Public Safety Committee - Regular Meeting

Call to order. Good afternoon everyone. Calling the Public Safety Committee and Community Wellness Committee to order. Roll call please.

Johnson and Kim, they are excused. And we are expecting Kim shortly.

Thank you. So I just want to say thank you for everyone. This is our first Public Safety and Community Wellness Committee of the year. And just in light of the recent mass demonstrations and the threats that we've seen against elected officials and also the tragic murder of Alex Priddy, ICU nurse, a community member and who was someone's son, I just ask that we all just take a moment of silence. Thank you.

I also want to just take a moment to just really ground us in the purpose of this committee as some of our colleagues haven't been with us throughout the entire duration of this Public Safety Committee and just all the work that we have done. In our last meeting that we had in October, we were able to review the city's protected class policies. We also heard from ACLU, the Minnesota Justice Research Center, they'll be here again. I mean also with some folks who have lived experience particularly talking about how cities across the country have expanded their protections for people with who have been justice impacted. Before that, we also reviewed some of our community first public safety programs with the parks and rec centers and also heard some powerful testimonies from our young people who has participated in the Awakenings program.

That meeting also took place the same day as the Annunciation shooting and it was like really really heavy for us but I just want to say thank you for everyone who showed up for our young people. We also had the opportunity to hear from our St. Paul Fire Department and recognize their incredible work particularly around recruitment and retention. And we heard from our partners in Ramsey County and received a briefing from Ramsey County Attorney John Choi and heard about just like law enforcement's efforts particularly related to drug crimes and some of the hot spots and activity along side the university corridor. We heard from executive director Molly from the listing house about the Work Now program and just the dignity centered work that they have done and because of that, know, this council also supported funding their Work Now program in our twenty twenty six budget.

So I'm just really grateful for that work and I'm also looking forward to inviting Listening House back and just hearing about how that program is going. And just overall just for folks to level set, we did not have a meeting in November and December but since then our city council has been very, very, very, very experienced and responsive particularly around some of the recent ICE activities that we have seen and community protests. We have issued a investigation. We posted public hearings which we're going to have one this council meeting. We've joined community members at town halls and last week we introduced our separation ordinance, entered into our legislative code and we're gonna be having a hearing on it today.

So all of this brings us together today for this moment for two important items that we'll be reviewing. One of them is the powers and structures of our existing Police Civilian Oversight Committee or PCARC. The second agenda item is hearing from the Executive Director Justin Terrell from Minnesota Justice Research Center on how the city can actually respond to some of the federal immigration activities that we've been seeing in this as we've been under like federal occupation. This is not this is the only time we'll talk about this, but this is an opportunity for us to ask questions and explore you know different things that we want to change in our policy. So with that I'll have I'll pass it on to Jenna to just introduce our first item.

SR2615, Police Civilian Internal Affair Review Commission, PCI ARC, Policy Process and Procedures. Presentation by PCR Coordinator, Sierra Cumberland.

Thank you so much, Sarah. And I just want to also just acknowledge as you're coming up here, really appreciate you joining us at the community town hall and giving some education to our community members particularly around participating in PC Arc. And as someone who like take this work really personal, as someone who was a commissioner, former commissioner themselves, I just appreciate the work that you're doing and excited to learn more about the process. And also I'll share to some of my colleagues, Gina and I will be working hard to make sure we don't miss anyone's hands. But if you, you know, like contact Gina if I'm not noticing you. Thank you.

Thank you, Terribly. And good afternoon, committee members. Thank you all so much for inviting me here to this space. I'm really grateful to be here and to see you all. I'm going to be providing an overview of the PC Arc. There are a lot of laws that interact with this process, and it gets complicated real fast. I think I could take up probably four or five of your full committee meetings. But I'm here today to provide a general overview and then really look forward to your questions after the overview. And I want you all to know, that my office is one floor below over on the 2nd Floor. And so any time you all have questions or would like to have a further meeting, I'm absolutely here for it.

Chair Bui and I served on the PC Arc together. We were commissioned members. And our terms almost overlapped with Mayor Her. So there is a lot of history with this PC arc. I left the commission to work as a City of St.

Paul employee. I'm currently the coordinator. So I do not have a vote on the commission when they're deliberating these cases, but it is my role to coordinate this process and ensure the rights of all are upheld throughout. So without further ado, we are housed the PCARC is housed in the Department of Human Rights and Equal Economic Opportunity, which you all may know as HERO. This is my little pronunciation guide on the screen here, PC Arc.

This is a group of up to nine community members. They are all St. Paul residents. And the focus of the PC ARC is to review investigations into complaints of police misconduct. Now, you'll see civilian initiated complaints misconduct.

And that means the commission reviews matters after they're brought forward from community members. So reducing barriers to filing complaints is a crucial piece of this process. The commission makes disciplinary recommendations to the chief of police as the result of these complaints, and they also have the powers to, make policy recommendations as well, which is a really powerful component of the commission's work. All right. So if someone, a member of our community, has an interaction with a Saint Paul police officer that doesn't go as it should, they have a right to file a complaint, And they can file a complaint with us in the hero department.

You'll see at the top, my little bubbles, is a very simple distillation of state law that to be a formal complaint, there needs to be an incident statement and a signature. So that means I can't take these complaints solely over the phone. We do have an online complaint form that folks can file and then also a paper complaint form. Folks can come to us at our office on the 2nd Floor, and I also regularly schedule study rooms at libraries, go out to nonprofit organizations and our community members to meet people in person in a space where they're comfortable to take their complaints. Again, reducing those barriers, we work really hard to provide accommodations under the ADA and language assistance.

I do speak Spanish, but we have our form translated into a few other languages. And that language line gets some good business from us too. All right. So once a complaint comes in, this is the process that it follows. I am a firm advocate in informed consent.

So I think it is really important that before folks put their name to paper, before they file a complaint, they have an understanding of the process that's going to follow. That is one of the most important aspects of my role is increasing awareness and ensuring that people know understand this process as they are getting involved. So the complaint comes in. I ensure that it meets those statutory requirements to be considered a formal complaint, and it gets reviewed by the internal affairs unit of the police department. Under the ordinance, the Internal Affairs Unit is the primary investigator of these complaints, and they put together a big packet of information, relating to their investigation.

They pull body cam footage. They get statements from witnesses, officers involved, and they write up SPPD policies that may be related. The PCARC is working to determine, is there evidence to show that these officers violated policies in the SPPD manual? These commissioners spend twenty to forty hours a month doing this case review. It is a really extensive undertaking. Chair Boy, did you have a question?

Thank you, Coordinator Cumberland. I just have a question particularly. Can you distinguish, is the Internal Review Affairs body separate from the PC Arc body? Okay.

Thank you, Chair. Great question. Yes. So the Internal Affairs Unit is they are SPPD, St. Paul Police Department. It is led by a commander and two sergeant investigators who are all sworn officers of the police department. They do also have, a professional executive assistant who or office assistant who manages a lot of the paperwork and helps them with their workload. But they are sworn officers that conduct these investigations. Thank you for that clarification. So the commissioners, after their twenty to forty hours of review, they get together at their monthly meetings.

And they hold discussion on, is there evidence to show that department policy was violated. They make recommendations to the chief of police. And under our model, the chief of police issues a decision, makes that final determination of yes, there's evidence to sustain this complaint or no, there is not. If the chief of police implements discipline, implementing discipline to his officers as employees under the union contract, the officers can file an appeal. It goes through an arbitration process that gets really complicated.

But once that process is complete, the person who filed the complaint, the complainant, gets a letter that lets them know whether or not discipline was implemented as a result of their complaint. So that is a very brief snapshot of a complex process. Chair Bouley, you had asked me about timeline. It is really difficult for me to give specifics because of there are so many stages in this process where there can be delay. One of the primary delays that we see is that under the Peace Officer Disciplined Procedures Act, also known as PODPA, police officers have a right to review the complaint filed against them.

And now if an officer is on leave for any number of reasons, then that process is essentially put on hold until returns to service and is able to review that complaint and participate hold in the process. Here a here are a number of authorities granted to the PCARC in the ordinance. Now these authorities come from admin code chapter 102. So as I mentioned, the PCRX role is to review investigation reports prepared by internal affairs. The ordinance does also state or independent investigators, but primarily it is the internal affairs unit that's conducting those investigations.

I'm sorry. Did you have a question? Okay. My apologies. The ordinance also outlines eligible complaint categories.

I brought copies of the 2024 annual report here too that you all can take a look at. I I don't have time to dig into that complaint data today, but you'll see in 2024, those complaint categories included discrimination, poor public relations, improper conduct, improper procedure. And the commission also has the ability to review improper use of firearms that's outlined in the ordinance. And the mayor of the city of Saint Paul, the chief of police, and the hero director can also refer complaints to the commission. The ordinance outlines that the commission can hire an independent investigator as approved by the mayor or hero director, per city contract.

The commission can request IAU, that's internal affairs unit, gather additional information. And again, that the bulk of their authority is in recommending whether a complaint is sustained or not. Is there evidence to show that a complaint is sustained? They recommend discipline and those policy changes that are really important. Historically, the commission has had complaint intake centers.

Currently, the active complaint intake centers are WESCO, or the West Side Community Organization, and the St. Paul branch of the NAACP. I mentioned before informed consent. And with this really complex process, the importance of granting accommodations and language assistance, my focus has shifted from establishing community complaint intake centers to getting out and creating relationships with community organizations and community members with the hope that I can work directly with members of our community who want to file complaints in a space where they're comfortable and with as much informed consent as I can. So you can see it.

This is my little outreach chart here. Outreach has been a big focus for my role over recent years. The the tabling, those gray bars that we've been working to increase, includes bigger events such as Rondo Days, as well as some of the more targeted local community events put on by district councils and organizations. Over the last three months, we've also had a libraries tabling pilot where our staff has gone out to Sunray, Arlington Hills, Rice Street Library, and Rondo Library slash the Hallie Q. Brown Center and held office hours in those library facilities to be more available and accessible to complainants.

As we all know, parking around City Hall can can be a little tricky. But also to provide information directly to members of the community who use those libraries. The blue bar is presentations. So we have a PCR presentation as well as a broader presentation on all of the free services offered by the HERO department. I have my contact information up here on the screen because the more we can get out into the community, increase awareness, and build those connections, I think the better we are all served by this process.

So that's my little plug. If you know of a space, a community group, or an upcoming event that may be interested in learning more, I'd love to be there. Here is my contact information. One last little plug. We did just set the date for the twenty twenty six PCARC Annual Summit, where we'll be reviewing data from 2025. That annual summit will be May 20 at 6PM in the beautiful North End Community Center. So I hope to see you all there.

And

with that, I welcome whatever questions you may have.

Thank you so much, Cumberland. I have a question from Council President Nacre.

Thanks, Madam Chair. Thank you so much for the presentation. And I'm especially glad you referenced the annual report because a lot of the questions I had like, how often does internal affairs not send something to you and why? And how often does the police chief depart and why? Is all answered right here. So thank you for that. I'm curious if you can speak a little bit more about how the independent investigations part works. I know we had some conversation about that at this table recently and I I would appreciate it just a little bit more understanding of how the PCR can ask for that, what the counsel's role is, what the mayor's role is, etcetera. And how that I guess relates to an internal affairs investigation.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Committee Member Naker. I am not a lawyer. I will say that working with our city attorney's office on these legal processes is really important.

To my knowledge, the commission has never hired an independent investigator, at least since the commission was moved from the Saint Paul Police Department to the Hero Department. This has never been done. I will say that at the December 6 meeting on the public portion, the commission did hold a vote and made a unanimous vote to request an independent investigator of some police actions. And per the the ordinance that hiring of an independent investigator through city contract would need to be approved by the mayor or the the hero director. There are a lot of laws that govern this process.

And as we who work with this commission know, it's imperative to work with the attorneys to ensure that the way things are investigated, the way cases are deliberated, do not undermine the case downriver in say the arbitrations process. So I'll say it is unprecedented. We are here to speak with city leadership about the PCAIRC and I will say that the Commission did make that ask at the December meeting. But as far as the details of the process, there are a lot of different ways that this could go. We are St.

Paul is a member of the National Association for Civilian Oversight of Law Enforcement, also known as NACOL. That's a nonprofit that gathers civilian oversight entities. They outline best practices and strive to provide trainings. And so there really are a wealth of resources. My colleagues in NACOL would also tell you there are no two oversight systems that look exactly the same. So there are many different ways that something like this could be done, and especially could be done the St. Paul way.

Thanks, Ms. Bouie. This might be or Madam Chair, I'm sorry. This might be a separate question maybe for our attorneys. But I'm curious then, knowing it's unprecedented, but if the PCR does unanimously or by any vote request an independent investigation And the mayor and the human rights director do not approve that investigation.

Is there any rationale or any transparency related to that that the council, for example, knows? You know, it sounds like the council doesn't really have a role in that, but I'm wondering how we would get daylight into this request was made, it was denied, this is why. And I'm still wondering if either way, if an independent investigation happens, does an internal affairs investigation still also happen and those two things are running in parallel, or is it one replaces the other? And again, if you can't answer those, we can

That's a great question, miss Nacre. I will say at the January 20 meeting, Assistant Mayor Jody Farr came to the public portion of the PCARC meeting to meet the commissioners, talk a little bit about the process, as well as to briefly discuss the request. It has been requested by the commission that whatever direction the mayor would like to take with this request, there does be a public discussion and transparency as much as allowed by law. So I will say the conversations are ongoing. The matter of simultaneous investigations, I know that it gets very sticky very quickly and I would refer those matters to our colleagues in labor relations.

Thank you, Ms. Nacre.

Thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate the questions. I have a set of questions as well, particularly around just the policy making recommendation process. I do see here in the annual report there's a a result of some discussion, the commission did make some recommendations particularly around like standardizing resources for officers to provide you know information to victims. Can you expand a little bit more of like some more of the policy recommendations, particularly, you know, what the council can actually be helpful in or if these are just policy recommendations for, like, better practices for police?

Absolutely. And and yes to all the above. So there's a few different ways that the commission can make policy recommendations. One, the department often proactively brings policies to the PCARC. States, you know, this is a drafted policy that we have made.

Commission, what is your feedback? And so then the PCR can provide that information proactively as policies are being drafted. Also, as the result of the deliberation of a case, the PCR can issue direct policy recommendations as the result of their review. And then there's also the ordinance outlines that the commission has the ability to discuss trends And that is where last year the commission noticed that there had been an uptake in trends from survivors of domestic violence in our community, an uptake in complaints from survivors, and that the commission had noticed some trends. So in the public portion, they held a discussion of what those trends were and made full made a list of recommendations.

And those recommendations included that officers be equipped with resources to provide directly to victims. Police have one role on scene, but there's a lot of needs presented by survivors that one entity alone cannot fulfill. So the connection to those resources is really important. Chief Henry did inform the PCARC that all officers received a refresher on the blueprint for safety, the domestic abuse protocol, as a result of that. So the commission has the ability to have those ongoing trends discussion.

I will say also the the the city council is welcome to leverage this really powerful group of community members of if you all are considering a policy to be implemented, I know for a fact that the commission would would love to hear from you, love to work with you. Each of our monthly meetings do begin with a public portion. And so there is that ability for council members to come and share drafted policies. And then I also see an opportunity for a partnership to be strengthened in when the commission is seeing those trends, making those those policy recommendations, not case specific because those laws are a little stricter, but policy recommendations around trends. I see an opportunity for partnership with counsel to work on that too.

But to my knowledge that hasn't been done.

Yeah, that was my next question. If there's been examples in the past with former counsel members that we saw this like policy change or recommendation brought to this body?

To my knowledge, my most recent examples that I can think of are around the PC Arc ordinance in and of itself. And the really extensive community engagement process that went on and then resulted in a number of changes to the PCR process in 2017, 2018, which included moving the PCR from the St. Paul Police Department to where it lies today in the HERO department.

And my last question, I open it up for just about two minutes because we have to get to our next speaker. But about the complaint process, Is there an option for someone to submit a complaint anonymously?

It's a good question, council member. I'm sorry, committee chair. No problem. So we have this formal complaint process. I will say that if someone is concerned, does not want to submit a formal complaint and put their name and their personal information to the complaint, I would work with them to document as much of the information as possible and then work either with the Director of Hero to have that matter referred to the PC Arc for review and or refer the matter directly to the Commander of the Internal Affairs Unit for investigation and follow-up.

Got it. Well, thank you so much for this overview. It feels really good to get a refresher, particularly now that know, as a council member but chair for the Public Safety Committee. If there's any other questions, I would love to gather them and bring them your way. But until then, thank you so much for your time and we'll get back to you. So, we're going to be switching any other questions that people have? Okay.

If I can just say thanks so much, everybody. I'm really grateful to speak with you all today, and give me a ring any time. Thank you.

Thank you. Excellent. So we will be moving on to our next agenda item. Jenna is just getting the presentation. But as she's getting that presentation ready, I'm just going to give a quick little overview.

So we have Justin Terrell here who's Executive Director for the Minnesota Justice Research Center and many of us know him in other capacities. But he's going to be giving some recommendations for responses to ICE operations particularly in Minnesota. We do have some attachments here. Please feel free to ask some questions but we're just going to get a general overview. I can imagine as Justin initially last month agreed to present there's been a huge escalation of many things that we can be doing as a council. So just going to welcome you Justin to the body.

Yeah thank you Chair Bui, I really earth Monday. Are we

doing here? Bouley is fine.

Bouley is you for having me. I'm really excited to share with you guys a little bit of our research. So my name is Justin Terrell, I'm the Executive Director of the Minnesota Justice Research Center. Our organization is a small community based nonprofit out of nonprofit based out of Sabathany Community Center in South Minneapolis. Ironically in the neighborhood of Rob Brook and the mission of our organization is to transform the criminal legal system.

And so we do that through three major tools of research, education, and policy development. We worked on a bunch of really great projects I would love to tell you all about. But for the sake of this conversation, I'm jump into presentation. So back in December, when we were all anticipating what is currently happening, you know I spent a lot of time on the phone connecting with community members and stakeholders to figure out what how could we prepare a memo or a document that has identified some best practices from other cities, from frankly from local folks that we talked to offline, and you know whatever data was available, and then just put something out for public officials to be able to react to. And so we paired that with a blog post, and so what I'm presenting to you today is really our AI version of that blog post and memo.

And so happy to answer any questions after the presentation, but it'll pretty direct. So, as we know, Operation Metro Surge intimidates entire communities. And so, we have, you know, vulnerable community members such as, you know, our black, brown immigrant community members. We're talking about law enforcement not being clear about how to show up in some of these situations or if they can even like object to what they are being told to do. The legal community obviously there was a lot of pressure on our big firms.

That was one group that we did speak with in the legal community and their response to sort of what the federal government is doing. It's been a challenge for them to navigate. And then folks who are actually involved in you know civic engagement, nonprofits or whatnot, we're all feeling the pressure. So this is a quote that I just like to use. If you've read Angela Davis, you know this quote pretty well that if they come for me in the morning, they will come for you in the evening.

So sort of my talking point here is that we are witnessing construction of a massive infrastructure that kind of forced when I talk to black veterans who served in the military, they would tell me that 3,000 agents is the kind of force you would assemble to invade a country. And so this is a massive infrastructure that I think people need to understand is much bigger than is necessary obviously, but what do you do once you've invested those kind of resources? It's rare that we see people not use them. So the other thing is that we looked into the data, and obviously we feel very strongly about this that ninety five percent of the folks who have been taken into ICE custody have been shown to not have a criminal record. This data can be disputed, I just want to be clear that there are other sources.

The problem, main problem that we have is we don't have a source from the federal government that we can rely on where they're telling us who they are picking up and what their backgrounds are. So we came up with sort of a three pronged response that we advised public officials to consider. So one, provide information. So we learned this during the uprising twenty twenty that information kills rumors. Right?

And so we would love to see our local officials or our local government governing bodies use excuse me. Excuse me. Take advantage of the opportunity to provide as much information as possible. Number two, define the role. So I think we've moved when we wrote this in December obviously we were still having this conversation, but I do want to shout out the city of Saint Paul and Minneapolis and a lot of the suburban areas for defining what their officers are doing, saying that they're here for crowd control.

The best example is the National Guard hanging out at the Whipple Building handing out coffee and donuts, Making it clear who they are there to serve, because you've experienced in Saint Paul especially, there was an incident where that was really unclear. And then finally, violations. And so when we wrote this, we didn't have the ACLU, we didn't have the AG's office or Hennepin County taking complaints, and so we recommended filing complaints with the DOJ just so that you could create a paper trail. Now obviously, based on recent behavior from the DOJ, we know that they won't be invest we can assume that they won't be investigating much. So I kind of cut so I think I won't go into much more detail on these three pillars.

Lastly, and this is based primarily on a letter that was sent to Department of Homeland Security from the city in New Orleans. I have a mentor who lives in New Orleans and we try to reach out and talk to folks in other cities across the country. And they sent a really meaningful letter and I think they're having a different experience in New Orleans than we are here. But we basically this is information that we suggest the Department of Homeland Security reports to local officials. So stops and outcomes, detailed data on stops, detentions, warrants and results, civil rights.

So how compliance is being monitored during enforcement, location, length of stay and legal basis for detention, demographics, race, gender, immigration status, due process, our people getting access to legal representation and family contacts, health and safety, access to medical care and necessary medications. Now, when we wrote this, we know that this was our recommendation to say, hey, we should ask for this. Fast forward a month and we know none of this is pretty much happening and it's even rumored that and I saw one report that ICE is not even documenting traditional paperwork of how they would operate in the field. And so, one big concern is that there is a paper trail that is being erased.

Thank you. One moment Justin, we have a question from Council President Nacre.

You Madam Chair. This that was going to be my question. I think you mentioned that New Orleans had requested this data and I guess I was going to ask and has that been provided, but it sounds like was that at one point provided to the city of New Orleans and and just not since or?

So New Orleans asked for a bunch of things. They also asked that the officers don't mask and whatnot. And all I can say is that they're having a different experience than us. I don't know, but I mean, this is an extreme experience. Let me be clear.

So I don't know what information has been shared between the city of New Orleans and the Department of Homeland Security and the people I'm talking to in New Orleans aren't a part of the government. So a couple more detailed recommendations, feel free to take them, feel free to leave them, is that you know having morning or evening briefings is really wise during moments of crisis. Right now we see a lot of responding to situations with press conferences. We would encourage public officials to do something consistent that people can follow. And then documenting and reporting violations as well, which I think we've built somewhat of a pretty impressive infrastructure, you know, with the AG's office, ACLU, Hennepin County, I think I'm forgetting somebody, but the reality is that

Gender justice.

Gender justice. Thank you. Like, there are lots of folks who have stepped up to try to collect this information. The coordination around how that is shared with each other, I anticipate to be a problem that we want to try to figure out how to solve.

Just a quick question.

And then

Quick question, Justin, about the data sharing. Because I think that's a really important key. There's like data collecting that community are just doing just as an act of response Yeah. Right of people who are being detained. But and it's okay if you don't have it in here, but I just want to just be able to pick your brain around what is like the data sharing that you're seeing amongst like government entities and like private entities.

We're hearing that data surveillance is being shared through the camera systems, people's phones, Lexicon, which is like a data platform of transactions and consumer behavior. Do you have like a grasp of like what all data is exposed to Department of Homeland Security?

No, madam chair but I will say that it's probably safe to assume everything. That Homeland Security is collecting everything and using measures that we wouldn't even anticipate. Once again, this is a multi billion dollar force that has been assembled to do exactly what it is doing and so surveillance and reconnaissance is part of that. And so as far as like local data sharing goes, you know, we don't have any explicit advice for the AG or the county attorneys on how to do that. It's not really our place to advise on that.

We'd want to spend some time looking at best practices, but we want to encourage that we figure it out, as well as we want to encourage that we figure out how to sustain some of the community practices that have been developed during this moment. So how do we sustain rapid response in communities when there's other incidents that we've experienced in the city of St. Paul just in the last year? How do we make sure folks are community members are still connected to each other and talking to each other in a powerful way? I think these slides kind of speak for themselves, but you know once again, we encourage public officials to request that ICE agents don't wear a mask and that they clearly identify themselves.

That they respect due process and document that they are using due process. Ironically, one of the things I will say, I don't know if the other graphic we recently shared was included, but and I'll wrap up, I think I'm done

after this. Is it this one?

Yeah. There's another one. We it's more of a meme. But ironically, one thing that I will say is that it's okay. I got it. It's alright. Thank you. Is that with, know, now I lost my train of thought, of course.

No problem. Council member, Vice President Kim had a comment. Did you want to share or?

Maybe it'll jog your memory. One thing that I really appreciate about this is that, you know, we talk a lot about what we're building right now and there's a lot of rapid response. And I think what's really important is that these systems of care continue regardless of who is in power because quite frankly the systems were already broken. Families were already scraping by. I'm asking for mutual aid for residents right now to pay rent that's due in four days that do not have it today.

So it's just to name I think like what I want to lift up and what I'm hearing is like you are offering us a different perspective on where these systems go and what we build and what they're for. And ultimately for me, which I think is similar to you, is that if it's not creating a culture of care then we are not utilizing this moment in time to to make a different world. We actually have an opportunity both while we resist, but also to create. And non tangentially, the thing about the IDs and that they are using technology to identify us is happening every single day right now for observers and folks that are on patrol. They can they are for someone that is, watching an ICE agent move through their neighborhood, that agent will drive them home, lead them to their own home, sit in front of their house as if to tell them, we know exactly who you are, we know exactly where you live.

And so this intimidation tactic is terrifying and also they are utilizing incredible amounts of data to identify who we are in moments in time, not an hour later, like actively within ten minutes, they can identify who you are. And that's not just someone that is following, that's just people out in our community because their level of surveillance is extraordinary right now. And I think one of the contributing factors is that flock data. And so I'm really I need a data one zero one. I requested this from council member Coleman to help understand where are the data points that we can sort of enact change and and legislate here on the on the local level. But it's just to emphasize both how terrorizing it is, but also what our greatest opportunity to move forward together looks like.

I know this isn't church madam chair, but I would just say amen. So our message to the community is check on your people, take care of each other, right? Find trusted organizations, vet organizations, so Miraak and some others are doing an amazing job. But not every organization knows what they're doing, right? Be vigilant, stay aware of your surroundings, yes, I mean I would say they're probably doing stuff in real time, right?

Know your rights, get some rights training, know your rights training, contact elected officials. You know we have to acknowledge what happened with Ilhan last night, but also in her remarks, talked about all the people she's been helping navigate this process. And then show up and participate and remember that we are the greatest resource we have to fight back against this invasion. Madam chair, I had two tangential tangential things.

Okay.

One is that we just put up a graphic that points out the fact that there's 301 worst of the worst folks that ICE has identified saying that that's why they're here. 301 individuals in prison custody and in jail custody and it's about half and half. Think the DOC does participate in executing those detainers and so it's just really important that community members know that Wise has arrested over a thousand people. We only have 300 that fit the profile of what they say they're looking for. And so this is something that local officials are gonna need to want to investigate, interrogate and hold our federal government accountable if possible.

And the last thing I'll just say is that on the sheriff piece, they the jails they say that they want us to be able to hold people for ICE detainers and I would just remind all of you that if you have questionable status, you're arrested for a crime and released on your own recognizance, bail or with conditions that it is unconstitutional to hold you beyond that process. And so, what they're asking us to do is to break the law. And I would encourage public officials to interrogate that and to make sure we sustain people's rights.

And council president has a question.

Thanks so much. Madam chair, I know we're trying to close, Mr. Terrell, you're just such a fount of information, I can't help it. But take advantage of the time that we have you here. I really appreciate that point about just the data and the numbers because I think that that's something that is blown wildly out of proportion too in terms of how people locally and also people around the country and around the world think about Minnesota right now.

I'm curious, you mentioned three zero one people in prison or jail, but I think there's this conception that the folks that federal agents are going after are people who have committed violent or horrible crimes and who are not in custody. And so I'm curious, are there data points or any information on because we we do we take public safety so seriously in the Twin Cities, and we we do hold folks accountable. And so this concept of people who have just not at all been held accountable who we need federal agents to come in and help us find is just kind of mind boggling. So are there other data points on that?

The DLC has all of that information available on I believe on their website and we are asking them for more information so we can translate that. But you're absolutely right, they are saying they are targeting form they're basically targeting formally incarcerated people. People who have been convicted of a crime, who have served twenty years in some cases and are about to complete like five years of probation, those are the people that they are are they're finding in community but the real issue is you have to ask a process question which is why are they in community because when their status was in question while they were in custody, ICE is the one that did not come and collect them. And so they are finding people in our community with criminal histories. One, they have been held accountable.

Two, they are only in community because the federal government hasn't done its job. Minnesota is doing its job. Frankly, we would argue that we could we should probably honor twenty years in prison and five years on probation as a track or on ramp back into society and maybe consider not deporting people who are ready to make society a better place. But, our current situation is one where ICE is the federal government is facilitating all of this.

Thank you. That's really helpful.

One more question and we have to wrap. Two more questions and then we have to wrap up.

Just to simplify that point. So, one of our community elders on the East Side that was taken out in the dead of winter with no clothes on or like headshorts on blanket, the person that they were looking for was in Sherburne Jail and has been there since 2024 or 2023. So it's just to exemplify the point. Like some of their most egregious acts looking for folks that they're claiming to be like dangerous criminals have already like to your exact point are already in our carceral system and are like so like what who are they taking out of our communities? And so that process question is like such a such a good one. So I really appreciate you lifting that up.

And then Councilmember Yang. Thanks, Chair Bui. I was just you read my mind there Council Vice President Kim that was a person who was detained in my ward. I mean I'll just say what I've been hearing and been believing to like these agents are very lazy people also like very lousy too. And I just really appreciate Justin the information that you shared like the research behind all of this is so important because it really is how we debunk the things that comes out of Trump's mouth which is that you know he's saying this is about public safety, it's about immigration but we know that Minnesota isn't even the state with the highest number of undocumented immigrants either.

And so it's not about immigration. And if it was, then why would he be wanting the Minnesota voter registration rules? And so I think for I'm very grounded in the work that needs to happen, especially in the narrative, building the narrative around what this truly is about. And that's really something that I would love to see more, even more elected officials come together to be really outspoken and unified and really strong on. Because I know I mean, the right wingers, they're going to spend everything.

They're spending the narrative about why Alex Petty died and Renee Nicole good too. And we have to come back 10 times, 100 times even stronger because they're so wrong about everything. I would love to touch base with you offline. I've asked our city attorneys whether they're collecting data about the impacts that St. Paul has experienced as a result of the surge we're seeing here. And I think there's just so much happening where like there we don't have a way to really be able to capture how many people in our in our city has been detained and from what wards for example. And so those are things that I'm really curious about. I would love to chat with you more on.

Council member we would love an opportunity to dive into any of those questions.

Well thank you so much Justin for your time and your expertise. I know that this issue does not end here by any means. We will continue to inform this work. When I think about just some of the highlights that you mentioned, one of the things that resonates deeply with me is checking on your people, right? There is no data policy that can actually stop us from being able to check on our folks and building a community of care.

Just this morning, literally before I even came into the office, one of my residents and a good friend of mine who's been an activist on the front line was just detained today in the Hallie Q. Brown parking lot and I just had a chance to talk with our director. We've seen just unprecedented levels of ICE van staging. So we're just seeing you know a federal government that's unlawfully and not even really even addressing our laws. So I do appreciate just like transparency around how we can use data to prove that they are awful lies right in calling that out.

Also I would just want to say too like I want to follow-up our next public safety committee meetings is gonna include the post board. I'm gonna be also reaching out to state representative Cedric Frazier who was supposed to follow-up with you today. But you know of course there's been a lot going on so we'll get a chance to hear about some other best practices. And then in February we'll also be reviewing our opioid settlement funds and making sure we're keeping our fentanyl intervention plan at the top of our priority because we all know that all of this stuff is intersectional, just like we've been trying to address many of the the drug crimes and folks suffering with drug addiction like we're now compounded with you know this other level of of attacks. So there'll be more conversations in our policy retreat.

This is the last meeting that we'll have at one p. M. So we'll be reconvening at ten a. M. On the fourth Wednesday of every month. But with that Justin, thank you. Please be safe and thank you for your time.

Thank you so much.

So we now adjourn. Thank

you. That was great.

Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Appreciate it.