Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

What does everyone think of the agenda? Will you accept the motion? Um, as always, I'm uh I'd be happy to motion to move to amend the agenda to move public comments and open discussion to after our discussion. We already did. Oh, so for move moving five be to behind six. That's my that would be my motion. Second. I would second that motion. Okay. Seconded by Andrea. All in favor of moving five to after 6 say yes. Yes. Yes.

Court. Motion passes. I will also accept a motion to approve the agenda. At this point, I'll make a motion to approve set agenda. It's been moved. A second. Seconded that we approve the agenda as has been amended. All in favor say yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. Moving on to point two, declaration of conflict of interest. Nothing. Nothing.

Nothing for me. Okay. We'll close that section and move this point three presentation by Jeff Seedall for the proposed amendments of chapter 1.04 land use and appeal authorities and a chapter 2.02 concept plans. Oh, it does work.

Okay, fantastic. So, um first of all before we start, I'd like to just introduce this is Christine Epine and Kelly Wood. They are going to be very pivotal. Um, and I will show you where they fall into this chart here in a minute. So, um, Christine found a program that Provo City initiated years and years ago and we have copied and pasted it to Tmont and tried to tailor it to the size and scale that our city is in relation to Provo. And this is what we've come up with. So, um, we're going to start by showing kind of what the districts look like. Um, and then go through how the organization of the districts are and more of a of the roles that they have. Um, then there will be this kind of a diagram showing how the communication flows as as we receive information um, and the approval process and then we'll get into the code a little bit that out that describes all that. So um first the districts that we're proposing look like such that um you have the central district which will be everything between I-15 and then the Mad River. [snorts] Um the east district will be the Mad River out to almost the Bear River where our annexation boundary ends. Um, the south district will be everything between I 84 and 9600 south and or 9600 north 9600. We're just going to go with 9600. Um, and the Salt Creek and then the West Tmont District will just be the triangle that encompasses Radio Hill. Um, so yep, it'll it'll keep building. Um the structure will be this that uh we

will start using the applica the software that we use for application tracking and for land pretty primarily with land use and uh development applications. We'll change that and and allow it to notify um the email that we've set up for Christine. Um and Christine and Kelly will be the chairman and the vice chairman. Um each district will have the uh district board which will be the president, vice president and secretary. And those 14 will kind of be the executive group that meets and organizes um information going to the public and coming back to the staff. So um

this is the part that I was super excited about. Um just because I love bridges. I don't like there to be I like there to be open communication and I know the whole um this just adds an element to our city that we don't currently have but Provo after talking to some in Provo how what happens is um the concept plan comes in and then when it comes in it goes into obviously the city needs to have that information because it needs to go through DRC and all the planning stuff but then also get it goes to the the neighborhood representatives and the chairperson is then in charge of getting the information meaning the concept plan any like zone changes or any issues that might might affect the land in their areas. They will contact each district that it involves because it could involve more than one district depending on what the approval is, what what the plan project is. And then the the pivotal piece of the the thing that is supposed to helpfully make your jobs easier and everybody's jobs easier is allowing the public and the developer to actually communicate without having a third party. And I talked to the the neighborhood represent or the the lady in charge of this program in Provo quite a bit about this process and this meeting. And what they do is they have uh she's a full-time employee at at in Provo because they need it. But they have the neighborhood representative chairperson runs the meeting along with someone from the city. It would probably Jeff. and they invite the developer to the meeting so that the so that all the citizens before it even hits the planning commission, before it hits the the DRC, the citizens have information on what is coming up so that they're educated on what's going to be impacting their neighborhood and then they can hash it out. They can talk with the developer and she says the meetings go really well. They actually have, you know, etiquette at the meetings and sometimes the developers go away with better ideas because the citizens know their area and so they might make adjustments to their plans. So if the developers come, she says a lot of times it's really really good and it also gets

a relationship being built between the developer and this and the citizens and some information put out there so that there's transparency and clarity there. So that's what the discussion part is. So you schedule the meeting and then step before you have the discussion and then unbiased notes will be taken by the neighborhood um representative the and they will then have that to be able to present to you at the as as a planning commission when we when they come the planning commission comes. So then you will get a a representation of what what is the sentiment of the public based on that meeting. And so um and then and then all the finding findings get the developer can take their input and they can kind of say well where are we going to get it's always a give and take. There's always just to give the people [clears throat] a little bit more information. So that's kind of kind of what I was really excited about is getting the information out ahead of the game so that we can actually have some public input before so then your meetings are faster and easier. You know that's the that's the whole idea and the public is informed and educated and ha and they're and they are have a place to be able to have an impact. So a graph that um we will be sharing now with with anyone that that early comes in is this is the approval process for any development. So, they'll um submit a concept plan to uh to me and I will then share that with the DRC in the neighborhood and schedule those meetings um with the public and and with our um approval staff and they'll go through that cycle as many times as the developer feels [cough] needs to. [clears throat] Um

oh, can I add something? Yeah, go ahead. I forgot. Um, as far as Provo, they used to have it where the developers were required to go to this meeting, but that's not not really they got flashback and that's they can't do that. And so the developers are never required to go to the meeting, but they are highly recommended that they go. If the developer doesn't go to the that meeting, at least the the people are still getting the input and they're getting the information out from they're getting all the information the city has. So, sorry.

No worries. Um so we'll work with we'll work with um developers through that first portion there between uh the feedback you see on the second line well it says repeat or progress. So there then if they feel like they need to make changes from what either they the information they received from the public or the DRC they can go through that um and then what hap when they're prepared they will depending on what type of development it is. If it's residential, they would submit for preliminary plat approval um and move on to that. If it is a commercial or industrial, then it would become a site plan application. And that's when um what's known as a landowner's vested rights have become triggered and it makes it a little more difficult and time consuming then to start incorporating a a lot a large amount of feedback. Um, and so that's why we're going to try and frontload this process for the community and for the developers so that if there are significant changes, they haven't spent a large amount of money getting further along in this process. Um, and then having to go backwards. So

say that that's at the development review committee stage. Well, it's it's that's why we were gonna have them go to DRC as well because that's when developers meet with me and with the I mean, they're going to meet with me a lot. Um, but it's when they meet with the city engineer and the public works director and our parks and recre um and and so that's when you start talking about, you know, is there a master plan park there or is there some kind of impact? Um, is there any kind of master planned improvement that needs to be incorporated with that? So they they look at the infrastructure portion with the DRC and the public input will be with the neighborhoods. Um but yeah, once once they're ready, then they'll continue to going through the DRC for residential. Um the the one part you the PL um the planning commission comes in is the administrative approval for preliminary plat. Um but it's not an extremely common um discussion point here. Um and then after that most of the time site plans get approved pretty easy for commercial and industrial stuff. So they'll move on to pulling their B building permit. Um after preliminary plat then develop residential development goes into the final plat uh which approves the construction of the development on a phase by phase basis and that has to do with many things but mainly financials is the easiest way to summarize it. Um if there is a development agreement that's had to go with any of them um then that will have to go to the city council before they pull a building permit for ratification. So that um that's going to be the new process incorporating the neighborhood um

partnership. Oh yeah, the neighborhood partnership um and hopefully getting the community engaged so that um they have a great avenue to to pose questions. So Jeff, I was going to ask once this, you know, approval process, let's say, gets going and you've had your meetings, how long before it would come to us? I mean, is there a time frame? Is there depends on how fast days 100 days

depends on how fast they move on their end. So if um for example we've worked with uh we've worked with a development developer and and have gone through three concept plans with them. And so at that point it could be quick to go through like or with the overlook could be a great example. We've had a public meeting. Um, they've worked on their concept plan for a while. So,

Provo, can I Yeah. Provo says, well, I asked the same question to to the Provo. She she says that it's a it's the review process. They call it a department head review process and she says it can take anywhere from at the quickest two weeks to three years depending on the complexity of the of the project. Yeah. Yeah. But then it can still be in that educational phase before they hit vested rights. Final Yeah. final agreement and She said it just depends on the project because if they keep getting feedback and keep changing it then you're not triggering your vested rights and have that time crunch and you just have all that all that information up front. Yeah, that sounds good.

What we will be proposing with this as well is that each of so because there's four districts the planning commissioners who are not the chairman will work with will be assigned to a district and and be notified when they're having a district meeting. um so that each of the district has a representative up there and the alternates that we have if you guys can't make it that's when the alternates can be asked to substitute as well if you know and it's not a requirement that you be there but that's the avenue we would like for Kelly and Christine to be able to make sure that the districts have a representation so as you're discussing matters whether they're land use code or whether it's um you know our general plan or or whatever other plan you guys can kind of be a voice and an educated voice for each of the districts up there as we go through it. So,

and have a working relationship with with someone on the council. So, with the commission,

we'll work through those assignments later. Um, so we're gonna the main spots that are are really worth if you want to go through and and highlight the code is um that should um No, I almost did that. I almost typed that incorrectly. It's supposed to be 13 0, but it's 013 because Listexia is a problem. Um, defines the purpose of the neighborhood partnership initiative and it gives six items there. Um 140 shows how the executive boards are organized and the requirements that you have to follow to be trained and and how you can rotate through between being the district boards and the chairman's. Um and then 145 outlines the meeting and the etiquets that you that uh there has to be. So moving on um either of you want to take this? Um the whole idea of this of this uh new initiative is like we said to create better communication but then also to pull from the city um people and volunteers to help have a input in an organized way and more than just land use. It can be for educating like uh educating the pe the people on what were we just talking about before um when we first got in here. I was like oh you could use the neighborhood initiative to get the information out. Oh about the [snorts] recordings of the meetings. You know what I Like if if there was like like if the just to be able to allow a place for the citizens if they have someone in their neighborhood that they know that they voted for that is in ch that is on a on a committee that is connected to the city then they have a place to go to channel their concerns and um which would be very helpful for a lot of people in all situations. My sister-in-law is has been a part of this the neighborhood initiative in Provo for many years and she's loved it. She's gotten sidewalks in her street because of it. She's gotten um stop lightss because there are things that are going

around in their neighborhoods that they that they need help with and she has a way to go in and do it. And they actually have other other avenues and other ways to create unity within the neighborhoods. And she's absolutely loved it. That's where I heard about the program was from her. And I just feel like it will really help to create some synergy and um a way to work together because we have our town's full of great people. We have so many amazing people here. So, that's kind of my hope. Um, just so that when we get to the planning commission, we don't have to come here and feel like we're not educated at all and we don't know what's going on because it's not our that's not that's that just is I would like to move to a place especially as we're growing and me particular like we live up on the hill. There's going to be lots of growth, lots of people that have questions and concerns and there needs to be a way for those to be answered. So, so that's my plug. Any questions?

Kelly, anything you'd like to add?

No, I just think you guys probably seen my face before. We were involved in the annexation and I think Jeff and I and all of us have done some painful learning this year together, but I think this could have prevented so much of the hard like, you know, back and forth and feelings because it's just like an avenue for people to get information and have a voice before it gets too far that they don't have a voice anymore. You know, I think my goal in our community is to just create more unity and more positive feelings for and I think this is a huge avenue could help that because so much of the I think everyone has good intentions and everyone wants to do the best but the communication has been fractured and I think this could just give the residents a voice and the growth that's happening or the changes that are happening and that's really important I feel like to to foster better relationship ships within the

I think more information you can put out the longer they can have it to and no one ever likes to be blindsided. No, it's Yeah, that's Yeah. So, this I think helps them feel like they had a voice before the decisions were made. Yes. So, well, and coming to these meetings, I just started coming to them the beginning of the summer and I realized we need to help. You know, there's got to be there's got to be a way to help. And so, that's kind of my my intent. I was like, I don't want to just complain. I want I want to get in there and help and help help do the job so that we can make a better city. What a great example of public getting involved, right, and figuring out a solution [laughter] and coming in with some good answers. I mean, this is awesome. Well, really is. Do you mind switching over to the code?

Um, so I do have a question. Yes. Yeah. If anyone in Tmont has attended a caucus meeting, they will know that Tmont residents don't really want to be involved in a lot of things. So, how do we encourage involvement besides the three of us that normally attend those things that will be that's that's going to be we know that that's already an issue because we're as we've been reaching out, but we have been helpful with the growth that's coming. People are w they want to be involved

and I feel like a huge I was involved in trying to get people to come to meetings. We started with tons of people coming to meetings and fell off very quickly because they felt like it didn't matter what they said and how many people. So people are like we're wasting two and three hours every time we come because no one's listening. So if they feel like someone's listening and it is is driving the decisions made, people are going to come.

Well, it's neighborhood based too. I had over 100 people at my neighborhood meeting. Do you know what I mean? like you can't tell people are going to come but and it's so if you have a neighborhood based [clears throat] meeting I know caucus meetings are hard and stuff too but but that's but if you the local things that affect people locally you're going to start to get people to show up and that's going to that's that's going to be a lot of work that's why it's going to take some traction to get going but I think if if we really put our our shoulders to the wheel and I really appreciate the code that Jeff's been doing and all the work that he's done on this um that will create the legal avenue but then we got to get our hands dirty and we got to as many people has came to our neighborhood meeting for one issue. We got to get them coming more. So,

and I feel like it's just like our we've swapped and this will be better because before it was like we were hearing voices after it was too late to hear the voices. So, people are like, well, it doesn't matter. I can come but it's already done and there's nothing I can do. So, we're just wasting time. This is we're asking people before the decisions made. So, I think that's a huge change that will help people feel more like it's not a waste of their time or they'll be more educated. So they'll be more educated. They'll be like and they'll be more okay with whatever decisions is being made because they were part of the process. Sounds have you thought about any sort of um teenagers child care or anything like that to encourage more moms and women to child care? Yeah. Or like the meetings you mean?

Yeah. Yeah. So the parents can both parents could you know I mean not a single parent then they have sponsored or anything like that but just to have something there. I know that's that is an issue with caucus meetings is that that's a great we can it just tends to be men there center and we could because they said we have the meetings there or here and then we can block off a leather area and say kids can go on this side and we can have our meetings on the other side that's a great just something to I mean even if you just had the parents put it together so it's not necessarily city sponsored or anything like that but just something to bring up with them to have an idea of that because I know that is a huge concern for young moms who that is a that is a great idea. Yep. Okay.

Well, and and the great spot because of the age that we live in is if they have comments and they know how to communicate them to their board, they could email those comments in beforehand. And so even if they can't make it because of, you know, moms don't have anything like there's a whole demographic here that can't make it because they've got piano recital and trying to get four kids to all different sports in a few hours. So, we're going to work to be as flexible as we can with the but that's why it's going to be really important that our district boards are proactive in making sure that they get the information out get information out but also that they help get information back. So,

yeah, and that's and that's how Provo does it. The district board members and who's in charge of the neighborhood, it's their responsibility. They can get the information out however they want and they can so it can be even outside of the meeting. They can have a Facebook group. can have they can do whatever kind of communication that they want. It's just their job to get the information out to their neighbors and then then bring come back and report. Yeah. Cool.

These are likely not like regular meetings for the general public though, right? It's mostly when things come up that you hold the meeting. I think out the gate I think out the gate we'll try to have some pretty regular meetings organized to get organized and to to make sure that we're reaching out because if we don't put the effort in out out the gate now once it's established to make sure you get neighborhoods involved. I mean the central district has as much ahead of it as it can because it it really encompasses all of Tmont right now. So you're talking about everyone from from Archbald Estates all the way down to 15

I-15. I mean each neighborhood needs to have a representative and they need to understand how this is. So that's that's one of those that like we'll all I mean I'm I'm have been committed to to doing even monthly meetings with the districts just to start gathering feedback and understanding what the best organizational um chain of communication is to uh because there's there's so much going on with some of the code stuff we're trying to do and the amount of development that's coming into Tmont. Um, if we can't get organized out the gate, it's only going to make the growing pains of this initiative more difficult once the dirt starts turnurning. But like we met Brett and I met with a developer on Monday um that's done work in Provo and when we told them we are going to start doing the same thing they were excited to get the public involved because they understand it's a lot easier on them

and anymore to get the public and and get questions and stuff because it simplifies their end. Yeah. I mean well and the big test I think for this is the driving the input for the general land use plan updates and that's going to be that's actually one of my driving passions about this is getting the public's input on how are we going to get that that you know on the land use plan update and that's it's going to take it's going to take a lot of work.

Yeah. Well, all four of the, you know, the four different districts, will you have a, let's say, a unified meeting together, you know, so that the other three districts kind of know what is taking place or are you think so it's a round robin so everybody know has the you know same. Our hope is that we'll meet with each of the districts independent like separately and but we'll let others know when those meetings are happening so that if they can't make it to their own district, they can still come and are welcomed as as long as we're talking about things like a the general plan or the integrated land use plan that affects all of the districts.

If there's a development coming in and and people show up that are from outside that district and I mean people they'll show up. We'll hope to just field questions though from members that are inside that district because it's not that it doesn't impact all the other ones, but we want to make sure that the neighborhoods know they can come and talk to people who are going to be developing next to them. So, so to be clear, when information is gathered or a meeting is held, then you'll report to this meeting the next scheduled meeting if it's pertinent. Yeah. Yeah. What would you consider pertinent? uh zoning change, um annexations, things um developments.

Yeah. Development, things like that. Yeah. So, between they'll they'll likely present when the preliminary plaque comes to the commission. Yeah. If it's development, which is where at that in that Yeah. Okay. So, you'd like start all the way up here. and they if they have to repeat then they'd go back or they'd come down here and once they have their DRC and then like an advisory board for you guys. They they'll sit down here and give you information. [clears throat]

Yeah. So then when you sit sit down here you'll have the developer but then you also have the the the chairman of the neighborhood to be able to kind of talk to if you need questions. I guess what I'm what I'm trying to get at is at because we all I mean I would you know saying specifically not including the chair these guys are are coming to these meetings like it would be good to have a pulse on where the the conversation is going you know um before we get to the serious stage.

Yeah. So that I'm assuming we're talking about the same thing. So as long as that makes sense, we're all kind of understanding that. Can I request specific things from you guys to bring to that meeting? One, the number of people in attendance. Oh yeah. This just just because these were coming off the top of my head like I actually looked at a I actually looked at a um agenda or a report from the district to and that's what the first thing they do. This is how many people we not just in attendance, how many people they talked to and how many people responded. You know what I mean? Like like how many people spoke at the meeting? Spoke or communicated. They could make it to the meeting. Who did You know what I mean? Okay. Then a number of households in your sector,

the district, is that what name we're calling it? I'm not applying that to the neighborhoods. I mean the south one for the south district I can understand doing houses because you've got a lot of county development where Yeah. you you've had someone just build and you know where the road frontage is, but for the central one to start talking about households, that's 75% of the town. So each district is going to be well and it's it's important information though if you're thinking about, you know, you're you're making a decision based on the voices of a 100 people that make up a hundred out of 5,000.

Yeah. or something some huge number and it's like okay I I do understand where these concerns are coming from where like I don't know if that means I need to make it an initiative of mine because 100 people say something you know especially in a densely populated area where like I don't know that's the whole reason I did the survey on the hill so you could see this is this is a percentage of what the people on the hill want it's not just you know what I mean so that's the same question right

and and Maybe the central tree, they might end up dividing it kind of into different subgroups too to kind of have like if you're in this section where the school is being built and you're within this two miles of the school, these are the people that are very concerned. These are the households that this is very Does that make sense? Miles is all done. Yeah, that's one mile. Whatever. [laughter] Each district will eventually part of the district's our their job will be to divide each district into neighborhoods and eventually each neighborhood will have a president and a vice president and so you'll have different so and then that district encompasses. Does that make sense?

It makes it makes perfect sense. I know exactly right. I actually really appreciate this because a core belief of mine, this is going through the philosophical, I know Jeff loves these conversations, but uh in the original drafting of the Constitution and the articles talking about representatives, the representation was like one representative per every like 20,000 people. If we were to follow those rules today, we'd have an an huge House of Representatives, right? 30 million people or 330 million people and divide that by 20,000, you got tons and tons of people. But I actually think that that's the way it should be personally, especially now with the technology that we have. So you can make a vote. You can actually make a voice and you can [clears throat] make a difference.

You can you can splice down to the the fragmented sector of of population exactly what those people would would want. It would be like Tmont and having their own federal representative. How crazy. That be cool. Would that would be cool. Okay. Sorry, I have a question now. Yes. Are uh legally are there any laws or things like that? Okay. Like thinking back when people used to not let other people buy houses on a certain side of the highway, like segregation and all that kind of thing, red lining. Is there any sort of like do we need to be concerned about any of that with with

this? Like is this creating an opportunity for citizens to say, "Oh, no. We don't want those kind of people to move in here because we're just advisory. They don't make any decisions." Okay. So, the city doesn't have to be worried with anything like that. Okay. They'll make the same recommendations the planning commission does. Okay. Um and so ultimately it comes down to just trying to get the public informed. Um, but there's nothing that they can there's there's nothing that even this committee could really do that if someone's following the zoning code that there's nothing they can do. So, but if there's something that like this committee sees that's a fault in the zoning code, then great. Like I think the more eyes that we have on our code and understand it,

better chance we have of making a a communitybuilt zoning code. As much fun as it is to write it all myself, I wouldn't mind some input. Yeah. Um there's a couple other items that I had written down if a PC member was present like as part of the notes making that one of the requested things. So as part So that's number three. Yeah. So make sure you want to report back if the PC member was president. Correct. Because if not we can fire him. [laughter] No we can't. Well no voluntary position. So fire. But uh and that includes alternates. Okay. And then who ran the meeting? Oh, it'll be her.

Well, yeah. You're running all of them. No, no, no. Well, the ones with the developers because you have to have a moderator. You're going to have a moderator that that moderates between to make sure that it's Yeah, that's how they do it in Go ahead. Well, I was just thinking so each when I was looking at the which one was showing like the four different districts groups, but there was a drop down like go to page four. This one? Yeah, that one because you're the chairman, right, Christine? Well, that's got to be approved by the council. Okay. But theoretically, we're saying yes. You're hypothetical.

There is a chairman at this point. You'd be the chairman and Kelly would be vice chair or someone in that. Then you have the group presidents. You're you you're planning on attending every single one of the group meetings as the Okay. And then you're leading to start spending a lot of time together. Yes. Okay. [laughter] Okay. That is that's what we need to do to to make change. And Jeff is moderator. Who's moderating? It'll depend on your moderator. Yeah. So she'll moderate if it's it'll be her or the district vice the district president depending on which of the meetings are being hosted. Yeah.

I will be there just to observe like Brett is here at these meetings and if they have questions I'll be there to be able to answer them but it will not be a meeting that I moderate and run. So I'll be able to just sit back and play spider solitaire on my laptop. in Provo, the chairman of this person, her title, she's a full she's a full-time employee and her title is the community relations coordinator. And so she so she's in charge of all community relations and that's and it ends up it's it is a provo city employee if that makes sense. But just warning, you know, if you're starting out volunteer, you're never going to get paid for this. I don't ever want to get paid. [laughter]

We're never going to put that in the budget. I'm going to be budgeting to pay it, but like [laughter] how it fits in so that you can see that there is there is that city liaison with the public. Yeah. And so she's not driving to get a job like Oh, no. No, I know. I'm just [laughter] Yeah, but I'm driving to pay her because this is going to be a lot of time. It's going to be a lot of time at work. [laughter] Um, so we really at this point have gone through the code. Is there anything you guys want to dive into the code to ask questions about or are you comfortable moving into the public hearing and and moving on in with the agenda? Can I make a suggestion? Sure.

Um, can you just make sure you incorporate the index into this? I like that. We're trying to do that in allies. Thank you. I know Chris will listen to me. A three or a four. I really do like in the code. Just noting this. You guys don't have it pulled up in front of you like I do when I'm like kind of scrolling through whatever. I like

Yeah, but it's farther down. Uh number seven on 1.40. Um I really like that it has like absences that like if they if like a board member fails to be at three consecutive meetings um or 50% within an eight-month period period, then they're fired from their position. Um, and then also like candidates for public office that if a member of the board is filing for office that they have to take a leave of absence. Yeah. Recluse themselves. Yeah. And I like that. I think that that's a really good way to kind of keep it not a not a campaigning platform.

Yeah. Not a campaigning platform, not a um it it just is completely like for the good of the neighborhood and for the good of the city. Is there anything in the code written that uh restricts marketing at set meetings? Yes. So there's one down here in terms of communications that um in 145 scroll down says that you can't use it for any form of communication. It restricts how they can use it to communicate and that they can't um use anything for endorsement for political or commercial activities. So yeah, Provo City has done a great job with this code.

Going to be really sucky is that you can't use LBS tools to get people's information for these meetings. Well, that's going to be really sucky. Don't qualify it that way, but it's a lot of people get other numbers. [laughter] I just knock on their door. Well, people know people know people anyways. So, and that is really is the hope is that I mean with the is that as this is going I think the optimistic outlook is that it finds its own momentum and people understand it's the the best avenue to express concerns that they have with this whatever comes up with the city whether it's development whether it's the general plan whether it's stop sign here or

oh yeah stuff there because I mean getting it at least knowing the avenue to knowing that this avenue exists is probably will be the way that most people start thinking this is the best way to get information to the city if they see that that is acted upon if Yeah, exactly. So, you're saying our planning commission meetings are going to be empty again? It's going to be so boring. Well, we're hoping we'll we'll at least have the input that we're seeking from a full meeting, right? That's what we're hoping then is it will help reduce the drive the purpose of the meeting because people will have already had a voice and they're not coming here totally not knowing what's going on and so and feeling like they have

your interactions hopefully will be much more pleasant because that com communication's already happened. Yeah. So,

and that's why we want to get the planning commission members involved too at the meeting so that they know that they don't have that the public doesn't have to come to this meeting as well to let the planning commission know what those are. Then in return, I would wonder if [sighs and clears throat] also maybe it's a request from from you as well or if it's a standing rule that we make at these meetings or not rule but like a practice that we do have someone like like this I don't know the city manager or you mentioned the engineer when we're talking about questions about water like so that when your representation exists in this meeting that that feedback is available or like that that knowledge that resource is there because I feel like when the citizens come to these meetings what they will be doing is asking questions

that we don't he might not know the answer to oh you mean at the neighborhood meetings yes you'll you'll be hardressed to find a question I don't know an answer to by the way and if we don't have And I don't mean that out of arrogance. I mean that generally out of like how much I do with all of the other departments. So if if we were to ask how many units of houses can we get from an acre water? Yeah. Yeah. Well, it depends a little bit on the size because I mean with state code if you you could get 35% more multif family units out of an acre foot than you could out of single family. So, Right. Right.

The com generally though I think an acre foot of water is like 150 homes. Um and then how much is and and water shares are well broken up different every year. Is that No. So water shares are what comes with the secondary water system. Is that okay? Um so it's different than the culinary system that you're

those are water shares out of the canal company. So what you're diving into is the difference between what's the the dirty is water rights versus water allocation. So water rights is where you have the ability to pull water out of the aquifer and the state engineer has to review and approve those if there's anything new. And that's what's called um paper water. Um and generally in a state like Utah, you have more paper water than you have actual water because of the just the drought cycles. So, is there a way to know a like this year,

this is how much water we really have? Oh, no. Not the paper. We haven't gone through winter. No. I mean, if you go through a winter like we had into 2020, we're going to have plenty. We're going to have a lot. If you go through the winter we had last year, EPA conference, they said it's still even after that is still the data is still a year behind with reporting across the state and everything, which makes sense to me.

Yeah. But kind of back to your question, like you want to have that, what I'm hearing is you want to have that information available to the public um at our meetings. I think the idea of this neighborhood initiative is to create less of a burden on the city and the other the other councils, the commit planning commission and the city council. So those times that we have questions that he can't answer or that I can't answer, I don't think there's any reason we can't go back and say, "Hey, I'll answer I'll get that information from the city city um engineer." Rather than requiring the city engineer to be at every meeting, that's just more for him to have to do. I don't have any problem with telling the neighborhood depart heads, we will talk to the city engineer and get that question answered to you. Then they're still being heard and it doesn't add another responsibility to the city engineer. Does that make sense? Is that what is that the question you're saying asking?

Yeah. I mean, is is your concern that there will be things said at these meetings that are not factual that will then be spread because we don't have someone there factchecking? Well, no. I Well, but I think like she's saying whatever is being said that engineer or whoever can come back and say, "No, this is here. Here's the data right here." Yeah. and you can present it and saying this is what what is currently out there and so that way it could help you know because that's a formal

and most of the people are going to I think they want to see the concept plan like like if they can see the concept plan and figure out what's coming into their neighborhoods and if they do have questions like that's why get them out before it hits later on in in the Yeah. And I might be wrong too, but I think part of the whole goal Brett has in general is to get a new general plan with zoning in place and we're not just swapping it every time a developer comes in, which I think will reduce so much of these like how are we putting apartments here? Are we putting one acre lots? Like it's already going to be zoned and we're going to kind of stick to that zoning. Is that correct? That's how Yeah, that's how Provo when I talk to

you're not dealing with this whole wide range of options. It's like this. So at this point, here's my here's here's my question to you. What's the purpose of planning commission to decide if they'll make the final decision but this is just mean we don't even make a decision. This is well this is the recommendation advisory board when I when I talked to the the lady there she said when when something comes to the planning commission the the um city Jeff what's your planner

planner he says does it hit code does it make code or does it not make code that's really what it is and then your job is what they do in provo she said they they look at two things they look at the general land use plan does it fit within the land use plan yes or no does it meet code yes or no and then if it does not fit into the lanny's use plan then if it doesn't fit into the lany plan that's usually when that's what your decisions are when am I changing the zoning that's that different from what it's in the lany plan and so then you have to justify why why does it not fit and is that an adequate is that a good reason and she they actually make an amendment to the plan if it if they change a zoning does that make sense so they have all their zoning all fit we're a little behind the game in that we don't have the zoning all all mapped out and we have annexations coming and different things. But once we get that general land use plan, all the planning commission is supposed to be doing then is does it fit within the the general land use plan and does it fit within the code? Yes or no. That's how easy every planning commission and every city council meeting should be. Especially if we have all the work done up front and the only deviants are when something goes against when you have an annexation or when you have a a zoning change. And if that zoning change is comes to the commission, that's when you would make an amendment. Then we make an amendment and then that's when the feedback comes in.

I think in my like just from my experience what happened to us with our annexation is we got a you know you get your letter or whatever like so by the first time we actually came to like a city council meeting it was like up for a vote like we're annexing it tonight or not. So we were all like what in the heck like we don't know anything about this we're freaking out you know what I mean? So you get all these people showing up. So what's going to happen in my mind if I'm seeing this right is all that input and dialogue would have happened when the first annexation even was in question like are we maybe I'm wrong Jeeoff is this right like are we we're thinking about you got people and asking questions that's obviously going to naturally happen in the

considering an annexation what do you think you know like here's our plan we'd like your feedback so all that dialogue could have happened before it was like the developers have put all this time and work had put all this time and work and we're way down the road and then people are getting involved at the end stages is when it's like all sorts of upset like so the process will be the same for you. It's hopefully just going to make it so much better for the community and residents to have a voice and the developer to feel like they know what you know what I mean so they're not blindsided by all these people that are really angry that never heard about it till yesterday. You know what I mean? I just like it's going to be the same process. Hopefully it'll just be so much more

so much [clears throat] better communication. Well, and and we also have in the in the map future annexation people that aren't in so they will be on the on in the committee, too. So, like you've got all the part out in um in closer to Bothwell that that they're not annexing the city, but it is on our land use plan to annex them into the city. And so, they will be included in all the discussions ahead of time. And that's where people I think will have a value the that's where the value will come in with this neighborhood. they have a place to go when they're not even city. They're not even like part of the city right now because they're all count they're still county. So you have that you have their input in there too.

So like at our last meeting when we had all the people who were very concerned they were going to be annexed in and very concerned about what would happen with all these things and the this would be their place to not only they have a place they have a representative too and it would have happened when it very first got offered. And the great thing to me is this gives me an avenue to get information out because like you can send a letter but if you send a letter to my house I

let my kids color on it. Um and so it gives me a a way to communicate out to districts as I hear about development or annexations and everything. So, my hope too is it'll help me communicate better with the public as things come come to me because that was one of the struggles with, you know, with Kelly is that um, you know, we we don't have every I don't have access to everyone's information and so the best shot I have is send a letter out to whatever address is on the count county parcel viewer. That's not always going to get to to the land owners.

That's not getting the information. And then when you get it, you don't even know what this means and you call the city and you don't get any answer. You know what I mean? Like this is just like such a better I feel like as a citizen, it would have made a lot of difference in our experience and probably made people you guys deserve to be yelled at. But I think people might be, you know, people were just like, whoa, I I need it. Everybody needs to be yelled at every once in a while. [laughter] I think it could just it could help make our city a better you more happy relationships as far as just better efficiency overall.

Okay. Okay. That was the presentation. Mhm. Yep. Okay. Then uh covered number five too. Yeah.

It was moved to the end. Well, we didn't actually open it up to our uh public quite yet. I did see some smiles and knots and shakes, but no. Anyway, let's close three. We'll move to point four, public hearing to receive public input on proposed amendments as discussed from chapter 1.04, land use and appeal authority and chapter 20.2.02, concept plans. Um and then yeah public input [laughter] the mic right the only thing I can see on

I need you to get up [laughter] had a long day picked on by the dentist today. Oh, so sorry. Okay. So, my name's Debbie Bratner. Um, the only thing I can see, you said that only one representative. I can't talk to them, right? Is that technically? No. Um, for your four districts, is that correct? There's four districts. Yes. Wouldn't it be better like say uh there be two representatives for each district just in case be four each district.

Oh, four. Oh, okay. Yeah. That way if somebody can't make it, then there's somebody else more than one opinion. You get a wider variety. Okay. All right. All right. That's the only thing I was thinking. I was just thinking that there was only one. Okay. Thank you, Debbie. Mhm.

But to further clarify, there'll be the four, but then there also be neighborhoods that will be the and those four will be elected from the different neighborhoods. So each ideally each neighborhood will have at least a president and a vice president. So then the four and then they will vote who the who their four representatives are. Will we start with just the four? Yes, we're going to start with just the four and then put them to work on finding and help. They're gonna help us with the find people. Yes. And then if you talk to your three friends and you recruit it, then it'll just become a downline and [laughter]

we call it a multi-level marketing scheme. [laughter] Um I got that. So, okay, that is public input. We'll close that section and move to receiving public input on proposed zoning of parcel 05-060-0089. Properties located at 190 South 900 West Tmont in Utah. Do we have that partial pulled up? Yeah. Yeah. My bad. I should share it. It's um it's over the um few months ago we had a the just the parcel to the north came in for a reason because they were moving to central Utah. Okay. So this is behind tire. Uh

yeah. And so now this is just the parcel to the south because same story. So they're hoping to reszone. Um, apparently the developer that bought the land of the north is hoping to also buy this one and kind of do a um do a subdivision on both of them, but right now it's currently zoned RR1. Um, and they're hoping for R110. So, hold, let me pull up that location. I don't know what [clears throat] you're talking about. Um, if the corner of where Maverick is, but it's on the opposite side. Yeah. And it's southeast a little bit. So yeah, to the south of Maine. Okay.

I I was just asking the space between crumbs. Yeah. So like right there and butter and whatever the tire shop. So this would be this would be an infilled neighborhood. Yeah. To like fill in kind of like my neighborhood did the last couple years. Just south a little bit. So if you go from Ron Keller, there's Maverick. Yeah. Tada. Right. So, the one to the north was reszoned and we've been working with the new land owner on uh concept development and now he's looking to purchase, it's my understanding, he's looking to purchase the one to the south and be able to play connect the dots depending on how it pencils in terms of lots and everything. So,

south of M. Um, so the parcel under consideration for Arizona is the one that has put this Main Street is the one with the cursor over it. That's Main Street. This is this is Iowa string, right? Maverick. I want to see on this guy with the squares in it. She's like,

so it's right there. Members first is right there. Can't even make it that far. They do it. Um I pulled up my So yeah, they're they're just um R110 is the same zone for all the all the houses there to the west or to the east. Also the same zone for what was reszone for the parcel to the north. So and when he came in first, what was the present what was the situation there? Um well the the one to the north was relocating to central Utah. So that 56. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. Got 88 parcels where Oh, okay. We're talking about the one beneath that one.

Well, okay. Well, yeah, [clears throat] those two parcels right there that the north parcel came in a few months ago and and reszone. Gotcha. I thought we were just talking about the same one and I was like, "Okay, that I'm on board." So, public input on that. Yeah. Hop open to have it done. [laughter] Okay. Okay. Sounds like that's okay.

The extent of it, we'll close the point B and then we will go to point six as part of the amended agenda planning commission members discussion consideration of point A chapter 1.04 land use and appeal authorities and chapter 2.02 02 concept plans. I think I I think this neighborhood initiative would be really good for communication throughout the city. I think for me um I do have concerns about like getting people there.

Um just because it's I mean it's us the same people, right? It's always the same people that are everything, right? So I definitely do have that concern. Um, but I think that we can that if we get people together and everything and make it positive, I think people will be involved.

Yeah, it's just it's just going to take some time to get everybody into the thinking mode of okay, I do have a voice and I want to be heard and this is this is a forum to be able to come and and to participate. I mean it's their choice whether they participate or not and eventually if those that don't participate and something does get put through then who are they can't blame because they had the opportunity to come and give theirs well and and ideally this is the program that's going to help bring people to replace planning commission down the road so as you guys step out or if you want [laughter] I'm just going to get rid of this

we get it. All right. But I'm just saying like like my life is hard one of the hard parts with being over planning commission is finding people that are interested to be on planning commission. But I think this initiative is a great way to start getting people educated so that if a vacancy happens at planning commission or we have an alternate then that goes there. We now have an entire hopefully farm system of people that may want to become an alternative of planning commission. Sure. And not and people who already know the process too. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think this is this is a good initiative. It opens it up to everybody and they can participate and I'm like still down here on the curve. Me, too.

But no, I think this is really good. I I like Yeah, I like what I read. The only changes to 2.02, by the way, are just changing it that instead of it being an optional step, that is changing it to be a required step. Um, and that was really it. And then just and wording changes to include neighborhood partnership. Yeah. And just the wording changes to include the neighborhood partnership. So there isn't a lot of substantive changes to that chapter, but I needed to include it. So we called it a required part of the approval process. Um, are we making a recommendation? Recommendation today. Yes. Okay.

I'm going to put in a little thought here. Um, one concern that I do have is that, and this comes from another core belief about property rights, I I tend to side with the owner of the property in whatever case that might be. That's you and you, right? Your property is your property and nobody has a right to come and demand of you what that property needs or should be. Obviously, we have code. Obviously, that's why the city is set up as the city, right? We have we have to have some sort of order and structure.

But at the end of the day, you know, so it's still your house. And if it's somebody that owns 1,000 acres, 2,000 acres, 3,000 acres and they want to do what they want to do with it, like I hope in these meetings that that is emphasized as well that you know it it's a it's a and as you get your general plan use plan updated and that's going to help a lot with that because buy that land, they know what their options are beforehand. Sure. You know, so I feel like Well, not only people know what their options are, people know what to expect. Yeah. And it's like this is this is this is coming. This is what I've got coming.

I'd be interested to see what the council or the you know the neighborhood initiative would come up with as far as where to put commercial zones. It's not their decision though, but their ideas I'm saying are going to be put on the table. That's what I'm saying, right? And if we're going to use that input to develop a general plan, which I would say was a smart idea. If you're a member of the city, you should have a say in how you set up your city. Seems fair. you're paying taxes. So, but that was one thing I just like I'd be curious. It would be I mean I'm interested to hear just as a personal note. um

be is if is that we go through the changes with the land use plan and the changes that we'll implement with some of the new code like the form-based code we're doing is understanding that even if we change what the proposed land use is on something until development happens enough it doesn't trigger and say you can't stay in an existing home or farmland or something you know all it says is once you're ready to develop these are the uses that on So, but I think that's a common misconception with the, you know, with Landy's plan and with zoning is that, you know, if if we zone something commercial and it's a

it's a farmland or it's residential right now, they feel like they're going to, you know, have to No, you don't. It just is when you when the development comes, then that's what has to happen. Yeah. So, okay. But yeah, I mean that'll that'll be a huge part of of why we want to start doing this in January because I mean you guys saw a glimpse of the formbbased code and realized how indepth it goes

way further than any of our current zoning code does. So the neighborhood initiative is going to be a great way to help explain what that code's trying to accomplish in terms of the city and in terms of land use planning. I will make a motion to recommend chapter the changes to chapter 1.04 and chapter 2.02. It's been moved that we recommend chapter the changes to chapter 1 point I know I mean is there a second after I repeat her motion but yeah she said it. Is there a second?

I'll second that. Mark seconds. All in favor say yes. Yes. Yes. I'm excited. Nobody did. We're just recommending it to the council. We can't really celebrate yet. I mean, I'm sure we're [snorts] going to get pretty quick yeses on the It won't be hard. [laughter] I hope so. Okay. Then point B. proposed zoning of parcel 05-060-0089.

That's our discussion. I say absolutely do it. I I think it was like the infield neighborhoods in my neighborhood at least have been amazing. I put in I mean even some of the like multif family stuff that they've put in has just been a really good addition to our neighborhood in spaces that were just not being utilized. So I'd say yeah, we do it. Yeah. Makes sense. I'll make a motion to the council that we approve the proposed zoning of parcel 05600089. The proposed reszoning. Yeah.

Yeah. It's been moved that we we recommend to the city council a reszoning of parcel 05- 060-0089. All in favor? Oh, is there a second? I'll second. Seconded. All in favor of the reasonzoning say yes. Yes. Motion passes. Now, excellent. Point five, public comments and open discussion. Any anything that you saw from this meeting that you liked that you don't like that you or not even this meeting, other things that the city's doing that you don't like?

Don't open that. Keep those keep those short and sweet. 3 minutes. Yeah, please state your name when you get up there.

Russell Thornley. Um I'm the property owner was asked to do the proposed zone chaining. Um I I like your comment the most and as I've attended meetings and I love this lady here. She's also inspired me to to be involved in stuff too. But I I I want to make it clear that I it's been interesting watching both sides of it as a property owner because at the end of the day that's the smallest minority the individual and I believe in property rights. John Lock was an amazing person who our founders based those some of those beliefs on in our constitution. So, at the end of the day, I mean, some of the some of the meetings I've attended, it's it's sad to see other property owners fighting against current property owners in a sense of, well, I was here first and and I I don't like that that's going to come here. At the end of the day, there's always going to be somebody that was here before you, and we can all make the case of, well, I was here first, or they were here first, they were here first, and you can you can go back. I mean, even to the Indians and and before that. So I I guess my point is is that I hope that will always be the consideration. I love that you mentioned that a property rights are individual for the individual is is paramount to the rest of our rights too. And so if a consenting property owner wants to do as he wishes, the mob shouldn't be able to to affect that in a sense. And and I I love that we have laws and rules for that reason. But like you mentioned, that's the only concern I would have about these councils is or these these side things is is if neighbors are uninformed, they make decisions out of fear. And I've seen that in the past and not in just this city. So I hope we take best practices from the things that they're they're comparing to Provo, which is a great idea and and ensure that it's done in a good way that involves everybody. So anyways, that's what I got.

Thank you. Please say your name. Hi, my name is John Alico and uh two things. Number one, the citizen advisory thing. I've I've heard about this now for quite a while. I think it's a great idea. Really glad you guys approved it. Second is that I think the really big thing that you guys got to focus on is the land use plan. That has got to be updated because without that, it's just free game out there. And um that that has got to be a priority in my opinion.

Thank you. All right, let's see. We're going to close the open discussion. [clears throat] Planning Commission comments and reports. Nothing. How was dinner? Awesome. That ain't dinner yet. Oh, I mean the uh [laughter] He met the Christmas dinner. It was that dinner. Yes. Good. Good. Um, everybody made fun of me. Why? Cuz I'm a vegetarian and I went to Maddox for dinner.

Oh, it's fine. Prescatarian. You don't eat fish? You knew that, didn't you? I thought you'd eat at least fish. No, I can't fer on that one. I think it's disgusting. [laughter] Well, I love meat, so I I can falter on that. I I definitely So, well, that's good. Well, everybody have a a merry Christmas. We've adjourned. Oh, we uh I move that we adjourn. Sorry. I'll make a motion. Okay. Andrew's also made the motion to adjurnn. We've adjourned twice. I'll second I'll second that. Yes. Yes, this is why AI does not work for a note