Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

I'm going to call to order this the regular meeting of the city of Wayneboro Planning Commission, Tuesday, September 16th, 2025. Mr. Vice Chair, would you lead us in the pledge of allegiance? I allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. All right. Thanks everybody for coming out this evening. Uh we have an agenda. Do we have a motion? I move that we adopt the agenda as present. I'll second. All in favor?

Any opposed? Hearing none, the motion carries. All right. Uh, up next we have the review and approval of our of the June 17th meeting minutes. Uh, do we have Has everybody had an opportunity to review those? Yes. Motion to conclude. A second. Second. All in favor?

Any opposed? Hearing none. Motion carries. All right. Uh, on to substantive matters. We have a conditional use permit to allow a multifamily building in the CB Central Business District 620 West Main, formerly the General Wayne Hotel, tax map number 55. Let me try that again. 45-2-58 by Robert W. Miller Jr. General Wayne Hotel LLC representing Miller and Associates, Inc. Now turn it over to the capable uh hands of our staff for presentation. Yes, good evening. Uh, this is the first of two applications tonight for the General Way Hotel. This first one is for that conditional use permit. And just quickly, um, we do have two conditional use permits on the agenda for tonight. So, I'll just do the slide for you all at once. Um, conditional use permits do allow for a case-by case review of uses, which may be but are not always compatible with the neighboring uses. The use must be consistent with good zoning practice, have no more adverse be no more adverse to health, safety of the comfort of persons living or working in the area than uses that are permitted by right in that district. And then be no more detrimental economically or otherwise to property or improvements in the surrounding area than uses generally permitted within that district. And with that, this application is for uh the former General Wayne Hotel, which is located on West Main Street. uh sort of sandwiched between the Good Sheeperd Anglican Church and then also the Reynold Ham Funeral Home and Cemetery or excuse me, crematory. And it is the parcel that stretches from West Main Street back to Federal Street. Quick look at the front and rear of the former hotel. So, the request tonight is to allow for a multif family building in the CB district, which is our central business district. Um, multif family buildings are permitted by CUP in this district.

The applicants have plans to renovate the former general hotel into 38 to 45 market rate apartments, which would be a m mix of efficiencies and then one and twobedroom units. Um, a quick look at the zoning of the surrounding area. Um, as I noted, the property is in the CB district and it is also within the downtown historic district. As far as the um city's comprehensive plans 2008 land use map, um the subject property is in the downtown core area. Um and the comp plan uh does encourage residential development and conversions in this down core downtown area and makes a note that the success of the downtown as a designation for residents and visitors along with it being a preferred business and residential location is critical for the positive growth of Wesboro. Um staff therefore believes the the cup does comply with the city's comp plan. The CB district does not have parking requirements. However, the applicant is planning to provide some parking. Um they have leased uh 20 spaces in the lot across the street. There will also be parking provided along the alley side, which I'll show you here in just a moment. And then there can there is additional street parking that can be found on West Main Street. Federal Avenue and then also Maple Avenue. Um the reason the CB district does not have parking requirements is because this district is intended to be a little bit denser in nature and therefore more walkable and less car dependent. Um, there are a number of benefits to this in a downtown core downtown area, including promoting that walkability and also reducing development costs, increasing the density in that core area, and also gives the private market the ability to decide what parking a project actually needs. And so, quickly, uh, this is that side alley that runs from West Main to Federal Street. And the applicant has

indicated they'll be providing some parking at somewhere along this stretch. They've also leased 20 lots in that parking lot lot across the street. And then there is also on street parking that is available on Maple, West Main, and then Federal Street. There will be minimal traffic impacts in this area given the existing existing street network. Um it is completely built out in this area and there's no uh and this is this will not be changing with this potential um uh rehabilitation into multi-use. Um the applicant did meet with public works um as part of their uh due diligent process and determined that the existing infrastructure that is in place around the building is adequate um but there could be a need for an additional water uh connection for the sprinkler system for the building. And then finally, the project is not likely due to the nature of the apartments and who they're likely to be targeted to have a significant impact on the local school system. And so with that, staff is recommending approval. Happy to answer any questions you may have. Questions for staff?

I'll save it for the All right. Thank you. Thank you. We are now going to open the public hearing into the conditional use permit to allow multif family building in the CV central business district at 620 West Main Street, formerly General Wayne Hotel, tax map number 45-2-58. Robert W. Miller Jr., General Wayne Hotel LLC, representing Miller and Associates. Given the nature of our agenda this evening, we are going to be using the uh timer. I believe we have it set for four minutes. So, uh, when you speak, if you come up to speak on any item on the agenda, this or others. Um, the little green light will go on when you start talking, the little yellow light will come on when you have 30 seconds or something. How much time?

30 seconds. 30 seconds left. And then when the red light goes on, please wrap up your remarks. Um, that being said, is the applicant here on this uh on the one that we're having the hearing on right now? And would they like to speak? Yes. Proceed, please. Just state your name, please.

Hi, my name is Jesse White. I'm business partners with Robin Miller and a partner in Miller and Associates. Um, we have got the General Wayne under contract and Alisan did a really great job of uh encompassing the project that we're hoping to deliver here. Um, I'd like to use my time to kind of give you a background of who we are. Um, we the way that we operate is that we are the ownership group, meaning we purchase the property and we don't do merchant building, which is when people buy something and they sell it, they flip the apartment building. We're long-term holders. So, as Robin likes to say, we buy things and hold them till we die. So, that means we're going to be a long-term partner and investor in Wsboro. Um, our company is also the developer. It's Miller and Associates. Uh, we specialize in historic renovation. We've got extensive experience in Richmond, Virginia, and then right down the road in Stanton. We've done the Old Western State Hospital. We did the Stanton Steam Laundry, and we've just most recently done the Arcadia building right on the downtown uh Beverly Street. So, I think total in Stanton, we've done somewhere over close to 200 apartments, probably 100 condos, we've done 49 hotel rooms, we're about to do 43 more. And in Richmond, we've built over a thousand apartments and we're in North Carolina as well. And the point I'm trying to make is that we're effective operators. We're good at what we do. We what we tell you we're going to do, we're going to do it. We're going to do it when we tell you we're going to do it. And we will deliver um highquality housing units for downtown Wesboro. Um so we are also the general contractors. That's another group called Horizon Construction. And we have been operation for 20 years. And we specialize again in historic renovations. It's very nuanced. It's a, you know, if you're building new construction, it's kind of easy to move a wall one foot, but when you've got a building that's been around since, you

know, 1890, it's a little bit more strict. So, we're very skilled in that. And then we have a a property management company as well called Monroe Properties. We manage the properties, the lease up, the maintenance, and everything. So, we control the entire life cycle of real estate deals. And again, we we build them like we're going to own them forever, which means we do it right. We do it right the first time. And um and you know, we're really excited about this opportunity. As I mentioned, we've had a big impact in Stanton and we're really excited about the prospect of entering into Wesboro and we hope that the General Wayne is the first of many projects we do here. And with that, I'll open it up to any questions.

Thank you so much. I saw in the application that you said there could be a range from 38 to 45. I I was just wondering what could cause the discrepancies. Is it like the size of the units or different amenities?

The design is so we do everything based uh on the historic tax credit program which has very strict regulations at the state level. It's the Department of Historic Resources. At the federal level, it's the National Park Service. So, we will go through many iterations of the design with them to um preserve the historic integrity. So, I wanted to be conservative in our estimate. I know that's kind of a wide gap, but sometimes they'll say, "Hey, we want to leave this space open to preserve some item." And so, we might lose a unit, we might pick up a unit. So, the reasoning behind that is really the design and the historic regulations. Okay.

But my my guess would be that we're going to be closer to the lower end of that. Maybe 38, but it wouldn't be less than 31. Uh I don't think so. Right now, as we have it planned, we're planning for 38. Okay. And you know, we're in the process of we've got it under contract and we're going through the first review with the Department of Historic Resources. So, I I can't answer for them until I I know for sure. And these are listed at market price. Was there any intent to have like a couple units dedicated to affordable housing or

So we don't tend to do affordable housing or income uh income based units, but we what we say we deliver is sort of a workforce housing. You know, we're not trying to we're not going to put a pool in the backyard and charge 3,000 bucks a month. We're trying to deliver economical rents so that people can live comfortably, have a nice apartment, and stay there for as long as they want. Okay. Do you have a sense of what those costs will be on those rentals from the one-bedroom to the efficiencies to the two-bedroom?

You know, I I do not, but if you look at our company website, monopropies.com, and you look at the Stanton listings, I would think that there they will be somewhere around that range. Although we're looking for comparative properties in Wesboro and I don't see a ton that are that have been done in the downtown recently. So, we don't have a good comp yet. So, I can't give you a hard number, but you know, we're if you look at our rent comps on our website, that'll give you a good idea. What are they renting for in Stanton?

I think, you know, it really depends on the unit because they're historic units. They're not cookie cutter. You know, we might have one studio that's got two big windows. We might have one studio that's got less square footage, but I think, you know, a studio for 800 to 900 and then the one bedrooms and two bedrooms, it's really I'm not quite sure yet, but 1,100 something around that range.

That was all question. All right, we have any additional questions for the applicant? Thank you so much for being here. All right. Thank you. All right. Uh, do we have anybody signed up to speak at the public hearing? We do. The first speaker signed up is David Guyger.

Hi. Good evening. Uh, my name is David Guyger. Address 701 Locust Avenue. I'm here representing the Wsboro Historical Commission. As chair of the commission, we looked at the conditional use application. Uh the only two areas we were concerned with was the demolition areas and we have uh realized that those areas need need to be demolished. historical features of the General Wayne are being preserved and that's uh a very good point for with us. So in general uh this project is is a good uh start for Waysboro and we're happy to see see that that property being utilized in the way it's proposed. Thank you.

Thank you. And then the last speaker we have signed up is David Golden.

David Golden. I'm the owner of the property. I'm the owner of the parking lot across the street from the property that's leasing them to spaces. I own several other developments here in Wesboro and downtown Wesboro. And this was a recruitment process that we pursued because as we looked at once we acquired the property from Fishburn, how we could best utilize the premises, we felt like the best alternative was the multifamily housing. and we looked at partners or teaming up with someone to bring them to Wingsville to assist Robin Mill Associates as an excellent candidate because what they've done in Stanton is extraordinary with what all the work the uniqueness and versatility of the housing and this is a reason why and he understated you know what they've been able to achieve and the number of other locations Richmond the Manchester area they're in Elizabeth City North line in working and I think that's what we need in downtown Wesville for us to continue to thrive and the the pace in which it's changed and I think the extraordinary job the city government does especially the staff members that you know work here on a daily basis. That's all I have to say. Thank you.

Thank you. Um so that is all we have signed up for this one. And I think there could be some confusion that there are two requests related to um this property. So one is to have the conditional use permit for apartments and the one we would be covering next is specifically to the demolition. But because of that confusion, I'm happy if there's anybody else that would like to speak for this, they can come up and state their name at this time. So is your name Charlotte Combmes? Yes. So there you you did sign up for the second one, but if you'd like to come up and speak at this one, that's fine also. Sure. Yeah.

Hi, I'm Charlotte Combmes at 244 Josh Lane and I I just have a a question about uh the parking. Um, I go to Main Street United Methodist Church and we kind of use that parking lot some for uh our church and I was just wondering the 20 spaces that are going to be leased out like are the people have to in the apartments will they have to pay for that parking or it will just be completely reserved? We haven't made that determination at this point. just reserving parking, working out a deal so that we can provide parking. I do not know they will be charged.

Like they'd have to buy a permit or something to park over there. We, you know, we really do it on a case by case um basis. You know, we've got plenty of apartment buildings where you rent and there's just a parking spot. It's not, you know, it's not an extra fee. Yeah, at this stage I don't really want to speak for anybody or any partners because we have a lot of balls in there. Yeah, we will at some point. Do you all own the parking lot or you just lease it from somebody else? We releasing it from Okay. Thank you.

Thank you. Anybody else not signed up that would like to speak on this particular application? All right. hearing. No other people who'd like to speak. I'm now going to close the public hearing as previously set forth. Do we have any further discussion? No. All right. Do we have a motion? I move that we approve the certificate of appropriateness as presented. We're up. We're still on the C. We're up one on the CUP. So, we need that we need the conditional use permit first. Sorry. Yes. I move that we approve a conditional use permit to allow a multif family building in the CB central business district.

I will second. All in favor? I. Any opposed? Hearing none. The motion carries.

All right. Next on the agenda, we have a certificate of appropriateness to demolish port a portion former kitchen of a contributing structure in the downtown historic district located at 620 West Main Street, formerly the General Wayne Hotel. Tax map number 45-2-58 by Robert W. Miller Junior General Wayne Hotel LLC representing Miller and Associates. Turn it over to staff. Okay. And this application again is for the uh former General Wayne Hotel and is to demolish two portions of the building which it the building itself is a contributing structure in the downtown historic district. The downtown historic district was established in 2001 and encompasses an area with about 42 contributing structures and most of these were built between 1806 and 1951. The General Wayne Hotel itself was uh designed and built in 1937. Um it was added on to in the 1950s and the big part of that was that four-story rear edition. It is then re renovated and added on to in the 1960s and uh based on research that's likely when the one-story kitchen and hallway which are the subject of the certificate of purpose were added onto that building. Um and and the building the overall building itself has had a significant impact on rens recent history but not so much the hallway and the kitchen portion that are the subject of the certificate of appropriateness tonight. So, the request is to demolish the one-story kitchen on the building's eastern side and the one-story hallway on the building's western side. Um, as we've just heard, the remainder of the building, the main structure will be renovated into apartments um about 38 to 45 and it is contingent on uh that approval of the CUP application by city council. Um and this renovation will be per the US secretary of the interior

standards for rehabilitation. Uh the applicant will be using the federal and state tax state historic tax credits for the rehab and the use of these programs will require abiding by these standards which provide the framework for the preservation and rehabilitation of historic buildings and properties. So the two areas that excuse me will be demolished is are the uh the kitchen area that is the area right here and then also that singlestory hallway which is right here on the building's western side. Again, the kitchen is located right here on the alley side. And that is that one-story building right here, brick edition on the back. The second is the one-story hallway in the opposite side of the building, which is extremely hard to see in the aerials, but this is it right here, sort of mid center of the building, right next to the church. And then a couple photographs showing the uh state of the two additions. Uh this is the kitchen. Uh the roof has partially collapsed. Um the floorboards have uh been compromised. There's water damage. Uh looks pretty not in very good shape. And then the hallway edition uh foundation, brick foundation has been compromised. And again, it also has uh roof integrity issues. So when evaluating COAs, there are uh several evaluation criteras that need to be considered when making a decision. This is the first of nine. And the first is whether or not the building or structure embodies distinctive characteristics of a type period style or method of construction, represents a

work of a master, possesses high artistic values, or is associated with the events that made significant contribution to the broad local history or is associated with historically significant persons. While the general way itself does meet this uh criteria, has had a significant impact on Wayne'sboro's history, uh the kitchen and hallway additions less so. Uh these were likely built during the renovation in the 1960s. uh they do not have any distinctive characteristic characteristics in building style or quality um and have had little impact uh those individual pieces of the building on the local history. Second criteria is whether or not the building or structure contributes visible architectural value to and provides historic continuity with properties within the same block including both sides of the street and viewshed. The General Wayne Hotel itself is visible from West Main Street and Federal Avenue and the kitchen edition is visible from Federal Avenue. The hallway edition is not particularly visible via West Main Street or Federal uh Federal Avenue. Um and that's due to the proximity of the church and also the existing vegetation in the area. um and so does staff's opinion that either addition has significant impact or contributes to the historic continuity of the uh surrounding properties. Third uh criteria is whether the building of structures of such age, authenticity, unusual or uncommon design, setting, workmanship and materials and whether such design quality and workmanship and traditional materials could be reproduced. Um kitchen hallway portions are not particularly distinct and could be reproduced uh using modern uh materials and workmanship to a greater uh quality. Fourth is specific plans for the site should the structure be demolished. Um and the applicant is intending as we referred to renovate the original building of the General Wayne Hotel into uh apartments.

Then whether is economically or practically feasible in the opinion of a qualified structural engineer and/or building trades professional to preserve or restore the structure. The applicants did have a review of the General Wayne Hotel building conducted by a licensed architect. The architect did recommend demolition of the K kitchen and hallway portions due to the existing status of those pieces of the building, stating that demolition would allow for the restoration of the original exterior facades. The city's building official did make a site visit and confirm the conditions uh as stated by the applicants for the kitchen and hallway sections. Sixth criteria is whether property owner can make alternative or economically viable uses of the property. Um, the kitchen hallway portions of the building would require significant renovation work to bring back up to uh, standards. Um, and would likely be cost prohibitive. Seven is whether relocation may be appropriate or feasible as an alternative to demolition. And in this case, relocation staff believes does not provide any advantage any advantages over rehabilitation or demolition. and then whether the existing structure is suited to or can be adapted to a proposed change in land use. The applicant is seeking a CUP to turn the former general way into apartments and the building should be well suited to this purpose. And then finally, whether the structure building is a contributing or non-contributing structure in the HO district. In this case, the overall General Wayne Hotel is a contributing resource, but the subject here is those two one-story additions. Um and those two additions are not particularly historic. The main structure is and that will be being preserved and therefore staff is recommending approval of this application. I'm happy to answer any questions.

Questions for staff? Thank you. Thank you.

Just a general comment. Um these uh packets that were given uh as uh planning commissioners are available to the public. This one was 101 181 pages. I highly recommend the public pulling this up because tucked in that's not being shared here, but in the packet is a history of the General Wayne and of Matt Anthony and it's fascinating. Uh including that the Eisenhowers were at the General Wayne as well as Elvis. Um so I highly recommend go on to the city site, pull that up, dig into somewhere page 60 or so and just enjoy the next 10 pages of history. And I don't know if that came from the applicants or it came from city staffers, but that foundation was greatly appreciated and should be read and viewed by all of Wesboro because it's a history of where from whence we were named and the individual where our name came from. So I just a general comment. Thanks for the extra meat in the potatoes in the packet that you guys gave us this time.

Certainly. All right. All right, we're now going to open the uh public hearing onto the certificate of appropriateness to demol to demolish the former kitchen and uh hallway of the contributing contributing structure to the downtown historic district located as listed in the agenda. Public hearing is now open. Does the applicant have anything to add uh at this point?

All right. So, one thing I just wanted to make uh very clear is that we won't do anything that's not within the um standards of the Secretary of the Interior. If we do something that disqualifies us, we will not obtain tax credits, which would be detrimental. So, we saw these two areas when we were going through our design. They looked like they were later additions. We're using our, you know, years of expertise. We're pretty confident that the Department of Historic Resources is going to agree with our our um request to demolish these areas and of course we need city approval as well. But if for whatever reason it those demolition plans were not to be um found to be in accordance with the standards, we wouldn't do it. So that's just one thing I I like to make clear. We're going to do everything by the standards of the Secretary of the Interior for the tax credits. Uh these two areas are, as you've seen, they're in pretty bad shape. There's also environmental issues in the kitchen, and we think that the cleanest, fastest, best way to deal with these areas is just to pull them out. And we think that doing so will remove structural issues, environmental issues, and then also, especially with that kitchen area, it will expose the original facade of the building. So, we we think it's kind of a win-win, and I just wanted to add that color, although the city has done a wonderful job with these applications. So, we appreciate everything you did. Thanks.

Thank you so much. We have anybody signed up to speak on this? Um, the first person we have signed up to speak is David Guyger. [Music] Good. Okay. Um, the next person is David Golden. Okay. And then Charlotte Combmes. Okay. That's all we have signed up. All right. We have anybody who's not signed up who'd like to speak on this. All right. Hearing nobody else who wants to speak. We're going to close public hearing as previously discussed. We have any further discussion? I'm curious the environmental issues you're talking about. I'm assuming since it was built in the 60s, is this asbestous?

There's more in there than ever. probably welcome. So, yes. No, I I thought as much because the with the age of the General Wayne, I don't think you're going to find much asbestous in the original structure. Probably a lot of horsehair and plaster. Let's hope so. All right. Any other discussion? All right. So, we have a motion. I move that we approve the certificate of appropriateness to demolish a portion of the former kitchen all the former kitchen and the distributing structure downtown for the onetory hallway.

I'll second. All in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Hearing none. The motion carries. All right. Thank you so much.

Um I I can as a citizen of Wayneboro who works downtown, I'm excited that something's happening now. So, um, next we have a zoning map amendment for property owned by the Waysboro School Board in the city of Wesboro located at 1200, 1100, and 1044 West Main Street, 325 Pine Avenue, 1017 West 12th Street and 0 Popular Avenue. Tax maps number 44-1-47-144-3 lots AFGH and I 44-4-8 lots 21 and 30 and 44-4-9 lots 1-6 is that 1-6 inclusive 1 2 3 4 5

yes uh from RG5 general residential and LB local business to CB central business staff.

Okay. Yes. This is the first of two applications tonight for the high school and collective properties. And as I'm sure we all know, this property is located on West Manning Street and it is bordered by uh Pine Avenue, some of West 12th Street, and then South Popular Avenue. So, the applicants have applied for a reasonzoning of this larger property. Um and it includes the high school and the associated facilities. And this also includes the Waysboro uh schools administration building and then also the building that houses the BPASS. Uh its current zoning is RG5 which is the general residential, RS5 which is the traditional residential and then local business and they're requesting resoning to central business. This resoning is is being requested um because it's needed to proceed with the second phase of the high school res renovation. Um and this phase will include a media center, a new classroom wing, a connector building, a one-story gym, and athletics complex. Um and the current the property's current zoning does not have enough flexibility um specifically regarding the area and dimensional standards that are required by the ordinance for building heights and then also setbacks. Uh so that is the main high school building currently. This is the existing classroom wing. Um and then that's the school administration building and also the VPASS building right here. So its current zoning is LB which is primarily that that area in the parking lot which I'll show here in just a moment. Um, but this district is meant for smaller scale uh commercial, really meant to service those nearby neighborhoods, just smaller scale close to neighborhoods. RG5 is the city's most flexible residential district. It allows for a variety of housing types, really getting at that sort of medium density

residential use. And then finally the RS5 which is our traditional residential is much more traditional uh small lot neighborhoods primarily single family detached but then the city does permit cornal lot duplexes in that district as well. The proposed zoning is the central business district uh and this is where the retail office and residential core of downtown is. It is denture in nature. It encourages more intense development and uh that walkability factor as I mentioned a minute ago. Um, and it provides for that vital downtown economy with commercial, civic, cultural, entertainment, and residential uses. Just a quick look at the the zoning map. The LB zoning is primarily that area in the of the parking lot on West Main Street. The majority of the property is zoned, that RG5, and then you have this small little area of RS5 down in the corner. As far as the city's comprehensive plans 2008 land use map, it does designate it as primarily institutional with a little bit of that downtown core area. Um the uses of the property will not be changing in this case. However, uh there has been a proper volunteer that does limit the uses to the Waysboro City Schools and associated closely associated uses uh to help stem any concerns about what could potentially be relocated here in the future. It ensures it remains a ways public school use. Um staff does believe this complies with the comp plan. So, as I mentioned with the property's current zoning, it is too restrictive regarding building heights and set setbacks. Specifically, um the RG5 and LB districts restrict building heights to 35 ft. The existing three-story classroom wing is about 50

ft tall. Uh the the new high school buildings will include a new three-story classroom wing and then also a three-story connector building that will be matching this height or potentially be slightly higher. Not very much higher, but slightly higher. Um and the CB district does allow buildings up to 100 ft tall. And so the applicant and because buildings that are 100 feet tall aren't generally found in this particular uh section of West Main Street um and would look very out of place. The applicants have um included a voluntary profer that would limit building heights to a total of 75 ft. So it allows them a little flexibility to go a little bit higher than 50 feet, but it does limit the building. So they will not be the full 100 feet that would be allowed by the CB district by right. And then here's a quick look of what that would look like. You have the existing classroom uh main entrance here and then you have that three-story connecting connector building here. And then there's that new three-story classroom wing right there with the one-story media center fronting on West Main and which should all roughly match the existing height of the building. So the second aspect is the setbacks. The current zoning um for the RG5 district has a front setback requirement of 20 feet while the LB district has a front setback requirement of 10 ft. The CDB district does not have a uh setback requirement. Instead ha has that build to requirement. So you have to build to the back of the right of way instead of a setback requirement. Um this is where

that second application after this one tonight comes in. The applica applicant is seeking a conditional use permit to modify this built build to line requirement. Um the concept plans show the new high school buildings um indicate that the the media center will be set back three feet from West Main while that new three-story classroom wing will be set back about 17 feet. So it kind of falls in the middle of what's required by the CB district and by the RG5 district. And you can see that this is provided by the applicants. It's a concept. This is that media center right here. Has about three foot set back from the back of the right of way. And then the main three-story classroom wing is set back about 17 ft from the right of way. And then here again is a couple renderings of what that would actually look like. This is the media center here and that three-story classroom wing right here. And then finally, as I noted previously, the CB district does not have parking requirements um because the district is meant to be denser in nature and more walkable and less car dependent. However, the high school is located approximately half half mile from Wayneboro's main downtown core area. Um and parking is more of a concern in this case because of the need for parking for uh staff, students and then any events that the high school may have. Um since there are no parking requirements in the CB CB district, the applicants have volunteered to maintain their existing parking spaces which is totals 247 spaces um going forward. So there will be no reduction in parking on the site. And so finally, staff is recommending approval with the profers um as

volunteered by the applicants. And I'm happy to answer any questions you have. Can can you go back to the uh plat map that showed the property line and the or the map overhead map that showed the So that's the three feet set back is from the edge of the property line. That'll be basically three feet from the sidewalk, right? Yeah. Okay. Essentially, that's the way it looked. I just wanted to double check. Yes. Thank you. Do we have any other questions for staff?

Not for staff, for Dr. Castle. Um the voluntary profiter to limit the height to 75 ft. I'm just going to assume that u that had no impact on the design.

That would be correct, mayor. My understanding that representative from the engineer firm is here. Generally, we're building back at the same height. It could be slightly over the 50t and there may be u some mechanical units, a cooling unit or something on top of that. Uh we would not expect to approach the 75 ft. I would I would think 55 at most. Would that be generally accurate? Okay. It would be close on the 50. Thank you there.

And there's no notion that you're un you know unnecessarily with that proper prohibiting some future upward growth literally upward growth. I I would not expect sir. So I'm not the structural engineer but I think that would involve a a foundation and a lot of issues from the ground up. So I don't think it we would um be able to just add stories to that. No. I believe this is um what we're going to have for the next few decades. Anyway, all right. Other questions that I could answer?

While I have the podium, I would like to thank the city for their work um the staff at at zoning and building and just a city um overall for their cooperation with this project. It's a large project and a lot to it. So, thank you. Does the new buildings affect the location of the football field?

It will not. It will be close. Um I don't know the exact measurement there. Um but it it will not affect the football field and there are um we have we do know of other uh locations that have a similar um distance from from the end of the field. there will be a fence uh between the field and the um existing area like there is now. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. K.

Just to comment that this is I believe one of the top 10 oldest operating high schools in the state of Virginia that was originally built during the Great Depression. Uh kudos to city staff, city leadership for getting the funding for the second phase for Dr. Castle and his staff. Uh this is just a celebration. Uh and I'm excited to see this happen. All right. Um we're going to open the Thank you. We're going to open the uh public hearing for the zoning map amendment resoning uh for the property owned by the Waysboro School Board and the City of Wesboro as listed in the agenda because I'm not going to repeat all of those numbers and letters for all of you. So, anybody who's signed up and I'm going to screw them up again. So,

yeah, no one has signed up to sign up. All right. Is there anybody who's not signed up who would like to speak on this application? Sure. Come on up and state your name and your address, please. We are Captain Kaylor Kennedy and we live on Pine right across from the VPASS building. So, I kind of mentioned briefly the VPASS building and the admin building are not included in anything that's going to have renovation or anything, but they were included in the resoning. So I think we just want to clarify they're not being touched right now but the reasoning could offer the possibility of that in the future. So we were just trying to clarify what that might look like.

So with the profer that the property would be schools andor school related uses then there wouldn't there that's all that can exist there. So it is that those properties are being reszoned to central business. But if anyone came and said, I want to purchase that building and renovate it to do something else, that would be the check that city staff would have of like, no, you're not a school or a school related use, so you cannot do that. So that is the protection in place that kind of keeps everything on that. And the hope was just to keep the um zoning consistent across the entire property um and knowing that that would remain as school uses is is the profer that's in place.

Ky 365. My only question is is more like the bill too. Right now at Vipos, there's a huge lawn and there's I don't know 20 30 feet between the sidewalk and the building. Sure. And I guess we're just kind of concerned about future plans. Are we planning on putting a three-story building there in the future? Is that something that's on the on the you know on your minds? So I guess that's I think that's what that's what we're kind of asking about.

So there is no plans for that now. Um, but I mean you rais a good point that if someday that building was to be torn down and built back as a school related use, then it would fall within the zoning then maybe they could, you know, it would encourage that. So I that that is a good point. Um, if that is something that the commission is concerned about, I'm sure we could think of a way to preclude that. A as a resident, I love this. I love what I'm seeing with the school and I love that on Main Street. I just don't want that up on like right there when I cross the street. Like we moved the bus stop down the street, which is great, but I would love to keep that just more small town school kind of town vibe and without having to be that urban in the residential area. That was our concern.

Thank you for all of the work that you guys have done. I'm kind of blown away. This is my first meeting. So, thank you for doing all the things that you do. Thank you.

Yeah. Yeah, and I do I do think with our ne once Alisanne covers the next request, I think it's going to allay some of those concerns and then and we can talk through it, but I I think that we'll cover that because the next one would be for the conditional use permit to say that nothing has to abide by the build to line and you could add a con, you know, you could add a condition that you wouldn't want buildings within, you know, not just here, but anywhere on that property to to build to the build to line if that makes sense. But it might be helpful if she gives that presentation and then we could go back to it.

So, um, do we want to vote on this now or do we want to wait and hear the next presentation and then vote on both of them together or do we want to are we ready to vote on this? I'm ready to vote on this. All right, then. Do we have a motion? I I'll make the motion to uh approve the zoning request. A second. All right. All in favor? I. Any opposed? Hearing none. The motion car.

Thank you. Please note that Steuart abstained. Um, okay. Next, we're going to talk about the build two line requirements. This is a conditional use permit. use to permit the modification of the build to line requirement in CB Central Business District property owned by the Waysboro School Board in the city of Wayneesboro located at 1200 1100 and 1044 West Main Street 325 Pine Avenue 1017 West 12th Street and 0 Avenue tax map numbers 44-1-47-14 44-3 lots AFGH and I 44-4-8 lots 21 through30 and 44-4-16 lots 1 through 16. Thank you. Take it away, staff.

Okay. Yes. So, this is the conditional use permit to modify that build two-line requirement for the high school properties. Uh so, as just heard, the applicants have applied for reasonzoning of the property to central business. Um and that central business district does have that 70% buil minimum build to line requirement. Um and the second phase of the high school renovation will not be able to meet this requirement. Um so the applicants have requested to modify that requirement in the CB district and it is contingent on the approval of that resoning application. Uh so quickly uh that build two line requirement is the area running along the property line in which the building facade must be built and this is generally on the back of that right of way. So in this case, it'll generally speaking be at the back of the sidewalk that runs along the the the high school property. And its intent is to create a consistent street wall and frame the street to create um aesthetically pleasing spaces in Wesboro. You can really see this impacted on the um block of of uh West Main Street or Main Street as it runs from Wayne Avenue down to Arch Avenue. You can see how the buildings hug the sidewalk, the street, really creating that sort of traditional uh that core downtown feeling. Uh so this is the section of the zoning ordinance where those requirements are found. It's section 98-2.6.3.8 non-residential development standards and non-residential districts. That does have that 70% build two line requirement. And here again is a quick look of that of the area zoning which is that LBR or G5 and RS5 currently and potentially BCB in the future. Then as far as the city's comprehensive plans 2008 land use map, um in this particular case, the uses of the property would not be changing with the CUP request will remain uh Wayneboro

school uses. Um and this is consistent with the comp plan designation. And so to get a sense of the existing development on West Main Street, um as you come down the stretch of West Main, it is more of a traditional uh sort of smaller commercial development style. You do have buildings set back from the street with parking lots in the front along the sides. Um you you have very few buildings that are built right up onto the back of the city's rightway. The one building that um is the closest is uh this building right here which I believe the city schools are in half of it and then a welding company is in the other half and they are the closest uh to the back of the ride ofway as any of the buildings are. And the proposal for the new buildings the city has will be very close or will mirror closely sort of what this building looks like for potential parts of it. Um here again you this is the view down uh main street as you're heading east. Got clients on the corner here and the high school over here. You can see the buildings are set back from the from the street there. And then the opposite direction here is that that building that I mentioned a minute ago, the welding supply company. Um, you can see that it is closer to the back of the sidewalk than other uh buildings along this corridor. Um, so waving this requirement will uh potentially let the bicycle match more buildings in the corridor than uh requiring it to be built up back against the curb. And then here again is that uh concept plan we were looking at a few moments ago that shows that one story m this will be the closest to the sidewalk with that three-foot setback and then the three story classroom will be set back a bit farther at the 17 ft.

And then another look at what that might look like from the ground level. Um, and with that, staff is recommending approval of the CUP modifying the build two line requirements for the high school properties. Happy to answer any questions.

And and one thing that I was thinking about, so this portion of the high school renovation, that would be a three-foot setback. So that's why you would be granting the conditional use permit because it wouldn't be meeting the build two line. But you could add a condition on the conditional use permit that says all buildings fronting the street where VPASS and this Pine.

Yeah. So Pine, if you said um the setback for any new building on Pine will not be closer than what is the standard that exists today on the existing zoning. Is it 20 feet or 10? RG5 is 20. Wonder if they meet that currently. I'm sure they're sitting back.

So, if the school board was comfortable and schools were comfortable with that, you could you could approve the conditional use permit and just say that you want to add a condition that um no building no new building fronting pine would be any clo or the front setback for any building's fronting pine would be 20 feet. if that was a concern for for

um pro probably what we should do is see if we have questions for staff and then maybe see if Dr. Castle's willing to weigh in on whether or not that's something that he might they might consider or if they need more time to think about that and we need to table this so they can think about that because I do think the schools are probably entitled to spend some time thinking about what that might impact that might have on whatever their uses future uses planning uses might be for that space. Um, but for now, so with that said, for now, do we have any other questions for staff?

I I have a question just thinking out loud. Would there be the opportunity to approve it as it exists tonight? And then if there's the opportunity to provide a voluntary profer was as was done previously, would that be amanable? So, I don't think I don't want to speak here with staff, but I think the only hook we've got to impact that is with this cup, right? wants the cup. I mean certainly if that's something that the school wanted if the school wanted to do it that way with it as a voluntary profer as opposed that way as a voluntary profer as opposed to the um so yeah so really since it's not a resoning it would be a condition of the traditional use permit.

I mean they'd basically be reapplying with that as a part of it. I don't think there's and staff can correct me if I'm wrong. I don't see a difference in us just deciding that again presupposing I mean obviously we want to address this concern but I also think um the schools are probably I want to give them a fair opportunity to think about this and make sure that we don't hamstring I mean if they want to do something there in the future um I just want to make sure everybody's got enough notice that we can make an informed decision. Um so all right no further questions for staff. Excellent. Um, we're going to open the public hearing on the conditional use permit as listed in the agenda. I don't know, Dr. Castle, if you're prepared to speak on that issue or if you would like to for us to and I don't know how potentially waiting for another meeting might impact this school's plans with respect to approval of this because we don't want to we also what I also don't want to do is put you 30 or 60 days behind the construction of a new school wing. there is some um sense of urgency in in moving forward with this plan uh because we are trying to meet a number of deadlines. I don't want to speak for the school board without the opportunity to to to consult with them regarding this although I do that often obviously um I don't perceive that there would be an issue that type of adjustment for um to offer that as a profer maybe utilizing the existing setback or the 20 foot setback that the state suggested certainly there are no plans now to to do to do that to build on that property. And I'm also assuming that if that were to be the case in the future, someone could approach this the this count to planning commission and council for the

request of a conditional use permit at that point. Um, so I guess I'm not sure of that process. I would need I need to understand if that's something that can happen tonight or if that's going to delay us till next month's meeting. So, I think what we what I feel like we might be prepared to do is to approve the conditional use permit with the added condition that no that any new construction on pine on the lot on pine must meet the 20 foot setback set forth in the I don't must meet a 20 foot setback.

And then I I think you're exactly right. If there was some intent to change, if the school decides in 10 or 15 years that, hey, we want to build a shiny new whatever there that you could come back and seek an additional conditional use permit to modify this conditional use permit that would allow notice and comment just like this and and either approval or I think we're comfortable. I'm certainly comfortable with that and I'm going to say for the school division that we are we the the intent here is obviously Main Street but because of the nature of the the launch it has encomp encompassed pine

and this recommendation if they made it would go to city council at their meeting on the 21st for like a final say. So you would have some time also to relay that information to to your board as well. Okay. So, I'm City Council put that condition on top of the, you know, if we just approved the uh permit as requested and then the council can add that language in if they see fit. I I don't feel compelled to add any additional language to the motion uh as recommended by city staffers at this moment. And if the that gives freedom of time for the council to they want to weigh in on it and at that moment in time, so be it.

Yes. Yeah. So, that is definitely up to you all. You're the recommending body to city council. So, you would be recommending that it either be approved as is or recommending that it be approved with that language. Um, but the ultimate decision is theirs, the C city councils.

I I hear what you're saying about letting council do it. I think that we've had the benefit of hearing from the folks here tonight who have this specific concern. And I think if it has, as far as we can foresee in this moment in time, no um additional impact on the schools or on this particular use. I don't see any reason for us not to include it tonight just because we've we've heard from these folks and they've taken the time to come to our hearing and we've all discussed it. And then if Dr. castle. It turns out this doesn't work for some reason. I'm sure he planned to be there for the city council meeting anyways and he can let the council know. Um I So that would be my just my observation.

Yes. Thank you. And just for just for clarification, so you're saying add the additional language tonight that we would to our that I mean that would be my thought is we have the the folks who have taken the time to come and talk about it here tonight. um you know and I don't it doesn't seem like it's going to change materially change any other plans. It's not going to prejudice the schools in any ways. So I mean I think that's agree that we could I would be comfortable going ahead and doing that here tonight. Um and then council can decide if they like our recommendation or not and they can because I think they're they're not bound by I mean if they say hey this we don't we're not interested so be it.

Yeah. They could approve it without that recommended condition. Yeah. But I think it gives us an opportunity to to set the language set the right parameters for language while while we're having an informed discussion about it. Agreed for me personally. All right. Um Okay. Does anybody else Is there anybody else Well, I think I opened the public hearing, right? I open the public hearing. Thank you, Dr. Castle, um for participating in Q&A. Um sorry to put you on the spot. Um is there anybody else who uh would like to speak? It's not signed up on the public at the public hearing before I close the public hearing. All right, we're going to close the public hearing. Oh,

sorry. Keep that open for just a second. Ryan Bosard Valley Engineering. I'm working on the high school edition with Dr. Castle and school board. Um, so when we are looking at that, um, additional language, how would that impact, and this isn't a part of the plan, but I'm just trying to think, you know, for the school board here to an addition to one of those two buildings, would the language be, you know, if it's a new structure and there would were to be an addition and let's say that building is currently 19 ft off the property line. We I don't know what it is tonight. I I'm not sure. So, I just want to make sure that we take that into consideration as well.

Yeah, there could be several ways to do it. It could be a set number. It could be any new building or addition to a building existing on Pine could be no closer than the front facade currently and then that would be a way that you could, you know, add on because we don't know what the distance is today. Right. Sure. Yep. I think that's my only uh thing to add there. Sure. I I appreciate that. I think that's probably a good idea to say since we don't have the benefit of knowing exactly what the number is. May I say it would just be no closer than no closer than the exist. Yeah, because based on what we heard from the folks that commented, I think that's the concern. Yeah. Um Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Thanks.

All right. Now, going once, going twice, we're going to close the public hearing uh as listed in the agenda. Do we have a motion? All right. So we have a motion uh as previously discussed. Were you good with that? Yeah. Yeah. So I would plan that it would be the um any building any new building or addition on an existing building fronting on Pine would be no closer than the current structures closer to the road. So the the motion is to approve the conditional use permit as set forth with that added condition. Yeah. Do we have a second? I'll second.

All right. Uh, do we need to have any further Sorry, I skipped further discussion. Do we need to have any further discussion? It's been a long week. I I'm sorry, y'all. Um, it's I know and it's Tuesday. It's been a long been a long couple weeks. Um, the um do we need to have any further discussion before we vote? No further. All right. All in favor uh for the motion as set forth. I I Any opposed? hearing none. The motion carries and I will abstain. All right. Thank you so much. We uh appreciate everybody's willingness to work through that. Hopefully, we've addressed some of your concerns um as residents over there.

Um all right. Lad, not last, but next on the agenda, we have a certificate of appropriateness to demolish a contributing structure in the Tree Streets historic district located at 737 Walnut Avenue. Tax map number 54-4-35-9 by Karen and Timothy Cook. And we're going to hear from staff first. Okay. So, this is a certificate of approprius for 737 Walnut Avenue, which is a contributing structure in the Tree Streets historic district. Um, so the Tree Streets historic district was also established in 2001 and it now encompasses an area with about 595 structures uh 454 of which um are contributing and the majority of these buildings are residential and were constructed between 1890 and 1950. Uh the applicant has requested to demolish the house located at 737 Walnut. Uh it requires expens extensive repairs and involving multiple aspects of the building and also includes asbestous abatement. Uh they do have plans to rebuild a similarly sized house that is compatible with the existing neighborhood. So this is the ex excerpt from the national or excuse me the nomination form for the historic district 737 Walnut can be found lower on the lower side of the page and it just consists of one sentence. one-story house of synthetic framed synthetic sighted frame construction with ashalt asphalt singled gabled roofs double hung windows and se several additions. So, this particular property is located um at the on the corner lot of Walnut Avenue as it meets 16th Street. Uh is uh

sort of this is the main Walnut Avenue and there's this sort of alley that comes over and then Walnut Avenue continues down here and this is the location of the current house. Look at uh exterior photos. This is the view of the house from Walnut Avenue. uh the side of the house as you go down here, the rear of the house and then some interior photographs. Um this is in I believe the basement. We've got some asbesus down here. Uh there's also a specus that's been found in the kitchen area along with the um uh what they're calling the stucco scratch coat on the exterior of the original structure. Um couple views of the crawl space and this is uh photographs of repairs needed um in the roof ceiling area of the house. And as before, there are those nine criteria that need to be evaluated when considering um certificate of appropriateness applications. Um the first is whether or not that building or structure embodies distinctive characteristics of a type, period, style, or method of construction. Um represents work of master possesses high artistic values or is associated with events making significant contribution to the area's history. Uh in this particular case the architect is unknown and it is the house is not associated with any significant local event or historically significant persons. Um it has been added on to over the years and has only been used as a residence. Second criteria is whether or not the building or structure contributes visible architectural value to and

provides hor historic continuity with properties within the same block including both sides of the street and the viewshed. So, in this section of Walnut Avenue, there are three houses total on the block. Um, and all three of those houses are listed as contributing structures within the Tree Street's Historic District. Um, the houses on the opposite side of Walnut Avenue actually front on Maple rather than Walnut and Walnut itself. Uh, well, first, uh, these are the other two houses that are located on Walnut Avenue. This is at the on the upper end on the corner at on that along that little alleyway that leads to this part of of Walnut. Um so this is 705 Walnut. This is 721 Walnut. 721 Walnut is actually a um grandfathered um quadplex I believe. And then this is the view of 737 Walnut from the street. Um, it is visible from Walnut Avenue as you head down to 16th Street down here. Um, as you can see though, it does have extensive landscaping and is only sort of seasonally uh visible from 16th Street due to that landscaping. This is looking up um towards the house which is located behind the trees here um from 16th Street. So the third criteria is whether the building of structures of such age, authenticity and unusual or uncommon design setting workmanship and materials and whether uh those materials and workmanship could be uh reduced using traditional methods. Um, this house is not particularly distinct architecturally and a house of similar greater quality could be reproduced using modern building methods and materials. And then specific plans for the site should the bu structure or building be

demolished and the architectural compatibility of those plans and uses with the properties within the same block including both sides of the street and viewhed. So in this case, the applicants are intending to build a new house on the lot. Um the house would be sighted slightly southeast, so a little closer to on uh towards 16th Street and the side and the location of the current house would be landscaped to create a sideyard between 721 and then 7 uh 37 Walnut Avenues. Um and the new house per the applicants would be about 1,800 square feet and would allow for single level living. Um the design of the new house uh would be based on the early 1900s cottages and bungalows um which would include an entry porch, deep eaves, a masonary chimney and a traditional 1212 roof roof pitch with dormers. And the exterior features would include fiberment for excuse me fiber cement sighting, architectural asphalt shingle roofing, fiberglass or middleclad windows, stone accents and then traditional paint colors on the home's exterior. These are two examples provided by the applicant of what they might build back onto the site. Um staff believes the proposed redevelopment is architecturally compatible with the existing neighborhood and would recommend uh conditioning the appro the certificate of appropriateness approval on the site's redevelopment according to what the applicants have said they will do. Criteria five is whether it's economically or practically feasible in the opinion of a qualified structural engineer or building trace professional to preserve or restore the structure. The applicants did have the house evaluated by a class A general contractor and there are extensive repairs required and this would include asbesus abatement um uh roof repairs uh plumbing,

electrical and HVAC upgrades um among other things. uh and it would be estimated to cost around $215,400. Uh this would not include um interior cosmetic fixes such as uh fixtures, appliances, cabinetry, other things to get it uh up to what the applicants wish. Uh the sixth criteria is whether property owner can make alternative economically viable uses of the property. This home is located in a residential uh neighborhood and can only be used as a residence per zoning. And then seven, whether relocation may be appropriate or and feasible as an alternative to demolition and staff does not believe in this case it provides any advantages or rehabilitation or demolition. Whether the existing structure is suited to or can be adapted to a proposed change in land use. uh there is no land use change with this application being proposed. And then finally, whether it is a contributing structure within the HPO district and 737 Walnut Avenue is contributing structure within the Tree Street's Historic District. And so with that, staff is recommending approval and suggests the following notion. Motion that the certificate appropriateness to demolish the contributing structure located at 737 Walnut Avenue in Wesboro in the Tree Streets historic district be approved with the condition that the replacement structure has the architectural aesthetic based on the early 1900s cottages and bungalows and includes those design elements like the entry porch, the deep eaves and the masonary chimney. So, with that, I'm happy to answer any questions you have. And the applicants are also here tonight.

So, I have a couple questions. Um, so the would the compliance with that architectural aesthetic, etc. be that'd be up to you guys to make sure that whatever they would build back there conforms with that. Staff would review that at that point. Um I I noticed on both of the pictures that they provided of um potential things they could build, they both had metal roofs and the proposed um at least their proposal suggested uh shingle. Is that something that conforms or doesn't conform with other historic structures in that area? I I tend to think of these older houses generally as having metal roofs, but I don't know if that's something if I want if I maybe the way to ask this is if I had a house like this that was a contributing structure in the tree streets and I wanted to take the metal roof off and put a shingle roof on it, would I have to get so that something that they could do without review?

Right. Okay. Um All right. I think those were my questions. Do we have other questions? Uh I have a question. Uh being that two items on the agenda tonight were both in historic or historically significant. Were the conditions that were placed on both somewhat from a general conformance standpoint by like a set of rules or is it by a bycase situation? They're looked at in a case by case application by application basis.

Okay. So this one in particular didn't have to be reviewed by like a architectural review board. Staff was able to do that.

Yes. So so the city does not have an architectural review board. Um so so what we do with these applications is we look at what is defined in the historic district. You know what did they say were the qualities and standards of the construction? What made it historically significant? So some you'll notice in those um districts they might have a really long you know three or four paragraphs going into all the details. Some like this structure it might be a sentence um that doesn't always that isn't always telling but often it is to the to the extensiveness or the contributing factors and then we as staff go through those nine criteria. We share with the applicant that, you know, the purpose of going through this exercise is to make sure something gets built back that does fit within the area. And so they're working with an architect that proposed certain guidelines and staff kind of just accepted those as they were proposals of what they wanted to build. They're flexible enough that I think, you know, it's not tying them to either of those two options shown, but just kind of reading this motion, it would at least give us the ability as staff working with our building department to kind of identify does it meet, you know, most of these standards. And to what extent is does a building get suggested for a certificate of appropriateness versus if it's that dilapidated then it's just you don't have to have a certificate of appropriateness.

So since I've been here I know I think there have been two that we I can think of two that we've done um and one might not have even been in the historic district the brick bank.

Okay. Yeah. think only one. Um, so it's not extremely common. I am not the expert on that. I'd be happy to get our building official here sometime to speak about that. The one that was kind of recently approved in the Port Republic neighborhood and didn't require because of its condition. We didn't take it through the COA process. Um, our building official did put together kind of a big document that he went out and took pictures and evaluated it and reasons why. Um, but I'd have to get him here to kind of speak on, you know, what are some of those differences he's looking at for those. Certainly, it's a it's a structural and kind of eminent safety issue or if you were to try to build on or change or alter that that feels like there's no path forward within the building code to have that be possible is my understanding, but I'm not a

correct. So if I have a historic contributing historic structure and I just let it get so dilapidated that it's about to fall down, I can just take it down without a certificate of appropriateness based on that review. So um there is a portion within our ordinance that talks about requiring property owners to kind of keep up historic districts, right? But that kind of falls in with all of the other property maintenance responsibilities when in the city um and kind of to what degree and level of enforcement our right

uh elected officials would like to see and and how they would like to direct us. So yes, the the it you know certainly there could be properties that you know are not well taken care of and then at a certain point become a problem. Our hope is that we you know catch those. Sure. But then what teeth we have to to really force owners to do things is is definitely things we could bring to the table to talk about like what is the city doing? What what could we could we be doing more? This is what that would mean. Some of those those things.

Yeah. I mean I think you can see my concern just is with equitable treatment between ones that we can save and people who put in the effort. And then I'm not saying the applicants are responsible for the state of the building to be clear as it currently sits, but certainly I don't want we don't want to create a situation where there's an incentive to avoid this process by letting a building become so dilapidated. Anyways, just an observation. Any additional questions for staff?

Can you go back to the pictures a minute Alisand of the interior of 72737? [Music] And when was this building act? When was this house actually built? I believe originally it was built around 1937. 1930.

1930. Okay. Go back one more there. All that is added after that because they weren't using asbestous in the 30s. So that's and that pipe insulation has never been on a pipe except for one or two pieces that I can see. Um that house has been renovated extensively. That's where you find in the asbestous set.

Yeah. Is the now the cost for the asbesus removal in and demo uh once you abate once you abate a certain amount of that asbestous you can dispose of that house as regular construction debris. Did that estimate take that into account? Yes. Okay. And it's still 215,000. Was 39 35

Are there neighbors? It's unfortunate David Guyger left as the representative of the historical Yeah. society because I was fascinated when I saw him here. I was like, "All right, he's going to be speaking on this because I'd be fascinated on their opinion on this because I struggle to make a decision without hearing some of the neighbors response, nor do I know if there's other people in the public that have requested to speak. We we do have one person signed up to speak. Um I know we fielded a couple calls about it. Um we did not receive any emails. I didn't take any of the calls, but I'm not sure if anyone was adamantly for or against. Most were just seeking information about what what was happening to the structure,

but we do have one person signed up to speak. Yeah. So, do we have any uh additional questions for staff? All right. Thank you. Um, let's go ahead and open the uh public hearing into the certificate of appropriateness to demolish a contributing structure in the Tree Streets historic district located at 737 Walnut Avenue tax map number 54-4-35-9 by Karen and Timothy Cook. Um, and I think the applicants are here. Somebody representing the applicants are here. Um, if there's anything you'd like to add to staff's presentation, we'd be happy to hear from you at this point. Please step up. I think well initially are you Mr. Cook?

Yes, I'm I'm Tim.

Okay. Thank you. Um, initially we wanted to um, our plan was, you know, when we bought the house was to renovate it, but the more we uh, had an inspector, structural engineer, and our architect here, Jeff Spees, um, the more problems that uh, we saw, and Jeff can speak better to those problems than I can, But um I there were some uh I mean the um renovations to that were made to the house over the years caused some structural problems. Um there's no record that they were um that there was uh done by any kind of code that they applied for. Um, so you know, I I really wanted to keep the house, but I don't even though it's it it doesn't seem if you saw the house, it it it doesn't seem of um much significant um historic uh I mean, there's no look to it that seems uh historically significant to me anyway. it it seems like there's a lot of add-ons and and uh but um I I I do think um I it just would be too much to um to renovate it uh because of all the problems. It it would just cause a fortune. Um, and I I do think um a new house within the integrity of the existing houses, the the historic houses too um would would be much better. Um and I think um it's it's um it would be a lot cheaper. Uh but not only that, I think it would

be much much much better, much more livable. Anyway, here's Jeff. Thank you. Sorry. didn't expect to speak tonight, but uh thank you. Well, thank thank you for

Good evening. Thank you. My name is Jeff Ste. I'm an architect in Charlottesville, Virginia. Um Tim and Karen brought me in to look at it. As we began to walk around the house, the question always kept coming up. Is is this the point where we tear it down? I said, "No, no, let's keep going. Let's keep going." Uh but as Tim said, as we began to explore the house and look at the various components, we realized there there's a lot more damage here than is showing up in a couple of photographs. to to the point about the asbestous. Uh, one of the pictures uh in the presentation is the original boiler. As far as we can turn, as as far as we can tell, it's it's a 1930s boiler. That's what's heating the house. All of the piping that comes out of that boiler and spreads throughout that crawl space basement area is all covered in asbestous. It's not This is the pile that was left over after they finished installing it everywhere. But the other two photographs uh we also identified crystis asbestous in the mastic in the kitchen area. And the original house as it's noted in the historic district application was covered in a synthetic product. It turns out that synthetic product was stucco that had asbestous embedded in the brown or the scratch coat which you can see this actually is a photograph of of the uh the old tar paper that's just dissolved and come away up in the attic. And you can see the the the L with the the what we call the scratch coat. It's that first layer of stucco that goes on.

It kind of fills in the voids and you build on top of it. You get finer as you go. But that layer all around the existing house has asbesus in it. So everywhere we're going to interface with that, whether it's replacing the old vinyl siding which is cracking and falling apart or replacing the windows that need to come out or redoing the trim that's rotted, everywhere we touch, we're going to be touching asbestous. And at some point you think, "Wow, how how do we do that safely?" Both for the occupants, for the workers, and for the neighbors. Um, everywhere the uh the company that drilled and tested uh holes on the interior, the perimeter of the house, we found that asbestous coating everywhere except one wall on the on the back of the house, which faces Walnut Avenue, where an addition was put on, apparently without a building permit. They removed that asbestous. What they did with it, I don't know. Were they wearing masks? I don't know. But they certainly uh created a very unsafe situation for themselves and the occupants at the time. So, what we'd like to do is renovate the house, bring it up to code. There are electrical problems. We need to replace the boiler. There is no air conditioning. Um uh there's no insulation, you know, really to speak of. Nothing meets codes. The windows all need to be replaced. And then the the final piece of this is the roof. So, we took several contractors up into the attic, which is non-habitable because there's no stairway up there. It's a pull down ladder. Somebody attempted to renovate the attic at one point and put in windows to turn it into habitable space, but it doesn't meet egress. It doesn't meet the fire code at all. What they did was they compromised the entire integrity of the roof system. What they had up there originally was a was a ridge board. So you have a single ply and you have rafters that meet and they butt up against that ridge board and you put a a horizontal member to tie the bottoms of those rafters together and you make what's effectively a truss. You make a triangle that transfers the load from the snow and the roof, the

dead load down through the exterior walls. When they took those rafters off and replaced them with smaller dimensional lumber that number one doesn't meet code for its size and its span and they didn't line them back up. so that they were at at opposing sides on the ridgeboard. In the inspection report, the inspector noticed that there weren't enough collar ties up there, but he didn't tell you why, and that's because they staggered all of the rafters. There's no way to support that roof at this point. So, they've completely compromised the structural integrity around the dormers in the upstairs attic where they took off the sheathing. In places, they put back an insulated sheathing product. I was able to identify that product, go to the website, and on page three of the installation guide, it says this is not a structural sheathing. So, there's no sheathing on the outside of the dormers. There's no shear capacity. None of it meets code where they replaced all of the windows in the dormers. There are no jack studs, also known as trimmers. There are no king studs. There are no headers for those windows. All of those are loadbearing walls.

So, I have no structural capacity anywhere left in the roof. So every builder we took up there to look at that roof all said the same thing. We've got to tear the roof off and do it over again. So we're looking at a considerable amount of structural work both in the attic but also there's some work down in the crawl space. Um the other issue about the crawl spaces if you saw in one of the photographs down in the crawl space we have exposed bedrock

which we can't effectively seal. I can't really use that. All the mechanical equipment's down there which it shouldn't be. It doesn't meet code. If we're going to put in a new system, I can't put it down there because there's really no way to seal off that bedrock and deal with the moisture issues that are coming from hydrostatic pressure from uphill. We are downhill on Walnut Avenue as you saw in the photographs.

So, at at some point you realize there there is no way to to renovate this structure, bring it up to modern building code standards, and make it safe for the occupants. um not without spending exorbitant amounts of money. And even at that point, when you do that, the owners will not have like a ground floor living. The bathroom is too tiny to get to be called accessible or for retiring in place, which is what most of my clients want these days. They all want ground flooror living. It makes perfect sense. And it's great for long-term future generations. Um even if we do all this work and spend all this money, we're still not going to get there.

I'm just curious, is it is the house balloon construction Uh, it's one story. So, it it may be, but it's it's not a balloon in the true sense that it would go up two stories, not have blocking within the walls, as far as I know. All right. Do we have other questions for the applicant or the architect? All right. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Um, who do we have signed up to speak?

Um, Kurt Lily has signed up to speak. [Music] Kurt Lily, 649 Walnut. Um, just about everything you've been talking about is stuff I've dealt with for six years. So, welcome to the neighborhood, the restoration game. Um, one thing I remind you, the way you get a 150 year old house in a neighborhood is by not tearing down a 90year-old house in the neighborhood. Um, that said, I understand the situation. What I didn't want to see was a house with vinyl sighting or stuckco up in the neighborhood where it stuck out like a sore thumb and it looks like they're planning on doing something that will blend in good and that would be great. I don't know how you enforce that, but I would love it if if there was a a good review process that would make sure that that does happen. And I guess that's all I got. So, thank you.

Thank you. All right. Do we have anybody who is uh not signed up who would like to speak? All right. Hearing nobody else who'd like to speak. We're going to close the public hearing uh as listed in the agenda at this time. Do we have further comment?

I guess my general concern is that a certificate of appropriateness is being used to avoid renovation. And as a result of that, the future fear then becomes, could someone purposely buy a house in a historic district that could be renovated and then say, "Well, I don't want to because it might be a little bit too much than I thought I was getting into." And then want to tear it down. In the packet, it seems like most of the structural um well, there was no hint of structural damage. Most of it was cosmetic. So, I guess that would be my general concern with

Well, looking at those pictures that Alisan showed right there and having been in construction for 40 years, all I can say is you a brave man to go up in that attic cuz I saw where them rafters were cut and there were no collar ties on that. Uh, that house is well beyond what anybody would consider re renovatable. if that's even a word.

I mean, my Yeah. So, so I share your concern about uh well, maybe I maybe to put a little finer point on on what my concern is is this twofold. Um this is a subjective analysis that we're going to consider on a case-by case basis for certificates of appropriateness. But I do feel some obligation both to prior applicants and people who have tried to save homes like this and future applicants and people who try to save homes like this to make sure that we have some consistency in the weight that we give the economic impact the economics of all of this right because you're right what we don't want is for somebody to buy a historic structure and say oops I'm out of money now it's time to tear it down right because that's what the econom economic analysis is and I think that's why by the way that that certificates of appropriateness are issued on a case-by case basis in a subjective manner. I um am not a construction expert um and am not a historic home expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I think uh Mr. Lily put it right. I think the thing that we ought to most significantly concern ourselves is with is conformance with the character of the preserving this historic resource to the extent it's a historic resource and certainly the fact that there's if you go back and look at the other entries in the contributing structures there's paragraphs and paragraphs of why they're contributing and this one says it is a contributing structure right which seems to visiate in favor of it maybe not being quite as contributing as others around it might be. But nonetheless, um you know, making sure that it fits into the character of the neighborhood um is is what concerns me. And I think that

that if we can't save something historic, making sure that what we're putting back is consistent with that character. Um and that's the reason that we have this case by case analysis. Um, I don't have an answer to the economic issue part of the analysis. And I don't know how we keep from setting that precedent other than by looking at prior times that we've done this and we've done these analyses. And it sounds like, if I'm remembering correctly, we've only had one. Well, and I think that's why we have nine like there's nine prongs, right? So

I think it's even most likely clear within our ordinance that economics alone should not be your driving factor. So if every if all eight prongs were absolutely not staff thinks that this should not be torn down and these are our reasons but then the economic one is is the argument then then you all would need to kind of take a serious look at that. Um but that's why they are case by case because they really do have to be looked at from like a much more holistic point of view. um you know, is it extremely visible from the roadway? Is it sitting in between two other existing structures? And you, you know, like what kind of what are some of those factors? Has it been added on to in ways that have um degraded its ability or its its contributions that it once had. Um so that's why there are nine prongs and not just one consideration. Um, so I offer that just the economics alone shouldn't be the only factor.

Yeah. And I think the other thing to remember about the economics is this is not a necessarily a binary analysis, right? This uh applicant could in the face of, for example, our denial of this certificate appropriate say, "Forget this. I'm going to walk away from this project and put it on the market and sit vacant for and become a blighted property and have all kinds of create and cause all kinds of other problems. So, I think, you know, it's it would not be fair to assume that in the event that we denied the certificate of appropriateness, they're going to go forward with some with what we all think from where we sit they ought to do to preserve historic resources or whatever it might be. So, I just feel obligated to point that out.

I've got a question to the architect. When you took your samples on the exterior, since it was a 1930s building, were you expecting to find sand and lime, which was the most common building materials in the 30s, and not asbestous? The samples were taken by Paragon. Yeah. Yeah. I'm familiar with Paragon, right? [Music] So I can't speak to the only way to determine [Music]

Y is electrical in that knob and tubing. At some point some of the electrical work was done without permits for them to goit.

No. Yeah. Yeah. I'm kind of surprised you found asbestous in the exterior of it cuz that was not a that was not the common exterior stuckle back in the 30s. It was sand and live. Correct. synthetic is often I think the definition of synthetic

you know and I was curious if the tree to address your point had any restrictions or covenants regarding new architecture you know building uh requirements because I know that could help existing homeowners try and maintain that aesthetic value so of the neighborhood

we're gonna talk a little bit about we've had I I've had some discussions with staff about um and Nigel and I have talked some about the historic districts in the city and the existing historic districts and um the fact that there's not unlike some other historic districts in other areas around us there's no architectural review um and um I think the based on some of the feedback that Nigel has relayed to me that he's gotten from the community I have asked and plan to ask on when we get to commissioner's correspondence for staff to give us a little education about how what that looks like in some other places and how architectural review works in historic districts so that we can either as a as a planning commission or as part of the comprehensive plan process make some educated decisions about some of that stuff

and thank you for that. You know, for instance, in our neighborhood, there's certain restrictions, covenants, guidelines. You know, you can't have sheds within 16 feet, right, of front and center of the home. So, I'm just curious if covenants and restrictions are still applied in the tree streets outside of the historical guidelines since we don't have an architectural review board. There may be current covenants or restrictions that would dictate future style.

Yeah. So, so I would think um you know the the setback [Music] um so like the shed example for example I think is a city ordinance that relates to setbacks and structures and fences and I remember this only because we had a discussion about fences at some point. Yeah. Yeah. And if a neighborhood does have covenants and restrictions that is not something that the city enforces. So we typically don't even have those.

Right. And Yeah. And so the the covenants of course are part of the right a part of the deed. And so that would be up to the other folks in the that to whom gosh you're I'm trying to remember my property class from my first year of law school. But whoever is the beneficiary of the covenant has to enforce those covenants. Anyways, yeah. So the I say all of this to say um this is an issue that has come has Nigel helpfully brought to my attention recently and it's something that I have asked staff to sort of help get us educated about because I know almost nothing about it. So educate me about it at least um so that we can start having more informed discussions about the some of these issues as they move forward. Um, but yes, I mean I there are certainly areas in the city where there are either public or private restrictions currently in place that would that are more restrictive than what the I think I'm saying I'm correct about this that are more restrictive than um than what the ordinances require. Um, and I I suspect though I don't know and I've never done any deed research that's probably not true of most of the properties in the tree streets because they were not developed as part of any part of plan of development or anything like that where those covenants would have been tied to to division. Um, right. So I know like in a lot of our newer neighborhoods for example, there are covenants that wind up part of that process because we're as they get developed that's part of what the neighborhood wants conformity the neighborhood wants to create. Um, but again, you know, I I couldn't say with these, but I'm just guessing that probably given the age, there's not there's nothing like that. Um,

thank you. It's just a just a observation. Uninformed. Just one quick point there. Obviously, building all the walls and put it ceiling glass. They could

Yeah. And that was the next question I was going to ask is, you know, again, I I don't know that we necessarily can think about this in sort of a binary way, right? Because the next person could do any number of things that were non-conforming with historic with the historic district that we without um you know, unless they violated some of the building maintenance codes and parked a bunch of cars in the yard or whatever. And that's the only one that I know of those because we see it in court all the time. But um so I think that's an important point and a good observation and one that I was going to try and make too is there are other things that could happen to this piece of property that are very inconsistent with the character of the neighborhood um without any feedback or restriction by the city.

I'm put on my realer hat for a second. Um, my heart hurts for you guys. Um, Virginia is a caveat emporo state, i.e. let the buyer beware. Uh, this property was sold. I'm looking at the MLS as is. Um, the inspection seemed to have done after the contract was signed, but before ratified. Um, I have folks from outside the state that are looking for Tree Street properties and nowhere else. I want to be in this tree streets. I mean, that's literally all they're looking for. I have concerns that we would be I know they're case-byase basis, but a president if you knock down a Tree Street home and build something up in my humble opinion in that particular area and corner, I think it would actually look more attractive in that area. But I'm fearful of what that would mean for the next one and the next one. Um gosh, my heart hurts for you guys. Um, but I would struggle mightily with approving this for fear of what the next case would come to and what the next case would come to. Um, and it's, you know, and you got great people and David Kirby gave you estimates on what it would cost. Those are real numbers, if not higher now, from when you had that done before. Um there's a no win on this one uh for this these new Wsboro residents are coming from out of town and wanting to build the historic tree, but I I would struggle with supporting the tearing down a house in that in that

neighborhood. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think um we've all made a lot of observations. Are we prepared? Do we have are we prepared to have a motion one way or another? Sure. [Music]

It's a place where we have to when the lights go out around the flashlight. [Music] You go in across this climb up area [Music] about houses. No plan. I just don't I mean we do appcate the [Music] All right. Do we are we ready for a motion?

Um, I'll make the motion that we uh Let me put my glasses on here so I can read. that we approve the certificate of appropriateness to demolish the contributed structure at 737 Walnut Avenue. Do we have a second? I second. I just want to be clear that it is with the condition that was included in the packets about the Yes. building back per the Yes. design. Yeah. Yeah. The certificate as the motion is for the certificate as proposed with the restrictions placed on it by as suggested by staff. All right. Um, we have a motion. We have a seconded motion. All in favor? I. Any opposed? No.

No. All right. And I I heard I know we had one, two eyes, three eyes. Mr. Lee, how did you I? So, the motion is going to carry. Four to two. All right. Thank you very much. Um, next up we have public comment period for items not on the agenda. We do not have anyone signed up. Do not have anyone signed up. Excellent. Next up, we have matters from staff.

Um, I just want to remind everyone that we are um, diligently working to collect um, citizen input and feedback for our comprehensive plan planning process. Um, there are paper copies of the survey that are at the library. You can also come by 2:30 South Wayne at our offices to get paper copies if you need them. Um, there's the uh website, the QR code um gets you to the survey. I think we've had uh roughly over 300 responses to our survey and so we're really pushing that. So, I'd encourage you all as planning commissioners to share that wide and far with all of your networks and encourage people within your neighborhood um to fill out that survey. Um we have some brochures and some flyers and some different materials at our office. So, if you know of places where get a lot of high foot traffic and you'd like to take some of those pamphlets or some of those flyers, please come get them from us. Um, we're just really interested in continuing to get feedback from the public at this stage of the plan.

I think that's all I have.

All right. Commissioners, correspondence and communication. Um, so as I previously mentioned, we have had a um Nigel brought to my attention the my uh ignorance to um how and why historical districts function and how they impact architectural review and new development in our historical districts in the city. So, um, based on that and some other things that I've heard, I have asked staff to give us, uh, a relatively brief overview at our next regularly scheduled meeting, um, of how that all works, um, specifically with respect to um, architectural review and the standards that we have in historic districts and how both new development and renovations complies with those standards. Um and so they um helpfully have agreed to educate us on that issue. Um I don't know if there's any specific sort of within that framework any specific things that any of us would like to hear about. Um and if you don't can't think of them right now, maybe you can communicate them to staff a few not the night before the next meeting but sometime before the next meeting so they have plenty of time to prepare. Um, but I think it's an issue that either that certainly I know based on my conversation with Nigel that he that he's gotten some feedback from when it comes to certain historic areas of the city and whether it be in the comp plan or whether it's something we need to take action on. I do think it's something we at least need an education on. So, I've asked staff to do that.

Yeah. And I I we are happy to do that and we'll bring that back to you at your next meeting. Um, I also want to point out that any direction that we go in creating ordinances or possibly creating architectural review boards or any steps that we're going to take um really should be recommendations in our comp plan. And so in this gathering like input gathering phase from the public, like we really want to hear what does the public think about our historic districts? Like is that an issue that is important to our community? Um, so again, I would encourage you to have those people that have provided that feedback to you, you know, have their voices as part of the comp plan because all of that is what's going to guide these recommendations. But yes, we're happy to provide some general here are some levers and tools local governments have to kind of control, manage, create compatibility within their historic districts. And so we'll be able to talk a briefly about that, take a lot of questions also and and get you additional information if you need.

Yeah. And I think my my primary aim at least is for me is to be able to speak meaningfully about this as part of the comprehensive plan. But ultimately once we know what we don't know or I know what I don't know, then we can have a a more informed discussion about it. Y that sounds great. Thank you.

All right. Thank you. Anything else in terms of correspondence and communication? Now, I and this is just my personal opinion. I find it somewhat ironic that the Stra Tree District is considered historic since it's built on a Civil War battlefield, which is more historic. Um, and if y'all could include some of that research into y'all's report, I'd be curious to know about that more about it more than I already know that those houses were built on a battlefield where Kuster and his troops fought Confederates forces. Um, so you can see the irony in that. It's kind of like wilderness down in orange. um they've built over top of most of the battlefield down there that uh was fought on. Uh so we talk about maintaining history and maintaining historic uh preservations yet that's a prime example of wiping it off the face of the map. And that's just my personal opinion and and uh reflection.

Well, I'm grateful that Nigel and Will have asked for that information uh because I know a lot of my neighbors are really curious about architectural standards really throughout. So frankly, I'd be excited and interested to hear beyond the historical Yeah, I think that's capacity.

That's a good point because I think they can dovetail, but they can be very separate. Um, so we're happy to talk about ways um, you know, because they're similar levers and similar tools that could affectuate both. So, we'd be happy to kind of split them out a little bit or at least shed light on the ways that they could not only be helpful for historic districts, but you know, they're used for entrance corridors. Um, you a lot of localities, you know, create guidelines for what structures need to look like within certain corridors. Um, so we could talk about all of those things. Yeah. And maybe add beautifification to entry corridors as a topic.

Yeah. Yeah, you know I mean Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

I I would also suggest uh I I was saying it that y'all um speak with a University of Virginia. They are a world heritage site. They have an architectural review board for the village that works in conjunction with the city of Charlottesville's architectural review board. Now, if you really want to get into what a review board does and looks at, the structures over there are much older than what they are in the tree streets. So, it'll give you a good basis and some good knowledge.

I don't I think you should go to James Town. I need to go to the masters in history.

Yeah. October, can you get your MA get a PhD in history, masters in urban planning? Um, no, I I mean I so and not to be flip about your observation, I do want to make sure that we confine this. A lot of this is going to happen as part of the the comp plan. Um my intention was for us to sort of have an understanding the point my intention and the discussion that I had is to understand what historic districts we have in the city what restrictions those historic districts place on construction in this in those districts particularly with respect to architecture um and you know I don't know that we necessarily want to get into a spirited debate about the merits of particular historic districts or anything like that. Um where we're all going to have our own observations about particular historic districts. Um I think where the place to start is what are they and what do they do and then we can talk we can explore some of these issues.

Oh, I I agree with you, Will. You know, what are our historic districts and what do we currently have? Um and then compare it to what others have. Sure. Absolutely. Are are we headed in down on the right path? Absolutely. I don't have any further correspondence. All right. Do we have a motion? I move that we adjourn. Do we have a second? I'll second. All in favor? I. Any post? Hearing none. The motion carries. We are journed. Thank you. Thank you. Are you saying I'm being flippant? No.