Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all for all. Okay. So, uh, let me welcome everyone to the April meeting of the Union Township Planning Commission. And having completed the pledge of allegiance, we'll have roll call, please. Bradshaw, here. Brown here. Hase here. Lap here. McDonald here. Present. Shingles present. Quadrrio here. Here. All right, we have four. Okay, everyone's here. Welcome everybody. Um, so next item is approval of tonight's agenda. So you have tonight's agenda in front of you. Uh, we have a presentation, usual reports, uh, two new business items and one other business item. Uh, I guess two other business items, but uh, is there anything else that anyone's aware of that needs to be on tonight's agenda? Are there any concerns with tonight's agenda? Move to approve. Second. Second. So, uh motion by Olver, second by Hayes to approve uh tonight's agenda as was prepared. Any further discussion? All in favor, please say I. I. Any opposed? Okay. So, our agenda is approved. Next item is the minutes. Uh we last met on March 18th. You have the March 18th minutes beginning on page four of the packet. Are there any corrections to the March minutes? Under the approval of agenda and approval of minutes, it should be seven eyes since there were seven of us last time.

Well, actually, I think eight is right because I think under under roll call. Weren't you here? No. I don't think I was here. McDonald was not here. I was here. Yeah, you were here. I was. But you're not listed. Oh, I'm not listed. Maybe that's it. That's what I'm saying. So maybe I was invisible. I don't know. No, I was here. So we did add shingles. The numbers were okay. We were eight. Yes, the numbers are correct. See that? Sorry. Yeah, please add shingles as present under roll call. Terra, did you forget about me? I don't know. Let me look at all of our other motions if you he did he did move the first item of new business. Looks like he's in all the other ones. Jeez. Dan is that shows you how irrelevant I am. Well, the thing about it is in my in my social media scrolls about every other frame is what is shingles? And I always think about you. I can tell you what it is. It's a very painful disease. Shingles is um well, not to get too nitpicky, but starting on page si, well, it's page three of the minutes, page six of the packet under under uh when we were doing the roll call votes. Okay. Um well, actually, I noticed one more thing just now. So, at the top of page uh the third page of the minutes, um there's you added an s to over. So, that should just be over singular because there's only one of him here right now. I do tend to speak on behalf of my family, but I think he's right in this case. Where was that? So, it's Oh, I see it. Yeah. But then also starting here in every other um uh roll

call after this nays is just n a ys. You added an e. Isn't it funny? I actually I actually blame I blame Hayes for that because he's got an E and you're kind of trying to match. It's all your fault, John. Geez, man. I add everything. Yeah. But so also on page seven or the page four of the minutes, same thing. Maybe they changed their mind and said, "No, yes." Well, she she didn't she didn't attempt she didn't attempt to capture the the um she didn't attempt to catch capture the the I versus battle that we had. So, I figure that's probably a plus. Sorry, Tom. Tough crowd. It is the story of my life. Anything else on the minutes? I mean, contentwise, I thought they were I mean, they're they're usual usual thorough and accurate minutes. Move to approve with the noted changes. Second. Okay. So motion by Olver with second by Bradshaw to approve the minutes with the minor minor corrections as stated. Any further discussion? All in favor of approving the minutes please say I. I. I. Any opposed? Okay. So minutes are approved. Next item is correspondence board reports and presentations. And as I mentioned, we do have a special presentation tonight um by Amanda Break proposal for Maslo's Village Tiny Homes as transitional housing support for the homeless. Hello.

I feel very honored to be here tonight with you um and representing such an incredible organization. Thank you so much for having us. And you now have two presentations. So, you are all stacked up and ready to go. It's your last week presenting to the trustees. So, thank you uh like I said for allowing me to present to you this evening. I would like to start by saying this is not a comprehensive in-depth detailed proposal. This is just a hello. This is who we are. Uh on April 23rd, we do have a meeting with our build and zoning group that we've created for our tiny homes project. and then we'll be presenting the PUD planning. Just a a quick question. Is it possible to bring the presentation up on the other screen? Oh, okay. Well, I can do this. I did print them out as well for you if that's easier. Uh, so this is a list of some of the nonprofit organizations that we are in cooperation with for our tiny home village. There's a total of 34 nonprofit organizations providing services to the folks in the village. Uh the build team that we have has been assembled with OM adviserss, GITC, central realators, environmental consulting solutions and alliance architects. Based on HUD's housing standard, no one should pay more than 30% of their income on rent plus 10% in utilities. So a total of 40% of their income on their housing. In Isabella County, uh 51% of our renters are paying significantly more than the 30% in their rents. Uh we have about uh 40% of the citizens in the United States that would qualify for some form of housing assistance. However, of that 40%, only 16% of the population actually receives housing

assistance. It is projected to become significantly less than the 16% based on current budgeting. Um at at this moment, MISTA has paused their voucher issuances as have most housing commissions. Uh the housing commissions that do have open weight lists are not issuing for the foreseeable future. This is a look at our map. So you can see there's a lot of red areas. So a lot of folks are needing assistance with housing. And I think that this is a really interesting number for Isabella County. So this is based on the 2022 uh community study done by ACAP. It shows that 4.2% of Isabella County residents are currently unemployed. However, we have a uh poverty income report of 23.78%. Isabella County is the highest per cap and poverty rate for the state of Michigan according to the Michigan Poverty Task Force 2023 report. IC is currently the only homeless shelter that we have in all of Isabella County with a maximum capacity of 29 individuals and there are 560 homeless individuals um in Isabella County per our last hit count so point in time. Um the Mount Pleasant Housing Commission, which is the only housing commission in Isabella County, currently has 237 families on our wait list. Uh, I probably forgot to mention I work at the housing commission here in Mount Pleasant. Uh, we have approximately 20 applications that come in per day. So, you can imagine that we're quite busy there. Um, the definition of homelessness is that uh of individuals who lack fixed, regular, and adequate nighttime residence, which includes one of the following. a place not meant for human habitation, which means that they don't have utilities accessible, or

living in a shelter, hotel, or motel paid and assisted by an organization. The definition of nearly homeless is folks that are underhoused, couch surfing, couch surfing, or illegal tenency. So, we decided to do something about this. On December 6th of 2021, at the inspiration of the community church, we came together 14 nonprofit agencies and held a conversation titled uh conversations on homelessness. The Mount Pleasant Housing or I'm sorry, the Mount Pleasant Transitions Committee was created on that date. On May 3rd of 2022, the Tiny Homes Committee held their first official meeting. At that point, I said, "Give us a year and we'll be up and running." However, it takes a lot to build a village. The transitions committee was led by Annie Sanders, the president and CEO of United Way for Grashet and Nisbella County, D. Orachek, uh, who's the executive director of ICR, and myself. Currently, our tiny homes committee consists of uh the community members that belong to community mental health, Summit Clubhouse, Community Church, Habitat for Humanity, Isabella, Citizens for Health, GIT, Shelter House, and Listening Ear. The transitions committee went on to establish three other um smaller committees. Um those committees consisted of landlord relations mentors for continued success and increasing the affordable housing stock. Our mission at Maslo's Tiny Village is to fulfill the most basic need of shelter with affordable tiny living while providing the tools and support for members to excel. We do have preferences for our programming and those are veterans, foster youth that have aged out of the foster care system, elderly and disabled folks and our phase two will be single parents. Uh just a

few statistics because I obviously love my numbers. Uh there are 456 Michigan homeless veterans. The national uh percentage of homeless population is 12.9%. Foster youth that have aged out of the foster care system are uh generally 40% uh homeless by the age of 21, 20% immediately at the age of 18 and they are make up 50% of the entirety of the homeless population. Single parents have an 85% likelihood of becoming homeless during their parenting. We named it Maslo's because we were focused on the hierarchy of needs. Um the bottom two foundational uh needs in the pyramid are um physiological and safety and we know that this village can satisfy those needs to creating personal success. We have two different homes that we're um wanting to put on the village. Uh phase one is 40 micro houses. These are single and dual dwelling units approximately 120 square foot. The average cost for the shell is around $2,500. Estimated after putting heat, air conditioning, sink, multi-function toilet, and insulation with electric is around $5,000. Um, comparable builds are the pods that you may have seen a few other housing or I'm sorry, tiny house villages creating. Uh those pods are about $20,000 and they come without a toilet or a sink. So no water functioning uh in those buildings. The durability of both is approximately 10 years. These are the conceptual renderings. Uh we had consulted with a former GIC instructor, Aaron Kmiller. Uh Erin has worked on several different

tiny home organizations including zoning uh a national tiny homes relation board and now we have our fabulous Megan Williams who is collaborating with CMU uh interior design students on our draw. Uh the micro house on wheels which will be a micro of the micro will be available for folks at the end of this semester. So people will be able to actually go into our micro on wheels, see what it is that we're talking about facilitating. Phase two will be the actual tiny homes which are approximately four bed, a max potential of eight people. Uh the family style shed is kind of what we use to describe this home because it's you've seen probably on HGTV. They have a lot of let's convert a shed. We're not converting sheds. These are real builds. Um, but it's a pretty good concept for you to understand what we're talking about here. Uh, family homes will be equipped, of course, with a small kitchen, uh, bathroom, electric, heat, air conditioning. Uh, the average cost for the shell can range between 9 and $16,000 depending on where we are uh, in our inflation and and price structuring for build costs. Uh, estimated after the additions would be approximately uh, $20,000. So, we're talking about a total of 50 homes on the entirety of the property. If we were to build apartments without worrying about purchasing a property, doing all of the zoning, or any of the utility installation, a modest estimate would be $4.3 million. The standard tiny home is approximately 550 square ft, which is reported to take 17% of uh uh single family dwellings uh utilities. Ours with the micro are only 120 square ft. So you can imagine the difference in the consumption. Our goal is to lessen the

carbon footprint uh create an affordable construction and decrease the transmission of pests and diseases. We have consulted uh with our partners who work through DV as well as homeless shelters to make sure that our build is traumainformed. Uh you can see some of the features of what we're trying to accomplish with a communal style bath house and kitchen and garden. Uh we are looking at affordable program payment agreements. So much like the shelter agreements, all the folks that are involved in the housing in the village um will be paying a portion on that program. Uh the mailing address is one of the key things that we focus on often when we're talking to folks in the community. The important thing about a mailing address is that you cannot gain employment, education, health care, social security, or disability benefits. Um you can't even get on a wait list for housing assistance without an address. And so we want to make sure that our folks have all of the assets and utilities that they need in order to create that success for their themselves and their families. We are talking about a gated property. Uh there will be security and locking doors. Uh the doors themselves will lock. If you have spoken to anyone that has been through homelessness, there's a lot of trauma when it comes to that and a lot of their possessions are often taken from them. This gives them the security that their belongings are safe and that they can heal and that is our number one goal. Uh minimal materials will lessen the cost for us to be able to establish our community. We are looking into alternative energy sources such as solar which is being done by the Detroit Tiny Homes Village. Um but that is a plan for the future. Uh the recipients must be referred by a partnering nonprofit

agency. So when they come into the village, we are not taking direct applications. They are coming in with a plan for their personal success. They've been assessed by a nonprofit agency that is looking through what are the causes that have led us to this homeless situation and how can we make sure that those things are not repeated in the future. Um the wraparound services will include things like financial literacy, healthcare, um employment training, education, whatever it is that they need, very much like the Salvation Army's pathways of hope, uh case management. Our goal is independence, healing, and long-term self-sufficiency. It's estimated that a community saves approximately four $40,000 per year on incarceration and medical costs per homeless individual according to the National Alliance uh to end homelessness when there is some form of shelter being provided. Transitional housing has an 86% success rate in ending homelessness according to HUD. The majority of the housing first studies have found that transitional housing, housing that is more stable than a congregate shelter, not adequate for long-term residency, is the key to unlocking the door to long-term self-sufficiency. There are many, many sustainable business models for the tiny home projects. Uh we are currently working under the guidance of the state of Michigan's campaign to end homelessness for accessible building plans. There are over 800 tiny home villages in the United States with over 10,000 tiny homes nationwide. So, we're not reinventing the wheel. We're just creating su successful um programming with these villages. Here are a few of my favorite examples of tiny home villages. In the top lefthand corner, you'll see Nichollsville Union in Seattle, Washington. They currently have 700 homes. They're in partnership with their

local government. They have democratic rules. So, the members actually volunteer for the cleaning and the safety. Uh next to that, you'll see cottages at Hickory Crossing. This one is specifically created to service our veterans. It's a beautiful design. Uh they have a very tight-knit community. They offer medical treatment and reintegration services. Right underneath that, you'll see Square One Villages in Eugene, Oregon. They currently have six villages. uh and the high school students through their tech um department are the ones that both create and build these tiny houses. And then next to that on the bottom lefthand corner, you'll see Community First in East Austin, Texas. I had the privilege of visiting them actually in April of 2023. It was an incredible experience. Uh they have 51 acres, 500 tiny homes, they have gardens, they have a store with art and homemade tools, and also an Airbnb. So if you get a chance, they have somewhere you can stay while you're visiting. The lowincome housing institute is just an incredible example of folks that really want to help and do good in their community. We uh spoke with them on the phone in October of 2024. Uh Matthew, their senior construction project manager, shared some of the designs that they have. Uh the code of conduct and uh the list of figures for their builds. Uh you can see that they have diversified their portfolio in creating both tiny homes, villages, they run apartments, they have single family homes, and they also assist their local housing commission and helping folks that are on the section 8 voucher find their stable housing. Great. Um so tiny solutions homelessness healthc care and the tiny home movement in the American Midwest is a paper that was written by a college student last

year. Uh in that paper he published that 100% of the organizations that create tiny homes are nonprofits. 60% are faith uh based. 30% are specifically for veterans and 40% are specifically for folks that are chronically homeless. uh one of the the best set of numbers I think that uh reflects an average of transitional housing is that about 3 to six months is 33% of the folks that live in that transitional housing. Then you've got folks that are between 1 and 1 and a half years looking at about 17% and then those that are above uh a year and a half are at about uh 50%. Our estimation is that there will be a two-year max. Um we don't cut things off completely because if someone is just at that edge of creating that, you know, um personal success, we're not going to say out you go. Um but the idea is that approximately two years would be the maximum for most of our visitors. You can see some of the logos for the tiny homes that are both in Michigan and Ohio. They are in various stages of creation and establishment. Uh some of them have been around for a little while. Some of them are just working on their startup. So there are approximately 37 36 tiny home villages minus Maslo's tiny homes in the uh Midwest that's represented there. Our current building efforts are focused on this particular plot of land. Uh it is close to employment, grocery, uh business routes. They actually already have a bus route that is set up for this particular property. We've had environmental survey phase one completed and we have done the topographical survey. We're entering our contract with OM. Uh there are 13 acres, 50 plain tiny

houses. And these are some of the conceptual drawings and um creations that we've had from the GIT students. Kind of what that village will look like. Phase three is the Isabella County Community Center. Our goal is to um allow folks throughout all of Isabella to be able to access the services that the villagers are able to access as well with a group of 34 nonprofit organizations. Sometimes if you're looking for assistance, you're traveling all over town here, there, and everywhere. Just criss-crossing paths, filling out multiple applications. Sometimes those applications are incredibly burdensome and confusing. We want to make sure that folks have the ability to fill out those applications for education, for assistance, whatever it is that they need in Isabella County. We want to establish a place for them to be able to come, kind of like a one-stop shop. Um, we also would like for this to be a meeting place. It's my understanding that a lot of our local nonprofits are renting out um smaller offices and different facilities to make themselves accessible to our general public. We want to make sure people know where the home is for these service provisions. And also we have um contacted different organizations that would like to do certification classes. For example, the child care coalition. Uh they do certification for folks to do child care, which we have a great need for in our area. So being able to have that place where we could hold those classes and allow folks to know what days and times they can come and sign up, I think will be incredibly beneficial to our community. Uh this is just a small list of some of our contributors. Uh we currently have 28 tiny home piggy banks all throughout town. Huggy Bear and Pickard Street

Sicko have been phenomenal in their fundraising efforts. Every time we go to pick up for the tiny bank, they are full. Um they are really excited about the micro on wheels um and displaying that and having more community involvement. I do want to say a huge thank you to cleaning solutions who are currently working on um classes for cleaning and sanitation for the folks that live in the village should they need that assistance. Um and also Dr. Zar and the colleagues at Prism Real Estate who have offered a 10% return on the purchase price for us to use towards the build of the tiny homes. We are in conversation with consumers and DTE for grants for funding and um for heating and cooling. We currently have established a fiscal sponsorship agreement with United Way for our 501c3. Um they take all the money, they do all the reporting, they create all the transparency. And that's a little plug for our donations to our tiny homes, our texts, our email, our um Facebook, all of the ways that you can possibly contact us. So, thank you so much for having me here tonight. I have brought on with me as well for the super technical questions. I am not an engineer and I am not an architect. I am a houser. So, if you have any questions, I am more than happy to take them. And you know, my favorite part of all of this is the conversation. So, please let me know what you got. Uh, thank you first for all the work you've done with this. I know this is a long time coming. I was very happy to see when you guys got that most recent grant funding that came through for was it 1.1 million? Uh, 1.1 was the entirety of the rural prosperity. So, we got 35,000. So, how are you guys doing

when it comes to funding now when it looking at So, we are unable to uh apply for any grants specifically for the purchase of the property until the zoning is done. All of those grants require that we have a purchase by date and the only way that we can assure when that purchase will be is to have that zoning completed. Okay, great. Thank you. Thank you. I didn't catch what the proposed location is. So, it's right there on the corner of Jennifer and Jeffrey Lane, right there behind Hunter's Ale House. Thank you. I'm talking about um just the different demographics you're looking to serve. First, veterans, foster, youth, elderly, and single. Do you guys have an idea now just looking at the current home homeless population kind of who fits in that demographic? I mean, they're all groups that really need big help. You know, you can see it when you're out and about. I remember walking around and seeing you don't have to go deep into the parks in our district to see the people that are out there struggling trying to survive. I guess I'm just wondering on like when you see this envisioning like what regardless of the preferences, where do you think this will be serving most? Do you think it'll be serving single parents, veterans? Is are there enough veterans out there that you might find yourself with the majority of these spots filled up by maybe just one type of demographic? I would say that with% of the homeless population involving uh kiddos that have aged out of the foster care system that there is a strong likelihood that there will be a good portion. [Music] Um, I think probably second would be the elderly, disabled, working in the housing commission. Those four specific preferences are the majority of the folks that we see applying that need assistance. So, this is kind of based around what you guys are already seeing in the community now. Oh, great. Thank you. So, just in looking at the renderings

that you have here, which I know are not set in stone, um, with elderly and disabled as a big demographic, are you really focusing on accessibility? Because when I'm looking at the pictures, it doesn't I'm I have a very close family member that uses a wheelchair every day, and it's easy to overlook things unless you're with someone all the time that needs those things to be correct for accessibility. So, as I'm looking at the pictures, I'm just going like, but are those just examples, but you're really focusing on Okay, good. So, those are just examples. We do have friends at Disability Network that'll obviously be consulted um when we do our last renderings. Um and also being that I work at the high-rise downtown. You know, the folks that we service are always elderly and disabled there. And so, consideration for their special needs most especially um and the drug and then planning will be a top priority for sure. Good. I guess as a lot of people probably don't realize ADA doesn't always mean easy or accessible. It's the bare minimum. So yeah, um when something's created specifically to help people in that demographic, you need to be able to utilize it. So thank you. 100% agree. So one of the things you said was that um recipients have to be uh referred by a partnering a agency. So how does how does that work exactly? How does how does a someone who is in this situation get in in introduced into this program? So, our goal is very specifically to serve Isabella County. Uh the majority of the folks that are currently homeless have some sort of touch base with a nonprofit organization that we have uh here in town. And so, we would make sure that you know those f I all the time get phone calls from the nonprofit organizations at the housing commission. Do you have anything available? Do you know anyone that has something available? And what I did make sure to also express to the trustees is that because I work in the housing commission, I have a little special kind of carved out um area in that when we

think about how long it takes for folks to go from transitional housing into stable housing, I have all those contacts, right? I know all the housing commissions here in the state of Michigan that are are uh have availability or a little or no wait for their public housing. So even though we're not currently issuing vouchers, the availability for the public housing is still there. Okay. Thank you. Um you talked a little bit about uh what there would be a cap for residents, what their structure I guess I wanted a little more info on like what the structure would be for people that are referred in. What are their type of payments that they're looking for to be able to be because I I know like right now I mean housing is so hard to come by. There's a lot of people that are housed but like very, you know, in a very precarious way or being able to, you know, maybe pay their rent but not pay for the the needs they have in a day-to-day basis. I guess I'm just wondering like, you know, what type of financial cost is coming to the residents that are being served there versus what's going to be able to be covered by grants and other things that are coming in from the private sector. We're definitely not um charging rents. I rents to the general public because that's kind of a a an understandable concept, but it's actually programming fees. So, they'll be contributing back into the village very similar to what the um income rates look like for HUD. So, with HUD, if you're a participant in the program, you pay a minimum of $50 and then as your income goes up, so does your contribution to the programming. And so we will very similarly be looking at a system like that. Um we will be setting aside a portion of that uh money that they're paying in to go to their moving costs for their future home. Um so security deposits and first month's rent, things like that. That's great. Thank you. Appreciate that. I appreciate

a little clarity in that there. That's what I'm here for. This is my favorite part. So please any questions you have, I'm happy to answer. Well, it obviously you mentioned uh meeting with the trustees and now you're here with the planning commission. Ideally, what would be your timeline from start to finish before this would uh be realized? Yesterday. Yesterday. Um I do I am very well aware that this process can take between six and 12 months. I'm hoping that with the stellar team that we have assembled um that are going to be working with us through the PUD process that we're not going to be looking at the 12 month but more closer to the six month that is definitely the goal. Okay. Thank you. the um the building that you I believe said was intended to be a community center that's currently it was a medical building medical offices. Is it vacant? Uh half of it well let me take that back. Half of it has been occupied for a very long time since this establishment and the partners are now um doing I think two or three times a week. The other doctor is having appointments in the other side of the building at this point. Okay. But the the plan is to is to uh purchase the building or have it be part of the the complex eventually. Yes, that's that's an expensive purchase and we know that this is going to be successful and it's important to make sure that the community sees that success before purchasing an additional portion to this programming. Other questions? You know, I have one last one. Um, you talked a little bit. You talked a little bit about how, you know, um I think it with any type of

development like this, it is how do you connect this new development coming in with the rest of the community there. You also talked a bit about how um security I guess and priority of the possessions. Um is it it you so it's envisioned as a closed gated community over the 15 acres like from end to end or gating around the housings? gating specifically around the housing. Getting specifically around the housing while the the grounds would be open. So, if you look at the property, um if you're looking head on, I am terrible with straightening, so forgive me for taking a sneak peek at um my road there on Isabella Road. If you were looking directly at the property, uh there's kind of a a little wild tree area. So, we envisioned something like a community garden that all participants in Isabella County can come to can get vegetables and fruit and interact with our larger community. Um, as well as uh the folks that are in the village. Oh, great. Yeah, because you you want to see them being able to build a community where they feel safe and feel open, but also I guess I I think of the optics of seeing people that are trying to reenter society being fenced off. Well, and I do want to be I want to be very clear. Um, early on there was a discussion that the tiny homes would be a re-entry program. That is not what we're doing. Um, we are taking folks that are homeless and nearly homeless and we're making sure that they have that housing and those tools to succeed. I have great friends at Michigan Works. They are fabulous at reintegration programming and I think that we should leave to the experts the things that they're an expert at. uh with us also wanting to make sure that we've got, you know, those 10 homes for families, we want to make sure that our kiddos are also safe within those uh gated area. Definitely. Thank you. Excellent.

I guess I'll ask one more question that just occurred to me. So, one of the things you would want, I think, in any sort of residential setting like that would be uh convenient access to to like food and things of that nature. With with Kroger having closed, there's really no full service supermarket in that part of town. Walmart. Aldi. So, we've got Okay. Oh, okay. Yeah. Aldi. The Target. the ones the ones I don't show. Okay. Okay. So, there is Walmart. Okay. So, there is there is in that area within walking distance. There's even Kitty Corner to the property that we're talking about in urgent care. Um, so being able to get that health care that's right there. And there's a gas station right down the road too with the Dunkin Donuts. Yeah. Well, we don't want to live on donuts, but says you. So, so it's so it it's it's actually a good location based on the types of things that are in the area. When we look at establishing low-income housing, for example, one of the highest scoring uh portions of that application is walkability. And the walkability uh is just incredible from this point. There's also we need to be real about it. There is a thing called nimi. So, not in my backyard, right? A lot of folks that are in established neighborhoods tend to not want to see something like this. Well, good news. Uh we're in the perfect spot to not be seen as much uh to offend those folks that don't want to uh have to visually partake. However, um I think that we're going to be very pleasantly surprised at the success of this program and how much our community is want is going to want to take part in the activities that we have planned.

As you can tell, I'm very excited about it. So, okay. Thank you for your work on it. Yeah. Thank you. Yes, super. Thank you so much for having a long time getting to this point. Oh my goodness. And I am I am not the world's most patient person. Um I won't pretend that I am. So I'm just very proud of the work that my district has done to get to this point. So thank you for having me. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. All right. Um so we'll continue with our uh regular kind of monthly uh reports. Next item is Commissioner Thering, board of trustees. Yes, sir. Thank you. Um, one of the things that we did on the April 9th at the April 9th meeting is we uh had the first reading of an a proposed amendment to the private road ordinance and that was um due to Mr. Nanny working with uh someone talking about a private road and the end turnaround. So I think right now there's more of a culde-sac option and that seemed to be it and in the conversation kind of discovered that well there's two two other options a Y option or a T option. So um we got a chance to look at all that and um I actually am very pleased to see that you know Mr. Nanny and his staff, they working with applicants and recognizing ways that we can improve and um putting their best foot forward in that. So um that's we had our first reading on that. Along with that

uh the board of trustees received an email from a school board member from the Central Christian Academy. they are looking for um property to build their school. And their letter that was sent to us was a very nice letter that was thanking Mr. Nanny and his staff for being very helpful and informative in their decision making as they work towards finding a place to build their school. So, I wanted to bring that up for the board to hear. Uh thank you, Mr. Nanny. and uh it was very noteworthy. So that's really at this point that's all I have for you. Okay. Are there questions for Commissioner Thering on board of trustees related matters? Okay. Well, thanks for the update. Appreciate it. Uh next item. I don't know if they've uh met since last month, but we have Commissioner McDonald updates from ZBA. Nothing. Okay. Um and then next item is our community and economic development monthly report that you got in your packet from uh from Rodney. Uh that u is a compendium of everything that's going on in the township virtually. And so we always pause and give commissioners an opportunity to ask any questions that they might have on anything you might have gleaned in the monthly report.

questions. Okay. Well, if you do have questions, you can always uh you can always ask you can always ask send Rodney an email or or however you want to do it. Um any other reports or correspondence that anyone is aware of that needs to come before us? Okay. If not, then we'll move on. So, at every planning commission meeting towards the beginning of the meeting, usually sooner than this, but um we have a public comment section where individuals are invited to address the planning commission on items which are not on tonight's agenda. Meaning if we have like tonight, if we have a public hearing, that public hearing has its own public comment se section. So, this is not for that. This is if individuals want to address the planning commission on items that are not on tonight's agenda, they're welcome to do so at this time. We ask you to come to the podium, give us your name and address for the minutes, and limit your comments to three minutes. Uh this public comment is open at 7:45. Okay. Uh So, seeing none, we'll see that we'll assume that folks are here for other purposes. There'll be an extended public comment later in the meeting. We'll go ahead and close that back up. Extended or the uh public comment is also closed at 7:45. So, we are ready to move on to our new business. The first item is a special use permit application for short-term rental housing at 1220 South Eli's Way. And uh so we'll start with an introduction from uh it's going to be Peter this time and then uh we'll move

to the public hearing and our deliberation. Evening commission. Um so we have in the past we had um in previous zoning ordinance we didn't have much language um on these what we call short-term rentals. Airbnb is popular company. So they were added in the new zoning ordinance and it was a while until we got an application for one. With that one, we went a little bit slower with the commission because it was first time. So we had kind of an introduction period and then we went with the application. Uh since we've kind of done that, uh we decided we're working with an applicant here. Similar kind of situation. uh where we became aware that they were operating and they wanted to continue to operate and they wanted to of course seek um approval so they could operate uh uh legally in the township. So I met with the uh applicants uh quite a few times uh before the application period and um making sure that their application was complete and uh had everything that would uh suffice a a good application. Um the part that we are looking at today that we're going to focus on is the special use permit. With the special use permit, it is required to have a minor site plan, but that minor site plan is approved administratively. And so I will be approving that site plan post approval of the uh special use permit. However, because it is required, uh it is there as a guide for you in your review. So, you can see how they have the site laid out and set up for the special use permit. Uh this is a location of the property is 1220 uh Eli's Way. Uh there is uh within your packet um kind of an old survey of the

property. their property is set quite a bit off of uh the road and they have a driveway uh that basically leads back uh to the property there. Um and so they're not directly on what you call a main road uh in the township, but they're kind of bit off the way there. And um so as you can see um on the uh for example on the site plan uh site plans require um you know showing a sidewalk. Now there is no show there is no sidewalk on a main road and it's just where their property actually abs. So during the review of this uh application uh you have the report uh that was done and in it the only sections uh that were found that where the applicant can conform instead of does conform there are items that they simply can't um complete at this time such as you know uh zoning zoning permit approval post um approval of the special use u final inspection by the rental inspector and so on. But during the review of the application, it was found that all items conformed both in section 14.3J and and 6.58 which is specific uh to the short-term rental um use and that is what we call uh what is popularly known as Airbnb and a host of other uh companies that now uh you can use for that type of use.

If you have any questions uh for me while I'm up here with the application. Peter, did you say this is the first application you've gotten for a B&B or for an Airbnb or just one that's a multi multi-dwelling on a single lot? So, this would since we've had the uh the new use short-term rental in the zoning ordinance, something that we actually regulate. This is the second time that we've had an application come through planning commission. What's the actual regulation right now that you enforce? I'm not familiar with the actual like where limits are on Airbnb and stuff like that. So, w within the ordinance um we have um section 6.58 is what actually regulates short-term rentals. It would be in section three uh where we have our different zoning districts and they show you what is uh divided between permitted uses and special uses and the short-term rental is listed as a I believe a special use in all of the residential districts and agricultural district. So anyone that's thinking of operating one would need to get approval. Yes, you guys. All right, great. Thank you. But provided that they meet all the conforming requirements, there's there's no uh limits to how many people could set up uh short-term rentals. What do you mean by how many people? I think he's talking about a per capita. Some areas you're seeing, especially like I know in Gaylord, they they've done a lot to try to limit Airbnbs because they see housing scarcity coming in. And I know it's something that's going to creaturing more on on us, you know. So, we just heard from a previous speaker talking about the people that are having trouble getting rents, getting housings, you know. I guess he was just wondering, is that what you were trying to say? Is there there any type of cap that comes in when it comes

to like how many different ABS can be opened right now? The the ordinance does not have any any caps. U we there there are not that many units in the township. Um the uh certainly if it became a challenge, if it became a problem if that this planning commission would be the first to be aware of that because these we would have a large increase in the number of requests. Uh but at this point it's not not issue. It certainly is an issue in parts of the state that are tour tourism oriented. Gaylord, you mentioned Traverse City is another one. And along Lake Michigan, Lake Shore, there's there number of communities that either prohibited them or severely restricted because they're finding entire neighborhoods are becoming uh short-term rentals. Is is there something that we as the planning commission can do to remedy that before it becomes a problem? Well, I I certainly uh be proactive about it. If you wish, you could add uh you could amend the ordinance to add standards that that limit or space them apart. For example, for group daycare homes, this is out of the state act for group day take daycare child child daycare homes. Uh there's a provision that that allows the local government to require a minimum separation between group child daycare homes that that can care for up to now up to 14 children potentially. Um and uh lot it requires be certain distance apart potentially the community can also not not require them uh we could do something similar. That's one way to to say that you have to be so far apart between them. Uh or we could set a cap that similar to the the uh the don't use marijuana facilities some at least in the law not not in Mount Pleasant but as things are

currently but but in the law government could set a cap on the number of licenses they'll grant similar here we could have a cap in our ordinance and said once we reach x number of special use permits no new one be approved unless something changes. Uh I I don't recommend it at this point. We we really we're not seeing a rush. We're not seeing uh concentration of these in any way. Uh that would concern me to uh to suggest that that I think restriction like that is warranted right now. The other thing I will say though is that your special use permit standards allow you to determine whether it's appropriate to grant the special use permit. Uh if you look at this the general standards that are in in your report uh the uh uh the the uh third item down is the specialies will be designed, constructed, operated and maintained in a manner compatible with adjacent uses surrounding area the intent of the zoning district. Um that that that language sometimes uh you see ordinances instead of saying compatible with the city were harmonious. Um the idea is if if you have a proliferation of these obviously it would not in a neighborhood in in a in an area that would not necessarily be compatible with the character that zoned nor the character of that area uh as a residential community. So you you have the ability on on a case-by case basis to look at that. Okay. I I was I was worried about that because I know that one of our responsibilities is is to make sure that uh we approve everything that conforms with all of the ordinances and the uh the zoning regulations as is and um you shouldn't be showing bias uh based on that. So, thank you. Other questions for Peter while he's up there? I guess just going back to these

just get a little bit more clarity going forward on these. So like it's self-reporting when people apply for these. It's like there's not like um you know just you're saying like you're not seeing second application we've ever had since the ordinance come in. I didn't know like necessarily what the standards are expectations when people are like purchasing new property. They happen to state what they're what their use is going to be for. If someone does decide, say if someone local owns a couple houses, decides to turn two of them for rental properties into short-term rentals or something like that. Is there any what's the what's really requiring them to come forward for an application? Like what's the kind of uh checks, I guess, in that balance? Can you share how how this one came to us? Well, and so this one uh um came to us uh um much like the other one where it was discovered um you know Airbnb that was being used. Uh I did have one there was a third one that was discovered and they actually decided that they did not want to do it any longer and they chose to not um apply it. it wasn't worth the hassle for them anymore and um and they put it in writing and and affidavit and and basically that I haven't they're not doing it. So um there hasn't been um a huge outcry. I've even had to speak to um you know a person looking at property. I've had people ask can I use this for you know an Airbnb? and I let them know the what the use is and what the process is and um haven't had anybody actually then do it but I let them know up front that there is a process to do it. Great. Awesome. Thank you. Anything else? I mean we can always ask more later. Okay. Thank you. All right. So with that

introduction, we'll move on to the public hearing. Uh all special use permits come with a public hearing. That is the public's opportunity to uh address the planning commission on the proposed application. We want to give everybody who wants to speak an opportunity to speak. So once the public hearing is open, we'll ask people to come to the uh podium, give us your name and address for the minutes, and uh limit at least your initial comments to three minutes. Once everybody who's had an opportunity to speak has spoken, if someone wants to be recognized for additional comments, u we will do that. Um, please address your comments to the planning commission. And so the the public hearing on special use permit application 25-02 is open at 7:58. Hi, my name is uh Dan Slucky. This is my wife Randy and our son Matthew. And first of all, I would like to uh apologize profusely. We were thinking that this meeting was tomorrow. So, um we live uh we live off of River Road, a little bit uh east of Meridian Road. And um about 25 years ago, my wife's parents uh they were they had problems with their health and uh they didn't exactly know what to do. So we said, "Okay, let's let's uh you know, we tried to help them out. So what we did is we actually uh had a house built uh went through the process here and uh they uh they lived with us for 10 years and then they passed away. And uh it's it's uh I think did they did

everyone get the pictures things like that? And um when we had first uh thought about having a Airbnb, my wife called uh I don't know how many times you want to talk a little bit about that, honey. Yeah, I called a few times just to see like what's the law or whatever, what would we need to do and at that time there was no ordinance. And so they said, "What?" And uh out of sight, out of mind. And here we are a number of years later. And we were talking to our accountant uh this um uh this spring and he had he had brought something up on another matter. So it would made us think. And so Randy called uh the office here and that's when we that's when we started the process there. So, um, is there any other input in any any questions that we can answer? Well, this is all news to us. All kind of new. I I I forgot to add in my little introductory remarks about the public hearing that the applicant normally gets their own separate opportunity to address the planning commission. You don't have that in the agenda this time, but usually we hear from the applicant separately. There are there isn't anybody else here, but we want to make sure we're this this is not intended to be a back and forth. This is just intended to be the public telling us any opinions that they might have on the application. So, let's hold off on on asking you any questions at this point. Very good. So, are there any other public comments on the application? Is there's nobody online, I assume. Did we receive anything in writing? Okay. So, no written comments. So, sec second call for public

comments. I'm again keeping my ear on the parking lot. I don't hear any screeching tires. There's nobody trying to get in. We want to give, you know, anybody who wants to speak on any public matter like this the opportunity to speak. Last call for public comments on the application. Okay, hearing none, we'll go ahead and close that back up. Um, I guess let the record show that no other public comments were offered. U, the one that was offered was from the applicant. So, uh, public hearing on SUP25-02 is closed at 802. And so now, um, it says commission review of the application, but you've heard from the applicant. So, uh, it is open for questions from the commission if any commissioners have questions for the for the applicant. So, you've been in operation for a bit since your family died. Can you tell us a little bit about what it's been like running it? How often you usually guys get the microphone is here. He He's been trying to push you up there since he stood up. I could see I can see I've been here before. Can you tell me a little bit just about the business and how it's been? Um, well, we've had um some pretty great success to be honest. It's tucked back in the woods and usually people that come are from the city so it's very low key and quiet and people seem to like that. Um we

really haven't had any trouble with the guests to speak of. Meet a lot of people and they review us. We review them and Airbnb takes care of taxes and all kinds of stuff. So, it's been Are you Hi. Hi. I talked on the phone several times. And other than that, questions maybe. I have one question. Do you currently reside at this property or Yes, you do. Okay. Thank you. Okay. So we're there. It was a grandmother's suite plant. It was a grandmother's suite basically and um yeah live with us for 10 years and and then my husband retired and we thought oh what do we do now? You know so it was a source of income for us. I'm a retired minister and one of the individuals within the congregation said was a doctor and he says you really you really should think about an Airbnb. Our kids also said that our three older children and uh so we were hesitant uh just because we didn't know what an Airbnb was and what it but um we uh we start we started the process with them and it's a it's pretty good organization and uh we've had um we've had like Randy said it's it's it's been very very good. As a matter of fact, we have a a person coming tomorrow that they were here last year because they lost a member in the family. That's what a lot of people they grow up in Mount Pleasant, they leave, and they come back for reunions or funerals and things like that. And we've had uh multiple people uh repeat just uh because it's quiet,

see a lot of deer, see a lot of turkey, you know, those types of things. And they're not used to it, you know. So, it's been a it's been a good experience for them and it's been a very good experience for us and we'd like to continue and we like people. So, I'll say from my side over here, it sounds like you guys are really utilizing space that you have building a community in there. I think a lot of what we were talking about earlier for board members is worrying about hoarding or grabbing, you know, houses around it was when when people hear of Airbnbs, you know, people coming in and trying to grab other houses and turning into like you guys are using a space that you've had for your family to accommodate towards building and opening up for other people here. That sounds like a great thing. And if we're not there, like sometimes we have our other kids live in Florida, South Carolina, we just block it off. So it's not like somebody's not there. We're always overseen. Right. So Airbnb boasts that they are a guest favorite with a rating of 5.0 and 224 reviews. So I' I'd say whatever you're doing, it seems to be going well. Yeah. Think we have our chairs for the new Airbnb commission, right? It's been enjoyable. Is what you have considered one unit? It is. 25 years ago, we had to have it that way with the, you know, they didn't want a duplex or anything like that. So, we have, my wife is an artist and so we have a studio. Her studio is right there and it's locked and I went through the process to get it. Mhm. So, it's basically one one house with a uh grandmother suite. Yeah. What I meant though by one unit was the part the part that's the Airbnb is that one unit, in other words,

is it one entity renting it at a time? Like, would there be multiple rentals? Is it sectioned out for multiple rentals at once or is it only one one? Okay. But it could be. I mean, you've got one, two, three. It looks like three bedrooms. Three. Yes. Yeah. So, it could be like a decent sized family or something like that. It's usually It's usually uh one family, two people. A lot of people one, they just want to get away or they have a conference here at CMU or something like that. They don't want to do the hotel thing. And uh but it's usually one family or uh Yeah. And it's blocked off from our house. We have the unit and then there's an art gallery and a laundry room and those rooms are blocked off. So it even in with the sound it's it works well. It it is a log home also and the walls are 8 in thick. So we don't hear them. They don't hear us. Soundproof. Nice. Are you a ceramic artist? No. Just Okay. No, but there is one nearby. I know. Okay. Yeah. Like right down the like right down the road on Meridian where the Les live. Yes. Yeah. No picture framing and artwork. Other questions? Okay. Well, you're welcome to have a seat. We're gonna Did something else you want to add? Just if I could say something. Yeah, please. When I first started the process of like gosh, we have to do something, you know, I first spoke with Rodney, terrific, encouraging and upbeat and I was just very impressed with that. And

then somebody came to inspect, help me Tim. Tim and he was terrific. Went through the whole place and gratefully we didn't have to do anything according to him. So, and by the way, and by the way, he said it's the this is the best job he's ever had. Yeah. So, we got to know him pretty good. And then Pete was marvelous. He bent over backwards and I must have called him five, six times, came over three times just to get everything right. And you did superb job. Thank you. Well, that's warm and fuzzy. Nice. Okay. Well, thank you very much. And if we do have if we do have further questions, you're not going anywhere. So, we'll be able to ask those. We'll move on to um commission uh commission deliberation and action. So, this item is before us. You have the report from Peter. Um, in uh starting on page 56 of your packet, it lists the standards for special use permit [Music] approval. And uh for the uh for the standard one and so typically we at least look at each one of those and uh you know commissioners have the opportunity to speak up if they have any concerns. Um, so in terms of doing our our due diligence, um, so again, I'm starting on page 56 of your packet. Um, I'll mention each of the criteria and any commissioner jump in please if you have any concerns at all. Uh, proposed land use is identified in section three as a special use in the zoning district. that

conforms. Um the location, design, activities, processes, materials, equipment and operational conditions of the special use will not be hazardous, detrimental or injurious to the environment or the public health, safety, or general welfare by reasons of traffic, noise, vibration, smoke, fumes, odors, dust, glare, light, drainage, pollution, or other adverse impacts? Hopefully not. Okay. Uh, special use will be designed, constructed, operated, and maintained in a manner compatible with adjacent uses, the surrounding area, and the intent of the zoning district. Um where determined necessary by the planning commission, the applicant has provided adequately for any restrictions on hours or days of operation, minimization of noise and screening improvements or other land use buffers to ensure land use compatibility and minimize adverse impacts. So I mean it's a it's a re it's a residential use. It's just they're it's someone else is paying extra to stay there, but it's not a doesn't have its own particular impacts really. But uh any concerns from folks? Uh the special use location and character is consistent with the general principles, goals, uh objectives and policies of the adopted master plan. I didn't pull that see the particular location what is the land use of that

location. So this is off off of river between Lincoln and Meridian on the south side of river. Yeah. How is it closer to Meridian? Okay. So, it's probably in that rural preservation area. Okay. Mr. Chairman, I'm I'm happy to go line by line if you'd like, but I'm also prepared to make a motion if I can. I understand. You know, commissions change over the years. I've gotten hacked for not doing this. So, I just want to make sure I'm I'm, you know, pleasing my my constituency here. Um, feel free. And then there's the let me just we'll finish maybe with this. There's the piece that conforms to um section 6.58. So special use can uh conforms to all applicable requirements or standards of this ordinance or other township ordinances for this use the following standard 6.58. Um so the only one that they at least township staff believes they haven't uh uh met yet is the is the uh oh no wait a minute zoning permit required. Oh, okay. Permit from the zoning administrator. What number are you looking at though? Um, well, it's number it's in number five. Okay. Still on page 56. Okay. So, short-term rental, they have to get a permit from the zoning. They they actually have u they have to actually rental certification as well. This is will probably become part of our uh housing licensing program. So there will

be an annual inspection by Yeah. And then mention mentioned the inspection at the same time Peter will verify that they're meeting the requirements for the specialies program. Okay. That's the zoning part. All right. All right. Can I ask a question about the sidewalk? Sure. I thought that in a a district this wasn't a requirement. Is it sidewalks are required everywhere? It's required to be shown on the site plan and on their site plan they chose of course in our sidewalk policy you have the items where you can request relief and they put that right on the plan. Okay. And that's something you can handle with the um minor site plan. Yes. Amendment. Okay. Okay. So you all you all read and so does do any planning commissioners have any concerns with any of the items in the special use permit uh the criteria anybody I guess I'll just say that um for this specific application I I don't see any immediate concerns um they seem like uh like they keep the uh property wellmaintained ained and and everything seem aside from essentially the paperwork that they weren't aware of. Um everything else conforms. Uh I just want to express my concerns not for this specific application but for the precedent that it sets for other future

applications. And then also to make a note uh that um I didn't do a deep dive but I just looked in our area and there are 12 plus listings for Airbnb in this area. I'm sure a lot of those are probably in like Mount Pleasant City where we don't have jurisdiction, but um there's potential for there to be unreported uh short-term rentals in Union Charter Township that we're not aware of. That's all. Yeah, I mean there always is and there that was what you know couple of them what uh I think what uh Hayes was saying um in that uh because it's largely self-reporting or like we find find out about it through the grapevine there's there's no um uh way for us to systematically go through and and uh like like verify these things. So, like like he was, I guess, insinuating that for all we know, there could be uh many more um short-term rentals in the area that uh are choosing not to report, choosing to be in violation to save on the costs of applications and certifications. Um uh just throwing my two cents in there. Yeah. Um, Ronnie, if if I may just to share a little bit, the first two that came up uh were found because we checked the Airbnb website. Okay. Okay. If if one had not started yet, but was listed there and that was the one that Peter mentioned ultimately decided not to do it because with the rental inspection, they found out they had some pretty major work that needed to be done to Gotcha. Okay, that's good. Uh, the second one followed the process and received a specialies permit. Uh, frankly, this one they you guys may have been out of town that week because uh if if there's if dates are blocked out, they don't show up. So, it may just

been a fluke that that we didn't see yours. U, but uh anyway, we're not checking it every day or anything like that, but we have Okay, that's good. And there are a number of different uh Verbbo is another one. There's several different sites that do this sort of thing. I I would not be surprised if there are some more that that are not uh that are operated that aren't unaware of these requirements or are as you said have chosen not to follow them. U they will come up. The other way they come up is through our assessor uh because uh the assessor uh the it depending on how the property is used it can change the the percentage of homestead exemption. Uh so that that comes in play as well. Okay. Thank you very much. In fact, if it were more frequent, we would see it in the community and economic development monthly report. Okay. I guess I I'm not exactly I'm not sure what I mean if if that's going on that doesn't necessarily affect how we would act on a particular proposal that's brought. But but as as someone you or somebody mentioned earlier, you know, if it reached the point where every other house wanted to be a Airbnb, then we'd have I think item four would come into play, which is is the is the special use consistent with the general principles, goals, objectives, and policies adopted in the master plan. So, we would have to adopt, we would have to, you know, lay out some groundwork through the master plan and then act on it. And I think that's going to look a lot differently if you're having an outofstate commercial buyer versus a family that's Yeah. been here for 20 years. Yeah. Although you have to again you have to justify that and you know girdge yourself for the lawsuits that will follow and all kinds of

things. All right. Any other So any other concerns from commissioners? Any other comments, thoughts? Okay. If not, we can have a motion. like to make a motion to approve the PSUP25-02 special use permit application for a short-term rental located at 1220 South Eli's Way, partial number 14-007-10-00002-05 in the northwest quarter of section 7 and in the AG agricultural zoning district finding that it fully complies with section 6.58 short-term rental housing and section 13.3.J standards for special use approval. Second. So the motion was b made by over and it was seconded by lap. Is there further discussion? Okay. Hearing none, I'll ask for a roll call vote, please. Bradshaw, yes. Haze, yes. Quadrto, yes. Lamp, yes. Wolver I yes McDonald yes Shangle yes Brown abstain motion carries okay thank you so good luck with that say hi to Dan how are you sir it's been a long time yes it has been looking just the same. Good to see you. Okay. And I won't even rule that out of order. All right. Um, let's see. Okay. So, the next item, which I'm I'm very curious to hear what this all entails, is a discussion of special use

permit and public notice requirements for federally regulated gunsmiths. Thank you. Uh this uh this is actually kind of a last minute addition to agenda. Uh gunsmiths are in Arizona or they are in special use uh in actually pretty much the same districts that the short-term bank district residential districts. Uh there can also be commercial gunsmiths. We're not we're not really talking about that at the store or Can I interrupt you? Did did they leave a bag? Yeah. Thank you for noting that. Being someone who carries one of those regularly, I appreciate when people notice when you forget yours. Yeah. Yeah. Feel like I chased him down but left the bag behind. Yeah. See, well, also you don't necessarily want to pick up other people's bags. Uh so uh what we're talking about here are are folks that have that need a a federal license as a gunsmith, but they're typically operating out of their home. Uh and they may be selling guns at gun shows. Uh they may be repairing guns in their home. Uh they may be selling out of their home, people that come to their home purchase. But these are they don't have a storefront. They're they're essentially a type of home occupation. Uh and uh right now our ordinance requires a special use permit for that. Uh which means a public hearing process. And uh we've been working with a gentleman that would like to to do this out of his home. And uh he raised a concern that uh felt was important to bring to your attention. Uh and that is that these are gunsmiths. They have firearms in their home. And what with the requirement for a special use permit, but that public hearing requirement means that that notice goes

out not only to the all the neighbors within 300 ft, but also notice goes in the newspaper, it's on a website that they are gunsmith and have guns in their home and and uh there was a concern about being a target and this this particular gentleman's has experienced this before uh elsewhere. Uh I have heard the same comment in in other communities uh that have similar requirements uh for a special use permit. U and so I just uh felt it worth bringing to your attention uh this evening that uh this this challenge with regards to this particular land use. This is a land use that is federally regulated. that they they need a license. Uh and uh and it's they're pretty carefully watched over for that that license. The they can have a spot inspection. There's a number of uh requirements they have to follow and reporting they have to make in terms of what they what they do. Uh of course, everything that they have has to be secured in their home. And uh so they're they're under a pretty tight grip already as it relates to this this license. So my I guess my my invitation to you is to consider whether we should make an adjustment in our ordinance to to eliminate the specialist permit requirement for this particular activity this particular type of home occupation activity. So that I'm happy to answer a question. So would it just be eliminated alto together or is there another avenue that could be pursued? Well, it it is really uh one or the other because uh either we require a special use permit which then requires a public hearing or we don't. Now if we don't they for example it would still be a home occupation. they would still have to follow the rules that apply to home occupation uh which limit the number of visits

uh somewhat the hours of operation u and require that the property look feel and function as a home not as a commercial business. Uh so we have pretty pretty good standards in the ordinance already for that but there would not be a a local permitting process at that point. it would simply be that they would need to follow those requirements. If we receive complaints about a site, then obviously we respond accordingly. What um other occup uh per like home occupations are there that require a special use permit that that you're aware of or is this the only one? Uh well our ordinance uh ordinance has a list of home occupations that are are simply allowed uh and they're things like home offices architect doctor planning consultant for many years I've had my own home office consulting world u other consultants uh petitions nail care there's there's a number of things that can be done uh simply as on occupation uh that doesn't require any any action. Uh so that that there is a provision of the ordinance basically says that if if a proposed home occupation is not on that list that's in the ordinance, it requires a special experience. So essentially anything else does uh does require the gunsmiths are actually listed separately in the ordinance as their own uh use classification as a special use. the the the se that that section that talks about guts defense references home occupations there. So they're considered by part of home occupation, but they're actually called out separately in the U. The uh I think uh the other Oh, uh we have medical marijuana caregivers, they in our I think that's listed. Yeah.

Yeah. I think I think the other one being a special use permit uh is medical marijuana caregivers which uh is a category under the old 2008 uh medical marijuana act u that uh it's beyond simply growing your own for your own use in your home which is just a medical marijuana patient. This caregiver thing is essentially growing for other people and for a very limited number of other people under very restrict restrictive rules. rules that essentially today mean that there's almost no caregivers out there anymore. Uh but anyway, it's in our ordinance that somebody could do that as home occupation in the agricultural district with a special. So right now the only two that require these are I guess in both cases controlled substances. Would it be firearms or that are like specifically called out? Yeah. But it sound it sounds like there's a nearly infinite number that are not specifically listed as being uh generally approved that no generally not needing a special approval. Well, I I guess um let me let me rephrase what you were saying. We have a list in our ordinance that does not require any special permit. Then any other occupation not listed is assumed to require a special permit. And then gunsmiths and um these caregivers for medical marijuana are on their own must have a special permit. Right. Okay. Let me give you the list here because actually it's not a bad bad way to go. Just read it. Is there any um what is the process for someone wanting to be a gunsmith out of their home if they don't need a special permit? Do they need to come before anybody to identify the business? I mean, in terms of uh privacy, which and security, which seems to be the main issue. Um I'm just

wondering how how public that process would be. Anyway, I appreciate the uh difference between a um needing this special permit, which goes to the public um public hearing, the public hearing and all that. I'm just trying to think of what it says in this is that what that special requires an address. Correct. Is that where their concern comes from that even though it's something that's primarily done online or at gun shows that when applying for the permit residency the residency needs to do if they apply for a business they'd be doing the same thing. And isn't that published in the paper? No. Home occupations and home based limited businesses do not require any public hearing. Their applications Oh, they don't have any application even. Okay. Well, there there's an application, but it's just like a building permit for and it's approved in house. Same. So, that would be the same with this instance here where they're applying for this because So, the person came to you with concern that they would be a target. It sounds like you're wondering why like how that Well, I didn't know how public the other process was. If the other process is all in house, then that would that would be that would solve the issue for that particular I mean it it's my limited understanding that uh like the these people require an FFL uh federal firearm license and those FFL licensing that's a publicly available information is it not? I'm sure that that frame information act would probably apply to it. Of course you'd have to want to go looking for it. You'd have to go and ask. Uh it would be readily available on our website. I don't know how how uh broad of an ask you could give. I'm not aware of the federal rules related to this ATF rules for for freedom of information and individual licensing, but it's not public published in the newspaper or okay, nothing like

that. It would be just as any other public record would be requested here at the township, but I'm sure there's some ability to request the record from the ATF. U the just if I may just give you an idea here on the what's allowed is uh allowable uses uh are home offices for professionals as I mentioned uh personal services beauty barber shops animal grooming uh home office for massage therapist and that that term massage therapist is defined in the ordinance so we don't get into adult type businesses um uh music dance and arts and craft classes private tutoring for instruction for a maximum of five pupils at any given time. That is straight out of the state zoning act. Uh studios and workshops for artist, sculpture, sculptors, musicians, and photographers. And for weaving, lapidary, jewelry making, cabinetry, woodworking, sewing, tailoring, and similar crafts, uh repair services limited to watches and clocks, small appliances, computers, electronic devices, and similar small devices. And my favorite, a lemonade stand or similar similar incidental sales activity operated under adult supervision by one or more minor residents of the premises shall be permitted as a temporary home occupation provided that signage is limited to temporary signs permitted in zoning district. I can't put them on the ground my lemonade stand. I can't I can't have child with you. The child make them do the labor. Put it out. Yeah, you may have seen there have been there have been news articles about uh lemonade stands being raided, you know, that illegal business that we just didn't want wouldn't go there. So we in the ordinance can have a lemonade stand. Uh so those are the those are the specific things are allowed and then the last category is any use not specifically listed may be approved with a special use permit subject to the requirements of this section and the specialy standards.

So, a potential solution to what you're identifying is just listing a gunsmith as one of these home occupations. And what we could do, uh, if I think we would do if we because yes, we wouldn't add it to this list, uh, is to say subject to a copy of the approved ATF license we provided to the zone administrator. Something very simple. Get show just give us a copy of the license. Uh the typically this is going to come up anyway because the the ATF has a requirement for to verify local approval. Uh and uh so we're going to get a form says what what do you need to know? You know, and uh uh and so we can just simply say all we do is copy the license when it's granted. I think I think that's reasonable as as long as Yeah. we we uh have some way of of having a record but without making it uh public broadcasted. I think that's a fair compromise. I just don't have a lot of knowledge of what this entails. Like it would this person have like a stockpile of firearms in their house that they're selling and trading? seems like we're getting into some interesting territory with gun laws and I don't you know I understand that it's regulated federally as far as their licensing goes and what they have to go through to get to that point but are we just saying we're not going to have any um not overseeing in any way just or having any knowledge of just a house with a ton of firearms in they're being bought and sold. I mean, weird. You got you got to know the risks when you do when you do that kind of work. I mean, it's it's part of the job. I not not to sound not to sound callous

about it, but I mean, it's it's there's a there's a risk that go that goes along with with with every job you you do. And I think, you know, I guess I'm thinking more risk to the community and the neighborhood rather than the individual, right? And I'm I'm going off what you're saying. I'm just saying that he if he wants to continue to do this, people need to know, right? But, you know, at the same time, he should know that people need to know. So he was saying earlier that you know so one of the reasons this this came up is because of the concern about about public becoming aware and some behaving badly and wanting to break into his place and steal uh steal things whether it's steal a gun safe or whatever it might be. That's what I'm talking about. And and so that that that that creates potentially a public safety issue as those guns end up in the hands of people behave badly. Uh by not having the public notice, the notification, the hearing notice, uh this gunsmith is able to operate quietly. His guns are are still in the gun safe. They I mean, as I said, he's under some pretty strict federal requirements related to this license. Uh and uh and is subject to spot inspection. They can show up anytime during his what he calls his business hours. Uh whatever they may be, even if it's an hour a day that he says, "I'm going to be available this hour a day to do whatever I'm going to do." They can show up any day and inspect. Uh the uh so frankly, I think it's actually safer to not have the public hearing notice, right? That's the opinion that I'm trying saying. There's another side of the coin. So when you're protecting the proprietor and his home and his stockpile from the bad guys who could, you know, where know where it is and behave badly, you're also not

letting a neighborhood or community know that it's next door. Frankly, right now, anybody Yeah. There's of guns in their home. It it sounds almost like they're having a higher requirement than private gun owners. Yeah. A private collector could have hundreds of firearms in their uh residence and you would never know unless they shared that information with you. No inspection, no regulation to how they're stored. I mean, there are some regulations that are coming into effect now on like handguns and locks that have been implemented under the last, but presumably not having people coming in and out and doing business transactions. Well, I think this specifically carves out um not having Well, I mean, at least this uh what I'm what I'm reading here says that um uh no members of the public are received at the home business location. So, uh, this type of thing would be, uh, he goes to a, uh, public event, gun show, gun show, uh, receives firearms to repair, work on, um, or he buys and sells at these at these shows, but does not receive members of the public into his own home for uh, for the p purposes of buying and selling. So, the gun sale isn't happening at the home. as far as our home occupation standard that the home occupation rules do allow for some Costco visits to the home. I'm just going to say that from a zoning perspective, whatever the federal license is, that's that's federal licensing. But frankly, even if you have people coming to the home just like anybody would come to anybody's home, this this is not a it's not a situation of a uh people going in and out of CVS or Walgreens or something like that. It's a uh even in our home activation standards is a few customer visits a day. Uh that very limited activity. The idea is

that this continues to look, feel, and function as a home. U but uh even if you have people coming to the home that may be dropping off a gun for repair or purchasing a firearm, uh they still have to operate in in those same safe that same safe manner. the licensed venith does and they have to make sure the customers do too. So it's this is not something where it it creates a safety issue simply because the gunmith is in that particular Can I ask you a question? I'm I'm also struggling with this in the same I think much the same way that that she is. But the use of the term gunsmith is not that that is to distinguish it from gun dealer. No, that's simply the term our ordinance use for our ordinance uses for basically anything that falls under these federal firearm license rules. Okay. So, it doesn't it doesn't automatically imply that we're talking about somebody who repairs guns. Yeah. It could it could be somebody who repairs. It could also be somebody that solely sells it at gun shows. It could be somebody that that sells out of their home and at gun shows. Yeah. because I have, you know, I'm I'm I'm looking at this allow list of allowed uses that you read and you know, on the one hand, you know, these are the ones that were called out and you know, do we want to just start and if we throw gunsmiths in there, why don't we throw everything in there? Why is it why does that become why are these the anointed ones? And why would that one be an anointed one? If it were gunsmiths, I could see because it might fall under repair services. It maybe it even falls under under workshops, that sort of thing. When it's if it's just somebody who buys and sells, I'm not really sure

why it deserves to be anointed in that list. Well, right now it's in our ordinance. If we took it out of ordinance uh as a separate use, then essentially Peter would have to make an interpretation as to where Gunsworth would fall and he certainly could find it that it falls into a category of repairs or or something else. The challenge is even the repair item is fairly specific. Uh uh so it it would be better if we if we simply if we're going to make a change to add it to the list of allowable uses that we simply do that add it in there uh rather than than delete it from the ordinance and leave it up to the interpretations. So that that's my recommendation there is there's value in being specific where this falls. The other reason to do it is because, as I said, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, ATF does contact uh the zone administrator to find out what our rules are and and what requirements apply. And so, if we don't have it in the ordinance, essentially, every time we get a call, they have to make that interpretation. Yeah. So, it's better to have it in there simply to say, "Oh, it's right here. It's this section. This is the rule." So, my next question is then, why was it not on the original list? Was it just an oversight? Like what was the purpose in segregating those types of home businesses and these other two types of home businesses? Lemonade stands were not in the in the former ordinance and lemonade stands are not in most home occupation standards. They're there because I put it there uh as one of the items when I when I came to the township and I saw the draft of 20 of the ordinance that was adopted in 2020. uh I knew about this business with many stands and and uh and I suggested we just add it in there and it was add it was added into the graph and that you saw prior to the public hearing and it was simply because I that recognized that is something that's come up lately. It you know it used to be simply common sense that you don't go after children

for running a lemonade stand in their driveway but unfortunately we don't always live in the common sense world anymore. So it was better just put it in there and it's no issue. This is a this is a similarity. Now, I will tell you actually for the reasons you brought up, people often have concerns. When you talk about guns, people have concerns. Uh people that that uh that handle guns regularly that that uh that have guns in their home, they understand you and and respect those weapons. I I'm not one of those. I have a BB gun. Uh I my my son actually uh is a a gun collector and and he is remarkably careful. And so I I I know that world and and my children were part of that world when they when they were young, we did 4 and they did stuff with the sportsman club and all that because we wanted them to. But for me, I' I've rarely fired a gun and I don't really have any interest in having one. U but I don't have fear of it. I don't I I don't but some people do and for the reasons you said they are potentially dangerous and mishandled and I think for that reason uh it's fairly common in in ordinances that sort of the default position is make the gunsmith a special use just bringing to your attention that that because it because it came up because somebody asked uh and has has the concern just bringing to your attention that this is something we might want to consider making a change of So your suggestion would be to move it into the named home occupation items with the stipulation that the ATF certificate be submitted to the township office. Yeah, that would be my suggestion. And then they would have to follow all those home occupation statements. Could uh could we also have um something some language in there uh to uh dissuade or prevent the the the use of of or the public coming in

and um buying his like I think I think uh what what he said here is that um Commissioner Squatrio is that like yeah we don't he doesn't have a problem with um like somebody repairing uh the firearms in their home and then going to gun shows and conducting business there, but having members of the public walk in and out purchasing, buying, selling firearms um is is potentially abusable. So, is there a way that we could put language in that would say that um the allowable uses would be for like Yeah. No public members or no members of the public, sorry. We we can uh it uh it would be the only use there that would have that standard which is tough. I mean it becomes looks a bit arbitrary when you say that these others can have a certain number of public coming in that it's a general standard there that says well these others aren't potential public safety concerns though. I'm not sure that that a buyer whether somebody's bringing a gun for repair or buying a gun. I I wouldn't necessarily call them hazard to their neighbors either. The one of the things that I guess keep in mind is that gun owners are obsessively responsible people when they have because they have to be because because of concerns. Understandable. Again, these are dangerous weapons when they're misused. Uh, but my my experience in in this I I've not yet met an irresponsible gun owner in not saying there aren't any. Uh, visit Montcom County. I never been to a gun show. I mean you're on the news, but what I'm saying to you is that gun owners are uh are overly responsible with things and and

certainly in this circumstance that that federal lee is not only responsible for themselves but they're responsible for the behavior of their customer. So they are going to make sure that whoever that customer is coming to their home is going to behave correctly. So there's that element as well. they they under their their license can simply disappear um beyond whatever we may do in in terms of home occupation. I don't I don't see a value in it from that perspective. Uh but also the other challenge in anything we put in the zoning ordinance, it needs to be enforceable. It needs to be something we can consistently enforce. Um and as I say with home occupations, we we we uh we don't require a separate uh zoning permit or anything like that for a home occupation. We used to, but we don't require one uh because there was simply no need. There was no value. It didn't add value to to require a permit before somebody could have their their own home office for their consulting business. Uh uh everybody that has home occupation, we let them know what the rules are. uh we've not yet had a circumstance where we needed to tell somebody that they're violating the rules. I have in other communities as a consultant had experience with ordinance enforcement related to home occupations. So I I know that sometimes it happens but it has not happened here. U but uh the the key really is that that uh when you when you have a home occupation whatever the rules are that apply we need to be able to enforce them. And in this particular case, it it's going to be very challenging to be able to enforce that no customer. Uh when the federal license may allow for it, first of all, uh but also when when we simply can't park out in front of the driveway and be watching for uh and we can get very very easily into a position at least appearing to be arbitrary in our enforcement activities.

And that's something I do not want to get into. We're not making any decisions tonight. I assume you don't have to. I certainly if I was just looking for direction, but I certainly don't need to. If you'd like, I can we can simply include this on next month's agenda. Think about it and uh we can chat further. I if we can gather up any more information, we'll certainly show you. How I mean based on your knowledge of of and and experience you mentioned that what we currently have is is I don't know s sort of a default position. How common is what we currently have versus what you're proposing? Both are common and generally depends on on how comfortable the person writing the ordinance was with with if you have if you have a consultant that that uh that's aware of this issue uh they're probably going to write into the ordinance to make it allow the use without a special use permit approval without a public hearing and then they're going to explain that to the community. In this particular case, as I said, I came into this into this process at the end of the at the end of the ordinance and the draft ordinance was was dropped on my desk in my first day. Um, and I had the opportunity to look at it uh and and ultimately to to talk to the consultant and say we there's a few things we need to to tweak and it was things like this the site plan review process, some other things that that needed to be easier with. Uh but I was very careful in in to not touch anything that was the policy of the planning commission. What uses require special use permit approval? Which uses are allowed in zoning districts? I was really looking at process like flight plan process. Um and and so I I did not do anything with gunsmiths or or a

number of other things in the ordinance uh simply because you had had more than a year of of looking at the ordinance, talking about it at the time. And I certainly was not going to substitute my my viewpoint for that in that in that way. This has come up now because somebody's raised it with us. And so it's worth it's worth bringing up and talking about. And you may decide not to do anything at all. And that's completely okay. It just makes it significant concern safety concern for the applicant and probably for other applicants who may want the same thing. Is there additional liability on behalf of the township for action or inaction on the subject? I wouldn't think so. No, no, we we have not putting someone in the way we do it. Um, just one uh one thing that I I remember uh about the the federal uh rules uh about the the ATF is that um private individuals don't necessarily need an FFL to um to conduct limited numbers of transactions. it's entirely possible for a private collector uh to buy and sell out of their own home without requiring a license uh as as a private basically as a private citizen um in very limited circumstances. So, um that's just simply stating a fact, not not a pro or a con either way. Yeah, that that's my understanding as well. Yes. The thing that I probably shouldn't say this, but the thing that occurs to me this the correspondence you gave us is from 2016 and 2017. Uh do we know whether we're going to have an ATF a year from now? I mean that is a valid point. Uh well I I or that they won't radically

change their level of permissiveness. Yeah, it is certainly possible. Um, no matter what, whether a federal license is required or not, a gunsmith still requests a special use permit in the township. So, even if somebody wants to, even if they no longer need a a federal license, they still would have to get that special use from us. Yeah. So, it it really doesn't change anything. I do want to say too, I mean it's, you know, because I realize people occasionally watch these things, you know, we've had, in my memory, we've had at least one, maybe more, but at least one uh fellow come here to apply for uh either a home occupation or special use permit, and for that purpose, gun collector, you know, wants to be able to make some sales, that type of thing. We approved it. We approved it. Um, but I I I don't know. I kind of like the idea that they have to come in and, you know, go through that process. So, that's kind of my bias at the moment. Um, I'm sorry. Oh, I'm sorry. I just I just had a random thought. We're we're attacking this from the side of um moving gunsmiths into nonspecial use. Um, is there any provision to make an exception in the special use process for gunsmiths to uh maintain their privacy? No. No. Okay. If it if they need a special use permit, they need approval from the planning commission of a special use permit, then the the hearing process is required and the hearing process uh has we have to follow the state act. Okay. It's a state. Okay. Okay. Thank you. I'd like to think about what provides a safer community, knowing or not knowing. They obviously are approaching at it that

they don't want anybody to know what they're doing. And I'm kind of okay with that. They're not they are subject to all the rules and regulations. They're more official. Any one of us could have 150 weapons in our homes. We would hope that they would all be in safes and properly locked, but I we could. Um, I'm looking at it as what provides a safer community in the respect of knowing or not knowing. I don't necessarily I mean, I've got a feeling, but I mean, I think that's just something we need to think about. H well, we're also representatives of our community, so we we have to put aside what our personal beliefs are. You know, I might sound like I'm someone who's fearful of guns or doesn't want them in the community. We have guns in our home and we hunt and that's not the case at all. But I recognize my responsibility to when we're in this room to make sure that we're doing what we think the community wants to do and for the best of the community, not just for what we think personally. I mean, it sounds like there's pros and cons to both approaches. Um, having it p, you know, having a special permit use so that we can keep tabs on and curtail, you know, the proliferation of these things and make the community safer versus not having the special use and um, having the privacy maintained so that there's not this this blaring advertisement, I have guns here, please come see me. um both approaches uh are trying to to do the same thing. They're trying to increase the safety of of the people in the community. They're just going about it in completely different ways. I'll be honest, I don't I don't know which way is necessarily correct. Perhaps we should have a public hearing on it. Well, if we change ordinance, ultimately

we would. If you'd like, we can simply include this on next month's agenda to continue the conversation. Does that sound okay? All right. It wouldn't hurt to think about it for a month. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, it's the only the only next step beyond that would be if if folks wanted to ask Rodney to present us with proposed language. But if we're not quite there yet, then yeah, you can bring it back as a discussion item next month. I'm not seeing a ground swell for directing you to take that next step. If any new information comes to light, though, certainly if there's something more we can share, we certainly share that. But we won't draft any language. And what what we shared, what we added to the the packet was really just give a taste for what these kinds of licences do. Yeah. How does how does the city of Mount Pleasant deal with this? I I don't know. I mean, it might be worth comparing just because, you know, we're urban areas, cities tend to have more rules. Yeah. You know, we we're an interesting place. We have an urban community and we have a rural community, right? And sometimes I think a significant part of what we what we do as do as a planning commission what we do as staff is balance those uh requirements by balance those competing interests. Yeah. And I think this is one of those place places where that we need to look at the balance. Yeah. Yeah. Where where the donut where the inside of the donut is different from the outside of the donut. It's got different frosting on it. All right. Um, okay. So, that will come back to us

next month. So, next item is under other business. We have a master plan update which I assume is basically the uh industrial corridor study. Yes, this uh this is as hot off the press as this is a project u may recall more than a year ago much more than a year ago. Uh we started started this uh it was not supposed to take anywhere near this long. In fact, it was supposed to be finished about this time last year. Um, through various circumstances, uh, my end because I was out of the office for a good bit of the first quarter of last year taking care of my my folks in Florida. Uh, but also because of some challenges and the engineering office. Uh, this took a much longer period of time to complete. Uh, but I wanted to share it with you. Really my update was to let you know that this study was finished where they did look at the at the uh high priority areas of of the quarter uh to look at potential new industrial sites. Uh the final report uh I felt was excellent. You may find a typo in there, one or two. I was told today that there's one uh that I missed and the engineer missed but uh I found the information for my purposes from looking at it I found it to be excellent in giving guidance uh to sort of where we might prioritize uh additional industrial land planning for additional industrial land community. Um so I know you may or may not have had a chance to glance at it. I certainly wasn't expecting it to kind of go through this tonight, but I want to make sure you had it and give you an update that with this the master plan project is going to move faster now because I this this actually took far more of my time than than I

than I ever intended to try to help the engineer get to where he needed to go in terms of the level of data and the depth of the evaluation that we were looking for. Uh and uh so uh you should start to see the master plan update and start to see material uh coming before you on a regular basis from here on uh as this project moves on ahead towards hopefully at some point updated draft doc. I'm happy to answer your questions about this but it's largely for your your evening meeting and it's interesting data. I I thought it was very very helpful. Yes, it has some heft to it. Sure does. There is some duplication because I what I did ask them to do was to to provide a report for each track each track of land that they identified. So there's some repetitions that you'll notice where the same the same information like approximately the airport uh restricted uh flight zones and such is the same or traffic numbers the same. That's and the GFA was the consultant. Yes. Gordy Frasier Associates. Gordy Frasier. Okay. Okay. any any immediate questions for Rodney? I mean, obviously, we're going to be working with this for a while, so Okay, thank you. Um, and so the other item under um other business is just a reminder that tomorrow night is the annual joint boards and commissions meeting, which is at Jameson Hall out off of Pickard, north of Pickard. um starting at 6.

Um I do plan to be there, but there's an outside chance I could be slightly late, but I plan to be there. I I'm we're on each of the groups is on the agenda, so I'm I'm prepared to, you know, say whatever. But um you all are invited, so if you can make it, uh you know, feel free to stop by. Typic those are not usually long meetings. The ones I've been to have been like an hour. So, um, and they last few times they've had food. So, cookies and water. That doesn't count. I think there was I think there was I think there was cheese last time or something. Cookies. Okay. Well, cookies can be good. But anyway, uh uh if you want if you're free and available, you're welcome to come. So, last item uh or I guess next last item is extended public comment. If there's anybody who'd like to address the planning commission on any item, whether it's on tonight's agenda or not, you are welcome to do so at this time. Uh extended public comment is uh limited to five minutes on any issue. It's open at 9:04. And we do not currently have an audience, so we'll go ahead and close that back up. And then the last one is final board comment. Any comments from board members? Just nice to hear the uh the comments about Rodney and Peter and your approach to community issues and uh community members. So, congratulations on that feedback and thank you for your service. Yes, we all see it, but it's nice to get that acknowledgement from the public. Yes. Thank you. Um anything else? Okay, then we've completed our agenda and we'll stand adjourned until our May Need it.