Property Maintenance Board of Appeals - Regular Meeting

December the 11th, Property Code Enforcement Board is now called to order. Welcome to the December 11th City of Vandelia Property Maintenance Board of Appeals meeting. Once the public's hearing is opened, you and other interested parties will have the opportunity to present relevant information regarding the appeal before the board. The property maintenance board is responsible for determining whether the code official has misinterpreted or misapplied the property maintenance code and for deciding whether a property constitutes a public nuisance requiring abatement. Before we begin, anyone wishing to speak before the board this evening must be sworn in. If you intend to provide testimony, please raise your right hand and respond with I do at the end of the oath. Seeing no one this evening, yes thank you, Mr. [laughter] So I could practice if I wanted to. Yeah, I could. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you give tonight will be true and accurate? Thank you. Uh we don't have much on the uh on the agenda this evening. Uh but Mr. uh Mr. Ben Graham, our liaison from the uh city city uh staff is going to call attendance for the record.

Mr. Atkins, Mr. O'Brien here. Miss Peyton here. Mr. Gizon here. Mr. Frochower here. All right, we have five people in attendance. Our mics have to be on when you speak. Okay. Yeah, but I got you.

I suppose seeing a quorum, the meeting will progress and our first order in business is reorganization meeting is a nomination for chair. Uh I in full disclosure, I told Mr. Graham that if nobody else wanted to do it, I'd do it. But but I'm not in love with it. But I would do it to get the ball rolling. Uh so if there's anyone else that would like to nominate for the chair, go. So say it. Say it now. Do you want to be the Anybody else want to do it? Give me a raise if you keep the job. Yeah. Right. You have a lovely speaking voice.

Thanks very kindly. Uh seeing no other interest in this position, uh I'm going to appoint myself as the chair. All right. Well, let's do a we'll do a motion in a second. Okay. Let's uh somebody make the mo would anybody care to make a motion? I'd like to make a motion to uh nominate uh Mr. Frochower as the chairman of the property maintenance board of appeals. I'll second the motion. We have a first for Mr. Atkins and a second for Mr. O'Brien. So, can we do this by acclamation or do you want to read the role? We can do acclamation. Okay. All in favor? I I opposed. Motion carries.

Right. 5-0. 5-0. Let me get back in practice here. Uh, our next order of business is the nomination for the vice chair. Not quite quite as smooth and easy because nobody's on the scorecard. Uh, we'll now entertain any nominations for the vice chair. I don't know what that entails. Essentially, when the chair is absent, as long as I'm here, it'll be pretty easy. you will uh fill in for Mr. Froer if he is absent for the meeting. He will essentially lead the meeting from the Yeah, I can help him with that. Then I can you'll nominate and so uh Holly's going to nominate herself.

Somebody else somebody make a motion for Holly Peyton Jim speaking part. I make a motion that Holly be vice chair. Vice chair. Can we get a second? I'd second that. Is there any interest from anyone else to make a nomination? Uh, okay. Call the or what what's my next part? Vote by acclamation. Okay. Yes, we're going to vote by acclamation. All in favor? I opposed. Five to one. You have the minutes. Do we have the minutes? I don't see they're in the in the back

very back. These were from essentially what we're going to ask is I think one member of the board was here during that last meeting and none of the staff is here. We're going to pretty much vote to approve it on a procedural basis since it is older just to kind of close that part here and then eventually move on to the next chapter here at the board. So we're going to ask for an approve a motion to approve the minutes of the the previous meeting 2015. We'll ask for a motion to approve that. Okay, we'd like a motion. Would someone make a motion to approve those minutes? I so move. No, you want to get in all the minutes, don't you? You're right. I appreciate. Can we get a second?

I'll second.

I believe we're going to go ahead and and uh vote on this by acclamation again. So, all in favor? Opposed? Carries five to zero. To those of you watching tonight on YouTube, we're going to get much smoother as we go along. Uh, well, that was the approval of the minutes. We don't really have any old business and our new business. Mr. Graham, would you talk to us about the property, uh, PM25-00001 Alexander M. Feige at 402 East Alkaline Springs Road, uh, who was apparently issued a summon and abatement for a nuisance.

Yes. So we had that property here on 402 East Illine Springs Road. At the time when this was done, he had overgrown weeds on the side and back of his property and per city code section 148210A1. All land shall be properly maintained with lawns, hedges, bushes, tree lines, trees, and other vegetation to be trimmed and kept from becoming overgrown and unsightly. He was sent two violation letters on July 23rd in August 6th and failed to remedy that violation at this time. However, referring to the PowerPoint, this is what was there before. A lot of overgrown overgrowth there along the side of the house in the backyard. And now he has trimmed up all that overgrowth and is now compliant. So at this time I What were you saying with this mic? What should we do with this again? Make no not no motion but just so with in in this circumstance the board is was was asked to review a nuisance property and to determine whether the violation required abatement or that the property should be declared a nuisance. In an in an ideal world, the first letter to the applicant or to in this case the the property owner would have been their clue to go ahead and clean up the property in a manner consistent with the code. They didn't. We sent a second letter. They failed to comply. At that point, we submitted the case to you. The notice that they received that it was going to the property maintenance board appears to have been what spurred them to actually clean the property. So the result is kind of the best case scenario. The property was cleaned up.

Obviously, there's still work to do, but none of that is subject to the nuisance that was before you. It was if because we had other business through the the reorganization and and whatnot, we still held the meeting. But in a circumstance where we only have one case on the agenda and the property owner cleans up the property, unless it's like the afternoon before the meeting, chances are good we'll notify you and if there's a consensus, we'll go ahead and cancel the meeting. Sounds sounds logical.

Um, in this case, we wanted to continue to present it to kind of give you an idea of what we're looking at when we submit the cases to you. We want to be respectful of your time. We want to be respectful of of your involvement, but at the same time, we don't

we don't want to throw things at you that, you know, eight cases and oh yeah, seven of them complied. We want to make sure we give you all the information that we've got. And this is the kind of information you'd be presented with. Uh the pictures of the violation. All of the pictures are timestamped. Uh GPS gives us the address and we're logging who took which picture. So that the resident is like, "I had already cleaned it up. I don't know what you're talking about. We can document what the condition of the property was so that you have all the information you need to make a determination one way or the other.

I have an observation that and and and I just want to put it out there so you maybe you can explain it is that this this took three uh summons or notifications to the property owner. Is that right? In this case, in this and I don't know if that's normal and customary or is it usually one and they will clean it up? 90% of the time it's one and done.

When it when it goes to this level and it takes one, two, three, I mean there were there were uh is that for me? Okay. Uh there are there are 20 pictures on this and a whole battery of of documents that have to be provided that takes a lot of time. It it's an expense to the city. is so is there any um remedy that that if it gets that far along that they that there is some fine or is there or should there be I guess is whoever's Mr. The ultimate goal for this is to get compliance and sometimes compliance typically it's quick, sometimes it's like this case was a bit slower. We depending on how urgent it is with the clamp. If it's like grass, we can do that immediately. If it's trash blowing in someone's yard, we can do that immediately. Or it's something like block invisibility, we can knock that out immediately. For this stuff here, there are essentially two options we have. We can go to the board and have you guys give us permission to abate the nuisance or we could take it to court and that sometimes does get dragged out a lot and they end up getting a lot more extensions that way through court and get a very minimum fee through that

and then we've got the expense of our law director appearing probably. Is that right? Well, it'll be the prosecutor. But that being said, even this board as we go Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, sorry. But when this board once say you deem this as a nuisance or whatever we're going to call we would call that or whatever. Um, they would have another 30 days or 31 days to comply. Correct. Yeah. So we have to so when a violation starts we at least give them 60 days before we can do anything like this and then we take it to the board and then they have 35 days to clean up or we will build them and assess them

the cleanup cost and we would have a contractor go to their property clean up whatever it is that the board deemed to be a nuisance and then we would invoice that property on and they don't pay the invoice everything will be assessed to their taxes. So that's the primary that's the primary means by which they would get a monetary charge. I know that process. I'm I'm a I'm familiar with that. Yeah. Not because of my property, but I do know that can happen. Uh so I guess in answer to the question there they don't incur any expense for stringing us along. Yeah, that's the way I want to ask that question.

At this point, no. Short of us, we make them comply. We have somebody go out and do it. then the city will assess their texts. So, but any of our time and staff's time is not really covered. Anybody else have any remarks on that subject? And just clarification, they've trimmed all the weeds and cleaned up, but is the trash and everything still there? Uh, the bench should be gone now. the they have some logs piled up nicely there and they had a was like a little awning thing in the back that fell over. That wasn't part of the violation. This violation was just the overgrowth. Okay.

The [clears throat] bench was not part of the original violation, but they said assured us it was make it worthwhile. They thought they drove. Well, I know we just kind of write it by each of individual, but it just got to be just the weeds and overgrowth is what we got on that. Understood. One thing to keep in mind, too, just on a sidebar on that, what you're talking about is like if we have a property that has a vehicle on prop on on site, we can't take it to this board. We have to take it through our law director and then he's got to go through the courts to get that so we can get it removed. They can declare it a nuisance here, but we can't

Okay. So we can't abate it until we take it to court. So there's more time that would be to do that. That's not a short process either. We've done that a few times. Happened very often. Uh we've towed some vehicles. We did Oh, we had a property on Miller Lane. We towed about 11 of them. Yeah. Unlicensed vehicles. Unlicensed. Unoperable. Disabled. Yeah. Disabled. Yeah. I got you. We had to pull two of them out. It was two feet deep in the ground. So question is it ever our responsibility as a board as individual board members to identify a property that we feel does not match does not meet the requirements of the the code that you provided.

Yeah, you can always bring that up and we can always check that out. That's the the building official. You're getting a little bit ahead of me. I was coming with that. You guys are all clear with see the city website. You can put something in there or like say probably these thing just reach out to one of us and email [clears throat] us and we'll get on. But I can't go and issue it. Please don't do that.

Yeah. I I would also point out that whenever we receive complaints, we have an inspector or one of us review the complaint and and look at the property and see if the complaint's warranted, if there is something that is violating or whatever. Sometimes we get a complaint about tall grass and by the time we get, you know, they put in a complaint on Friday and when we get there Monday, they cut it over the weekend. So, we have a record that there was a complaint, it's closed as unfounded, and that's that is the tale of it. So, we track all of that as well, but if we get there on Monday and the grass is up to my knee, then we put in a violation, send the

Is that the usual measurement when the grass is to your knees? Uh, it's it's I want to say it's Yeah. 8 in. We've got I was joking, but I presumed it. I thought it went more more polished than that. You know, since we we're kind of in park here and we're we're talking about this and we're trying to get smarter on the on the process. Is is is there a chain of chain of people like I know Kip Milligan and he's been there a long long time and he's the is he the field guy? Is that what you would call him? Yes, he he is officially he's the housing inspector primary code enforcement. Well, Michael, how does this how where's who's in charge and what's the ch level of Uh, Kip responsibilities.

Kip, he goes out. He does the field inspections. I'm Kip's supervisor. Okay. So, Kip then you. Yeah. And then Mike is my supervisor and then Mike reports to Rob. Does Chris do anything? Honestly, sometimes my name unfortunately way this thing has been set up in the in the ordinance is the chief building official is the chair of Yeah. It used to be Ted. Yeah. Which used to be Ted, which and I get it. It just the bus got stopped somewhere. Yeah. And then that's where it's put underneath my umbrella. So, but usually, but we all collectively work together. Like there might be like there was a deck out on Chevy Hills for example that we were thinking about taking to you guys, but they actually ripped it out this week,

right? This is one that Chris identified that was not safe and I got there and it wasn't safe. So based on something that he observed and from his experience as a building official, we were able to make a conclusion this isn't safe and we told them to either fix it up or get rid of it and they got rid of it. So I guess that would be my position is if it's safe or not.

Okay. Unsafe then yeah, we're going to take more so looks for like property maintenance issues. I look for more zoning issues like if someone built a fence without a permit or a shed or did an addition without the proper permits. That's more so what I look out for. Kip looks up for more for grass, broken windows and stuff in that kind of wheelhouse there. And also a lot of times if if it's something building could be building related, I usually go longer. I have one of my other inspectors go. Makes sense. Yeah. Just makes sense to help back up. I have a question.

Just maybe Michael can answer this one. Do the different zoning districts, do they change or interfere with with what we're dealing with here, or is this universal for throughout the city limits? Generally, the property maintenance code is going to be applied regardless of the district. It may be applied differently based on the use. An industrial or a commercial property that might be open to the public or more open to the public is going to be handled differently than a residential property for example. But the zoning district itself as far as code enforcement and as far as things that would come before this board enforcement is uniform.

And there are different processes too. Like if there's a business that we've dealt with before, we might give them a phone call, let them know, hey, you your sign out here's falling over. Can you get this fixed? and they'll typically get that. If we can do a phone call, if I know them, I will prefer that method. But sometimes we never talked to them before. This is the first time we're dealing with it. We don't know any other information. So, we had to send them a letter that way as well. a lot. So, but pretty much, you know, Scott, yeah, I know I'm call there is a there is a shortcut trying to shorten this up,

you know, and I think that's appropriate for more of a small town feel because there's 15,000 people and probably somebody in this building often knows that who to talk to. I get it. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. On the matter of PM25-001, the weeds have been cut. So, is that um we say it's closed? Yeah. No, we recommend that no action is taken on this. Very good. All right, that moves us along to uh is there anything else on that matter?

I had one more thought. Is is there a format that's going to be consistent in either time or quantity of notices? cuz it sound like once you you know I feel pretty powerful because you told them we were going to be involved and they got it taken care of. So is it two is it on the third notice? Is it after x amount of days? What's the

we can take any property for a property maintenance violation after 60 days it's been open to you guys and different properties will be evaluated differently. If someone's working with us for maybe the first 90 days, then we they quit hearing from us and then they just drop cold turkey, we might that mine might be delayed a little bit. And there might be some too that as soon as the 60-day mark hits, we're taking it right to you guys. So each case will be differently, but has to be at least 60 days. Thank you. The other question I had when I first reviewed this was I'm assuming you're always approaching the property owner, correct? In the in the event this were rental property, it's their responsibility, right?

Yeah. Yes. But we always notify both the owner and the tenant. Yeah. So, usually the tenants, they'll never Yeah. We're we're Yeah. Yeah, we're required by law to notify the property owner of record, which can get a little dicey because we're required to use the McGomery County auditor's records, which are not always up to the minute, up to date, but we use the best information we have. Uh we contact the property owner that way.

In the case of a non-responsive property owner, frequently we will send a copy of that letter to the property address as well. So, between the tenant and the owner, somebody's going to, oh, I got to cut the grass or whatever it is. Thank you for that point. And I I hadn't thought of our importance and how the how much value we have, but maybe [laughter] maybe we'll have to get a raise. Huh. At any rate, uh the other uh thing I'd like to mention in our new business, I talked to Ben Graham on this subject, is one of the mo biggest nuisance, as long as I've been here, and I've lived here 25 years, maybe it hasn't always been a nuisance, is the commercial property that formerly was General Motors Inland, uh at the corner of 25A and Northwoods Boulevard. And Ben had some uh conversation on it or an explanation. Um, but despite the e explanation, I think it's I'd like to know what the matter of recourse is. Do you guys know the property I'm talking about?

The forest. The And it is a forest. Um, it used to be beautiful when I was Yeah. 250 Northwoods HVAC1.com. We talked about HVAC being in the back. The property. No, but that's the the business there. Well, go ahead and say it for the rest of the group. There there's a pro there's a HVAC leasing the back of the building. Yes. Right. Is it twothirds of the building they do, Chris? Probably more like a a third. Yeah, I'd say

I'm very familiar with the property primarily because of the nuisance they created where I live and where Ron lives. Uh is the CSX property that's contaminated and and and I know it could the EPA had not released it in recent months. Uh and I understand there is some something happening on that. It it's still in the process. We all I guess we were assuming as we were told that it was all the rehab they had to do was going to be done this year. Yeah. Well, that wasn't true. Right.

Still in the federal EPA, not the state EPA. Until it gets to the state EPA, it's still whatever it's considered. So there's another step still that needs to be made. Here's the point is there's a prop 320 acre property parcel there that's right across from where we live that was uh determined to have been cont the groundwater was determined determined to be uh contaminated by the uh tritoacchloride or whatever the chemical

and and the EPA didn't even want that ground stirred up uh and and so I've been very protective of everybody out there. Before me, it was Councilman Dave Lewis was actively involved is we don't want to stir it up. We don't want those cancer-causing carcens. So, until they clear that, I presume it's still going to be rated by the EPA as unsuitable. Does anybody understand you're saying what you're I'm talking about the 320 acres across the street from you guys. What you think? That's that's mean that's still in the plume I believe. Yeah. say, but from what I understand, I don't know the rules.

Okay. I I was just curious my that's secondary to my point. I'd like to know what the process is uh to uh get that get that parking lot that's not leased. If the guy was smart, once a year, he could probably offset the cost of it by leasing it out at the air show. But but that being said, what is what's the next if if I if I make a complaint or this board makes a complaint on that property, then what can you get that in motion? Yes. So I did create a complaint on that from our conversation. Oh, great.

Earlier Rob Crown has reached out to them. They have not yet returned his call, but we have started that process. Now I will say one thing everybody know and it makes more sense to do it for the air show and stuff like that. Yeah. But there's a lot of foundation things sticking up out there too. So to drive in there, I don't know if I want to drive my car out there. Just saying. Well, and I don't know if it's contaminated that could also be a problem. Like say there I don't know what I don't think they dug the foundation up. They just took the building up the old foundation anchor bolts and all that stuff. I see I see your concern and that's similar to

that would be my facilities of that type before. Yeah, that's happened elsewhere. Well, could you, Ben, could you report to us next month on if anything's happened on that property and and so on and so forth? Yeah, of course. Communications for next time. Well, it'll be something to be on the agenda. So, we got two other maybe.

Yeah, we'll have uh at least four for nuisance debatement next time, unless they all comply, which I don't think that'll be the case. Uh well, we've all kind of taken a a a turn at bat, but uh I suppose that brings us to the part of the meeting where remarks from members of the uh property code enforcement board. So, we'll start off with is that would you say that's right? Yeah. Okay. Start off with you Marcus. I have no nothing tonight. Jim, nothing. Thank you. Holly,

nothing. Thank you for the big vote of confidence and allowing me to be the chair of this illustrious group. So, at least you got something to put down. That's right. Uh can I have a motion to uh to adjourn the meeting? You again? I can't. Oh, you can't. I motion to close. I make a motion. I make a motion to close the meeting. Second. Second. By acclamation. All in favor? All right. 527.