces, than other uses, which most likely would be office space, right? Because you've got to go upwards. You're not going to be on the first floor.

Well, I think that's part of the conditional use was that the first floor had to be a lobby and the

Or, yeah, an ancillary use.

Okay.

So like a bar.

The actual hotel rooms would have to be.

Second story and up.

Right. That's kind of where we're going, which typically would be office space because that's what we have on second floors.

Right. I would be more strict on parking requirements for that type of a use than I would on other uses. That's a good point. Yeah. That's a good point.

So I guess I'm going to keep kind of looking at Anna and see, do you think that that discussion fulfills the planned commission's desire? It seems that... Jane, did you have any commentary?

No, I just don't know if there's a developer wanting to do a boutique hotel with less than 10 rooms.

Very true. Yeah.

but if you know it's the it is the concept that do you want to attract one right uh all right moving on uh what let's see here additional restaurants more retail stores and what's the next thing like um do you have a bullet point list uh do you want to talk about financial institutions yeah let's go to that was going to be my cleanup but oh sorry no that's fine we can do building right No, no, no. We can go with banks. Where's the list of, like, we were talking about wireless?

It's page three or four of my memo.

Your numbers aren't, you don't have numbers.

I'm looking at the packet. Drive-thru, ATMs, building height.

It's right after the list of all the uses.

Okay. Let's just go on to, we'll go on to financial institutions. Um, and, and we can kind of tie into that with drive-thrus. There were, there was definitely positive conversation about saying, you know, is, is a drive-thru a beneficial part and a good use of land for Whitefish Bay? And that, and that's not just financial institutions. That's, that could be a coffee place. That could be Chick-fil-A. Um, And so there has been conversation about why would we have use of drive-throughs in Bay? Should we go so far as to prohibit them? And then of course, flipping all the existing ones to non-conforming. It is true though, and it should be noted that there was conversation with the CDA where we said, look, The drive-through for Associated Bank is in the driveway. I'm sorry, in the alleyway. And it kind of makes sense. It's not on Silver Spring. We just approved at the CDA and CARC a new structure on Lidell and Silver Spring that is a bank, a retail spot, and 18 apartments. And through that, although enclosed, is a drive-through. And quite frankly, the drive-thru was not controversial. It was, you know, it's inside of a building. You can't see it. There's maybe, is there something special about that? Should we prohibit outdoor drive-thrus? Should we prohibit drive-thrus that appear only on Silver Spring? Like there's a lot of different ways that you could prohibit this in a, and really what What the goal is, for drive-thrus, there's two kind of goals, right? The first is use of land. And the second is, without the ability to have a drive-thru, would another bank come to Whitefish Bay and make it our ninth bank?

We need another bank.

Right, right. And then the next piece is we'll talk about financial institutions. But let's focus on drive-thrus for a minute. And do you have any conversation about that?

I... I see no reason to have, and not only do I see no reason, but I would not want a Silver Spring facing drive-thru. The closest thing that The closest thing to it that I can think of right now, and I know it's in Glendale, but that Chase branch at Lydell and Silver Spring, their drive-through exits onto Silver Spring, but you can't get to it from Silver Spring. I'm okay if... I'm okay with those types of things. I'd prefer that we don't have drive-thrus just because of... Silver Spring is very busy. It is very... It is very walkable and bikeable. And I don't think that we need to attract a business that would absolutely demand a drive-through on our main street.

Yeah, it seems contradictory to our goal of increasing foot traffic on Sylvia Spring.

Because people don't get out of their cars.

Yeah, there's no reason to leave your car. But I think just having them in the alley doesn't necessarily... always resolved. I mean, we had the whole issue with Johnson Bank where we had denied it at one point because of the safety concerns of the residents in that community, part of the community.

We denied the ATM. The ATM, yeah. Drive-thru was accepted.

Because it's underneath the parking structure at Johnson Bay. Is that right? Yeah.

So they came to us three years ago and asked. And I don't think we denied it. I think we tabled it. The neighbors were very unhappy with many things. They weren't happy primarily with the traffic that went into the alley. And they thought that the ATM would increase the alley traffic and the headlights and whatnot and safety issues. And just to complete that story, I think we tabled it for one meeting and had a number of residents show up at the second meeting where they had done some studies on traffic and how many people would use the ATMs. I don't believe any residents showed up and it passed and we approved the use.

And how would we define what is Silver Spring facing versus not Silver Spring facing?

legit question um i think the easiest answer would be something that has an entrance point or an entrance or exit okay into that an entrance for sure um i think the way that that the chase i think the chase um the way the chase is set up i works especially because you can't turn left out of there you must turn uh to the east you can't turn west you know um i wouldn't want an entrance on on silver spring um and then i'm not just thinking about banks i mean you think about if there was you know some sort of uh but would you want an exit i i wouldn't just wouldn't bother you it wouldn't bother me if it were Now, I guess the exit doesn't bother me. Had we had this discussion two years ago, I might have said yes. But as someone who uses that bank branch, I've never seen issues going out of there, especially since it's a right turn only.

Yeah, I use it too.

As a comment, we should also pick on BMO, which is right next to it. It's right next to it. And that has an entrance, although I think you have to- It's off the alley.

Yeah.

Well, the alley seems to be, but I mean, there's an arrow pointing in. So I think it's both. Oh, wait, no, that's a street. I'm sorry. That's a street arrow. So it is coming in from the alley and out to the exit.

If it's easier than for us to say entrance or exit, that's fine. I'm not going to throw up my hands and fight for it or anything, but it's nothing that particularly bothers me.

So I'm sorry, are you putting yourself in the camp of prohibit drive-thrus, entrance or exits on Silver Spring?

I can go either way with the exit. I definitely don't want an entrance. Okay.

Anybody else want to chime in? I mean, again, this is kind of a, this is the beginning of the focus groups, right? Where we have actual plan commissioners saying, this is what I prefer. This is what, as a commissioner, I prefer to have on in our business district.

I'd say given the objective, I would lean towards just prohibiting entrances or exits from conditional use, and then you can just put it as prohibited.

No issue with that. I'm with that.

I agree with that, yeah.

OK. Yeah, I agree.

Jane, you're in agreement?

Yes, with entrances and exits.

Excellent. So then the next piece would be, what about financial institutions on the first floor? This is the nuclear option. The reality is that we, I think it's eight and I think we're building our ninth or we have seven and we're building our eighth bank. That's a lot of banks. And if you include banks that are two blocks away, I think we get up to double digits easily. I know that as a, speaking for the community in general, and I know that, and it's interesting, you'll find one out of X number of people who will say, I don't mind banks at all. But the vast majority of villagers are, please don't build another bank. Please don't do that.

Well, I, yes, but going back to your, there's nothing we can do except for is you just brought up this nuclear option. Um, this is an incredibly attractive area for banks for a lot of different reasons. And while I'm not team bank, um, We have the same number of banks on Silver Spring than Shorewood does on Oakland in the same one-mile stretch. I counted once when I was bored driving down Oakland. Same number. In fact, we might have one fewer. Now it'll be tied. If we want to thoroughly discourage these institutions, these organizations from building here, then we need to do something radical, as you mentioned, not being on the first floor. But I don't, that kind of goes against the, that kind of goes against

Things I believe in. At the village board meeting, just for you guys, one of our trustees is a developer type person, and he understands or has a theory or has information. And two years ago, this almost happened, where Associated Bank Next Ascendix was gonna raise their building, do some modification and add a collectivo to it. And it's been spoken that that bank is inferior to other associated bank locations and that they want to do something like this and they want to downsize the size and add something else. So to have that in our minds, if we were to prohibit first floor banks, suddenly we, we, we make it difficult for that kind of development to occur because man, when, when that was suggested two and a half years ago, people are excited. Hey, this is great. Shrink the bank, put up a proactivo. That's great. We want something like that. So I'm, I'm, I'm trying to give you both arguments and, um,

Or, you know, but what we could do if there's the whole, and maybe this is pie in the sky thinking, if a bank really wanted to come to Whitefish Bay, they would need to find a partner to go in on the first floor, such as a collectivo or something of that ilk.

Very true. And I don't think we ever figured out the final answer on could associated bank be a PDD. Because it is next to a PDD. It is adjacent to one. And I never got the official answer if we could do it or not. I'm kind of looking out in the audience here.

I think it cannot. Not only does it spur. I know there's a deduction, but.

I read it.

I read what you said to me. Or if it's Jason Paul with Browns or like this. whatever, or if it's an extension of an existing PDD.

Which we could make it an extension. I mean, that's, I don't know how hard that is. That's easier said than done, but.

We can't amend the PDD for, we can't amend the PDD for CENIX for.

For two different owners.

Oh, so I apologize. I made a note. So we'll get you the official answer. Let's figure that out. Look at it. But I also, I think the question is broader than that. So if a use is legal non-conforming, it also restricts the ability to invest in the property. So the board members here are familiar with 5111 LIDL. We can continue to use that, but we as a village would like to invest in that property and we can't. because it is legal nonconforming in the city of Glendale. If you exceed 50% of the valuation at the time the property moves from legal to legal nonconforming, so that means it's like a frozen value, then you are no longer legal nonconforming, which means that you can't have that use in that building. So it also, moving forward, will significantly limit their ability to invest in those existing properties.

Let me ask you the question, though. if it was legal non-conforming, who's the enforcer of that 50%? Is it the municipality? It's the village. And so couldn't we just say we're not enforcing that?

The board at this time could, but it's very, very risky with property rights, right? So then if a future board were to decide, we now all of a sudden want to enforce that. It's not like it's sunsets or changes. Like at any time you can go back and look and say, we have evidence of this level of investment. You're no longer legal non-conforming.

Who sets the 50% number?

It's the state statute. Yeah. I only know this because I have had to learn too much because of our situation. But I do think that's something for everyone to consider is that ability to invest in existing banks just to maintain them, just to keep it up. There's some exceptions though. You can do some level of maintenance, but like in our case, a roof replacement is, is potentially something that counts towards that valuation. It has to be looked at.

There's no such thing as grandfathered provisions in this.

Because I've been trying to think through it. So I asked legal counsel that question, and his answer was no, you can't.

You can't extend once it's determined that it's legal nonconforming. The use can remain, but you can't extend the life of the use. You can't do things that add to that use continuing on.

I think what you were saying is a bank built prior to this date would be allowed to rebuild. However, future banks can't, new banks can't build. And that was the question I posed to legal counsel. And the answer was, no, you can't treat one group differently if the use is the same, even if when they came in was at a different time.

It's interesting you can't treat one group differently for maintenance purposes. You know, like there's a vast difference between creation and maintenance.

That's my concern. These businesses came here in good faith. We permitted their use. They invested in the community. And if we change the rules now, you know, is that really fair to that business?

Here's another legal question. You're absolutely right. Another legal question is if we if we did this prohibition on the first level, isn't that 50 percent of the first level? You know what I mean? And so if they're associated blank, do they have a second level? I don't think they do. It's a one-story building. But if they wanted to build upwards, that would be fine. You know what I mean? The prohibition is only on the first level.

We'll have to figure that out. I'm not sure how that's.

Keep poking the.

I have been thinking about it, but I think in reality, what I've learned is just that the state statute is very clear and kind of at any point it can be triggered. And so you'd kind of. It would be a bit of a mess for the property owners.

I don't think we want to kick out anybody who's here. We just don't want to get more. Exactly.

The thing is, I assume that this could be, is there a time period where you can, the board can change the, what's conforming? I mean, what happens in, I mean, banks merge, they, strategies change, they could go out of business. What, what happens five, 10 years down the line.

And that's to Kelsey's point of like what happens.

Yeah.

So I don't know how much we want to put our thumbs on the scale and restricting, you know, is there any way that we can put a provision into our, our, rules that say no more than X percent of the retail space available in District 11 can be for any one use?

Let's look into that.

That's a good question. I think that might be better Because the other problem I have is that we would have then, what, eight banks that are non-conforming? And you would not want to have, 10 years from now, those banking institutions or those buildings going into disrepair or not continuing their investment in Whitefish Bay because of that non-conforming requirement.

That's another question.

Yeah. Let's approach this every way we possibly can think of. Yeah.

Okay. Just the only other thing I'd say in this conversation about the financial institutions is recognize they're not bad tenants. Right. You know, they're very reliable tenants. The banks come and they stay. They pay their taxes. And, you know, we see in this commission that, the desirable boutique uses of retail come and go year after year after year unsuccessfully, you know? So, I mean, you have to have some anchor institutions within your... Yeah, these aren't fly-by-night...

True. You know, and I... I get it, but at the same time, you know, to your point, if... If... We have a solid business who wants to be part of our business district, far be it for me to thumb my nose at it.

It's just we have this opportunity cost of the banks taking up such a large percentage of the space and blocking other uses. That's the big concern.

I think my perspective has always been about how utilized is a space, particularly by villagers, right? And would you rather have a solid, amazing banking tenant for 20 years where they're always paying the rent and they're keeping their property up and they're paying their taxes and everything's great about their property. But two residents go there every week versus 10 stores that last two years. They cycle through every couple of years because they can't make it. But dozens of villagers go and enjoy that property for those 20 years. I tend to look at the banks as just black holes of space. I don't bank at any of those banks. I will never go to any of them. There's just no point. And that's, I think, the attitude of many people saying, these are just black holes. I will never visit this location. It's like a, I don't know, typewriter repair place that I don't have any typewriters. So that does nothing for me and it does nothing for 14,000 people, plus or minus.

Well, I think- the same could be said about other types of businesses.

And so banks get picked on because they're kind of the poster child of that conversation.

And it's the topic du jour because of federal regulations and changing the way they did, the rush for financial institutions to come to a place like Whitefish Bay, you know, happened over the past seven to 10 years. So it's not like, you know, there's a reason that this happened. It's not just... it's not just because we had open spaces. They wanted to, they had to be here almost. And it was more attractive for them to be in Whitefish Bay than other places within the 53217, 53211, 53212.

I think we've probably gotten a lot of conversation. There's no votes. There's no answers. We've now probably gotten 20 different opinions from 20 people.

Mm-hmm.

and so at some point we'll have to make the sausage, and I don't know what's going to happen, but something will show up, and we'll either vote it up or down. Let's move on quickly to just a few other items. Permitting bookstores, I think that's probably not controversial.

Oh, the retail ones? Yeah. I'm in agreement on all four of those.

Yeah, I am too. All four.

Limiting wireless stores to the first floor only to those offering repair services. So if, for example, Verizon Wireless wanted to put up a store, you're saying you want to make that a prohibited use.

Yeah. Well, limiting could be conditional, too.

But if it's conditional, it's not limiting, as we said earlier.

Yeah. We have no authority. So we'd have to make it prohibited.

You know what? I guess I've never asked anyone, what is the rationale behind that? What is it about a Verizon store that makes you say, we don't want that on the first floor in Whitefish Bay? What is that that stops you? Is it just, I'll never go to that store or that attracts the wrong people? Which is not, that's a silly statement.

So as someone who used to work for one of those companies, I have no idea why people, I mean, in Whitefish Bay, I think it would be incredibly attractive. The one, the Verizon store at Bayshore is constantly packed. The, the spectrum store that I used to, I used to visit a lot for, for infield work in Brookfield was, was very popular and it was in a, you know, a strip mall type of an area. I don't, I mean, yes, I think... There's a difference between the Spectrum store in Brookfield and the Spectrum store on Capitol Drive across from Walmart. I mean, that's a true story. Why we would want to poo-poo... A respectable company like a Verizon or Spectrum or T-Mobile from coming into Whitefish Bay, I don't know.

And as a comment, we just got done saying how valuable it is to have tenants that are there forever or who are consistent. And those cellular companies, although they may merge and whatnot, they are making money.

Now, what I will say, now, does this... Was this about companies specifically or mobile phone stores? Because there's a difference between a Spectrum or a Verizon store and a mobile phone store that is not connected to any of the companies. Yeah.

And something that came up about Apple. An Apple store wanted to open on Silver Spring.

Okay, bring me your finest meats and cheeses. But what I'm saying is there's a huge difference between some random, you can buy a cell phone here and take it to your, as opposed to a Verizon store spectrum.

Like more of a Pago mobile store.

Yes.

Yeah, because again, it depends how you define it. I mean, I think of wireless carrier as Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile.

I would be fine with wireless carriers, mobile phone stores, I think.

That's a different, that's hardware, a different, yeah.

That's a, those are two different things to me.

I agree. Yeah. I mean, more retail on first floor and attractive shops. So whatever, I think the rationale is whatever's unattractive to someone about, I would say the only charitable reading I could put forth is that when I think of a wireless carrier retail setup, I think strip mall or mall like Bayshore as opposed to like charming downtown malls.

One of the things I'll say about these mobile carriers, as time has evolved, mobile carriers are so much more than cell phones now. You know, so you go, you know, Spectrum offers everything. Verizon offers – doesn't offer everything, but, I mean, and so – Yeah, I agree. So you've got a possibility where if you've got a one-stop shop for people who need to come in and figure out something that's wrong with or wants to investigate... Yes, I know what you mean. You've seen plenty of wireless carriers in malls. I don't think something would stick out like a sore thumb if T-Mobile, unless they wanted to make the building pink.

Right. And in terms of businesses change over time. So whatever you're defining it now might not be applicable in five years.

So I think I'm hearing, I don't think I've heard anybody say, I want to prohibit wireless stores.

What I've heard is just no pay-go type.

Right. And that's hard to define. I mean, maybe we could come up with a definition. We'll try. It's multi-carrier.

How about multi-carrier mobile phone? Well, some of those stores have no carrier. Like it's... Right. You go buy the phone, the hardware. So it's...

But you don't want to capture Apple either if, you know...

Right. So... I tend to think this isn't really that big of an issue. It's not. I don't know. But somebody brought it up and now you've got to talk about it. Sure. There you go. So I think that that would be our recommendation, unless somebody says I'm summarizing that incorrect, that we do not so much care about limiting the wireless stores. Um, limiting interior design business on the first floor only to those offering retail sales. So this is basically a shot to say, we, we don't want services. I mean, it is kind of very specifically aimed at interior design, which I think that's really specific. Like what if it was an architecture company? Like what I.

That's an office to me. They want a showroom though. An architecture firm is an office. There are lots of places that offer showrooms but that are that are retail. I mean, you look at Garrett's or if I'm pronouncing it correctly, that's retail, but it's also services, you know, services, but it's, there's a retail function, the kitchen and bath store. I, I would, I don't, I don't see the need to... I think there's a big difference between that and a firm or a group that doesn't want to sell you something. That would be an office to me.

So are you interested in limiting or not? Yes. You are interested in limiting? Yes.

Limiting and making it more broader to more service-oriented.

Well, I guess let's focus on prohibiting. Do you want to prohibit interior design businesses on the first floor? Because that's really where we're going here.

Are they going to sell me something? Everything on Silver Spring, there should be some sort of a retail portion of it.

And if someone comes in, could they design around that limitation by putting a stand of pillows at the front?

Well, frequently we'll say like 50% of your blah, blah, blah has to be sales. That's one way off. Sure. I don't care. That doesn't bother me. I don't look at... We have one store that fits this and we would be making it in the non-conforming and... It doesn't bother me. Do I think that there's a better use? Perhaps, but they're there forever. They've been good renters. They keep their shop well. They're non-conforming and that restricts their ability to keep up.

They're building, I don't like.

Although they'd be a renter, so that's a little bit.

What?

Yeah, I wonder how that works.

Yeah, that's a good question.

You know, if you're a renter, well, and could you get away, could like Associated Bank sell to a company and then rent it and then suddenly lease it back? We need Jacob here. All right. Prohibiting motor vehicle sales and or service. I can kind of get service, but I don't know about, imagine a Tesla dealership wants to open up a showroom and park two cars in their showroom. You could probably fit two cars and start selling that way. Is that something you want to prohibit? Yes. You're a yes? Yes.

Yes.

Is it realistic that they'd have two cars? I've never seen a motor vehicle place that has two cars. It's a matter of how much space it takes.

But you'd have to do test drive. I think just prohibit it. It might be something that down the road we'd revisit depending on what happens with cars, but right now with the cars out there, I think It's not a conducive use of space on Silver Spring.

I have a strange question.

There's multiple models of the sedan, by the way.

What is the definition? I mean, this is going to sound ridiculous, but what is the definition of a motor vehicle? Must it have a motor? And I'm thinking like e-bikes. Yeah.

Would this be prohibiting that? Yeah, once you get to a certain speed, I believe it would be a vehicle. And I wouldn't want to prohibit e-bike sales.

No bike shop can survive without selling e-bikes right now.

Any self-propelled land vehicle used to transport people or property on roads, if it is powered by an engine or a motor, such as gas, diesel, or electric.

Maybe narrow the definition of car dealer or something. Is there, you know, automobile or a truck?

What about truck?

Yeah.

I don't care. I don't think it's ever going to happen. I don't care enough to prohibit it. That's just my take on it. But it's weird to think of where's the auto industry going and imagine 20 years from now and China is selling BYD cars and they do it from an office and you just go there and take the keys.

They don't do that storefront in a mall. I've seen them in Boston, New York. It's just like a mall storefront. You go in, put the order in, and they deliver the car to you.

Yeah.

So, like, I don't have a problem with that.

I wouldn't prohibit an office that is, oh, by the way, conducting millions of dollars worth of inventory.

Yeah, and there's something very different about that than a big Ford dealer that's picking up half the... And that's never going to happen.

And that's, you know... That's fine, then. Okay, was there... Anna, do you think we've hit all of the... We didn't do the building heights thing.

Building heights. Building heights.

Building heights. Okay, so do you understand the concept of the setback on the fourth floor and how we're currently setting it back from basically neighborhoods? And now we're considering, well, in order to eliminate the canyoning effect, let us also move it in from Silver Spring. When that was brought up, the village board was like, that sounds like a great idea. What does it sound like to you?

Meaning if something hit, I just want to clarify, if something went to a fourth floor, that fourth floor need to be back.

Yeah, I like that myself.

I don't. I don't. If we're talking about allowing four floor buildings, then that I think is the way that we need to look at it. Fourth floor is locked.

We have one now.

johnson johnson oh yeah yeah yeah sorry and and everything about the tower is set back i don't even think about it yes you're right with that going on conforming because the tower isn't set back is uh johnson bank has they have patios on the top don't they yes yeah so i think it's it would be conforming but well and the abuse still conforms so that fifty percent doesn't okay okay not informing structure or not informing usage

Got it. Okay.

Okay. Got it.

All right.

Understood.

And just a point of clarification. With that for the floor or above a certain height, I think you've got to hold those, but currently you're building a residential, you have to set that in front of what would be the back of the building now. So your building will end up So that's kind of where there was a little pause, I think, in the whole towering effect of it.

Yeah, it's funny you say towering effects as if it's a bad thing. I think that's great. Let's do it.

Yeah, it would just be said in Google Cloud, which I don't call it. And if you enjoy that building, put it back into the building.

The other piece that we should be cognizant of is simply that does limit and limits penthouses, limits apartments on the top floor, limits buildings on that floor. It shrinks their square footage. We might not get our hotel if we do this. True, and then you're all set. Which everybody wants. So I personally love that idea. And how about this? Does anybody hate that idea of doing an offset on Silver Spring on the fourth floor?

No.

OK. All right. Did we leave anything else that you want to have input on there, Anna?

I do have a question. Yeah, go. Right now, professional offices are permitted on the second floor and above. And it talks about medical practitioners being on that list of what's permitted on the second floor or above. How does that impact the Aurora Clinic? This is not a second floor.

How does that impact what?

The Aurora Clinic. Has that become non-conforming then?

Maybe they received conditional use approval.

Well, they did. As we did it back in the day.

Where did Wagner Pediatric move? Second floor.

And then if you look at like Barton Orthodontics, they don't have office space on the first floor. You have to take the steps up.

Yeah. I mean, I view the clinic as another anchor.

Yes.

Yeah.

Well, this is existing. So This isn't like proposed, a proposed list. This is an existing.

This question was whether they're not conforming. Which it kind of seems like if that's existing, then they probably are. Unless there was.

We can look up the approval to see.

We should probably figure out if they are and somehow word something standalone first floors not conforming.

Please don't tell my former employer that I was the one who raised the question.

We're sorry. You're going to have to leave. You know what? I don't think there are any other standalones.

I thought we made an exception and found a way to make an exception at the time. I just don't remember what it was.

Sure.

So I was concerned that we're now applying rules to, say, the banks. If we were to do that, that would turn them into nonconforming. My question really was, does this turn the Brewer Clinic into nonconforming as it's currently? It's not because we're not changing that.

OK. Yeah, it's.

It is what it is currently.

Okay. Well, then I dropped the question. It's a good question.

I'm not trying to raise a can of worms. All right.

Any other?

We missed anything.

And you feel free to continue to think about these things. And if you had other input, you can always send it to Anna.

I just want to get clarity on. So right now, if a conditional use is not or if a use isn't listed, we have a wraparound clause that it's a conditional use. is do we want to continue on with that or there was discussions that that wraparound cause clause would become if it is not listed it's a prohibited use oh it's a prohibitive nice yeah you're you're doing the inverse and saying don't come knocking are there ways around the prohibited clause like

Other than that.

Yeah, you can, but it's about three months. Which we've done. And a lot of meetings, yeah.

Well, which we've done. And let me just, let's just bring up dog grooming. So, you know, we needed to have dog grooming in the code and it came to us. We, you know, Village Board gave it to the Planning Commission. Planning Commission gave it right back with a recommendation. We did it. I mean, it was the span of, weeks yeah we maybe like seven weeks we got it done yeah seems smart to flip it flip it because it gives us control over what can otherwise we have no no standing to right yeah that does i mean we were earlier saying for the sake of conversation we were early saying oh if you wanted a boutique hotel this is how you would i advertise the fact that you want that if you do then flip everything and say hey everything's prohibited you're going to get the new whiz bang technology company that doesn't fit into this and they're going to say oh well whitefish bank's got this prohibition on this so i we don't want to go through the hassle of seven weeks which would definitely happen i mean that kind of thing plays into the minds of you know people who are renting spaces yeah does does flipping it

make it look like we have a virtual closed sign?

I would love to know what communities have it. If other communities have flipped it, what is it like for them?

That's the one thing I'd be afraid of, is that it makes us look unattractive to potential... I mean, we already have... We already have struggles for other reasons, attracting new businesses. I wouldn't want to put.

We'd be unattractive to prohibited to those that are not on the list. That's for sure. But I don't think we would be unattractive to those on the list. Yeah, that's true.

How much of an edge case do you think something not on the list is? And then the next. slim tiny possibilities well i'm sorry no i'm i misunderstood your question do we think that we will have yeah some business that is not already contemplated in the code for use cases that wants to come in but is decides hey there's a close sign here so we're not gonna

Like after I leave Village Board and want to open my bar.

I'm sorry, go ahead.

Like when I leave Village Board and want to open my bar.

So there is a cost, unless you think the marketing damage or cost is so high that it's worth relinquishing.

That's a good point.

Control over something else.

How often are we going to benefit from the fact that we've flipped it and it's prohibited? That's probably pretty little. Right now, the ones that we want, for example, financial institutions, we can't do that. We're struggling to do that. Versus mystery company number seven comes in and we say, aha, we have prohibited that. So you're probably right. When you do a cost-benefit of flipping it, the benefits are probably pretty low because of the mystery company that we're expecting.

Unless it's such a bad type of business that we wouldn't want the downside.

That's a really good question for us to discuss. It really is. Think of some technological... advancement thing virtual ping pong virtual pickleball i don't know that doesn't somehow doesn't fit into what we're approving and they go yeah no that's that's prohibited we don't want any virtual pickleball in whitefish bay when the reality is is we that would be amazing for a lot of people

I mean, a lot of the things that we wouldn't want attracted to us don't come to us anyway because our rents are too high for them to make a profit.

I was trying to be nice by not saying that, but yes, that's the problem we have.

I think that that's partially not the case, but I'm not smart enough to answer that.

We're not getting dollar stores on Silver Spring because they couldn't afford it. Which we wouldn't. Yeah. Well, we don't say we don't allow them. That's true. But we're not going to get them because they wouldn't make any money. They'd lose money because of the cost of the rent space.

You got what you think you need? I mean, David, that was good. That had to come up before in terms of a lens to look at that through. That may be the accurate lens. Anybody have any other questions? comments about any of this and again if you if you if you do have a revelation feel free to send it on to anna because we're we're in like the fourth inning of this maybe the fifth the fourth fourth and so before we get to the eighth and ninth where we actually put pen to paper and say this is what we're changing and this these the votes and here it comes back to this again so all right that is the end of our uh agenda tonight all we need is a uh Motion to adjourn. Second. And David seconded. And all in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Motion carries. We're adjourned. Thank you for spending an hour and 17. Well, we haven't talked in six months.