Planning and Zoning Board - Regular Meeting

Hi, good evening, everybody. Welcome to Planning and Zoning Board. Madam Clerk, would you please call the roll?

Yes, Chair. Chair LaCour?

Here.

Board Member Chavez?

Here.

Board Member Solares? Here. Board Member Pinto?

Here.

Chair, you have a quorum.

Thank you. Okay, let's kick it off with our town liaison, commission liaison, please.

Good evening, Madam Chair, members of the board. I want to tell you that the commission met on April 9th, I believe it was, the second Tuesday of April. We passed two ordinances that have recently been before you, one amending section 90-18 to give the board a role in reviewing any new structure in town with a design component. And we did take out the word significant, as you requested. We also passed the design guidelines, so I'm happy to report. That means that the fully new commission that meets on May 14th will have a clean legislative plate. Those were the last two things pending from the previous commission. So with that, I just want to say thank you. It's our final meeting. It's been a real pleasure and a fantastic learning experience to be the liaison to this board. I've really gotten a lot out of it personally, and it's been really nice working with all of you, so thank you.

Likewise, and thank you for your time spent with us. Okay, I think that brings us to approval of minutes from last month's meeting. Any comments, questions, or motions?

Motion to approve? Yes, second.

Okay, all in favor say aye. Aye.

Aye.

Any opposed? Aye. Motion carries. Okay, are there any comments on the agenda order of business? Anything people want to move around? The only thing I would say is I'd like to put the future discussion items tracker at the end of section eight discussion items, just so we have time to get through the actual items first. Any other comments? Okay. Do I need a motion to make that change?

Yes, Madam Chair.

Okay. Can I have a motion to make that change, please?

Motion to modify the agenda. Okay. Second.

All in favor say aye. Madam Chair, I will need a specific motion. Okay. You're moving 8A to the end of Section 8.

Motion to move Section 8A of the agenda to which part?

The end of Section 8.

To the end of Section 8? Okay. Second.

All those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Motion carries. Okay, thank you. And that brings us to our applications for the evening starting with 8842 Froud Avenue. Madam Planner? Through the chair. I always forget, sorry. Go for it. Thank you.

Tonight's meeting of the Planning and Zoning Board is an in-person meeting as set forth in the Town Code. Applications in Section 5 of this meeting's agenda are quasi-judicial in nature. For each application, following presentation by staff and the applicant, the Board may take public comment, then close public comment, allow for rebuttal by the applicant, and then deliberate on a resolution. The quasi-judicial procedures require this board to consider the evidence presented to it and base its decision on applicable law and primarily the evidence presented, whether by staff, applicant, or the public. The applicable law includes standards for issuance of design review approval pursuant to Section 90-19 of the Town Code. The design standards set forth under Section 90, Article 5 of the Town Code. and the signed code pursuant to Section 90-68, Article 6 and related sections under Chapter 90, Article 7 and 8 of the Town Code as applicable. The evidence considered must be substantial competent evidence, meaning testimony or other evidence based on personal observation or relevant expert testimony that reasonable minds accept as adequate to support a conclusion. The board's conclusions are not to be the result of a popularity contest and may not be solely based on non-expert opinions. Anyone seeking to speak on an item should be given an opportunity to speak. Anyone seeking to testify on any item in Section 5 of this agenda should be sworn before testifying and may be subject to cross-examination. Anyone testifying without being sworn or subject to cross-examination may do so, but such testimony may be considered in that context and given its due weight. The public may not cross-examine witnesses, but may request this board to ask questions of staff or the applicant. Anyone who seeks to testify on any item in Section 5 of this agenda should now rise and be sworn by the clerk.

So if you think you may speak at all tonight, please rise.

Please raise your right hand. Do you swear and affirm to say the truth and only believe the truth? Yes. You may be seated.

Clerk, please confirm compliance with the advertising and notice requirements.

Confirmed.

Members of the board, have any of you had any ex parte communications about any of the applications now before you? No.

No. No. Yes. No. 88, uh, 8842 Froud.

And who did you speak to?

Uh, to the owners.

And do you believe you can still be fair and impartial in considering the application?

Absolutely.

Thank you.

Go ahead, Lib. OK, thank you. All right, now turning it over to our town planner for presentation.

Yes, good evening. The first item tonight is 8842, Froud. Staff has reviewed the application and confirms that it meets the zoning code requirements. The planning board at this time should determine whether the proposed plans are consistent in conformance with the design guidelines per the code. If the board finds they're consistent, staff recommends approval with two conditions. One related to the drainage and grading plan that should be determined to be consistent with code at the time of building permit. And a second condition that at the time of building permit, the home will comply with the town's sustainability and resiliency program as defined in section 9050.1 and will obtain a recognized green building certification based on all applicable standards. This application is requesting a site plan approval for a new 5,000 square foot two-story single-family home at 8842 Froud Avenue. The subject property is an interior lot in H30B, and it's approximately 8,400 square feet. The front facade features exterior design elements, including stucco, coral stone, honeywood, and black aluminum finishes. The rear of the home is similar material as the front and sides. The proposed lot coverage is 3,072 square feet, or 36%, and the floor area ratio is 0.59. Setback calculations for the additional second floor setback are provided and meet the minimum requirements. A preliminary landscape plan has been submitted, and full landscape and civil will be provided during the building permit process. Staff finds this application does meet the zoning code and recommends approval.

Thank you. Is the applicant here?

Hi. Hi again.

Yeah, you two, come on up. State your name and address for the record. And I think it would be especially helpful, since we all spoke last month, if you could focus just on the changes. That'd be great. 100%.

Hi, everybody. I'm Miriam Faginson. This is my husband, Alex Filler. We're both owners of 8842 Froud Avenue. Can I pull up the images? Let's see. You hit on the packet link. It's an old laptop. There we go. All right, so while my husband pulls up the revised plans, first we just want to say thank you so much for your feedback last month. We found it very helpful, and we did our best to really incorporate all that was shared with us. Sorry, it's just taking a moment.

So if you, yeah, you can either scroll through the pages, get to where you want, and then close that pages window. It'll make everything a little bigger.

Sure. Sorry, things seem to be a little bit slow.

Yeah, it takes a second on this Wi-Fi to get loaded. Is the page loading?

Okay, all right, so we'll maybe wanna start at the front facade.

So it's the back.

So OK, well, we'll just start talking. One of the major revisions that we wanted to do was to ensure that the house really fits in with the neighborhood. And so in order to do that, we incorporated coral stone in the front facade. We've also added a lot of green and additional vegetation and greenery to really soften the massing of this house. We also created a more symmetrical front or facade of the house, along with having two driveways as opposed to a circular one to really modernize the facade. We also have created sort of a more welcoming front walkway from the street. Anything else, Alex, that I'm missing there in terms of the front?

Right here.

Yeah so I mean basically we created a more welcoming entrance to the property and also chose the coral stone and the stucco instead of we took all the tile off the previously we proposed to make it more natural look that was a suggested to us and also make it feel more welcoming to the community and all the surrounding houses.

Yeah, and if you remember, we had some black imposing tile and things like that with a big water feature that didn't have any windows, so we really wanted to open up the front of the house. We removed all of that and created some large windows where that once was. Should we move to the backyard, or do you guys have any?

We'll let you make the presentation, and I imagine there will be some follow-up questions.

So here's just another kind of angle. And then in terms of the backyard, we once again focused on sort of reducing that massing and opening up the backyard, including adding in. So before the outdoor dining area was more enclosed here, we really opened it up. We also added the coral stone from the front facade into the backyard just to create some cohesiveness. We also removed some of the more heavy overhangs and things like that for the balconies. in an effort to reduce the massing. We also lowered some of the heights of those balconies as well. So as you can see sort of on the, what is it, the right, left side, you'll see that this sort of, the balcony ceiling drops. Anything else that I missed?

No, again, we want to reiterate that we want to create privacy for ourselves and for our neighbors, and we plan to replant tall trees and also try to keep as many tall trees that we have in the back of the property. So that is our intent and what we're trying to depict in our renderings here.

Could you walk us through that tree disposition plan? Because it looks to me like you're losing quite a number or relocating quite a number of large trees, which I think is...

challenging yeah so if we decided part of this redesign to move the pool a little bit into the corner of the property which I think impacts some of the palm trees but we're also replanting to make sure we create I'm just looking for the right image here I apologize yeah I think you need the tree disposition plan do you have one I believe so no we try to update everything I think yeah

So you've got a pretty big mango that you're eliminating?

Yeah, we're moving it actually to over here. We're planting a new mango tree here. You're planting a new mango tree? Yeah.

Well, are we going to try to save the old one?

We can't, unfortunately. So we're going to have to replant a new one in this corner.

And why are you moving all the palm trees back?

Can you not work around those? We will try. Right now, I think a few of them are in the way, unfortunately. So we're adding more palm trees along the rear property line. But whatever we can preserve, we will definitely keep. We don't want to take anything down that we don't need to.

I think those are all slated to be moved in your current plan. Yeah, so we'll talk more about that later. But I wanted to understand exactly where they were on here. Okay.

But, yeah, again, we took all the advice from last meeting and reduced some of the proportions in the backyard on the second floor. So hopefully that is more pleasant. And we also are thankful for the recommendations. We like the new design a lot better than last meeting.

Okay, thank you. And are you working with an architect on this?

Yeah, we have a designer architect.

Okay. Are they here tonight?

No, they're not.

Okay. Let me open it up to the public, and then we'll continue the conversation. Thank you. George, did you want to speak? Come on up. Should we move?

I think I need to be.

You guys can. Sorry. Oh, George missed the swearing in. Could you please raise your hand?

Do you sign up for him to say the truth and only put the truth? Yes. You may be speaking.

If you want to get this to the front elevation, and then we can get to the back.

The front facade?

Yeah. There you go. Yeah, that one's good, right there. So I understand what the applicant is trying to do with this, the coral stone and the balcony, the terrace and the planting. I think that's all good and I don't want to get too deep into that and let you guys deal with that more in the way you have in the past. But one thing I wanted to point out that I think is kind of a little bit discordant here is that you have the stone that basically comes down to the 10 feet and then you have what looks like a gray stucco below that. And that's kind of incongruous. Typically, you would have the stronger material, the stone lowest, the more rustic stone lower, and the more polished stone above that, and then kind of progressing to lesser and lesser materials. And in this case, you have what's a really nice stone facade landing on top of a painted stucco base. And that's a bit of a concern. I don't know what you would replace it with. I know that by... George, you're talking about the planters?

Yeah. You thought the material of the planters.

Yeah. You know, that stone... If we looked at it, I'm not recommending taking the stone off of the first floor of the house, but typically you would have a strong, rustic stone base, and above that you'd have a slightly more refined material, and then maybe on the second story an even more refined material. And here it's kind of the reverse. So I'm not advocating getting rid of the stone at the first level, but just think about that base, right? And then on the back elevation, I would just, the applicant should really look at that window wall that you have on the back. If you wanna pull it up.

Yeah.

So this is actually a relatively difficult thing to do in South Florida. There's going to be more metal here somewhere than you're looking at. You have two stories of glass, kind of like a lobby to an office building. It's at that scale. Either the horizontals are going to be a lot beefier than they appear here, in which case you kind of probably want them to line up with something because they will be so apparent, or the verticals will be very strong and the horizontals are just basically to carry the glass, and then they would have a strong back of some sort. They're going to be a lot deeper than you think. This isn't going to look just like a lace of slender mullions. I'm not saying don't do that. That's for you guys to talk about. But as I look at this, that would be a concern. But I want the owner to also be happy with what they end up with and not disappointed. Those are my two comments.

Thank you. Anybody else from the public wish to speak? Okay. Seeing none, I'll close the public comment and I'll open it to board members. Who would like to start?

I can take it.

Okay.

Do you want me to take it?

Please go ahead.

I mean, I think this is a completely different house. And I think it's cohesive. I think it's serene. I think that it feels the outside of the house, the front of the house to me feels effortless, which is what I appreciate. I actually agree with... It's also like we talked about this many times, it's that setback as we're writing into the code. I think that if you've used it to benefit the house immensely, you create a garden on the second floor, which I think is the right thing to do. I also think that, I agree with George, I think that it's just a matter of language. I think that you did a lot of work in a month. I mean, this is a massive amount of work, so I think as it comes to I actually like the way you treated all these parterres, all these sort of planters as the house meets. I think that was very successful. I think that what it lacks is a definition of what that material is. I think that, to me, I will continue the coral stone. I will keep on going with the coral stone because that's the right thing to do. And because it's, like he says, it's weird that stone lands on stucco. It doesn't. You know, semantically, it doesn't make sense. So I think it's showing as gray. To me, I would continue with the same coral stone. I also think it's very important to define what the driveways are going to be made out of. I think the driveways need to be made out of, I mean, I just placed in my house this really beautiful limestone sort of Pavers are very slightly rustic. I think there's a little bit of rusticness that you want in that, so it's very soft and very garden-like. I think that, again, it needs to continue with the theme of the coral stone. So it's like the garden crawls up and it becomes a second-story garden. So I think that that's fine-tuning in the details of it. As it applies to the back of the house, I think that... I think it's still a little bit of a diagram, but I think it's a really clear diagram. I think the amount of glass that you have in the metal needs engineering. It needs to be designed. And I think the house needs to become a home. It needs to be layered into... But I think all the hinting of... you know, the wood on the eaves and the wood on the ceilings. And I think every decision you made is, to me, is the right decision. How to break down the massive of this large home. And I think that taking away those fins that you had before and letting that... Fly over with any, I think it's a lot more successful. I think that that terrace on on the left hand side of there, it could also be a jungle up there. It could be another garden up on that on that balcony. So I think you can maximize that. But otherwise, I think that. The house is still somewhere between an intention and a home. I think everything is moving in the right way. I just think it needs to be, all those decisions need to be made correctly. So you keep on moving the house forward into the same sort of process of softening the house and integrating into the community and the green space and all that. But I mean, I'm very happy with what I see overall. As far as taking the mango tree, I don't know anything about that. Other comments? I know you have a huge mango tree in the back of your yard. But otherwise, I think it's...

Okay, let's keep going. Great, thank you. Other comments? Yep, go ahead.

I wasn't in a past meeting, but just the right, I think it's a balcony, or is it a terrace? I don't see the size, but I'm trying to see it here. I know that you said you're going to plant tall vegetation, right? But that balcony is basically facing the neighbor, right? So, well, just keep in mind the privacy and just try to focus on planting something there that brings the privacy.

Absolutely.

I mean, I think that one more thing. I love the fact that you step in the house down, bringing the pool to grade. I mean, I think that that's... This is an example of how you can go up and they come down again. And I think you've made the right choice of stepping down to me and having the pool not in a box sitting in the background with a building sitting in a box and destroying the backyard. And I think you achieve so much more privacy by being lower in relation to your neighbors. Because once you have one of those boxes up there, you're literally eight feet above your neighbors. So I think that this It's also you're allowing a big portion of steel of yard in the backyard, which I think is very nice to see this house still has a backyard.

Okay. Moses or Nicole, comments?

No.

Okay. So I had some similar comments to what George was saying. When I, first of all, let me back up and say thank you for the revisions for working with us. I think this is a much improved version. I still think it has work to be done to fit into the kind of the fabric of our neighborhood. And I say that because I, can you pull up the front? Maybe we can start there. And George helped me articulate it, actually, when he made his comments. But there's this sort of dark gray base from the driveway all the way up that feels kind of very like hard concrete to me and sort of like dark, hard concrete. I'm not sure what that is. So that doesn't resonate with sort of the beautiful light stone that you've now put on the home.

I think we just actually forgot to change the color because we're so focused on the home design. I don't think that that was the color we intended. Am I right, Alex? Yeah.

To be honest, we would just...

It was sort of an afterthought. So the fact that you're pulling it out now, I think, you know, I completely agree. I actually wouldn't want that color. You know, I would want it to be... either the light coral stone or like the light stucco color, right? So that's, you know, definitely not, that was an oversight on our part.

Yeah, and I think, you know, what Carlos was saying makes sense in that they do make some beautiful limestone or coral stone sort of more pervious pavers that you can even have grass coming up in between that would sort of soften that dark, impervious approach to the home.

I think that that part of it is still left as a diagram. It's not designed. That's what I'm saying, that your house is still, it needs one more layer of detailing, especially in those moments.

And then can we look at the back, please? So the double height windows to me also read hotel lobby, hotel atrium at the embassy suites. So I don't know how you resolve that. I think also the proportionality of the little, tiny, narrow, tall balcony on the left to the proportion of the volume on the right is very disjointed. It just makes that little balcony look so tiny. And I don't know how to resolve that. But the proportions of this rear are not... resolved for me. I think what Adrian said about the side facing balcony over your neighbor, I think in general, from what I can tell in the landscaping plan, the side setbacks are going to need much taller plantings to provide that green buffer for the neighbor. Your home is very tall compared to them, and you're basically going to be looking right down into their backyard unless there's a real visual green screen. on both sides all the way down the length of the house. So I would really want to see that. And then, yeah, back to the trees. I'm the tree lady on the board. But I think you can honor the existing trees. little bit better and still get everything you want in this house especially those beautiful tall palm trees that are probably 75 years old at your property line you're not going to be able to relocate those you know that you can't pick those up and move them back three feet so it can you move the pool in three feet and keep all those trees, that would be a huge win for us because we're rapidly losing our mature trees in this town and they're not gonna go back for 50 years. So I would really wanna see a more thoughtful, I mean I think really the tree disposition plan currently reads remove or relocate everything on the site. And I think, I'm not an expert, but looking at the overlay of this proposed site plan, you can actually, Design around at least those rear trees and I think the mango tree too if I'm not if I don't I'm not Right in the middle Also just to make a quick comment about the palm trees Yeah, the previous owner told us that they grew pretty quickly for them.

I don't know what type I'm not an expert but we're hoping we're gonna replicate with the same if we're gonna plant new ones They're gonna go back pretty quick as well, but you're moving them like two feet.

I

Right there a bit more the way the reason why we were having issue with it now the way we understand it is because they're Like five feet into the property line if they were on the property line it would be an issue But they were planted a bit more into the yard and that's kind of impacting can we see the site plan?

Because there's also some really cool ways where the decking can go around them, you know like I don't know if they're in the deck or in the pool, but you know, it'd be a really cool feature to be able to keep those and

This is the current layout. As you can see, these palm trees are pretty much... Like in the middle of the yard. This is based on the survey we did of the trees.

Yeah, it's hard to tell because your house, that's not your proposed house, right? This is existing.

Right. So if you could see the property line back here and see how far in...

They'll be right where the pool is.

Yeah, that's the problem.

They're kind of in the middle of the yard.

And this is the mango tree right here, which unfortunately is going to fall into where we want to put living space.

Do you have a superimposed on the existing?

What do you mean by that?

So I can kind of eyeball it from that.

Yeah, well, you can deal with that. They're all within buildings. The palm trees are where the pool is and the other big trees where that terrace is.

Yeah, I think the pool could come back a little bit and save them, but... And then the mango tree is somewhere around. Yeah, I can see the mango tree. So you're mitigating that mango tree by planting another one, and that's that tree here? Okay. Yeah, we just want that to be a sufficiently large, you know, not like the sapling that's going to take... We love it. We don't want to take it down.

We tried to keep it, honestly. I caught him on it, so...

So those are my comments.

I want to say one more thing before we continue. I think that what I meant about the I think that what the house needs, especially if you can go to the back of the house where right now, I don't have an issue with the amount of glass that you have of it. It's just right now, it's very storefront. You know what I mean? It looks commercial. It has sort of a rawness to it that it doesn't look, that's what I meant to it. To me, it's a diagram. It's not engineered properly still for a home. We can't even tell what opens, what doesn't. The next step is to me is to, for example, in that back, because that back of your house is facing west. This is west facing elevation. I mean, the sun you're going to get out of there is just, it would be unbearable. So I think that perhaps that whole glass needs to be treated with, you know, with a, with another wood feature in front of it, so it's louvered, so it's manipulated, so the house goes into the more tropical language and not another layer that gets added to it. It gets engineered in a way that it becomes a tropical house. Because right now, it looks like it's a car dealership. You know what I mean? It looks like you're going to sell cars in there. I'm not offended by it, because I think it's just not engineered yet. I think it's still a diagram. I do like the fact that it's, before you had it off to one side with a little bit of, I love the fact that it goes across the hallway. I just think it needs to be designed. It needs to be engineered, and it has to be layered. And I think you need to look at the possibility of maybe having wood louvers across the thing, so something you can play, because the light in there is going to be unbearable. That's what I think it needs. The whole house needs one step up into, I mean, it's amazing what you've done in a month, but I'm just saying it still needs one layer of design to soften everything, the details, the edges, the wood. But I think as far as the massing, I mean, I think it's a miracle what it's done in a month. But that's what I'm saying. It's still missing one layer of fine-tuning and designing the house.

Okay. So what is the board's question?

One question. Are the frames black color, or are they the windows, like the frames? Yes.

I think it's currently shown as black, but I think we're also considering bronze.

Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, because it would look better, right? Yeah, no, it's bronze.

They look black in the rendering, but yeah. Okay. Any other questions from the board? Is the board ready to make a motion?

I'm ready. Are you ready?

Make your motion. See if you get a second.

I mean, I think we should make a motion to approve with a few of these conditions that we spoke about. Are you okay with that?

Does anybody want to second that motion?

I'll second that motion.

Okay, any discussion? I mean, I'm a little hesitant. There's some pretty big changes, especially that window wall that I'm surprised you don't want to see come back. But if there's a majority on the board that are comfortable with that, then let's...

I mean, I think I have... I mean, it's a leap of faith because I know the work and I know where they want the house to head towards. So I think that it's going to be done. So, I mean, I think if we make it a... What are the conditions you're proposing? I think the conditions that need to be... I think that window wall in the back needs to be... It needs to have a layer of wood. It needs to be... There has to be a layer added to that so it doesn't look like a storefront. So it has to be engineered that way. And I think that the front of the house needs... That whole gray area needs to continue with the stone. It has to be the same stone, the coral stone, the pavers has to be stone, the whole thing is a stone. I think that, I mean, I would be okay with that.

I would add that the side setback vegetation needs to be all the way along the side of the full height of the house.

Yeah. And I think that balcony needs some protection from the neighbor. That is a Juliette balcony. It doesn't look at Romeo down below. So, I mean, I think that there's some.

Are those the conditions? Do those comprise everybody's satisfaction?

I just have a question.

I'm satisfied with that.

so Carlos you said for that big window wall how do you picture the wood like

I think that the glass needs to set further back into that opening, and then another layer of wood needs to be added, like louvers. You can't have plain glass like that in the West. It's just... It's not realistic. You can't do it. I mean, you wouldn't be able to sit inside that house. You'd be cooked, even with air conditioning on. So I think it's pretty much safe to say that if we veil that whole back with a system of louvers that needs to be done, so it's that added to the house, so it becomes a tropical house where you can control the way the light hits that, especially because it's west-facing. I think that it's going to change the whole house. It's going to become a tropical-looking house. It's not... You know, it's going to get the layer because I think they've done a good job with all the ceilings with the wood, and it's already going in that direction. I just think it needs one step further, and I think they will achieve it.

Okay.

And are you okay with that?

Yeah, we're okay with that.

Okay.

We don't want to cook.

Yeah, you're bringing up good points, so. Okay.

And they're committed to a beautiful house, so I'm sure that, you know, I think that they will do it, so.

So we have a motion to approve with staff conditions and the following conditions by the board, addressing the window wall in the rear elevation with wood louvers, addressing the front elevation gray base with stone, and ideally pervious stone in the driveway, and adding trees or vegetation in the side setbacks to the height of the home. Madam Clerk, please call the roll.

Madam Chair, if I may, remember Aparicio had mentioned his motion regarding something about the balcony. I was going to go back and ask, what was his?

No, that hits the whole idea of the green that needs to be higher. The side vegetation. The side vegetation. It's the same thought. All right.

Board Member Aparicio?

Yes.

Board Member Chavez?

Yes.

Board Member Solares? Yes. Board Member Pinto?

Yes.

Charlie core.

Yes.

Okay.

Good luck guys. Thanks for working with us. Okay. Let's go move on to 89, 19 Harding Avenue.

Madam Chair, before we proceed, I have forgotten to state regarding the noticing for 8919 Harding Avenue. I forgot to put into the record that their receipt for their noticing did not have the date that it was sent on the actual receipt, but it did have it on their envelope. So I just wanted to say that on the record. OK.

we're going to have our town planner present the item and then we'll call the applicant forward thank you yes staff finds the application meets the zoning code requirements and at the time of building i'm sorry and we would like to propose approval if the board um so chooses to that it conforms with the design guidelines staff has a couple recommendations one is that a drainage and grading plan is reviewed and determined to be consistent with the code at the time of building permit and also at the time of building permit the home will comply with the town's sustainability and resiliency program as defined in code section 9051 and will obtain a recognized green building certification based on all applicable standards this applicant is requesting a site plan approval for a new 1830 square foot one-story single-family home at 8919 Harding. The subject property is 5,750 square feet. The front facade features exterior design elements, a CMU wall with smooth texture stucco finish, white alabaster matte black details, silver natural stone finish, and the rear of the home is consistent with the front and sides. The lot coverage and floor area ratio requirements are not applicable in the zoning district of H30. However, the applicant is proposing a floor area ratio of 0.32 and setback calculations for the first floor setback are provided and meet the minimum requirements. A preliminary landscape plan has been submitted and a full landscape and civil plans and the proposed accessory structure will be provided for review during the building permit process. With that, Staff Meckerman's approval for this new home. Okay, thank you.

Would the applicant wish to speak? Great. And if you wouldn't mind, since we saw the item last month, if you could please identify the specific changes, that would be helpful. Absolutely. If you would just state your name and address for the record.

My name is Aaron Fishman. The address is 8919 Harding Avenue. I am with Tech Construction. I'm here on behalf of the owners, Alex and Eric. Before we begin, I'd like to introduce the team today that's going to go through all the different design, legal, all different elements of the project. Representing the owners on the legal side is George Diaz, who will begin by putting on the record the zoning compliance, permitted use, and the owner's affidavit confirming this is a single-family residence for private use. From there, we'll walk the board through the updated design and materials. Joining us on the design side is Lisa Moses, with Sourced Interiors, a project designer, who will be available to speak to the architectural elements, materials, and overall design approach. Also part of the team is Dario Herrero, the architect with DDSM Consulting, who are here as well and can address any architectural or technical questions if needed. Following the previous hearing, we took the board's feedback seriously. We went back, we grouped with the full team, and made sure to address the concerns that were raised, especially around the exterior design, material clarity, and how the home fits into the neighborhood. What we're presenting tonight is a refined and fully coordinated proposal. The design is grounded in a traditional South Florida material palette, stucco stone, and metal detailing, while keeping a clean and cohesive look. We've also taken an extra step to make everything very clear by providing a fully detailed material package so there's no confusion in what's being proposed. Zoning level the project meets or exceeds all applicable requirements We're here today fully prepared aligned and ready to walk through the design with you answer any questions and move this forward With that I'll turn it over to our attorney George Diaz Good evening board.

My name is George Diaz. I'm with the law firm of Diaz Royce and targ And my there are addresses 100 southeast 2nd Street suite 3,400 by Florida 3 3 1 3 1. I I wanted to start off by just mentioning some of the things that the city attorney opened up with her comments regarding what the board's decision must be based on. And as you know, the board's decision must be based on applicable law and the evidence presented here tonight in the application. And the evidence considered must be substantial, competent evidence. Now, the substantial, competent evidence that's going to be presented here to the board tonight is the single-family residence application. the single family residence renderings, the single family residence site plan, the single family residence survey, the landscaping plan, the single family residence letter of intent, the owner's affidavit certifying that all work will be performed in compliance with zoning and construction laws, and the declaration of the owner certifying that the use of the property will be for single-family residence purposes only, residential use only. And, of course, there's our photos of the surrounding neighborhood homes to show compliance with the single-family residence features and design elements of the house. There will, of course, be additional information and supporting documents to go along with the application. Now, the reason I make that such a point is because As you know, the board's decision is going to be based on substantial competent evidence. But last time this item was before the board, there was a lot of discussion about the potential use of the owners and that the property might be used as a clubhouse or clubhouse purposes or something to that effect. Well, I wanted to point out to you that that use and owner's use of the property is not something really for the zoning board to be considering. And I wanted to quote to you a third DCA case, which is a third district court of appeals case. That's the district court of appeals for Miami-Dade County is a case of Richard Road Estates LLC versus Miami-Dade County Board of County Commissioners. And in that case, the court says that a zoning authority's insistence on considering the owner's specific use of a parcel of land constitutes not zoning, but direct government control of the actual use of each parcel of land, which is inconsistent with the constitutionally guaranteed private rights of the property owner. So I say that so that when you make your determination and when you're considering this application tonight, that you base it on the substantial competent evidence in the application not on some speculative perspective or they might use the property for a clubhouse use or they might use the property for some other use that's not within the purview of the zoning board so when you consider this application tonight and as you're having discussions and conversing with the applicants and the architect and the other professionals that are here tonight I want you to keep that in mind and if for some reason you cannot approve this application or approve it with conditions for some reason the board is inclined to deny the application, we ask that you state the specific reason for that denial, what section of the code that you're referring to as your reason for denying that application, and what design features you feel are not complied with in this application that you are deciding not to support the application for. So with that in mind, I thank you for your time. I pass it over to Tom.

Thank you very much. Now that the use and zoning compliance have been established, I'll walk the board through the updated design. So if everyone can turn to the first page. Do you guys have booklets? Were booklets provided to you? Okay, perfect. We'll open it on the screen as well. I'll keep this brief on page one. This outlines the design intent. The goal was to create a home that fits into the surf side using a traditional material palette while keeping the design clean and cohesive. I'm just gonna briefly go through the pages to guys give you just a narrative on what each page is. And then I'll have Lisa, our designer, give a statement and walk you through all the elements of all the items that we have proposed. Page two, we have Sorry, just give me a second, please. So page one, which is the cover, gives you basically the side angle profile, which we have in the book, but it's not here on the screen. And then when you go to page two, you'll see the front profile of the home. We move on to page three, which gives you the, I'm guessing the book limit is different than what we have online, so I'll briefly just go through what we have online, and then we'll be able to address everything else. This is the view at night of the property. This is the side view of the home. This is the night view of the side of the home. Give me a second. This is the back of the house by day. Here we have it pictured at night, so you guys get to see exactly what the windows look like and all the elements. And then I want to address a couple of the items that you might not see on the screen, but you would see in the booklet. So I'll have Lisa Moses come up, please, our project designer.

Good evening. Good evening. I'm Lisa Moses. I am the designer for 8919 Harding Avenue. And I am here tonight on behalf of our client. And I appreciate the opportunity to speak to you all. I spoke last time. And as Ari mentioned, last time we presented, There was a lot of feedback on the look of the house and how the house related to the environment So we have gone back taken all your feedback and changed completely the direction of the home And if you look at a before and after in your booklet, we have the before and after on the very last page. So we made substantial movement changes at the suggestion of the board. I want to walk you through some of the design principles of 8919. So when we went back to the drawing board on the house, We looked at the dialogue of Surfside, past and present, what's being built in Surfside, and we used that as the baseline for the project and the property. The architecture is defined by clean horizontal volumes, flat roof lines, establishing a modern framework. to bridge both new and old historic Surfside. When you review and you drive through Surfside, we wanted it to meld into the environment. Based on its location, what the client is looking to do is substantially elevate the environment through through architecture, through landscaping, through its entire materiality. So the palette itself is drawn from early Spanish architecture. We went with a soft, warm white. We did quartzite stack stone cladding on the home's volumes on its linear articulations. You got it? You have it? Move it? That's OK. That's OK. We wanted to make sure it was cohesive in the neighborhood with all of the lines and all of the volumes. Our material selection is the home's primary material is stucco. And we went, again, soft white. The stacked stone is in a mixed neutral tone of warm white, grays. And then we have a matte black trim to match Stay in cohesion with the windows, so when you're looking at it from a 360 view, everything carries the same materiality and color throughout the entire home. Is that a metal trim or a painted? It's painted. It's a painted trim. But the aluminum, the windows are black. They're a matte black metal trim. So we have downgraded the level of materiality to make sure that it was sophisticated but not elaborate. The aluminum stairs, we're looking to add a custom stone sculpture to the front of the home if approved by the zoning board. We end the front of the home with a very warm walnut wood door, so it brings in, again, bringing in the... Can you see the door? Yeah. Great. Great. Your computer, bear with us. Keep going, keep going. One more, one more. There we go, there we go, perfect. We made sure that the lighting, all the lighting elements would respect the code and respect that day to night, that there would not be intrusion and that the lush landscaping that the client and the commitment to native Florida landscaping that the client has committed to is substantial. So in the back of the, if we go to the rear, the east facade, which is very hidden, but the east facade, we did opt for, And we're conditionally completely open if the zoning board prefers a natural stone. We did opt for Decton. And the reason being is that the material of Decton is used in ultra luxury high end projects. And we love natural materials. But what this does is it will never from the east view look degraded and um what what is ducton it is a the so the deckton material the actual makeup of the material let me tell you it is quartz glass and porcelain combined and if you look on the boards here madam chair the speaker news would be speaking to a microphone the natural effect of the stone.

We're going to lose that. Victor, it's going to fall.

Madam Chair, if I may really quickly. If I can please ask the speaker to state their address into the record. They didn't do that earlier.

Oh, I'm sorry. 3201 Northeast 183rd Street, Aventura, Florida.

Thank you.

Of course. So from a design perspective, we're completely open to any questions, comments, suggestions to the materiality of the home. Great. Thank you. Of course.

Okay, let me open it to public comment, and then we'll turn it over to the board. George, I see you standing. Come.

Welcome. Thank you.

George Kouselis, you want to move it to the front elevation? Thanks. George Kouselis, 9225 Collins Avenue. Set aside whether it fits in or whether it, this is a one of a kind property and it's very elegant, right? It reads more like a pavilion. It's far smaller. than the houses we typically look at, but it's also on the east side of Harding. It's just kind of the way we might treat bayfront houses, right? They're, as often has been said, they're kind of a special animal and the eye to looking to The interior, the infield lots, as it's sometimes called, to apply those standards to the waterfront lots just isn't right. They are their own special animal, and so is this one here. It's up and down. It'll likely, its neighbors over time and already are multifamily buildings. So I think you need to judge this for what it is, and I read it as a very elegant pavilion. The materiality, the scale is really nice. I like the asymmetry through most of it. So just to nitpick, if I have to, just to find one thing to nitpick on, it might be the entry. That there's so much good stuff going on with the thing that all of a sudden we have the symmetry, the strong things on either side of the front door, and the handrails. And this is really getting nitpicky here. It doesn't... Vitiate the the overall quality of this thing to me, but that would be one thing I would latch on to to kind of refine that and Not make it look so symmetrical. It looks more like a nice entrance to a very elegant brownstone, but of course the building behind it is this more asymmetrical somewhat Barcelona pavilion esque thing so

i like it i hope you would approve it with some attention to maybe the entrance that's my point of view thank you thank you any other speakers from the public i can't really see so i'll assume no um you want us to move no let's keep those up there thanks um okay can you take can you take these boards down a few of them because it's it's very weird to speak to she that's what she just offered

Yeah, just at least so we can see you for head on. Thank you. That's enough. I mean, we have. That's good.

Thank you. Okay, so let's bring it back to the board for comment.

Well, just my first comment, because of the lawyer's remarks, for me personally, I need more time to then review this in order to make comments.

Okay.

I'll take it. Okay. Okay.

I think that if it's a home or it's not a home, I mean, it's a home as much as I'm Chinese. I don't think it's a home. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. We're going to accept it's a home, and that's it. We always accept that it was a home. We have to make it be domestic since it's a home. Whatever use it's going to have, that's outside of my understanding. The thing is strange, but it needs to sit like a pavilion in, because it's part of a garden, because it's adjoining that whole. jungle that has been created, which I actually love. I think it's very beautiful. So I'm actually on your side in the sense of I love the green and the garden. I think it's, Harding is not the, it's one of the ugliest streets in our community and I love it. I think it's beautiful. Whatever activity, it's outside of, I'm going to say it's a home, it's a home. I actually think that the thing I'm a little bit disturbed, but we're going to work with what's here. One of the things I'm a little bit disturbed with is the front. I like the pavilion side of it. I don't like this stone. I hate that stone. I like it when it was smoother and more ethereal, more like the Barcelona Pavilion, more modern. I think that rustic stone is too heavy and too Fred Flintstone for the building. I think a smoother stone will be much nicer, because the building is about planes of glass and surfaces. And this is too rustic. It doesn't go. I think the band of darkness around crowning everything is a little bit heavy, and it's a little bit unnecessary. But what I'm going to get to, when I look at the- Carlos, can I ask you one question on that?

Yes. Would you look at it from a, so we took, especially your comments at the last meeting- Yeah, I don't shut up, so. Very, very, we heard you. with the black on the perimeter, would you consider if we moved that into?

I'm going to get to a lot of things. I think that you want this house to open more to the garden, more than to Harding, because I would imagine this house is connected to the garden, to the green. it's gonna be enjoyed more coming from the garden into the side of the house more than the harding side of the house. Do you know what I'm getting at? Yeah.

I think that that had to do somewhat with the way the lot and where we had to have, and I can let the architect speak to that, but the setbacks.

I'm gonna get to a lot of details of the house. When you look at the side of the house, what bothers me the most is that pilaster in the corner. That heavy column that sits there in the corner with that second piece of black that is over, I think that's completely necessary. I also think that, I agree with George, the whole setup of the front door is a miss. I think that the front door, because I'm not In an attempt to make it a home, you created this hokey front door that it doesn't fit with the sensibility of the rear and the side, which I think is a lot nicer because it's more pavilion-like. It's more expanses of glass, more ethereal. This is just like a hokey, you know, like stoopy thing with this ugly railing, and it's just hokey. It's hokey.

to see the steps expanded?

I think it's somewhere in between the two.

It's the last time the steps were too large. I think the steps...

I think in your attempt to make it look domestic and make it like a house, you became cute. And I think that I agree with George. This house sits outside of the realm of regular houses because it's such an anomaly in the town. And I want it to exist. I think it's a great addition to it. I'm not against it in any mean. I love the garden. I really love that. I mean, hopefully someday I'll get to enjoy it too. But I'm just saying. I'm trying to push the house more to a pavilion side of sensibility. So I think in your attempt to try to please us in making more housey, you know, looking more like a house, you did this cute sort of entryway that I think it kind of overdid it unnecessarily. Because I think the house, this doesn't really need a front door to Harding that way.

It has to have one by code.

No, no, no, I know, I know, but I'm just saying... the little sculpture. I think the two little windows, one is a window to a bathroom, which is like, one is a window to a bathroom, the other one is a window. So I think that I'm trying to clean up, going back to cleaning up the I'm trying to tell how I feel about it. I think that, again, if we start eliminating that band on the second tier band that is so necessary because it doesn't do any service and it's overkill, and those heavy rusticated sort of stones, I think the pavilion needs to be more like a

planes more planes and would love to we would love to change the materiality at the you know as a conditional approval that we would change the materiality on and take in the comments we have no problem we actually would have preferred that but it was based on

the prior meetings that- There's a little bit of understanding in our part because we're trying to make it fit within how we guide ourselves to try to judge these things. This house is an anomaly in the town. So I want it to be more of an anomaly. I want it to go back a little bit more to what it used to be before. The front have a front door, but be more plain and So it doesn't have this, and also this step. You know, when you do a stoop with two railings on the side, there's no way around, that's always ugly. There's no way around it, because it's, I think that the whole, maybe those steps need to wrap around and go to one end.

We actually had that in one of the iterations.

Yeah, we do have another version of it that we can present.

Let us get through the comments, because I want you to have everything, and then let's continue the conversation.

I think the stucco, I mean, you want this to be a little jewel, okay? Because you were going to spend a lot more money in the first round than this round. It was more expensive the first time you showed up to it than this one.

Much.

So this is cheaper version than the first one. Much. So since you're willing to spend money, I think that- When you have the expanses of stone, I think that you need to deal with more of slabs of stone with a pattern, something elegant and beautiful, more like the Barcelona Pavilion, something a little bit more exquisite, a little bit hokey.

To replace the stucco or just adding elements to that?

I think the stucco could be mixed with pieces of stone. Whenever you want to do the rustic stone, I don't particularly like that thing in the corner because I think that's really heavy handed and ugly. You want the building to turn the corner. So I think that whatever you have, the stone, the russicated stone, I think that to me, I would clad the building with a coral stone or something. The building is a pavilion in the garden. You're creating a beautiful garden. I think that this needs to feel not like a house in Homestead. It needs to look like a beautiful pavilion in the garden and i think that if you use materials like coral stone and bronze and and warm woods and it's gonna it's it's gonna be a pavilion in the garden so right now it looks somewhere between uh it went into like a weird domestic sort of mismatch of and try to try to help trying to make it fit into the home vocabulary i think that you overdid it. But I think that I don't mind the clear story on top. I think that the whole frame and the double frame needs to go. I think it should just be simple. It just has to be a pavilion. I think that you need to clean up Don't do that heavy thing, crowning of bronze, because it makes the building look cheap. I think it has to be more delicate. And I think that this side, get rid of that corner thing and clean up that whole front door. And to me, maybe the front door needs to be wider and more like a panel that opens, kind of like a pivoted panel. We plan on a pivot. Maybe that bathroom doesn't need that window. You don't need to open a window in the bathroom. I don't know, you put a skylight on the bathroom or something. And try to figure out so that bedroom maybe has a window to the side and not to the front, not to Harding. I think it needs to be really quiet and minimalist and very clean. And then that stairs- So similar to what we had before. A little bit, a little bit more, yeah.

So let's give other people a chance to.

Sure. I'm trying to pinpoint it.

Thank you, Carlos. Moses, thoughts?

Yeah. In the front facade of the house, I know that we're typically not the biggest fans of the lights that are used there, the types of strip lighting. If we can just try to find some sort of alternative, maybe hanging them, or not hanging them, but recessing them.

Sorry, can you, where?

The LED lighting is.

The LED lighting in the front.

The vertical sconces.

Yeah, it's not compatible with our design guidelines. Okay.

Yeah. Would you consider just lighting in the overhangs?

I think that this pavilion needs to be lit from down up. You don't need any lights on any surface. It has to be like a little pavilion that floats at night in a garden.

We can do minimal lighting on the overhang just for safety.

No. No, no overhang.

So may the speaker come? Please speak into the microphone. Yeah. And one thing I would just add, you may have heard at the beginning of the meeting that we just recently passed our new design guidelines. And I hope that you guys have had a chance to look at those because I think there are a few elements here, and I can get to them if we don't go through them, that are not quite

compatible so I'll point those out but I want to give everybody else a chance as well Nicole Adrian anyone else wish to speak I mean I just um the front of the house is just what gets me the smaller window and the larger window and the black and I agree the front stoop with the two railings don't like railings but Yeah, I mean, I agree with every comment Carla's made.

Okay.

I think this needs to be double doors, maybe. I just don't understand that little door with the window.

We definitely have place for a bigger pivot door, but doing a double door, the foyer in the house doesn't allow us to do it, but we can still do a substantially big-sized door to allow that grand entrance look onto Harding. Okay.

Adrian?

No comments.

Okay, so let me just put my two cents out there, and then we'll help you wrap it up. So there's three things that I'm noticing. I share the same feeling about the front. It's just not cohesive. So 360-degree architecture is one of our core values in Surfside. And I feel like when you look at the front, it doesn't sort of map to the rest of the structure. And I think what I'm hearing is people prefer the rest of the structure, and we need to bring more of that look and feel to the front, that the front is not in keeping with the same concept. So that's the 360 degree architecture. I think the lighting, I'm glad somebody pointed it out, we definitely want to get that to be more compatible with the lighting design guidelines that are published. No strip lighting, more up lighting, yellow lighting, and I think it would look beautiful.

We do everything in 2700.

Perfect. And then the material coherence. So the coherence of the materials chosen. I agree with the comment about the stone. I think, and I would recommend sort of somewhere in between where you started and where you got to. I think the pendulum swung a little bit too far over here. And if we can get it back somewhere in the middle, it's going to be perfect. So generally those are my thoughts. And I think, you know, when you look at some of the side elements, I'll leave it at that.

I'm going to make one suggestion, so it's very punctual. I think when it comes to the front door, if you want to enter the house on, I mean, did you want to enter the house on Harding?

There's going to be an entrance.

Okay, so there's going to be an entrance warning. So one way of handling that stoop that you need to get up there, I think that because you have that grade up on the left hand side, I think that you can terrace maybe this corner in couple times so the steps are linked into some kind of terracing. So you don't end up getting that stoop with that railing. So you step that whole corner. So this corner. is terrace so you can landscape in levels and you have a garden at the corner and the steps become just a continuation of of the planter and you don't get that stoop with those two railings i think that that's almost the opposite of the way it was in the last projection can you speak into the mic please sorry in the last uh

design that was presented, there was some sort of... To the right. It was to the right, and now you're just asking that we do it on the left side?

I'm using that berm that you have on the side so you can terrace around the corner. And I think that you need to go into... You know, the house is broken down into planes. The back is taller, and it's one plane. Then you have the center body, and you stucco. I would suggest that something you can do with the side, with that stucco, with the skinny window, which I don't mind. I think that maybe you can have an ivy growing on that wall. So maybe this pavilion becomes, you know, you have a wall of green on there. I think that the green of the garden needs to go up on this pavilion. So I think that having a wall of green on that, because that's the one that faces the garden, I think it would be really beautiful instead of just this big, like, you know, like stucco wall. You can have ivy on it and then wrap around with terraces at the corner. And to me, I would just take that Second tier thing, take that corner out and maybe just make a plane. Just all maybe all and then just the door is just a panel that you push and it's completely pavilion like and less domestic. The lighting needs to be lit. on all up lighting up so it's like a little pavilion and nothing not no i mean you can light up up that stop on there but we don't want pinpoint and no sconces you don't need sconces in this house this house is not about sconces plus we don't really want to see this so we would um we would welcome these changes uh we actually

had many of them, and then we stripped it down even further. We actually, Carlos, in one of our iterations, we actually had a green ivy wall on the actual iteration, and we felt that the zoning board may not embrace that, so we actually stripped it back. We actually took the materiality substantially down to try to please the you know the board so we would welcome making all of these changes on a conditional approval and we have absolutely no issue whatsoever doing them to please the zoning board okay thank you um other comments questions for a motion i do have one additional comment to me just for clarification um

Regarding the location of the AC unit, is that going to be visible?

It can't be visible. It won't be visible. The zone doesn't allow it to be visible.

Okay, just making sure.

We followed every code. Okay.

Okay, board members, what is your wish?

I mean, I think that... It's up to you guys, but I think that we itemize the changes and make them very clear changes that we're expecting to see. I don't know, it's up to you guys. I think we've pinpointed the changes that we want to see, but it's not for me to decide.

Well, it is for us to decide. We need to make a motion. Our options are to approve, deny, or defer. What is the will of the board?

Madam Chair, the client is willing with their team. They have invested a tremendous amount into the beautification of Surfside, and they are very, very committed to that. And when you're driving up and down Harding Avenue, what the client and what the owner has done is really contributed to the environment. That's all they're looking to do is to contribute to the, you know, we all in every portion, Val Harbor, Surfside, it's all becoming a very concrete jungle out there. And that is the opposite of what they're looking to accomplish. And they're very, very committed to this. And they have put in so much time, so much effort, so much resource into doing this that providing a conditional approval, we would work diligently to make sure that The changes requested were met, and we would not move forward without that. But the length of time and invest, they just want it to come to fruition, and they would ask for a conditional approval if you felt that appropriate.

We hear you.

Okay.

Okay, so anybody else have a thought, motion?

I think because of the multiple changes that they need to make, and I think it should be represented again for the board to review.

Okay, what does this side of the dais feel?

I mean, we're not going to be here, so yeah.

Yeah, we're not going to be here.

I mean, we're not going to be here, so that leaves it in limbo.

And that would also, if we don't implement your changes, what you're telling us to enact, could then be put into another round. So if we are committed to an approval with condition, then we can make sure that this stays how you would like to see it versus it going completely back to the drawing board again.

Okay, Nicole and Adrian, we have sort of a vote to defer, a vote to approve with conditions. I need your input, please.

I'm not able to make a motion.

So as I mentioned, I'm abstaining this time.

Okay, Nicole?

I mean, I think we make a list of conditions, but it's a long list at this point. Okay. Very specific.

I hear two for conditions, so let's take a shot at that.

Are you who would like to the landscaping is great, but the building is nowhere near. So it's a long list of conditions. We have no problem.

Yeah, if I can add again, I want to simplify this building as much as we can. So we don't keep on going around. I think that we never had an issue with the side of the building. We never really had an issue with the back of the building. I think that We have issues with the materials of the buildings, and we have a bigger issue with the facade onto Harding. So I think if we can pinpoint very succinct five things that we want absolutely changed on it, I think that we can get it. I will be comfortable with moving it forward because I really don't have an issue so much with the massing or the back. I don't have any issues with the building. It's very much surface. So I think that... And your commitment is so large to this that I'd be willing to, you know, get those conditions.

Okay, let's go ahead. So why don't you make a motion to approve with conditions?

I'm going to make a motion to approve with conditions.

Madam Chair, I apologize if I may. I believe that the town attorney has something that she would like to share with the board. Okay.

I believe I heard one of the board members say that he's abstaining from the vote. For what reason?

Because the lawyer mentioned that we needed to present more details for bringing our comments in. So I need to review more comments because I still think that the future of this property will be used for commercial use. So maybe we need to explore having a special hearing or a rezoning, maybe. But that's why I'm not voting, because I don't have that information.

Okay, then really your vote isn't abstaining. Your vote would be against whatever motion is presented.

Do I have to say you have a positive or... You're here present.

Unless you're conflicted, you need to vote.

Okay, I'll vote, but I didn't want to affect the process. Okay, I'll vote.

It's okay. You'll vote against... approving it with conditions.

Well, he'll make his own vote. Let's just move forward. Member Aparicio, can you please restate your motion?

I apologize, Madam Chair.

I make a motion to approve with conditions.

I second that motion. OK. So now we'll list the conditions in addition to staff conditions.

OK. Do you want me to make a list?

Yes.

Thank you. I think that the first thing we need to do is remove the rustic stone from it and change it to what I would suggest to be coral stone, because I think it's the right thing to. I think that all the windows, which I don't know exactly. I'm at a little bit of a loss. I think you were suggesting to be bronze. It could not be black.

The speaker can please speak into the microphone. Thank you. Then bronze is fine.

Yeah. So I think that they need to be. So we go into that palette. We have the coral stone. So whatever you're coating with stone is going to be coral stone. I think that the top border, which we have, which it looks like a piece of aluminum. I'm not sure what that is. I think that it needs to not be the highlight. It needs to disappear.

I don't think- There's two, which are you referring to?

All of them. Those lines of darkness, yeah.

We will make it so it's more monochromatic.

All black trim, correct. More monochromatic. I think the side, which faces the garden, I think that wall needs, I would love it to see it covered with ivy because it would be- Adding to the garden. Correct. I think that the corner column needs to be removed, which I think that they don't like it either, so I think it should be removed. The second tiered- May I ask a question on that?

Yeah. Are you, you're comfortable with materiality? Something in, like you said, in a slab stone, something-

I think that where you're coating the rustic stone in the back, I think that should be coral stone. I think when you have the stucco here, I think that the whole building should turn the corner in stucco. And I think that you could do the coral stone on the far right where you have the rustic stone. As far as the facade, I think that the whole thing needs to be, you need to remove that awning, not awning, that eave, whatever that eave thing is, and those two black columns that you have marching down on this, which are hideous. So I think that the front, so remove all that. I would remove that window to the bathroom, and I would create, perhaps you can do floor to ceiling windows, in there you can make the front door and the right window be all one composition so the front door is one panel and then that glass is one panel so you have two panels that may be a little difficult because that is a bedroom and that's the front door but we can work to bring it out well but you you have uh the windows almost go to the oh you're saying that that that wall is in a little bit

We can work on that, though, the materiality.

Oh, you said that it goes...

There's an indentation for the door.

But if you prefer that it is flush against, you know, we would make that a consideration.

We could possibly flush the door together with the window, but we would need an overhang to protect the elements from water going into the front door. That's right. But we could have it at the same...

I mean, I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to an overhang over that composition just in front of that. And I think that the whole planting that you have, I think that the whole planting to me, you should bring the level you have on the rear and turn it around in in two terraces so you can soften the blow of that stoop. You don't end up with a stoop and those marching railings on either side.

Very comfortable with that.

Because it will make the building sit on a terrace. So basically you turn them around into two terraces and then you incorporate the steps into the terracing on there. The right-hand side will be would be coral stone and then you would have glass and the front door all within one panel. And perhaps you can add an awning in there if you have to. I mean these are my recommendations. I know we never tend to do this, but I'm trying to. I'm trying to wrap it up in something that is a set of five things that need to be changed.

That's what I was going to suggest, if we can maybe put it into five categories. Landscape lighting, the stonework, the wrapping the patio, the windows. So we have a clear direction in what those changes need to be.

We've taken note on everything you've mentioned.

We'll still incorporate all those changes, but we still need...

It is going to be a beautiful addition to Surfside, we assure you. Okay.

So I think, are those the conditions? Anything else? Okay. Okay. So the vote is to approve with those conditions and staff conditions. Madam Clerk, please call the roll.

Yes, Chair. Board Member Aparicio?

Yes.

Board Member Chavez? Just one comment.

Please.

I can just vote yes or no, but I just, you're on the oath, right? So I will feel comfortable if you make sure, if you say that this is going to be a residential property, and I'll vote yes.

This is a single, this is a residential property.

Okay, then it's on the record, yes. Yes, it's fine.

Thank you. Member Solarez? Yes.

Member Pinto?

No.

Chair LeCour? No, I need this to come back to understand truly, but. Motion carries. You get it anyway, so congratulations.

Thank you so much, and I want to say since I don't know who's staying, who's going, but.

Neither do we.

Thank you so much for your service. You do a wonderful job, so thank you.

And we do appreciate all your insight and the changes as well. We welcome making those changes, so thank you guys. Thank you. You're welcome.

Yep, no problem. Okay, we're moving on to 8935 Hawthorne Avenue, new single-family home.

Yes, staff finds this application meets the zoning code requirements, and if the board agrees that it meets the design guidelines, then staff would recommend approval. Sorry, let's just give people a minute here.

We've lost people.

There's no winnings.

It's very hot today. OK. Usually it's freezing cold up here. OK. Are we ready to reconvene? OK. Sorry, Scarlett. Go ahead.

I just wanted you to have everyone's attention. OK. Yes. The staff finds that this application meets the zoning code. And if the board agrees that it's consistent with the design guidelines, then staff recommends approval. Two conditions, that a drainage and grading plan are reviewed and determined to be consistent with the code. And at the time of building permit, the home will comply with the town's sustainability and resiliency program as defined in Code Section 9050.1 and will attain a recognized green building certificate based on all applicable standards. This application is a request to construct a new two-story single-family home On a 5,635 square foot lot, the subject property is 8935 Hawthorne Avenue, and the zoning district is H30B. And this property is an interior lot. The exterior design elements on the front facade include stucco and aluminum railings. Black lentil frames are proposed to all the windows and doors. The front facade projects articulation. And the rear of the home is similar feature materials as the front. The proposed lot coverage for this home is 2,160 square feet, and that is under the allowable of 40%. And the FAR is .60. Setback calculations for additional second floor setback are provided and comply with the requirements. A grading plan was not provided, but that's a condition for building permit. And just to note, this plan came before you three times before tonight. So thank you.

Thank you. Please proceed. Applicant.

I believe we need to be sworn in. Good evening, everyone.

Oh, yes, you do. If you could please raise your right hand. So you're sure enough to say the truth and only believe the truth?

Yes, we do.

You may proceed.

Yes, we do. Thank you all again for reviewing the project. For the sake of Ms. Solaris and Mr. Chavez, who I don't believe has seen this project in the past, we'll run through some sort of general points, but we'll be very specific for the other board members who have been here. as to the changes that have been made. Also, I would just mention that the design architect here, Office of Studio SC, based in New York, we're in some ways presenting on their behalf. We're the architects of record. And as we've done work in Surfside in the past, we're going to guide them through that process. The owner of the property is also here a lot, is sitting in the back, who many of you know as well. It is an existing house that will be demolished to make way for this new two-story home. It's an existing house on Hawthorne Avenue. You can see the project within the context. The context immediately to either side are existing one-story cottages. The materials favor natural materials. We're looking, of course, at stucco finishes, but also, when possible, trying to incorporate natural stone, often with pervious materials. When we do have railings, we like them to be sort of simple, solid aluminum. The house itself is, because it's a .6 FAR house, it has nine foot setbacks to either side. This is a project in some ways that I suppose one could say is an extension of a home that we have, is under permitting now, close to being fully permitted, 9017 Carlisle. where it introduces what we're referring to as a kind of zaguan, which is this entry portico, both sort of covered but also exterior to the left of the house. So you can see the stairs kind of climbing up to the left, makes its way into a kind of entry vestibule and then into the body of the house. The second floor here with its three bedrooms, kind of meandering floor plan which responds to the regulations stipulated by the setbacks that are introduced in the zoning code. The roof plan is flat, it's not accessible. The side elevations we see here, one of the comments to be direct to the previous month's review. Introducing more glass, some wider openings to try and animate those facades a little bit more. Here are the line drawings of them. The front and rear elevation, the front is above. It's two rooms, basically, towards the front. And then that entrance vestibule, that zaguan, as I referred to it previously, is off to the left. And then the back, again, kind of representing The sort of shifting masses that are introduced by the zoning code, the response to the zoning code rather, are shown here. Here are the line drawings. I should mention, we'll get to it I guess in the renderings as well. The tones here are just meant to represent what is closer to you versus what is further away. The material is the same. This is a rendering of the home. Speaking again kind of specifically to the comments that were made last time, the stair has been simplified. It's more of a straight shot to that Zaguan feature. The stone wall loses its larger opening and becomes more monolithic. The oculus that was in the roof above has been eliminated. A window square in this case on the left uppermost portion of the house. which is a bathroom beyond, was introduced to the facade here to provide a little bit more of a response in the elevation. And then a much more simplified sort of eyebrow, more characteristic, I would argue, of South Florida over the terrace on the second floor. the the base of the building here perhaps apropos to the discussion earlier with the first project is stone the material of the driveway stone also so the base kind of you know is continuous let's say around in that sense a night view the rear of the porch the pool terrace also stone and then a sort of an aerial view so you can kind of see it as well. Yeah, and then this is a kind of three-quarter view where you would see the house from the perspective perhaps of a pedestrian walking past. That's it.

Thank you. Thank you. Okay, anybody from the public? Seeing none, I'll open it to board comments.

Just on the back, if you can go to the back of the house. So the windows, especially on the bottom, well, that wall looks really flat compared to the front. The windows are a bit recessed. They're more to the back. So I don't know if it's the render or it's the design.

Yes, good question. I think the depth would be the same based on the front and the back. Like here it has a little sill. I think it's more a factor of the rendering because we're not intending the window to be, you know, flush to the face of the house. It's really, I mean, I prefer always when the window's kind of pulled to the interior so you have a little bit of a reveal, shadow, et cetera.

So on the back it's going to be... Would it be the same on the back then?

Same on the back, yeah. I think that helps a lot.

And I guess same with the other windows. Yeah, we could look at the plan, actually.

I mean, I would imagine that's, given the 360, that that would be the treatment of all the windows. That's right, yeah.

I mean, practically speaking, probably pretty typical in that way, although, again, I kind of favor pulling it back for the reasons mentioned.

Yeah. Okay, recall? I don't know. Okay, Moses?

No, I agree. No comments from here.

Okay. Carlos? I saved you for last this time.

She's punished the last day. She's punished me.

Get it all out.

No, it's actually, let's talk about the, I think you added that window on the very top, which I think it looks so much better. That was a good move. I think that I still have a bit of an issue with the entryway. I think in one of the drawings, you're showing a planter in the plan. You can't really have the plane railing like that at that height, because it's not going to meet code. that railing is going up about, what, four feet, five feet? So you can't just have an open railing there going up five feet, because it's not going to meet code. So the problem I've had with this house always is how to resolve the entryway when you need a railing. Because that's a problem that someone has so It's so difficult to go up that high and not have an ugly railing. So railing, it could be a thesis unto itself. So in that floor plan, you very well put a planter there. I see it. My computer's not working. On the side there, see? But in the rendering, you're not showing it. So I think that the issue we have, I'm going to really talk about just the entryway, because that's the only issue I have with the house. Would you like me to put it on the rendering? No, the problem is that when you're showing the render, it doesn't meet code. So what we're seeing is not the reality. Because you're showing very well, you're showing a planter as acting as railing, but then in the perspective, it's not seen that way. That's just like a cliff.

Right. It may be that that planter in the plan, frankly, is...

at grade, but let's continue. Well, a planter at grade wouldn't make any sense there because it's behind a huge wall of steps. So I think that To me, we need to concentrate on the sequence of the... I'll make a suggestion to you, which I don't know if it fits your sensibility. I've always had a real problem with that wall of stone. I think it's... The house is so delicate and so... You know, it's a small house. It's like a little cutesy... It's a very cute, very sweet house. And I like... Everything on the right, I'm totally fine with. Then in your attempt to make it look different from the other version of it, I think that you ended up with this heavy, rusticated wall that it completely goes against the nature of the sweetness of the house. And to me, it's completely unnecessary. Because I think that the way that I would handle it, I would have that overhang. the overhang you have above the front door and that window, just literally just cantilever and take away that whole wall and just maybe make it a planter there so it's open on the side. And then work out, maybe step another planter onto the side to hold the steps onto one end. So you open the whole house, because you're making a cave out of the front door. And that was, it goes against the nature of the softness and the sweetness of the house, which I like. I just think that that wall, to me, needs to go. And I think that thickness there, flying there, would look so beautiful. And then a planter below, and then stepping it down right against the steps and have all green against that corner is definitely the way to go. Because if you stood next to that wall, that wall is almost two stories high. It's a story and a half. So I'm not changing... I think that if you were to draw it now, you would like it so much more. Because I think that when you come out of the front door, you'll see green and you'll see air.

I would also just say you've got some beautiful stone in the driveway. You've got a different stone on the steps and the base. You almost don't need a third material there for this home. I think what's, you know, it's actually the FAR of this home is max, right? So it's, this is sort of a prototype for a max FAR home. And I think it's that, I agree that wall just doesn't resolve. And I think what Carlos is proposing would,

it fixes it i the other question i have is what is the material at the end of the entry is that a window or is that a it's a window okay okay which i love i love that i love everything about it i think that you need to get rid of that rustic stone and keep on going the same stone you have everywhere else open that whole corner let that overhang fly and when you come out of the house you'll see a planter and up air it's yeah the way to go i agree it's a way to go what's your concern

No, I like it. I want to do a little bit deeper dive since we have you in front of us here. In the code, there's a provision that would say that you could have an overhang that's, I think, two and a half feet. I don't know if anyone can confirm.

I know, but you're not going over the sideline.

You're within it. Right. I just want to build on your idea, actually, and I wonder if that horizontal plane could kind of...

How far can you intrude in the side setback?

Is that what you're saying? It needs to stay exactly where it is, meet the rear of the volume, just let it fly there. And then so the planter is outside. It's not sitting within an awning. It's outside. So you can have, imagine, you can have cascading green on that side.

You need the planter to be at a certain height.

Well, that's what I mean. The planter will be the railing.

Yeah.

That's what I'm saying.

I say that only because, you know, let's say it's open. The wall's gone and it's more open. If it was a little bit wider, you could almost imagine that as like a space. Like you're looking out. You know, a kind of porch in some ways, you know? Yeah. Because you could maybe extend that overhang.

I'm not opposed to it. That's allowed by the code. There's ornamental, you know.

I leave it. I leave it. What I'm suggesting is the right thing to do. And I think it's also going to bring an immense more light into the house because that corner That entryway is going to be infinitely nicer because you're going to come out of the house and see a huge planter with plants there in open air.

Can we, speaking of plants, can we humor the tree lady and look at the disposition plan and the landscape plan, please? I think you're removing all the trees as well.

There has been an update to that. I'm happy to report.

Good.

Um, the corner tree, I mean, obviously there are some that would need to be removed for the deck. Um, we are keeping the, the two, I think larger ones in the back corner.

What page is this of the report?

This may be relatively new. This is TD1. TD1.

This is the old plan, by the way. You know that this is the old plan of the first house. Make sure that you know.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The landscape architect, um,

Yeah, this is a...

So I can't read that. Can you just help me understand what's staying and what's going? That's the landscape plan. Does it also include the disposition?

15 and 16, sorry, 15 and 16, there are existing trees in the upper, let's call it the northeast corner.

Uh-huh. Like the top left? The top right. Okay. Those are the only two staying. Why can't you preserve those large canopy trees in the side setbacks? And at the corners of the lot.

These guys here, those are staying, are they not? Oh, those are, right, those are, those are new trees that are coming.

Yeah, let's look at the, okay, I'm getting confused between the new plan and the disposition.

Yeah, sorry, this is the, I guess.

Disposition plan?

Yes, this is the disposition plan and the one previously shown. Those larger ones, those are new trees that are being added. Okay, so like four, five... Judgment on the variety of the species more than the necessity to want to clear them out. I think it's just a kind of refresh.

Can't we work with some of the existing? I mean, I don't see why four, five, six, seven, 11, 12, 13, 14... 18, 19, why does all that in the perimeter need to go? That's just a natural green screen.

I'd really like to see you work with that.

I understand why one and two need to go. I understand why nine, 10, maybe even 12 need to go. But could we try to work with the rest?

Yes.

Thank you. With those changes, I'm ready to move forward. Does anybody else have any other commentary? So I think it's just the adjustment to the removal of the stone wall, replacement with planter, and removal of the railing.

I think it's also to get rid of that rustic stone and continue with the same.

Right. the same uh stone treatment you have in the rest of the house well i thought you were saying remove that wall that stone wall entirely well you know below below the planter it has some texture so what that needs to be that needs one of the existing materials besides the rustic yeah so remove this rustic entirely from the material palette remove that wall replace with planter for railings and work with all surrounding trees except for one two 9, 10, and 12.

By the way, before we move on, if you were to have, I don't know exactly what the stepping is, but I think that the whole piece, the entry sequence, if you can have split it into, there we go, I think that Because we're going to have a planter there, and then you're going to have a step down. The way that step meets that needs to be where the planter is what needs to be. But you're still going to have a bit of a problem on the right-hand side, because you still have a need for railing on the right-hand side. Do you understand what I'm saying? So we still have an issue with how you're going to solve the cliff on the right-hand side, how to protect that.

So that's something that I- Bringing the planter up, you know, gets us to a certain point and then maybe the rail can get smaller and obviously, reduced and maybe, you know, of course it has to meet the code.

I mean, I trust that you can solve it, but I'm just saying you still have that issue on the right-hand side. Listen, the front of the house is about the stairs, about the entrance sequence. That's your idea of the side one and the side entrance and all that. So the way that the stair and the entrance sequence is the project. You know what I mean? It needs to be really like a little jewel, like it's perfect. And I trust that you can do it, but I think by... Suggesting what we suggested immediately opens the possibilities to make the right move. And I trust you that you will.

We have a prior study, in fact, that doesn't have a wall.

Yeah.

And we'll re-look at how we've solved this there actually before as a starting point. Okay. Thank you.

Okay. So I think we're, I'm looking.

Sorry.

One more thing. When I look at the rear elevations, I don't know what the... It's like you've... You see, I don't understand why this is so thinly drawn because the front windows are set back and beautifully... It's like Adrian was saying. You have beautiful bronze section. It's the wrong rendering.

Yeah, it's the wrong rendering. All the windows are going to be that recessed with a sill. Right, so...

I have a suspicion that... I have a lot of suspicions, but I'm just saying the back of the house... I'm sure the back of the house needs to match the front of the house. Yeah.

And the side, too. I mean, the treatment of the window. Right.

I'm saying it's the same. You're not going to let fall off the cliff with, like, what this looks like.

Yeah. Okay. So I think the conditions we've identified are making sure that the windows are treated the same way around 360 degrees of the house as they are on the front elevation. to remove the rock wall at the entry and treat that more with plants and openings, and to keep all trees possible, except obviously 1, 2, 9, 10, and 12 interfere with the site plan.

Sorry. Sorry. One more thing. You haven't solved the rear stair either. That perspective is not up to code, so I don't know how that's going to be solved, because that's not code.

It's going to have to meet code to be submitted to the building department.

No, I know, but I'm just saying, statically, you still have an issue with that one, too, that you should keep on working on both, and maybe making cohesive, so maybe they're the same treatment. Okay?

Okay. So does anybody want to make that motion? Staff conditions plus the conditions I just laid out.

I make a motion to approve with conditions.

Okay. Is there a second?

Yes, I can.

Madam Clerk, please call the roll. Yes, Chair. Yes, Chair. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yes.

Yes. Yes. Motion carries.

Okay. Thanks, guys. It's been great working with you.

You've been great. Always a pleasure. You've been great.

All right, let's move on to our ordinances, of which we have none, and our next meeting date, which is May 28th. Maybe we'll see you there. Maybe we won't. And discussion items. We've moved 8A to the end, so let's talk about commercial awnings. And for that, I will ask our town planner to introduce it.

Yes. It was requested that this be brought up for discussion, basically to talk about some refinements that might be better regulating storefront awnings in Harding Avenue. There's been some concern that the code lacks specifics and that we could make some improvements in this area. I've brought forward maybe a few issues that we might guide this discussion, but obviously open to any more suggestions from the board. One thing that was brought forward is that we have had sign permits come through with awnings shown in a sign, but we're not reviewing them. We review that just at building permit. The awnings have not come before the board as something to review. That could be added as part of our sign permit application. We also could consider some specifics for styles of awnings to better guide and have cohesion with store-to-store products. We could look at how other cities are regulating storefront awnings. We had a chance just briefly today to take a look at Coral Gables and Miami Beach and a lot of things that we have right now in the code for awnings are pretty close to what Coral Gables has, but we go even further at the moment. Miami Beach has very little guidelines at this point. But we can continue on that if you wanted to see more examples from other cities. And then another thing, what we did with similar to the paint, where we want to do some sort of approved color palette. We don't have that right now. It's very, the code is very ambiguous on how the coloring. We also maybe would want to look at regulating painting of awnings because this has occurred recently. And we combed and combed and couldn't find anything that said that they couldn't do it. Oh, that's weird. I know. And then we could look at if there's any specific materials that we would want to consider over others and others to be avoided. Would we want to regulate any sort of decals on awnings or lettering? And are patterns still desired to be avoided? Because that is currently how the code reads, is that we don't allow patterns. Those are just some thoughts. Open it up to discussion.

Okay, thanks. Does somebody, George, you want to speak?

George, this is another thesis for you, along with railings. Awnings are a huge problem. And one of the reasons is that one of the frequent complaints about awnings, let's say you probably hear in our town, is the lack of cohesion and the chaos and all that. But if you go to any good shopping street anywhere, whether it's Worth Avenue, Rodeo Drive, you pick one, and there's individuality everywhere. So how do you get one without the other? That's the trick, because if you were to build in cohesion, you'll end up with a strip mall. or at least a better off strip mall where the developer can actually blanket the whole thing with the same awning all the way down and create a coherent look. So you want to be very careful here and not throw out the baby with the bathwater, and it's not easy.

Thank you. Board members, thoughts, comments? Carlos, I think this was your request. Do you want to open us up?

I mean, I think that, okay, Nicole, Worth Avenue in Palm Beach, for example, you have awnings of all different colors and shapes, but they're impeccable. I think that's a difference. I mean, I don't know how there isn't anything that addresses painting an awning. I mean, that's awful. I know.

Yeah, that seems like some low-hanging fruit. It also, I mean, Scarlett did share the code with us. You know, the awnings, all awnings shall be without tears, holes, free of dirt, discoloration, fading. I mean, we have the code in place for those to be looking better. I think there's a code enforcement issue here. All right. Um, but I think we can still maybe up at a notch as well. And I think Carlos, your issue was more that we're looking at signs and on, and we're not looking at awnings.

Right. So I think that, I think that my issue with, with, uh, Harding is right now it's a combination of things because it's, it's some are incredibly, uh, poorly kept and the problem is that they paint the facade so the storefronts matching colors you know we have a beautiful i find that i show was found a very beautiful i mean i will blow up the whole thing and do it all over again we have a beautiful cohesive uh... downtown our downtown is actually quite beautiful the palm trees are really beautiful but you would know what happened to him i want to blow up half of this town to do it again but two-thirds of it but something happened so But what I think is that I want to give a guidance to people, so it's very simple. I think that some people choose to paint their storefronts, some of them are black, and they put a black awning. So it breaks up the rhythm of the, it's not only the awning, it's what's attached to the awning. So it's the sign, the awning, and the storefront, because some people paint their piece of building in the most random colors. So I think that the unit, the sign, the awning, and the storefront color, to me, it has to come into, to me, the awning and if we're looking at the sign, we should look at the awning. And I think that We don't want to necessarily impose one kind of awning for everyone. That's not the point. The point that it has to be some cohesion between the color of the awning, the material of the awning, and the sign. So there's this whole part of one permit, because what you see more than the sign is actually the awning. I mean, the signs are this big, and the awning is this huge. I mean, I had an awning poke an eye a year ago because it was too low. It happened to me walking on Harding. adding the awning as part of the permitting of the sign. So if you have to permit the sign, I think the sign and the awning should be permitted together.

Can we regulate also the color they paint? I mean, it should be regulated the same way the homes are.

Well, I'm trying to, I'm saying it's a package to me. It's the color of the storefront, but I don't know where the color of the stores falls into the guidelines of this town. I don't know, I don't think there's any guidelines for painting the commercial space.

The paint palette we did was for HP.

Right, it doesn't include the, so these people can literally paint their storefronts purple if they want to.

So I guess from a... A question to you.

Sorry, it's a question to her. Scarlett. I don't know what the guidance are for her.

There is language that it's kind of vague and subjective as far as I don't have the language in front of me right now, but it's along the lines of it needs to be compatible with the rest of the building kind of.

I know, but that's not enforced because this doesn't come in front of us. So who's going to enforce it? It's like saying nothing.

What's compatible with the rest of the building? That's objective.

I know, but if they don't come in front of us, there's no way of compatibility. It's basically saying nothing.

Let's just put a pin in that. Marianne, did you want to speak? Come on up. State your name and address for the record.

Mary Ann Moshite, 9225 Collins Avenue. I was a store manager at 9513 Harding for Pampeloni, which is now a different store. But in order to get the sign, we had to come before you and It had to be certain measurements, and you couldn't have certain signs in the window had to be a certain way. And if you wanted a sign on the top, it had to be a certain way. But also, they were renters. They're all renters. So the color of the facade of the building is really on the owner. If the owner, you know... wants to paint something to go along with it so it's it's it's really difficult to um there there are there were rules there are rules for the signage i think what you're saying is we we might not be able to lump in the paint color of the facade um because it's owner versus renter And also, if you wanted the sign on top of the building, that was another thing. But it was very complicated, but owner versus renter, so.

Yeah, and I think that would probably apply to the awning as well. Yes, yes. Okay, that's a good point. Thank you. Thanks for sharing. You know, I don't know if there's a mechanism by which we can, you know, lump those, link those together. I mean, I understand the point they're making is it's one facade, and we're just opining on one little piece. would be really nice. I mean, usually these are new stores going in. They're doing tenant improvements. They're improving the inside and the outside. I mean, it's not a stretch to say, you know, your awning and your paint color are part of those improvements.

I mean, I think that what I was trying to gain is for the weirdest reason, we're looking at signs. I mean, if you have standards of how big these signs are and what you can do and the colors and that, why are they coming in front of us? I mean, why we're wasting our time with signs when we actually, what thing that impacts the street the most is the awnings, and that's what's catastrophic, and the paint of the colors, the color paint of the buildings. So I think that we can't just retroactively go back and force people to change their colors, but I'm saying if you come in front of us, a lot of people want to bring an awning because they're changing it, because they're putting a new business, so they will change an awning, and they will put a new awning. So all I'm saying is that we should include in the packet, you know, the...

I would venture to say it's, you know, if they're going to change the exterior street-facing facade of a store, that that should come before us.

Absolutely, absolutely.

Whether it's the color, the sign, the awning.

The glass, the storefront, you know. I think that, you know, it's the soul of our town. You know, we have a downtown. I mean, Coral Gables, they protect fiercely the downtowns and, you know, what things you can't do and cannot do, the planters. And I think that we have a laissez-faire... i think the palm trees are so beautiful and the street is so beautiful but when you look when you walk down and the experience of walking down it's so chaotic and so dirty and so it's not beautiful it's not beautiful and i think part of it is it's that randomness of it all so i think if we put a little bit of order into the approval process so that people come and we can guide them to do something each time there's a turnaround one business the the street looks a little bit prettier Why not? I mean, why are we looking at signs and we're not looking at anything else? That doesn't make any sense to me. To me, the sign is the least important thing, because if you have standards for the sign that you can and cannot do, a lot of times these signs are logo signs, so they're just basically copying a logo they already have. They're just making it the right size and the right color.

So I think there's two... Are there guidelines for the signs? Can you do a sign?

Yes, there are guidelines for the signs.

I mean... the point of renter versus owner the awning and the building color should be on the owner right but it's to be on the owner not the renter because again we refer back if we want to look at neighborhoods like palm beach the name of the stores are not on the awnings

Well, this code actually says that signs, that's prohibited. Awning signs or any sign printed on or attached to an awning or canopy is prohibited. So you can't put lettering and signage on a canopy or an awning, which is good. We need to add painting to that. You can't paint an awning. And then I think it's...

It should be on the owner to upkeep that awning.

I don't know who it's on, but I think what we're hearing from the board is we would like a holistic review of changes to retail facades that we think it's under our purview, and we'd like to understand how to make that part of our...

I think if you're going to open a building, are you going to make changes to the facade, a commercial, being the renter or being the owner? Yeah. We don't know.

Yeah.

what needs to come on the board the same way the renters, the one who comes here with the sign, it's not the owner, it's the renters who come in for the sign. I think they need to come with a whole packet. They're already showing the awning. Every time we see it, they're already showing an awning because they're probably putting a new awning. That's why they have it in the drawing because maybe even the same company is providing them the awning. So we're asked not to look at the awning, but the awning is in the drawing. So it's actually very simple. I'm saying where someone is presenting, it should be a commercial packet that has to do with whatever changes a facade is going to be, the awning. And if all you're going to do is the awning, change the sign and the awning, the sign and the awning should come in front of us. That's all I'm saying.

I think we need help from the planning group to understand what would need to change in the code to allow that to come before us. And then I think we probably want to consider a very brief style guidelines for the facades of the front. George?

Yeah, very quickly. I just want to tell you one of the problems you already have with the code you have and the disconnect it has with doing something good. So most of the signs that are above the awning, no one can see what they are other than the cars. And no one's going to pull over in an instant and try to park on Harding because all of a sudden they see Acme Jewelers. That's not going to happen. So part of the problem is the signage for the pedestrian is not very good. But the other thing is that this thing, this prohibition against lettering logos and stuff on the awnings. Now, right now I'm looking at an awning for Georgia's and Beverly Hills. And it was, you know, a very elegant store. And they always had this beautiful yellow and white striped awning. And I don't think we're even allowed to use stripes. And then in a very elegant Bodoni font, it says Georgia's of Beverly Hills, right? Lettering on awnings is actually a good thing.

But we're not on Worth Avenue. No, we're not. If you give him letters, you know what it's going to look like.

No, I get it. I get it why we don't want to have it there. But you can see that we're...

It would be so chaotic.

If done well, it could be pretty, yes.

We have another issue. It's that a lot of the awnings touch each other. We have a situation which is very different from Worth Avenue, where you have beautiful storefronts where the audience sit within a facade. We have a dumpy little commercial spaces, and the audience are literally one next to each other, or very, very close to each other. So we don't have that stretch of awning that gives you breath where we know what we're referring to. So we have a lot of very, very tiny little storefronts.

Yeah, and so one thing that the code should probably address, so A Harding was 25 foot Lots rather than the 50 feet we have everywhere else but buildings sometimes straddled that but you Sometimes have a 25 foot building in two twelve and a half foot storefronts or whatever or you may get Even smaller storefronts if you split something into three That one building because sometimes you will see a building like the the Citibank right it's a Not that it's a great building, but it's longer than other things. So I think something within a building should be cohesive, right? Now, maybe you can vary color or something if you have different tenants in there, but those awnings should be the same because they're part of the same building. And then when you get to these narrow storefronts, when you're 12 and a half feet, there needs to be some thinking about how these awnings butt up against each other or do not butt up against each other because you bring up a very important point there. To have. an elegant awning and a twelve and a half foot storefront is actually a very elegant thing one of the nice things about harding is the bones of harding is actually quite good very tiny tiny storefronts that are boutique it could be a little jewel of downtown exactly but it isn't so thinking of the the uh... the meeting of awnings when they're so close together so another important part of the code and i don't think but george we have two important we can wrap it up we have two important data in this downtown we have a

a very cohesive streetscape. And we have an insanely beautiful string of palm trees marching down the street, which are the two key elements to make something beautiful. If you clean up the signs and you clean up the storefronts and the paints of the buildings and you clean up the awnings, it will be a jewel. You don't have to do... No one has to spend one penny more than they are. It's just it's not cohesive, and that's the problem. We're not asking them to spend money. We're asking to rule so it's all more cohesive. Because when... The two most expensive and more complicated things to have is the streetscape and the palm trees. We already have them. I mean, we have a beautiful line of beautiful, gorgeous palm trees down the street. But when you look at the awnings and the signs, it all falls apart. It looks like a mess. So we're trying to find a way of how to help people to start cleaning up these storefronts so we move, without asking them much from them, move into the direction that the start cleaning up the the strength of Harding so it looks more beautiful, that's all.

So a two-part, I think we need help understanding what it would take to make sure that these exterior facades are coming to us in the code. And then second, I think we do need to invest some time in design guidelines for the business district. And that's probably going to be a workshop, I think, a separate workshop. And maybe we'd like to invite the new commission to do that, or we can start and then present something to the commission.

Yeah, we might be out, so.

Yeah, but let's just add that, you know, I think the future discussion items tracker, it's, you know.

We start a conversation, I think, in the right, we're moving the conversation to the right.

Yeah, let's add it, though, so it's still hanging there for the future board, you know, review, design review board role, and then design guidelines for retail. One more? Yeah, and then we'll move on to the next discussion. Okay.

Mary, am I shy? 925 Collins. And I was on D back for eight years. The problem is the owners don't want to get involved and that's, you have to try to get them in the workshop also because they, they're the ones that are going to have to spend the money. But that's, that was the biggest problem. The owners, Don't care. They didn't want to get involved.

There's responsibility of all kinds with owning property.

So I'm just saying that that was sort of an absentee.

When you own property, you have responsibility. So that's why you pay taxes. Yeah. I mean, I don't care what they have to say.

But they should be in the workshop also.

We can certainly include. Yeah.

Thank you.

Okay. Thanks. Okay. Anything else on that item? Or can we move to fencing and landscaping? Okay. Let's move on. Fencing and landscaping.

Carla, you're more blonde today. Are you? You are. Got it. Noticed. It's so warm back here.

Yeah, we got to keep going. We're about to. Yes, okay, so the issue is really centers around how we define the front yard versus the side yard. when we're looking at corner lots specifically. Right now, as the code says, on a corner lot, the narrow side of the lot is considered the front, and the longer side is considered the side. However, many houses have their front doors facing the longer side of the lot. But when we go to regulate the height of fences, we have an issue where our side yard would be the side where it would be in the front of the house.

That seems like an easy code change, right?

I think so. I was getting to that. Yeah, pretty much I have a suggestion that if we could make an amendment to how we define the front of the yard and add, I'll just read what we have right now. It says front lots shall be construed to be the portion nearest to the street. For corner lots, the front lot shall be the narrowest portion abutting the street.

and then we could add except when considering the maximum height of a fence the wider side is considering the front or i would i think we'd almost just want to say wherever the front door is that's the front because some of the corner lots do have the front door on the smaller side yes so that i think you just want to align the entry the front entry not to have a six this is where the problem is we talked about something scarlet today about this uh

This is the issue. It's actually wrong. Most bulk house houses have the front door, like mine, on the long side.

No, they don't. And the county code requires it. Remember, we had this whole conversation. We wanted to change it to the side. Then that was out of alignment with, it's actually the smaller side. So that's just the reality of the code. We're going to have to work around it for fences.

So since that's what the code says, which it's not the way it is, what we talked about doing was the fact that This all came about when that corner house on Harding and 88th Street ended up putting a six foot fence in front of the house, making a cage, okay? So I lost my cool. I went to see her. I said, what the hell is going on? Because it looked like a pig's thigh. And she expressed very well that it's the code. It's allowed to do it. So she was right and I was wrong. And this is when I came out to realize, whoa, right, because that's the side of the house. So we can't allow people to put up a six foot fence, Like I could put a six foot fence in front of my house. So that's when the problem, that's when the problem arises. You can't put a six foot in the front of your house.

That's the distinction right there. Is the front as where the front door is versus what code says should be the front setback.

Right, so the parenthesis we have to do, it has to do with fencing. So that's what we're talking about, how to regulate for the fencing. Not for, we're not gonna change that part of the code. We need to, so how to handle, We can't allow people to put a six-foot fence along their front door. That's just, we can't. All the bulkhead houses would have a wall of, it would be a prison of fences all around the end. So that's where the code says that we need to have a clause that's saying that somehow we need to stop that from happening again.

George?

The code already gives you an expression for that longer side. It's the secondary frontage. So if you just say you can't do X on the front or the secondary frontage, you're good.

Yeah, the challenge with that then is you're telling somebody who has their back or side yard that they can't put a six-foot fence there either. So, I mean, I think we're either moving to a code where only interior boundaries can have a six-foot fence and anything street-facing cannot, which is probably a better way to do it, because I think what we're saying is...

Absolutely right. That's what we need to do. Yeah. So, there you go. Anything that faces the street cannot have a six-foot fence. Right.

Well, but then what do you do if you have, like my house, I'm on a corner, my pool faces the street because my back, I'm on a corner, so my pool faces the street, so I can't have a fence. I have dogs, I have a child.

You can have a six-foot fence. You can have a four-foot fence.

Four-foot fence for most dogs doesn't do anything, so then that, there lies the fence.

But you can put a fence and a hedge like I have.

Well, I have a hedge also, and I have a hedge, so then maybe that's the code, is the hedge. But to limit it to four feet, for example, my dog, I mean, she's a cockapoo. She would blow that four-foot fence.

I know, but you have a fence and you have a hedge in front of the fence. My hedges are, you could have a hedge that's 10 feet.

Right, but we're talking about not allowing a fence at all. No, no.

No, no, no, no, no, we are.

Allowing a six-foot fence and only a four-foot fence. A four-foot fence is too low, and also too low for some kids. think it's the type of fence and i think it's maybe a hedge hide it with a hedge i'm hiding mine with a hedge i hate fences so i'm hiding mine with a hedge right but i think i have trees there now so you're saying you you would be in favor of at least one of those open sides allowing to go to six feet but i think it can't be the side that has the front door right so if it she has a six foot fence on the side that has a front door because her pool is on the side it's on the side if you look at my front door my cool is to the right that's my backyard

But by code, if you have a pool, the code says that it has to be six feet, right?

It's not unusual. There's many houses like that.

Four?

The latches.

Yeah, you have to have a second barrier, but it's not, I don't think it has a... I don't think it has to be six feet. Yeah.

I think we can make a, I mean, if that fence is enclosing, I don't know, a pool area or something like this, it could be a bit, there could be an exception for... for enclosing a pool area or something that it's, because the only reason why you need a six-foot fence is you have a pool. Why else would we have a six-foot fence?

Dogs, kids?

No, but in the front of the house. I'm not talking, around the house.

Well, the front of your house, I don't know, but I'm saying the front is also, the front of my house is the side, I guess, in this case, right? So my fence is only around my pool. It's only in that section.

I have, my pool is on the side of my house just like yours. I have a, my wall is two feet. I have a hedge. Not four, it's two. It's two feet. The whole corner of my house, the wall is two feet. I have, behind it, I have a hedge. I don't need to, I mean, a hedge stops me from, I don't have to fence it with, I'm not going against you, but I'm saying I have the same condition. My pool is on the side of my house. But we need to stop people from.

If you have pets, your dogs will be running all over the neighborhood. They will get through that hedge.

your pet would jump a four-foot pen? It's a circus dog.

She's a poodle. She's a poodle mix. She is a circus dog, actually.

Listen, we can't have people putting a six-foot fence, a six-foot fence in front of the house. You will be able to put a six-foot fence all around the front of your house.

I don't even think mine is a six-foot fence, by the way. I think mine is four, maybe five feet.

Yours is not six.

No, no, for sure it's not.

Because yours is like this to me.