Planning and Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

e I'm going to call this uh meeting of the Planning and Zoning commission to order uh second thing on our list here is roll call page would you call the role David Lon present John Meyer here Doug Ben scooter online uh Stephanie gar present Dave huser Kate Payne here Kathy olon here awesome so we have a quorum so moving to item C on our agenda uh approval for the agenda for tonight's meeting would ask for a motion appr all right it's been moved in second in all in favor say I hi any opposed hearing none Doug did I hear you I'm in okay it's just hard to say I couldn't hear you thanks all right so that motion passes uh moving on to item D or agenda it's from our last meeting which was November 6th of last year 7th I'm sorry of last year read that uh I would ask

for a motion for those agenda minutes as printed I so move second all right it's been moved and seconded all in favor say I I I hearing none opposed that motion also passes all right so item e of our agenda here we have two items so I just for those that may be new to the meeting or this forum so what I usually do is give just a very brief explanation so what we'll do is we'll open a public hearing for each of these separately so we'll open a public hearing for item one talk through it if anybody has any comments then we'll close that public hearing then we'll have our discussion and motions Etc and then we'll move to item two open a public hearing for that item discuss anything from anyone in the audience here and then we'll close that one um and then proceed on so just a little bit of explanation there so with that we'll go ahead and probably read the agenda memo first and then I'll open the public hearing okay so item one being an amendment to the uh Waverly area veterans post pagee can you walk us through that yep uh this amendment is to remove number three of that original special provisional use um that provision required the Waverly area veterans post to coordinate the bar lounge hours to not operate until 45 minutes after the normal School dismissal time since the school is no longer there they just want to remove that time restriction altogether um now there's nothing if this goes through there'd be no special hour wise it would be mandated by the state's hours okay all right so hearing that a little background with that I'll open the

public hearing for item one under Section e if anyone has any comments please approach the podium state your name and address and then you can speak to the commission here I do have a couple that came in if you want me to do it now or after yeah yeah we'll give this a shot first yeah Larry Hansen I live at 1010 Fourth Street Northwest right at the entrance to wavp okay I understand the reasoning they want to take it off the school is gone uh as a veteran myself I thinking is the Veterans should have a place to have their meetings and their do their things but it's getting to the point um I guess my other question i' I'd like to know for sure does this mean that the bar is going to be open all day long until 10:00 at night or 2:00 in the morning uh I guess that's my main question but what I'm concerned about I I bought the house in um 2010 and it was a residential district the old uh vet of foreign war building was still there when I bought the house I didn't think there would be that much traffic but now being it it's become a commercial business the traffic in the neighborhood is terrible and the way some people drive I do not understand why we do not have better enforcement of stop sign violations speed and

noise and it's getting to the point that I do not feel it should be in a residential district uh but I I'm all for the Veterans building but it's it's getting too commercialized I might as well move my house on Main Street and it's it's getting to be a problem and I'm very concerned about it thank you thank you Barb Waltman live at 421 10th Avenue Northwest uh I had a couple questions that I really didn't get answered to my understanding them but uh what would be the hours that they would be allowed to have the bar open in a residential area um that it doesn't make a difference residential versus commercial the state says they can start selling at I believe it's 6: a.m. Monday through Friday or Monday through Saturday 8:00 a.m. on Sunday and 8:00 a.m. on Sunday yep okay and then they can stay open until I'd heard uh 2 a.m. correct and that's not changing they can stay open till 2: a.m. now the way it is without this going through okay so 6:00 a.m. to 2: a.m. from uh Monday through Saturday and Sunday they can't open till 88 correct okay the other question I had was was the license does it say anything about serving or having beer Wine Liquor out in the

yard or do do they have to me remain in the building when they have it that's on their liquor license through the administration office again this does not change where they can have it um I'm I believe their existing license which is not changing allows inside or outside um but we'd have to confirm with um our Administration okay I talked to Carla guy and she she looked up the license and she couldn't see it on the license any place Jen Johnson in administration she's the one that handles those and she was out um those couple of days after you had called so you don't know which it would be that would make a difference in how I feel about it if they have to keep their liquor and beers Etc and wine in the building ience I believe their existing is in or out but you don't know for sure no cuz I don't handle those yeah okay thank you thank you good evening my name is Tim I'm not a resident of Wy I'm with the wavp okay I'm a representative from them do you have a last name couple questions that were you have a last name huh do you have a last name little okay um the hours as of now not changing we're going through all our paperwork and we're just updating everything since the school was closed down we're wanting it removed as far as our hours operations as of right now there's nothing in the works to change it okay um to my

understanding our liquor license covers the bottom part not the top so to answer that question otherwise besides that do you have any questions of me before I sit back down what do you mean by bottom part versus top part back by the the parking lot down by the bar so we have outside we have outside venues out there for weddings during the summer so if they want to have you know a champagne or something out there that's covered underneath our liquor license but as far as anything else that I'm aware of that's what the liquor license covers okay I wanted everybody else to talk first so I could to answer their questions after they asked them instead of me trying to hit all the questions do you all have any questions of me while I'm here thank you thank you for your time [Music] [Applause] than again just to clarify then they're saying that they can have uh beer Wine Liquor outside but only on the north side of the building not on the south side it's what we're hearing okay that's his understanding y but he should know right okay I'm going to assume that they can only have it on the north side of the [Applause] building okay we did receive three public comments that came into our office um the first was a Michael burler at 1117 5th Street Northwest um he spoke with Kate maguan about the request he's supportive of the amendment um Cara Vander wheel is at 1204 fth Street Northwest um I spoke with her on a

couple of different occasions um she is supportive of the amendment and then we have Matt Nelson 211 Deerfield Circle who discussed with Kate um and he is also supportive supportive of the change Amendment Y correct okay please like I said earlier I can understand why you want to take it off the records because the school is closed uh so that isn't my primary objection I the thing I'm concerned about is all the traffic that is being involved in that residential district it's anywhere from pontoon boats to semi trucks beer trucks uh catering Vehicles it is just not a residential district anymore and that's my main concern um but I'm I'm I'm all in support of the veterans but it's getting to the point where it's becoming a problem thank you [Music] Carl Benning uh 1310 D drive actually most of these concerns really have nothing to do with the amendment um the amendment is the only thing it changes was uh the ability for us at wavp to alter through

the hours right now quite frankly we don't have the manpower to do it so um that's that wasn't an alterior alterior motive of doing this uh we have no plans at the current time to expand our hours um the the liquor license we just got it back uh the renewal and my understanding is that it's for the property here it was for the property is what you said yeah okay yes there's nothing on there's no restrictions on the liquor license other than the address which is the property any other questions thank you thank you H buol uh uh 101 Flintstone Drive uh just a couple of brief questions number one I'd say uh I'd ask have you had calls we've been open since 2014 2016 I'm sorry and uh I'm not aware of any calls coming in if they are we would address them with any questions or comments uh talk to Larry at times uh just in terms of passing if he happens to be out in the yard and I I wasn't unaware of any concerns or questions regarding to traffic it's not a high volume Street there and yes we do have trucks we do have deliveries but they're not continuous all day generally in the morning uh seld them in the afternoon as far as I'm I'm aware of but uh I'd like to know if there are any calls concerns

questions that are problems have come up in all those years I'm not aware of any uh the second question I had is uh um forget what it was um oh the uh the hours generally we we we've looked at the hours and I just my own opinion and the three of us are on the board I've talked to two or three other members on the board and uh you know we're not going to be open you know when we don't have business and we're not going to have business if we open at 8:00 in the morning or noon or anything like that we we have a few people that show up 3 between 3:30 and 4:00 very few by 4:30 we begin to have a by 5 5 or 5:30 we'll usually have uh 6 to 10 people that are there that are regulars and older folks that that that's they look forward to that is a social event every afternoon uh not to go down there and drink after the night or anything like that and then if they have activities like a Tuesday night or Thursday night as he had a dinner dinner Tuesdays and Thursday nights uh then we'll have generally people there till about 8:00 the bar shuts down and there's a lot of evenings when when the bar when the numbers of people in the bar are gone it's down to one or two people in the bar and they just CL close the bar so there's a lot of nights they're closed between 800 and 8:30 so it's not like we have a huge amount of activity and and and very doubtful if we don't have the business we're not going to keep it open it costs us too much to open early and keep it late our cost every day is pretty expensive to open it so we open it it's costing us money every hour we're open so we don't have the business we're not going to be there so at this point it it wouldn't appear to me that we're going to be open very late at all we just don't have that kind of business so what kind of what what volume what kind of business do you expect as a result of changing this what

what what events would you be I I don't think we we haven't talked about that I don't think we're anticipating anything like that we're not going to be competing with the bars downtown to be open till 2 or 3 in the morning I mean that's not our goal at all I'm thinking of more in the afternoon when it would be I don't think we change anything in the afternoon I I think there'd be very little change there at all we might have two three four people that would come a little earlier but but if we you know if we opened earlier it wouldn't be it War warrant us to have it open mate why why the need to change it the questions come up from from a few of the people very few of the people that uh well the school is closed now why why why are you worried about the hours initially it was because the school the school was open and closed my understandings at 2:15 students were gone we opened at 3:30 and that was enough we didn't have people drinking before that uh they were just getting there without they weren't leaving uh having had anything to drink so even that was I didn't understand that exactly but but we uh at this point there there there's not really any reason us to open it any earlier than we have would you be willing to put a time in there when after you know before which you would not open I'm sorry can repeat that would would you be willing to put a time in here that is different from the 45 minutes after school is out but is there a time that you'd be willing to put in to say we wouldn't open the bar prior to that we haven't talked about that that's a board decision and you we have't we just thought well you know the reason it was 3:30 was because there was a school there and school was letting out there were still some school activities things like that and we thought well interest of safety and and we all concerned of the neighborhood because of that school setting uh they said at

3:30 I guess you know part of my question comes I know the way way veterans post has always been uh very cognizant of being a good good neighbor in a residential area and to that degree if it would you know be if there could be an acceptable time before which it would not open is that I I'm just asking if you would consider that well I think they do occasionally have private um use in the afternoon that's true yeah yeah it could be I mean we we have we have rented the hall out during the day for business activities and business events there was a time I'm not sure who meets there now I know rotary met there for a time they don't meet there anymore now but is the bar open during those time no no no right I personally had a private function there prior to 4:00 and and the bar was open there can be some there can be some private functions there yeah does the 3:30 or whatever time it is thing apply on the weekends too just weekday no I mean this restricts them for five days a week five days week I mean to me it's only adding a few hours for 5 days a week I and that's kind of how it came up is because there was new um one of them had come into my office and just asked for the original paperwork um just to learn some background information on the special provisional use um and looked at it and the hours came up it's like oh can we how do we remove that because the school's no longer there well was there any question the city council when they approved the liquor license was there anything that came up at the time no no okay me the city council approved it at that time for their liquor license so I guess if there wasn't anything that came up at that time then I don't see that being an issue now so I that'd be my thought you know so I so my question is what about during the summer when the school isn't

open does this does this restriction apply during the summer no and there hasn't been any problems during the summer of right okay I mean it's pretty clear School dis Missle time but there's no school there it's we still have it open before 3:30 it's year round 3:30 opening so well you know I guess I don't know if it happens but what if a what if five guys want to come in and play cards at 2 in the afternoon and have a beer you know I just don't see that that should be prohibited you know for 5 days a week I I mean I just think makes the life a lot simpler all the way around if it isn't there that's how I feel okay okay have any other questions okay thank you thank you August Waltman 421 10th Avenue Northwest I realize this resolution being considered is the third of three things that were in the provisional uh adopted by the city council the first one has to do with the neighbors and and addressing neighbors needs and concerns now that they we know that they're going to have more hours and so on uh it's frustrating that they were putting up trees and screens to cut down sound and and noise and so on and now just recently I don't know when these came out but there were four plantings directly west of the Albert res residence which is right across from the center that opens up that whole area more for them they were never contacted uh the trees and shrubs whatever they were there were at least four of them taken out I don't know why but that was part of the agreement that there would be a screening for the

Neighbors why did that go out I don't know and that's going to just make it more for them in terms of seeing and hearing and noise and so on so I'd like to know why those one out and if they're going to be put back in I don't understand Judy Hansen and we live right at the entrance of the post and I'm concerned about it's winter time now but summertime what kind of traffic are we going to have when the bars is going to be open all day long and is there going to be parties and stuff outside uh with more noise um we've we have the Harley guys 2030 at a time coming down there to have drinks we have uh these um I don't know what they call them where they go from Tavern to Tavern a bunch of vehicles or or Harley Riders um that's that's annoying when you have all that going by your house and and if they're going to be serving liquor during the week that Bunch could be on a vacation or something and we have to put up with it during the week uh not just on weekends I I'm just concerned about a lot of a lot of it's going to be outside and when you live right next door and you're sitting out on your deck and you got that going on it's distracting I guess that's all I got to say but it isn't changing during the weekend pardon it isn't changing anything that wasn't available during

the weekend so I mean you made the comment about the weekends no the weekend is yeah they do have the liquor during the week but I mean this could be going on during the week on vacations people have parties they can they can have showers they can have wedding things uh rehearsals all this kind of stuff during the week but those are mostly at night anyway right not necessarily if there's liquor during the day well they already made a statement they don't even have the help to do that so and if you're not if I guess when I heard him talking he said that well they're really not that busy during the mornings or early afternoons it's usually after 4:00 then why do you want it during the day why do you want the liquor license during the day if they're not that busy okay any other comments questions seeing none I'll close the public hearing and we'll move to commission discussion um here a little bit um who wants to begin any comments questions that anybody wants to talk through first I I guess I'll make a comment I I mean I think we have to focus on the request you know there's a lot of other things that have been brought up um but they don't apply to this really this particular issue um as far as traffic is concerned one thing that I'll plead guilty to is that um when I need to go to the east

side of the river I go by the veterans post now I live up in you know Hickory Hills jadestone area I mean I cut across there now which I wouldn't do if there was a bridge you know because it you know I can go through and and and save myself the trip down to Fifth Avenue and so I think that there's maybe something that it's a little unusual that hopefully will go away you know in a reasonably short period of time um I hope if I listen to the radio it's supposed to go away pretty quickly in next year but you know to me I I focus on this is only increasing or not it only has the potential to increase the operating hour really you know for 5 days a week during what would have been the school year and I just I think it makes life a whole lot simpler to get rid of it um so I you know I guess I would say I would support it I think the concerns are all make sense and I get it but I think we are hearing concerns that don't apply to the specific request and it's easy to get confused by that um I I also can understand where it doesn't make a lot of sense to have an amendment on their property that has nothing that doesn't apply anymore because there's no school I mean just from a technical point of view it makes sense to fix that um I mean I it it it fully understand that having the veterans post where it is is unusual situation in a residential neighborhood totally get that um you know the irony of it is that I'm glad to see that there's success there right

because you don't want it to be not successful either because that wouldn't be good either that would be worse and conceivably it wouldn't even be functioning at all and that's worth at least considering that it's been a positive thing for many people so my inclination is to to kind take the point of view that John's mentioned in that I don't see it having a big impact I think the impact of the things that you feel now are real I'm not denying that I just don't think this is going to change anything I'm kind of inclined to think that way as well I I I do however realize that there is a concern that the commercial side to that property is only expand standing uh in a residential area I have a sneaking suspicion that whatever is going to go into the the the property that was the school is going to in the end have a bigger impact than this clause and this amendment in the end and important to think about that actually for what I mean when you think of what happened there during the beginning in the end of the school day I think the new use is going to be a whole lot less that's probably true yeah because it won't be all at one time yeah you don't have a concentration of school buses and parents and all that kind of stuff you know that's that's going to disappear even if it's you know in I don't know how many apartments yeah that'll be better than it was as a school but I don't think that the change to this amendment will affect the neighborhood correct I I understand

dramatically I just don't see where it will yeah well I guess I would make a motion to Planning and Zoning commission recommend approval of the special provisional use Amendment for the Waverly area veterans Bros to remove section three of the original special use uh make that recommend ation to the board of adjustment second all right we have a motion that's been moved and seconded uh all in favor of passing that say I I I any opposed say no hearing none that motion does pass for this to go to the board of adjustment for the final recommendation our role in this and I was going to mention that just in passing here is to either recommend or not recommend we're not the deciding factor in Planning and Zoning that's Board of adjustment so there is an opportunity when that meeting does come up uh believe it's the coming Monday it's Monday Monday it's not a public hearing but they may be willing to listen to comments okay so yeah or it's not a public hearing not it is public meeting not a public hearing at the meeting right okay I think in general they're pretty accommodating for feedback so yep uh I do want to thank everyone for your comments tonight moving to item two under Section e there's a special provisional use Amendment for Waverly sh Rock schools Paige could you help us with that memo yeah um this request is to amend their special provisional use at

North Ridge Elementary to add additional parking and queuing we all know um there's been a little challenge with the mostly pickup times I believe with cars um lining back onto Horton Road so by expanding the north parking lot and the south parking lot and we'll add additional queuing spots to hopefully um alleviate some of the issues they've been having and engage with Lar is here um to help address questions as they come up okay so thank you for that um I just want to make note I think you'd like to yeah I'm going to abuse myself from this conversation I don't have anything to do with this particular project but just for transparency it makes sense because I was involved originally to just step back all right it's fine I think you can keep an open mind but I respect that decision as well so with that uh I'll go ahead and open the public hearing for item two under Section e if there's anyone who would like to speak again same rules to state your name address and you can address the commission as a whole I do have one public comment that was received y um excuse me Jim T um lives at 1415 Horton Road but he owns also that field the farm field diagonally across from the school he spoke with Kate mlan about this amendment request his main concern was drainage going um onto his property um we assured him that we are working with Larson engineering to um make sure all drainage plans are approved by City specs and then he felt comfortable um with the amendment request okay

I guess I will I will speak cuz I'm here um we uh just today addressed uh the city's consultant uh review comments in regards to the storm water um if you've been out there there's quite a large Basin on the West Side um that was sized to meet the city's uh chapter 9 storm water requirements so the 100-year uh post-development matching the 5-year pre-development um and that was uh the pre-development was considered a meadow field of a much lower curve number um than concrete uh so we we have not proposed any changes to the Basin because the Basin um is of sufficient size to handle this and still stay below the initial requirement um if there's any other question regarding any of the rest of it I would be happy to answer any questions have you had that conversation with Jim or Mr T I have not I have not received that question from him um but we did provide a drainage report um to Planning and Zoning um we can make it available to him if he would like um we can also have calls with him I think transparency and full disclosure just so he understands so he doesn't come back later and say nobody talked to me about it so I would MH suggest that and we provided him with the plants okay but I mean sometimes not only you but the schools you I I don't just transparency is best you know mhm um I haven't looked at it in a while cuz I just I update my model but I believe it's only an eight or a 10 in pipe that leaves that pond um and the pipe that it crosses through is a 48 in

so and we are below five CFS which is I've had someone describe it as five basketballs per second before okay to put it in a perspective yeah I'm not sure it's changing any area it's just making more of it impervious but you know it doesn't really change much and I think that's kind of all he wanted to make sure was that it's not too big of a um difference that would be changing you know I did ask him a question before the meeting um I wasn't on Planning and Zoning when they did the first time around but when I saw this as an interested citizen I said whoa there's not enough parking on this place and now when you're increasing it from basically 81 spaces to 184 it kind of reinforces I said you know man you know so you're adding over a 100 parking spaces and I my question to him was you know what analysis have you done to make sure this is enough um you know I because adding more than this would be kind of tough I mean there'd be really some big changes and I guess uh I don't know if he he said that he got that number from the school so you know I think this should certainly make things a lot better City staff had discussions with the school district as well um and they felt it it'll be better than what it was previously will it 100% fix it pro maybe not um but it'll get a lot more of the vehicles off of the neigh from a taxpayer standpoint there's a frustration to me that you know busing is provided for all of those kids yeah why do we have so many property or so many parents queuing up

to do this I mean we're paying for the busing and now we're paying for parking lot addition you know when they have an alternative available that's my kind of my editorial comment but like the first day of school when traffic was backed up cleared to Waverly utilities yeah I mean it's nice to get the first day picture but it's it's improved a bit but it's still a challenge so um and I don't know if we would know the answer to this question but is is the school um at capacity for students I don't know I don't I don't think so I don't think so because because K is recusing herself I can answer that question there's um there are two basically I don't know that I would call them rooms there's two like little blocks at the northeast corner um there's like uh so where the playground is and then so there's a there's a little bit of space you see where that sidewalk is on the right side where there's uh further down and right a little bit more right right there and that open space is room for an addition which is why the sidewalk is set back not that it wouldn't be replaced anyways but um so they have a little bit of room I don't recall how many um classrooms that provides sorry Kate I don't remember one she recused but it's one um so yeah where where these numbers came from on the Improvement is um you know typically with schools is you would size them on a combination of how many students or staff drive to school and then um you would also size it based on your Auditorium use um they're usually not compounding they're they're offset right because you kids go to school then you have an event afterwards um and usually what drives that is the um

Auditorium and assembly space this doesn't have that so because of that reason we relied on school officials to provide us how many staff they thought they would have and then how many guest parking stalls they wanted um and obviously as we're finding that may have been off a little bit on that um it was a group decision there was a lot of people involved especially a lot of school officials but um in providing this they have gone out there and count it on multiple occasions they find that about 90 people um Q uh Slash drop off you know sometimes they're staggered um in doing so on the plans we provided that about 994 stalls can be allocated easily for um parent parking so they have Park go get their kid come out it kind of works with their setup anyways so because they have like tags or something that provide to prove that they're allowed to pick up the child so so that's kind of what drives uh drove this and then we wanted to add parking stalls easily in the most efficient way possible um so you know as you guys stated adding more wood be a bit of a challenge and this was just kind of the nice mix of what was economically possible um along with what fit so yeah I think my concerns a little bit to John's Point too it's it's it's not so much the mode that people choose it's you know where we are um to a a database number if that makes sense instead of a you know it was a 50° day and some kids did ride the bus or ride with or carped you know I'd like to better understand that like this is the maximum capacity that could fit in the space which sounds like maybe not maximum but it's a balance between the space available and the optimization of that space for

parking um you know the special provisional uses are a complicated arrangement to have to come to this commission and then go to board of adjustment uh I'm just trying to better understand um if the request here meets not the not only the current need but the full capacity need and and maybe we don't know that fully yet it sounds like it's a a calculated number or estimated number based on it makes a lot more sense now I mean you've got when they get done they'll have 62 spaces on the Northerly side of the school and 122 on the southernly side but if you take the extreme spaces and make staff Park in those you've got you know you you're you're going to have uh 59 and 45 spaces for parents to store up and queue in I you know I to use them I you know I think I I think you got a much you know I think it's going to work it should yeah I guess you know full capacity probably not I mean if you add that many more in but sometime down the road we'll have a road that goes further along too that maybe there's an opportunity to bring another Drive off of uh North Ridge Parkway well and I'm not counting the queuing space around it that they can do for the short term so down the road if the school decided they needed an auditorium that there is no space at Northridge for that because I I I can see how the auditorium impacts sure uh parking but is there but like you said those are not additive they it's one or the other when they're in use you you don't use the auditorium in the you know

you just the auditorium might be full of students but if it's an extra activity that's after hours you know so and our zoning ordinance treats them differently too you know so from a maybe on that point I was thinking so is there a a zoning or uh factor for number of spaces for a school schools are typically based on the auditorium size on the auditorium size so that is it's so many seat so many seats per parking space yeah yeah they way over that you guys recall what your Auditorium factor is is it one per four yeah that's I that's what I wanted to say but okay um I I'm not the architect but I I don't imagine there's a whole lot of space for an auditorium that would um if you took 183 * 4 I don't know that that facility could handle that size of an auditorium kind of working backwards on it um there have so there's um I hate to be the future discussion guy um but as it pertains to the request right now I don't think there's any future um needs that pertain to what request is being uh submitted today uh there have been discussions about adding a second um connection to Northridge uh the reason that that has kind of stalled is expense because it's quite a wide roadway um and it has a middle turn lane and then you know working with um just the other Road Connections that may someday go in and it was just not something that um they really wanted to look into at this time okay all right anything

else you would want to address if if some if uh I forget last name was T is he related to the nursery owner or is it spelled different used to be um if if they would like us to reach out um we can reach out to him um and see if he wants your guys' contact information I can provide it to him okay that's all I had thank you all right thank you thanks cage all right so any other public comments for this item seeing none I'll close the public hearing for this item and move to commission discussion if there is any more not really seeing any I would ask for a motion if the commission I move the Planning and Zoning commission recommend approval of the special provisional use Amendment for w sh Community School District to amend their existing special provisional use to the board of I second that motion all right we have a motion that's been moved and seconded all in favor say I I any oppos same sign hearing none that motion passes as well so I I just have a curiosity question is there a parking issue at the other school there's not as many kids there no okay so the queuing is not has not been a problem okay all right so we're now in section F regular business we have a plat survey

for parcel xx and parcel YY Paige if you would help us with that agenda M yeah so this originally came out because of two reasons the first is um CW would like to widen their driveway but they're already at um both property lines um and then t nursery would like to add another building but it would have been crossing over property lines so with this plat of survey parcel XX will then get sold to croll they'll probably be back next month with the plat survey combining XX with their um main portion of their lot to expand the driveway um and then if parcel y y gets approved that's going to allow te Nursery to um build to the east side of the property and meet set backs okay what was staff comments staff wasn't supportive of it that staff supportive of it there wasn't too many of them um we've seen the need for croll to get the addictional space for their big trucks in and out of that driveway um and te Nursery same thing we're happy that their businesses continue to expand what's taking C so long to what's that what's taking C I mean I just yeah I I just I just feel like there's going to be some kid that is going to get hit by one of those trucks you know going in and out of there so I'm not sure what is I want to get this enroll and I I mean someone shared with me that they're waiting for basically electrical controls oh that's been a hold up for quite a while I know they received one of the items they needed but they might still be waiting for the other well that's good to hear I me unless you want

to start making chips in your backyard but I mean it's just it's always bothering me with all the you know traffic that you know the electrical components were a big play in the delay it really be nice to get them out of the neighborhood where they're around yeah yeah yes I just I fully agree U the planning in zoning commission recommend approval of the pla of survey for parcel xx and parcel YY located at 2419 East breamer Avenue Waverly Iowa to city council second all right we have a motion that's been moved and seconded all in favor say I I I any oppos same sign hearing none that motion passes as well all right item two in regular business section F here is uh an amendment of yeah okay sorry uh amendment of section 100.4 point6 of city code for accessory building and Breezeway requirements yeah if you'd help us with that agenda memo so we originally brought up the idea of the swimming pools last fall and then we were off for a couple months we didn't have meetings I didn't want to bring this back just for um one of those but we've got people having conversations again wanting to look at installing swimming pools um a couple of them are at their square footage they've got bigger Lots though um they'd easily meet setbacks I said that I'm bringing this actually code change up to you guys tonight and then it'll go to council before it becames official uh but because I was look we were looking at adding in there the thought as a commission was we thought it made most sense to add it there under that accessory structure kind of as an

exception to that um square footage sides so since I was already going through that section Kate and I decided to um make sure if there's any other changes um basically building from the word structure or from the word building to change it to structure structure is what is in our definition um you can have floating Decks that are considered accessory structures um counted against this section so I didn't want it just to say building I wanted to make sure that it was um clear included all the others yeah I agree with the wording for the most part um I did have a couple questions so maybe I'll kick it off here yeah um so we really don't make a distinction in this uh proposal against hared pools versus softsided pools does from the code interpretation would that be the same I'm and to explain it more I'm thinking a Seasonal Pool versus a year round pool you mean an above ground or a newr no above ground even above ground hard sided stay year round a lot of times versus the softsided so I know we had discussions about that and we never really set on a point one way or another however building code if you look at the chapter 90 it says any does it say any prefabricated pool that's more than 2 ft deep or more than 5,000 gallons or something like that that um so if we make it fall towards those lines that requires a permit that requires a permit it doesn't necessarily that's true fit accessory structure that's true in my mind because yeah if you have a shed that doesn't need a building permit we do a plot plan but you're still limited by these so most

pools though are going to be above 2T deep I mean the only pool that I see doesn't apply to this is the inflatable play pool Little Kitty pools you know the kitty pool that you know holds 150 200 gallons you know right well then maybe maybe I'll just get to where I I feel the conflict's going to be is so if you have a a Seasonal Pool right a softsided Seasonal Pool you're required to put a fence but the pool may come down at the end of the season yeah I don't so yeah do we want to change something that so that was because the location might change or they might not have one the next year right and it doesn't it just says around the perimeter of the pool right so it doesn't necessarily give a setback or size change but I guess doing my walking inventories where I've seen those kinds of things the fence is there permanently they fence their yard and they got a cool in the backyard you know so I'm not sure taking down and putting up a fence is probably not an issue well I'm curious is that a softsided pool or a hard-sided pool so are you looking at the different yes both difference between a personal property pool meaning it goes up in June comes down in September kind of thing versus permanent structure yeah so if somebody wants to put a a what I'm calling a softsided pool for a season you know the requirement is building permit the requirement is going to be you know you have to have a fence yard you're got to have enough square footage for it which I I understand the code you know I feel this isn't specific enough to address the two different types so I would Advocate I'm not suggesting what the language should be

necessarily yet but I would Advocate that we make a distinction somehow between a year- round pool and a seasonal pool or a uh you know just for the requirements um yeah I have seen what you're what I know what I think you're defining as a Seasonal Pool and they stay there forever well they built the deck around um and well or not and they just they don't take them down even though they're probably intended to come down you know they're they're even some of them aren't even a filtered pool you know and so that's what yeah I mean we would have to figure out out how we separate the two um because even some of those seasonal pools get to be pretty big and deep yeah um and those what's the point of having the fence is it for safety to keep other potentially neighborhood kids out if so then we probably want it on some around some of those seasonal pools but I understand that well the pool goes down now what and then is this now forcing that every I think um Kate you mentioned the one meeting we're getting so many fences up is this then encouraging everybody to put up a fence rather than being those friendly Neighbors which I don't know right do we want to see a lot more fences go up because of swimming pools yeah so I I certainly I feel both meet the definition of a pool right and they trigger the building permit and the off you know setback discussions and it's truly an accessory structure in my mind um however the the fencing requirement because of that I think impacts if it's a seasonal pool or a non-seasonal pool um and I know something else while we're on that topic that we we talked about a little bit the last time we discussed pools was um you know as far as drainage

of pools and filling of pools with air gaps versus hole just a hose in the water I don't know if there was any other staff discussion on that or if that falls into a different section like building code for example that in plumbing code y yeah building Plumbing mechanical right they would handle all those sides of it just for curiosity sake did we see an increase in pools and we didn't have a city pool this year or you know will that some of that go away I definitely got more calls for it this year or in 2024 than I had the year before I've only been here for in this position for two but yeah I mean not that it makes a big difference but I wonder if all of a sudden it'll change after the I think it is driving it a bit especially with one more year without a pool okay so the final note that I took it was um you know we say a fence is a is that a defined structure so you know does that mean you can have a wire fence you can have a board fence you can have I I I didn't get time to go look through the city code specifically if it defines different types we don't Define a type of fences um you can have but I would imagine yes a chain link would still be fine unless we want to specify it as to something else then come can somebody put up a temporary fence yeah this is kind of snow fence I mean is that I thought I'm just curious if that's specific enough simp yeah you know what what defines a fence is I mean we have a fence in town that has some post with chicken wire M I they' have to do a couple High to get 5 foot but cuz

there's a fencing permit requirement through the city yeah that's more just to make sure it's on property lines and outside of easements um we have them telling us what kind it is um but we don't have requirements on that kind might get some complaint later about if you're talking about snow fence one of those orange snow fences the neighbors might start complaining about they will look wowy yeah so I I was just trying to maybe head some of that off while this was still in Redline form um absolutely not to over complicate the topic so so my request I guess would be just some sort of clarity around type of pool seasonal or year round I don't know is there a permit for a limited use from this dat to this dat it just if you have a Seasonal Pool and you take it down and put it back up the next year to get a different permit every year we talked about that at the last meeting and we said I I had to look back to see what we said the thought was no if it goes in the same location um but I don't know you know it's not one that same location but it's five square feet bigger you know yeah again we're not counting this against square footage for accessory structure but right I had another question about the language in the swimming pool yeah text that says any decking not attached to the primary structure around the pool will count against the accessory structure area limitations and that seems really open-ended and vague to me about what is decking what is not decking is that the concrete or is it just if it's a raised deck off the floor off the off the grade see yeah is it wood I mean is it assume that it's a wood you know like a ra so

maybe any raised decking maybe that would be a better yeah because yes it's basically a free standing or floating debt connected to the detach pool but it's just not connected to your house why is that considered accessory structure I think is part of my question too if we don't want that to be counted against we don't have to um I mean it just seems like if you're going to put a hard surface of deck around a pool um it really doesn't seem like a structure in the same way that a a building is attached to the pool deck area I don't know it just seems I I mean I'm just speaking from the one that I see when I'm on my back back porch is you know the pool is 5T deep and it's it's it's actually a pliable side but it's got a steel frame around it struts and all that kind of stuff and he actually built a patio five steps up or six steps up and it's a deck that he can that they can uh put a half a dozen chairs on and so on with a ladder and all that kind of thing to me that's a definitely a structure okay that you're right that is I have to admit I was imagining you know 6 in off the ground no top level this thing is 5T up so you can go up the steps and you can actually some even having a slide you ground pool feel like an INR pool yeah yeah well I've seen ones were I don't know if I've seen it around here but I've seen other places where they build the fence around the decking and they have a five or six foot fence all the way clear around and they have a door when they get to your steps or from the their own patio and that's their fence that they call yeah kind of like down south where they all have like this

guy's got a six foot fence around his whole backyard so that mean he satisfies that and he had to put a fence uh had to put a gate on the steps because his dogs kept going up and a way to solve that so you know I think uh I think it's all good discussion that you know know what to to kind of do the flip side so if somebody were to uh install an inground pool the way this code reads it doesn't count against their square footage correct correct and neither does the concrete pad around it correct correct and that wouldn't anyway no it's just wellu you can pave your backyard if you want to yeah you well perous coverage yeah so so I'm just asking so does that is that a change from The Way It Was Written for pools like if they were counting as an accessory structure so they did subtract from that yes square footage right now you could have the pool in ground and it wouldn't subtract from your square footage got it I just is that you can concrete your yard but you can't concrete your whole front yard through that before so I think I think part of the re reason for the permit for the whole thing is because a structure being built above ground is conceivably a risk of falling and hurting somebody there's always a life safety kind of attachment to the whole story well when it's potentially offensive to a neighbor potentially yeah an inground pool although could be cons offensive to a neighbor but it's not likely that the pool structure itself will fall down and hurt somebody now somebody fall into the pool and be hurt it's visually

obstructing a view that's true yeah he's going to make sure you invite that neighbor while weing then they won't complain exactly all right but yes Dave if you if we want to change a little bit more to make sure this is more for permanent pools versus not um we can I from couple of the codes I looked at there wasn't really very clear distinction so I would want some dire of what way to go um I mean the way I would view it is anything that's over a certain depth and size if it's smaller than that maybe we don't want to mess with it you know well I think a lot of those are well yeah it depends where you establish that yeah I know and what's what's reasonable I don't know do you go by diameter no it's usually by gallons and and depth is what I think all the stuff that she handed out last time I just was wondering if that would be you know I know the gallons but yeah well a lot of the building code stuff you know you don't have to have a fence or a guard rail or anything unless you're over 30 in above grade yeah yeah I mean personally think that's high even your deck on the back of your house if it's over that you got have a right so maybe there's something in there the thinking about this it's driven by that other part of the code that puts 30 in as a baseline um so I know again it goes back to being the permit thing but the 5,000g pool I was looking at the diameter is 15 typically 15 ft in diameter so is it like that's as big as this yeah I mean that's big do we want smaller ones to have to have it is it um above four

feet deep and above 10 foot diameter or something I don't know where's our line that I think the depth needs to be less a couple feet is so then you get those blowup pools yeah and they're less than two feet typically yeah yeah so you know again I think maybe we should continue to discuss around that definition right what what defines a pool um and then the requirement of the fence for the Seasonal Pool I struggle with a little bit maybe it's just me but I feel like that's um well I think I for a it probably doesn't make a difference whether it's a seasonal or non-seasonal pool for swimming pools number a that's just saying you can you're an exception to the size so I think that's probably okay right but it's the question of B of what size or style of pool for fencing would be required yeah what do insurance policies require yeah I've been wondering like you know if you have a big lot and your perimeter of the lot is got a fence on it but not the actual pool within the giant lot is it serving the purpose that the fence is intended to protect people from well it's not keeping Susie from running out of the side it's not right I've seen had many pool ordinances I visited with my neighbor and he said as long as he had a tight fence around his backyard and the pool was in it that's all his insurance man required but you couldn't the gate

had to be latched from the inside you couldn't be outside and open the gate M he said that was very that was specific you know so I mean because I think insurance is more wor worried about other people coming in to it rather than your own family that's coming from so he mowed his law and he had to go through the house unlock the gate and then he could put his lawnmower in the backyard get to the backyard to home but that's what he told me I I didn't talk to my insurance guy I just talk to him and and and I kind of make sense yeah yeah absolutely I'll bet in parts of the country that it's different than that bet in places where there are a lot of pools that that fence has to be around the pool not around not around the yard well that's why yeah thinking down south where they even have that top um fencing over the pools that's probably a requirement for all of those it's right around the pool and above it let's keep the Sal maners out of the yes it's it's a animal barrier the birds out yeah Birds then do have a fence around their whole property what did you say alligators I don't think alligator would they would keep an alligator so do you have enough direction do we need to narrow this a little bit more I think it needs to be narrowed more yeah because I don't I still don't think that there's a consensus of when a fent should be [Music] required I agree I mean I think if you're going to put up a small pool you know it's up there for two months pretty offive up seems like a big ass yes yeah where does small become biger I don't know ask question conceptually I or is it the difference if it's um pool that has a frame versus just a complete blowup pool yeah um I know enough about the different kinds of pools out there I got to say it's not in my

radar yeah I think yeah I don't know blow up versus a pre-fabricated pool I guess I think I'm struggling a little bit with the uh what the language should be right you know at this particular moment um but yeah my my my problem is mainly with b as you said so number three B um so we'll see if we can do maybe a little bit of research on pool types different kinds of Po pool kind of averages um we can pull a couple other um codes again to see um if we find anything else and then maybe I'll email you guys out what we find to see if we can get a draft for next month well and I and maybe just to summarize it I mean you know maybe it's not a size based maybe it's a Time based right if it's if it's erected for 12 months or whatever pick a duration right if it's less than six months if it's greater than eight months I don't know what that right narrowing is but if it's if it's less than a year it doesn't require a fence right that way you're covered with an ingr pool I think you got to throw some depth in there I see I I do think we need some depth yeah okay like physical dep I mean neighbor kids running around so that they don't have a mishap I mean you can drown in two two foot or you can it's harder absolutely yeah little kid could easily that's why I was curious what insurance you know where their lot where their limits are yeah maybe contact in um what do you call the they have the insurance division state of Iowa and see

what the language CU everybody's using the same language I'm sure uh for Iowa and see what they're language is I'm just a thought to see what they how they deal with it well that's a good non how do I want to say that impartial impartial it's all inclusive yeah can do that okay so that cleared it up a little bit um I I still like the time based uh approach but I'm certainly open to depth additions as well which we really don't have other than the definition of a pool right that triggers the building permit yeah I just looked back at that um building code it's it is considered pre-fabricated pool as well so it looks like those are the ones that actually have the um it can be soft interior but it has the metal support support yeah yeah that's considered what a prefabricated okay okay any other discussion on this so we'll we'll do it again I I suppose my one question with the time frame is if someone says we're just going to put this up for the summer so they don't put up a fence and then they decide that gosh this is so much fun we want to keep it at what point does it does the time change I mean are you saying like they've got three months to put their fence up um those are kind of some questions that come to my mind when talk about the time limitation and how to

enforce it yeah you have a policing issue because anything in zoning I think if it's not being followed then it's like I think you can find them like is it like $100 a day or a mpal infraction so it's then is that would we actually take that route is that what we would do to enforce it is everybody pretty good about contacting about the permit for pools yeah we've got a handful of people questioning about pools yeah a lot of times it's starts from Plumbing or mechanical um or we see the one calls that they're pulling in um okay see so Kate's proactive okay all right so we'll revisit that topic we won't take any action on that short of our discussion bring it back next time all right item G old business any no all right item H nope no updates from staff either no item I commission updates any go back to staff updates um if you guys want to a study session this month is the housing needs analysis um if you guys want to hear the presentation um it'll be at the stud session when is that the last Monday 208 no yeah 24th 24th I remember it's 2 yeah I I hope I'm not the only one but I did get it I asked her for a paper copy because I hate writing it online and I went through it last weekend I was so bored but um it's interesting um some of their analysis to me is a

real stretch of how they come up and they say we need this many you know affordable units you know and the 200 or 350 hovering around 350 how that analysis and I'm very curious how they present that uh some of the graphics um I'm not sure they really even looked at the community when they made them up particularly the one that it says you know this is single family housing and they have parts of the WB campus the the um um tennis courts the ball diamonds you know that they say these are available for development but then the list of lots for sale you know they is much much more accurate so there's some things like that that AR aren't big deals but um I would urge you to if you read the first executive summary and the last chapter everything in between is kind of how they came up with some of together for everybody well I mean it it goes through the analysis but some of that analysis is is uh to me is a little bit uh nebulous let's put it that way what drove this staff what drove it another Anis we just had one 5 years ago that was just an update yeah that's I know but what drove it though um because of the years so our full last full one would have been 10 years ago and then we did the update for these Workforce housing tax credits they want to see you at least an update every five years um in order to get the points for those and there's a development or two that they say that are pending that we have

really not seen and I'm not sure they're going to be doable but that's kind of interesting too okay anything else that's it all commission updates I don't have anything any others last more I apologize for my delinquency here I was the ice held me back from getting to some appointments in Western Iowa I was two hours behind with my appointments so it's I apologize no we we we started without you but knew you were coming so I I got your voicemail I just I didn't want to call you back when you're driving back but yeah well I'll always get emails and voicemails on my phone so yeah no we just we knew we had enough but we knew we were can well I still I disrupted a little bit the only reason I asked about that what drives this see I I have a whole different opinion on the development they'll come if the jobs are there and I and I I think C Falls made the same mistake years ago they kind of went down this route and then they instead of concentrating on housing they turned around and concentrated on bringing in work the thing that caught my eye on that is that they're saying that there's 4,500 people that are driving into Waverly to work how do we you know and and they're saying that most of those people are in the in the moderate income so we need to have housing to get them to move to town and you know there's only 1,500 people leaving and 4,500 that are coming in and the rest of them are are here

so that's kind of the interesting statistic to me no nobody wants to build houses where they don't make as much money on in these small ones I be curious I think it should contact Webster City I go buy that quite often probably once or twice a week and so the thing about that if you look out there along the highway 20 they they are building some what I would call moderate to lower they're not real big houses and so I would contact them to see what you know what they're doing to bring those uh where was that I'm sorry Webster City were those some of those um but they're not not the prison industry houses but well these are these are stick built right on site they are okay I watch them like I said I go by there one to two times a week and uh and uh so it's it's an interesting house it's a two-car garage and it's like a one and 1 half story and uh so I'm pretty sure they're load to moderate housing and and I'm guessing somehow because it sits right out there along the uh Highway 20 with all the traffic is there they were hard to sell you know for people to put and so I I think that you know be interesting to find out what they did to get those going yeah is that a subsidized type thing I don't know I just see them being built and there's been you know five or six of them uh recently over the last 6 months what your describing kind of fits into that yeah I mean I don't know for sure but I but that's why I was say maybe contact the city over there to find out what they were doing to to uh get those going because I I'm pretty sure they are on the north side of the highway or South side north side right on the North side I think Kate

found it on the Google at least that can pull up the area yeah but I just it's just it's set nothing being developed in there for so many years and now they're they're building these houses and uh I just think I'm pretty sure they're more of a load of moderate housing so and maybe there's you know there's you know the smaller communities are able to get these grants if you take a look at a lot of smaller communities across the state that they are um but labor Le is not is too big um but but it'd be interesting to find out you you know what uh you know what triggered that because it's set empty for many years there that nothing was getting developed there and then all of a sudden now they're building these um so be interesting to see I don't know what they're going for but I I'm sure they are okay um 350 down on that new kind of development right on the highway but see they may be I don't know if they are getting a grant you know like some of I don't know what the population we your city is but what like 40 four to 5,000 they're guessing most of those communities aren't getting grants but they're giving some humongous tax credits yeah you know but there there is some program out there because I know a lot of small under 10,000 they're they're eligible for some other things yeah we'll take a look but those are is that what you're finding what those are is that what they are 350 350 one's right along the highway so that's that's actually that's the C for the mod they're looking 250 to 350 is where they I can't understand these numbers myself so that's probably

not less than I notic I've seen a lot of smaller communities out there that are putting in development that they're getting grants to do so 2 and a half% interest well of that report they have some techniques that they're suggesting I'm not sure it'll it's said 10 I two and a half for and then she sced away try to just drive by that thing so many times just start watching hous City Provide eom devel support January 2st are we ready for a Jour that was just January yep no let's you don't like just chatting anyway yeah I would ask for that I moved it we adjourn oh well I'll suck in that all right we are adjourned sobody e