Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

How much how much is going to be increased by the various people? Yeah. money.

We call the meeting to order for the pledge to the flag, please. [clears throat] to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

[clears throat]

First on our agenda is uh approval of last month's plan commission meeting. I may make a motion we accept the uh minutes of the last meeting as presented. Need a second? Yeah, I'll second. Any discussion? All in favor? I I I motion carried. Any correspondence, Tammy? Uh, no. Uh, next on our agenda is Dwire's subdivision. Anybody here to represent? Hi. You want to tell us what's going on?

Sure. Name and name and address.

Dennis Fer, 170 Town Hall Road West, Waterford. Um, what I'm doing is what I'd like to do. Um, 50 years ago when my dad sold me the property, he owned it all around there. Well, we never even thought about property lines and whatnot. Well, he is deceased now, but my brother inherited the house that he lived in last, and we always thought the property lines were different, but we found out they weren't. So all I want to do is just add on a little piece on the back of mine so my building is further from the property line.

That's it. Yeah. I have a building at one end. It's been 50 years and [laughter] we just I just want to make it's like 10 12 feet but my dad had it and did make a difference. Sure. You know I don't know what he's going to do. Sure. the E78 suggested the same thing. So, makes sense. Just a selection. That's the right thing to do to make sure that it's all legal and that it's surveyed properly. That's an important stand for all that. Yep. Any other questions? Call for a motion. I'll make a motion that we approve as presented. Second discussion.

All in favor? I thank you. Thank you. Next on our agenda is the Erie Sports Subdivision for several years. [laughter] Hopefully today we can take a positive step forward and [laughter] word.

But um basically the plan we have presented here today is is breaking apart uh property 3000 which is the main parcel of the sports park where you know the ice hockey rink in that building reside.

Um basically what what's transpired over the course of several years is they legally split the parcel but it's not actually divided. So, it's it's under one tax ID, but there's two separate owners that have owned the parcel and ran different operations under that same parcel. Um, so the piece that we're proposing to break off is the dome facility in the HN building um as well as the whole uh fun park area. And the reason that we're looking to move forward with this is the owner is actually looking to sell uh the majority of the sports park. So as part of the sale, you know, the the the people purchasing the property, you want to have that property divided so it fits into their ownership legally and not again under someone else's

tax ID. So um the the only caveat is we are um taking a small part of 305 which is kind of the southern property there and it wraps up the side. So um the reason for that is it's required for the parking ordinance um to maintain the proper parking spaces for the HM facility and the piece that we're showing to basically consolidate with the the subdivided piece is the old basketball court. So, Justin, I can the pointer there helpful. No, the side.

There we go. Yeah. Okay. So, what I'm what I'm referring to right here is this little rectangular piece. So, this is approximately a little over an acre and a half. Uh the rest of this is again just being split. So this would be the res residue piece that would remain as parcel of three. This would be the new piece with the addition of of this section here. [clears throat] Now as far as flow goes [clears throat] into the new parcel,

is that around and then through this side? Yeah. Is is that the way that works? to [laughter] do. Oh yeah. Now they cover that problem. [laughter] Um Okay. So I understand you have to come around and then through this way to get in.

Yeah. There's um there's access around that facility here like you mentioned. Um the other access is kind of right up here through that ramp and around the side here uh to access this this existing parking lot or blackbox area. Okay.

Now there's no clamps and anything here. Right. Correct. So what this kind of dash line is showing this is the existing access agreement. Um, so this this is basically for shared access through the property. Um, you know, one of the things that we've discussed with Tammy and Matt over the course of this project is is keeping that maintained and and operable just for safety measures, um, site access for EMS vehicles, things of that nature. Uh, and and [clears throat] all we did was we kind of basically pushed this out. So this is in compliance with the frontage requirement which kind of actually perfectly abuts with the edge of that that access easement. Now something else just to be aware of you know this this is kind of just an intermediate step. Um you know the the future owners whoever that ends up being cuz he has several interested parties. you know, the the the long-term goal would be to consolidate, you know, all of this into one continuous parcel. Therefore, eliminating

not done. No, no, far from being done. Um, eliminating kind of the side setbacks and interior, you know, setbacks and stuff because ultimately they want to do a lot of development on the property. It's it's it's going to be hopefully a great project for the township, but this is kind of the first step as far as like I said in kind of selling um to a to an interested buyer. Yeah, sure. Yeah. I the the concern was for [clears throat] EMS vehicles. Yes. As you as you mentioned, and I just didn't want to see anybody get boxed in in a way that uh an emergency happened. You know, these are events that attract large numbers of people and lots of times you need to have got you have a lot of vehicles in and out. you know, God forbid something happened.

Yeah. So, I that's my number one concern. And I think there's a lot of uh a lot of moving parts here. You know, there's uh yeah, those legal aspects to it and all that other stuff. Yeah. And I mean, part of what's been discussed, again, this is kind of all concept conceptual now, but actually bringing a secondary access down to Robinson Road here. Um we're actually working with the water authority to develop a new water line through here. So, you know, again, long-term vision there, there will probably be um an additional access point off of Robinson that would, you know, kind of connect Oliver to Robinson.

Okay. [cough and clears throat] responsibly only other area I guess that you work hard. So we want this done at the time of transfer or it needs to be when the supervisor approve it like

yeah and I I can expand on that slightly as well. So, um, basically what we did, and it's it's kind of hard to see on this screen, but this is this is a summary table here of of the different parking requirements per the ordinance and the uses currently on on this, you know, proposed subdivided parcel. So, we again had several discussions with Matt and Tammy to kind of come up with this number. uh we did apply the 15% reduction which left us with a required uh number of spaces of 199 and from from this plan with the two parking areas allocated we we've come up with 2011. Um so you know th this is basically all existing. There's a slight portion here that is not being utilized. Um, this piece on the back end is, you know, maybe there's a foot or two that's not paved currently. And then this is the fun parked area. So, this is kind of that ramp right in the center that I was talking about that you come up to. This is the main entrance. And there's that big kind of golf soccer ball dome that welcomes you. And what we showed here is is oneway traffic around the concrete pad. Um, to meet our again our our existing parking knowing that you know again this is likely to never be developed as it is as it's proposed today. It's just a formality, so we're in compliance with the ordinance, but also, you know, not skirting any rules and and and showing something that could be feasible [clears throat] um you know, if if it needs to be. And I think Ron, to your point, this is that driveway here that [clears throat] that looped around the dorms. Um, not shown on here, but this this kind of

loops around and it it comes right up through here. So, there's there's kind of a driveway here that wraps around the building. Um, one thing we did show here, too, is if if that wasn't I guess allowed, you know, I think I think there's definitely an option to develop a new driveway here, kind of [clears throat] wipe out this BM and and these couple parking spots and actually have a driveway that that comes up this front ramp cuz this is that other entrance way right here. How rugged is this right in here? Like if a vehicle absolutely had to, could a vehicle get in there or is it burn on the back? Is that what you're asking? Right here. So, right now, this is this is just a a burned hill. There's no actual driveway here.

Yeah, but I mean, if in an emergency, could a vehicle just bump the curb and move? No, it's too steep. Um, they would have to drive around the back here. Okay. I'm not familiar with that. Okay. All right. So, as far as requirements, would that be something we'd need to put in there to have that optional driveway uh accessible because either for they're showing it optional and required. I'm going to rain on everybody's great here. That basketball court still has hoops on. Okay. Um and looking at it, those hoops are taking up parking spaces. Gotcha.

So, need to have to go. And I know we're talking this is an interim step, but we've had quite a few interim steps that become permanent realities in this township. So, it has to be done in a way that will function from the time the plan is approved until the next plan comes through. Um, so whether they need to put millings down to get a suitable surface to get into that back parking lot and have a signage so people know how to get to it. Uh, you have to take whatever means are necessary. And we cannot approve this plan until those parks blocks are in an optical state. Because whenever it's subdivided and you go through all the the legal back and forth where people park for the winter [clears throat] used to be a busy area.

Yeah. I don't think it was when on the basketball court there. I don't see anything for ADA spaces and things of that nature, but I see it on the laptop down there. Yeah. Um, that's a good point. So, what we actually didn't include any ADA spaces here just because of the distance from this lot back to the the entrance of the the front buildings. Um, we proposed all of our ADA parking right here. Um just cuz again this is this is that main access point that most people will be coming in and out of.

So we yeah you're you're absolutely correct. We didn't have any ADA spots in here just because we felt it wasn't really um a good use of that that space. How many required depends on the use [clears throat] like for certain percentage depends on what the facility is. Yeah. Typically it's a percentage of the total number of spaces. So, what's required? [laughter] You know, I guess we went across that bridge though, too. If we're going to approve something that need approved and honestly, I don't think you can legally have a parking lot. Correct. I I don't I don't think that's that's going to fly at all actually. Okay.

Um that's just my experience. Sure. Um I've seen a lot of parking lots. Um, so I would definitely make sure you make that accommodation. Um, cuz it's definely it'll cause problems either way. Sure.

So, where does that leave us? The other question I have real quick is, is there an existing path from that court to the the dome structure? Um, I honestly don't know that, Matt. I can I can verify that.

I envision it it's kind of acting as one parking lot and if someone's going there, they're going to go to the fun park area, look, see if there's a parking spot. There's none there. And then they're going to get kind of coralled to the back to the basketball court and then find a spot there. And then they're they're cross country hiking into the ent. And that's how I took Chris's comment with the ADA. I I think this um basketball court parking lot is is compliant from like a slope percentage. You know, this is this is pretty flat, but yeah, point well taken as far as having an accessible ADA route to to the front of the building. So, if that is that something we need to evaluate and look into to add to this plan, um I think I think we could do that. I think it makes sense. The letter of the law kind of is what we have to go to. I definitely wouldn't feel comfortable with anything that isn't fully compos. There are a lot of people in this community that do look at that stuff. a lot entire organizations all they do is

so do we want to incorporate that in a what is this forward or not forward on conditions they're under a time frame what's that are you under a time frame or is probably not there yeah

there's always a time frame part part of the other thing I didn't mention yet and I I don't really have anything to do with this, but I I'm aware of it. Uh on the they the the current owners of, you know, the main parcel that's being subdivided went to court. Um basically the judge's statement was why are you wasting my time here today? And so they have a followup meeting on the 21st or hearing. I I don't know the correct term, but um so that that was part of the um the urgency for submitting this because we wanted to show that hey, we're moving forward. Uh surprisingly, both owners actually signed off on the plan fairly quickly, which in the past was not the case. It took 4 to 6 months to get signatures. So, um I think that's that's something else that's kind of behind the scenes going on. Uh, again, not sure how that's going to play out between the parties, but

the judge will let them know. I think the jud the judge will render a ruling hopefully on on the 21st. So, that saying, is that something we need to be uh as part of our discussion? I guess it's all wrapped up because we're concerned about parking spots, right? And the requirement is that the parking spots must be remedied at the day that up at the time the supervisors approve it before they approve it. That means lines on the parking [clears throat] lot or at least we talked about it. We need to work them paint the lines in at least this time of year going to be

fun. Uh I mean the one the one counter to that too and it it's unfortunate but the the main you know the residual part parcel with the the the ice ring facility um has over 500 parking spots. So if they were playing nice together that more than covers the required parking uh for AHN and the dome. So, um, you know, what what was kind of discussed too is like ultimately people from HN are going to park probably illegally on on on the other lot. Um, and that would be up to the the other owner to kind of enforce that. But like Matt, to Matt's point, you know, I think we could include signage, paint the spots and do and do that if that's required. Um because because again this has been an evolving project and it's constantly been changing and it's it's been it's been challenging for everyone in the room. So

referee. [clears throat] Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just presenting you know as much as I know. Um you know I appreciate your guys input too. I think those are well received. I never seen one quite like this. Have you? I've never seen one quite like this. Just quite creative. Yeah, it's it's interesting. But we're getting kind of jammed down our throat here. And it's just something that we need to spend a little bit of time to

Well, to to me it's Are the lines for the new property, do they [clears throat] meet the ordinances? You know, the the newly marked lines of the property, do they meet the ordinances? [clears throat] That's the the new part that you lined up. And I'm not I haven't heard anything that says, you know, like setbacks or, you know, lot size or shape or anything like that. I haven't heard anything that's negative. The only other thing that's on my mind then is parking. Am I correct?

Yes, ma'am. The issue is they're subdividing off a parcel that has no parking and unless they have if they had a a cross parking variance with the other parcel for we're told they don't. So they have to create the parking they have and in order to subdivide it that parking has to be there the day it subdivided. It's a catch 22 though at this point, you know,

and now we're in the there's there's no way you're going to get asphalt this time of year. Um, and I don't know what areas need to have park surface, if there's green space in that fun area that needs to be ripped out and filled in with pavement or if it's all 100% paved. Yeah, the um the only area that would need modified in the fun zone would be this little uh three stall angled spot here. There's a I think this is the practice screen for the course. So that that should be concrete underneath that little bit of okay

turf should be or is it I mean [laughter] if they build it on dirt I'd be extremely surprised. Um but yeah so that I mean as far as this layout and that's what we tried to do here obviously with the the urgency on on the timing and getting this turned around and submitted. you know, we basically tried to come up with a parking plan that had the the least amount of modifications necessary. Uh, initially we were actually looking at putting it in this kind of go-kart area, but with the grade changes and and stuff, it was actually a lot more drastic than we had kind of anticipated. So getting that to be feasible feasible parking was uh a long shot to say the least under the temporary conditions that you're kind of

Yeah. Exactly.

Here's where I'm coming from is that I I think that we the planning commission are just somewhat limited in what we can do. You know, we can do what planning commission is supposed to do. We're supposed to make recommendations. We're supposed to approve maps. And like I was getting to the map seems to me to be provable. How the h how things are executed from here on. We don't get involved in that on a day-to-day basis. My opinion. So I don't know what what are you guys think is the is the plan is presented meet does it meet the ordinances? That's my thing. The ADA is is a point.

It's it's a big thing for me. I'll tell you. I mean, professionally, I I could never have my name on something that is like that is not compliant. I just couldn't. It'd be putting my board and nervous as well. So So that's a stumbling block to me. That's a that's a st

unless it's a conditional, you know. Can you make it a condition? I know. Don't want to don't feel comfortable. That's almost the point where I have to call myself literally I'm trying to I understand the optics of what's going on. Um the contingency I may be able to live with, you know, um gi given all the circumstances that that is surrounding this plan, if you will. Um and everything else is fine. I think if it's if it's drawn out properly I again what happens if it stays this way. Sure. You know that's for sure.

It's a hard one for me. Sorry guys. I [clears throat] agree. Unfortunately it's a real good reality is how we have certain culdeacs because oh we're going to do the next phase next year and it never happened. So, do I call for a motion?

Well, is it appropriate to do a contingency for ADA parking spots? It's not It's not, and I agree, I understand what Christopher was saying. It's not pointed out in the plan. Is there a um is there a way that it can be approved conditionally? I mean I I know that there's this what November 21st thing. Yes. That's not going to hurry us to do the wrong thing. I know that I know that's not going to hurry us to do the wrong thing.

No, understood. I just want to make sure that if if we can if there's some way to accommodate that and to move this forward and you know one step further down the road um well and realistically the odds of this being completely approved by that date are it's not going to happen. Oh yeah and and I I acknowledge that too. Um, again, I like that they're going, they've started the process. They're seeing you like if you you go back and report that they this planning commission table canled it due to concerns with parking layout, then I think that's showing that you're making progress. Mhm.

But am I correct in saying that's the only concern that we've got? Is that we have to draw that we have planning commission can comment on Yeah. ADA access and

right I think that's the only thing. So and and looking at it I think five parking spots. These ones I I can see they they got the access. This one probably does too. This this one you drop someone off here. Do they have the slope to make it there? I I I don't know if it's too close to that ramp contour-wise because it's probably going to be you might have enough that it's not a ramp, but you're going to have too much of a cross slope maybe. So, any other suggestions? I called for a motion that we went to.

Well, can the can the plan be amended? How how difficult is it to amend the plan to allow for those ADA slots? Will there even be enough if if the ADA slots are added to the uh park? I I think currently the eight stalls is is what the minimum require. I think I think the numbers proportionally it makes sense, but I just wonder the about location practicality. Yeah, they're two different locations, right? Those are two different parking lots and they would both have to conform individually. Correct. Yeah. Now, if they're connected in a way,

could you argue [clears throat] that they're the same? Maybe there's a driveway. I don't know if that's [clears throat] you on the back end there. That's I mean is there any other place where you [clears throat] can create slots where you create parking slots? Um I think the answer to that is definitely yes. Um,

it it would create it would require some demolition like like you know right now I'm on the one in the fun park like this gazebo you know this loading area uh this is the maintenance building and this is the stage you know so there's batting cage so there's definitely some areas where you could one of the things we were actually talking about was converting this sand volleyball court to parking since this flat Again, just trying we try, you know, with the time sensitivity, we tried to just show something that was permissible today. So, yeah, I think the answer to that is definitely yes. It would just require some additional work. And like Matt alluded to with the weather

topic and as as an engineer, if I'm going to put parking spots on the the big lot, I'm going to take them away from this lot and just move them over there. So, the number of parking spaces won't change. It's just a matter of where they're located. Okay. Now, the thing that crux with that back lot is do you have an accessible path to the front door? Mhm. [clears throat] So, that's really issue number two. Yeah. That's a that's a separate issue. So, that's a pathway rather than just an ADA parking spot.

Right. So, I think my personal opinion is that I think there's just too much open here uh to approve a plan. That's that's the way I feel about it. Um and I know there's this uh 21st of November um deadline that you know you guys are shooting for, but well, it was brought in for you in front of the board. So I think that's showing some posit positivity, you know, to get boiling down to two issues. I mean that, you know, we're talking dirt and asphalt here. This isn't like something that's, you know, like sewer lines or water lines we have to rip up or anything like this. We're just we're talking about parking spots.

Sure. And it's it's you know, it's not impossible. I see you know that. Have you he started making efforts to to do this on the site uh in regards to like striping it? Striping and making sure that I I doubt it cuz if we if he gets to we have a month until the next meeting. If he gets it done, we can always have a field trip out there and plane [clears throat] commission goes out, takes a look at it. Yeah, I'd be willing to to do something out of cycle. If you want to do something out of cycle, you know, I'd be willing to do that. Uh, you know, are you okay with that, Chris? Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's fair. So, we'd be willing to do something out of sight. Okay. We don't have to wait like a whole month.

Okay. Appreciate that. Yeah. We still might still not going to meet your 20 Oh, I know. We've been battling this thing for years. Yeah, you're a seasoned veteran. We understand. Yeah. Anything is progress in my life. So, okay. So is that saying what's what's our motion then? Motion is to table until next meeting or some out of cycle meeting that would be before the next meeting. Okay, fair enough. Any more discussion? All in favor? I thank you for your time. Thank you. That was an interesting one. Good luck. Appreciate it.

Good luck. Next on our agenda is Commonwealth of Pennsylvania uh Department of General Services amended land development plan.

All right. I'm going to be representing this. I want to go to the voting because I have a minor. So this was put on the agenda [clears throat] real quick that way they can keep moving. But right now most of the facilities there. looking to add uh 40x60. I believe it's going to be evidence storage facility in the back here. Uh an 11 ft wide driveway leading back with a 7 ft improved um stone surface next to it to to get the 18 ft required access to the back. As part of the discussions, we talked to the fire department and they're doing they ran a separate fire line back to the facility with a fire hydrant. Uh cuz originally the the fire line stopped at the building, they they're doing a separate line going back. So if for some reason caught a fire, the fire department would have access to get back here and fight the fire. Um, and that would meet the requirement in the ordinance, which is any structure needs to have a fire hydrant within 500 ft cuz the existing hydrants over here, it was more than I think it was close to 700 ft away. So, they are currently, if it's not installed already, they are in the process of installing that fire line and hydrant, and it's going back to, I believe, this island here, uh, which is right next to their fueling station, which is convenient. Any of any extra uh requirements for storm water?

No. The existing storm water was sufficient to handle the the additional impervious. They had some built-in capacity. They got a lot packed onto that parcel. You know, there is a lot on here. That's why I asked the question because it doesn't seem like there's a whole lot of They have more than one facility. They have they have the above ground here that you can see as you drive by. There's underground here. There's another above ground here and then an above ground facility here. So, lot of storm water going on here.

I just I just wish for their sake they had more room, you know, because it looks like they're going to they've almost outgrown it already in the room. [laughter] Well, compared to what they have done since the Taj Mahal set.

Yeah. And what I I don't understand is why 11th power they they want to add this building. I I'm I'm sure it had to be planned as an integral part unless they want to change the complexion of the of the of the headquarters building and make it what the two buildings are in Lawrence Park. I I think and Tammy can correct me if I'm wrong, if I'm saying this wrong, but from my understanding was this was going to be kind of an add-on in the future, but as they're going along, they found the funding to add it now. So, why not put it in while you still have everybody there?

Law enforcement point of view to put a put a uh evidence storage facility that far from your structure. Originally, they wanted to put it up in this area, but with zoning, they didn't want to have to go through zoning the zoning hearing board process. They want that they're trying to keep things moving. And you have wetlands that they're trying to protected here. So, they can't build in this area. So, this was kind of like the last buildable spot they had. Like you said, from a law law enforcement standpoint, it doesn't Yeah. I don't think they're too keen on the location either, but it's the last area they had.

And and if they're going to eventually consolidate the the crime scene lab in there, they would need a fairly large for evidence. Yeah. But and and they don't plan to have this be a staff building. It's it's all it's just a storage. I heard maintenance building tractors. Is it going to be heated too? That would make I think it's cold storage. Yeah, it's going to be a cold storage building. Cold building. Unheated. Correct. Oh, yeah. Well, that makes sense. And it wouldn't be a facility. When you have court

No, I don't think it's going to be like where they keep active cases. It's going to be like and I might be not speaking right, but I think it's like stuff that's done and nobody just But it's still if you don't remove that, you know, you know better than I do. You don't remove from an area that's safeguarded that you can't that you can't swear up and down as the area has been protected. Yeah, that's good. And it's [clears throat] just kind of too far removed. But anyhow, it's it meets everything else. Yeah. I don't see any problem myself.

Yeah. And honestly, I think the only they they originally wanted it I think up in this area here, but they were going to be too close to the they were going to be within the setback and and they'd have to go through the whole um zoning hearing board and not knowing that it was going to be a sure thing and then it would be outside the fenced in compound. So that's why they moved it back here. Just wish they had more room for their sake. Yeah. Okay. Nothing like eating up. How was it like a 10acre parcel?

But we need a motion on that. Correct. Yes. Yes. [clears throat and cough] Call for a motion. I will make the motion to approve the plan as presented. I'll second the motion. Any more discussion? All in favor? I motion carried. Next on our agenda is the comprehensive plan update. I don't have anything this evening. I have nothing. Awesome. One year closer. Yeah. What? T minus two years business, [laughter]

right? It's exciting. Other reasons excited for that. Okay. Uh public comment all of you out there that we pack this place. Uh I need the adjournment. I'd like to make a motion that we adjourn. Second move. All in favor? I motion carried. Thank you.