Historic and Architectural Preservation Board - Regular Meeting

All right, we'll call to order the July 9th meeting of the Historic and Architectural Review Board. We'll have a roll call attendance, please.

Chair Beebe?

Here.

Ms. Trammell? Present. Ms. Moore? Present. Mr. Stuckety? Here. Mr. Watkins? Here. Mr. Green? And Mr. Barrick?

Here.

All right, very good. All right, before you, we have the approval of the minutes for June 11th, 2026. Are there any revisions or adjustments or additions? If not, I will entertain a motion.

I move to approve the minutes.

I'll second.

I'll second. All right, Greg seconds it. All in favor? Aye. Opposed? All right, the minutes pass. Is there any general audience participation today?

No, there's not.

Thank you, Amanda. All right, we'll go ahead and move into new business. We have a pre-application for 401 Nassau Street South. Our staff member is Nicole Tremblay, senior planner, and the applicant is Jordan Allison. Good morning, Ms. Tremblay. Good morning.

good morning all right so we've got a pre-application meeting here um you guys actually saw this property not in its current state but in its state before it was most recently painted um just during discussion at i believe our last meeting but they have come forward with a proposal They do not have full plans yet. So you've got kind of a rough sketch to look at, but this will be more of a discussion. They would like to get a lot of feedback from you all. So this is 401 Nassau Street, and it's not a 20s house, but they're kind of moving towards the VHP style. So that's part of why they need your feedback.

Okay.

We haven't really reviewed this for code compliance because there's not much to review to the code yet. Like I said, more of a discussion for you all and for the applicant to get on the right track.

Right.

So if you have any questions right now, I'll answer them, but I think probably we'll just turn it over to the applicant and let you guys discuss.

Is this a corner property?

It is, yes.

Yeah, at 401, is that, okay. It's the corner. Yes, it's, yeah, Turin.

Corner of Nassau and Turin. Correct. Okay, so we got visibility on two sides. That's correct. So it actually faces the community center. If you remember where this is, it's right on the corner by Blalock Park.

Yeah.

It faces the community center on Turin and then on Nassau to the west. So all right. Great. Well, thank you. Any questions for Ms. Tremblay? All right. Thank you. All right. Then the applicant can give us an idea of what they're thinking about. Good morning, good morning.

Must be Jordan, yes, I'm Jordan. I see you thanks for taking your time. So. So these are the first pass drawings that we're going with the top elevation here is going to be facing turn. The can you see my cursor here, yes. So this section here is existing. and then this left side will be what we'll be adding on. The intent is currently the front door is facing Nassau and we'll be shifting that to be, this will now be the front door, which will be facing Turin, facing the community center that you mentioned earlier. And just trying to get guidance on what, do we need to follow all guidelines how exactly does it work with an existing structure? Um, like specifically I read through the code, the, um, we can't have a garage face in the road. Like it has to be behind the, um, the building in this situation with it already being existing. Would that be something that we could keep in place and not have to adjust an existing structure? Okay.

I mean, we can get to these things. Um, First of all, thanks for coming in and showing us what you plan to do. Is this something that you own or you're thinking about purchasing? I'm just curious. This will be a personal family residence.

My wife, I've got two kids, will be moving here. My wife went to Venice Eye, Venice Middle, so we're excited to get the kids here and go to the same places. Yeah, it'll be a personal residence, not a spec. Existing one story, and then it's in a flood zone X, or not a flood zone, it's in zone X. Not a flood zone. Yeah. Right. Okay.

And is the lower, the west elevation is fairly current for, it's a little different than what exists now, but it's. I don't know if we have a photograph of what it looks like pretty close to that. Right.

So currently this is the current elevation off of Nassau.

Right.

So overall we're going to keep that elevation, keep the door. A big question was if we could leave the garage. I think I'd read with existing elevations, you could change up to three things and not have to and kind of fall under that guideline with the historical rules. So I was curious what exactly would qualify as three things. Meaning if we leave it as is kind of what would we what are the what qualifies as three items that fall within that category? But that would be a great help if we could keep that elevation and not have to adjust the garage. And then another big question with our elevation that faces Turin does that fit the expectation of following kind of the Nolan era style? And is that, like do you see that as okay, that looks like close enough to the neighborhood style that we do need to go through the historical review process? Right.

Well, first of all, I noticed you have drawings yes documenting the existing House. So as that as you have easier drawings or there's someone else know we had a loser we had a drafting company complete as built to the existing structure. OK yeah, all right and then the so this is your concept on top of that correct so we met with Trump architecture.

good friends of ours, and she put together what Nicole had shown you earlier. That was our first pass at trying to work with the property. They did do a review of the easements and zoning, and we tried to, as best we could, match and follow the historical guidelines, having the different facades, having the 412 pitch, 612 pitch on the roof. The intent is to use a barrel tile or the S curve tile.

Can I interrupt you just a moment? So the current house as it sits right now is kind of a ranch style home from 50s or 60s.

Yeah, it's very simple. It's got two roof pitches, gable ends, and then a barrel or the...

clay tile yeah and then it has been retrofitted from its original likely to the tile roof uh the clay tile roof i believe so it doesn't have a tile roof now yeah it does it does it does but it's it's on a flashlight okay uh that's that's why i'm saying he's depicting that because that is i drove by the house just to look at it yeah it's on a very historic street as well um i mean the Everything on that side of Nassau is not just BHP, but it's all historic. So it's 1926-ish. So yes, the answer to that question is yes, it would have to meet the BHP guidelines as much as possible. But you're starting off with a structure that wasn't really designed in that. Correct. kind of some variations obviously there was no garages at the time they were in the back of the property this is well after that so it's in the front and it's flat our guidelines talk about either a side entry garage which i don't know if you could do that uh or offsetting the garage back from the face of the which could still maintain it as a garage um yeah possibly you know

And your plan shows that there's a future garage planned in the back correct I was about to mention so we're the intent would be to keep that garage. If we can't keep it we can always close it in or just like a window or something. And then as you mentioned back. So back here a future carport. Our budget is allowed to have that now so that would be down the road. And we would do something that match the Nolan air style to where it's not closed in covered barrel roof and then has columns and then you just park underneath it. More of a carport yeah, yeah. Because with the layout of the property and the addition we don't really have room to put it the garage repo behind it and not see it. So that's that was our idea of getting parking, but not having an enclosed garage.

I'd like to thank you for tackling one of the eyesores in the island. I drive by that lot two or three times a day, and you look like you're off to a really great start on helping the community. Thank you for that.

We're excited to get in there. We came to the recent parade, and it was just fun to see that you're right there in the middle of it.

Oh, yeah, definitely front and center.

Yeah.

Um, I, I think, um, just, uh, you'd almost have to take it piece by piece, but the garage, um, I don't know if you use any way to, I don't have dimensions or anything, but just any way to offset that garage from the face.

You're saying the existing?

Yeah. I don't know if it's deep enough to do that. It's hard to tell for this. But that would be a way to, it's a pretty convenient place for a garage relative to the floor plan. The other one is a little farther, you know, carrying groceries and things. But at the same time, you know, trying to meet our guidelines with an existing residence, we'd have to review that. Okay.

And you're saying the three-rule item wouldn't apply just because the intent is we need to match that houses on that street and make sure we follow the guidelines yeah i'm not really sure if this qualifies as that okay i know that that's something we probably need to discuss um with the with the future garage and back could you just eliminate your garage that's we're leaning towards that if we need to and we could always close this off where the existing garage is and put a window in that space, and then we could even put like a side access over here off the side that you can't see from the road. Not that we could use for a vehicle, but at least have a larger opening. create another space with it? Yeah, that would give you more space.

A bedroom or a, it would make more sense as a bedroom, but then you have the driveway. Yeah. It also pushes that carport into this first phase. Yeah. So I don't know if your budget.

So would it be better when you're thinking long term rather than a carport to actually build a garage? not I mean it's a little more expensive, but it a lot more value in the property with a garage than you would at the back corner of your property.

It would be it's just finding that space and access because I'm assuming if we built it the you turn inside would have to be closed off like you couldn't see it from the road.

If you build it on the back corner of a lot that's acceptable.

Yeah, because it's far enough back from the main road.

and possibly for visibility or for anything else a wall on turin or something a wall on the property okay uh to kind of and the garage then could be built you know matching our guidelines also okay

When you as you're moving forward take a look at 7.10.6, that's the opening section. Okay. Windows doors and garages, especially when you're choosing the front door. Yes. For the new residents. Okay. And will you, is the intent to replace the existing front door or keep as probably replaced because it's nothing that follows the guidelines currently it's just a standard six panel okay yeah um also 7.10.7 is building features and entrance ways that one's really important um most of the historic homes had recess entries okay or a covered entry.

And we'll have that here. So right here, that's a walkway. Okay.

So the doors. Correct. That'll be covered. Okay.

So it's like a vestibule.

Correct. So it's open. Open air. So this is our front porch that's covered, but open air. And the intent would be French doors here facing the community center. Right. Then you walk in main space. This will be our dining. Now one question with the windows. I know they're very precise with the lights and the separations. We have a property in Sarasota that we just salvaged almost 15 windows. They're Hurricane Impact and they meet NOA guidelines. How specific would we need to be with the cross-sections? Like these are the actual windows that we were able to salvage. Oh, so there are divided lights. They have divided lights, they're bronze, and they're also casements.

Okay.

And the way I read it was some areas needed to have potentially two or three separations with an open at the bottom. But when I went through and looked at the actual renderings, some were just like these that you see here.

I don't. I think the guidelines are that specific about the number of divisions. That's good. I also noticed that your plan was changed from the elevation. The elevation shows three equal panels. Yes. And then you have kind of two separate, which either one would work. I can see, is the elevation the more current? Or the plan. I think she, whoever drew this, drew one larger window with some windows above it. Yeah.

Right. Well, I think the intent originally was to do this, but now that we have, we were able to salvage three windows that have the T-cross in each window. Okay. And they, they fit very much spotting with what the neighborhood has. Bronze casement. So if we, Hopefully we're not too picky with those because then it would be wonderful if we could use those in the building.

We were excited to get those out. I think the key there is that when you finish the house that it's consistent throughout. It doesn't have to be the same, but the architectural language is similar so that it looks not like this is an addition. that the old part of the house is brought up to the current. So the NASA windows look similar, same finish. The mullions could adjust somewhat. I see you have an arch top window kind of sketched in there in an existing opening. So that obviously that, that wouldn't be like that. It would be a more historic proportion and divisions where they're not showing that at this point, this is a really rough sketch, but it's just almost like a massing sketch. Um, so, but I, I think you, you might be able to use those windows. For example, if you just look at the, look at the west elevation, what we have now, right? So you have very tightly bound six over six or more tight mullions, and then the window opposite that, which is also replaced, is much looser, less divisions. It would need to, unless there was a specific highlight or something, you would need to make them all look similar. Don't get carried away with dividing them up too much. I think that's where your existing windows that you've salvaged might be a starting point, and then you carry that through. But the most important thing is to make it consistent architecturally. And that would follow through on the doors that come out of the, not the dining room, but that sitting porch, but the doors behind that. Once you start dividing these, and your architect would know when they start. Right now, we just have their stores back there. We don't know. But they would be similar in character.

Mark, a question.

On the roof line, you're 4 and 12 on the old building, and you're 6 and 12 on the other one. As an architect, does that? flow that way.

It's unusual. Yeah.

And that's evolving. So we're playing with lowering this roof line that's taller to match the pitch on the existing to get more of a consistent. Yeah. Is it 412? I don't remember on the existing. I'd have to look at our notes. Just from looking at it, it appears to be 412, which would be

adequate to get any type of barrel tile, whether it's clay, concrete, metal, to be consistent? And is the intent, Jordan, to match exactly the tile on the that's existing or to reroof the whole thing with one we're going to need to reroof because there are existing leaks but yeah yeah definitely want to read yeah well that is one element visually that changes the entire structure it has the largest surface area and impact between the roofing and the roofing materials and the way the shape of the roof is and the fenestration doors and windows yeah those two items can pull a house completely together as one instead of I added this in the 2026.

The goal is that when we're finished we're stuck going at all it's the roof has tie-ins that look intentional and reroofing it and hopefully not hopefully when we're done it will look like it's all it's been there all the time together.

That's so that's the from a design standpoint, you know the

north elevation where it's new looks consistent and then the west elevation looks like the ugly stepchild at this point yes so you need to pull some of that magic that you're proposing on the north elevation into the west elevation so it's consistent all the way around yeah we we played with thinking comment yeah yeah we played with doing similar like we have here

maybe doing that somewhere on this side?

Well, at the entrance especially, like if you were to pull that out and pull the roof out and cover that existing entrance so that it's just not one linear long facade on that west facade and you actually celebrate that a bit. I know it's not going to be the primary entrance, But it is a front yard, front street elevation. And that one's really important as well. So I think that would start helping a lot. I see that you're proposing adding site front walls at three feet. That will help. How you treat those walls is really important. But there's many examples throughout the neighborhood that you can get inspiration from.

Eventually we'll do...

block privacy wall to kind of highlight it but that'll be down the road for us yeah i think having a sidewalk that's not i don't know if it's there now or not there's one on nassau yeah i think retaining that sidewalk yeah um it's not shown currently as being planned that way um would help okay about the existing garage my comment to that is and You know, we understand that you're renovating. We do extensively renovating an existing home and then adding on to it. So, you know, we understand we don't want to force you into costs that could be better used elsewhere, in my opinion.

I agree. If you just look at that west elevation with the north, the use of the light fixtures carrying those details around to the west, the windows, the pitch of the roof, if you did celebrate that entry, it would really carry that same new look. At the end, you really need to blend these together so it looks like it was one build. That's the goal. So I know, but even the smallest things about just light fixtures, windows, that you could play that entry down, not be in the main entry, but it is an entry, and it would enliven this whole exterior.

Since you're going to be redoing the roof, if you were to bring that beautiful little A-frame arch over the main front door and do the same thing on the side front door, that would help to make the whole house consistent without a great deal of expense. And as far as I'm concerned, especially if you're going to have a wall around the outside, the garage door now is now on the side of the house and with a fence halfway up is going to be almost a non-issue in terms of visibility and respect for the whole integrity of the house. Again, I compliment you on your good plan.

Yeah, I do like that we were discussing having that a frame like you mentioned over on the West side to give it the 2 connections.

Yeah, I mean, if you look at the context that this house is in, there's wide variation. Wide variation between all the houses that are historic. So that provides you open license to use those as... What's in the neighborhood and integration.

Yeah, really would help.

Just the windows itself. I mean, muttons, you have, you know, very tight mutton patterns, and then four windows down.

That's what we keep finding.

You know, it's varied, and that's what makes it so interesting.

Yeah.

So you have the freedom to come up with something really nice and unique here.

Yeah, we're excited.

Like you said, it'll be fun. It's exciting. It's gonna be a great house, it's very visible, so it's important that all sides of this are thought about. I know we're only looking at the west and the north, but actually, in your proposal, even if the garage, the carport is contemplated for the future, I would treat, if you decide to do the garage the way it is, treat it for the phase one, if you will. I would at least maybe show where the garage, where the future garage would go. It wouldn't have to be detailed out, but just so that we can understand that. We typically, we do, we want all four sides of the structure. If I'm looking at what would be the east elevation of this, where the pool is, now you won't see, but we will look at that. So how that meets the garage would be important, or the carport. They're not as visible from the street, so it's a little less restrictive that way. But we still, the idea is the architecture holds together as one. So consistent all around. Yeah, it really is best to do it that way. And it's best for the value of the building. The style doesn't quit just because the code says you have to do something. It's a style. But the other thing that might be really important is that although you have one existing chimney, which were very typical VHP items, And I saw how they've adjusted what's there. The little curve on the bottom is not existing.

Correct.

It's a nice feature to do. Whatever you do to treat the top of that chimney, the cap.

So this is a barrel cap we were thinking of adding for both?

So you would change those to make them match. Correct. Like right now it's just flat. I know, but I'm just saying, I don't know what is going to stay on the existing and what isn't. But it's just another example of if you treat them the same, the new and the old, then it'll pull this thing together. Make it look like it's built together. You sound like you know what you're looking for.

and a lot of our a lot of the windows you know you where you're replacing i don't know if it's the same size the arched window on yes that one you know in the area the original homes used more narrower instead of one big window okay so maybe you consider adding two instead of one there to add interest to that i believe the home has

two currently.

I think so too. I noticed that. I think there's two different square windows.

So these are existing.

So you have the opportunity there if you want to rethink it a bit.

Yeah, we were doing like a smaller, more thin window.

Well, you can take an opening and divide it up into two or three, and they're vertically oriented like the historic windows, but they're in, they're mauled together. So that's another option. And, you know.

And then treatment, how they have that wood siding on the gable there currently in the existing house. We'll adjust that to stucco. And then you're going to stucco that. So celebrating that gable a bit with some ornamentation would help.

As far as ornamentation, like metal works or?

We have a wide variety of examples of, you know, how to use.

Like the venting or?

Historic features.

Yeah. Historically, they didn't have the fence that we have now, so they just took pieces of clay tile and they stacked them together and they created a vent, which was a functional need, but it ended up being an aesthetic element that they used. And they did it multiple ways. Sometimes they— Maybe add something like that in the Gable Inn?

It just adds to the historic character of it. Your because we taken off August back in September. The way we purchased this property. We financed it in the financing were financing the renovation. They've got us on a fairly strict timeline. With the August being taken off what could we do to help streamline and get everything reviewed in advance with the staff so that when you're back in September, hopefully it's a green light and we can sign off then. Is there anything I could send in advance to get reviews and just get a second set of eyes on it?

I don't know. It's up to say, I mean, we can't really review it without being here. So yeah, I don't think we can do that. Yeah.

Generally, we want to receive an application officially and then they'll do their review. So that's on record. Usually staff does not do a pre review because then, you know, people change it upon the application and they were like well you didn't say this before so yeah they will review so once you submit your official application they will do a review and staff is very diligent and so they'll give you any comments that they have okay so staff will give feedback yeah or september okay yeah they'll give feedback um if they have any comments that you need to address because it comes before the board when there's a complete application so they have to ensure it's complete and then they'll come they'll schedule before the board okay yeah

I mean, there were used completeness only. They're not going to give you a review and knowing this is ready and we're unless it's black and white in the ordinance as far as compliance.

OK, if there's something that doesn't comply, then they know that it would not be worth giving it to the board. But they're going to want the four elevations all done in CAD details, all the list of things, you know, you know, the type of window you're using, like fixtures. It really gives us a very clear picture. And that document that gets approved, hopefully, goes with that. So during construction, the staff knows what to expect and it goes smoothly.

Okay, that's good.

Yeah, I understand them pressuring you to do this. Unfortunately, you have a design professional, sounds like, that's gonna help you do this. So that will help stay with our guidelines and with our BHP. And if there's any questions they have, I think they can communicate with staff about that. You know, whether that's to some degree. But that will help you, I think. Sorry about the recess, but, you know.

I'm sure you guys need it.

We all need it occasionally.

Yeah, no, no big deal. Let me think here. Is there a submittal deadline that we need to have it in by September?

Yes, there's a deadline you can get with staff. It has to be noticed. So it has to go into the paper and be noticed several weeks ahead of time.

It's like an ad deadline, so that's the critical point which you have to submit so they make an ad deadline.

Yeah, you really don't want to miss that because that will push you a month.

I'll get with Nicole on deadlines.

You get with Nicole. She'll keep you straight on that.

One last question we were thinking through these past couple days on how we could make up some time. Would you be open to, if I pulled a building permit for the existing structure, and allowed us to do some plumbing and rework inside the building. Nothing with the windows, nothing with the exterior. And it's a good amount of work that it could prep us to get ahead of the two-month cycle and then pull a separate permit for the addition and then the whole entire exterior.

We don't have purview over any of that.

Okay, so that doesn't fall. If it doesn't involve the exterior of the building, then we don't really. Not at all, because it'll help us do plumbing and anything we need inside. We wouldn't have a problem. The building department would probably.

But inside there would be no.

Yeah, I understand your take on it. It might be possible given your time constraints, but they'll give you the correct information.

That's good.

well great all right well thank you it's an exciting project jordan thank you really well excited to join the community and yeah it's a great community i mean we're here to help you and that's why we offer this um the only thing that we didn't talk about is the walls and that gate on the side it's your intent and i don't know if i could tell from the sketch but to to do a block wall around the perimeter or is it just a thin wall let me says wing wall so I know there's a wooden fence there now against your neighbor there's so neighbor believe has a block.

Privacy fence between the properties, but they may have a wood fence on their side, yeah, I think there's a wood fence on there and then the existing backyard of this property has a I think it's a 5 or 6 foot metal fence. But long term, we will do, currently we have it as a three foot tall, just a wall right off our property line.

Right.

And then over here, whatever would meet code, whether it's five or six feet, we would do two side walls and a gate in the middle.

Okay. That's a very typical detail in all the historic areas. You can have fun with that. And it's just a wing wall with an opening to keep people out of the pool. Yeah, yeah.

And then a six-foot wall back here, just following whatever code guy lines with the height. Right. Okay.

All right. The treatment of that wall, as I mentioned earlier, is kind of important as well. The stucco or... We have lots of examples all over the neighborhood.

Okay. Well, great.

All right. Thank you, Jordan. Thank you.

Nice to meet you, and we'll look forward to seeing your application.

Yeah, definitely looking forward to it. Great. Thank you, guys. Thanks. Thank you.

All right. Anything more for staff with regard to that pre-application? All right. And then we'll go ahead and move into item number two on new business, which is discussion of code changes for color requirements. And Nicole is coming to describe what she redlined or lined through. And while she's coming up, I just appreciate everyone's willingness to continue to look at our code, look at our guidelines based on applicants who walk in the door and really are looking to do the best thing for them. But sometimes we have stuff written that just sounded all right when we approved it. But now it's rubber hits the road and it doesn't quite work. So thank you, Nicole. Let's let's see if we can.

Okay, yeah, we find that in every section, not just yours, so it comes up all the time. Ours is just more subjective, so it's a little harder to... Yeah, it's a little harder as staff for us to know what's going to work and what's not. But okay, so I've just put in some proposed language based on the discussion we had previously. One of the big things was that Commercial properties tend to use multiple colors and then residential are often just one, maybe two. So added that to the general language. Removed this kind of like description of what the colors are since we have the palette and the description may not always match how people view the palette. The pastels and we talked about how earth tones can be a little bit too subjective sometimes. But we still have the pallet, so all that language is still in there. And then removed the percentages. It seemed like pretty wide agreement that those were not working, but it's all open to your feedback. Anything you want to adjust with this, we can work it through.

And then the design alternative, was that just showing there's no space between number two and design? Oh, yep, you're right. Is that all that was?

Yes, because that one was already there. It just needs to get renumbered once we take out this number two. Okay, I see. Yep, thank you.

All right. All right, well, I think what you've proposed makes sense. I think we were faced, when we were doing this, we were faced with an outdated, which we still have, unfortunately, this outdated color palette, and so that language in facade colors was kind of an attempt to kind of push it along without having actual things that people can select. So I think getting rid of it makes sense for now. And on the heels of that, I'm going to make a concerted effort for September to have Beth Moore or someone else have an actual new color palette thing that we can actually review. Awesome. A lot of these things go away with better colors. But I think... The division between residential and commercial is pretty obvious. Although many of our largest, most prominent BHP and historic buildings are one color.

Yeah.

So almost all. So and I was the one back in the day, I have played with color for years and used it where it's tone on tone. and it really becomes an eye of the beholder thing. It does affect architecture a lot, but you have to really play with it to do that. Just mandating it, it causes, I think, it takes the creativity away from the design professionals and it forces owners to think they have to do something that they just don't want to do. And consequently, I think it doesn't come out right.

So a few comments. I mean, artists, architects, interior designers, common. It's an 80-20 rule that you, on anything that's painted, you have 80% one color, 20% other color. That provides contrast and interest. to the whole. That's just a common design language that is taught countrywide, worldwide. It's just common to know that. So the rule, I think what the percentages can be discussed for debate, but having the ability, the end result of this is that we're allowing without any guidance

restriction the ability for to paint just one solid color everywhere across the city or that is under our guidance and i think that that is a mistake maybe maybe john maybe the the discussion is we've been doing this for 30 years and we've really never had an issue with this and there's never been a regulation about it I think with trim and the differentiation between trim and body color, I think, and then accent colors. Yeah, and that was included as well.

Those are the 20%, yeah. I mean, and I think, okay, just from a general standpoint, a painter's gonna go to a homeowner and say, we can paint your house this color and we'll do the trim this color. That's the typical decision.

Right, and then an accent color, typically. No, well, I mean, I mean, we've talked about it even recently. We've talked about the need or the desire for the board saying, you know, we could do awnings here and create a new aesthetic, a better looking building by having awnings, canvas, whatever. Yeah, I mean, they die. They fail.

And this is just specific to color. You know, paint provides the least inexpensive way to change how a building is viewed.

Agreed.

Most people cannot afford material where that provides contrast. Correct. They can't afford stone so they choose paint to provide color contrast.

Right.

So this provides every homeowner and every business owner and developer of commercial property the ability to have that interest in the architecture, which I think is highly important. Colored use, you know, needs to be planned. If it's left to the very end, usually that's, you know, really bad. With the regulation in place, it forces that person to make the decision early, not late, which usually it's, you know, in all normality of how things are done in construction, it's usually late.

It's usually late.

Color provides personality. I understand that we're not restricting the color use by eliminating it if a homeowner wants to use it, but most people's inclination is always to choose the easiest way. And if the easiest way is just paint the building one color, that's the way most decisions are gonna be potentially made. Most folks, of the projects that we see before us do not hire a design professional that would ask the question they are have a developer or they have a contractor that has a draftsman that is going to come up with a design they're not going to ask those questions so eliminating the restriction just provides the inability for that question to be asked across the board, not just in special circumstances where projects have an architect or have a design professional that has a lot of experience with this.

I guess I keep going back to people don't want to make their building look ugly. And yeah, they can paint it one color or not. The Schoolcraft building is one color. Probably the best example of architecture that we have. It has colored awnings that the owners or design professionals down the road have done. And then there's a trim. But there's only one color. Now, it's changed over the years. And people have added it. But the question is whether we mandate that. Most people don't want to make an ugly building. They don't propose that. And we can also reject that.

If Prime Steakhouse, the new commercial building right downtown, has a variety of colors used, if that were painted one color, would that be as successful a building to look at?

I agree. I agree, John. As I told you, the Forethought building that I did a few years ago has five different colors on it. I chose that, and if you ask 100 people, they're gonna say it's one color, maybe two. So it's the use of color. I'm just hesitant of adding a restriction. To me, striking this doesn't harm us. We still review every proposal.

but we don't have any teeth to say you can't do that. That eliminates, you know, any, a lawyer getting involved and saying, show us where we're forced to do that. And they're going to say, it doesn't say that you could say you want to do it all you want. You say, please use another color. They don't have to do it.

Maybe we need some type of language. in it that allows the architects to take it without giving a specific number. I don't know how you're going to write it. Thank you, staff, if you could do that. Don't we also have the new color palette that's coming out? So you're going to have base colors in that?

Well, that's a debate. We haven't decided how to do that.

Base colors and accent colors?

Body color, trim color, and accent color should be a minimum. Yes. If we structure that pallet that way, then more than likely people will use it in that way.

But I don't know. Over the years, we continually do this. We tighten something up, and then we turn around, and we get hit with something, and then we've had to change it back. I know. And this is one of those things.

It's whether or not you... make it code that you have to do certain percentages. I just don't see. I agree with you, John, about every artistic endeavor, architecture, whatever has multiple colors. 80-20 would be a good percentage for that. But with body, trim, and accent colors, it would be three different. I don't want to restrict or mandate how much you do. I think that should be up to the applicant. and they submit it, we could reject it and say, you know, the typical VHP project had those three components. They had body color, which was the majority. They had a trim color, which was used or not used if they didn't have trim. And then an accent color, which brought life to the project, which was very minimal. That is 1926 to 2026. That has never, ever changed. And if we just said that, The board would be allowed, if they didn't think it was an appropriate use of color, to reject it or suggest.

I think that we should find a language between mandating a certain percentage, which I think we all agree can limit creativity and a good outcome because you're mandated a different percentage, and the suggested or strongly suggested guidelines for certain percentages, which usually works but does not always work.

so if we can find language that sort of explains that and encourages that i think that's the answer that we're looking for and i just want to voice uh just something for everybody to keep in the back of their minds as you know you're continuing this discussion so you know the changes proposed is fine um regarding sb 180 that because you're removing stuff it's making it less stringent that's fine but keep in mind if you want to add language we definitely have to get that reviewed because you don't want to make at this moment in time things more stringent because of SB 180 that right so just keeping that in mind as you continue the discussions it's a good point thank you and and and that that

SB 180 has pluses and minuses to it on every board. But on our board, I just feel like we need to have the ability to accept or not. We know more about what BHP should be than anyone else. It's a very subjective endeavor color. We've seen it over time, we've seen it change, and we're gonna see it again when we put out our new pallet. So I think we have the ability to evaluate whether a color combination scheme for a home is adequate. And we can vote on it. I just don't want to restrict someone for, feel like they have to do something that they don't want to do. Rarely does applicants come by and want to do an ugly building and if they do there's a lot of other stuff wrong with it other than the color. It's kind of the minor thing. We could easily refer to them to the new guidelines and palette and say let's start over here with this. But I think staff could come up with language as well. Nicole, do you think you can, from this discussion,

Possibly. So right now what we have is a may and not a must. Maybe we need it. But if you want to add something more about color being subject to board approval in certain cases, cases where it may not fit this. Sorry? The use of color.

Sure, yeah. I think we need to identify, trim, body, trim, Right? And accent colors. as a desirable part of BHP design.

Okay, so maybe in this A part, like where we have A and it's describing that it's important, it can be used in this way, it can be used in this number of combinations, we could add on to that to say, you know, trim and accent colors are desirable.

Not only desirable, but they were BHP, they were part of BHP, part of the historic precedence. I think that's what John's getting at. We don't want to say you might want to do this. You should do this because that's right. But then telling them what percentages is like. Every building's different.

This percentage came from HOAs across the state. They dictate percentage because

it's a controlled community and we live by these guidelines in a controlled community and we're giving that away so some of the some of the buildings you're using as examples though wouldn't comply with that like the forethought building it doesn't have only 75 one color only 20 one color and only five percent a third so some of the buildings that you all like don't comply with this

The hospital building that we have currently, the existing hospital is one blank color, and how does that look?

I think the building we're in right now is all one color. The architecture is an issue. City Hall, how about City Hall? Right, it's one color. What we're sitting in right now, one color. I'm just saying, it's the architecture, it's, you know, just take every building that we know about. Yes, we should be able to use different colors, and we want to, but mandating it, I think, is but not necessary, shell-shocked, one color.

Mr. Clark, Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to say something that, because John brought up a good point with the no teeth comment, because we, you can say strongly encouraged, desired, preferred, should, you can say all those things, because we have that in the code right now, in regards to architecture, by the way, not in your realm, but in another area of the city, that it was preferred, VHP never gonna happen so if you don't have any teeth those those words strongly encourage desired they have no teeth and typically nobody's gonna do it I mean you do have the percentages in there at this point there's a design alternative to change them you know I don't I don't know that you need to do anything at this point

The design alternative is for colors not on the palette.

But no, it's percentage, too. Oh, in this part.

That needs to be clear because all we're trying to do is allow someone to do what they want to do as long as it's approved by the board. Suggest, I mean, color is so subjective.

It's a little more predictable, though, for the applicant if they know that they've met the code.

rather than coming in with something that they is different or what they want to do and then they get denied and then have to go back and change i think sort of more predictability for the applicant and it depends on if it's a project that's already coming to you so that's what i was suggesting right here it says um used as a basis excuse me for review by staff but we could add something different that the board can make decisions on the use of color But if it's something that's not coming before you already for other reasons, then it would just be up to staff to decide, do we think this is what the board would want to see with their use of color? So that can be harder.

That's tough.

So the design alternative is basically a variation to the strict percentages, which we would recommend. Is that correct? Right.

So right now, yes. There's this part that is marked as strikethrough, but it's in the code right now. May be considered for the percentage of approved color coverage.

If they can get an exception, which gives them the right to appeal and do what they want, but yet we're requiring them to meet the percentages, it seems like we've already got the answer. There's flexibility in there.

And a design alternative, that's why we're on that subject, is not as stringent as the old variants. where you had to prove that you weren't damaging the neighborhood. I mean, it's almost impossible to get a variance now. It is very difficult.

It's just an alternative, a design alternative. It's something that they feel is better.

I want to do a, you don't have white in your buildings. I've done a shell shop's white, city halls. It's not, this color is not in our palette. I mean, yes, it could be, but next 10 years from now, it won't be. So I can't do that. That should not be with color. Color changes, it's subjective. People should be able to, and we've approved things that have,

I think what Nicole eliminated by saying the colors may include pastels, light earth tones, I think that was there for that reason. For that reason, yeah. And I think we should keep that as, you know, as just opinion.

Well, it was kind of a stopgap since we didn't have our current palette, so.

I mean, why don't we just change the percentages but keep them so it provides better variance? go to 8015 or 8010, so at least there's some percentage of an alternate color that we have to hold onto as a compromise.

Or maybe we add, if trim is used, trim, I don't know, I just don't see how we're ever going to get the right percentages. If you said trim was 5%, you know, 10%, I don't know, for the accent color and the body color. What if that doesn't match the building? Is staff going to actually start scaling out what percentage this wall is?

We're not going to. We're going to require them to tell us that.

Yeah.

But you know what I'm saying? I mean, it's like in all reality, I have to do that.

I don't get it. In all reality, this is kind of new because you know, a home, any of these buildings that we come before us are going to get finished and they're going to get painted again. So after that happens, that control ends because if they decide to reassess and one, it painted all one color, That's what they're going to do. And there's not going to be a code official knocking on their door saying, you don't meet the color palette. You've got to change it back in reality.

Yeah. No, that's true. And we shouldn't. We shouldn't control that.

But at least that first step, when it's first done, it provides some design guidance for those individuals that don't hire design professionals. Yeah.

I don't know, it's difficult. I think we should have something in the color portion of this code that says it's required to do a body color, an accent color, and a trim color if used. Something to that effect.

Instead of percentages, we can add that to the beginning where we explain it's not often complex, sometimes two paint colors for residential, sometimes multiple for commercial, but accent and trim are required and are essential components of the VHP. Something about that.

Accent, trim, if used. I mean, we have a lot of examples where there's no trim. So I don't want to start requiring something that causes 180 to go off. I'm trying to make it less restrictive and more creative for me.

Mark, everyone, I'm wondering if using language like no less than such and such percentage or no greater than such and such percentage when you're looking, I mean, instead of just, okay, it's going to be 80-20 or it's going to, you know, whatever variation it could be, a range of percentage that would be up to something or not greater or, you know, not less than. And you know, if a person, if an owner wants to do something in a very slight gradation of a changed color, but it's a different color, I mean, they're all different kinds of ways that that could mix up. And it's like, who wants to be the boss? We're not in an HOA. I mean, I guess effectively, it isn't anything like an HOA.

Helen, that's a good idea. Just because the language could give little flexibility. That's a good idea. I feel like that's a compromise that would help. See, it's all realtor stuff, you know.

From our lawyer's perspective, does that still have teeth as what she's, what Ms. Hunt is proposing?

I mean based on just what I'm hearing I mean once I see it I can make more of a determination but if you say an up to generally yes because that gives a range and it gives like a maximum amount.

So what kind of percentage do you think is appropriate 80 or more than 80 would be up to a maximum of whatever percent maybe one color?

I think 80 is reasonable. I mean, it gives it a flexibility.

Okay, so up to 80% may be one body color.

Okay. Yeah, body color. Call it body color.

Okay. And then we'll add that accent and trim are essential to the BHP, but do you want to go further than that? Up to 80% may be a body color, so then you may end up only getting two colors, which it currently says is often typical in BHP, so as long as you're okay with that, we can work with that, but I just want to be sure.

Up to 20% must be a secondary corresponding color for an architectural feature or other

for an architectural feature or?

Or others. I don't want to define it so that it narrows people down one path.

What if we just stop? It must be a secondary corresponding color. Okay.

Yeah, let's just make it simple.

Okay. I would have to say, The owner's aesthetic may have something to do with it. It's like, okay, it's an accent color. Like I mentioned a minute ago, the gradation of the different color may be imperceptible.

Or in the sunlight, it's one thing.

But it does make a difference. It does make a difference. But I just think we... don't get too many words because that's too many opportunities to interpret it differently. Right.

Right, does corresponding mean a similar tone or does it mean contrasting or does it mean, yeah. That's a good example.

Yeah, I would just, I think it's fine.

Secondary corresponding color is fine. Corresponding color. Okay.

Yeah, I think that gives, I mean, again, we're reviewing this. Right. So it's not like we're not seeing it. There's not enough contrast there to do that. They bring us paint samples. We have the roof tile, we have to see all the colors. And then maybe something in the design alternatives, say variations from this. I think that, I forget what the language says. Variations from these color, Uses of color?

Yeah, so there's two. One for the percentage of coverage and then one for the actual approved colors. Okay. So we can leave both of those in there.

That percentage should be, in my opinion, moved down to design alternate, so it's specifically listed there instead of being included with the color coverage. Okay. So that it highlights it. Yeah. If you don't like this, the percentage can be challenged.

Okay.

I agree with that. That would have solved it. Well, you know, we've approved many things. I think the condominium project on Nokomis, which hasn't started yet, came in with that green color. I think they did that because they read our guidelines and they just put 30% and it was just so much. So not BHP. We got a chance to review it, changed it, and it worked. So we do affect the projects before they get out. Now, five years from now when they want to go paint it purple, we have to have

then we send Roger out there.

Well, yeah, then they still are supposed to come to us for approval at an administrative level. I mean, we may not catch them all. There's been some that we've seen after the fact, but not very often.

But John's right. We get one chance, and then after that, we're kind of on thumb.

So the 5%, are we going to list that as trim?

Trim if used, I would say, because it's

Do we need a percentage for trim? If you're saying up to 80% may be a body color, 20% must or may be a secondary color? You can say up to 20. Right, up to 20. Should that be a must be or a maybe?

Must. Must. OK.

So then up to 80% must or may be a body.

And then trim if used.

Trim, if used, should be?

A corresponding. Up to 5%. Contrasting color, if used. Trim doesn't work unless it's contrasting.

Okay.

It could. Depends on.

Most residential will have trim. They have trim. Commercial will not. Will not. But I think it's important because. These are primarily residential. Majority of what we see is residential nowadays. It is.

All we've done is make it 105% instead of 100%. Now it just says instead of 75%, 20, and 5, now we've got 80, 20, and 5.

All right. Just leave trim off there.

OK.

I can't figure out trim. We're going to get to see it, so it doesn't matter.

So with the up to, that's where it gives them room to add a trim color and then it doesn't have to be 20% secondary. Right. Yeah.

We're removing them having to necessarily tell a homeowner to do a calculation or staff to do a calculation. But it provides enough teeth for us to say that doesn't look right.

Yeah, they still have to calculate it. They still have to prove 80-20. right or up to up to yeah it's a quite quite a variety of areas right but they're they're at least um requiring two colors so you can't have one only one solid color yeah and that's what we want to do yep okay is that enough information I think so we can bring it back to the September meeting and make sure that everyone still likes it maybe we can take a vote at that time if you feel more comfortable with it yeah that'd be great okay thank you for working on that I know it's been a pain but no that's what we do we've always got code issues to work through so we're glad to do it yeah well we haven't run into that many but uh

All right. Anything else for staff today?

All right. Mr. Clinton, we have something.

Harry is moving. I see him moving.

Harry's coming down to speak to you. I just wanted to indicate that you're on break after this meeting, so your next meeting is not until September, and I have the date written down in the back, but it's not until September. September 10th is your next meeting, so enjoy your time off, and we'll see you in September.

Thank you.

All right, for staff comment, Harry Klinkhammer, Historical Resources Manager for the City of Venice. First, I just want to put in a plug for on July 23rd, the Venice History Museum will be hosting the Florida Freedom Tour. It is a traveling exhibit from the Florida History Museum. on the exhibit on the history of Florida as part of the States America 250 programming. So we will have those exhibits that truck here on July 23rd from 9 to 4 just outside of the museum. The museum will be open that day as well. It's a Thursday. Normally we're not open that day, but I would like to encourage all of you, if you can, to stop on by and see the traveling exhibit. It'll be right outside the museum doors. And then I just wanted to give you an update about our state grants. Actually, we've got now three in play. First, the Edgewood in the Seaboard survey that you all got the report on. We got comments back from the state. They wanted a little bit more in-depth information. uh they were late in getting us their comment so we got a 30-day extension to close out the grant so we have until the end of this month so i'm working with the contractors uh to add in the information that the state was looking for and we should be sending that off here in the next couple of weeks also too with the budget passed for the state of florida all the grant applications and the small matching grant category are getting funded for fy 27 so that means for us that is going to be the gulf shores and golden beach area so at this point now we're waiting on getting the confirmation letter and contract FROM THE STATE FOR THE MAYOR TO SIGN AT A COUNCIL MEETING, AND THEN WE CAN START MOVING FORWARD ON GETTING THAT PROJECT GOING. AND THEN THIRDLY, WE SUBMITTED OUR GRANT APPLICATION FOR FY28, WHICH IS GOING TO BE, AS YOU HAD REQUESTED, THE VINITIA PARK AREA. SO THAT APPLICATION GOT SUBMITTED THIS WEEK. so that will get reviewed and ranked this fall and then wait to hear about the budget to see if there's funds for again how it's ranked and they just whatever money is then uh budgeted for they just start going down the list until they run out of money so uh so we'll just have to see where where we are ranked One thing we're going to be doing is slightly different. We're not going to just be looking at the Venetia Park National Historic District, but the actual Venetia Park section of Venice, which actually covers more area. The Historic District, when it was done, was based upon a survey looking at solely 1920s architecture. broadening the boundaries to the actual physical section of Venetia Park, and like the other surveys, we're going to be looking at properties and structures up to 1960.

Great. That's a good report. Any questions for Harry? I have one. Can you give us an update on the pavilion, restoration, repairs, something. Is there any money for this? I'm just curious.

I have no information on that. No?

I wondered if they had spoken to you guys about that. I feel like we haven't made any progress there. Now we have.

We can address it a little bit.

A truck ran through it and

There was a capital improvement project that was in the budget and I want to say it was in the $600,000 range to do a major roof replacement on that property. Obviously this has been a tight budget year for the city in anticipation of certain things that may happen at the state level. so all departments were asked to do the best we could to try and reduce our expenses and I believe that Public Works came up with an alternative to do a lesser cost project on that roof that I think we're hopeful if I remember the Public Works director saying hopefully would last around five years and then we could you know we know more after this year and be able to get into the major So I think they're gonna do some, I hate to use the word Band-Aid, but some type of minimal work, less expensive, more around the $100,000, $150,000 range for the time being, and then look at a more detailed and more structural changes later.

Okay. Just know that structures like that tend to deteriorate. Yeah. And we have a lot of those. Anyway, just wondering.

That's why they're going to do something to it at this point next fiscal year as long as the budget is approved and then look for a more major. I did want to mention one other thing. As you know, Lisa Olson, who you're all familiar with, has retired and moved back to Colorado. We have hired someone. Laura Augustus Thomas is her name, and she's actually starting next Tuesday. She's gonna be the administrative assistant for both the Planning and Zoning Department and the Division of Historical Resources, so she'll be spending time in both locations. And that was at least another budget issue. We used to have two administrative coordinators. We're down to one now. So she will be starting next Tuesday. So if you get emails from Laura, then you'll know that's our new administrative assistant.

Okay. Great. Thank you. All right. Well, I guess we'll see you in September. If there's nothing more, our meeting is adjourned. Thank you.