City Council - workshop

that will help our financial situation. This is just another mechanism we can try and save some money.

So if we, Steve, if we did the work to be prepared to go to market, Yes. And do you know about what those are?

So on our last refinance we did, it's typically probably around $50,000 to $70,000. It's not a cheap bill. To get a rating, I would say it's between $30,000 and $40,000. That could be way off, not way off, but it's in that range. Our financial advisor closing is also somewhere in that range as well. So the combined closing costs are $60,000 to $70,000.

I know you said it.

What's our current rate? um when we ran it the 75 was about a month ago in 75 000 savings per year we've seen the rates creep up i think they'd still be in the high three percent range we don't know until we go to market um when we went with this bond on this building we were expecting one and a half percent we got 0.61 which was out of this world awesome i don't anticipate getting anything lower than a

maybe a 3.75 we don't know it's the market changes daily what do you think council so so basically the objective is trying to save the fees are built into that savings so

Um, typically on a refinance, if it's above a 3% savings, it's recommended to do so when, when you fall on that less than 3% savings, it's just not enough to justify moving forward. What we're seeing, you know, eight to 10%, that's, that's a really good, um, savings on the bond. Again, I don't know where rates are going to go. in the next 10 years. Are they going to go lower than a 3.8% or a 3.9%? I don't know. What I do know is it's better than a 4.95%.

That's the thing. When you're trying to guess in the term what the market's going to do, nobody can do that. And so in my opinion, you have to evaluate whether or not the potential savings is worth it to do it in today because none of us know what's going to happen in the next 10 years. We can see nothing. We can see it wouldn't come any closer to 3.75 or 3.5 as well. I'd probably lean towards trying to do it for the cost savings that we do know.

What do we know?

What they provided in the packet. I know, but that's not what

It's, we're risking basically the savings of one year in anticipating that we'll get nine more years of savings out of it. It's a reasonably good chance we will. The only real question is will we get even more? Who knows?

We would have one more bite of the apple in 10 years if there's a 17-year bond remaining. So there's that. TAB, Mark McIntyre:" On this building itself every time we refinance this bond I kept thinking we're never gonna do that again and I kept happening. TAB, Mark McIntyre:" Again I don't I don't anticipate rates are going to fall. TAB, Mark McIntyre:" Much below three three and a half, I it's hard to know again. TAB, Mark McIntyre:" There will be but world world indicators inflation war is pushing this upward a little bit. were added inflation came down did the rates drop yeah how much i'm not sure i knew that i probably would be sitting in this chair i'm with paul it's worth it i mean we're pretty sure we're gonna save

everybody's saying is, could we save more later?

And my opinion is that it makes sense to do it now. Yeah.

If a lower rate came along, we couldn't go for it. The nice thing about this is you're at the beginning of a 20-year bond, so you're going to recognize that savings over the next 17 years. If you're late, I mean, if you waited two years, that's $150,000 that you lost out on.

You might get a better rate.

Could you make that difference with a lower rate? Possibly. But That $50,000 to $75,000 per year is, when you aggregate that together, is a pretty significant savings over the life of them.

Because all we can evaluate is what we know now. I mean, yeah, future could change. But even if it drops, we're still going to realize savings.

We will realize savings.

Well, we hope to realize savings. Well, we would pull the trigger.

It seems reasonable. Yeah. The worst case, I guess, is that you big risk is do you risk a bigger savings later and like Steve said every year you wait is another year you didn't get the savings. Okay well that's enough to have a majority so we will put this forward. At this time all we have to do is authorize Steve to

It would be on the September 8th business meeting. It basically, the council authorizes within certain parameters what you would want to go forward. So you could set where you want the rate to be. And if it didn't fall in that window, then you could say no.

Wouldn't it be in our interest to expedite that?

Well, keep in mind, we can't actually do this till November. That's when our window opens.

Oh, okay.

So I hear what you're saying. It makes sense if we could do it today.

There are some options with advanced funding, but what takes the time is going to get a rating, putting together the offering or official statement, putting that out to the market. Those are the things that take time.

So we will see where we are on the 8th. We'll have more information because we'll have an update with market stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. I'm going to move us on to planning items. We have a couple of planning items. Planning item C1 is an application for pre-application consultation with the City Council. This is regarding property located at 3300 South and 2000 West. We have a representative from that group. Okay, would you come forward and join us at the table? In a pre-application consultation, we invite you in. This is your application. Tell us what you would like to propose to the City Council.

City Council Chambers. City Council Chambers. City Council Chambers. City Council Chambers. City Council Chambers. City Council Chambers. City Council Chambers. City Council Chambers.

like I said, get some direction and input from you before we make a formal application on something.

So we're excited to be here. We've put together this packet. Admittedly, there's probably more that we need to go through here, but I'd rather have some information that we can slide to if we need to.

The packet, it was available to everybody. Everybody had a chance to look at this. We don't need to go through it again. Perfect. It's been seen. I won't then.

I will just use some of it as I discuss and point to some items. So what are your questions for us? So really what we're looking for is just proposed land use types. Obviously there's a general plan in place that you have, a zoning that already exists. Our proposal is that we would rezone the property to a mixed use zone that would be, it would conform with your current general plan. Within that, we propose some townhome usage that we think would buffer well from the Stillwater development. And if you could slide to the concept plan, I think it's two or three slides down. We think that those townhomes would buffer well. There's also a storage component that we're proposing, as well as some light commercials along the frontage of 2000 West.

Did I go past that?

No, yeah, keep going. That's your lead. You should be zoning after there. Next one down. Sorry. residential to the south and to the east you've got the buffer up against west davis highway and the obviously the transition into that light commercial on the north end of this we we love the product we do we've done residential we've done storage we as you've seen in that packet presented images of projects that we've actually built we're not giving you renderings of something that we haven't built we've got communities throughout the state that we can point you to that we plan on doing in this location so to I guess jump to the point we we're just looking for some feedback before we make a formal application okay what's your thoughts on this potential land use so for me I'm not

I'm not interested in a mixed use that has a townhouse component to it. We've had so much townhome development in the city that the citizens have very low appetite for it. And as their elected representative, I will echo that. So I'm not interested in taking a commercial property in a mixed use direction with the town.

All right.

You know, I'm just going to weigh in here and say that I think this property is commercially viable. I think that it's a tragic waste to put storage units in this area. It's got great visibility from the freeway. It's just for reference, Council, this is the same square footage or acreage as the hot triangle. We could get that kind of value out of it. John Gerstle, Here in the city, and I think to dismiss that readily is a huge waste, I agree. John Gerstle, You're not familiar with that that's a code name for us Okay, it is a property that is off and low. John Gerstle, That is going to have five businesses on it, and I think you could put easily put five businesses on this same property and there's. John Gerstle, There's no way you get value out of storage units like you get actual brick and mortar retail.

Well, because you've got easy access to West Davis. Right. And you've got a whole residential area that is not really served commercially. Right. So I think there's huge potential in the commercial. So like I said, for me, a mixed use is not appealing. What types of commercial do you see in the hot triangle?

We have restaurants, three restaurants, a financial institution, and a tire shop. And all of those are good revenue producers. The other thing I would give you feedback on is for our mixed use zone, we have had terrible feedback on barely any retail. You've got a gas station. That's not a mix. This is an excuse for higher density with a gas station.

And I appreciate that feedback. I'll add to that. That light commercial we We recognize that it's not like a field of dream scenario where we just open it up to a new zone and all of a sudden it floods in with users that are ideal, but that does help admittedly.

And so right off the freeway, I think there's got a lot of, it is a good spot.

It's a, it's a great spot for some of that feedback. I would also love from the council is. John Potter, With this discussion and the you know, a potential from a laddie's perspective, we always hear buffering from residents or planning what are we thinking.

John Potter, There doesn't need to be any buffer between because this is pretty dense in our in our city, the stuff that you have directly so water is considered as dense as we walk right now.

John Potter, Now we've we've already we've already got buffering rules. I don't think we need a residential buffer. I understand where you're coming from on self-storage, specifically on sales tax.

Property tax may end up being quite similar to sales tax.

You've got a representative at the table. Sorry.

Can he come up or just one at a time?

One at a time. You got it. Okay. You're making the application. You're making the pitch.

You got it. i think i think that's helpful feedback we we pride ourselves on not saying hey this is all or nothing for us right we want to we this is obviously our first out of things working through a proposal with staff making a best effort with the landowners trying to use our experience and the way things have gone in the different cities that we've worked at so any additional direction

i've heard your feedback and i could try to interpret that but i would love even some more direct here's what we would like if i want to sum up the last year of i would say that there's not a real appetite to do any more mixed use right now it's not helping our city um it's putting a strain on it's putting a strain on our resources and we we have so many units that are not that are in the queue that haven't even been built in their in town homes and so we're going to have this influx so we And at least from my perspective, we've got to just pump the brakes on that and stop putting so much strain on our, on our finite resources.

Is that an infrastructure bottleneck that why, why those aren't?

Yeah, because, because the property taxes that we generate from these types of property do not equate to covering the cost of supporting those citizens.

We're not the ones holding them back. Actually, we have developers who, This is why the ordinance earlier in our business meeting that says that it will revert back if you don't commence building within a couple of years. Because I have stuff that's been on the books 10 years and is entitled to start building. Developers show no interest. So now I've got the possibility hanging over my head that I could have all of this built in one year or none of it. And how do I plan for that? So we're trying to take back the situation where if you say you're going to do it, we expect it to be done. But right now, I still have over 1,000 units that could go tomorrow. And that's a lot for us for one year. We have been the fastest growing city in Davis County for more than a decade. And we don't want to be anymore. We're not against growth at all. We're saying nothing. But we cannot handle being the fastest. the most growth because the taxes are delayed years. We don't get taxes in year one. And it's very difficult to have that kind of size growth.

Well, and so taking a commercially zoned property and putting it mixed use with a heavy residential component is something, again, I thought.

Yeah. If this is commercial, we get sales tax immediately the day they open. We get property tax that is more than just the property of the land. If they've got any big equipment or anything like that, that also is real property. So there are lots of opportunities there. And it's just hard to not preserve the good land that fits what we really want, and that's commercial.

And the citizens that live in that area are anticipating commercial use in that space. And they want commercial use in that space. They want the services that come with that. Like, I'll just say, I just got done campaigning for this office. And everyone I talked to, like, I ran on no high-density housing. And the things that the citizens told me, we don't want storage units. We don't want high-density housing. We don't want any more gas stations. They said mavericks, specifically. And we don't want car washes. Yeah. We're good. You gave us all three of those. The citizens as a large, that was the biggest resonating thing that I was told when I campaigned.

Admittedly, this is a unique piece of property. You've got that parking lot to the north. You've got the existing residential. You've got the corridor on the northeast. We recognize it's kind of weird. There's that weird shape that goes into a triangle. There's some weird play with it. Um, we also recognize it, you know, from our experience, those back corners, those can be tough for commercial user.

Right. It can be, I mean, it just depends on your fit. I mean, for example, on our hot triangle of the code names, it is, it was, they took the back back by the parking ride and put in a tire shop, which they have the visibility, but they don't need to be right there next to something to, to draw people in. And it's a high sales tax. I purchase items, so I you know profitability, so it gets some us, but I think that it has the potential for something very significant.

And that's where we'd love to stay at both right where i'm not walking out of here saying hey we heard we're out right, this is where we'd like to keep the conversation going and.

of what you'd like to see. If you want to reach out to staff, I mean, they can answer questions. They do all day every day. But I think what you're hearing is mixed use isn't a fit for us at this time. It's not a good fit for the city right now. Any other? Anything else? No? OK, thank you for your time. Thanks. I'm going to move us on to item number two of the recommendation. from the Planning Commission regarding application zone change for a property located at 2961 South, 1550 West, residential R2 to A1. This is a down zone. Really strange to have a down zone show up, but that's what we've got. Noah, would you give us a feedback of what the Planning Commission says?

Planning Commission is forwarding a recommendation for approval. We hope public hearing There were multiple people that attended and expressed support. The reason for the rezone is so he can have some pygmy goats.

How many goats can he put on there?

In the packet, I think there are two points apiece, and they've got like 20 goats or something like that.

I thought he had four of them.

HAB-Jacques Juilland, Or yeah pig me go it's only worth two points of peace, I guess, so he had for the were the public comments from the neighbors all in favor and they were all yeah.

HAB-Jacques Juilland, Just kind of strange is usually when somebody wants to rezone so they can have more farm animals. HAB-Jacques Juilland, That usually upsets neighbors, but in this case it did not I actually showed up, I wanted to hear what people had to say and.

I do think it's fair to point out that the reason why this came up, though, is that somebody did complain to the county, and then it's over and then said, Yeah, you're in violation of city code, and that that started that started that started the complaint process right started that either he's going to incur a fee and penalty, or he gets a rezone, which would alleviate because he's not out of the code if he's an A1. He's in compliance. But the surrounding neighbors were there and they said that it's never been a problem.

One of the challenges we have, council, is that whatever you do, and I'm not going to tell you what to do, but whatever you do, it has to be what happens for this in perpetuity. What happens when this individual sells his property? Is A1 the right fit for this property in perpetuity? And What happens if, what could somebody else do in A1? Right now, he's saying this is about goats. But if somebody else buys his property and comes in and says, well, I don't like goats, but I like pigs, or I like llamas, or I like whatever, what does that do to the neighborhood? And is it fine? And it could be. I'm just saying we always have to look at the, we have to look at the extended life of the questions.

HAB-Jacques Juilland, Once once they have the points, they can use them, however, they want according to the table, I will point out that a pig is 100 points and they. HAB-Jacques Juilland, have enough points for. HAB-Jacques Juilland, Okay, so we'll be.

HAB-Jacques Juilland, And that's good.

HAB-Jacques Juilland, that's that's the worst case scenario.

A lot of chickens. Wasn't there something to do about the fact that it has a retention basin on it that they can't develop?

Yeah, half of the property, I mean, they have over a half acre. And part of the property used to be a detention base, and then they were consolidated together. So they can't build any structures in the detention basin. So it is a lot of property to take care of as far as weeds and mowing and stuff. Is it actually a detention basin? I believe so.

We have a maintenance agreement.

Yeah.

Now you've got stuff getting into the water table and you've also got the risk to the animals.

Yeah. The biggest thing is they can't plug up the outfall pipe. They can't like change the capacity of it. And I guess if it was like really bad waste, piles of waste and things like that, that would be a problem. We have a, you know, Daryl Webb, he's our environmental guy. He would get after them and tell them to clean it up. But we're also, we have a maintenance agreement with all basins and we have the ability to go in and do annual inspections, make sure things are going good.

They lose their points if it didn't go well?

They wouldn't lose their points, but it's just, Daryl could impose fines or ask them to clean it up or that sort of thing.

Pick it up two cows.

the property owner also did say that the pigment goats that he has helped to keep the basin clean and the weeds down during the meeting which i'm sure they do because that is a goats do that goats are very good but what do you say i mean i mean do you take the risk here or do you say it's just not worth the risk it totally up to you guys has he already got like 20 goats

Is it nine?

Oh, you're here.

Oh, yeah.

Perfect. What if the goals, you know, populate?

They can only go up to... That's impossible. And they can only go up to the... I mean...

So how many can he have? 20. 20. So you have to consider is 20.

HAB-Jacques Juilland- Can have a half ago so.

HAB-Jacques Juilland- And a rabbit yeah. HAB-Jacques Juilland- yeah.

HAB-Jacques Juilland- I i'm kind of in favor of it, based on the meeting of it, I would support it okay.

HAB-Jacques Juilland- My my biggest thing is, as long as the neighbors are in support, I realized the property can change hands and it gets in there, but. HAB-Masyn Moyer- But two cows and that's two cows or two ostriches.

HAB-Masyn Moyer- So that is the challenge is what do we do if we've allowed it 10 years I guess.

HAB-Masyn Moyer- that's not a good that's not a good way to look at it, I know we can't do an interim race. Well, here's the reason why I like it, guys, is because it's R2, but it's already buffered right next to A1. It's not like we're putting an A1 property in the middle of the neighborhood.

You're putting it next to other A1. Yeah, it's next to other A1.

So it doesn't look weird on the map. It's not like we took a house in the corner in the middle of the neighborhood and say A1 right there.

Yeah, can you do a rezone? You can't temporarily like for the life of the mortgage mortgage, but you require your dollar or if it was sold.

No, that's illegal.

You know, we do have other ordinances in place that you protect the neighbors to a certain extent. There's a noise ordinance and, you know, also a nuisance. We have nuisance like if there's crazy smells and things like that.

And apparently he's fine with that because The neighbors are not complaining. So he's not a nuisance to that. So that's I probably more in favor of it. Okay.

I agree.

All right. So it looks like we have a majority. Brad, if you feel the same, we could put this on consent. But if you feel differently, pull it off.

No, that's fine.

All right. So we'll just move this forward to the consent agenda for the September meeting. And we'll go from there. HAB-Jacques Juilland, let's go to item number three recommendation from planning Commission regarding application for zone change for property located at 2207 1700, this is a one to light commercial.

HAB-Jacques Juilland, As a slight correction planning Commission has not seen this yet. HAB-Jacques Juilland, So you're not considering recommendation because they haven't made a recommendation yet, but we moved it forward just because of the cancellation of the August me. which is a little non-traditional, but we have a public hearing planned for next Tuesday at Planning Commission. So when it comes back, you will have it, and you would also have a chance to review it tonight.

This wasn't, we're calling a whole meeting for one item.

Exactly.

This is why we made it like.

It is why we made it like. It's a long analog. The request is for light commercial, which has a maximum of one story. There's kind of some limited, there's a limit on the types of uses of tire shops or crazy things like that.

What is your smelly?

Consistent with the general plan. There is a house right next door that will be probably the number one property. Customer?

Well, customer or...

HAB-Jacques Juilland- impacted the most. HAB-Jacques Juilland- yeah the applicant says that he doesn't know exactly what he's going to put on there, but he's envisioning something like a dentist office it's a really small site so there's not. HAB-Jacques Juilland- A time to get parking in a building in there there's really not a lot you can do there, this is a surplus property from you.

HAB-Jacques Juilland- The also fit in business. HAB-Jacques Juilland- So.

HAB-Terry Palmos- Dental office, I think, is permitted use in a few different zones yeah.

HAB-Terry Palmos- Would that be a better. HAB-Terry Palmos- intention or is it want to keep it wide open.

HAB-Terry Palmos- The nice thing about like commercial is it has a maximum height, so I think that protects the residents, probably the best fit. HAB-Terry Palmos- But yeah they could go for it, you guys could consider other zones that permit us or thing.

HAB-Terry Palmos- Really just thinking out loud I don't have. HAB-Terry Palmos- Right yeah we created like commercial for this area because of the. Because we knew it would be against residential. So it was created for this purpose. If they want to apply for it, I don't see an issue. But to any of you.

Okay.

So I'm not going to put this on consent because it hasn't been through planning commission. So we want to hear what they have to say before we vote on this. But I'm going to forward this to the September 8th meeting. And hopefully that will go well. That is the last item we have on our agenda tonight. So with no further business,