Planning Board - Regular Meeting

Good. The Somerville Planning Board meeting for Wednesday, October 8th, will please come to order. Adequate notice of this meeting is required by the Open Public Meeting Act has been provided. A copy of the notice specifying the date, time, and location was one posted on the bulletin board outside of Burough Hall. Two mailed facts or emailed to the Courier News, and three given to the clerk administrator. This meeting is a judicial proceeding. Any questions or comments must be limited to the issues the board may legally consider in reaching a decision and the decorum appropriate to a judicial hearing must be maintained at all times. Roll call. Andrea Dear here. Chris Addex here. Larry Cleveland here. Jason Kroska here. Chairperson Warner here. Please stand for the pledge.

To the flag of the United States of America to the standy andice for all. All right. I need a motion for approval for minutes from September 24th. So moved. Second. Chris Addex. Yes. Larry Cleveland. Yes. Jason Kraka. Yes. Chairperson Warner. Yes.

All right. We have no resolutions, no hearings, so we'll go right into discussion items. Um, how many were able to I know Larry, I saw you. Um, I know Jason was here. I was here to either attend and or get to watch the auto group. You got it. I got it, but I didn't see it all. That's fine. Um, we're not going to go I don't want to go into too much detail, but I do want to stress that this is exactly what we were looking for um on information and insight as to of information that we're going to need as we move into deeper dive of the master plan,

redevelopment plans, as well as zoning. Um, he touched on some things that I don't know about any of you, but I was some of it was very shocking.

Yeah. Um, other was, wow, we're really going to have to start thinking outside of the box type thinking. And you know, I really I couldn't help when I left here on Monday night to go home and remembering some of those initial conversations when I um first came on the planning board with Bernie and some and some crew me crew in that group that about what they went through when they were building that vision for where we are now. And I feel like we're kind of in the same boat, right? you really have to look, see something. The difference is they had more of a pallet to work with. There's not much here to work with, and that's a good thing because we've done a lot. Um, but I did find it interesting that the main reason why the thought process we had last year when we said that we wanted to start re-examining all the redevelopment plans, the master plan, was specifically for the same reasons that he kind of brought up. We see that there are certain things have run their life in Somerville and now we have to figure out how we either maintain that and or continue to develop what can be developed in a in a way that's suiting to Somerville. Um Larry, what did you what were some of your thoughts when you were

I was surprised about the demographics about um Make sure your mic's on. Sorry. Excuse me. I apologize. Um, I was surprised about the demographics changes that younger people are simply not having the families they used they used to have. That's statistic. You see that just from people who live in your house. Yeah. So, the whole thing about the drinking, I'm not so sure because I think my kids are champs.

So, that's an interesting one. But it's an interesting one because it really isn't. And I I I had this conversation with my husband when I went home and I said, "You know what? I really thought about all all four of our children and without I I were on public so I'm not going to say too much about what my 20s were like but um them going that that thought process of every weekend going out where are we going where are we going where are we going where are we going whether it was a club or it was this or that they don't they really that's what they don't do not that they don't drink right they just don't do it outside

they don't do it outside like my you know mine who are you know 21 and up. Um they yeah they they do that um at each other's houses or you know they they so it is very different which because I thought that was very interesting but I thought that was kind of a bonus for us because uh there aren't really any other liquor licenses available. So that pushing and and having that I thought was actually a real true bonus for us. Well, he he mentioned that the the the thrust should be at developing rest more restaurants that don't rely on that. Yes.

More bring your own which we already in the middle of doing that. Half the restaurants in town Yeah. don't have any kind of access. But to your point also about you know the the um the demographics. So, you know, a lot in 17 when he was here last auto, he really focused on that. We had we were transit was uh um complexes were, you know, really getting pushed because this is what that that generation, excuse me, wanted in um more apartments, right? What was that? You were a fan.

Yes. So, and we did that and now that the the main focus that I the some of the main points I got out of it and I did rewatch it on Tuesday night that we're not going after that age group anymore. They already have what they want. Now, we have to look at some of these because they're not going to be there to to get that. And and I think one of the things is even though the statistic was shocking on the reduction in um the younger population didn't surprise me. Does that make like when I you really start to think about it, we've seen it throughout the all of the state of the the reduction in the school age children um the need for you know bigger and more more schools

and what he talked about dovetailed with the presentation we had about three weeks ago. Yes. Or maybe more when they talked about maybe more catering to work life balance for senior citizens. Yes. So that might be a focus of where we go. We already heard that once and then we heard the other side of it.

And that was where I was kind of thinking of like that out of the box thinking of it's not just as simple as saying we need to build more. It's well yeah okay we might need to redevelop or focus but what are we supposed to be f very very I think it just to me overall the message that I walked away with is we really need to be very specific in our planning on what that vision looks like what we see looking like in 20 years so that we can sustain what we've built right so and that's what I kept thinking about with those initial conversations 20 years ago with Bernie about the vision was about building up. This vision is sustaining and not overdeveloping now.

And be careful with ADUs. Yes. Which we were really careful I'd say in the fair share plants way. We stayed away from ADUs in the fair share plan because it's already a challenging subject. If you put it in the fair share plan, you would force people to lose even more control. So, it's a we've been thinking about ADUs for about two three years. I'm sure we're going to deep do a deep dive, but uh to what he basically said, be careful with ADUs because there's some unintended consequences you have to make sure that you're aware of. Yeah, I think about doing them in the basement that might be a problem. Yeah,

some kind of accessory unit that's not in the basement might be a better way to go. You got to have your microphone on. Andrea, microphone. Just because I know from trying to listen to the tape Tuesday, if you don't have that microphone on, you can't hear anything on it.

How do you not overbuild? If we're going to concentrate on not overbuilding, how do you not overbuild when everybody's coming in to build? That's part of the process of why, you know, very specifically on the redevelopment plans. That's really what controls that to be honest with you. Um the master plan gives the vision, but the details um are really through the redevelopment plans and the zoning, which is why we wanted all three areas looked at. Um because that in the redevelopment zones we can now look at what we want to restrict and maybe what we want to draw back on because we have seen in those areas a lot of development that you know we we have a very vibrant and he one of the other I don't know if every I'm sure you guys caught it but those who listen to it the resounding theme he kept saying is we have done it better than anybody else in the state. All those statistics were high like where other areas are dropping off. Nope. We're still bu we're still getting increases in population and and bringing and having that draw to Main Street because we've done such a good job of of our redevelopment. But to your point, that's done through really carefully examining each of the redevelopment plans, what we currently allow, what we might want to scale back on, or change in those on what we want through the redevelopment. But that's the only way you can we can get to control that is through that in the zoning.

He he also mentioned that sorry his the future he looks at is that those apartments are not going to be as profitable. He mentioned that in the future he said yeah in the future. Yeah. So that's the thing on where we where we go from there. Like do we look at town houses sometimes more popular or not? Even he said that's not as well I he's bas he's basically saying we need to capture the aging in place because in 10 years plus we're going to have a population issue and we're going to need to address the aging in place so you don't lose that cohort essentially. Yeah.

And that and that that style of living will be different than what we're currently building for which is where he tied that placemaking he called it or I we always refer to it as a destination the destination attractions but he called it placemaking and

that's where I see that shift. I think a lot of it what I took from that and you know first to agree with Lisa that I I was happy to hear that everything we were doing was ahead of the curve and we were still at the forefront where other people are now already worried and playing catchup. We haven't hit any kind of downward end. Our our vacancies are very low compared to everybody else in the state um even in the county. Um, and with it, I think, you know, with with the maintaining, I think that's it. It's keeping those people who are in those apartments to stay here and what, you know, as they get older in 10 years, what is the lifestyle that they're going to want? Since we don't have that age group coming up, who's going to want it? What does the person who's in the apartment today that might typically leave and go buy a house out, you know, somewhere else in 10 years, what are we going to do to keep them here? and what are the attractions that are going to

maintain what we have and keep those here while you know still attracting other new people but keeping the majority of them rather than letting them leave in the near future. It's essentially having a a vibrant housing stock to appeal to uh the ones getting older, young and everything in between so that you can capture all the people staying within the burrow or

staying here. as opposed to going somewhere else. So, so I watched it and then I had AI kind of summarize some key points here and I these are directionally correct but like I I like what you're saying because two things I think that we built the way we needed to build to get to where we are which is great right but I think in doing that we did build toward that younger crowd because that was kind of the guidance we were and we were aligned on that that's awesome but then the concerning thing for me is what you're hitting on and the data points I kind of put together here like a lot of the res residents 18 to 34 are leaving you know then you have the population drop of a younger age and to all of our points that's a little bit concerning to me and I think to your point through zoning and density and relooking at this as well as trying to keep the people here but also if those people are hellbent on moving out of the state for a reason that doesn't have to do with Somerville they're going to move so how are we going to attract that either the middle-aged crowd or the senior crowd to move in and make the the existing still viable and attractive to people. Like, do they want to live in a an apartment in Main Street with two or three bedrooms or one or two bedrooms, right? So, I think that's going to be the challenge ahead of us off the cuff. I don't know how to solve it. I think to your point, I think it is that discussion we're getting into right now and going to move forward, but yeah, some concerning stuff, some somewhat positive stuff in here, but we can talk.

Yeah. I'm sorry. No, I know. So, the other thing to what Chris was just saying and everybody else, you're trying to keep I like the younger people leaving for whatever reason. I mean, people come in, some of those are great town. We're located right in the center of New Jersey, so you can hit all major cities wherever you want to go. And that's what the younger people want. If you're trying to keep the older ones because we're older and if we wanna if we me I know if we want to downsize say we want to downsize and sell our house and whatnot

we can't live in an apartment for what we're paying for in our house.

So therefore we might have to leave the state to be able to afford to downsize. Otherwise, we're here because why would I go and pay $4,000 a month for an apartment for two bedrooms and I have a house and a yard and everything that we pay under $1,000. We're only paying tax. I mean, you know, I own my h, you So, one of the things that I thought was very interesting, too, is that there are some things that we're going to hit and then we're going to have those discussions that are never we can't address at the local level until some of those policies at the state level. He really did touch upon that some of this stuff that we're talking about, whether it's affordability, taxes, until there is drastic policy change at the state level, we are dealt those hand that hand and we have to figure out how to your point, right? But there's some things we're just not going to be able to change without state policy changing it. Because I thought that was another thing that was interesting is that, you know, this is something that may drive where, okay, yeah, if we want to do this, but we need to, you know, maybe push some of our the political side on on the council side saying, you know, like, listen, some you need to push for some policy change because there's only so much. Listen, we're planners. We're here to give that vision for the next 20 years, but

we don't we can't we have no effect. We're not a political board. This we're not here for that. We cannot change anything. We are just dealing we have to come up with a vision dealing with the card that cards that we were dealt. Yeah. And I do think that that's going to be one of the bigger ones because you know Yes, I am almost there. I just want to point it out. I know. I know. So nice of you. I'm a good guy. Yes, I know. So,

so but but to that point um we also right experience that issue with our children right now what they're going through. Um and it's the same struggle we're going to hit when to your point Andrea it's no different the struggle of that cost of effectiveness of of the cost of living is exactly the same. It's just two bookends of the of generations. Um and that I think is that's some of that out of the box thinking and all that. That's what we really need to. So, I know we could talk about it all night. Um, but I really wanted to stress that the like I watched it twice already. This is something that I really want to stress to the board and we'll st I'll stress it again next time with with the remaining board members that should be used as a tool continuously throughout this process because, you know, like even listening to it again on Tuesday, there were things that I didn't catch on Monday. Um, and I really think that we can um, it was just it was perfect timing and we are right at the prime of being able to use that material to help build that vision moving forward. So,

a lot of good charts and trends that he had to visuals for everybody to make sure you see. All right. Uh, timeline B. Uh, Bernie. Uh, I almost said Bernie. Oh, wow. Colin, this still would have been a compliment though. It's been a year. That was backhanded if there was ever one. Oh, you do have that. Can we make it bigger, do you think? Control without getting the zebras back.

Yeah, it works. Um, we we've added two new Good God. Bear with me. What did you do with it? No, I don't want to go there. I want to go the second page. Yeah. Thank you. We added these two that you can see here. Review of and update of storm water ordinance and excuse the typing. Review of the proposed tree ordinance. And we've had to fit it in with all the other activities that you're going to be looking at. and we understand that there is somewhat of a um urgency to looking at them and making recommendations. What we're up against is elections, Thanksgiving, and Christmas. And no matter who wants to get what done, they're not going away. So that we we've we pulled this together and I I conversed with Lisa on it and these are the best numbers we can get because when you start the review and the review being complete, they're the two critical parts of this thing and and having listened to the discussions up to this point in time, it's not something you're going to do in one meeting and it's not going to be a couple of pardon me, it's going to be a little bit time to work through it and come up with a final

recommendation. So, we've taken into account the holidays and we've taken into account um what needs to be done and these are the numbers we've come up with. Now, what we have to do and what we ask of you all is have a look at it because I believe Ryan's going to send out a hard copy tomorrow and um look at the whole array because there there's two pages now of projects and if you can see a way of moving something forward. We're in we're doing West Main Street and we're doing the East Central Business District currently. So, you can't really move those timings, but the rest are a little bit fluid. And now we've thrown these in. I wasn't game to start arbitrarily changing dates without getting your input. So, if you could do us the favor of having a look at it um say between now and sometime next week and getting back to me with any recommendations you have, we'll incorporate them in into this and review it again. So, and one of the things that Colin and I have talked about a lot is that there is, you know, there is a there's a procedure legally we have to follow with certain things too with time frames. So, we've tried to look at that. Um, you know, there might come a point where we have a planning board meeting like, "All right, we're good to go. Let's get it to council." Well, we might have to have we have a public session, right? We have to and then you have to notice for that and then noticing becomes an issue because it might not be able to get on the next meeting. So, we've really tried to be very careful with overestimating um near dates that are that are just not going to be obtainable. Now, that doesn't mean if it doesn't go a little faster than that that we can't, but we I don't want to set expectations that are beyond uh realistic right now. I I didn't even realize it until last

meeting that we have at this point now we have three meetings remaining for the year and that is it. Yep. So, we have our second one in October, one November, one December. That doesn't leave us a lot of time. And we do have some I think we have one more application that we might hear. Right. Right. Uh we still have to do the public hearing for the West End. Y which could be a meeting and then we're eventually hoping to get the uh if we can get it in for one of the last meetings, the um public hearing for the East End. Um so, we may need to, but I think right now we're okay. The hard part is having special meetings. The reason we only have two meetings is because it's the holidays. So getting people together for even a special meeting when you know

again you go noticing and and you have noticing, right? So I I think take a look at it. Um I don't think either neither uh Colin and I are like, "Nope, this is set in stone. This is all I'm pointing out is there's certain things that might have to be set in stone based on the legality of noticing and requirements because some things also, you know how it is. is we send it back to council, then council gets to send it back to us, and then we got to send it back to council. That takes time, too, right? So, we tried to take all that into consideration.

And even on this, as an example, you'll see on both of these new projects, recommendations to council and council review next year because you can't take an ordinance and go across the year. So, that we're constrained by that. And look at January. January is a dead month. Yeah. Right. You've got vacations, you got Well, we have reorganization reorganization, you've got everything. Yeah. Yeah.

So, yeah, definitely take a look at it. You're going to send that out tomorrow. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Um, so that's for the open discussion items, the new discussion items. Um, just reviewing real quick open business and this is just we're still in the process of we're in that time frame where we're waiting for all the committees um to be able to send their comments. The committee should be sending them to Ryan, correct? Okay. Just wanted to make sure. Yes. Yeah. DSA just sub submitted comments.

Okay. Um area need we are just waiting. I think it's next meeting is when we public know the notice was for right. Uh so we will have that public hearing on the west end. Um West Main Street East End. You're still in process of we're still finalizing some of the uh stuff. You're finalizing some of the stuff that of recommendations. Yes, we'll probably have direction within a week working with Colin and the committee. Okay. Um question. Yes, that's the Y right.

Um and again, we're not going to discuss stormwater ordinance and the tree ordinance. I did want Mike to give an update on some of the direction that we've given Mike to get us information so that we can start to review more behind the scenes. I know we received everything that the environmental commission had sent us. Um, but this is some stuff that Mike is doing for us behind the scenes to make some of that comparison of understanding uh where the base is and then what the some of the newer regulations are.

This basically coming out with the current ordinances and the state mandated ordinances and you can see the differences that what needs to be done and then taking that and looking at the environmental so that the whole planning board can look at what's there by reg by mandate needs to be done and then all the optional items and we can have a discussion of those three existing mandated and optional items and see what the board's take on both and that's both for the trees and for the storm water just so the the board knows the trees are dictated by the stormwater regs in the state so the state changed the stormwater rags and bought the trees in. So that's spurred off the whole conversation with trees that you have a state mandate regarding the trees that's really in the stormwater rags. So So anybody wants to say where's this the storm this tree mandate coming from? It's coming from the state stormwater regs. That's and uh and I think it's rightfully so. They're being broken up. You have stormwater discussion trees. There's two two separate entities.

Um and then the last one for zoning the B5. Um I asked Mike, he's going to send out what is allowed in that B5 zone so that we can see that. Um this is the one where they're making looking for us to make that recommendation. Do we want to add education to that? So we need to see I want us everybody to see what is currently allowed and then maybe some thoughts on maybe how we could adjust that. Yeah. basically looking should there be more flexibility in the D5 zone essentially. Yeah. To capture so we don't have uh vacant storefronts back to what Jeff Auto was dovetailing right back into this. How do we keep the ordinances vibrant so we don't have the vacant storefronts? Yep.

Based in the B5 and Main Street all over town. Yeah. All right. We had no ARB approvals. Uh I have no extra comments. I'm going to open up the meeting to the public for items that are not listed. Hearing none, I will close public session and uh motion to adjurnn. So moved. Second. All in favor? All opposed?