Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

I allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Thank you for joining us this evening. Madam Secretary, would you like to do roll call, please? Chair Philip Landry here. Vice Chair Russell Alexander absent. Nette Douglas here. Don Grisby present. Ruby Bridgeport here. Dy Snider here. Megan Marshall present. All right. As I understand it, tonight is a training. Correct. Yes, please.

Train us. Train away. Train.

Good evening. Melissa Duncan, director of community development. Um, yes, tonight is a training session. However, before we get started with the training, I just wanted to mention that for tonight's meeting that did uh get cancelled due to no items being on the agenda, we did advertise for a zoning map amendment. The zoning map amendment number was um ZMA25-00005. That's the case number. The ordinance number is 2025-59. um that was advertised for tonight's meeting, but we had to push it to next month due to the future land use element. It needs to follow that, so it could not um come tonight. So, with that,

I'm going to do an introduction of our trainer tonight. We have here John Adams, John F. Adams of RJ Whitten and Associates. Um he is the vice president and shareholder of RJWA, Inc. He has over 40 years of experience in land use planning and entitlement strategy. He leads major planning and entitlement projects throughout central Florida. Has contributed to OciOla County's comprehensive plan. Assisted in establishing several mixeduse districts within the county. Prepared and processed binding letter binding letter of vested rights for Oyola Heritage Park. He supported the development of the east 192 CRA design guidelines ordinance and he has collaborated on Ocola County's smart code chapter 4 rewrite and chapter 12 fire protection standards. He's advised AECOM county staff and stakeholders uh on the implementation of the mixeduse districts one and two specifically and participates in the chambers growth management task force uh to help develop a marketdriven MXD smart code and he regular regularly offers technical guidance and public testimony at staff meetings, workshops, hearings and adoption proceedings. So, I just wanted to give you some of his credentials here tonight so that you understand that we have someone here that has many years of experience and he's going to give you a little bit of history on mixeduse districts and um some of the regulations. He will explain the presentation format. He will allow for questions and answers. We are hoping to have a part two to this because it is very uh complicated and um tonight he's going to do more of a high level training and if you guys are so interested we can come back and do part

two which would be more of the design side. So with that without further ado I introduce to you Mr. John F. Adams. All right. Thank you. Thank you Melissa and uh good evening. Good evening.

Um, my name is John Adams. Obviously, I want to especially thank Melissa for pointing out that I've been doing this for 40 years. I think it's important for everybody know how old I am. So, if I misspeak or something, if I screw up, please uh take that into consideration. I do have a very long history with developing this mixeduse district in the county, among other things. I really have and I think it's important I've gone through some of the history why this was developed in the county and how it relates to you is with your joint planning agreement your JPA you've accepted the county's mixeduse district policies and significantly accepted their code as part of that agreement u after I go through some history and a purpose behind it. I'll go through some of the general principles of the mixeduse district and then I'll show some examples of actual concept plans. If you have questions, that's fine. You can interrupt me, but I'd like you to maybe wait until after I get done the history and then get done the second section which goes through some of the the comp plan comprehensive plan policies and then uh I'll open up for questions towards the end. But at your discretion, you're welcome to interrupt me as you feel necessary. So, mixeduse district. First question you need to ask yourself, which everybody has, why why do we need this? How many of you lived here in 2003? Okay, remember what it was like in 2003? The roads were crowded. The schools were crowded, drainage problems. We have the

same problems we have now. They're just exasperated because of the growth rate we've experienced recently. This was Oyola County's comprehensive plan, land use plan in 2003. I want you to notice all the different colors. All those colors are a different land use category. They mean some different type of development, but especially notice all that red along 192. That's commercial. Okay. We had a population just under 200,000 in 2003. We had thought I hit the We had about 104,000 residential units. Our density at that time, which included both CM and St. Cloud, was 1.04 04 dwelling units per acre. Now, Florida statutes 163 requires every jurisdiction in the state to actually project growth and create a comprehensive plan with land uses to manage that growth to provide enough densities to accommodate that growth. our growth projection back in 2003 that we were going to double our population by midentury.

Now, I think we've already we've already gotten there and it's not even anywhere near midcentury. So, we've actually exceeded the projections, but I want you to take a look at that. If you don't remember anything else about tonight's presentation, please remember this map. Look at all those colors on the map. If you maintain the suburban density of 1.04 dwelling units per acre, you would have to double that area where the colors are. You would have growth from Disney World to Yehaw Junction. Just imagine the roadways, not the cost of installing them, but the cost of maintaining them. the water lines, the sewer lines, the cost of all that maintenance, police, fire, emergency services. Just imagine the cost involved in maintaining that. Imagine the schools. We'd have kids going to school from 6:00 in the morning to 9:00 at night and then we'd have to put a whole lot more school buses on the road and build more schools. Imagine that cost. It was identified that maintaining the 1.04 04 dwelling units per acre. Doing the same thing that everyone was doing since Disney opened was not sustainable without raising taxes to pay for it all. I'm not talking about the increase in property values due to inflation. I'm talking about actually increasing millage rate. I don't know how many politicians want to run their next campaign on I want to raise your taxes, but that is the only way to sustain it to keep doing what what had been done in the past. The county was required to do an earbased amendment, a evaluation appraisal report. Every minimum of every seven years, every jurisdiction has to

do an earbased amendment uh filed with the state for their comprehensive plan. They had multiple residential categories with all those different colors on the map. And there's the different residential categories. They had everything from low density to urban and semi-suburban. They had multiple commercial categories, but they only had one color on the map, red. commercial was by policy identified to the roadway network and intersections that would support that development. Well, the question was asked, why not have residential and all the different residential categories the same way? That was the very infancy or infantile stage of the mixeduse districts. Also in 2004, I need you to try to understand some of the politics here. We actually had five out of six development of regional impacts and there was two DCIs and and four DRIs and they were all submitted to Oyola County. Now, I don't know if you're familiar with a DRRI. We haven't done a DRRi since 2004 in Ocola County because of doulas and everything else. It gets real complicated. But a development of regional impact meets a certain threshold where it has to go through a regional review prior to coming to a local review. It's got to go through the East Central Florida Regional Planning Council. Everyone's invited from the Ottabbon Society, the Friends of Florida to uh the county, the jur all the jurisdictions surrounding

it. 50, 60 agencies review this document. It's a very comprehensive, cumbersome, expensive process to go through and review. Well, alto together that was about 26,000 units and 4 million square feet of commercial back in ' 04. And here's the county saying, "Wow, what are we going to do?" They were all submitted and going through the process. What do you think the politicians did? They certainly had some sticker shock. Okay. Well, what they did in conjunction with the East Central Florida Regional Planning Council, they actually hired the Urban Land Institute. Urban Land Institute is a national organization that's made up of all sorts of different disciplines and professionals from engineering planners, environmental, archaeologist, uh market analysis, our analysts, um just everything you could possibly think of. These professionals actually come in to a different jurisdiction. They spend a couple months doing a study and they wrote a report. Now, if you get lonely some night and want to download this from Oyola County's website, you can. It's about three 400 pages, okay? But I'm going to hit on just some of the highlights. And this is not John Adams or RJWA telling you this. This is not Oyola County telling you this. These are the principles that came out of the urban land institute. This professional report. First of all, they looked at market potential. The first thing they identified was at the time we were the third fastest growing region in the county.

Yes.

Or in excuse me, in the United States. There you go. Showing my age. Okay. Um, we were projected to have a 2.5 growth rate where the rest of the country was at a 1 uh% growth rate. They projected the 100% population growth by midcentury which they missed because we're already there. We're nowhere near midentury and there's a reason for that and I'll get to that. They project that we need about 35,000 homes per year. And for a healthy market, housing market, you need about a 3 to four year inventory. In other words, approvals for about 3 to four years of that inventory. They identified that the current supply was challenged to meet the demand and Oyola County was projected to capture double its historic share. Here's why. And actually, we've already exceeded that. At the time, we were at about 18% of the Central Florida market for housing. Semino County is built out. Orange County is very nearly built out. Lake County had some infrastructure problem called water and sewer. Uh Pulk County had some infrastructure problem which they have now corrected. They had some transportation problems issues but with Pulk Parkway and everything else they fixed that and they actually now Pulk County is growing faster than Oyola County. So our market share has gone up. People keep moving to Florida, keep moving to Central Florida, and we are capturing a higher higher level of market share, which is why we've already exceeded that projected growth rate.

Principles for planning for success. First of all, they identified that staying rural at 1.04 dwelling units was not an option for anyone. Um, by focusing on where you're going to urbanize, you can determine what will remain rural. As a community, you can create a vision. Periods of dynamic growth are frustrated. We've all experienced that. You all experienced that every third Tuesday of every month. Okay? We've experienced it. We live here, too. Okay? Uh good planning minimizes the problems and knowledge of the end product helps. What's the singest greatest obstacle to growth management? We all know the answer to this transportation. They looked at the transportation network. They had uh and they identified that it is absolutely um in influencing the lifestyle, the commerce. You need to have adequate an uh transportation systems. They identified that you needed to upgrade the existing road network, planning for future roadways, integration of transit. We're well behind on integration of transit but that is a big element especially to these mixeduse districts. We depend on sunrail and links. We need to start we collectively St. Cloud Cassumi Oyola County we need to start integrating more transit opportunities. Finally, pathways, bikeways, and trails

are also a big part of the design elements for an urban environment. They also looked at additional infrastructure, utilities, municipal services, education, schools, housing, parks, and recreation programs, and incentives. I told you it was a very comprehensive report. That's what those three 400 pages all fill out. They looked at all those and analyzed all those issues. Excuse me. Again, these were the recommendations from the Urban Land Institute. Have a private sector mindset because that means you're dealing with a private sector. They've got a mindset where they need to uh react instead of or or u be proactive instead of reactive. They need to plan for their growth. They need to plan for their business models. You as a jurisdiction should be doing the same thing. Responding to trends. We all see different market trends occasionally. um define goals but have flexible options. You're going to hear flexibility almost as much as you're going to hear mass transit tonight. Okay? You need to have flexible options. We as planners can project. We can but who knows if we're right. Well, we know we're right about growth and we know we're right about the state law requires the accommodation of that growth through the land use policies, but you need to remain flexible to be able to react to meet market demands.

Partnering in good times and bad. Uh, think regionally, but act locally. When you have a project in front of you for review, bless you. You have to see how it fits into the big picture. Just don't look at the edges of the paper and stop your review. You need and your staff does this. They need to see how it fits into the big picture, the regional picture. You as a city, a municipality, one of only two, and the county's uh urban growth boundary, need to see how you fit in and your policies fit in to that regional growth management strategy of Oyola County. Create a sense of place. It was a tourist in um driven economy at the time. Still is pretty much open for business attitude. Again, these are all recommendations from those professionals, the Urban Land Institute. Have a vision and stick to it. That's what's called a comprehensive plan and comprehensive plan policy. Enforce it. Stick to it. Plan to make it happen. Develop in a proactive manner. Again, be proactive, not reactive. If you're reactive, you're always going to be seven years behind on your roadways. Your schools are always going to be filled before they can build a new one. You have to be proactive. You have to plan for the future. Stay the course with flexibility. When you when a jurisdiction adopts a comprehensive plan and a land development code, the private sector has a right of reliance on that. We as professional planners can use those policies and those ordinance and

actually design something in compliance with it. Yes, there'll be a little adjustment to flexibility, but we won't compromise those adopted policies and ordinance. No overnight success stories. We're all experiencing that. Okay. And there aren't any overnight success stories. I just mentioned it takes a jurisdiction seven years to build a road. Why? Well, they got to bid it. They got to take it out the prof. They got to It's a nightmare. The private sector can build roads a lot quicker. Okay. But the private sector ain't going to build them until they need them for their own project. And that's just business. Uh make yes easy for the right proposal. be willing to say no to the wrong proposal. But here's the key. You need to know the difference between the right proposal and the wrong proposal. You need to understand the difference. Okay. There's some guiding principles. I'll go over these quickly. Celebrate the environment. I mentioned the Urban Land Institute of Environmental Scientists. And we have wonderful natural resources here in Central Florida. East Lake, West Lake Toho, we've got Alligator Lake, the alligator chain. We've got wonderful uh natural resources that we have to take advantage of and protect. Uh economic opportunity again, getting away from that tourist driven economy. There's been some attempts at that. Oyola County with Neo City, you all are St. Cloud is working on some uh industrial areas and creating some economic opportunities. So that's evolving.

Promote opportunities for public interaction. Why is that important? It's hugely important because it's not just us as professionals and you as professional regulators need to understand this. The public needs to understand it. Now, unfortunately, this is a perfect opportunity for public interaction, and there's some folks here. Welcome. But these are the type of opportunities, not just a public hearing when it's a project in somebody's backyard, right?

Okay? Because you know what that's going to be, not in my backyard. Build it somewhere else. These are the opportunities. is we can do it with workshops. Staff can do it with workshops. Your city council can do it. You all planning commissioners can do it. And I appreciate this opportunity that I have here tonight to do this. But public interaction is very important because if you don't get them to understand the one thing, remember the one thing I told you to remember? If we kept doing what we were doing, their taxes are going up. allow flexibility for the long term. We we deal in 20-year planning periods, some cases even more. The northeast sector uh that the up by Sunbridge, it's got a 2040 plan, a 2060 plan, a 2080 plan. You need to allow some of that flexibility. Risk greatness. That was a challenge from the Urban Land Institute. Now, in June of 2006, well, first of all, let me stop right there. That gives you some of the history of why the county was transmitting their earbased amendment in 2006. Does anybody have any questions on the reason why they got to this point? Nope. Okay, I'll keep going then. There was a department of community affairs secretary. Now it's the department of economic opportunity. We used to refer it to the central planning agency sort of like the communist government up in Tallahassee. But the DCA had a secretary Thaddius Cohen. He saw their comprehensive plan and said,

"Whoa, that's too much density." Well, there was an election, a new governor, a new secretary. Tom Pelum, who actually was the author of concurrency. I don't know how many of you are familiar with concurrency, but he had 180 degree different theory. Prove you can build all that density because you need it. Oyola County. Well, that took about a few years to get through that review process. The county finally uh adopted their earbased amendment and it was the first ever in the state of Florida where there was an adopted urban growth boundary geographically defined. There was urban service areas and other jurisdictions, but this was the first urban growth boundary in the state of Florida. Well, now what? Now, what's the county do? Well, now they came up with a mixeduse district. Remember that one color with multiple residential uses, and it's evolved even more than that, and I'll get into that in a minute. They have to adopt conceptual master plans for these mixed use areas. In 2010, they adopted the East, South, and the Northeast District, which has now been converted to Sunbridge. And just a couple years ago, they adopted the alligator chain of lakes mixeduse district conceptual master plan. They had to create a whole new land development code to implement the urban design standards. Remember that 2003 comp plan? Well, here's what the county's comprehensive plan looks like today. whole lot less colors. And guess what?

Just like the Urban Land Institute recommended, 38% of the county is in the urban growth boundary and 62% is preserved in rural character. Unfortunately, the folks that show up here

don't live in the rural character area. They live in the urban growth boundary, which is where the development is occurring. Okay. But 62% of this county has been preserved by creating this urban growth boundary. And the blue areas, by the way, are the mixed use districts. Now, remember when I said we had 1.04 dwelling units per acre and 100,000 units roughly, and we're doubling the population, need 100,000 more units. It was determined by the urban land institute study that you needed to achieve a density a minimum density of three dwelling units per acre for the tax base to cover the infrastructure. Well, if you do the simple math, you got 100, you're building another 100, you got one 12 unit per acre, you need to get the three. All this stuff new has to be built at five. So it a averages out at three. That's simple math. Which is why the county has policies to go from a minimum three to eight in their low um density residential category. They have other higher, medium, and high density residential character categories that have higher densities. The mixed use district, it's a minimum of five and it goes up to 25 dwelling units per acre. again allowing for that flexibility but achieving that ultimate goal of three dwelling units per acre on an overall basis. I want you to notice all that red that was used to strip along 192. It's all gone. The other thing the mixed use districts did and the urban design standards did was eliminated the strip commercial.

That's based on the California model. Everybody get in your car and go buy a gallon of milk. Everybody get in your car and go to a recreational park somewhere. Everybody go to get in your car and go grocery shopping. These centers were created and sized and I'll get into that in a little bit here to accommodate the population base around them to shorten trips to promote walkability and mass transit. But the county totally eliminated strip commercial and put everything in centers, urban centers, community centers, employment centers, uh, neighborhood centers, and I'll get into a little bit of detail of that later on. This was the East Lake Toho conceptual master plan they adopted. Now those projects up on the north are Kendrick and Tahokua. The one in the center is Edgewater. The one at the southeast is Fontana. Between Fontana and the Whley Plat property, which is south of CMI Park Road, uh is Belloterra. And they were all part uh Edgewater Toka and Kindred were all five of those six DRI that were submitted back in '04. The South Toho, this is all Green Island turnpike over on the east. Uh the eastern most is CMI Park Road. It's the Bronson Ranch south of uh Westlake and the Kelly Ranch goes almost out to Pleasant Hill Road. Uh this was the Northeast District which is now Sunbridge

and this was the most recently adopted Alligator Chain of Lakes conceptual master plan. goes from Canoe Creek Road on the west all the way over to 192. And that's Harmony on the other side of 192. That's how much area these cover. And remember that sticker shock, 26,000 units, 4 million square ft of commercial. This is what was approved with East, South, the Northeast District, and then most recently the Alligator Chain of Lakes. That totals 116,564 dwelling units, 40 million square ft of non-residential support. That's based on the land use. That's not all zoned and entitled yet through zoning, but that is the growth management strategy that is needed to accommodate our projected growth. That's 26,000 turned into 116,000. 4 million turned into 40 million because that is really what's needed after analysis has been done by all the professionals. Uh 2010 This is what it looked like when it was first adopted and this is what it looks like today. Now, this cuts out to Hokqua and Kindred up on the north, but this is Edgewater, Edgewater West, uh, Belloterra, Fontana at the southeast, and then the Whley Plat. These are properties that have actually been entitled. And then some of the aerial uh photograph that you see in between. This is a little outdated because some of those properties actually smaller

properties have actually come in as well. Finally, I'm getting into the mixeduse district. The policies. Are there any questions? How am I doing on time? Have I boring everybody up? I have a quick question. And on the last map, what are the the light green areas uh that we see here? Oh, they're wetlands. Okay, that's just just

uh there I I will get in more detail the edgewater concept plan a little bit later in the presentation and it'll actually show all the different place types. Okay, I promise I'll get to that finally. Okay, what's the principles behind the mixeduse district? Now this is language again not from John Adams, not from RJ Whitten or RJWA, not from the Urban Land Institute. This is language adopted from your code. The standards are intended to create functional mixeduse communities, pedestrian, transit oriented centers and commerce. And the whole idea is to create walkable communities. One of the major principles, community scale principles. Neighborhoods are the centers. They're compact, pedestrianoriented, transit accessible. Whether transit works or not today, we need to maintain the opportunity to implement transit in the future. to reduce the over reliance on the automobile centers have a mix of uses the an urban form to accommodate commercial office industrial institutional development and then there's special districts as well that accommodate and I'll get some detail on give you some detail on that in a little bit the idea though is to create these centers to create the life necessities of the residents so they don't have to get out on the turnpike and drive four miles or get out on 192 and drive three miles. That's the whole intent to create these centers sized

to accommodate the neighborhoods they're located in. Now, when we get into um and again, this talks about walkable transit allowing independence on those that cannot or choose not to drive. Now, when we get into actual design details, when I say urban form, I'm going to show you some pictures of urban form, but generally it's buildings up front by the road, a pedestrian character in front of these buildings, and the parking in the back. There's minimum stories, there's fence stra um windows and doors, certain percentages, there's build two lines that you have to deal with and that is a whole other workshop. Okay, unless you want to sit here for another three hours, I could talk about it. Anyway, some of the other uh policies, interconnected roadway networks, again, getting away from that California model where you get in your car, you drive out to an arterial road where everybody else is like I4 and 192. If you create a network of streets, and I'm going to show you some examples of that when we did in Edgewater, you give people other opportunities. Some St. Cloud, you've got a gritted street network here. When 192 gets crowded, I get on 10th Street or 13th Street or whatever it is. I guess it's 10th

10th.

Okay. Now, I got a stop signs to deal with and a lower speed limit, but guess what? I'm not sitting waiting through three traffic lights. Okay, that's the other opportunities that a grid network creates. Different housing types, different price levels. One of the other ideas here is for to get people to adopt that community spirit. You should be able to buy your first house. Whether you're renting an apartment or buying a starter home when you need a bigger home and you have kids, you buy that same home in the same neighborhood in the same community. when they all graduate college and go live other places, although some of them do come back uh in my experience. But you can downsize when you're in retirement. You want to live in a town home, don't want the maintenance, don't want to cut grass. It can all be in the same community. And it accommodates a variety of socio socioeconomic opportunities and you can remain if you choose in the same community for your lifetime. That is the opportunities that these mixeduse districts can create if implemented properly. Here's transit again. Imagine that. Civic park public space is just as important as commercial activities. Okay. When my kids were young, they needed a playground to go play with in and they didn't want to put them in a car and go drive them to a regional park. When I grew up in a small town,

I'd get on my bike and go down to the ball fields down by the woods and we'd play in the woods. There was a community park there. There was recreation opportunities in our neighborhood. That's just as important as me having to go to get a gallon of milk or go grocery shopping or my wife go grocery shopping. Okay. A range of those different areas. Building block and scale principles. Now, there's two things you have to understand. Landscaping is a physical definition of the streets and your public spaces. The newer roads that are being built in OciOla County have a requirement for street trees. Okay, take a look at Neptune Road that was just built from CMart and Settlement. There's all kind of trees there. There will be street trees on the segment currently under construction. You all have that ordinance?

Yes. Yeah. Well, you all have that ordinance, too. Okay. And that's important to provide that pedestrian environment to encourage people to get out of their car and go walk. um pedestrian spatial form of the public realm, but you do have to adequately accommodate the automobile. People aren't going to get out of their cars 100% of the time. Design streets and buildings for a safe pedestrian environment. Those street trees also create not just the shade on the sidewalk, but it's safer to separate the cars from the people. Last time I was Tallahassee, I almost got run over because I stepped off the curb and I was just like, whoa. Okay. But, you know, the trees actually create that separation. Uh, visual scale is important for the different centers. Civic buildings and public gathering spaces are just as important. You need grocery stores, drugstores, uh nail salons, tattoo parlors,

car washes, but you need churches just as as much.

Okay, you need all those things to create that 100% community feeling. Civic spaces are distinctive and appropriate to where they're located. Concept plans Your code requires the implementation of a conceptual master plan by the approval of two different applications. The first is a concept plan and the second is a site development plan which you don't have but your site development plan is called engineering plans. Okay. Notice there is nothing in there about a preliminary subdivision plan. It's not part of your code. But we do have to go through that process both in the county and in the city. And there's a reason why, and I'll explain it to you after I get through this section. The build out of lands, which is what's adopted on that conceptual master plan, is predictable, but it also needs to be flexible. And I'll give you some um explanation of why that is and how it's been implemented. Uses should be allowed to change over time. You see it all the time on 192 right out here. It's a bike shop. It's an ice cream shop. It's a hairdresser uses change that maintains that sustainability. Okay? But you always have to keep in mind those buildout targets. A concept plan um may vary in a multimodal transportation

district up to 25% of what's adopted. So they're encouraging that multimodal through adopted ordinance. There's a couple other things you need to do to get that 25% credit, but you have to always maintain the big picture. Remember going back to the have a vision and stick to it with flexibility, but understanding that big picture. any adjustments and changes you make, you have to get ultimately to where you need to be to accommodate your population growth. Um, employment center, community centers, uh, neighborhood centers, urban centers, rail stations, don't have any anymore. You used to have one right here, right across the street. transit. Again, planning for that opportunity. Don't compromise that opportunity because eventually it will be something that's marketable and desired. Uh project uh typically walking principles contained in these standards and that gets into some of the design details again where you want those pedestrian access up by the road. You want the parking in the back. You want to separate that pedestrian environment from the vehicular environment and that'll be your next workshop or so you so choose if you choose. Uh finally it's it's organized your code is organized into a public realm space then there's a private realm space and the private governs the private space as long as it meets those design standards and you regulate the public space. uh place type functions all different kind of activities and I'm going to get into the place types right

now the first place type is a neighborhood one neighborhood type one it is predom it is the predominant residential district in all the mixed use areas it is oriented towards detached rather than attached units Now, let me explain to you what that means. Everything in the mixed use that's attached is considered multif family. Don't differentiate between condominiums, apartments, town homes, uh, duplexes. Everything that's attached is multif family. Everything that's detached, patio homes, standard, front load, rear load, single family, they're all detached. So you could have a plan with a 100 units on it and if it's a neighborhood one, a minimum of 51% of those units needs to be detached and 49 of them can be attached. You can build apartments in a neighborhood one if they fit into that overall picture. If there's the community facilities and the center communities, it sounds like my phone. I do have mine off. Yes, I do. Okay. So, if they fit into that big picture, you can build a variety of product. Again, flexibility. Okay. Um connected street system, sidewalks, bicycles, and connection to transit facilities in the future. Uh it's the B background matrix for all the other place types because this is where a majority of the development is going to occur. from those neighborhood ones. The minimums may be adjusted

through a comp plan amend or comp conceptual master plan or DRRI. But here's the basic function of a neighborhood one. A minimum 80% of neighborhood one has to be residential. A minimum of 5% has to be public, park, and civic space. What do you do with the other 15%? whatever you want as long as it fits into the big picture. Residential, you can go 95% residential, you can go 80% residential and 20% public park and civic space. That allows that flexibility. This gives you some idea of some of the product that can be built in a neighborhood one. On the upper left, you see some patio homes on a muse uh park in front of the house instead of a street. You see some more traditional single family. Uh over on the right side you see town homes. They can be built in a neighborhood one. Neighborhood two it focus is on attached rather than detached. Again that 51% attached and remember everything attached is considered multif family in mixeduse district. support transit of course and it's typically located adjacent to commercial because it's typically a higher density. So you want to increase density number one to make these commercial centers viable or more viable but number two it also provides a transition from the higher intensity commercial to the neighborhood ones. wide range of building types. Shows you right here. Town homes, row houses, apartments, lesser extent, patio homes, single family homes, and cottages. Remember,

flexibility. The minimums again can be adjusted, but at a minimum, you need residential at 80% and public civic park space at 5% within a neighborhood, too. gives you an idea of some of the products that can be built in the neighborhood too. And I want you to notice especially the pedestrian atmosphere out in front of these buildings. But then take a look at the public civic park space at the bottom right hand corner. That's all integrated into these neighborhoods. A neighborhood center. Um neighborhood center as the name implies is generally located in the center of a neighborhood. Uh uses are desirable. It allows for commercial and office civic and park space. At a minimum you need 25% of it to be public civic park uses. You don't have to build commercial and office but you can in the future if the market demands it. That's that flexibility, but you don't have to build it. You have to maintain 25% of it as park space and providing a focal point. You defined the neighborhoods sense of place. Elementary schools were targeted for neighborhood centers. Our school board doesn't build elementary schools anymore. Our school board builds K through8s. Now, I've been discussing with school board staff and school board for 20 years to get into a more urban design, but um so far they can't overcome their prototypes and the cost.

Nextuse trails connecting schools and the parks and everything else in the open space system. This gives you an idea of some of the things that can be in a neighborhood center. That upper leftand corner, a big public square. The right hand corner, that's a a community um uh building. It could be a fire station. It could be a police station. It could be a church. It could be a clubhouse for a pool in the back. And then of course you got playgrounds. Creating different opportunities for the needs of the residents. Community center. that's typically a lot larger and um it also accommodates not just commercial office public park space but residential uses in the community center size to create the needs the civic needs of the community. They're preferred locations for middle schools. Well, there are preferred locations for K through eight now. Okay. adjacent to a community center is where it's a preferred location. Um they're generally within a short travel distance from the majority of the community and then minimums as they applied can be modified as long as you maintain the integrity of the place type. You have a minimum 10% of a community center that must be dedicated to residential commercial office and industrial 40% and public park space is another 10%. This gives you an idea of some of the community centers that can be built. Notice that again over on the bottom left there's a big park which is part of the community center and bottom right you notice you know restaurant with some seating out there that creates that safe friendly environment. You see street trees on all of them. Although some of

them out at uh Celebration are palm trees. But anyway, that gives you an idea of that urban form as well with those buildings up front. Finally, an urban center. It is a regional scale. So, actually the trade area extends outside of the mixeduse districts. mix of commercial, office, business, residential, public park and civic spaces. Uh structure of character res resembling traditional downtowns size to allow the building types and spaces they're allowed to contribute to viability and sustainability. That's the key here. the preferred locations for high schools. Again, uses the flexibility is written into your code where you can make adjustments. You have to maintain the integrity of the place type. Minimum 15% residential, 55% commercial, office and industrial, and a minimum of 10% public parks and civic space. This gives you idea of some of the concepts of an urban center. Again, notice the park areas integrated into the downtown environment. Now, is this marketable anywhere today? No, not really. But the code allows for that flexibility where you can actually implement a phase development or an interim development as long as you don't displace that ultimate buildout. of what you want to try what you are uh required by your comp plan to achieve.

There's an open space place type. Okay, now this is very important. Forget everything you know about your PDS and your code and everything else you've reviewed because open space is defined much differently in the mixeduse district. Okay, it does create public civic park space, but look what it includes. Regional community and neighborhood parks, natural resources, wetlands, habitat protection areas, storm water facilities, nature centers, wildlife observation places, uh boardwalks, peers, storm water facilities. Your ponds in the mixeduse district are 100% open space. Not 25% is designed properly. They're 100% open space. That's a place type. Okay. That's straight out of your code. Um connects neighborhoods and centers throughout the mixed use district with a greenway system. uh construct. You can build structures inside open space, but you have to go through a site development plan or in your case, in the city's case, uh engineering improvement plan. But passive recreation does not require any engineering plans. If you are going to preserve wetlands, they have to be preserved in or any lands. They have to be preserved in perpetuity through recordation of conservation easements. A special district. I mentioned a special district. I just touched on it briefly. There are a couple special districts in the mixeduse district. There's likely going to be another special district in between Dehokqua and

Edgewater. Um, to give you an example of what a special district is, there for different uses that don't fit in well in a mixeduse environment. They could be um industrial airports, correction facilities, cemeteries, distribution centers, production facilities, and other major public utilities. Okay. uh to give you a a most a more recent. Now, they could also be um an economic catalyst, which is what this one is that I'm going to uh tell you about. Um you familiar with Marit Trail, east of St. Cloud out off of Old Melbourne Highway. Yep.

Well, Scott Lock that owns a trail outgrew his space on 192. He had to go to another jurisdiction to build another facility. Well, in talking with the county, we found that piece of property for him. Uh, the county accommodated that use and he built his new Amerit trail center out there at Old Melbourne Highway. And it does have some of the mixeduse elements because it has a little retail center and those type of things, but it doesn't have the residential. So, it's not an employment center or an urban center. So, that's a more of a special district, although it didn't need to be because it wasn't in the mixeduse districts. Okay? But it was a special accommodation for that land use to account for that economic catalyst. That's the flexibility that's so important. Um, educational med look like Nona, okay? You got Neores that spent a billion dollars. You got the VA that spent a billion dollars. You got uh medical city up there. Those type of things would fit in these special area districts if they were to be located in the mixed use. A Amazon distribution center would fit there. Okay? And the code allows for adjustments to those public realm standards, those design standards to accommodate some of these uses. I can give you an example. Out on Pointiana Parkway in uh 1792, 1792. Yes. The northwest corner, the old Quaker Oats, Fredo Lelay wanted to move in there with a distribution center. The county made them reszone to an employment center and they couldn't meet the development standards. So, they walked they took the entire Freeda distribution center to another

jurisdiction. That's what happens if you don't remain flexible. Now, that's, you know, real jobs. Okay. I don't know how much people packing potato chips make, but it's real jobs. Okay. What do you expect on your concept plan? Does anybody have any questions about the different place types? Okay. I'm getting close to the end. So, if you're getting tired and want to go watch the All-Star game, I understand. That's a lot.

The concept plan defines a mix of uses, their densities, intensities, the phase or portion of the area that are accomplished by the conceptual master plan. Again, your concept plan is one little piece of that big conceptual master plan puzzle. outlines regional connections, internal connectivity, road network, transit, parks, recreation, major infrastructure, and other civic uh amenities. Site development plans go a step further and actually defines your engineering plans. This defines development a little bit um more in terms of what you're used to seeing, lot sizes, uh product type, that type of thing. The site development plan, greater amount of detail and specificity. Here's the Edgewater approved concept plan. This is what's approved today. I want you to notice that big red area up there at the top. Well, it used to be down in the center or now there's a high school in that tannanish area and that's the Clay Whley Road, CMI Park Road, Turnpike Interchange down there in the center. But new Noly Road, that's the new Turnpike Exchange. Remember when we said that the urban center has got a regional market area outside of the mixeduse district, it made sense to move it where the new turnpike exchange was going. That's why it got moved up there. We made other adjustments and I'll go through in detail here. Designate place types. These are all the requirements of your concept plan. Let me show you how we did that. These are the major roadway networks,

avenues and boulevards through the Edgewater Urban Center. Now, that blue one is Cross Prairie Parkway. The orange one or supposed to be red, but it looks orange to me. Over on the west, that's West Toho or West to Crossberry Parkway. The county hadn't named it yet. Both of those roads connect through Tokopa Kindred, across Prairie Parkway, all the way up to the turnpike at interchange 244. And they both continue down through uh Fontana, Green Island, all the way across the south side of West Toho and um pick up uh West Lake Tohjo. and they are two major framework roadways that connect through all of those areas. But remember, we talked about before interconnectivity. All those little blue roads, they're the local roads interconnecting. So if crossbury Parkway gets crowded and if West to Boulevard gets crowded, you've got other ways to get through the process. Of course, we need to make adjustments for preserved wetlands, storm water management, and quite frankly property lines. Okay, this was a exhibit that we put in uh the concept plan to shows the walkability. Now, if you look at those gray shaded areas from neighborhood centers and the urban center, an overwhelming majority of the yellow residential properties is within a quarter mile walking distance. That mean people are not going to get in their car and drive? No. But it means they have an opportunity to do it. Okay, that's what

this is all about. They have an opportunity to walk to a neighborhood center or the urban center for that matter. Then finally, uh this was a phasing plan that we showed on a preliminary basis and there were trails and parks and everything else in there that I missed pointing out to you. But this was the adopted plan. And the red line kind of gets lost a little bit, but that was the property that we were representing, my owners or the owner's property, Edgewater. So, we didn't own it all. But you notice that urban center, that big red spot in the middle. When it was adopted in 2010, that was where the turnpike exchange was and currently is. In 2028, it's going to be somewhere else. So, the flexibility is built right into this plan. And here's all the adjustments we made. The first one was we moved the urban center to the new turnpike exchange. We had to reconfigure some of the property because of that and displaced some neighborhoods and moved them to other areas. The other thing that was introduced was county school board finally determined that they wanted a high school site and that's what's in the center there. And that high school site's already been graded. I don't know the schedule of it, but that's going to be a new high school. Okay. But the green areas, the blue areas are the open space. There's trails all the way down all the way through everything. The lighter yellow is the neighborhood ones. The darker yellow is the neighborhood twos that are generally located around either schools, neighborhood centers, or commercial areas. This is allowed by your code to make

what's called applicant initiated adjustments as long as you maintain the integrity of that plan. And this is what that shows. Complete tabular data showing the density that was adopted, the portion that my client had available to them, what we're proposing, and this is what was accepted. Are the numbers exactly the same? No. But they maintain the integrity of that overall plan, that big picture, that big regional plan. Now, I want you to notice on there, and it's probably hard to see, but you don't see any single family or excuse me, you don't see any lot sizes. You don't see any product type. You don't see any apartments. You see single family, you see multif family. That's all the concept plan does. Those details come later in the next step. So when you're reviewing a concept plan, you've got a neighborhood one, neighborhood two, neighborhood centers, community centers, urban centers, open space, all measured against that concept adopted conceptual master plan. As far as your residential, you have density shown, number of units, but it's either single family or multif family, attached or detached. The details come in a later plan. Um, this is my last series of slides, I promise. This is the urban center preliminary subdivision plan, which will show you that there's a little bit more detail than what we showed on that concept plan. And this shows you the evolution of these plans under review. Okay. Now, this is what got approved in Oyola County. I'm going to be quite frank with you. This is not what was approved in the

city of St. Cloud. But I'll leave that there. But this is what was approved in OciOla County. There's the urban center. Okay. This exhibit was not even required by code. We put it in there as a courtesy to show how we could actually fit 1.9 million square ft of commercial, 1 million square ft, 1.9 million square feet of office, 1 million square feet of commercial, 1,200 hotel rooms, I think 1,800 residential units, a regional park, civic space, open space. We put this in as a courtesy because nobody believed we could fit it. It fits. But again, implementing those twotory minimums, buildings out towards the roads, parking in the rear, and this shows how it could be an interim development. Our client wanted a commercial power center. We said we can't do it unless we do some implement some of the urban standards. So if you look at those buildings on the north side of Cross Prairie Parkway, that would all be a future pa phase. The bluer shaped buildings would be parking underneath initially with office above. There's hotel in there. The darker gray areas are parking garages. It can be done. It's not marketable today, but it absolutely can be done through the interim development, the phasing of development, as long as you don't approve a plan that compromises the integrity of the ultimate buildout.

That's the purpose behind these mixed use districts and that flexibility. That's the PS. That's the preliminary subdivision plan. That's it. Well, not quite it because all the numbers are applied to it. Okay. But we're not subdividing those commercial lots. So, we're just creating those commercial lots that you saw up here and the roadway network and the major roadway network. And that gives the detail of what happens. Now the next step in the county would have been a site development plan and they would have to further detail those development standards and actually show compliance with the minimum stories, the build two lines, the um uses themselves, square footage, parking. Okay, that's where all those details come in. So you need to understand that the flexibility is actually covered. The jurisdiction whether it's the city or the county is actually protected by the integrity of that plan through your governing process. You approve a concept plan, nobody's building it because they have to go through a preliminary subdivision plan. They have to go through an engineering improvement plan. Okay. Um, same thing with zoning. Nobody's building what you get zoned. They have to go through a preliminary subdivision plan. They have to go through an engineering plan. Your code protects the jurisdiction and the public, quite frankly. Told you I was almost done. It's a lot of information. I know I went through some of it very quickly. I hope you appreciate and understand the history why the county created an urban

growth boundary, why they created these mixed use districts, and I hope you understand the necessity to actually maintain the integrity of those plans. If you go back to that third slide, that 2003 comprehensive plan in OciOla County, just imagine doing the same thing that you were doing since Disney opened and double in that area. No one could afford to live here and pay for all that infrastructure. Okay? And that's what it's all about. That's the bottom line. The reality is you need sustainable development on a learn long-term basis. This implements that sustainability. Do you have any questions,

John? I do. When did um when did the Florida statute is it 163 or whatever? 163. When was that implemented? Actually originally, I believe it was 1976, but in 1981, there was a big uh modification and then another one in ' 83, which actually required a projected growth, population growth, and the actual accommodation of your plans to accommodate that growth.

So, is that state of Florida probably recognized it because of Central Florida or probably South Florida? It recognized because the growth rate in Florida was projected back in the 80s to increase and it sure has. Okay. And it also was based on some history. I mentioned California a couple times. I had a couple kids that lived out there. The one just moved back thankfully. California, you get in your car and you go drive everywhere except you get in your car and you're sitting in a parking lot on a six-lane divided highway

because everybody else is doing the same thing. Well, that can happen here, okay? And it was happening here because jurisdictions were being reactive. They wouldn't even think about building a new road until you needed one and then it was 10 years too late. But you said ear early early on that if you don't if you're not proactive, you're reactive, you won't catch up. How do we catch up? Okay, good question.

Implement the plan. Number one, implement your comprehensive plan. You've got a whole host of and unfortunately Ocel County has probably got the highest mobility impact fees in the state of Florida and St. Cloud's not too far behind. But now you have a funding source. Okay, that's the other thing about new growth. By the way, you got a funding source through impact fees, mobility fees, but the biggest funding source you have is you're creating new taxpayers as new people move in. You're increasing your tax base. There's no overnight success stories. It takes a long time. These are 20-year planning periods. Plus, the county has adopted and you have adopted uh St. Cloud has adopted um thoroughfare plans, uh roadway plans, projected u road, all that alligator chain lake conceptual master plan. The county just did a big what they called seats study, southeast area transportation study, and they've actually assigned Edgewater to Green Island to Fontana to all the developers. They've actually signed a prorated amount that they have to contribute towards those roadways. Is that going to happen overnight? No. Will it happen? Absolutely.

Oh, I just don't know how you catch up once you're behind. I don't know how you catch up. and and and just an observation because it was it's very real for because it just happened.

You can't now that everything is so expensive. I mean, a brand new construction, two a mom and a dad and two little ones, they buy one of these new construction, they're at $4,000 a month mortgage with allin, right? and somebody says, "Well, I'm going to go ahead and get something moderate, so I'm going to buy $230,000." They're still at $2,000, maybe a single person. How our our costs are so high now. Where is where are they working? Who is like how do they afford that?

I absolutely understand those issues. Okay. Um I've got five kids. They're dealing with it. Okay. And I've had, you know, I I I've had to deal with those issues in my younger career as well. Um, first of all, a lot of those things are things that planners can't fix. We can plan for the future. We can plan to accommodate growth. We can plan for all the infrastructure that's needed to implement those plans. But we can't control interest rates.

Well, it's not only just interest rates. It's the the cost of, you know, whatever happened with COVID and everything went so high. Everything's inflated. It's also supply and demand. Supply and demand. Well, supply and demand, but it's where are they working? Like, how are you making that enough money for everybody to be able to do that? That's where the part that you're talking about having the the um uh commercial like where are they working? Where are the jobs? Absolutely. And that's why these plans have incorporated the opportunity opportunity.

Well, the private sector can't dictate a market. Okay. Ocola County has been working on Neo City for quite some time.

Okay. Now, if Ocola County had New Morris Hospital come in and spend a billion dollars, they'd build Lake Nona in Neo City. But if you take a look at the infrastructure at Neo City, which is US Highway 192 and the Turnpike, only two lanes, and you take a look at the 417 in Neo City, the infrastructure is more available for them to expand, which is why now you got Medical City up there, you got Neores, you got um Veterans Hospital, uh you got the big cancer center up there. Okay,

those infrastructure needs accommodate those type of development. Now, I know that that the county and the city both are looking at creating a um should I say any of this? I guess I can um industrial opportunity. No. Okay. They're looking at different opportunities. How's that? Well, I'll change the subject then and ask you about the water issue, too. You mentioned that. That's like a big Can I ask a question before you ask about water? Oh, because it's it's related to what we were just talking about. So,

um I think the idea of mixed use and you know, neighborhood centers, urban centers is great in concept. I mean, what I think Seaside was one of the first uh places to implement it and then we have Baldwin Park and Celebration and and things of that sort. Now, when we were looking at the map from I think it was from 2010 and it was the uh future land use for east of Lake Tohjo, right? Yes.

Now, that's changed quite a bit to what we see now, but I'm curious, and this is somewhat of a rhetorical question, but I'm curious of your opinion. So, I've probably mentioned this in every planning commission meeting for the last six or eight months, maybe longer. Um, but when you look at that particular area and you look at the number of housing units, the number of dwelling units, the number of the amount of commercial space planned, right? When you look at the map from 2010, you only see one way to get into that area from the rest of St. Cloud. Right now, I know that we're pl, you know, there's a plan to bring Clay Whley down and, you know, I noticed in the new plan there's a couple different roads, maybe Frier's Cove or or something, but we we've been talking about the grid and how the grid makes it easier to get around and and you know, transportation. But why when looking at this area, is there not more connectivity across the turnpike and across that area? I mean because it's it's very isolating for that area to be, you know, taken away from the rest of the city uh with that turnpike really just sort of acting as a boundary.

Well, the turnpike does as act as a physical boundary because there's all sorts of regulations on how often you can cross it and then there's a regulation. Well, not a regulation, but certainly a cost involved. Okay, you're spending $200 million to build a bridge over the turnpike. That's a 300 foot rideaway. Plus, you have to get your abatements and everything else. It It's a extraordinarily expensive cost. It cannot be borne by any independent individual developer. Can the county do it? Can St. Cloud do it? Where you going to get the money? Okay. But the roadway network on all of those plans was designed to accommodate all of those trips. Okay, remember there's two from Dehokua down all the way around the south end of West two framework roads

across Prairie Parkway. And now Clay Whley Road is not going to be closed off. It's still going to be crossing the turnpike. you won't be able to access the turnpike there. But even the turnpike authority finally got around to identifying they needed to fix that big T intersection at Canoe Creek Road or CM Park Road because that's what backs up all the traffic. People don't have enough movement to flow through there. So all that was studied, looked at, and that's why they came up with this new turnpike interchange. F uh Friars Cove Road has always been planned to maintain its crossing. There'll be uh further ones down south in Green Island and ultimately you got Southport Expressway which is not quite as far away as some people may remember it to be. Okay. And the reason is development creates the need for those expressway authorities to identify the need for new infrastructure. Okay. Now, should there be a local road connection over the turnpike? What a wonderful world that would be. Nobody could afford it.

Yeah. Okay. I mean, if there was a local road connection every quarter mile, that would be a wonderful thing. But the development you already have on the east side doesn't accommodate it either. So what do you connect to? You connect to the new Noli roads. You connect to the CM Park roads. You connect to the opportunities that you have. So let me summarizing what you because I know Phil's your biggest concern is Edgewater and every all that development over there right now. You feel it's only Clay Wley Road is the way they can get in and out. Right. Right now. That that is the only way. That is the only way. Yes.

And you're saying that in a certain amount of time by the time that all of that that was approved to be built in there, those roads will be finished, those roads will be there in time for that because they're working on those roads now. Is that what you're saying? To answer that question that concern. Yes. Working on funding. Well, the turnpike new exchange will be done in 2028. Okay. Once that's done, the urban center in Edgewater is going to be pretty close to developing. Now, if you think about that, again, remember these new centers. They won't be coming across this.

They won't have to come across because they have those opportunities on the west side. So, there's going to be a Home Depot and a public to have no idea what there's going to be. I know what there should be. There should be 1.9 million square feet of office and there should be a million square feet of commercial but I don't have a clue what's going to be there. Okay,

he's going to keep saying that at every meeting and I I understand it, believe me. But the opportunity only exists where it can be accommodated both both feasibly, financially, and the more commercial that's built over on the west side of the turnpike, the less trips have to come in to St. Cloud. I'm telling you, the person that builds the first storage unit over there is going to be a millionaire. That's what I should car wash. What were you going to ask about? I do understand your concern though.

Yeah, I mean it's just it's just a public safety concern that I've had ever since I've seen Edgewater. I've seen the plans for it. Um, and I just I just it scares me that that much development has already occurred. And um, you know, I'm just have a lot of concerns that the the roads won't be built in time to really support that area. I'm sure they will eventually be built, but you say it in such a nice way. I'm so worried about the public safety. I'm worried about road rage. Get out of my way. I want to ask about the water. Yes.

Okay. So, you you mentioned it, but I and I don't really know how to formulate it, but I do hear every now and then good old-timers are always talking about that whatever's happening here is not we're not addressing the water issue and South is charging us for the water or whatever. Can Okay, you've heard that. Help me help me comprehend what they're about. First of all, I am not a civil engineer.

Okay. So I will tell you what the little I know about it. I will tell you what my opinion is. Okay. South Florida has a water problem. South Florida because of salt infiltration and everything else. Okay. We've got more water in Oyola County than anybody in the state. We've got plenty of water, but we're in part of the South Florida Water Management District

because our we're the headwaters of the Everglades. So, all their rules apply to our developers around here. Okay. Water quality is absolutely a big issue, but it's not a problem in OciOla County. It's a problem in South Florida. Now, do we just ignore it? Absolutely not. We can't. Number one, because we're regulated by the South Florida Water Management District and their rules, policies and their permitting requirements, but number two, it's, you know, not the right thing to do. Just ignore half the state. Okay? But I think some of the reports and some of the uh let's just say opinions about water are a bit overstated. when you look and dig into the real details.

So, you don't think it would necessarily be a tax impact or a cost impact to residents here that Well, I don't sit on the South Florida Water Management Board either. Do they have the taxing authority? Of course, they do. They could. Yes. Okay. But, um, you know, that that's things that are out of our control. Okay. Out of everybody's control, really. Okay. I have one last one unless somebody else wants to go before me. H I I loved your statement about the um UGB is 38% and rural is 62%.

Yes. and comprehensive land plan that we have between the county and can you put that into like an elevator quick elevator statement so that whenever people make a statement that our city or our county is not worried about us that we can be those good PR people in the community to say something. Um I could get in trouble with that but

the reality is simply this. Okay. Especially a lot a lot of the longtime residents are not used to an urban a a development that's urbanizing. Okay, I showed you why it had to urbanize because nobody could afford it if it didn't. The county protected 62% of this county in a rural area. But guess what? It's not in their backyards. It's in out in the rural area. Their backyards, they're part of the urban growth boundary. And quite frankly, it's both the city of St. cloud and CMI that need to implement that urban growth strategy so they don't compromise that density because the compromise of the density and the increase in density in the urban growth boundary leave Oyola County just one option extend the urban growth boundary and eat up some more of that 62% rural area what else are they going to do they need the units they can't stop people from moving here. We can't do that.

So, it would be good for us to also keep those percentages in our on our lips because that should really help. And is that and maybe this would be for to the whole up in arms when they have to get annexed into the city and our taxes will go there. I mean, it's the same thing as to say it's it's one for all and all for one. you live in community and if we don't do that, we're not able to have the opportunity to fix the things that we need to fix. Would you say that's interesting?

Yes, but there's a few other reasons why people resist annexation. It's not just the cost. the other taxes you're pay now paying a city millage tax, but theoretically you've got a higher rate at emergency services, fire department, so the home insurance goes down and a lot of times that could be a wash for people as far as financially. Okay, that's what it used to be with city of CM four and five years ago. It was just a wash because the rates that they saved in insurance paid for the extra millillage. But St. Cloud, other than the mixeduse district, which you were bound to adopt the county's ordinance and policies by the JPA, you quite frankly still have a suburban ordinance. In Ocola County, low density residential is a minimum of three up to eight dwelling units per acre. Remember at 1.04 you had to get to three. Everybody everybody else has to get you at five just to average out. You're zero to four with your current zoning categories for uh single family residential. The smallest lot size in a straight zoning district is 62 and a2 ft. We as planners can't barely achieve three dwelling units per acre. It would be if you're asking it would be my recommendation that you take a look at your entire code. The city take a look at it entire code and you can again define areas you want to preserve for whatever. Okay. But you need to try to urbanize to avoid that disincentive. I've got clients that look at it like a taking. Wait a minute. I got three to

eight dwelling units in OciOla County with my LDR. I go to the city, get LDR, I got up to four, and you're telling me I can only fit three maybe. Well, that's the reality of the code. The other thing I will say is the county, remember the code requires a concept plan and a site development plan or in your case an engineering improvement plan. We've got that interim step of a preliminary subdivision plan which shows a lot more detail. Gives you an idea of actually what some of the product's going to be. Okay. Is that a necessary process? Sure it is. For the public, for you know those that regulate this, but your preliminary subdivision plan requirements, they're 70% engineering plans. you make any adjustments through the public hearing process, now you're paying an engineer the cost to revise engineered plans. The county doesn't have those engineering requirements. It's it's as simple as you're going to have water lines, you're going to have sewer lines. What do you care if they're six inch lines or 4 inch lines? Your construction plans will take care of that. Why do you need to show that on a preliminary subdivision plan? You're going to have them. You're required to have them. Okay, if you made your process a little bit more flexible and development friendly public sector mindset from the urban growth boundary, you would find a I think a lot less resistance with u annexation at least from my clients. Okay. I

I'm just being honest. No, you need to be because we have to understand what what we say or look at at least to, you know, give input. So, I'm probably getting dirty looks from your staff because that's more work for them now to change the rest of your land development code. But again, your your land development code really hasn't changed except for the mixeduse districts. But you've got a lot of property in your joint planning area in your JPA that's not part of the mixeduse districts. So you're applying a suburban code and design standards to an urban growth. And I think that's where I hear it's that alligator lake and that those folks are going what the

right. Yeah. And didn't we have engineers look at our streets before we did our streets? You had transportation engineers that were all part of the comprehensive plan process, the adoption, and they review it all the time, minimum every seven years. The comprehensive plan for your transportation network. Yes. Engineers aren't always correct. Do you think that uh I'm a planner, not an engineer. the area of Sunbridge

uh because I feel like it was sort of the first area to really have where they had this idea of mixed use and uh originally from my understanding it was supposed to be kind of an employment center right based on the earlier Ocola County comprehensive master plan. Um but I feel like it's not really becoming that right it's it's more it's becoming a lot more residential. Uh maybe they're trying to implement some of the mixed use, but um I mean what's your opinion on that area? Do you think it's going to be successful or do you think it's going to be something that will be like a a test for future areas that are going to be mixed use?

Well, first of all, they have Tavistock money behind them. Secondly, they're couple miles away from New York City. They're going to be successful. Okay. They will be marketable if they can build the infrastructure to support those type of uses and they are that infrastructure is planned. Yes. Now I can tell you my knowledge of the fact the northeast district was a mixeduse area. Northeast district was only 5,000 acres in the urban growth boundary. The rest of it was in the rural area originally. and the developer, the property owner came in and they got it expanded to 19,000 acres in the urban growth boundary, which is not a bad thing, okay? Because the mixed use district had all the proper planning for the infrastructure to implement those uses. They've, you know, got some environmental constraints, but subsequent to that, they are no longer a mixeduse district. They're a sector plan now. there there's some other plan but yes they implement a lot of the same type of design standards of a mixeduse district okay I ab I don't have any firsthand knowledge because we're not involved in that but I can tell you from the perspective of its proximity to the airport to Neo city

medical city yeah Neo city um I can tell you that yes they will be successful. I'm just curious if they're going to be successful in the sense of sustainability, you know, having being able to integrate uh employment centers and there's a very big plan for that. There's a very big plan for everything from a not riverfront lakefront uh big commercial area. Huge. I mean, at least that's still what they're telling everybody when they tour them at Dell Web. Well, because as you know, I mean, we need jobs around here, right? We need Absolutely.

job growth and a lot of that ties into the economic development department and what they're doing to attract businesses and you know, that sort of thing. But that's it's just a huge concern that there's too many people, too much residential, and we just were not able to grow our our u jobs. But that's a tough one though, Phil, because like big restaurants What is it that like Darden or whatever? They won't even open a restaurant somewhere unless they know they can do what 5,000 covers in a day. So, it's kind of you gota it's chicken and egg. You got to have the residents there before the good company big companies might come in, right?

I just you know through the years and dealing with our commercial clients. You're you're absolutely right. Um it's sort of a double-edged sword. Chicken and egg. Without the rooftops, you don't have commercial. Because commercial, you may be approved. It may be designed. You may be able to build it, but it can't get financed. And if you don't finance it, it's not going to get built. Okay.

Now, how many rooftops do you need to make those things feasible? Uh I am not a market analyst but I can tell you that those adopted conceptual master plans were sized those centers were sized that square footage was a size was sized to accommodate that growth. Okay. They weren't oversized and they weren't undersized which is why it's so important to maintain that integrity of the plan even on an interim basis. I can also tell you that you know you mentioned Darden I remember this is a few years ago um 7-Eleven they wouldn't open up unless there was 3,000 rooftops in their market area. Well, once there was 3,000, they or somebody else would open up, then you have to wait for another 3,000 for a second one to come in. I mean, it's it's their business plan.

I was a child of the 70s here in St. Cloud, and we couldn't get McDonald's to come here, no matter how many letters I wrote to them. Okay. I I can appreciate that. Yes. Yeah. We weren't we weren't even a blink to anybody for a long time. And now we are. So,

well, you were a whole lot more than a uh convolescent area for Civil War veterans. Okay. And you're still here. So, you have a sustainable community, but you need to evolve to maintain that sustainability. Quite frankly, the urban center resembles a traditional downtown. You got a community center out there. Okay? You've got one building that's four stories and that's the old hotel that's being renovated. Okay? You've got one story. An urban center is four, five, you know, six story residential on top. I'm not talking about Manhattan. Okay.

No, but like College Park's done a really great job. It's like six or seven stories, I think. Pardon? We we do have one senior living facility that's Oh, down stories. But I think our I you did a really great job years ago. I think I said in one of your presentations where you talked about how I kept thinking this always rings true of the Home Depot. Like we wouldn't have so much traffic on 192 and going through town if there was something out there because everybody from Harmony and this side of town has to go across town. So there, you know, those sort of things, but and I know that's coming and I know the staff works hard on bringing them trying to bring what they can here and analyzes. So I think Everybody's

grocery stores, drugstores, you know, the essentials, but don't forget about churches, too. I mean, you know, they're essential. Churches are very interesting. So, there's a there's a corner spot in What would that be? I'm sorry you brought it up. Sorry, everybody. But this they said no to a church. This is an area that could that could put anything there. Multif family, blah blah, like a laundry list of things, but they won't let a church go in. What does a church have to do with certain like restrictions? It's in CM. I'm sorry, you might not know, but it's in semi- downtown. It wasn't one of our projects closed back because of traffic. Churches traditionally, depending on the size, have a lot of traffic or parking, right? Well, could be not big enough, but

only on Sundays, right? Sorry. Typical. It depends. Daycare. We do have some that do food distribution and that sort of thing and that causes a lot of traffic issues. But I think they fixed that. They have to park now. The reason why it was denied, they probably hired the wrong planning firm to Oh, touche. Touche. I'm sure that's what it was. You did great, John. Thank you very much. Thank you. We appreciate it.

Thank you. I I appreciate that. But guys, I've lived this. I've spent a lot of my career developing this. I've listened to the experts. Are the experts always right? Probably not. But it's a whole lot better than what we were doing and it's a whole lot better than what the results could be. And lights are flickering. Does that mean that wrap it up? Wow. Light game's closing. And I would be happy to come back. Now, there's a a whole host of other design criteria that's part of the mixed use. So, we need to vote on whether he out again for the design criteria. Well, thank you. Okay. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you, John. Um so there we will um work on part two. We'll get with the city manager and um see what our contract will allow.

And um I just wanted to point out um well of first of all, thanks to uh John Adams and his team for preparing this presentation and bringing it to you guys. Um but at next month's meeting, you'll be happy to know that we are bringing forward the future land use element that incorporates um everything that was talked about tonight. Our future land use element right now along with our east of Lake Tohjo and south of Lake Tohjo elements already exist in our comprehensive plan but we are taking uh many of the policies that that have the same effect and we're spreading it across the city to have um along with the transportation element that you'll you're you've already already seen. Yes, already seen. Um, so we are working on on updating our policy so that we don't have the old 2002 2003 policies. We're bringing that forward. We hope you'll support it. Um, it is it is a plan for the next 20 years. It's it's the um comprehensive plan 2045. And so this is our opportunity to make some of those changes that that are necessary to get that connectivity and and bring in the right uses in the right locations. So just want to uh let you guys know that that is coming because it is a hefty document and so we'll we'll try to get it out a little earlier if possible so that you have a little bit yeah have more time to review it.

Okay. Did you say at one of your resations once there was going to be like we'll have a 100,000 people in St. Cloud in 2040? Oh, if uh oh, don't quote me on this, but it's been a while since I've done that presentation, but if we did not expand our city limits at all, what we currently have landwise, we would still gain another additional 100,000 residents in the next uh decade or so. Thanks for arranging this. It was really very helpful. Thanks. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

All right. Anybody else have any comments, questions? No, I've got brain over. Make a move that we I'd like to move that we adjourn. All right. Second. All right. All in favor of adjournment. I see you on next month. 19th. Next planning commission is the 19th. Next meeting.