Town Council - Regular Meeting

This conference will now be recorded. The workshop agenda has no invocation, but please stand for the pledge of allegiance. Pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

All right. Thank you very much. Okay. Before we begin, I just want to say the agenda today is devoted solely to the discussion of the resident Canada Goose situation in Surfside Beach. The town and interested residents participated in an information session with Clemson University Cooperative Extension Service about six weeks ago and the primary purpose of this meeting is to follow up and gather sufficient information for consideration of additional action at future regular meetings. So, no votes will be taken for Surfside Beach ordinance. The workshop meeting template permits public comment after presentation and town council discussion. Please hold all comments until that time and do not interrupt, disrupt, or speak over any of the meeting discussion. With that, I'm going to move into uh our workshop item. Specifically, we're addressing uh ordinance section 3-52, birds and waterfell findings and determinations. Chief Mickel, I think you want to start us off.

Sure, I can do that. Hello, Mayor, town council citizens. Uh just you'll see in your packet you were given a briefing paper and uh just really laid out some of the um information that you might want to use when you're framing an ordinance or modifying our existing ordinance. Um, I also included a uh two different very different um ordinances from other jurisdictions in South Carolina and also the county's uh wildlife ordinance as well. Um, I'm sure you've read the uh read the decision paper and um it's very vague, but that's just uh to give you guys the the the information you might need to help you to frame that any any modifications to the existing ordinance. Um, also here is um, attorney Colin Juul who is the prosecutor for um, any cases that go through our municipal court and I think he's available for any questions, any legal questions you might have as well. Again, I'm not an attorney, so I would probably defer a lot of that to him. Um, but I think the biggest the biggest thing is right now our our ordinance is civil and I believe yeah there you're researching uh ways to go to perhaps make make the penalties criminal penalties instead of civilian

with that. Is there any other questions or anything that I before I turn it over?

Well, what what I'm going to suggest is uh Mr. Hyatt, you were I think the impetus for this uh workshop in the first place. So if you want to just get the ball rolling, go ahead. All right. Um, I've been working on a rewrite of um, ordinance, town ordinance section 352 and some additional ones. Um, it would appeared to me as I went through the ordinance that a lot of it is filled with with dictim that we no longer even understand. Some of it had acronyms and we don't even know what the acronyms stand for. So on under section 352 um I've removed A through H and then I've added two more and I'll read them since the public's here and the public needs to know. A that the attracting of migratory water foul by feeding them creates a public nuisance through causing such birds to lose their natural tendency to migrate and instead to congregate within the town's limits. Such congregation results in the deposits of unhealthy fecal material on and the causing of other damage to public and private property, including lawns, parks, playing fields, roadways, and waterways. Additionally, such congregation often results in impeding the safe and normal flow of vehicular traffic. The council further notes that the feeding of water foul no excuse me that feeding the water foul non-natural foods may result in their development of irreversible and often non-s survivable wing deform deformity referred to as angel wing. B that the feeding of seagulls can cause them keep in mind this is a birds and waterfall. Not just we're not just addressing waterfall, we're addressing feeding other birds as well. That the feeding of seagulls can cause them to congregate in large numbers around people possessing

and eating foods on the town's beach. At times, seagulls, sometimes in large numbers, may attack people, especially m small children, in an attempt to obtain the food they have in their possession. This can result in terrifying the victims. And then the next section is 353 of the town ordinance prohibited activity. Um this ordinance had two sections. The first section remains um and I will read it. A subject to any exceptions contained in state and federal law. It shall be unlawful to take, trap, hunt, shoot, or attempt to shoot in any manner whatsoever any bird or water foul, or to rob bird nests or water foul nests in the town. In the event that sparrows, blackbirds, pigeons, crows, or other similar birds or water foul are found congregating in numbers in a particular locality within the town's limits as to constitute a public nuisance or minutes to the public health or to private or public property, then in that event, any of them, the congregated g birds or water foul may be discouraged, destroyed, or removed by the town administrator acting through the town police department or another agency or department of the town, county or state government in a manner consistent with state and federal laws concerning the protection of birds. That one remains. The second one uh is B and it's added and it says no person may purposefully furnish food for wild water foul including ducks and geese and swans, seagulls and pigeons within the town limits unless otherwise permitted by law or in the lawful further furtherance of their control. And then we're adding another one. C. No person shall create or foster any condition or allow any condition to exist or continue which results in a congregation of such birds

within the town's limits. Then moving on to ordinance section 354 penalties. Uh we're making a change to a not in in total change but a partial change. A says, "A person who violates the provision of this article shall be guilty of a civil infraction punishable by a fine of not more than $200." And then we added, "Each subsequent infraction shall escalate the initial fine by $100 to a maximum fine of $500. The rest of the remaining um wording has not been changed except for G. And G, it now states violators shall be subject to incarceration not to exceed 30 days. And that's the changes that uh have been proposed. All right. Before we uh continue, I want to make a motion um should have done this at the beginning to suspend the two turns speaking of Robert's rules. That way we can have a uh back and forth uh discussion among the council members. Second.

Uh any discussion on that item? All in favor? I opposed. None. Motion carries. So, uh we we're not going to impose the two two-turn limit. All right. So, with Mr. Hyatt's comments, anybody want to speak up? Mr. Mayor, Miss Sean,

um I like the wording so far with the rewrite that um Mr. has put into um from reading the other examples from all of Palms and Ory County since we're within Ory County, but we can have our own ordinance. Um I think we need to include because um residents do have uh perfeters and that's okay because that's not waterfall and I understand that. um love seeing the cardinals and everything. They eat, they fly away, and then they go away in the winter time. They come back in the spring, and that's all good. But I think we need to include that the bird feeders have to be a certain height. Bird feeders are up high for those little birds. You know what I'm talking about. um not down below where the water foul can reach it because we don't want to feed the water foul. Not that we're being mean, but their purpose is not to live here year round. And if you feed them, then they don't learn to go feed themselves. So, I would request that that be added or we can discuss that.

I I've got a question. is is uh is that specifically in the Ory County? Uh um I thought it was I don't remember seeing I mean I'm not disagreeing. No, they talk they don't specifically say height, but they do do agree that you can have a bird feeder, but I think it would benefit us to define Okay. the height of a bird feeder. Yeah. I I was just looking for uh potential language. Is of palms. Okay. Okay. All right. Okay.

Yeah. I mean I mean in general I would like to take uh existing verbiage that's uh passed muster in the past. Yes. So okay because Mr. Mayor I'm sorry. No no go ahead. Just we're having a back and forth now. Okay. The alop says in the section 6-2-8 under definitions says bird feeders devices specifically designed for the purpose of providing food to birds. I would like to have that wording in our ordinance, but I would like to have more specifics to it

that to include the height and that this doesn't include um the w the water foul or the geese, the ducks or whatever. All right. Any other Mer? Go ahead. Sorry, Mr. Walls. Go ahead. Sorry. I just would like to ask Miss Sean, do do you have any specific height in mind? Because when you buy a bird feeder, they're usually four feet high. That that's what I would have. They're not down below.

So, um I just think we should specify you could even do four, five feet, you know, flush. What I was getting at is if we should further define And again, I just want to remind everybody, we're not going to vote on any of this today. We're just gathering info. So, make your own notes. Mr. Law.

Yeah, just a quick comment. Um, after reading, we were provided the Ory County um ordinance that's in place. Um, honestly, I'm kind of wondering why we have a separate ordinance or why our ordinance is not kind of verbatim to the Ory County ordinance. Um, John's made a good attempt here, a good draft and he took a lot of it from here, but as you just said, Mr. Mayor, that um there's language that's already been vetted and approved by a jurisdiction. Seems to me that that would be a reasonable approach to take would be um taking using the Ory County one either not I don't know if it's possible for us not to have our own separate ordinance, but if we need one, why it wouldn't just kind of verbatim reference the Ory County Oh, is Chief Mickel still here?

Yeah. Okay. You you went way back there. Okay. You you you gave us the uh Ory County uh with your decision paper. Have you reviewed it? Do you think it uh you think it's substantive enough and and effective? So, this one's very very vague and gives a lot of latitude both ways and that probably could have some uh room for interpretation. So, if you want to remove some of that room for interpretation, you could be more specific like the aisle pumps. if you'd rather it be more vague um and have a lot of and and be able to let the courts decide or the you know what the what would be a violation of it then you could go something more vague here. There's also an exception in here that probably would you wouldn't want to include loca um anything with a minimum of wildlife management. We don't have any facilities dedicated to wildlife management. So, we would want that there, but the uh like the penalty language would probably be would suffice if that's what you're looking at symbol to the rental penalty.

Okay.

So, that's really the main difference is county is very general. Um is palms is has more specific language in it. So, I think you just have to decide. Um, and again, you know, I guess I'm not I'm not an attorney, but I would think since Ory County is a a larger area with different environments and habitats that they would make theirs more general for because they're not dealing with such specific issues as we are or like a smaller community like Isle Palms and that they made theirs more specific so that they can deal specifically with some of the the issues that they come across. So like or county had to probably put in, you know, their their ordinance probably five to 300 pages that they had to every single different habitat environment that they do it on their on their wildlife feeding. So that's just my take on it. But again, I think you have to decide and how where do you want to go with it? Do you want to be vague? Do you want to be specific and probably get some legal um advice as well as to whatever that language would would be for for South Side Beach?

All right. Thank you, sir. Yeah. Very good, Mr. Mayor. Mr. Hyde,

um, a lot of, not a lot, but I've been approached by others that think that maybe we shouldn't just be dealing with a wildlife, I mean, a water foul bird ordinance, but one that addresses the feeding of all wildlife. Um, I notice in Iowa palms, they address even feral cats. Um, but I do know that that uh I have received a complaint about feeding of squirrels and attracting the squirrels to a location that then resulted in pretty serious electrical wiring damage um could even create a fire hazard at some point. So, that's another thing we might want to consider is that expanding this ordinance to include the feeding of all wildlife. My goal would be to try to keep wildlife wild by not feeding it at all. Well, I will say um there was an incident about a year or so ago. Um some rat poison was found in Memorial Park and we don't know exactly what well at least I don't know. I don't know if the police do you know it seemed to go away after a while but I've seen feeding of squirrels in that park and I think somebody might have been angrily responding to that. I don't advocate for rat poison in any any any stretch of the form, but but when we feed wild animals, we do sometimes create nuisances for other people. So, I think it is something we need to be cognizant of.

Mr. Mayor, Mr. Sammy, I'd like to hear from the attorney on some of the things that he can provide for us to make this a good ordinance for the town and legally by the standards that we need to look at while we're while we're looking at these ordinances. Are there anything that you could add to or have you seen the rewrite of what Chief Mickel is going to get a copy of that for me right now?

So, if you give me about five minutes because I haven't seen the changes to it yet. I was looking at the aisle of palms and the Ory County ordinance and I would just note one thing about the Ory County ordinance is it specifically applies to residential areas of Ory County only and doesn't apply to commercial areas. So that's something you all might want to look at. I think kind of a combination between the aisle of Palms ordinance and the Ory County ordinance would be your your best bet. Um I don't necessarily think you have to have as much about the purpose in there either. Um, I think that is good for for background purposes, but uh the more specific you can be with the acts that are prohibited and then the penalties for committing those acts, the better it'll it'll be. So, if you'll give me about five minutes, I'll take a look at the rewrite opportunity back up.

Thank you. Yeah, we'll defer for a little while on that one. Okay, Mr. Mayor. Uh, Mr. Cohen. Yeah. Um, I like the poly. It's hot and dry. You don't need a law degree to figure out what the heck they're talking about or county on the penalties. I don't mind the fines going up, you know, each time, but I'm not really for incarceration. I rather have somebody do u

there was a community service. I rather see people do community service, you know. I think that's more of a a better way to get get people to stop doing things. Actually show them why instead of just somebody just pays them pays the fine and and then but I I I got people in New York City get shot and killed and they they don't go to jail. So I I don't want to I don't want people going to jail because they think what they're doing is right. I don't think people should be feeding um geese, but I don't think people should also be trying to run them down, right?

Trying to assault them. So, you know, hopefully, I mean, this address is feeding them, but hopefully we have something on the books that says, "What's going to happen to you if you intentionally try to run a goose now or take a stick to them or I mean, they're they're have just as much right to be here. I I don't like having goose poop all over my lawn. I live on the lake. I enjoy watching, you know, they come on up to my bank and, you know, during mating season, they have a little bit of fights and stuff like that. Uh, and I enjoy that. I don't like the goose poop again, but you know, I can live with it. I know in some areas it's it's it's you got to tiptoe through and my dogs love it. My guest car, but I don't want them eating. Uh so you know a little bit I think we got a good start here with I mean why rewrite the book if we got county done it Paul has it holy moly I mean look at all that some lawyer got a lot of money to write this up that's crazy so you know that's my feelings if we can get the prosecutor to let us know copy what's the best way but I don't see why we have to re rewrite the whole book I could rid of our book if it's working in island palms and working in county

yeah Mr. Mayor Mr. I I I agree with Derry on the concept of if there's going to be punishment here, it needs to be for for what we're talking about here, but also for those if if there are folks out there that are mistreating the birds, the water foul, there should also be punishment in in our regulation for that as well. So, um in the end, the goal here is to help the geese and other water foul. We want them to be migratory wild animals um that are protected by by ordinance and law so that they're not harmed and they're also going to be returning to migrating and and doing what's best for them. That at least that's my goal. Uh in terms of the incarceration, the only caution I would say is we might want to give ourselves that option with the idea that yeah, community service makes way more sense and lesser of course unless you've got people who just continue to do it. Then maybe we need to have an option in there for more stringent pedal. That's all I can say.

Well, I'm glad Chief Mikl just came back in and uh you you were uh forestry service, right? not fish and wildlife. Correct. Correct. For sure. But but you you you you I'm assuming you're pretty familiar with the protection of Canada geese. They are federally actually I think they're internationally protected. It's a international treaty which filters down to federal protection and state and so on. So we don't need an ordinance to protect geese. Correct. I mean if you're running trying to run them over, you're trying to hit them with a stick. your well I believe there's state law that I believe there's state law that that covers that but again

I was not fish and wildlife that was for we protect the habitat not the animals got but it's the state owns the wildlife and then of course the third amendment can regulate certain types of wildlife too like like migratory birds so I believe there's state and federal law about um hurting injuring harassing um keeping wildlife uh including migratory birds such as And and if you get calls for somebody trying to harm a goose, you take care of it. Yeah. Yeah. There's there is a state statute that we can we can enforce if somebody was to harm, we could prove, you know, we have problem causing somebody who's harmed a a goose, we charge them accordingly.

Yeah, there was some discussion right while you were, do we need to do something to make sure we're protecting the geese? But I'm going to say I think they we the laws are already in place and you can enforce them. Correct. Correct. Correct. And if it's something beyond their expectation, we call DNR to assist or take. Has that occurred? That actually has occurred a couple times where we've called them and get their input as to how to proceed with a certain thing or to turn over a a complaint to them that they might be better fitted to handle. And not just not just for candidates, but for any call.

Uh just a question if When when we talk about trying to somebody tries to you can lately see that but as far as taking a stick and moving on along that considered trying to harm the geese or is it

I mean clarify may again I think it boils down to intention if somebody's trying to move the geese off their property and they're not harming them you know I guess that that'll be up to you know what the intent is uh I have to statute the state statute, see if there's an intent element to it. We do have the attorney here, so he could probably give you better better uh guidance on that. But I think there's intent. If they're just intending to move the goose off their property, that's that's causing damage or degradation to their property. But if they're using the stick to harm a goose or injure the goose or kill the goose, then I think that there probably would be a violation of that law. I just want to make a couple of general comments and and I I think uh uh Mr. Jules is reviewing and we could probably get back to your stuff soon. Um I do want to say in my two and a half years, I haven't kept track, but um I would say the the most emails, calls, and just conversations I've had in general about this town have been about geese. Um it's more than parking, more than the pier not getting completed. more than any other issue. So, it it is something that is problematic and I think ultimately needs to be addressed. Um, I do support what several have said already that the geese are wild animals. They're migratory in nature. Their patterns are disrupted when we interact, feed, shepherd them around, whatever. And I think the best approach is always to just leave them as wild as possible. And that goes for the foxes and the raccoons and the possums and the squirrels and all of that. Um, you know, there's there's not a ton of things we can do. We we had the Clemson uh cooperative extension service in here and uh you know, they they had things you can do to change habitat a bit uh try to change their behavior. We don't

own the property around the lakes. We do at Floral Lake. a fair amount of that and we could let some growth go around there and kind of discourage them from coming up on the banks, but most of the the lakes and ponds around here are uh private residences. I do not want to have any ordinances um where we start telling people you got to grow a a six or 10 foot buffer um or you got to put uh either the monofilament fishing line up there and you know that kind of stuff. More power to you if you want to do that, but I I certainly don't want to go that way. Um, so far as as jail time or or uh public service, I would look at that as a as a later to last resort, um, you know, I would hope that people would just respect the wild animals and not feed them, leave them alone and, uh, you know, let them behave the way they should. Um, but if you don't, then that would be the escalating fines leading to community service and ultimately maybe to jail time because at that point I think that's just disregarded the law. Um, I will also say that it may be surprising to some how many ordinances in this town already feature the potential of jail time. Um, and some of them are related to the state, but uh, failure of a juror to appear, uh, violation of our design overlay requirements, uh, violation of our business license requirements, pedaling and solicitation, disorderly conduct, that kind of makes sense. Uh, urban camping, pointing a laser uh, pointer in improperly, uh, violating sign permits, uh, disrupting storm water management, aggressive pan handling, and so forth. all carry up to 30-day misdemeanor jail uh terms. So, it's not a new thing for this town. And I just want to put those points out there um for consideration.

Mr. Mayor, if you don't mind, want to add something to that real quick when it comes to Oh, I believe in my briefing paper I put progressive penalty, but I think probably a better definition is discretion to the to the judge. Um it' be leave the discretion up to the judge to decide the the proper punishment. if he wants to make a progressive binds to that or community service. But I think I don't know if I would put like progressive scale. The first offense is this, second offense is that. I think I would probably like discretion to the Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Mr. If I could, Chief Mc Yeah, don't go too far. I'll stay right here.

You own the can of worms on there. No, I just wonder but is doesn't it behoove this body to define where uh Rachus can go in his maximum application of a penalty for a continuous

well that's set anyway by statute I believe the maximum is 530 days I believe is the statute for what an ordinance the maximum penalty for an ordinance So, but I don't know if but I guess what I'm saying is you might want to consider not making the first one 100 bucks, the second one 200 bucks, the third one $300 and it has to gets 10 10 violations before he decides that he can give jail time or community service or whatever the judge I think that's taking the judge's discretion away. Um, you know, okay, that's the reason for that law. give the judge discretion on a case-by case basis mitigating back the judges using their sentencing recommend or their sentencing then and then also for the prosecutor for their what their recommendations are for for that sentencing whether it be a $1 fine up to 30 days in jail just just my uh

I would ask the prosecutor too but that's just from my experience that's what I've seen and works the best thank you that was the question I wanted today same question that you just asked because I thought if we needed to set some kind of guideline from from council what we were expecting to happen uh in this ordinance but I understand where you're coming from too but

each case can be different so that's what the judge gets paid for is to decide on what's the best option for that case if some you know if they're intentionally constantly doing it and and you know maybe he gives them more if it's you know the bird feeder fill over and I didn't see it and the second time it happened. And I'm just spitballing off the top of my head here. You know, just give the the judge the discretion on uh how to make those decisions and and not not uh give them such stringent restrictions. While you're do you want to speak with the prosecutor now?

Yeah, if he's ready if he if he's ready with it, I'd like to hear from him. If I could just real quick while he's approached the podium, Mr. Mayor, I just uh so we have decided that there are already punishments in place for harming. So we don't need to define anything within our ordinance on what we would do to somebody if they just run their car through a crowded a herd of geese, but and harm a bunch of them. So those are already in place. I can answer. Yeah, that's one of the things we were looking up back there. Um, so there is 47-1-10. It's a state statute, cruelty to animals. Could you could you repeat that? 47.

Uh, 471 10. 47-1-10. And it's cruelty to animals. And in in that statute, there's language that it it knowingly and intentionally. So there is an intent element to that statute. So I think that would be different than, you know, somebody shoeing a goose out of their yard versus somebody taking a golf club to them and hitting the the goose. Um, so you know, you you've got that in place already. So I don't know that I would address that situation in this ordinance. This ordinance understands more about feeding the geese or creating conditions that would allow those geese to to feed on food that's provided by somebody. So um, I've kind of gone through both the Ory County ordinance and the aisle of Palms ordinance. And you know, one thing about the Ory County ordinance, if you if you take a close look at it, that first section in there, um, is actually just the general penalty section

for a violation of what I think is any ordinance in Ory County. Um, and then if you look at 4-32 through 4-36, that's actually the the ordinance language for what is prohibited and exceptions. Um, so I do like from 1.8 that obviously it lays out the maximum fine, which is $500 or imprisonment not to exceed 30 days or both. But it also has some language in there like y'all were saying that in lie of a fine or imprisonment under appropriate circumstances, a viol violator may be given up to 30 days of public service. So that's all in 1.8A. And then 1.8 NAC actually addresses warning, citations, and notices. So, um, that allows an officer to simply issue a warning to somebody. So, I think you kind of have different situations that arise. You know, it's this is a beach town, so you might have tourists here that are on the beach in the summer. You know, one of the kids might throw some of their cereal out and and you might get a whole bunch of seagulls coming to eat them.

And if an officer sees that, I would think that might be more, you know, the situation where somebody should probably get a warning, right? If you have a repeated course of conduct that continues to happen over and over again. Um then I think you kind of go back to the subsection A where the judge, Judge Rakis, the court would have the ability to um sanction somebody in a manner that's more appropriate for repeated violations of the law or for a more serious violation of the law. So um I I like some of that penalty language. I like the way the aisle of palms ordinance kind of lays everything out a little better for the actual section that's related to the prohibition on feeding wildlife. Um the definitions are pretty good. I mean the definitions are fairly like the Ory County ordinance, but you know 6.2-9 2-9 the feeding wildlife is is really good because it it lays out no person shall purposely feed or make food available for consumption by wildlife on private or public property within the city. No person shall recklessly feed or make available for consumption by wildlife on private or public property within the city. Um and then each person that owns property has a duty to remove any materials or devices placed on the property in violation of the section. Um, but it also says that it doesn't apply to the city, county, state, or any federal agency that has an account management program. Um, and then it also has the exemptions in there that councilwoman Failen was speaking about with bird feeders. Um, in section 6-2-10 where bird feeders are exempt provided that they're maintained in a clean and sanitary manner and any spilled or excess seed is promptly cleaned up to avoid attracting wildlife. And then in that section, you could also add something with a height requirement. And I don't know what that would be, but I think you're right. Most bird feeders I've seen are elevated off the ground. Um, you know, specifically to avoid squirrels partly. But I think that would also help, you

know, keep that from being consumed by wildlife or water foul in this case. Also interesting that the exemptions there's happens to be feral cats and bird feeders in the same section, right? We got So some somebody who may have been on the town council in the polls may have had an act for feeding some feral cats. Cats are looking for bird feeders. They are. They are. But you know, even that's a pretty good good exemption, but I don't think our current ordinance at least I don't recall it addressing feral cats. Well, thank you, sir. I appreciate that. Any uh questions while he's still here? I

I do have a question for you. And I've probably read these things 10 times plus. Um, anywhere in here cover housing them? Um, I didn't actually see that unless I missed it.

I there's nothing in the ordinance. Um, and I'm not fully aware, but Chief Mickel says there's state and federal law against that. So, I don't know that you would need to address that if you already have, you know, state law that that governs that because we can't we can't step on state law essentially. So, if you remember the I think it was the helmets from the city of Myrtle Beach that they required people to wear helmets and that was struck down by the South Dakota Supreme Court because there was a state statute on it already. So,

because I do have that that's a concern of mine too is housing these wild animals and um it has occurred in town. Um and I just don't know how that part of it gets addressed. So, state through state law. So, of course, a police officer will know the state, federal, state, and then town ordinance. Okay. Any other questions? If anything else pops up, I'll be in the back. I'll come back up and answer more questions. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. Thank you. They won't let me sit in the back. Just how much exercise do you want to get?

Any uh any other questions, comments? M Mr. Hayyatt, since you again you you were the first one to bring this forward, um I just want to get your take on the the aisle of Palms Zory County. It sounds like a little combo uh smashed together might work.

As I'm sitting here, I'm contemplating, you know, where do you go from here? And obviously, there needs to be more research done and I need to do another rewrite to bring to council. And that would include probably taking a look at what the federal law says, taking a look at what state law says. And then uh perhaps instead of trying to address just wildlife and and maybe seagulls and uh we would want to address all wildlife, um that way we could address squirrels and everything else that could be domesticated through feeding.

Um I I will say uh with Mr. Vincent being out today, um I would think he would appreciate that we don't tie up too much staff time. And if you're willing to take that, uh proposal on, I think it's a a good use of uh of our time versus time. I wrote myself a note. Very good. And and from my past experience with Mr. Hyatt on the peer committee, he's an excellent researcher. So, um I know he'll dig into it. Um I don't know if anybody wants to comment on that as well.

Mr. Mor I I think he's done a great job on what he's presented here. Uh they are some things in there that maybe could be a little changed to but overall the the the what he has presented already is is pretty darn good. But I do know I'm like you. I do know he does a lot of research. He will be good. Sorry, Mr. Mayor. Mr. Walls,

I'd just like to offer uh uh just an alternative and and again, I will piggy back. I appreciate all that you've done, Joe. all the hard work you put into this. But uh in as an alternative suggestion, I would just like to put out there that we might focus on whatever changes or revisions or tweaking we might do to the alaps. Again, I would like to see us along the same vein has been suggested that we try to follow existing embedded language that already, you know what I'm saying? uh so as to not I won't I won't say tie up too much of your time because it's it's your time and you can do what you want but I just wanted to offer that alternative because I think we've heard among a few of the council people that it's pretty good

I think that's a pretty good suggestion frankly good might be a good place to start and tweak it yeah thank you Mr. Mayor Mr. Well, I I would just say, yeah, along the same lines, John, I think that based on what the attorney said, I think taking some from what we have, some taking some from Ory, taking some, you know, a palms is probably a good approach because I think that there's good parts of both of them. Mr. Mayor Mich um as far as the penalties go and maybe it's for the attorney to address but um when it comes to fines, it seems like

certain people get fined and they get fined and they get fined over and over and over again. So, how do you stop? The fines are not stopping feeding the geese. We still have the problem. I've been here almost 10 years. The problem still exists. So, and of course then, you know, Chief Nicholls offers, you know, it's the discretion of the judge. Um, I just don't I'm trying to figure out a way to help the residents have a solution what we all can live with where it stops and it doesn't stop. it continues. So if you don't up the fine you community I'm I think community service great but even if that doesn't work you you have to get to the point you have to find it's just like a child a repetitive behavior you have to keep raising that punishment until it hits them to say guess what I can't do that anymore because it's either going to cost me too much money um or I'm going to jail or I'm putting in 50 60 hours of community service. So, um I I just think as long as we've been addressing these problems, and I know me personally along with everyone sitting up here, we get complaints all the time

about feeding the geese, about um they think they're protecting the geese, but they're harming human beings over the geese. That's wrong, too. So, where do you stop? How can you stop this behavior? It's repetitive behavior. And um I just don't know the answer. I need a solid solution for our residents to understand that we are truly trying to help them. And I personally can tell you that the squirrel situation

is out of control because my eight-year-old last summer couldn't play in her own playground cuz someone had been feeding the squirrel squirrels and they get so used to humans. I had one crawl up her leg and that's wrong. A child should be able to play in our own yard. And people are shaking their heads and you can shake your head, but a human being, a child should be protected. So you can shake your head all you want. Children are important in our community. And I've seen this personally and it's wrong.

So where's the penalty for my granddaughter? who's standing up for my granddaughter and other children in the parks that they're so used to being fed. It's wrong. So, I agree with all wildlife, but we have to come up with better solutions for our residents. Um, mayor, before we move on, I I want to uh send a question to Chief Mikl. Um, have we had a lot of fines imposed? I mean, have we I don't the cases in front of me. I know there's been several um

where the to the same individual been given same been given citations and u the result of those were fines. So there has been there has been fines repeated fines and the judge doesn't have the ability to go any further and then the fine fine's paid and it's over with. But they they haven't been tossed out. Uh, I mean the fines have been

I I don't know. There were some cases I think that were tossed out on some and I don't know the reasons behind all that but the ones that have resulted in a in a conviction or a plea agreement were all based on civil fines and so the judge can't go can't impose anything else if it's a civil penalty. So a civil fine and that's it. Um just and as you saw saw in the paper too and I forgot to mention earlier you know the civil fines um you know I believe it's the No, not the same burden of proof as if it's criminal. So, if we're going to be imposing criminal fines, we have to make sure we have um probable cause to to make that charge. And of course, then the the solicitor will leave the proof beyond a reasonable doubt because there is criminal uh sanctions involved such as jail time. So, which I don't foresee that being an issue because we wouldn't even issue a civil fine unless we were solid evidentiary grounds. and and and the reason I ask is because I've heard informally that cases have been tossed out in the past and I wasn't sure

and I and I don't know and I'm just from uh I don't know that the particulars of all of them I know some were ch were thrown out because they were um written on the wrong charging document and so those have since the processes because it was civil and they couldn't be written on the other charging doc so but do the best there have been there have been fines that have been levied civil fines that did not deter that person to continue that behavior. I just wanted to make sure that that point was correct. So, you know, because like I said, I heard the other side, too. So, she she her point is correct. Multiple fines not deterred. That's my understanding. It was before my time here. That's my understood. All right. Thank you, sir. Mr. Hyatt, you wanted to ask I think the attorney

I was gonna ask the prosecutor to come up and give us his sense of how to make escalating fines work. Yeah. So I I can address what you were what Mayor Krauss was talking about with some of the dismissals and Chief Mickel is correct. So um some of those uh violations were written on what they call a uniform traffic ticket versus an ordinance summons

and um that was the issue in a couple of those cases. And then I think there was also some issues with uh evidence because some of the officers that had witnessed the conduct were no longer here. Um, so that that's why some of them were were dismissed. Um, but you know, with with progressive fines, I think, and you know, Mr. Bruchett is out of town, so he can kind of guide you guys on this a little bit further. I'm I'm the prosecutor, and he kind of handles helping you all write the law. Um, but it's my understanding, I think the maximum penalty that you can impose for the violation of a municipal ordinance is up to $500 in 30 days. Um, so I don't know that you would have, you know, much ability to make it a progressive um, penalty.

It has to be left up to the judge. That's right. That's right. And that's why I think if you kind of combine those two parts of the Oregon County ordinance, you kind of give him the tools that he would need um, based on the facts and circumstances to issue the sentence. Got it. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

Mr. I'm going to sort of address why we're here. I I really don't think that nobody in this town really out there really wants to kill geese or goose, whatever. Uh but it has become a problem. We we I've had a lot of complaints and I'm sure everybody up here has had a lot of complaints about the goose in town and people feeding them and then you see the goose running around town that can't leave town or it's here forever and it has become a problem and I've been here a good while uh and it's increased over the years and as people feed them uh they tend to stay like They're young and if you continue to feed them, they'll stay at home. If you put them out and they go back, they'll go back they'll go back to feeding themselves. We have that problem. And it that's where this is all originated from is because the penalties that we've handed out to people don't seem to help. It seems like they pay the fines or don't pay the fines or dismiss the fines. It seems like we have people I a whole general there are a lot of you that feeds the goose or geese and with with this new paper or new ordinance I think we can address that and that's that's what this is all about. It ain't about going out here and lining dudes up and killing them and whatever you whatever the internet says and and some people think that ain't that ain't that ain't none of us up here. I don't think you take one of us. I love wildlife. I love squirrels. I love birds and I love

it all. But we have a problem and it's it's generated from so as a town we we as a council need to take in consideration of doing something about it and that's that's why we're here on this topic today. Thanks. Got anything else? All right. So, I I think uh we're not making any motions here, but I think we've already heard Mr. Hyatt volunteer to continue to work on this and try to bring something uh that we could look at in a in a regular meeting. And if we had to do another workshop, we could do another workshop um to just kick around and and it's a little freer discussion. Um and and again, we don't we can eliminate the uh the rule on how many turns you get. Um, but yeah, I think we we just want to see some progress made on this at some point. So, um, I'll ask one more time if anybody has anything you want to add to this discussion. Mr. Mayor, Mr. Walls, I feel compelled because boy, are we going to hear all kinds of 40 different ways that this thing went and how the council came at it on the internet. So, I would just like to state uh my position for the record so that it's not changed whenever it's interpreted on the internet. Um, I won't speak for anyone else up here, but I would like to tell you that I have no intention of hurting anyone or any animal. I am a staunch supporter of wildlife. They were here before we were. We need to find a way to coexist. The problem is is that there I wish we

didn't even have to be here on this subject, but this has been a big subject prior to my coming on as council and certainly has gotten bigger during our my term. Um, so I made some notes that I'm going to stick to. I wish we didn't have to be here. Uh because 90% of our residents probably or more respect the laws and ordinances that are in place and understand why they're in place so that each and every one of us can live in our beautiful place and coexist with the wildlife that is here and that we unfortunately are displacing the overgrowth. But any so the reason I wish we we weren't here at all is because there is a few people that are making it rough on everyone. So unfortunately we are compelled because the residents have compelled us to deal with this issue which is our job. Um, I hate that there are are small percentage of people in the town that consistently disregard the laws and the ordinances that are in place and influenced by welleducated wildlife professionals that help set forth these laws and ordinances so that we can indeed coexist with our wildlife. Um, so having said that, again, I'll say I wish we weren't here on this subject at all, but we are compelled because a small percentage of our population is affecting the overall residential population of our town and we are compelled to take care of it. So, thank you very much. and so that you don't see my my

position stated any other way. You know what I'm hearing. Thank you. Any other comments? All right. In that case, we are at item number four, public comment, where we will allow five minutes for speaker. If anybody in the public wishes to address the council, come on up. You're the only one with a hand raised. Thank you. Let me go over this a little bit. That works pretty good. Can you hear me? Oh, yeah. All right. Um, the mayor, I want to thank you and the council. Yeah. We need name and address or business.

I was going to thank you first and then give you my name. Okay. We do it first, but thank you. I'm Steuart Abselad. I'm an attorney. I'm a law firm called Abselad Associates. And can you start my time after I address the tell you my name and all that stuff because I only got five minutes. We'll grab that. Can we just go back to the five because because that's not what I'm here for. I'm here to talk to you, not tell you who I am. Yeah. Just can you restart it? We'll allow it. Yeah. If you wait till I I say hello, introduce myself, and do all that stuff. And then you can go because I know at five minutes you're going to like get the chief to lock me up. What about that?

Well, you might get mad at me before I'm done. That'd be it. I'm Steuart Axel. I'm an attorney, South Carolina. For history's sake, I lived in Surfside for 13 years. Lived here from uh I left I left in 2004. I lived 12 years before that. And I went to college at Coastal. Lived here. lived on Maple

7 717 Maple Little Senate Black House. Um, I want to thank the mayor and the council for allowing me the opportunity to have five minutes. Another attorney is going to speak after me, but I'm going to I'm going to make it as quick as I can. And if you want to start that, ma'am, you go right ahead, Miss Clark. Okay. Look, there's a problem. And I believe the mayor voted out a little bit that um that we have lakes and we have grass. And you don't want to put an ordinance in there to say people they got to grow a little buffer of grass. I understand that. But what the problem becomes is geese like water and they like grass. And the more we build the more grass we have and that is almost our biggest problem that we have here. It's um council member Stamy you said the problem is generated from feeding them. It's not. It's absolutely not. It's from grass and water. You put the two of them together, you got dynamite. It's not. And I don't want people I want people to understand that the solution I got a little solution for you. Maybe we should contract and get a sweet a street sweeper and and watch the streets every day or every other day or every week. We have two two square miles. Your city's two square miles. Why don't we do that? Why don't we have workshops and tell people that if you do put up a little fence, the geese won't go over them. The case have been here when I was here before. And I also think I represent the elephant in the room. Okay. I'm Maria Pens's attorney. She's the elephant in the room. We all talk about her without mentioning her. The emperor wore no clothes. I suggest you make her the ambassador of the geese. Get her a Surfside golf cart. Give her a visor. Give her a walkie-talkie and give her goosebump. Let her pick the poop up. Give her a job. 750 an hour. She said she would do it. It's a solution. Whether we like it or not, the geese aren't leaving and it's not because of

her. It is not because of her. Got to keep going. It's against federal law to kill, injure, or attempt to kill or injure. Uh 16 USC chapter 703. And for for argument sake, South Carolina adopted it in 2009, title 50, chapter 11. It's against the law to even harm him. I have seen hundreds of photos, dozens of videos of town people attempting to run them over and kill them. I say to you today, the witch hunt of Maria and Canese is over. We're putting an end to this. I have seen videos of cars running them over, golf carts running them over. They're hitting with brooms, sticks, rocks, throwing firecrackers, and golf clubs at them. We were a bird sanctuary till 2015. And in 2015, we no longer burst sanctuary and we rounded up all the geese and we started killing them. Then you know instead of prosecuting goose abusers, the Surfside police and city officials have openly mocked Maria who has ash burgers. We all know that. You know the city of Surfside refuses to enforce federal laws protecting Canada geese. Surfside Beach allows can allows goose abusers to get away with murder. They've done it. Now, I met with the geese last week and they've appointed me the guardian of the geese and I am now the guardian of the geese. I'm not going anywhere. I will review all the photos and videos. I've hired investigators. There's no statute of limitations. We're going after we're coming after the people that have abused them because you might you love them. You love them. I got you. But a lot of people out there don't love them. There's no statute of limitations on criminal act. We're coming after them. Sometimes I think you run the city like an HOA. I'm gonna hold I'm going to hold you to a deeper standard. We're not shaking our head yet. You can

yell at me later. I I filed a federal lawsuit today against the city of Surfside, the chief of police, and two police officers for violating Maria Pence's constitutional rights. And we will deal with that in federal court. It's a shame

you threaten my client with putting her in jail for violating rights that she has constitutionally. You know, I think I've become lawyer Dittle. I'm going to stand up for him. The good intentions you have, there's a lot of people killing God's animals. You know, and I say to you, I really think about it that you know, we ultimately have been given a lifelong responsibility in caring for God's creatures. We have and it's in your hands. And I want to thank you again. We We have a website now, goosegardians.com. We're going to help it. It takes It has to be a compromise. People can work together. Make her an ambassador. Let her pick up the goose poop. The geese are not leaving because she feeds them. The geese are here because there's grass and there's lakes.

And when they when when they go right down to the lake with the grass being cut, that's why they're coming up eating. Geese will not go over tall grass. I say in closing, what would Jesus do? Thank you. Thank you, sir. Well,

come on up. Good afternoon everyone. Um I'm Tristan Schaeer and that's a tough act to follow. Um I'm an attorney with Axel Rod and Associates. I'm not from Okay. I'm um I am one of the attorneys in the lawsuit, but I'm not going to talk to y'all about the lawsuit. I'll let y'all your lawyers talk about that with y'all. I'm going to talk about a couple of things that I think may help y'all out in the future. Okay. Um I think that there there's a goose problem and I think part of the problem is the fact that there's a misunderstanding and a lack of some research. Okay? And I understand that everyone does their best whenever they do research. I I get that. I'm not trying to say that someone didn't do something or anything like that. And I'm understand that, you know, town counselors are not made up of a bunch of lawyers who are in the books all day. Okay? But I think that it probably be a good idea if you guys talk to your lawyers about this. I think you should talk to them well. And I think that perhaps you should look into um whether or not adding additional restrictions more so than Ory County is preempted by the law by the Ory County ordinance. Okay? Because there's this thing called preeemption. And and Mr. Juul mentioned something to y'all about it earlier. He said that whenever you have a state ordinance, you can't a state statue, you can't touch it. Well, there's actually some indication that you can't make a more restrictive statute than the ordinance than the county ordinance.

Okay. And that's that's based off of Johnson versus City of Myrtle Beach. It's a old uh old case involving a zoning ordinance. And essentially it says that the zoning ordinance can't can't overrule some regional government a county government's statute or ordinance. Um so I think y'all really need to look at that before y'all try to make a ordinance that's more restrictive than that county ordinance. I also want to address something that Councilman Stamy said earlier. You had asked whether it's illegal to hurt the goose and whether or not it's okay to run them off, something like that. Here's the problem. It actually is illegal to run them off. You can't chase a candidate goose. There's that statute that Mr. Axarro mentioned with 16 USC United States Code 703. That's a migratory bird act. It says you can't take. Okay? and it used the word take which I understand that if you just read that you wouldn't think that anything of it but that's defined goes further and is deeper defined by 50 code of federal regulations 10.12 and that defines what take is

we'll say that again it's 50 CFR code of federal regulations 10.12 thank you

and what that says is you can't take incl includes pursuing or attempting to pursue a goose. You can't you can't run after them. You can't chase them manually. I'm sure that there's other ways that you can try to get them to leave a particular area that doesn't involve chasing them, but you cannot chase them under federal law. And the thing is is that South Carolina did adopt that and it's actually a misdemeanor under South Carolina law to do anything in violation of the migratory bur act. And that's 501 10 of the South Carolina cut. Okay. So, I I think y'all need to y'all need to really dig in deep before y'all look at this. Okay. I think y'all really need to dig in deep before you decide you're going to make this ordinance or how you're going to enforce the laws because I I haven't been around. Like I said, I'm not from here. Okay? So, I can't personally witness what's happening, but the stuff that I've seen on um Miss Peshy's or Miss Pie's website is definitely a lot of violation of state and local law. And my understanding is that essentially it's more or less condoned to run off the geese to chase them. Okay? Maybe not with sticks. I don't think any of y'all would say, "Hey, yeah, let's go hit a goose with a stick." I'm not saying that any of y'all agree with that. But chasing them alone is inappropriate and a violation of the law. Thank y'all very much.

All right. Thank you, sir.

Any other public comment? Come on up. Good evening or good afternoon. My name is David Sland at 120 14th Avenue North Surfside Beach. I've had a house here since 1983 when the roads were dirt. We didn't have a geese problem. They're migratory and we can the what you got to do is thin the herd and stop the feeding. Now, I heard what this attorney said, but that don't mean nothing. Okay? You need to stand your ground and do what's right. It's not right for the people to come to Surfside going down 14th Avenue and have to dodge goose Okay, I'm calling it what it is. I've washed it off the road. I've washed it off my driveway. It stains the driveways and that's not right. And I'm going to run them off. And I've done it. And it's not right for me to run them off into the next neighbor's yard. Okay? These geese were not a problem in 1983 up until the 90s when people started feeding them. They came here. They didn't leave to thin the herd. You got people will come in here and take some of these geese away. Okay. Now the squirrels and stuff, I'm not worried about them. They don't

do what the geese does. The geese will walk one foot and crap three foot. So it's up to y'all to stop this. Each and every one of you. That's what I'm looking for. Cuz I'm going to continue to run them out of my yard and my driveway. and the neighbors are going to do the same thing. So, I'm telling y'all to stop it and don't listen to this. Okay. That's what I got to say. Thank you. Thank you, sir.

Hi, Eva Helier, 7th Avenue North resident and biologist. I studied wildlife, fisheries, natural resources, limonology, ecosystems, and I was around when the migratory bird treaty act was put into place in the 1970s. I worked in Kentucky next to a a goose goose propagation center. So I am very acutely aware of the importance and the majesty and the truly have a love of geese. We have an overpopulation. It is true. geese goes to where there's lawn and water, but it's perpetuated by the fact that people feed them. Tourists come here, you see it all the time. They buy bags or they get salad or they bring white bread and they feed them. Results in angel wings. It results in all sorts of other problems. Their goose poop is documented and known to have ecoli, which is a bacteria in your gut that can make you really sick. It can harm your dogs and and it pollutes and contaminates our water base. That is known. So, we have to have a way of protecting the geese with these measures of deterrence. That's what Ory County tried to do in 2007 when they began the revisions. So, we look at ways of growing tall grasses in the shorelines so that they don't come up into the yards, using decoys, having dogs perhaps scurry them away. Those are not going to hurt them. That's going to protect them so that they continue being a good um neighbor to our ourselves. These birds are majestic. They should be viewed with photography and binoculars, not petted and and running up and down the streets with people. They shouldn't be fed by children. They should be allowed to be

what they are, wild. That that we very much need to respect. And I hear that often from among you. Feeding them, housing them, keeping them in your yard creates a lot of sanitary issues is unsafe for not only the persons that live there, but the surrounding neighborhood. So that is why Sirai Beach should definitely not be a sanctuary. There are more times when I see people stop to let geese, flocks of geese, walk the streets than I've ever seen anybody gun them down. I have never seen that yet and I watch for it. In fact, I think people should take their cameras out and take pictures of that every time they see it because I think you'll see more of that than the other way. We are not a goosehating town. I don't care what anybody says. We do not

Please stop the comments. Everybody was respectful with the other speakers. Thank you. And Mr. attorney. You two have been talking a lot too, so please. I'm sorry that we've been through it. It It is distracting and disruptive. Thank you. Add her time. Please. Yes. Okay.

We have signs posted everywhere. I have seen people standing next to them feeding. The signs say, "Do not feed the wildlife. Do not feed the waterfall." They're not paying attention. Fines are a deterrent. They need to be there for those who are in fact feeding them. Those who are in fact running them down and killing them, those who are in fact doing harm by removing their nests or getting rid of their eggs without a permit. That should be done. So we need to ensure those are in place with our regulations and that we have adequate staff trained and available to follow up and that we also do a lot of education because we're hearing even today a lot of misnomes or or misinuendo or misinformation. So routinely signs up saying hey it's goose season it's it's protect eggs time. signs up letting people know what they can do that is safe that doesn't kill a bird but does respect boundaries so to speak. We need to be able to educate our children. Photo contests, coloring contests, get the word out and do it every year so that it is a reminder that this is a goose loving town. This is how we protect our birds. Thank you for everything you're doing.

All right. Thank you. Thank you. Is there any other public comment? Come on up. Okay. Uh, Kale Craig, 11:15 Cedar Drive resident. Um, my question, I actually have a question. With all of this that we're talking about and all you're doing, is that going to enhance the town's ability to get help from wildlife to actually reduce the population? Because the elephant in the room is we have too many geese. They're not going anywhere. So, does this help do that? and our and our ordinances do not allow for interaction.

Right. Okay, that's fine. So that's in other words, I I I don't want to see this town go through all this effort and fighting a lawsuit and this that and the other when it doesn't enhance the ability to reduce the goose population and I listen to the Clemson person and there are steps that you have to go through before wildlife will come in and help whatever we're doing here. I would like to say let's make sure that we're moving towards that goal. That's my com. Thank you, sir. Anybody else?

All right. There are no council comments uh in a workshop. So, our remaining item is adjournment. Mr. Mayor, Mr. Stamy, I'd like to make a motion that we adjourn from this meeting. Second. Any discussion? All in favor? I opposed. None. Meeting adjourned.