Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

I'd like to call this planning commission meeting to order for 09/08/2025.

Recording. The

Westlake Planning Commission comprised of the Kaia's Sunshine. The procedure the meeting The commission will then approve the minutes of the previous meeting. The council representative will then present the council report. Commission business. When the project is called, please come to the podium.

Place your drawings on the document table, and they will then be projected on the screen for all to see. The applicant or representative making a request, state their name and address for the record. Please make a short presentation speaking into the microphone. Everyone making comments or presentation to the commission must speak into the microphone. City staff will give a staff report on the project. We will then hear from the audience. Any member of the audience that wishes to speak will have to speak into the microphone and state their name and address for the record. We ask that audience members speak one at a time after giving their name and address. This is for the purpose of the minutes for the meeting. Please speak clearly.

The applicant will respond to public comments. Again, we ask that people speak one at a time. The Planning Commission members will have an opportunity to make comments and ask any questions that they may have. The Commission will then take action.

Great. Thank you. Roll call, please.

Bill Ragneaux. Here. Smith. Here. Van Dyke. Here. Jones. Here. Belcom. Here. We do have a quorum.

Thank you. Approval of the minutes from seven 07:25. Can I have a motion,

Motion to approve the minutes from seven 07:25?

Second. Roll call, please.

Smith? Yes. Van Dyke? Yes. Jones? Yes. Belcone? Yes. Del Reigno? Yes. Motion

carries. Approval of the minutes for

eight 04:25, please.

Motion to approve the minutes from eight 04:25. Second.

Roll call please.

Van Dyke. Yes. Jones. Yes. Del Cone. Yes. Del Reigno. Yes. Smith. Yes. Motion carries.

Thank you. Councilman Van Dyke do you have a council report?

Nothing to report.

Okay thank you very much. I think we're going to go right into business. The first item on the agenda was withdrawn by the applicant Hail Mary's Bar and Grill. So we struck struck that from the agenda tonight.

Right.

Okay. Great. Second item on the agenda is ordinance twenty twenty five dash 58 it's a conditional use permit for seven brew

and as we have in the past we'll also take the development plan at

the same time thank you

okay and I'll I'll run through my understanding of what has changed since the last meeting. The design has been changed by 180 degrees. Entrance and exit is along the north side now previously the south side. And this is to eliminate the conflicts especially with the closer proximity to Detroit Road along that main drive. And the other main change really has to do with the signature blue color on the canopy structure.

So they have previously it was in both places the canopy and the roof. Here they've got a couple options that you can see at the right. One is canopy only. The other is roof only. And if you do one is 144 square feet over for signage. The other one is 31 square feet over for signage. So I've got the August submitted drawings here. And you can kind of see it's a little small. I've got bigger drawings. But you can see how that flips around.

This is a conditional use permit as well. The stacking lanes has changed a little bit. I believe it was 27 previously it's 23. Now A code requires 12. So it still is nearly double.

That also you know in addition to that there's more room for vehicles a little bit to the north of course in that case it's going to interfere with some other traffic. And then also along the main drive from Detroit Road there's so there's more stacking space before you would actually ever back up onto Detroit Road but still would cause other conflicts within the center. But again it's 23 is what is being provided for almost double what's required by code. Building materials and signage does have to align with the West Bay Plaza standards. The new design does this except for the blue color is the one exception.

But you have determined that that would count against signage. So that would be okay. On the other head other thing in the code parking must be set back at least 50 feet from the right of way. It's about two fifty feet from the right of way. So that's okay with that. And the HVAC location at screening we know that it's going to be parapet walls. They've got mechanical screens called out. So that's a standard condition for screening that we always require. So we can make sure that that's being dealt with properly. The face brick, thin brick veneer the only change with this is you had options last time and you all zeroed in on the option that you've got here.

The Canyon brick and shale brown color and the vintage brick and white wash color as well. So that's the change there. And so Pacific Blue that's how that's being handled is the one thing that you're going to have to deal with with those couple of options. You'll see them in just a second. Again classification of signs you have determined that that should count against their signage.

So if you would allow the canopy columns in Pacific Blue that's 144 square feet over. If you do the roof coping cap and soffit in Pacific Blue that's only 31 square feet over for signage. So here's a couple of options. You can see how it changes. And of course the these are just ones that we didn't have replacements for.

Landscaping still great landscaping plan. Come out ahead with trees which is always good. So no issues with that. So two things you're going to make a recommendation on at some point is the ordinance and then a second one is the development plan of course and most of those things have not changed the second one is the it's a lighting and the standard in this case because we it's just to ensure that any new parking lot lighting matches what's already in the center so that's why you're seeing that. And then three has changed. Obviously you've got to you know if you're going to make a recommendation you have to figure out what you're going to do with that Pacific blue color. Thank you.

Thank you Mr. Biddell. The applicant like to come forward. We'll need your name and address, please, for the record.

I haven't been in Westlake for a while. Is this the proper microphone?

Perfect. Thank you.

My name is Bob Konstan, k o n s t a n d. 2166 Charles Lane, Akron, Ohio 44333. I'm the attorney representing the applicant tonight.

Thank you.

And I have with me our whole team. We're gonna try to answer as much many as your questions as as you have. We have operations people. We have our design and engineering people. And we did bring a traffic person to try to address whatever your traffic concerns are. Great. If I may, I know this is the third time. This is my first time here. But I'd I'd like to just summarize with you what the Seven Brews operation is very quickly and go over that because it is rather unique. Matthew, identify yourself for

the record. Matthew Ameth. 5831 Stuart Road, 7 Thank you, everyone. Nice to see you all again. Seven Brew is a, coffee and drink, no food, double drive through, operation.

We have members in the, drive through taking orders with tablets, members inside of the building making coffees, and then members of our staff bringing those coffees to to the vehicles with the double drive through lane that allows us to get our customers in and out in a four four four to four and a half minute, wait time. It is that speed because we don't serve food so we can move quickly through the operation. And with the double lanes, if somebody in front of you is, is still waiting for their order and you've received yours, it gives you the ability to use the other lane to, to get out, most of the time. But, again, appreciate everybody's time. We put a lot of work, and listened to everybody's comments from the last time and really tried to put our best foot forward with this new site plan based on everybody's comments.

So as Bob said, we're happy to answer any questions and go through kind of how we landed on the latest.

Great. Thank you.

Thank you. We

do have our engineers. If you'd like some comments about the 180 degree flip and how that worked out, we'd like to just sort of summarize that for you because that's a huge change from where we were last time.

Okay.

Should we be able to zoom in at all?

State your name, please.

Alan Wiley, 565 White Pond Drive, Akron, 44320.

Thank you.

Yep. So we we listened to you folks in the last several meetings. A lot of people had some concerns about the traffic here and dumping all of our cars exiting and drive through out in this area right here. So we did flip the entire building around the entire site and now we have all of our cars entering right here, going around and exiting here. And what that does is it eliminates the conflict that everyone was kind of concerned about right here with our cars exiting and then getting into this exit lane going out to Detroit.

And then also any eliminates any concern of the bank patrons coming across here and possibly blocking the drive through exit. So we put all the cars back here, was discussed in the meetings. Again, we have, you know, a pretty good queue, almost twice as much as as Jim said, as what is required. And then the option to either make a left and go this way to get out or make a right and be able to exit this way or even if you wanted to go to the bank or come up this way for some reason you can do that. So we have some more options with this. Again, all based on your guys' comments and recommendations in the previous meetings. Happy to answer any questions.

Thank you. I think we'll start with Planning Commission questions and then we'll ask for audience participation. But councilman Van Dyke, you wanna go first?

I don't really wanna go first

but I Thank

you for making these alterations. But let's let's so let's talk first about the site. And I I think flipping it has has helped it. But here's my I still have a concern. I actually went and drove it pretending I was getting a coffee today. And so the the one concern I have is when you come in to make the the to drive in, to swing around, I I mean, have you looked at the the the turn radius and all that?

Yeah. We ran an auto turn, and that's kind of how we ended up with where we're at. We have the ability to put a car, we have the ability to put a, essentially have a car make a right hand turn and have a car here before it makes a turn in, but we did run an auto turn to have cars make that turn.

Yeah, without having to swing into the opposite lane to get Or

right now, the way we have it, yeah, it's not gonna swing into this lane, but we have this extra wide lane so they can swing and get either into this lane or that lane.

Alright. And then the other question and this is, you know, from the very beginning this has been, you know, I guess my concern, maybe I didn't express at the first meeting was just while this is a lot, you know, a big parking lot, there's still it's it's, you know, it's the location with the adjacent building, uses. And so, you know, we have Chipotle at the corner there. And so there's people going in and out picking up their lunches or dinners. And then their main door is there.

So they are parking right now. They park there and then, you know, the which is now part of what you're proposing. And I I guess I have a little bit of a concern as somebody pulls in, parks their car, goes in, and then when they're they have to back out and meanwhile, these cars are kinda know, you're a high volume usage versus kind of the rest of the areas, you know, people coming and going but not all at, you know, this constant flow. So did did you take a look at that? What's what's your what's your thoughts on that?

Yeah. For first of all we have shared parking through the entire shopping center so they can park anywhere they don't have to park here. There's plenty of parking in this area. We actually have parking here and along here so they can park any of these areas and still get into Chipotle. That's fine. All the drive aisles meet City of Westlake standards so they should be able to do any kind of backing maneuvering that they need to do for that. As far as traffic, yeah we'll have some traffic in here getting into the site but most of our traffic is going to be contained on-site.

And I think you know I don't have I think that is probably going to be the case. It's more of this you still have existing businesses that are there and, you know, they are parking up into where you're part of where your site is. And on top of it, like I said at the beginning, it's that you're still high volume. And so, like, when we've done some of these other ones we they came off of main drives and you know they weren't in they they didn't come in contact with what what's a really a parking aisle versus a main drive aisle. So that is a concern I still have with just this on this site.

If I may

we add one more thing in terms of

Absolutely. Sure.

Thank you. So when we I'm going to let traffic speak to this, our traffic engineer speak to this as well. But when we choose locations, we choose it based off of existing foot traffic and existing sales. We go to areas where we can feed off of the existing traffic that's already going to somewhere. We are not a destination. We are we are a convenience. When when we discuss our our our site plan, I just ask that we we don't use the the one off, you know, extreme measure. We're in we're this is a 23 car stack. You know, with with the math, we've given all the math to you about the you know, we're at 10. It's four and a half minutes.

We we we we flip this site plan in the event that it's there's an outlier scenario, but this is not going to be an issue that completely overflows out of our site, especially on a on a consistent basis. And we again, we took your, your recommendations last time, and we put it into the site plan. Also, I'll let Gina speak to this, hire a traffic engineer just to confirm that what we thought was was the case. But I'll I'll let her speak

to that.

Gina, I'll introduce Gina.

Can I get out of mic, sir? Can you get out closer? Yeah. Thanks.

I'll introduce Gina. She's our traffic engineer. And I think, Gina, the question is, so we're all on the same page, is the existing parking spots won't be there once the building is there. And how does that impact traffic? Not so much for our operation, but I think the question is for the whole operation of the center. And if you could comment on that as well as your views on traffic in general.

So the

Can we get your last name Gina, sorry.

Oh, sorry, yeah. Gina Bolsimo, traffic engineer with Carpenter Marty Transportation in Columbus. So the nice thing I know you were talking about your concerns with the Chipotle and the Chipotle traffic. The nice thing about this is that the peak of the Seven Brew is in the morning, you know, with the coffee, which compares nicely to Chipotle, which is lunchtime evening. Not to say that people aren't getting coffee at those times as well, but the peak of each of those are very different times.

And that also goes with the whole plaza itself. We looked at Detroit Avenue and the the plaza itself, and the PM peak is where you have the most traffic. So that is nice considering that we have seven Brew where the peak is in the AM. So we're adding more traffic when you have less traffic or more capacity available at the intersection. And then we also looked at, you know, that East West Road there where the 7 Brew comes out of.

We are not expecting that any of the queues stopped there to expand back and block that 7 Brew entrance. We're also not expecting any of the southbound traffic at Detroit Road to back up to that East West aisle either. So either way, no queues expected to block those drives there. And with that, we're only adding one vehicle. It's actually less than a vehicle, but we'll round up to one in average during that PM peak, which is the driving force there at that intersection.

Average delays are only supposed to increase by less than point two seconds. So really minimal impacts there. And that's extremely conservative analysis as well, assuming that all the traffic coming to that 7 Brew is completely new. Where we know that's not true. You know, a lot of people are gonna be hitting up that 7 Brew because they're already, you know, doing their shopping elsewhere and saw the 7 Brew and said, I'll I'll stop and get that on the way out or the way in. So there's gonna be a lot of internal capture there because of that.

Right. Okay. Well, I just what we don't want to do is say, okay, know, we certainly welcome your business here in Westlake, but impact these other existing businesses that are there. And, you know, just, you know, people are, they got their coffee, they're trying to get out, and meanwhile somebody's trying to back out of a space and, you know, it's, those are trying to reduce conflicts in our life, and especially in Westlake. So that is still I guess I'm I'm not completely sold.

I appreciate what you just told me. But I and we'll I'll hear what the rest of the commission has to say. So could we talk about the building for a minute then since we've you've made some changes?

Yes. My name is John Elsie. I'm an architect with GBC Design 565 White Pond, Akron, Ohio.

So so because you flipped the building, so the back of the building is gonna face Detroit. No.

We did we we kept the building orientation still towards it's not the back of the building. So what it now is is that we we flipped the building and kept the face of the building still to the south. So the front of our building still faces

Towards alright. So the high part is

Still towards the front.

Facing the okay. So let's so so what's the little blue square at the top supposed to be?

Up here? Yeah. It's actually the access door from from up inside this area here. Okay. And then that's actually and we show that as blue, but there's no issue with painting that to match.

Alright and that's gonna face on the north side.

That would be into the lot.

Into the parking lot and then on the south side.

So even even this door on the cooler or this door here that just automatically showed up as the blue on those But those could be painted out.

Right. So that would be what I'm gonna say is just from the basic question of what should be blue, think it should probably just be the canopy and not even the canopy columns. I would just have a simple

And we have no problem with just doing the canopy. The columns can be painted again to match like we what we've done here with the darker fascia up here.

We can do with the slide it down.

Yeah. Can you pull

it down a little bit? I thought they could see it. Yeah.

Thank you.

So like this darker up here, we I agree that this is actually more in line with what you did with Dunkin' Donuts with allowing them

to have a simple Right. Yeah.

But we could we could take that color and match it here on the columns, and those would go away. And then even even these doors would be, you know, to match.

Alright. Everything should be painted out to match them. Because I, you know, you don't I wouldn't call out something that's not an essential element of the building.

So I I will say that the bollards, we would suggest that that stay blue only because they're they're it's a caution type of a thing.

The bank painted them blue. Right.

And we felt that it would be appropriate instead of yellow or red or something like that.

I don't like the blue ones though.

I wish

they were.

No, I'll be glad to paint them yellow.

Any color. Right. Yeah. So I guess and then what about lighting? How where do we land on lighting with that? So is the canopy just lit underneath?

Yeah. It's just a down light. And then there was a concern at one time. There's just lighting under the canopy. And I think that shows up on the photometric that had been submitted. There's also at the back door, there's a down light that's just a down light to for security reasons at the back door.

Lighting complies. What's that? The proposed lighting complies.

Yeah. Okay. And then the signage just be on that side facing towards Detroit?

Well, they usually do at least here and on the sides, but that will be a separate submittal. Okay. And that dependent on

We haven't done so we haven't even looked at signage with the from a okay.

Yeah. We have I mean, we have it to the extent but that that yeah. That'll be a separate permit.

We actually showed it and was asked to remove it for this purpose.

Oh, okay. So just so to deal with the building. Well, I guess those are my comments. But I I I'll just be frank with you. I'm still not a 100% sold on this intersection of the existing parking. I still think that seems like there's a lot going on on the property. Let's hear what the rest of the commission has. I'm just one vote anyway.

But I would say that based on your comment of people maneuvering is going to happen whether Seven Brews there or not. So you're concerned about whether or not you can back out and watching for people or watching for other cars is going to happen whether Seven Brew is there or not.

Yeah. That's I I I appreciate that. And by the way, I I do thank you for coming up with another alternative scheme here. Think it's definitely an improvement over what you originally had proposed.

So Thank you.

Mister Van Dyke, would you be more comfortable for you to specifically talk about the entrance and where the closest parking spaces are? Because that's the only place really where I think there would be concern.

Well, it it's it's I mean, it's that it's that aisle that, you know, if you because I've gone over there and at different times of the day to just you know either when I was over there for shopping or for lunch and and you know looking at observing you know how those spaces are being used and you know the front door of Chipotle is at the end of that particular aisle. So you know the parking your expert here will tell you everybody wants to park as close to the front door as possible.

But there is a lot of distance if you look at that. For our traffic on the access ways, I think what is it? Probably about 30 feet?

And

to to Gina's point, I mean, we all can this is based on scientific and data and that's what we're choosing to move forward on. If we did this study and it showed the complete opposite, then we would have had to withdraw withdraw our proposal, but it didn't it it has not.

And and also, we haven't had any negative feedback from any of the adjoining businesses that are there. Our landlord has spoken with them, explained what we're doing. And to my knowledge, there hasn't been any opposition. And if they were concerned, I think they'd be here tonight.

Okay. So so they that has been run past the these Through through the landlord. Yes. The landlord has discussed it with Chipolte, and they are not in opposition as you far as you know.

Would he reported back that

there was As far as

we know, no. The the the site is, you know, as we said when we first came in, is is approved by by the landlord and all the approvals that are needed within the center. We we work with the landlord on on this new revision as when we initially came in. We didn't think that we're gonna be able to make the the current site plan, approved by the center and by by the landlord, but this has been approved by the landlord.

Okay. Appreciate it. Thank you.

Thank you.

Missus Smith? Okay. I I'll get to the site, but I wanna start with my comments on the building. Could we take a look at the elevations? I noticed today that the window mullions are white instead of like a bronze like the rest of the center, and I think I'd like to see those in a bronze. Is there a reason

The frames of the windows? Yeah.

Yeah. That's that's not an

issue. Yeah.

Okay. And then I was looking at the the site your site details. And the the dumpster and I I must admit this is the first time I noticed that the dumpster is kind of like out in the middle of everything. So it's kind of a feature. And then I looked at the detail on it, and it it says that it's sided with nichiha. And Nichiha is a cementitious panel, kind of not really you know, it says that it's a composite panel, preassembled or something.

This is

all Nichiha on this building. The whole building

is Is that a phase two CMU? I guess my concern is that when the dumpsters come, the dump trucks come, they're gonna beat up your cement panel. Oh. In in a way that excuse me. A way that masonry is not gonna get beat up.

So if you look at the full dumpster detail, and I don't know that you this was in the packet that we submitted that this is a CMU wall, it's covered with a neat

spot And on

then there's a baller plan to protect the

fence. Okay, you've you've thought you considered that. Correct. Okay. Okay. And then same same thought as councilman Van Dyke on the the the thin blue line for the the accent color.

Would you call that the canopy fascia?

Canopy fascia?

Okay. Canopy the horizontal canopy. The horizontal canopy. Was just the facial. Canopy horizontal

face was what I was gonna say.

Horizontal face. Okay.

And then for my sight concerns, I guess I still have a concern that this takes up such a large piece of the site. And now and if you look at where the and and this is the comment that I made last month. KeyBank is kind of tucked back in that one corner. Chase Bank is tucked up there. And the McDonald's is pocketed nicely back in this corner, sort of as if you placed your business in that northwest corner, which I realize would be difficult.

But anyway, it takes up really, for practical purposes, out into the backing up and the circulation into the driveway, I think really blocks out that one aisle of parking. And then also, the access to KeyBank looks as if you took a full width there, it it kinda cuts into your second drive lane. Is that what was your name?

We're not touching the front aisle at all. Okay. We are leaving all of this alone here for access to

All right. So that consider that got

two way traffic on there. Bring the site plan up.

And to the to the parking comment too.

The I guess we can't point at the same time. That island where the little tree is, just above there, go further to the right.

This one?

Yeah. Is that the full aisle?

No. That is this tree right here, which is kinda floating.

Alright.

Yeah. The the main access to KeyBank is down here, right parallel with us.

Everything as existing for KeyBank? There weren't okay.

Yeah. Was yeah. They weren't you know, got traffic. I've got the little plan, and then this this didn't show everything. So I was I was interpreting. So Okay. Okay.

I I I wanna confirm, though. It's two way traffic Yep. Plus our stacking lanes.

Okay. Yes. And and All

the way around. So the the stacking lanes are beyond that two way traffic? Yes.

And then to go to your dumpster enclosure location, this is about the only location that we can have where we can actually have a truck access it and pick it up. That's why we put it here.

I see that. Would there be a possibility to well, I I guess it'd be tough to landscape that out.

We we do have some landscaping

around around that. It it doesn't look like just a trash enclosure. Okay.

Yeah. We have quite a bit of landscaping landscaping. Yep. And then this is all grass, but we have some landscaping in this area. We can certainly add some in here if you decide. Okay. We have a sidewalk here to get our trash over to the trash enclosure so we could add some on the opposite side of that if if needs be. That's not a problem.

Alright. Okay. Well, that was my comment for that. But I still I have I do have a concern that it does squash out so much of the parking lot. I if just in For the use of the other businesses and that

The and mister Vidal, please correct me if if if I'm wrong. But we we did a parking analysis on this, and we're still well above the the average requirement for parks at the center even with us taking up what what we have.

Okay. Well those are those are my comments. Thank you very much.

Mr. Thank

you. So real quick, Alan. I'll ask you this. So that the, your south lease line, is that even with the south edge of the parking that's off that aisle currently? Okay. So you're so that just to be clear, that aisle, what's not changing, what's being eliminated is the parking that's off that aisle. Okay. I just want it it wasn't real clear from these pictures and it sounded like there might have been some confusion there. So just wanted to clarify that. So, yeah, I was probably the least opposed to the previous site plan of anybody on the board.

But I will agree that this is better. I did have concerns last month when we were talking about flipping the site that that could create too many vehicle pedestrian conflicts with the foot traffic, particularly Chipotle being the closest user there, but maybe also Jimmy John's next to it. But really it's looking at it now and seeing kind of how this is going to operate. I think what this is going to do is it's going to make people probably change their parking habits a little bit when they go to Chipotle. I'm at that Chipotle an embarrassingly frequently amount frequent amount.

In fact I was just there an hour and a half ago. We just missed So yeah. But you know I was there just today. Now again I know it's a Monday, Mondays are a little slower. But there was maybe half a dozen cars parked in the area where your lease pattern is. And I know that, you know, again again, this is the lowest traffic day. I'm there a lot on Saturdays and then we've talked a lot about how, you know, getting in and out of this plaza on Saturdays is chaos. Right? But I think, you know, again having this access farther from Detroit Road, think pretty much eliminates all the concern. You know, what little bit of concern I did have with this development potentially creating more traffic problems on the main aisle, this completely eliminates that.

And as and as I was looking at it, you know, looking at what the pedestrian traffic patterns would be coming and going from the Chipotle, I really don't think this is gonna be a problem. And and again, I agree that, you know, this is this plaza is way over parked and, you know, this gets it closer to where it probably should have been originally with the amount of parking in it. There's still gonna be plenty of parking even on the busiest day for Chipotle over there. So I I don't think this is gonna be an issue. So I have no I think what you've done with the site I think is a is an improvement and I'm totally fine with it.

Thank you. So as far as the architecture, know, I'm I will defer to the two architects on the board. But I would agree that, you know, I think we want to minimize the amount of any potential modification that we would have to give for for the blue, know, know, given the fact that it's basically a you know, we we kind of already decided the blue was basically signage. So I like the idea of just going with the horizontal face on the canopy and you know not painting those doors blue and not painting the columns blue. I don't really have an issue with the bollards.

I think the bollards are fine blue, know, I don't really see a problem there. I like the idea of making those window mullions bronze, know, to kind of tie it into the plaza better. That was a good good idea that I hadn't thought of. So very good. That's really all I have. I I think again I I appreciate the what you guys have done to this point and you know, I I think that I think that we're in good shape at

this point.

Thank you. Mister Del Ragneaux?

Yeah. Yes. First, thank you. Thanks for listening to what we said about that congestion at the top. I do agree with my colleagues that rotating it definitely moves that exit egress away from our biggest, what I consider to be our biggest pinch point. As far as similar to Mr. Jones, I'm at the Chipotle way too much. But I'll say that I think there is ample parking there even with the facility going in. Everything is from looking at the drawings, everything is curbed, correct? You are self contained curbed with inside of your own facility.

Okay. Yes,

sir. So that's that's a positive there. Disagree with you. It's a destined not a destination. My daughter did drive out to Sheffield to hit your place specifically. So

She's a one outlier.

She's a one outlier, yes. Please thank her. You can thank me. I bought it, I'm sure.

Thank you.

Yeah, so I think it's I appreciate you guys making the adjustments to that. And so Mr. Jones, I'm not the architect side of things. Do have I don't have any issues with the blue bollards, to be honest with you. I think it's I don't think we want the bright yellow in that facility. But And then the doors, if we can just, again, paint them back to blend in with the structure itself, I'm Okay. So that's kind of where I'm at.

Thank you very much. And I appreciate the change. I think that's going to work. And it is over parked. And the only people that park there are people that are leaving their car and meeting people and getting on 90. I know that for a fact. So I think that it's going to be a good use of the space. I'm fine with all the design changes. I'm fine

with the

blue bollards, too. And yeah, I think less blue is better. And it's just going to blend a little bit better into the shopping plaza. And I guess I still need to ask for audience participation. Anyone want to comment on this project? Okay. Seeing none, are we ready for a vote?

I do have a few more, if I may. So let's and this will be just a question for our engineer here and the traffic. What if you made the actual, you know, that aisle where that's that's coming into Chipotle, what if you pulled this shrunk the site up just a little bit more and made it a little wider drive? Would that be a good thing, a bad thing? That wouldn't line up with the one across completely. But does that do anything?

Well, I have a thought on it, I'd be curious to hear yours.

So if we're talking I know there were previous conversations about pedestrian traffic and everything. Having a tighter design really helps out with slowing vehicles. So from a pedestrian standpoint, it actually makes things safer to have it at a tighter design because then people won't have the opportunity to zoom through there to get to Chipotle or wherever they're going. So I think the tighter design is actually better here.

I would agree. I suspect you would say that but I wanted to hear from the applicant Yeah. Right. No. I wanted to hear from the applicant first to make sure we're kind of on the same page here. But there's obviously a fine line. You can't narrow them so much that it makes it difficult to maneuver particularly since you do have parking, perpendicular parking on the other side, of that aisle. So, you know, as long as you still have the, you know, required aisle width, per the code, which I'm assuming that's 24 there. So it's

24.

Yeah. So 24 is right where you wanna be in my opinion because, you know, that gives you enough area to maneuver but not so much where the aisle is wide enough that somebody might try to drive around somebody, you know, which, you know, creates an even more unsafe situation for pedestrians. You know, you wanna keep the traffic pattern. They simplified one way you know, one direction, one direction and not, you know, multiple lane. So I think what, what they have proposed, I think, is the best, situation for that.

Okay. And then what about you know I know do you have a stop sign at the you know as you're coming out or you know watch for pedestrians. What kind of

things do you have? Currently, don't have any signage showing. I'd have to look at our signage package, but we could certainly add a

We can add a stopper. I think that's a good idea.

Stop sign, add a watch for pedestrians sign.

I think that's a good idea.

Certainly not a problem.

You know, just something to remind

Do walk in that center. There were ladies that weren't weren't looking and crossed in front of my car yesterday. Mean, they just oblivious, just blew past me.

Sure they were on their phones.

Probably hoping waiting for the seventh

Could have been a guy too.

That's a good idea.

So another thing is and I I I'll confess, I hadn't spent a lot of time really looking at the landscaping in detail. Could you pull that up for a moment, please? As mister Biddell told you, we spent a lot of time on that original landscape plan, which I think has come in pretty nicely overall. So where you're at are you putting new trees in or are you leaving the existing ones that are there?

So right here we are going to remove and replace the existing trees here. We have to do enough grading that we were very concerned that those trees were going to survive. And then we talked about transplanting them, essentially taking them storing them and then putting them back. Again, were worried about them surviving. So we are gonna have our landscaper verify how big those trees are and put the same type of tree back, the same size back.

Okay.

But new trees.

So it won't be a small tree and then and then in between the trees, what kind of what what do you have what's gonna be there?

In here, it's all just grass. I think that's what is in these islands currently. So we were gonna

put Japanese blood Is

there blood grass? Mhmm. Okay. Yeah. Okay. We'll put I'll make sure that that's on there to put that back. But the intent is to have it look just like it does today.

Okay. And then around where you're what you're swinging around the bottom or the north south side, what what is there anything any kind of landscaping there? Or just

No. We just have sod here. We're keeping this tree here in this corner that's in that island right now. We're gonna have a new tree here, new tree with some shrubs here. All the rest of this will be sodded in that area. And then we have a whole bunch of new shrubbery here on the south side of the building in front of it. Some shrubbery in a tree here and then shrubbery in trees back there.

Yeah. So I I just wonder if we should be so I I may so we're not belaboring it tonight, but maybe you you might wanna work on this a little bit on adding a little bit of landscaping to some of it to soften a little bit. Because because right now, it's it's all pavement and just that, you know, so just so it blends in a little bit better with what what we have there. And I frankly didn't spend a lot of time looking at what what's existing and,

you know. Yeah. Trying to remember if there's a sprinkler system over there at West Bay Plaza or not. Think there has to be out there. Yeah. Is that

It's with all that pavement I would think there would have to be but I don't know that for sure.

So in other words so if you're willing to that would be my caveat is that you know we've and we won't make you come back for that. He can work with you on that.

No we'd be glad to work with him on that.

You know just so that it you know, maybe adding some plants or as he said, you know, just so it fits in with what has already been put out And it's been a number of years, I can't remember.

So Yeah,

we can look at adding some landscaping up in here just to soften this more of a sodding.

Not a problem. And then the last thing I guess is I would like if if it's you know, for the record, if the couple of those businesses on that side, if we can get a letter from them saying that they were, you know, from the landlord.

We can ask our landlord to do that. We can't correspond directly. Understood. Yeah. All we can do is is is is ask our landlord to provide some letters of no opposition if he would be willing to do that.

I would I think that would be great. And we've got a couple weeks before the planning to the actual council meeting. So if we could have it before that, that would be appreciated.

But I I have to make it clear. We have to go through the landlord. We'll use our best efforts to get it, but I can't guarantee it.

Okay. Are you ready for a vote?

We are.

All

right. Before we do or before you do staff does not vote, by the way as you know. So Bollard. So I think you know sounds like it's pretty clear. Most people don't mind if they're blue versus yellow or something. Then so the columns would be in matte black or all other trim I would say is in matte black color which was a color that they offered up.

But Jim so is it black? Because I think it should be is that what you have at the top? It black around the perimeter?

Yeah they have it called out as matte black.

Yeah. So I think the black and the blue are too close to each other. So can we make it a browns, bronze color so it matches more with what the rest of the

The center?

Right. Yeah. We have no problem with bronze.

Yeah, like the DP bronze. Right, a brownish color for the trim in those

Okay, so do you want all trim then is going to be in bronze.

And storefront.

And storefront system in bronze. So trim and storefront system in bronze finish or bronze color. And have

them submit the color to you ahead of time so we can you can send it to us and we can look at it.

Except for the canopy horizontal face that's in Pacific Blue.

Alright.

So that takes care of that. So then we've additional landscaping oh, you've got additional landscaping south of the dumpster enclosure. This will this is going to get wordsmith a little

bit when you'll see it in

the final motion. But I just want to make sure that everyone agrees. Landscaping south of the dumpster enclosure and then south of the or at the south lease line to soften that area as well. Doors to paint it to match the walls. And then sprinkler system.

And then signage for safety. However you want to word that.

Mr. Bedell, on the sprinkler

Yeah.

Do are you requiring it or do we do whatever is already at the center?

I'm asking them what they what

I think it should be whatever is at the center at this Okay. Right.

That's what I thought.

And then for the signage maybe they can run this past this because the engineer is going

to have to

look at this. Right. Yeah.

Well and that'll be so the signage that'll come along with the sign package anyways. Whatever it's gonna be stop pedestrian crossing that'll be so you're gonna see that sign package so that that one I'm not as concerned about that being as part of this motion.

The should we include it or no? I have it down as including it.

You can include it. You'll just see it at that later date. And then yeah the bronze window frames or store that's where it says storefront system and I

guess call it West Bay bronze or something.

Okay. But, yeah, but it needs to be submitted to you.

Mhmm. K.

K. Alright.

Can I get a motion?

Sure.

For the ordinance first. Yes.

Oh, sorry. Sorry. I'm gonna need my cheat sheet.

Falling asleep here already. Okay. So this is for the for the Ordinance.

Ordinance. Okay. Good. So based upon the findings of fact, I move to recommend approval of ordinance twenty twenty five dash 58. Second.

Roll call, please.

Jones? Yes. Belcone? Yes. Del Rechno?

Yes.

Smith? Yes. Van Dyke? Yes. Motion carries.

Thank you. And then for the development plan, please.

K. Based upon the findings of fact, I move to recommend approval of the seven redevelopment plan with the following. One, modification to allow parking at 4.4 spaces per 1,000 square feet. Two, conditioned light poles match the height of existing poles in the shopping center not exceeding 25 feet from grade to top of fixture, including base pole and fixture. Color temperature fixture lines with other parking lot lights, ADCRI and 3,000, and fixtures are dimmed to 50% after closing.

Three, this is where we'll swap this out with a part about the building face. Okay. So the, trim and storefront system, shall be in a bronze color to be approved by staff, by planning staff with the exception of the horizontal canopy face, which can be in the pacific blue color. Then four will be the doors shall be painted to match the walls. Five is the bronze mullions added to the windows to match the rest of the plaza.

Six, the additional landscaping to be added south of the dumpster enclosure and along the south lease line, to be approved by planning staff. And I believe I'm on seven. Is that right? Seven, signage at exit for safety to be reviewed and approved by, the city engineer, and eight are standard conditions.

Was Second.

There was a you wanted the sprinkler system if if that exists elsewhere in the the plaza. Can

we Sorry.

Can we add that as number nine?

Number nine. Yep.

And then let me see. Was there anything else? Did you mention bollard color?

Bollards are blue on the drawings, that are approved.

I think we don't have to change that. That's Got it.

Yeah. Okay. All

right. That's fine.

Second. Do we need another second? Second. Second. Roll call, please.

Bell Cone? Yes. Del Reigno? Yes. Smith? Yes. Van Dyke?

Yes.

Jones? Yes. Motion carries.

Great. Thank you very much.

Thank you

very much.

Next item on the agenda is Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints development plan for the pavilion.

Yes. For the sake of time, I'll just go through what has changed. So based on the feedback from the last meeting, the proposed pavilion was rotated 90 degrees. As you can see at top there, the red box, the white box was the way it was previously. And to further enhance screening, they do indicate a roll of 15 arborvitae planted around the structure. And so at a height of six to eight feet. And so their idea is that they wanted something that would get about 15 feet in height that would grow together. There was a comment from one of the residents. And I I do agree that the arbs they picked are a little more slender than what would be needed. There's of course there's Green Giant.

Now Green Giant's gonna get much taller than 15 feet. So I decided against that. Techni is a variety of arb that gets a six to eight. I've even seen it having up to a 10 foot spread. So that could actually form that green wall. So it's a better solution to doing that. The other change is a dumpster enclosure has been provided. It does meet the code requirements. It would be a brick veneer over a masonry like a cinder block construction. Concrete caps, fully opaque locking gate.

So exactly what we need to see for that. Concrete pad does relocate one space south of its current position to accommodate a handicap accessible space to the north. And this may come in handy. So this is just kind of a bird's eye view. Give you an idea of where this is in relative to the surroundings.

I also have some addresses of the homes that are directly around it as well as some of the distances. The 197 that you see, is actually distance of the the two homes that are directly to the North. So they together make up 197. We see that 199. That's actually the side yard 2535 Columbia Road. Very very big piece of property. So you see that 199. That's what that equals. The 120 is just measuring the the width of that green space. Okay.

So I do have both so you can kinda see how things have changed. This is just showing mainly, you know, the main change is just rotating the structure. But it did result in all these other drawings changing as well. There's a dumpster enclosure which is new. This is the landscaping design new as well. It does require modifications still. 1,800 square feet. And let's see. Okay for everything else. Noise control.

There were a lot of comments about noise. Noise is not something that's zoning code regulation. It's actually in chapter five thirty one. It's something that is regulated by or enforced by our police department. And then this is from last month but there are a couple of more recent examples.

Saint Bernadette's. They have a pavilion that was approved back in 2022 that's three twenty four square feet about 18 feet tall. Prince Of Peace in 2023 they had one approximately 3,500 square feet and it does have a feature that makes it 43 feet tall. So if you are able to make a recommendation and this for those of you in the audience staff doesn't have a say in this we just help our Planning Commission as they at some point will make a recommendation one way or another so these are some things that we were thinking of that you would need to incorporate in your motion. Modification which is a way of saying an exception to exceed the 600 square feet in size.

Condition regarding lighting that it's turned off when not at use unless there's any security lighting. And condition regarding those arborvitae to change that as well and then the standard condition that's that last condition and that's just referencing comments from the staff report thank you

thank you would the applicant like to come forward please Hello.

Hello. Thank you for having me. Max Payton with KBJW Engineers, Dayton, Ohio. So I'd like to share with you guys a letter that the congregation addressed to based on some of the negative feedback received from the the neighboring properties. I'm just gonna read a few passages to help explain what what the pavilion's intent purpose is.

So the church wishes to emphasize that the pavilion will play an important role in the religious life of the applicant's congregation. In addition to participating in regular Sunday worship, services held in chapel, members of the applicant's congregation exercise their religious beliefs by engaging in acts of community service and caring for those in need by sponsoring organized activities, programs for youth and children, and by engaging with other members of the congregation and members of the community, generally in wholesome social and recreational activities. The pavilion will serve as a site to perform service projects or stage the congregation's humanitarian activities. The pavilion will be a site for the congregation's youth and children's groups to gather for the recreational activities, and the pavilion will host the social gatherings for the entire congregation and for members of the community as a whole. Finally, the applicant notes that the pavilion will not be used for functions inconsistent with or diverge from the applicant's core religious beliefs.

The pavilion will not be used to host commercial activities and will not be used as a venue for third parties to hold concerts or other events which could be disruptive to neighboring residents. Indeed, applicant believes that by facilitating uses which are consistent with its core religious beliefs, the pavilion will actually be an asset to the community as a whole. So and I know there were some other comments about maintenance on the the project and on the current grounds, and unfortunately, I cannot speak to that. I know that the applicant has a facilities team that they feel strongly about. Unfortunately, that's all I can really say about any sort of maintenance issues.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thanks.

So Planning Commission members, do you want to do audience first or do you guys want

to go first?

Well, think we could have the audience speak to some of these. But my suggestion would be we received a number of letters and emails so which we appreciate and we've looked at. So maybe if we could limit it a little bit because it's already 08:00 and we have a very long agenda today. So and when I say limit, it's not we want to hear from people. But if you've written us, we've read it.

And

there's anything else you'd like to add, you know, that's fine. But as you can see, we've got a full crowd here and a full agenda. So that would be my suggestion.

So we will do you can come up once, say what you need to say, a two minute limit. And I do have I mean, have every single correspondence. We've heard from 25 residents. Some And of that did include videos. I think there were three or four videos as well. So you have to understand we've read it, and we understand what you're saying. And we appreciate your comments, but you don't have to come up and repeat it again. So with that being said, who would like to come up? Make sure you state your name and address, and we will be timing you. So don't think we're rude, but we need to get through the agenda.

Come on up. You're first. Oh, this is we have a lineup. That's fine. Welcome.

My name is Brian Williams. I live at 24525 Annie Lane directly to the north of the proposed property that we're talking about. I'll skip over some of my notes as you mentioned. The construction of this large pavilion, three times the allowed code in the residential laws is a significant escalation in the potential frequency of use and the associated noise levels to our neighborhood. I'm here to oppose the approval of this project.

It's worth noting that at the last meeting, several church members stated that they do not intend to to increase the use of their facilities. The letter that was just read kinda directly contradicts that. Stating that they're not gonna increase use is illogical. Just building this structure invites increased use. It's going to cost them a guess of north of $200,000 based on the Prince of Peace project where they published a half $1,000,000 budget for a twenty hundred or 2,400 square foot pavilion.

This being 1,800 approaches that. They've stated their lack of funds to cover basic maintenance. So with their lack of funds and the cost of this project, what it does suggest is an alternative plan to actually increase usage, and in my opinion, would take them out of residential zoning laws that seem to be applied here. An example of our concerns is what's going on at the Prince Of Peace Pavilions. You've seen the videos that we've showed. They are hosting weddings. They are hosting memorial service. They're hosting outdoor church services. It is an escalation of how this property has been used for the twenty years that I have lived there, and that is the basis of our objection. Not that we object to what they've done for the last twenty years.

They've been fine. They've been loud occasionally, but so am I. So are my other neighbors. We're not worried about that. We're worried about an escalation based on this property. I find it difficult to imagine that the city would allow me to build an 1,800 square foot pavilion in my backyard solely for the purpose of hosting large events. Right? I'm certain my neighbors would be upset about it and would object to it. In the same vein, if I were just hosting medium to large gatherings

wrap it up. Thanks.

Sure. I

have Anything else to

add?

Can I yeah? I have one more paragraph.

Yep. That's fine.

The city council has a legal obligation to act in the best interests of the community and to exercise reasonable care in its decision making process. If the decisions result in harm or damage, are arbitrary by not following approved codes, or create a substantial and unreasonable interference with the use and enjoyment of property, then the council will have failed to meet this obligation.

Thank you.

Thank you. Next.

Hi. I'm Kim Williams. I live at 24525 Annie Lane. I've lived on Annie Lane for twenty years, and I've enjoyed my peaceful home and backyard. And this variance will ruin our quality of life. My privacy, my quiet patio, my sleep, my ability to enjoy my backyard in in solitude, and all of the hard work, this has the potential to be detrimental to our property value. A A 600 square foot pavilion is very different from an 1,800 square foot foot pavilion. It's a major facility expanding the operations of the church. The staff report claims use intensity is not increasing by this project. With respect, that is not accurate.

A 600 square foot pavilion could host a small group. An 1,800 square foot pavilion, which I've shown here, can host

Put that up here.

Large events and create and create for greater impacts on noise, traffic, and neighborhood character. This is an increase in intensity, and it is at exactly what the 600 square foot cap was meant to prevent. As my letter stated, I believe 20 to 30 people are objecting to this pavilion variance, homes on Shiloh Park, Annie Lane, and Cornerstone. We are objecting to the findings that the 1,200 square foot pavilion should not be considered a garage. It's a pavilion.

A garage is used privately, and a pavilion is for weddings and large gatherings. The code should be rewritten to safeguard our community. A clear example is the Prince of Peace approved in 2024 illustrates the lack of consistency in approvals. Here is a photo of the Prince of Peace at Saint Bernadette's. It's a 400 square foot pavilion.

Oh, you have to put

it on the seal over there. Oh. Yeah. It's a

400 square foot they're not showing up. A 400 square foot pavilion versus a 2,500 square foot pavilion with music, projections. And here's a picture of the church at Saint Bernadette's, and it is very far from other homes. Can you please wrap it up? Thank you. Yes. And I just wanted to play this if you haven't heard it.

We've heard all the videos. And that's not that's it. The Lutheran Church. Correct? Prince of Peace?

This is at Prince of Peace.

Yeah. We sent that. We've we've

heard it.

Yeah. We've heard it all.

Just wanted to make sure that this was seen. Thank you. So I'm objecting to

Thank you. Thank you. Next.

Good afternoon. My name is Jamil Day. Thank you for having me again. I live in 24541 Annie Lane. We heard the argument last last month about about the use and and all that stuff, and we showed some concerns about the landscaping and the lack of maintenance and all that stuff.

We also have a fire pit right at the corner of one of the property, which is very, very big fire hazard, and we all have concern. When I moved to this when I built this house sixteen years ago, I didn't have any any issue to have a church in my backyard, but I did not bank to have a theater in the backyard. Now the the applicant claimed that they need to use it once a year, like we know, and they used it two weeks ago. We had we had loud music, and many of our neighbors did did a photograph or or have a video, and the sound was very, very loud. So if you want to use it once a year for 200, two fifty people, why do you need to build half million dollar or $300,000 structure.

You can rent a tent for a thousand dollar once a year if you need it, if the weather is rainy or it's it's very, very hot. But once you have the structure and you spend the money and you have already this this thing, economically, you have to use it for something else to make up the money. If you have the money, start by showing a good faith by cleaning up. The last month, nobody did anything. I was hoping to see somebody cleaning the the the yard.

Make sure that, okay, we're gonna show you that we are the good neighbors. We start by cleaning, then help us to have to have a theater. Definitely, we don't wanna have that. And then when you tell me that you're gonna have 15 trees out of a 120 linear feet, that's not gonna happen. I mean, I have in my backyard trees that are 15 years old, and they grow one foot a year, barely, and we keep watering them. They need they need water system. They need all kind of stuff. I think if they have to to do something like that, they need to move it to the South End near near Westwood where they have couple neighbors

only wrap it up

the please. Third.

Thank you.

Thank you. Southland. I got that.

And a sprinkler system.

Yep. Sprinkler. I got that. Next please.

Good evening. Thanks for having me again. Concur with

Your name please. Name address.

My name is Ashwin Shah. I'm sorry. Ashwin Shah. I see you. I live on 24909 Annie Lane.

Yep. And I concur with what Kim, Brian, Jamil, and many other neighbors have conveyed in their letters that I'm aware of. One thing that I want to add is that in the last meeting also I mentioned that we have had experienced some intrusions from the kids, you know, when they have parties and stuff like that. And if 1,800 square feet of pavilion is being constructed, which will gather a lot more people than what they have been having in the event that they have in the past, the probability of intrusion will increase. And on top of that, currently I have mound.

Even with the mound, there were intrusions. I'm planning to actually flatten out the mound and redo the landscaping of my backyard. And my backyard, Southwest Corner, touches the property of the church. So if there are more people, there is a very high chance of more intrusions in my yard and others' yard. And that will invade our privacy as well.

So this is what I have to say. And there is something that we found about the neighborhoods, you know. And that I don't know if we sent it to the city or not, but we haven't, but we probably will send it to the city that highlights a lot of that we talked, you know. So with that, I would strongly, you know, feel that the city should not approve this project for 1,800 square feet. They should, you know, the zoning regulations.

And if there is any engineering explanation that planning commission has, I would like to learn that. I'm a registered professional engineer in the State of Ohio, and I should be able to understand that. With that, I end here. Thank you.

Thank very much. Next. Hi.

I'm Sue Call. I live on 24506 Cornerstone Drive. I'm going to make this really short. I'm in total agreement with these people and everything they said, so I'll make it real simple.

Great. Thank you. Next. I'm Joy Gadovan, and 24501 Cornerstone is my address, and I agree with with everything that was sent here. Great. And I see you. I mean, we have all your names too. We're circling who came back. Thank you. Next.

Hi. Hello. My name is Jay Janning. I live at 4915 Mills Creek Lane. I may be the only one here speaking in behalf of the pavilion, so I hope maybe you might afford me more than two minutes.

I don't know.

I've been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints for over twenty years and been using this building. I would love to think that by building a pavilion that we could increase our membership. If it was that easy, we would have tried to build this twenty years ago. I was the DJ at the party that the noise complaint was made. The noise complaint was actually the first one in five years, because the previous four years we had the Westlake Police Department and the Fire Department out there enjoying the festivities.

We welcome the entire community to come grab a hot dog or hamburger. Our activity this year, the noise complaint, was made around 02:00 or so. The police showed up. I very gratefully turned the music way down once requested. Nobody from the community came by to ask us if we could turn the music down. I would have been grateful to do so as well. The complaint was made. I mean, we were we were playing loud music between noon and 03:00 in the afternoon on a Saturday. Some of the issues that I heard, intruders. I know all of the youth.

I've known all of the youth going through that congregation for twenty years. They don't cross out of our property into the neighborhood. If it's neighborhood kids coming over, we can't control that. We did have nonmembers, youth, teenagers, using using the back area. We alerted the Westlake Police Department.

They

now patrol that on what they call their regular drive bys. The fire pit is about two feet tall, two or three layers of bricks. It's about maybe three feet wide at at the most. It it's not a roaring bonfire pit. You're welcome to come by and see it yourself. There was a claim that no landscaping work was done in the last month. That's completely false. I, myself, spent two Fridays, eight, nine hours both days out there cleaning up quite a bit of the landscaping. I hit a bee's nest. I have about 14 bee stings from it too.

A lot of these claims, I understand people are concerned. The problem here is that we're not allowed church. We're we're not holding outdoor ministries like the Prince of Peace. We don't hold outdoor weddings. We we would never use this pavilion for a wedding.

Our weddings are actually held in sacred temples, one of which exists in Columbus, and we're building another one in Independence. That's where our wedding ceremonies are held. We don't have church bells, so most of the time, we're not even that loud with the exception of the one time a year. I don't think I have anything else to say other than I I hope that this program gets passed. We do rent tents every year.

We will continue to rent tents if the pavilion doesn't get built. The reason we were building this pavilion was a member of our congregation, Joyce Schroth, had a son who passed fifteen years ago, Brad, and she donated the money for this pavilion. It's not a multimillion dollar complex. It's not fancy. It's got some poles and a roof. We're not building audio systems or TVs. I believe that's all I have to say. Thank you very much

for your time. Clearing that up.

Hello. My name is Gordon Jeffrey. I live at 224 State Route 604 in Polk, Ohio. I am the facility manager for the church. I manage 50 church sites in Northern Ohio. I've been a facility manager for the church for twenty six years. In my experience, the size of the pavilion will not change the use. It will just make the the current use that our congregation has for the site more convenient. This is the standard size pavilion that we built at all of our larger church sites. We have a couple dozen of these pavilions throughout Northern Ohio.

As far as the landscaping, so I just inherited this site into my group recently, but I do have work orders in the system. I have copies with me if you'd like to see them for the fence repair for basic cleanup along the fence. Those will be immediate repairs. More extensive landscaping of dead wood in the trees and and such will take us a little time to gather the budget. But I have work orders in the system to gather quotes for that so we can at least proceed with that first thing in the spring.

And the landscaping budget, I just like to mention that the maintenance budget in our church is separate from the building budget. The building budget is submitted years in advance and approved whereas maintenance is just is an ongoing thing. So so spending the money to build this pavilion has no effect on the the ability to perform maintenance. That's all I have. Thank you.

Great. Thank you very much. I know we would want to limit it to one at a time. So I'm sorry. We've got your letters. We've got the videos. We've heard I think we've heard everything. So I'm gonna go ahead and start working on the fellow commissioners to see what we want to do.

Supposed to start at the other end.

Staring at you.

Was gonna let it go.

Go ahead, mister Delregnant. I think it's a fun one.

Alright. So I I we've heard everybody. Believe us. We've we've heard it. So I'm just going to say that I I did visit the site.

I did walk it. I do feel that there is existing mounding that is in some areas, I'll say this, I believe, to the west. And then there is wooded areas to the east of it where the looks like it would be 24525 and 24517 are located. I do think that the rotation of it definitely brought us further away from the residents that are behind them. The arborvitaes are the vegetation.

I I believe I don't I guess I'm not really following. So it looked like we were trying to put herbs around the three sides of the of the pavilion itself. Do you

have that drawing? I'll put it back on the screen.

Yeah. So looking at that, I I'm I don't see the functionality of them being around those sides of it. Right? So I was looking more towards the property line, lining them across the back to give a visible barrier from that. Their size is going to change as the years go on, but I'm just concerned that them being close to the structure are going to cause one, if they get too big they're going to interfere with the structure.

Two, they're going to how well are they going to be handled with sun and all of that. So I was envisioning them being more along the property line to give us the visual barrier and something a little more hearty that's going to give potentially block the sound. So again, I've listened to all the videos. I've seen all of that. In my opinion, there's going to be, you know, the pavilion is erected or not, there's still the use of the green space back there is going to happen either way.

So I see where you went with it. I see where you changed it. I appreciate you making the changes to the dumpster. That's definitely something that needs to happen. So I'm kind of I'm kind of looking at it from it's going to happen anyway, whether it's a tent or if it's a pavilion at this point is where I'm at.

Thank you. Mister Jones?

Yeah. I'm not sure I totally agree with you about the arborvitaes. I I think what I I do understand your point, that if they're too close to the pavilion, at some point, they're gonna crowd the pavilion out and then they're gonna become at that point, you know, years down the road, well, they just decide, you know what? These things aren't working here and they're gonna end up having to tear them out or something, which we obviously don't want. So particularly since, and maybe I'll ask Mr. Vidal to clarify. Because I know you've asked or recommended that they switch the variety of Arborvitae. And I know you know a lot more about trees than any of us on the board do. So I'll maybe ask you to explain that a little bit. How big do these ones get that you're suggesting? Suggesting?

Well, I've seen six to eight or even eight to 10 feet. That's the spread about 15 feet in height. So similar height to what they were originally proposing.

Okay. So the height's the same but the spread is more. So and I guess that's where so if we're gonna try to them to plant something that will sort of spread into each other and become a solid wall, we also can have to keep in mind they're also gonna spread north south. So they're probably gonna need to get shifted a little bit farther away from the pavilion as well. So I think, you know, maybe not much, know, maybe we're talking a couple of feet or something.

But, know, just want to make sure that we don't get into a situation where these things intrude onto the pavilion because then at that point they're gonna just start thinning out the trees, you know. That's not what we want. We want that to be a permanent solid barrier. So at least that's how I would see it and I think what the residents, have requested. So I think that that's you know, I guess maybe when if I was gonna let this go forward, maybe ask ask the orientation of those trees to be reviewed by staff, you know, just to make sure that they're not going to intrude on the pavilion.

Other than that, I mean, I think, you know, rotating this 90 degrees and pushing it closer to the park, pushing the long side close to the parking lot, I think, you know, does make a pretty significant difference here. It gets the, you know, doubles the amount of space between the property line and this thing, know, at the northern side. So I think that that's a good thing. I know that you've made, you've added, an enclosure on the dumpster, which was brought up last time as being a potential issue, so we appreciate that. And, you know, hearing from the, the maintenance people from the church, you know, I I know that there's been some some concerns with how that property's been maintained, and I'm not sure it's even in our purview necessarily.

But, you know, knowing that there's, you know, maintenance coming, you know, that I think that there's that that's to be considered as well. So that's all I have.

Thank you. Missus Smith?

I appreciate the fact that you've turned it 90 degrees and brought it closer to the church. And I think that your addition of the arborvitaes, if can we come up with the right plant variety and the right distance from the pavilion, should enclose it kind of like a conceptual wall. If you could review for me, again, the the lighting that you planned for this and the sound system.

Yeah. There will be no sound system as part of the pavilion. That doesn't mean that they won't have any sort of, like, amplifier for a microphone if they're do similar to what they use now. Understood. Lighting, it's downward facing light that will only be turned on when the pavilion's in use. I believe last time the church had mentioned it would only be on Wednesdays. Don't wanna say only. I I can't speak to it, but minimal and within the normal range.

And if it were all screened in with trees with downward facing light, then it would be contained to the the pavilion.

Yeah. Correct. And you actually, before the trees were instituted, the photometrics, all the light was contained on the site.

Okay. Those are my comments for now.

Thank you. Councilman Mandeke.

Okay. Well, first of all, appreciate everybody who wrote and spoke here tonight as neighbors to express your concerns. I'll just I'll I'll say a few things and then a few other things. So the first thing is so the way the code's written, and mister Bedell, you can you can chime in, is certain types of uses have a little bit of flexibility in the code in terms of location. So a church can be in a residential residential area.

Area. A school can be in a residential area. I believe we used to have like a nursing home could be in a residential area.

At one time, not

at all. Not now, but because in the old days they were a home. Hilliard Elementary School is on Hilliard Boulevard surrounded by homes and Parkside. The City Hall

can be in a residential area.

City Hall can be in a residential area, Right? And we've had a number of churches come in. If you drive on Hilliard, can see the Coptic Church is expanding, building a gymnasium on the back. And eventually, the plan is for them to build a pretty substantial church out on towards Hilliard with a dome and some other things. And, you know, so we worked with them on on the plan, but, you know, it we we weren't gonna say to him, you can't build a church here.

Right? Right.

Right. Because it's permitted. Yes. So these the this church is permitted to be here. Right. So that's that's the first thing. The second thing is that this outdoor pavilions, obviously, we've had several come in and been approved. Saint Bernadette's, I've been here for that when that came here. And then the Prince of Peace. Prince of Peace.

I do want you to check on where we left it with, the speakers there, because I thought that was one of the concerns. But we'll see. But in any case, so there's certainly some desire to have some outdoor uses and that type of thing. So one of the questions I have, though, is what we approved a pavilion here already a few years back. And what size was that for?

I don't have that information.

It's 1,200

square feet.

Was 1,200.

Right. That's on page two of your analysis.

Okay. Guess I should have read the whole thing completely. So, again. Alright. 1,200 square feet. So we approve that with the idea that it was and I will say, in fairness to the neighbors here, that it's a the back that's that back part of the property is a little smaller than certainly Saint Bernadette's. And it's certainly smaller than Prince Of Peace. And Prince Of Peace actually is sort of on the street versus this. So I guess what trying to figure out how to thread the needle needle here a little bit. So what tell me a little bit more. What was the purpose of it? It would be used for

Yeah. The purpose is for outdoor gatherings, sometimes Sunday school with the children social gatherings

if you don't mind because I'm I'm there every Sunday I might be able to answer that question a little bit better We we may have dozen small children go out for a a Sunday school class that lasts about forty five minutes on on a early Sunday, maybe 10:11 o'clock or so. They're small children. If the weather's nice, I mean, obviously, it's Cleveland, and so nine months out of the year, it's probably either raining or too dark. Other than that, we like, we hold a once a year picnic and invite the community. Beyond that, we do have activities with our youth on Tuesdays and Wednesday nights from seven to 08:30.

They may go out there if the weather is nice, but again, not at all during the winter.

So it's, you know, because, you know, very rarely have I, you know, most of the church things I've been to, they're not, you're not planning something at ten or 11:00 at night.

Oh, absolutely not. Right.

Yeah. And then, you know, you obviously heard noise is a concern. And, you know, you know, there's ways to address it. You know, voices are one thing, but, you know, amplification's another thing. So I don't know if we can, I don't wanna say limit it, but maybe, you know, from a neighborly standpoint, that certainly is an

issue that We we have a PA system? It's it's locked up in the building. There's three people who have access to it. I'm one of those three. It it children or any other activities outside won't have a PA system or microphone. As as the architect stated, there's no plans for a PA system or electronics beyond lighting.

Yeah. Now I did notice he had a sort of like a little maybe it's where the fire pit is back in the south I'm sorry, the northeast corner in the woods, there's some a little seating area back in there. Right?

There's a couple of benches. It was actually an Eagle Scout project. They built some benches. I believe there's a metal the small metal picnic table and the fire pit. And there's a rack of wood that's back there that is so seasoned, probably should just be thrown away instead of burnt, to be honest.

Right.

Yeah. Well, so I just and I appreciate being on Eagle Scout project. Should that be moved out here a little bit more instead of right up on the neighbor's property line? I don't know if that's something that's possible to do. Or Well, absolutely. We could move it if it

if it's a simple request. I I'd say the fire pit itself is probably 15 feet from the property line, at least. I mean, it's not like it's right in the back of the corner. But Yeah. I'm certainly open for discussion on that.

Well, just wonder if that, you know you know, again, rather than being on the property line, bringing bring people in a little bit more. And and the what with we approved this 1,200 square feet. Why why the 1,600? What what was the reason for increasing the size?

Yeah. So the Church of Latter day Saints changed their standard from a 1,200 square foot to an 1,800 square foot. After we had this approved, it was part of the funding. They I I don't know funding wise, but it was the church themselves don't wanna put something that's outdated per their standards that they're Mhmm. You know, they have architectural standards for their for all of the churches nationwide.

Right. Right. But and then so has anybody if you notice, laid out how much how many how many people would be able to be under this pavilion?

I I did not. I I don't know.

Sorry.

Well, I would guess if it were a classroom, and a classroom is about 900 square feet, you'd have 30 people in the classroom max. I mean, the note the standard now is lower. It's maybe 22. So max, you're gonna have 60 people in there for I mean, that's probably most volunteer organizations don't get a gathering that size. Right.

And I mean, are you gonna have picnic tables under there? Are you gonna have tell me so in other words you have this big pavilion. Yeah. It's 1,800 square feet. You know what you

know if you you

know we're trying to get a sense of you know use and how many people will

be there.

If I can help answer some of those. So so the size that's our our our church builds standard buildings and standard structures across The US. And so that's this is a standard design for our pavilions that we build at all the buildings and that's the standard size. It'll it's a it'll have a roof and then it'll have picnic tables on the cement slab. So that's the extent of the structure and the pic. And then I can't recall how many picnic tables fit under there. Think it's about 12 picnic tables.

Okay. So 12 and you can probably put let's say, eight to a picnic picnic table. That's about right.

Yes. Sounds right.

96.

Who said 96? And then One of the engineer friends.

Chemical engineer. And then on the use, it's just for existing activities, picnics, outings like that that already occur. But this just makes it more convenient to have those activities. Right.

So at most, it's a 100 people with picnic tables.

Mhmm.

Mhmm.

Yeah. Right. And that's probably pushing it. You know, that's with everybody crammed in. Right.

And that's based on the size of the congregation. If they don't have a 100 people that come to an outings then they're not gonna fill it. But it's just that's the size that we build.

Yeah. Alright. So let's talk a little bit about the whole buffering. Just like Mr. Del Reigno, I went out there and actually walked the site so I had a better up close to the fence.

And the fence is, it's getting a little older. So, you know, certainly one option would be to put a board on board fence or something that would actually, you know, be a visual barrier. You know, at least along the back and partway down the sides, that might be something that actually would, I think it might look nice. So that's something to consider. The other thing is, you know, there's there is a lot of, you know, pine trees back there mainly on the neighbor's properties, but, you know, there's some gaps in it.

I'm not a fan of putting those arborvitae around the pavilion. I think that's going to be a little weird actually because if you're in the pavilion, now you're gonna be surrounded by this wall of green

stuff Yeah.

It might have insects in it too.

I'm not in favor of that. I think you have to address any buffering and landscaping out at the perimeter of the of the site would be how I would look at it.

We would be certainly willing to move our plants to the property line to create that barrier if that's what would work better, we're open to that.

I'm making sure they should be Arborvitaes, I

would think Pine Creek is something that adjust to whatever is recommended. We're open to that.

Yeah, the original intent was to actually try to hide the structure itself. Maybe misinterpreted the previous comments from the neighbors that they just didn't like the sight of the structure itself. So trying to keep a dense wall hiding the structure. But, yeah, I think that

I I don't think it'll work for you. And and so the but and the other thing is, I mean, which if you're hearing from the neighbors is they don't wanna you know, they'd like not to have visually seeing it, but it really it's also this is there going to be ongoing noise issues versus an occasional noise issue. So I'm not sure how we, as a planning commission, necessarily address it. But, you know, I'm not sure there's a big difference between twelve hundred and eighteen hundred square feet either. And we have already approved the 1,200.

And along with that, I know there's a lot of there's been this, you know, it's a residence, we only allowed to have this size pavilion versus a, you know, what they're proposing. But it goes back to this, it's a church or a school or and so it's not directly a you know, because it was a residence, you'd have four parking spaces and all that type of stuff.

So

here's the question I guess I I have is how do we if we if we were to move forward with something, how do we actually do a a decent buffering on here? And how do is this something we try to decide tonight or have the applicant come back with another proposal? Or what would everybody like to see? And I'm asking my fellow commissioners that.

Well, I think, I mean, is there a compromise here is basically what we're asking. I mean, sound is the issue. Noise is the issue. So, I mean, from what you're telling me, it's limited. And I'm an active member of Westlake Church. And we love to be outside. But I'm telling you, when we do stuff outside, it does not double our congregation that day. It just doesn't. So I think that's I understand. And I saw the video from Prince of Peace.

But their idea and their intent with the pavilion is much different than what this pavilion is, in my opinion. So I guess, can we buffer it? Can you put a fence up? I mean, it sounds like property management is doing something about some of the issues that they're complaining about. But I think, yeah, I like the idea of a board on board fence. I like the idea of the arborvitae. I mean, that's going do sound, noise. People aren't going to be going back into the neighborhood with that barrier. So I mean, I like all those ideas. I guess I had a couple of questions. So who is paying for the pavilion? This donor or is it in the church budget?

So originally, there was a donation made, but the church doesn't generally operate that way. So this is a church budgeted

It will be budgeted. It is budgeted. Okay. And then what is your congregation size? Like, I guess, many how members do have, and then how many people come to church?

We we have two congregations that meet there.

We talked about this last time.

Oh, we've got you.

One of them has approximately a 110 regular attendees on Sunday. The other one, about same numbers, one twenty five.

Okay. And they just come at different times?

Yes. They're staggered just because of the size of the building and classroom size. Got it. Right now, one meets at ten, the other meets at 11:30, and each service is two hours. Okay.

I think those are the only questions I had.

He looks a little confused how that one worked. We have a I'm a lawyer.

Didn't go Oh, okay.

Not good at math.

That didn't add up.

He's not good at math.

When one congregation is having classes, then the other comes in and has worship service in the chapel.

You're probably Catholic too, right? So

with that so the event you had recently exterior, how many individuals are in attendance at something like that?

Five years ago, we had maybe four fifty. This past year, it was more like two thirty.

Okay. So about 230 individuals in the back and sounded like you were stuffing bags for

I I it was this year, it was Rainbow Babies and Children's. We made 400 bags to donate.

Some of that at that same time, though, it sound is all of that activity, the stuffing of the bags and the events going on, is that everyone's outside at that time, or are also using the building itself?

Actually, all the activity was done in the gym. We we made all yeah. Everything was because we had to plan it that way in case it rained.

Okay.

So all the all the bag creating and it was air conditioned, that was a really hot day. So actually, of the day, a lot of people were inside.

Very good. Sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt.

Oh, no. You're fine. Other questions?

Well, still don't know if we've gotten the if the buffering has been addressed and a satisfactory well.

So bringing something back with the buffer?

I I don't know.

The sound buffering or Landscape fence,

visual, everything. Well, what

about planting your choice of arborvitae on the backside of the fence in those areas that need to create a wall like place so that the neighbors can't see

it.

I feel like a fence a new fence is necessary too. Right? What's there right now? Chainlink? Yeah.

For maintenance, we'd we'd rather plant along the property line than next to the structure

for sure. Mhmm.

And I I did talk in length with Jason Carmen about some of the complaints in the property. And he said the fence is actually still considered to be in in good working order. There's just a few areas where tree branch fell and dented the top of the fence. But he said as far as structurally going, the fence is okay. But I think we're in agreement after reviewing the complaints that we're gonna definitely fix the fence.

But the fence doesn't provide any screening currently because Right. It's over Right. So any screen so if you if the current fence stays, then then any visual screening would have to happen with the landscape. Planting. So that's what makes it more important to make sure that we've we agree that it's

So with that being said also, when I walk the site, the fence line, where the fence is, where's your property beyond that fence?

The fence line is de facto property line. Okay.

So the there is wood pilings. There's a tree on the other side that has a limb that's hanging that appears to be on the north side of the fence. Is that true?

Yes. That that's our understanding of the property line, anyway. I mean, we didn't do a certified boundary survey on it. So

Yeah. So the hangar is not even your property?

Correct.

Correct. Okay. And there's the wood stack and some of the other things that I'm seeing here. So fence line in is yours. You don't have Okay. Thank you.

But I think the point with the fence is if you're we're going to do this right or we want you to do it right, we think board on board is probably if we can

And suggest I'll just add that your fence may be functional, but it's a little rusty looking And to I didn't get up and do a close visual inspection. But it's not a new fence. And so it doesn't, you know, it doesn't enhance the location. And I just think that, you know, one advantage of a solid fence or, you know, something like that does help with, certainly visual. Sure I'm totally about sound, but at least it makes But

it'll keep people out too. It's harder to hop a board on board fence than Chainlink.

Hate to say it, but I think they gotta come back. I think, you know, it's just I think we need to see the screening laid out. We need to like, if if we're and I think we should give them direction. If we're if we're expecting a fence there or if we're expecting solid, you know, solid greenery that will immediately provide cover, you know, whatever that is, you know, I think we need to probably point them in the right direction. So is that but I think we're getting we're starting to get into a situation where we're designing this on the floor. And I hate to do that. Yeah.

Yeah. Agree. Yeah. Just out of curiosity, though, if we're doing there there's standards on the gym we've used in the past, correct, for visual screening or for buffering if you will. And I'm assuming there are no buffering requirements because of the residential area, correct, in this?

Well, as a brand new this predates buffering. Okay. Right? This was built in the 1960s. Buffering didn't come around until a decade or so later. But now they're adding this use to the rear. So now we're discussing buffering. So is

there a standard for what we'll say is a residential neighborhood with a church in it?

There is and it's called the opacity standard. How visually can you see through this? And it's at between two feet and 10 feet above grade and believe me, the whole

It's something you've done for us similarly to show us what the opacity We

did it for Western Point. We're getting ready to do a follow-up with that one as well. Right. Right? Gonna go out and photograph that and redo it. That's what I was gonna get at. So if this is gonna be postponed a month, we'll do the same. We'll let you know that at some point the two of us will be out there. We it's a whole ordeal. We photograph the whole line and look for where and then I import it into AutoCAD and trace over it and that way I can figure out where the actual holes are and what percentage is actually meeting that opacity requirement where you're meeting the percentages.

So it's a whole thing and that way we can identify where the barriers are or I mean where the holes are in the buffer. Yeah, an easy way. I always tell people, hey, the easiest thing, just put about six foot high fence. You plant a tree every 30 feet, an evergreen or deciduous tree about every 30 feet along that line and you're done. Never have to worry about it again.