Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

regular meeting of the planning commission for uh November 3rd, 2025. 5 is called to order at 6:00 p.m. Could we have the roll call, please? Member Peterson here. Member Sparks Gillis absent. Member Ziggler here. Vice Chair Adler absent. Chair Williams here. Thank you. Bill, would you lead us in the pledge, please? Be happy to.

Ready? Pledge. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Okay. Next up, approve the order of the agenda. Does anybody want to change the order of the agenda? Move approval. Second. Moved and seconded. All in favor? I I passes 3 0. Public comment. It doesn't look like we have anybody here for public comment or online. So, we'll move directly to the consent items. Does anybody want to pull the consent items or have any questions about them before we?

None here. I'll move approval of the consent items. Second. Uh moved and seconded. All in favor? I I uh and I meant just one question about the uh these events. the this chart. There's a a number of things on here that are expiring this year. Uh some have one's has already expired and one is going to expire in a couple of days. What what is going to happen with those items?

Are these the improved entitlements or are these projects that are under construction? Uh the uh it's on the first page. Page eight is uh the uh Schaefer Family Trust. It says the expired uh October 30th. Oh, 4:30. Oh, that was actually final. So, hence why it says building permit final. Okay. [laughter] Yeah. So, it's all done. And that's actually the new Thai restaurant that opened up. Okay. Okay. And then moving down to the approved entitlements, the the first two there.

So 1420 Mission Drive, they are out of additional extensions. So going to assume that they will not have an approved building permit by the 6th of this month considering that they haven't even submitted for permit. So that will also die. Okay.

So they will start back at the drawing board. And as for the condo map, um, that one's a that one's an interesting one because that one we have, I believe this one is I don't recall if this was the 2-year extension, which I think it's the two-year extension, but this has a three-year um development uh plan that was approved. So, the map will die on the 25th on on December 4th, but the applicant is looking to redo everything. So, um, we may see something on that.

We'll see something completely different from what's been approved. So, that one probably will die quietly as well. So, okay. Thank you. Um, exparte communications have anything to report? Nope. None here.

Uh, no. Item five, item six, discussion items. discussion and direction for title 11 chapter 13 the signed ordinance. Uh before we start just a comment Raphael I want to uh thank you and staff for the work you did on this. Uh I know it's a lot of work. Uh Aaron and I have gone through this two or three times where we've had to do the work that uh staff has done this time and we never got any support. So I'm really happy to see this finally something actually happening.

Well, thank you. Yeah, I mean you guys started the work back in uh I want to say 201819 give or take. So before that [laughter]

well before you this evening is actually it's not the finished product. It's our draft sign ordinance uh planning commission review. So, just to give everyone who's watching or will watch this uh in the future a little bit of background on where we're at with this thing. So, uh we've been talking about a new sign ordinance since I started here. Um we did hold a joint workshop on March 13, 2025 with the planning commission and the DRC. Um that we got a little bit of direction on. Um and from that direction we ended up starting beginning a series of of feedback from the design review committee beginning in June. Uh held one in August and October. And so at this point we're really preparing the admin draft for city council in January 2026. So what that means is it's still an admin form. This you're not adopting something tonight. Uh but we're just basically asking for your feedback and comments and then we are looking for a a target adoption as of February. So essentially what'll end up happening is uh we'll we'll take this to city council. If we can get it into the end of the year, that'd be great for their feedback. If not, we'll roll out the first January meeting and then we'll target um February for us to actually begin the adoption process. And of course, our city attorney will still need to take a look at this who's on the line uh if you have any questions. So the basis for the amendments are really four-fold. Uh first is to modernize our our city sign regulations. if uh we've we've had these in place since 2012. We attempted in 2018 and 19 to amend these. Um just they've never really gone anywhere. Um we're really trying to ensure legal defensibility and first amendment compliance. That's the biggest key. Um third is we're trying to adapt to new technology and listening to the needs of our businesses. And then the last but not least one is maintaining our Danish village aesthetic. That's really what it comes down to is. So we have these competing sort of things all

glancing into one in terms of we have this brand we want to maintain. Uh but our siding ordinance hasn't really kept up with any uh case law and over the last 10 years and then of that we just you know we're trying to balance the what we're hearing from the business community. So, one of the the big items that our siden ordinance really falls short on is this idea of of content neutrality. And so, what the draft ordinance so far is is align with the big court case from 2015, which was Reed versus the Town of Gilbert. Um, so we've really removed messagebased distinctions, i.e. political signs, real estate signs, construction signs, all those have sort of been removed out of the ordinance, and instead we're really regulating based on physical attributes, placement, and duration. So, time, place, manner is really what it comes down to. Um, we've removed the idea of colors. We move the idea of logos that and the and fonts, etc., and really just drilling down to time, place, manner, but we want it to look with a certain aesthetic. and that's sort of been the legal standing since about 2015. The other one is just allowing non-commercial messages to substitute on any sign structure. So, we've recently had this uh where a property owner decided to place a non-commercial message sign up. Most certainly can do it. That's within their realm. Um it's just we need needed to make it very clear that it's it can substitute for an allowed sign. So again, just really trying to punch up that language to make sure we're consistent with federal case law. The next sort of set that we were looking at is modernizing our sign code. Uh so this includes streamlining language and much more clear intent. So um our code was in is ambiguous that it has language that it prefers or

recommends or et we sort of eliminated that. We've also simplified the permitting process and we've so we're introducing administrative sign permits and so that's sort of been this in in the 2018 2019 effort city staff um had had attempted to go ahead and get sign uh permits all administrative which for most municipalities actually is what they do. It's the kind of the standard. Signs are are typically again time place manner. There's not much to it. Uh of course with solving we're a little bit different. uh we definitely want to maintain our aesthetic and our look. So, we kind of also had the idea of of streamlining it that way, but we've heard back from this planning commission and the DRC. And so, we're going to sort of split the difference a little bit. So, what we've written in is some signage will be done administratively. So, many temp signs, uh A-frame signs that we will allow in um those will be done administratively or over the counter. So, they don't need to go to DRC. The big one that it actually will change out is suspended signs. So those are the ones that you mainly see along your sidewalks. Those are your pedestrian oriented signs that hang from the building. If you're using the same hardware and you're using everything and you're only changing out the sign and it meets all the intent of the code, you can get it over the counter. It's as simple simplistic as that. Um the DRC did wanted a caveat stating that if they uh applicant came back with a wall sign in six months or a time frame essentially, we've put down 6 months. So we'll make it pretty clear that hey, if you're going to do a wall sign that we want to see it all as one package, but if you're really just aiming to get something up and and get it going and you're not doing much and you're just doing that, let let's do that over the counter. So sort of a test run is probably the best way of taking a look at it. Um if everything works out pretty well then uh maybe it might be something

in a future goal to amend further signs uh to go into by right administrative permit only. Um but for now we got to run a test balloon and that's the test balloon we're going to run. The other uh is the objective design measurement standard. So again, getting rid of our current language, um, amending our current language that discussed colors, that discussed fonts, that discussed logos, and inability to put on a website, etc. That's content based, that's message based. We're not supposed to be looking at it. So instead, we're looking really at objective standards instead. And so what that means is what is what type of material is being utilized for the sign? How tall is it? How big is it? Where is it located? those type of things that are much more definitive and objective that's falls in line with uh federal case law. And then the other one is is integrating with our updated design handbook. So we have a set of I where that's where we can say hey if you're looking for this type of design aesthetic this is probably much more pleasing. Uh but again it's more it's essentially uh not necessarily a recommendation but just hey this is what we tend to prefer more so than anything else and sort of integrating those two together. So some of the proposed new signage uh that's in our ordinance is the regulation of murals. This is something where uh city staff did spar with the DRC um and by city staff meaning myself and the extension of our city attorney um our city attorney's office. Um, so currently our ordinance actually doesn't regulate murals. It's a blank. Um, murals are are great is that they add some vibrancy, especially to blank walls. Uh, but there are pitfalls to those, particularly when it comes to what's being painted and what the message is. Um, best practices is sort of stay out of that realm and just say, "Hey, look, as long as you've met these

criterias, we are okay with it." Um, so, uh, while we overheard the DRC and we took in their, um, we did modify some of the language, uh, based on their suggestions, we are still going to be recommending to council that this is done at an administrative level as long as you've met the criteria for it. And again, art is extremely subjective. Uh, it's the eye of the beholder. uh what one um sort of uh beer cup looking thing that sits in the median is a beer cup looking thing versus a trophy. It's a whole different story. Uh what is a stein versus a trophy versus what is art? It's all subjective. So again, rather just keep the metrics in there in terms of up upkeep of maintenance. Where is it located at? Is it visible? How big is it? How long are you going to install it, etc. um allowance for A-frame signs. That's something we heard from our workshop. Um so in this instance, we are going to allow A-frame signs. Um they will not be allowed in the rightway. Uh they will require a sign permit that will require to be reviewed. Um there is something uh that we're proposing is an actual change out of the sign face every 30 days because that's the intention of the A-frame sign. It's really to draw a customer in whether you have a sale, whether special, the day, etc. Again, we're not looking at regulating the message um or the content. We're just simply saying, "Hey, if you can change out that face every 30 days, that's great." And again, that sort of prevents this idea of purchasing an A-frame sign and just having a static message all day long. And really, the intention of the A-frame sign is to advertise something different, whether again weekly special, nightly special, a sale, a new item, and just really and leaving that up to our business owners. But again asking for a a a change in the face every 30 days as part of the issuance of the permit and again time place manner regulations. So the sign needs to come in at the end of

the business day. It just can't permanently stay out. Can't be lit. Can't have balloons on it. Um and it can't be located on right away. It needs to be located within x amount of feet from the door. It needs to keep a ADA path cleared. So, there's regulations that are time, place, manner, uh, to try to streamline that, but allow for our businesses to utilize the A-frame signs, wayfinding, and directional signage for pedestrians. This is actually new. Um, currently we kind of have that. We kind of don't. Uh, we I think at best what you're you're seeing is the directional signage that's been in planters. Um, which again is great. Uh, has kind of worked. Um, but planters aren't technically permanent. there's no foundation to it. Some of them have bolt they think that the way around it is they said well if the planter is permanent and boltered in we we'll call it good but then that becomes a sticky wicket. So at this point we're we've introduced these this type of signage again with objective standards that it is a permanent sign structure. It can't be in a planner. It has to meet the objective criteria and again it equals the playing field for everybody. um umbrella awning and freestanding signs are clarified. Um and so those that's uh some of our umbrella sign uh language was not very clear. Um our freestanding signage is now clarified. And then uh digital limited signs limited and standardized. So again, this is part of that message of eliminating content base. One of the biggest ones is have neon signs. Uh neon signs is strictly prohibited except for a hotel use. That's content. Sorry, can't have that. So we've heard loud and clear to just eliminate straight up. um revised standards. So again, illustrating measurement and standards. You see that in your staff report and we'll continue to um try to include as many images to help city staff and business owners uh determine how to do that. Um objective limits for area, height, and placement. One of the bigger

issues in and allowances what we've done is we've actually increased the amount of signage that you can do um in terms of the letter height. Um, and we've sort of given you this box to say, "Hey, if this is based on your linear footage. So, if you have 50 feet of frontage, 50 ft is your max, you go figure it out. We're not going to tell you how to figure it out, but you as the business owner need to go figure out. So, if you want to put all your eggs in one basket in a sign, be our guest. That's perfectly fine by us. Um, if you want to split the difference, which most people do, they'll split it between a suspended sign, a regular wall sign, or a sign on a on an awning, perfect. That's fantastic. But you got to figure this out. We'll give you the box to play with. And that's a big fundamental difference versus what our current ordinance is. It accepts a window sign and accepts a umbrella sign and it accepts a suspended sign. So you start having all these sign exceptions and that's where you really do get the sign clutter versus just stating you got 50 square feet to work with. Figure it out. You as the business owner and if it doesn't work, cool. Then you do something new. But you got to figure it out all within your 50 square ft. Whether it's uh a new whether it's a display sign that's in the front coupled with a new awning sign, etc. Again, it's really putting the the power back in the business owner's hands. We're actually proposing illumination standards [gasps] for a town that really uh really really wants dark skies. It was kind of shocking to not have an illumination standard. We got that in. So, that's what we're proposing out. And then again, strengthening our maintenance and repair requirements. Um the couple sections sort of left it up to uh the director but gave no time frame. um others were out of whack with existing code sections. So really we streamlined it. We made it consistent with our chapter one that already deals with it

and again just really trying to clean it up. Um and then as mentioned before looking at the streamline review, the administrative permits um really looking at the DRC um to handle more of the complex applications. So, um, again, those wall signs or sign programs go to them. And then making a very clear appeal section and exception procedures. So, right now, that's not very clear of where that goes. Um, our findings have been cleaned up. And again, we're looking for if we're loosening up the sign ordinance, you better have a very good reason why you're looking for an exception. And then again, consolidating our enforcement and compliance under our city code. So that's basically the overview of what is being proposed in the draft signed ordinance. Your tasks this evening are just to provide comments and feedback. Uh provide any directions or modifications and ask questions of say you staff because again this isn't um the last time we'll be checking in with the planning commission. Um but we are almost there to sort of finish up and wrap up uh the sign ordinance which has been many years in the making. And with that I'll turn it over to commission for any questions. So, any immediate questions before we go to public comment?

I I do. Raphael, could you um do we have any regulation on murals? And if so, could you talk about that a little bit in the current ordinance or in the proposed ordinance? Well, you indicated that you did not want to restrict, but I don't know what you currently have. So, I guess we don't have anything in the current ordinance, which is why we're proposing it now. And what are you proposing? So, in the current section, it's it's coming it's called out in the proposed um side ordinance. It it's called out as its own sort of specialty signage. And so here it sort of defines what a mural is, what's the purpose, exempt from sign consideration. Page 29.

Yeah, page 29 and 30.

Thank you. And then it really the review authority falls onto the director and then as long as the standards are and and the first standard is a non-commercial content. A mural is non-commercial. It doesn't contain any logo, trademark, trade names or other commercial identifiers. And if the primary purpose is aesthetic, cultural or expressive rather than advertise. Uh so case in point, you get a nice little mural of of a Coke bottle. It's a Coke bottle. So it's it's pretty there. uh locations just located on the exterior wall or permanent surface visible from the public rideway. Uh just making sure that any lighting shall be directed to prevent any glare on the adjacent properties. Um safety is to not cover windows or doors and then ensuring a maintenance and then putting a limit on the number of murals which is one per per building or property whichever is less.

So um I I understand the free speech component of things. Um, what if something were proposed that was patently offensive? Um, swastikas and things of that nature. How, if you have no standard, how would you regulate that? I I will turn that question over to our city attorney, Taylor, who is on course. So, um, patently offensive speech, there's a different standard for it, and hate speech that's specifically defined and treated differently under the First Amendment. So if something did come up that was proposed that fell into those categories, the city would be able to to regulate that and essentially say no.

Thank you. Yeah, it would it would still require a permit. So it would still require a submitt required for us to review to make sure it meets the criteria. Um we're we're just not taking it and bubbling it up to um the powers that be. Unless, of course, we most certainly have to. And in in an application like that, most certainly we could reference out to the DRC first and have them take a crack in a public hearing. Um, that's always within the director's ability to do that. Uh, but again, it it's just administratively we want to continue to just keep that at a staff level.

I appreciate the clarification. I will have a question um on a specific item. when you get to 1113 7 AE um why don't we go to public comment okay before we get into the individual if that's okay sure

okay well well we'll take it to public comment uh there's nobody here there's nobody online so we'll close public comment and bring it back to the commissioner Bill, I interrupted you. No worries. That's appropriate. Um, so what I found was in that section, let me get to it. Yeah. What was that section? It was 11-13-7 capital A, little E. And um, page around page 20 or so. 22. 22. Thank you.

Get there to Um, I just had a question about time of display. You have none listed. So that indicate that you're not allowed to do that. Um, as in there's we don't have a duration of time of display as in 180 days, 6 months. Um, and we can most certainly change the language. So no restriction. Correct. So, um yeah,

we just don't want to and the r the rationale is we do not want to uh specifically limit um non-commercial signs on residential properties whether it's you know elections are completely different that they got their own sort of guidelines and everything but but more so if you want to support the troops or you want to voice your opinion on whatever administration's in place or whatever or product dour or or keep your goats in your yard. I we just don't want to we don't want to limit that.

Okay. I have just I I have a lot of things to to mention. None of them major I hope. Uh but just one general question. Uh in the past, our biggest problem with the signed ordinance, aside from people complaining about it, is a lack of enforcement. Are there any plans of foot to actually enforce these regulations?

Yeah, that's the intention of this. When somebody gets a sign approved, is there's somebody that's going to go out and look at the sign when it's up and say, "Yes, that's that's what was approved or no, it's not." Because a lot of times people make changes in the process of putting up their signs.

Yeah. So I mean that so with the sign permit obviously um there there is supposed to be followup and and and for the most part most people when they put permanent signage it is what it is. Um as far as the temporary signs that's a different story. That's end of story is yes there will be enforcing to it. Um we'll be since code enforcement and compliance is in our community development department. I'll be working very closely with our code compliance officer to make sure our A-frame signs and temporary banner signs are are done at the time frame to which they're approved and taken down at the time frame in which they're supposed to be taken down. So there there very much is enforcement that goes with it as there is today and very much follows our our policies for um enforcing our ordinance. Well, I I've got a few.

Well, what why don't we just go through page by page and starting on page 16. Can we start on 15? 15. Okay. 15. Um B. It's just a I think it's a typo. B is I think it says consistent with section 11134. I think it's 11133 which is the exempt signs I think. Yes, it could be it. We'll check back again because it's admin draft. Some of the sections would get moved around. So, we've got to make sure that's correct. That's all I had on on 15. Thank you.

Okay. Page 16, exempt signs.

Um I I have some questions. Um, so we we've got if we go to uh 11133 and we go down to two and temporary signage related to Ulfest and Danish days or any other official city holiday. Um, I assume that's a legal term. Is it is something where they say we declare that Fourth of July is an official city holiday or event and they do that every year. Do people come up and say here's an official event. It's going to be I don't know car show in the park. I mean it is it limited or is it up to city council to just come up with these official city holidays? It might be offensive that Ulifest is listed in Danish days, but other um other holidays are not for and and so I'm just curious, do we put anything in there or do we just say any official holiday as declared by city and let it go?

So we we specifically did Yulfest simply because that's something that in Danish days is those two big sort of festivals, Fourth of July being the other one. Um really the aim is to just have the ability for parks and wreck who issues out uh temporary event permits to allow for sort of those banner signs to be there as a in conjunction with that. Um we most certainly can clean it up. Um but really the reality is we we want to be make sure sort of cover our bases to say that the signed ordinance doesn't affect any of those city sponsored events and most certainly we can clean clean the language up.

Okay. it. You could certainly say any temporary signage related to any official city holiday event or events such as Ulfest, Danish Days, etc. And then you'd cover official events. And that's a that's actually a fantastic clarify. We do have a definition of holiday in the municipal code. It kind of broadly refers to any federal or state holidays. Um, and then I believe the city could also uh establish a city holiday by ordinance as well. Um, so that that's where we're getting the definition of holiday there.

But that's actually a very excellent suggestion of of cleaning that up. And again, we really just don't want to hamstring ourselves for especially, you know, special events that that applicants go through and and that's been sort of that question of, well, what can they do signwise? I'm like, well, um, [laughter] got to get it declared special event, I guess, right? where city holiday whereas it if if the if the signage is turned in with the special event they've already cleared the barrier they're not going to do anything and we don't need to take a look at it so that we'd much rather prefer that than the ladder

can I ask on number three underneath that um it's talking about again these are exempt and it's the non-eliminated signs but not limited to credit card acceptance I get that business hours open and closed I get it or menus use. I didn't see a menu um portion section in here. Yeah, because that's content based. We don't want to do that anymore. That's why it says display instead. Should we be taking menus out of this? Um it's it's we could in theory. Um again,

it says it's an aggra of only two square feet. That's aggra. That's all of it. So, you're going to get a whole lot in two square feet. That's sort of the point because it is there is the display sign that allows for that sort of additional larger display and that's already caked into the ordinance. So again the intention and we could remove menu as an example which is fine by me because again the real reality comes back to is we want to exempt out aggregate of two square feet your hours of operations your your credit card acceptance do you accept Bitcoin be my guest I don't care our current

menu been such a a hot button you know how many do you have what do you do it I my suggestion would just take menus out because it's more subjective again my menu is different than yours than the credit card in the open and close would be happy to take it out. So,

okay. Um, number four, the special event. Now, we're into decorations, not signs, but we're talking about decorations here, obviously, non-commercial messages. They can go up 30 days before an event and and must be down 72 hours after an event. Um this is just confusing but a bit ULFest is that the whole month. So if they declared that that's the 1st of December through the whatever it is um does that mean that they need to when they declare those events they need to have a start and a finish date knowing that we want it after the Christmas tree burn? We don't want it on the 27th of December if that's what we're looking for. 30 days prior to an event seems a lot. Going back to Ula Fest as an example, that means November one you could start putting up Christmas tree decorations and stuff. Um I I get it when it's maybe a Danish days, a one-day event. Even that is a long way out to go 30 days prior to a fiesta or a Danish days. I I so that that's a long period of time and kind of a short time to take it down afterward. in some of the others. I think we've got like a a seven day after an event on some things and I don't know that that's just my thought and I always use look for the extremes that we would start getting Christmas decorations up today if if you starts on December 3rd at the parade which I think that's kind of what they declare it to be. It's not the not just the holiday. So I think we ought to just look at that think it through. So we we can um the reality is this is really it's a twofold. One is trying to cover Yilifest Halloween and other you know Fourth of July etc. But also we we've had requests in the past for businesses that celebrate you know one year

anniversaries and can they put up balloons etc. So most certainly we can quantify it with the time difference. So if you're doing a one day one to three day event 72 hours makes sense. Um and then for longer events we can extend out the time to uh remove the decorations. Yeah. So be happy to include sort of that time frame. Tighten that up just just a bit was was my thought. I like that approach too. Yeah. But there's also the question of when you can start putting up the decorations. I understand some flexibility on the back end. But you know can they according to this they can start 30 days before the sale the special event. Yeah.

Right. And and then they have to take it down 72 hours afterwards. Correct. And and so part of it is maybe there's the event of a sale and event of something like a popup whatever they're doing in in the park or at Demirus Square or somewhere. And the other is these official city holiday festivals that you know two classifications. Yeah, it sounds like we may just need to cut a se two separate exceptions and that's again not a problem. That's the intention of sort of this study session is to to get that and I know we try to combine it as much as we can into one. But yeah, it's fine. If it makes application much easier, I'm all for that.

Um on down lower 1113-4 But before you get there, I have a question on five. Sorry.

Uh this is uh a fixed to vehicles. It says magnets, vinyl application, other forms of material uh of permanent adhesive. I question the word permanent. Magnets aren't permanent. Vinyl applications can be peeled off. Uh what was the intent there with permanent adhesive? the the the intent is to show that the that the sign is is sort of a fixed in some way, shape or form that doesn't appear to be temporary, which is why such signage such as banner, boards, paper, wood, material, any other sort of temporary sign um is not included. And and here it's not. We don't have many vehicles that do that. In other jurisdictions, we've had vehicles where they parked the car and they put the sign in the window pointing out, you know, and it's a cardboard sign. So again, just trying to differentiate between someone that has a has gone through the process of of either vinyl or putting window lettering, etc. that is really, you know, trying to make it not into a a moving billboard per se, but you know, directing traffic to a particular area. It's just trying, you know, we're just trying to differentiate a a permanent versus something that's temporary and attention getting.

Would the as any examples would the signs on the trolley be exempt under this? Those are already exempt. They're different sections. So, yeah. Okay. And what about the signs on the roofs of the Domino's Pizza delivery guys? Again, that's that's typically fine. We're trying to walk that fine line to, you know, differentiate between the two. Okay. Well, and and I brought that one up in particular because it says that the sign can't project above or from the vehicle profile. So, by that definition, dominoes shouldn't be able to do that.

Yeah, we again, we can take a look at that and try to make that work. or [clears throat] just walking a fine line and we'll try to sniff that out. Okay. Such as exceptions being made for delivery vehicles or something, commercial de delivery vehicles. Yeah, that's one way of doing it. So, um and under four, again, I'm just trying to emphasize the the 30-day and the 72 hours, you can do it three times a year. That's times 30 days. That's I'm beating a dead horse. That's 90 days. That's a quarter of the year. You could have stuff up. So, let's just if we can squeeze it down. Thank you. We We will We will squeeze that down.

Thank you. Thank you. Okay. You had um on 1113-4 number one offsite signage. Um, I really, if we, if we turn to page 36 for definition of off site signage, now I'm not saying the other one was any better. It's probably the same. It's right in the middle of page 36. Offsite signage that is not located on the same legal lot of the business.

Okay, that that's where it's saying. So that means that if you're in a square and you're on the you can put signs remotely throughout the square if you got permission obviously from yourself or from the landlord. And I was always of the belief even talking to tenants of mine that you cannot put an off-site sign down there. the signs need to be on your frontage, your lineage, your It doesn't matter that it's all on one legal lot or you can have people putting signs around um off of their off of their businesses. So, I don't know if the if there's a better definition or if you guys chatted about that, but offsite didn't to me mean off the property that you have your one of 17 businesses on and you can do it anywhere on there. It had to be in front of your business or over your door.

I seem to recall from our previous discussion and I think you brought it up Erin about it being proximate to the business and you even talked about some distances I think but primarily it was with I think Arames. A frames and that's in here as 5t from your primary door which is great. Yeah. But I always thought Jack you've been around it enough too that the signs had to be on your exterior. walls of your property, not your neighbors because they don't care, but you're on one legal lot. So,

so you might be able to cover this on and we haven't gotten there yet under a sign program for uh a square where you have a number of businesses. One area that the developer or the owner could come up with a signed program for uh that business location and get the program approved through the city. And then it would be a collaboration between the owner or the landlord, the city, and

but we still need to define off-site signage because the landlord's going to come in and say, "Well, it doesn't it says off-site signage could be anywhere on my piece of property. I've got 15 tenants, and so I'm coming in with this signage all around off my off of the rental spots. There are some very small um shops in town, retail shops, very small, 300 feet, 400 square feet, 200 square feet, and they don't maybe have enough walls, so they want to put them down and across. And I don't think that's maybe what what I want to see happen. I'd rather have I'd rather have site signage defined a little bit better. Well, 1134 says that it's not allowed.

Uh it's under prohibited signs. Uh yeah, off-site signage, but the definition of offsite is the legal lot that you have your rental on. Yeah, it sounds like we can adjust it to both off-site and off- premise. So that's perfect. I think it used to say off premise. You're absolutely correct instead of offsite before. We can we can make that adjustment.

Um under number four on this the digital display LED. I get it all. I understand it. Can we should we say that you can't have those inside or outside or seen from the street because you can get a lot of neon and stuff inside and can we even regulate that if it's back 15 [laughter] 18 in from the window? Maybe we cannot. That's a tough one. I mean there's a couple businesses where you can see the LEDs through the window. They see the signage in there and um

and we never we never say I know we do this thing of 18 inches be after the window. You can do signage and you're not But the neon that you can still seems like it should be maybe a little tighter. But um my thought well and that this that starts to really blur that line of where do we sort of draw the line of of what we can and cannot see. So, you know, in this instance, I'm, you know, some businesses, it's just easier for them to do the digital display, especially on the menu boards if they're, you know, coffee shops, etc. Hadn't even thought about that. That's the hot thing right now.

Yeah, it's just easier. So, I, you know, I'd rather keep to just regulating what we can see from the right away. Um, one thing that we can add in is the amount of lumens. So, that's that's definitely one way to regulate it. And again trying to be in a very succinct objective manner that if we can see the lumens at night or you know that that's going to be the easiest way to do it. So okay it's all I have on 16

17 um perhaps number seven at the very top because these are prohibited signs. It starts number seven outdoor decorations maybe comma except as a as allowed under 1113-3 which we just went over which is 11 the exempt signs which is for the festivals and boppity bop just because wait a minute you can't do out there I can't I thought we could do it here just you know more info sometimes better um this poll sign number 20 on that page page 17. And if we go to a definition of poll signs on page 37, we um we give a definition of a poll sign, but we are saying the poll signs are prohibited. So I I don't know. I I'm just I'm just wondering.

I want we want the definition there so we can make sure it's prohibited. Okay. Okay. That's and and that's fine because we always allowed pole signs in our current. You can have a pole sign. If you have 100 feet, you can go up in the air with one. We're now saying two, which makes it nicer. Okay. Yeah. I want to be able to say nah, no pull. So you here's the definition. You've met the definition, so no pull. Y. So I don't have anything. Well, I have a question. Go ahead. I'm sorry. On sign programs, uh, I couldn't find a definition of a what a sign program is.

We may have inadvertently left out the definition. We'll we'll add the definition in. [clears throat] Yeah. And uh what would be the and I alluded to this earlier. What would be the process uh for uh individual signs on businesses uh that are included under the sign program.

So typically a sign program includes a list of conditions that run with the lay of the land. So it's very similar to conditional use permit. So once those get codified um and then they are passed by resolution, we keep the resolution. We actually do have a few sewing programs here in town that are already active um and some of them it's hit and miss because they're not consistent. Some of them say it can be approved at staff level, some say they can't. And so um but the reality comes back to is the whole point of the sign program is it is that there's a program that's laid out it's particularly when you have these smaller shops and the you know trying to direct people to where they need to be or larger shopping centers and the program just basically dictates how the signs are supposed to look where they're supposed to be located and if you meet that criteria city staff should be able to um process a a permit over the counter. And so that that's the intention of the sign program is as tenants come and go um they have a sign program that's approved a new tenant comes in it's like I want to do a new sign. Okay well this has a sign program please see attached and have your sign do everything towards the sign program and we approve it call it a day. Okay. Well, that was uh second going to be the second part of my question that uh in exactly ceremon the situation you uh suggested uh uh new business comes in. Uh would and and you know everything is according to what was in the the sign program that was approved for that. Would that person actually have to come to the city again or can the landlord or owner approve it or do both have to approve it?

Yeah, again we I mean landlords typically don't really say much unless there's a new placement. Um it's again it's a signed permit. It just would as a condition of the sign permit would simply say if it meets the intent of the sign program, you know, city staff is able to approve the permit through an administrative sign permit. Done. So again, it does say sign face, right? You can you can do that.

Yeah. And that that's the point of the conditions is is is to have that. Now again a sign program is is different. You want to each that means each site is different. So it's just let's pretend that the Neielson Center one day goes through a massive fateless and they they want a a sign program with a large pylon sign. Well maybe you want to see what it what it looks like each time a new tenant comes in. So we can condition that the pylon sign specifically when a new tenant comes in it goes to the DRC. You write the condition as such. So that that's that's the beauty of the sign program is it is much more sight specific and and the controls of how we want to see it.

Yeah. Well, the having the definition would help a lot there. Uh I have nothing else on 17. Neither do I. I have nothing on 18.

18. Um I just a couple uh silly stuff I I suppose. Um re uh let's go to sign permit to a wherever we see review authority. um sign we had to say signage review authority because you do say it in some places and capitalize it because I know what you mean. Um it's so if we just you know this it's it's in your box your table signage review authority and just capitalize them. It's a couple places it is and couple it is not. Same with B. Number one, administrative sign permit capitalized way at the bottom last paragraph. Administrative sign permit is not capitalized. I'm just saying just you'll probably catch that consistent.

Yeah, but yeah. Yeah, that's that's um Yeah, appreciate it. Um and then number three at the top of that page sign program I put big question define this and you you've got that and you got that and so we'll get a definition as to how you get a a uh because it's required and so therefore we had a yeah so that was it there. I have one other question that I skipped over on the sign program. uh who is responsible for the maintenance of the the signs?

So, it's typically always the landlord or tenant. So, again, we're we're not responsible for that. We just do the approval. But would uh be the would it be the landlord's responsibility to notify a tenant that, hey, your your sign needs to be repainted or freshened up or whatever needs to happen. the latch broke, you need to fix it.

So, is that something? Some landlords don't do that. The city will come give you a notice and say this is in disrepair and then the landlord will go to the tenant and say get it repaired or vice versa and they'll get it repaired. But these these ticks go against the business owner as we know. I've argued for years and I always lose to the city attorney that we should be finding people and then it should go against the property owner so that there's an enforcement mechanism instead of a business just closing up and going way back to Santa Barbara and leaving $1,000 worth of fines and um not we're trying to collect money. It's just we're we're trying to enforce. So it's kind of up to correct me if I'm wrong landlord and tenant working it out. it is and I mean if it comes to disrepair then then you we we can find the tenant and that's what we typically have done is we we find the tenant um now we have informed the landlord and some tenants aren't happy about that but you know that's that's just our way of particularly when we're setting a second and third notice that's when we start slapping on the landlord. Um, but we've really tried to make it at at best practices. Once we send one notice out to a tenant, we actually also CC the property owner that that way there's no sort of miscommunication. Well, this is the first time we've heard of it. Well, we've CCD you like six, four copies, so I don't know [laughter] where your mail has been gone. So,

so what happens and the business gets a notice from the city and you know they you don't know it but they've already decided to close the business and the next day they're gone and their old sign is hanging there. Is it then become does it become the responsibility of the landlord to do that? Yeah, it ultimately eventually does fall into the the landlord, which is why we have a signed maintenance section. So, basically sort of outlines, you know, what that upkeep is. And then, you know, in that same subsection that there's a notice to repair, you know, the director or my designate, you know,

I was just thinking in particular with the sign program, uh, who's who's responsible for what? Again, each reading this, it wasn't clear to me. Each sign program you got to treat it as its own entitlement. So it's not all sign programs are created equal. So again those are exceptions that will carry conditions and those are discussions that happen at each and every individual sign program and not every not every property will have a sign program and that's typically um it's meant for larger properties but is also meant to assist some of our smaller properties that have multiple tenants.

Yeah. Well, I understand you don't have to have a sign program, but if you do, the the city should have some framework uh size, you know, some objective standards that go into that signed standard or that uh program program. Yeah. And even even if the doesn't if it stays silent, it it kicks back to our code, which our code has, you know, the basic maintenance requirements that need to get done. So, Raphael, also that I believe you have the findings for the sign program and the ordinance as well. So those would need to be met um for the sign programs. Yes, that's correct.

So section E has the findings that would need to be made to approve those anyways. So okay, page 20 or I just have a six in the bottom paragraph. It just says established by the director. I think that's community development director. No big deal. But catch that.

Just uh uh uh one comment on the uh example up at the top of where it says solving shop. You've got XY plus XY. But down here when you're talking about tutoring, you're using ABCD. I think you should use ABCD in the you know uh in both instances again just for consistency. Okay, page 21. Um my here's my question on number seven at the top is measurement of the building facade. um from building frontage and then we slip we we go over to the facade. I think we had to just keep it building frontage but nevertheless um facing to the street. My question here is corners. Is it then streets?

Yeah, it actually is. So yeah, so maybe parallel to the street and put s in parenthesis so people realize that it's both. I I figured it was but yeah. Oh, very much. That's the great thing about having a corner lot is you get more signage from your pitch. So okay.

Um one under that design and construction e this is this freestanding signs and you know this is a new new uh word that's in our code as far as I know. I remember polls I remember monument but not freestanding. So, it's good that we have it there. Um, I'm I'm I'm not um I guess I'm not understanding. The freestanding signs utilizing bases should be a minimum one foot in height off the ground and three high bases shall be this this. But then if we if I go to page 22 and 23, 22 at the bottom is where freestanding signs start as a header number three. And it starts going up saying under freestanding signs. They have a maximum height of six feet and they can be 32 square feet. And I'm maybe I'm getting them confused. No, that freestanding and this free standing. You've caught an error and it should that should read monument sign that section

ex or Yes, that's exactly what I wrote. Isn't that the monument over there? Yes. Okay. We have those smaller freestanding I correct. So that should so that is so that should flip to monument sign standards instead. Yep. Versus freestand. Yep. Under three. Yep. Yes.

And that's what I had on 20. Um I have a question about illumination. Um on uh C it says uh for uh externally illuminated signs it says low lumen output but internally we specify a maximum. Should we specify a maximum for the uh externally illuminated signs as well? Yeah, we we we could um again the external illuminate those are a little bit since we're trying to not have the internal illuminated ones we most certainly can um and I can take a look and do a little bit of research on what's the best practice on on that

uh look at uh uh color temperature uh I think at what point do you want to [laughter] regulate this thing to I mean, I I agree. Some some temperatures are soft white lights or do you want uh there's there's candle, there's soft white, there's there's a lot. I think at at some point and some are are very bright even though the lumens are the same, they appear much brighter. The the blue hue Yeah. when you get up to the the 5,000 Kelvin.

I I wish we would handle that with our with our building lighting, too, because some people have gone with these very bright. I'm sure they meet the lumens. Um, right. I don't know how that's ever been handled. Yeah, we can we could probably extend it with foot candles would probably be the best uh go about for that. So, again, it's more of like the foot candles is just how how far away you can see it versus lumens. Um, so most certainly we can add in the foot candle. Um, and then again, the color, I get it. Some colors look, you know, better than others. Um, it's a discussion. I just don't in the same area. Can you have color changing lights as in the park?

Well, the that's city facility city stuff. That's exempt. So, we're not I mean, no, but I mean, could somebody do that for an externally lit sign and have color changing uh uh illuminating? In theory, yes. So, we could probably want to set that to one solid color only and let the business No flashing. No flashing, which flashing is already in. So that's already prohibited. So if it's flashing and that's already prohibited, so um but limiting to one solid color is probably the best bet. Yeah. Yeah. They do have a definition of foot candle, but yeah, you're right to that.

The last thing on that, again, hate to beat it up. C1E, freestanding signs again at the top there. So C1E on 21 I wrote here. What are these? I I don't know what these freestanding signs are that have to be a foot off the ground but can't go more than free. It's a monument sign. So again, it's that's it needs. So originally the freestanding was just in one category. Um and then upon sort of reflection, we had this thing called a kiosk sign, right?

But it was it's a kiosk cuz it move there was a whole bunch of things. So instead it's like okay when we break out and say monument and a freestanding because really that's what it is is and that we have a freestanding you know menu signs that but they got to be they can't be more than 3 ft. Monuments can be six and a half right. So this so this design and construction is more so referring to monument signs because again you want that base to at least be 1 ft up to give the sign height and then you want to max out that base on a monument sign to three. just about the bases here. Correct. These standing signs using bases. The bases should have a minimum of one foot. Correct.

Maybe just put comma. The bases should I read it four times and and went what? I thought it had to be a max of six. Yeah. Okay. We'll add an illustration. We'll add an illustration this. I think that'll help help out. And it says they have to be decorative and located in a planter. Correct. Yeah. If they're located in the planter, you can't see them, right? Oh, that's the point of the base is the base is to elevate the sign up post. The post or the base, it elevates the sign up. So, u but again, you still have a maximum that you had adhere to, but what what you don't want to see is the sign droop all the way down to the bottom beyond the base and no one can read it because again, the intention of the monument sign isn't for a pedestrian, it's for the motorist.

I'm on 23 if if we pass 22. I don't know if we have I I just have a a question on freestanding signs in residential districts and it talks about uh one per property or residential unit with multiple units are located in common. So uh a house with an ADU couldn't have two. It could still only have one. This is our way of calling it a real estate sign without calling it a real estate sign. [laughter]

because it it's actually all meant to be a real estate sign. So, um you got to kind of read between the lines a little bit. Um because time of display is actually what keys it into what it actually is. Seven days of sale, right? Exactly. So, seven days of sale are rented. And so, the reality is this is just a a a for rent sign or a for sale sign, but we just can't call it that due to contentbased messaging.

Okay. But in in residential districts, you can put up a a sign as long as it meets the the size. And uh so given that, I was wondering what happens in mixed use where you have a business on the ground floor and residential on the top. It depends on again the the sign of what we're talking about. So, if you're talking like the non-commercial message sign, Yeah.

then if it's got on the the residentials on the second and third floor and they have a window and as long as it's two square feet, knock your two and a half square feet, knock your socks off, put it on the window. I can't I'm not going to control the message even if it's the most absurd message known to man. Right. And our ordinance does say businesses or entities on the first floor, put your signs on first floor, second floor, put them on the second floor. So the residents by definition is second floor. Therefore, that's where it would end up being.

Okay. Uh on page 23, just a a knit uh um at the very bottom BC, it says maximum 3 and 1/2 ft. It probably should be a a maximum of three and a half feet. Just a knit. Um I've got something on F on page 23 way up at the top. AB CDF again this is I I I wrote this twice here where we talk about we talked about earlier time of display shall be temporarily only placed prior and I circled prior we need a definition of prior as we spoke earlier and it's the same down on G straight down on number four placed prior to an event shall temporarily be placed again that the prior is again two days one day what whatever that is and it's funny the one down below says within two days you take it off under G and you go up to F it's 7 days after the event I know one's a banner and one is not a banner one is a freestanding sign but one is two days after one's seven days after maybe because banners are more offensive they're bigger I don't really know but prior for certain and it would be better to me that they would all be consistent within 3 days they got to be down or two days and prior x amount for because we had that earlier in this in

yeah earlier we talked about three days they have to be done so you know so again the freestanding sign on on the poll or the the freestanding sign all other districts again is is saying it without trying to say it's a real estate sign more you know that's what it is seven days um and then again and then again F talks about example real estate sign shall be uh removed within 7 days after the property sold lease or rented a sign uh you know a sign for an on-site sales event shall be removed within 7 days after the event. So again trying to give those examples the banner sign is 2 days and that again that's typically because again what is the event? The event is [clears throat] um

cowboy Christmas not in our town but I'll I'll use it cuz they're coming up. Uh so the event is cowboy Christmas that is the time frame. Uh so that is the prior to the event and then so it's up x amount of days prior to said event and then they just we can give them more time. We just don't want ultimately in the end we want to shorten those banner signs simply because those are let's be honest the cheaper made cheaply looking signs so we want to just shorten that down. Is two days enough? Probably not. Maybe extend it out. We can extend it to seven just so we're consistent. That'd be fine by me. I'd rather not. But I I'd rather not either. I like the two. I I thought two days after an election, you should have your signs done and two days after the house sells get your sign down, right?

Yeah. I want to see it shorter than longer, but that's just kind of prior something prior as we discussed. I don't know what that answer is. All right. Um I can noodle on this one. Maybe extend it out to maybe five days. That that gives enough time because usually these banner signs, Lisa, they're they're down pretty quick, aren't they? So would you say about usually after two day? Yeah. A day or two. Yeah. So they're down. We just again the real estate signs a little bit tougher simply because you're you're putting them into the ground and then some guy's got to come and pick it out or unless you were me and I took mine out as soon as they clos the sale because I didn't want the sign up anymore. [laughter] So

that was all I had on 23. And am I correct that A-frame is only allowed in uh commercial zoning districts? Yes, that's yeah only only in in all commercial zoning districts. And this was one we had a they're not allowed in residential districts.

No. And it's [clears throat] fairly rare that we'll see them in in residential districts. Usually you you may see them in associated with uh the schools. That'd be the one sort of caveat or a church. Um, which again we [clears throat] we can also make sure that the PI is covered in there. Now that I'm really thinking about it, so we'll we'll make sure the public zones I was thinking of uh at the the church down here where they have their food program. They usually have an a sign A-frame sign set up out there, but it's just for the day,

right? And the food program is is uh is SNAP and other government sort of funded which is now covered from exempt. So again, we're just really trying to make sure we cover our basis to make sure that th those type of things are are exempt. Okay. I've got a couple things on 24 if we're there. I don't know. We're there.

Um I know what we're trying to do here in the A-frames. Um, I was against ever allowing A-frames, but I lost that one also, so I'm fine with that. Um, so I know that what you're what we're trying to do is saying the the when you look at G really gets into the meat of it, um, under under the G at the top, it's after 30 days, then the verbiage needs to change to something else. And then I guess after 30 days, you can go back to the verbiage you had before 30 days. and every you could just keep doing two of them throughout the year. I I think it's going to be really tough to to enforce that. I know what we're trying to do to not just have it look like it's a permanent one. And I like that we it c it has to go in. I disagree with five o'clock because right now the sun went down at five and there are restaurants open and it says the earlier five o'clock or earlier sunset or the business closing it ought to be the later sunset or the I don't but certainly when the business closed now you can't illuminate them but there's lots of lights out there on the sidewalks that that people can still see those happy hour signs or or soup signs whatever it is. We'd be happy to eliminate it just to make it easiness. I mean, again,

I do. Yeah. It's we just don't want them out at night. Yeah. This is this is the first cut and I as I've said to our council um and I'll say it to y'all. Um you know, we're not going to get it right the first time. Well, we got to we got to we got to let it start. We got to let it cook and figure [laughter] out the the spice content.

No. And uh if we don't get it right the first time, then we may need to dial it down or may need to dial it up, but we got to got to give it one crack first. So, um I understand I I think the intention was that we didn't want A-frame signs in the dark and then someone hitting it and so but close a business. I mean, obviously, you know, sun went down pretty early today, um as it's winter now and so um yeah, close a business is just as good. So,

okay. Um, under banner signs, number two, um, we go down to they're allowed, one per business, [snorts] 20 square ft. It's very large, 2 ft by 10 ft, very large. Um, location on a structure, not to be located above the first story or on a roof. Um, shall not be placed on a fence. It's the time of display. So, it's a maximum of seven consecutive days up to twice a year in the VMU district. So, and then if you look up the definition of what a sign is, it's anything that you want it to be. And so, I use a an example of Denmark Square. And you've got I put a banner up that says now open. Then I move it over to the next one. Now open. I go this next one. Now open. We just keep doing it around until we get seven consecutive days till it loops me twice and there's 15 shops. I just think it's excessive. I I don't know how we what what the better thing is, but I just it just banners again. I I can't believe that we're really allowing banners on businesses. I know what they're designed to do. Having a sale. So the shoe store has a sale twice a year and it's up for seven days. Outside it's 14. Makes sense. It can be abused where that sign because it doesn't have to say sale. It can just say open come visit. Then I just give it to my neighbor and the neighbor and the neighbor and the neighbor and the neighbor and we just have these banner signs up all the way around. I'd rather have it say something like and maybe we can't control content

sale. No. Or special event. No, it just it just it can say anything because you look in definition sign. It can say anything we want to say. Now open come visit the square. And we just keep passing that thing around and around.

That's content. And we don't we're we're already So the problem is right now with our banner signs is one, it doesn't even limit. There is no time duration. It allows it, believe it or not. It's there but it's it's basically it's some convoluted 10 days before opening 5 days after opening at less than four square ft and then can be done if this is this special. It's it's completely convoluted whereas this is much easier to enforce. Now could we make it smaller than 20 square ft? We most certainly most certainly can um with 10 you know

we can make it extremely performance-based. So again by performance space meaning if you're in 50 50 square 50 linear feet is pretty much the cut off. So one we can change it to where it says number of signs one per business or property or one per property. So then now you're really beginning to limit like hey man sorry you can't pass it out. It's one per property. Um two is you we can go down you know 20 square ft we can bring it down to 16. Um 12 is the lowest you should probably go for these things. Um but again, we're really just trying to strike this balance of we don't get many banner signs. The most times we actually get asked for banner signs. And correct me if I'm wrong, Lisa. That's typically when a business wants to open up

or close. Those are typically the only times we have probably maybe I can count on my hand the number of times someone has asked for a banner sign for like a special sale, but it's mainly just revolving around those two items. is now granted we have had a certain business that's had an extended amount of uh band of signs closing sale [laughter] hence again time place manner um which we which adds us so I'm if you you know 20 was a number that originally it was down to 16 then we put it to 20 I mean you know we can go either or um you know I just like them smaller I mean yeah 16 16 is now you're at the 4x4, right?

Um, and again, we can keep it at 20 and say if it's between if you're over 50, you can get 20. Uh, if you're under 50, hey, you can you got to go down to to to 12 or 16. There you go. I like that. And I I like the idea of per property also, unless you find some pitfall with that. that would take care of the

the only thing with per property is if one person has a sale twice a year and he's used up the entire properties, you know, then you get into how come he got it twice or she got it twice and so I I get that. It's just to me it was an awful lot and then they were so big and and the thing about the size too, if we think about our community, this isn't we don't have a freeway running through town where you've got to have something that massive to catch it. things are going kind of at a pedestrian pace here, even if you're in a car. So, I don't know that you need a great size to draw that level of advertising.

We can tighten it up. Um, we could definitely break it out a little bit further um and take a look through our GIS what our linear feed is and then just do a quick query and then try to come up with obviously anything under 25 you go down to 12. Again, we're really just trying to make sure you expand the space out. Um and then obviously 32 square feet it we're really looking at Neielson's and right and and uh the merkantiel and then out you know those are big but I'll be happy to come up with performance standards based on this you know conversation and um amend as needed. So

my my last one on 24 is maybe I'm just not following it. Um permanent signs at the very bottom. Um permanent signs are going to be your your your your blade signs are going to be your wall signs. They're going to be your ground sign. I so I'm not really following that. The maximum signage size allowed should be 20 square feet. By the way, same as the banner total 20 the maximum. It's not per sign square feet or the one square foot per lineal. Whichever is less, was it not whichever is more?

Yeah. No, it wasn't that's the DRC did want the less. And again, it comes back to at that point now you're really beginning to just pick and choose what you want. Um, do you want a very large ridiculous that that they I mean and look they that's what they recommended. That's fine.

It does and that's where the sign program comes in and that's again it it's it's basically it's a I call it the choose your own adventure map. And so um there's the easy way. You can do it this way and call it a day or if you really want to go out there at gusto and you're very adamant then we'll give you a path out. Um it just it's you'll have to ask for the exceptions. Um so again we're we're

yeah I I to me I it should be on we use this linear frontage so that there's a increase if you're bigger and you're decreased if you're smaller which makes perfectly good sense. I know it's subjective that a very small shop could would come in and go, I want I want 20 square feet of signage and I've only got X amount of of L feet. I got my or I got my 20 ft so I can have my 20 square feet so I match it on both.

And then you've got someone like again Copen House, Kahuna, um the big the big guys in in town that 20 square feet. None of these signs I I could walk you up and down the street, none of them are going to meet it. You're never going to get those again. 20 is nothing. It's is seven square feet. Eight square feet signs. That's two and a half of them. That's all that's all that a place can ever have is two and a half signs. An eight and an eight and a four. Done. And again, that's where the sign program allows in the asking for the exceptions. And that's I know, but man, now you got to appeal and we know how those go and you appeal. I I'm just I'm just surprised that DRC went from

to know the exceptions would would go to the DRC, right? They wouldn't be over the counter, right? Of course, they go to DRC and then it goes to planning and then it goes to city council and so we so we can do is we can flag this and then bring it to city council and then um I mean I I see the argument for it as well. Um usually as you have the larger linear footage you go up. That's what it's

which usually it's always been. Um you have certain members in the DRC that want to keep it small. Um and I'm not doubting their judgment. I just um I don't know if any of them have businesses in town and realize that 20 square feet is not a lot for these large Burkholmes bakery. I mean an eight an eight and a four, you know. Uh it's just it's they're solving Bruco. I mean these are these are big and these apply to hotels. I'm assuming hotels aren't exempt. There's not one hotel sign that's under 20 square feet in this town. So if they ever change names, it's gone. They're they're they're they're not conforming any longer.

Well, the structure I take the cork for instance. The cork went out of business and um the sign structure is there and they're just changing the face of the sign. This new ordinance says face changes off you go. So a name change, business change is okay. You get a what it is. Well, you know, as an individual, I'll go to city council and say 20 is ridiculous. Win that or I won't win that.

And and again, that's fine by us and then we could go back a little bit and start accepting things out where we say, okay, well, if you're going to use a blade sign, suspended sign, that's exempted from it. If you're going to use uh a if you're going to use awning sign, that's also exempt. Okay. Well, now what's left? So, [laughter] there's there's various ways to slice it. We we can most certainly bring this to the city council attention.

Well, and I know that there's an example of the new shop that went in town, which they have, you know, four or five signs, maybe six signs because they went, "Oh, I'll just do a bunch of small ones." And this eliminates that because what are you going to do 10 that are two square feet? I mean, we we can do that. It's going to be cluttered and it's going to look ridiculous. And so, it's got to be that that's another big shop in town. And so, there's some really large shops in town that that um the shoe store. I mean, my gosh, 20 square feet, it's really not a lot. But anyway, that's it is what it is. That's just I'm just voicing my

And the other the other way is is is 20 square feet, one square feet per line, a maximum of 40. I mean there's there's a ton of ways we can slice this. Correct. So correct. All right. Correct. So then it the bigger you are you can go up to that and the smaller is is that. So we will we'll it's just not one size fits all is my point. We'll do more analysis but [laughter] your your point is taken on there. Okay. Moving on. 25 and can I ask 25 C obviously at the top. Is that a multi-ten? Is that a directory? Is that what that is?

No, it's just it's simply trying to allow again this is one way of um trying to solve a riddle for some of our centers that we have in the downtown. Okay.

Um allowing sort of this additional signage through a sign program. And so um you know we that's that's been a bone of contention is well we're all the way in the back. They can't see us. How do we get people there? Well, you you chose where you wanted to rent, but um again, it's it's just trying to figure out how we can do a multi-tenant, you know, get some sort of sign program that allows for direct just that directory sign, but in a much more tasteful manner.

No, that I I No, I get it. Um because the next page has the directory sign. The very next page has directory signed with the definition. And I'm just wondering, are we being redundant? Is this multi-tenant signage? Seems like that's a directory and we're allowing one lineal square foot. It's a little bit different per storefront frontage. So again, if if that's the case, if I've got 30 lineal feet, I could have 30 square feet of signage, but I can't because I can't do it here. But here, if it's a multi-tenant, I can. Or is it the directory can be that big?

It's again, it's just more again, it's entering into a sign program, which is trying to add a little bit more creativity. So you got you got to remember that the sign program is your ultimate sort of passcode to unlock creativity. So you're not locked in to the standards that are sitting in there. Okay.

And so while you can have a directory sign you, yeah, you can have that all day long. Um but then maybe you want to do a painted wall sign with that has a directory on it that's pretty large. And so again, just trying to be more creative with um the multi-tenants to try to get them to unify under one sign versus what's kind of being done right now is and I don't want to name names, but [laughter] This might be a better way to sort of help and alleviate that situation. Got it. That was it on 25. Okay. I I have nothing on 26.

I have nothing on 26. I thought it was redundant with directory and multi-tenant. I couldn't understand it. Sorry. Nothing on 27 either.

Um 27 and I could be wrong and not reading it correctly. It's monu monument sign. If we go into the special requirements box, um I I think that it would be clearer if it would didn't say it said monument sign. Instead of freestanding signage under A and under D and under E, unless I'm not understanding it. Uh, no. That's that again was a l was a monument sign that I I will take my air and my lashings for not making sure those are changed out that they should they should read monument for all of them. So,

and then the the other thing is the the sign the bottom box is that is called out the display case. Can a can a menu go in that? Is that what that is? Yes, that's that's the intention of it. Yeah. But again, we can't call it menu. Yes, [laughter] but you can. It's a display. Okay. It's very much a display case. What it displays, I don't know. Usually a menu. [laughter] Yes,

that is absolutely fine. And just a clarification, if somebody wanted to put a window that opens from the outside that is a um what do you call it? A boxed window, but you can't get to it because it's got a a sheer panled wall that you can't go in. You wouldn't call it a sign. you go to the DRC and get approval for a window that's exterior, that's a display window that has a locking key. I mean, I I don't Right. It wouldn't be considered a sign. Yeah, that's not considered a sign. And it doesn't even go to DRC anymore. It goes to us first. [laughter] So, Got Yeah. I mean, it's Yeah. Again,

that's facads. Those are different. We're we're talking pure signs here. Like in this instance, a display case. And I think we had one uh recently. for forget which one that wanted this. Park. Parkplace. Yeah, Parkplace had a display sign yet we didn't technically have the regs for it. Don't ask. It's there now. [laughter] So, I get it.

Okay. 28. 28. I'm I'm curious as to under the box at the top and the box at the bottom where it says number of signs permitted. You can only have one of the window letterings. You can only have one of these hanging suspended sides. That's that's I'm reading that correct. You are correct. But so let's take same with the wall sign on the Well, that that gives you one on the next page. It gives you one per public street frontage, but this is just one and one. So you can't have two of those. And yeah, we want them mixed up,

right? So, we want them to one. And the other uh issue here is um with the window sign and and we want to make sure you under special requirements that the window sign a permanent window lettering can extend to multiple windows. Correct. Has to be one pane. It's only 25% or whatever the numbers are. Yeah. Makes sense. So, that is something I just now I'm really thinking through because again, if you're going to do it and you extend it out, we should be able to extend it out to Windows. So, we just want to clarify that it could be on multiple windows, but it'll be counted as one sign.

Then the the only thing on on the bottom of that page, which corresponds over to um the wall signs, is something that Brian Schneider brought up, 805 signs. I've talked to him many times about quarter inch or half inch thickness on lettering. And his argument was the shadowing. you get to a half inch and the if you have a sign you have a light over it it it kind of disappears a quarter inch he believes is is good and we over on on wall sign we do say quarter inch under D but on this one we say under B half inch um depth and one is a bigger sign than the other one I mean that'll either be consistent but he's argued with me that quarter inch looks better from a a lit sign with all the shadowing that goes in even with the sun down and things like that. But I don't know why they picked quarter and a half as differences signs

and in fact the wall signs much bigger. Yeah, Brian did make this argument for the projecting signs of letter depth and that's in your blue folder. Um type of sign should be top letter depth of 1/2 should be one quarter to match the wall sign specs plus carving out. And we did have this discussion with Brian um at DRC. he he was generous enough uh to lend his um eyes to our signed ordinance uh and reviewing it as as someone who works in the industry. Um so I I typically when it comes to that I I defer to someone in the industry who knows what they're doing and so more than likely we'll we'll probably take this into pretty good consideration as part of the next iteration.

That's I figured it was a yeah slip up or something. Who knows? I have nothing else on that. Um I'm a little worried about the mural on page 30 as as we spoke earlier. Yeah, we'll bet go back to 29 again under definition of a mural. Shouldn't that be in the definition section? I know you have mural defined, but this after reading this and what you have in definitions, I think this is a much better definition of a mural.

The mural should match. Yeah. So, that one they'll they'll we'll re we'll make sure the murals match definition wise that uh 113. Just take B out of here and put it into the definitions. Yeah. And that's just as good. So, because I thought this was a good definition.

Yeah. And again, this is uh a little bit uh PTSD from both Dave Fleshman and I. Uh Dave's not here. I know Taylor's on the line, but um you know, Dave had a a sign uh mural go completely sideways as as have I um in two municipalities um that I formerly work at. So, a lot of it is leading up to PTSD and really what it comes down to is really trying to shield those of you up here um and let us take the hits and cover on that because again it it's so subjective. So, we just want to really just keep it to the box. Uh but we'll bring this to city council's attention.

Okay. 30. Nothing. Uh I have a question under where it says review authority D. It says with the standards in subsection which sub section

uh plug that hole to make sure it's a standard of subsections um with a standard in in this it should read in this section. So, which would be 111310B. Oh, yeah. No, 11310B1 which is murals. So, that's what it should be. And uh under uh the standards uh does this apply anywhere in the city? Yes.

Residential, commercial, industrial, wherever somebody wants to put up a mural. As long as they meet these requirements, they can. Yes. Because I I have seen where people have turned their garage into a mural. Yes, there's one right up the street. There's one up the street. Looks good. Yeah. I I happen to like it, but a lot of people don't. But uh that's PTSD. That's the whole [laughter] point, right? 31. Um, I keep looking at Aaron. Bill, do you, you know, speak up. I

Oh, I I will. I'm listening. You guys have been very thorough and I truly appreciate Aaron's business perspective as he looks at this from both sides. You have a large building and perhaps you're being restricted or something could be a nuisance because there are too many. So, I'm I'm actually learning a lot and listening. So, thank you both. It's because we're been doing it forever, right? Yeah. Um 31. We're back to the freestanding sign. Yes. The true freanding sign on to be confused with the monument sign. Yeah.

Maximum sign area. This is the four square feet. I get it. The height is five. Perfect. Um lower edge is three. That's I mean it just works out. The number is the question I have. None for properties with less than 50 lineal feet. Is it properties or is it businesses or tenants? Sometimes we interchange those um those words.

So, this is a new cut. The DRC's not seen this. So, you are the first one to see this. Um again, based on sort of the review of the three meetings and really trying to make see what's out there, what we got. This is a tough one because again, this is my first cut at this is is really I don't want to name names, but we have certain properties that uh certain business owners want to have this type of signage and they want them at uh the both public entries that are available. So, if you do it per business, you start multiplying then buy that

by that versus if you do it per property, we're just saying, hey, we're we're going to cap you. And the reason 50 is chosen is we don't have many properties with a 50ft linear frontage. So what we're trying to avoid is if you're a business, small business and you don't have the 50 ft, you don't get this because you you don't really need it. Um we're really trying to capture those businesses that are have a deeper sort of lot depth or so hence why that the 50 says you can't none. So 50 to 100 in looking at our GIS, we we have quite a few there where these are already at. And so we want to limit those to to just say, "Hey, look, if you're in the 50 to 100, you get one." So landlord, you need to figure this out. We're not going to figure it out for you. You all need to figure this out. And then at the greater than 100 linear feet, which we have a couple of them, and again, these are these are both. So, if you're corner corner lot like the Copenhagen house, you you know, you'll you'll have this. You'll be able to do it no problem. Which kind of makes sense. The larger the lot, the bigger the more you're going to be able to get this done. But the reality comes back to we don't want a proliferation of these on our smaller properties and business. So, hence why one it says property versus business and two was really analyzing what we actually have out there in terms of linear frontage. I'm not married to this. This is my first cut, but this is just trying to really think this through.

It makes makes sense. You're um and it wouldn't matter. So, use a business anywhere they um you get one. You say you've got 55 ft. It could be either for the building or it could be for an individual business. Again, it's up to the landlord, the business guy. If it's the same building and business, peasants feast, well, then there's no arguments. But if it's the other way, then there is and you got to figure it out because you're only getting one, right? So, and that's that's the great thing about it because in one particular property that I'm thinking of, they got two right next to each other, right? And third one and a third one on the other side. Okay. Well, and two of them sit in planters that are bolted to the ground and

god they look ugly. And so, [laughter] it's just why not solidify that? give them a little bit larger space than what was originally allowed, but say, "Hey, look, if you can share and divide, be our guest." But one, put it in a permanent base. Two, put it at a height, max it out. No additional signage, no additional arrows, no nothing. Um, again, and then here figuring out how does this play into the extra 20 ft. Um, it may be exempted, it may not. So, we we need to figure that out as well. So, again, this is more of a first cut. Um, and just trying to get some sort of feedback on this one.

And if we go back to page 27, outdoor display case sign. There's another 2 by two. It's four square feet. I'm thinking of a building that has three restaurants. You could each have one of those. It's the freestanding sign that is limited by the lineage. That is correct. And so and that's that's an opportunity here again with our deeper properties that have multi-tenants of three or four or five. It's the opportunity to maybe they don't do a menu sign in sign. Maybe they instead do a directory saying these three businesses are back here. Yeah.

Cool. Fantastic. Great. That's one way of solving that issue. Um but again this is first cut. Be happy to to get some some feedback on this but there is a little bit of rhyme and reason to it. Yeah. No, it it does make sense. I think that this is just a observation. The picture looks like it's a menu sign. And so I'm reading I'm going, "Wait, is that the menu sign?" So just make it blanked out because it's like there's two columns with prices, I think. I'm not sure. No, [laughter] because that's I thought that and then I thought, "Oh my gosh, you're going to have that that one square that has them." And they're like, "Wait a minute. We get all our menu signs per per restaurant." Well, you do. Yeah. Over on this other um display case.

Yeah. can blank it out and just put sign right in the middle so people know to sign. So that's all I had on 31. Okay. 32. Um I I I missed it under the hanging signs. Um but it caught me because I just w it out and put hanging. We you guys changed hanging I think to 8 ft. Yet still we still have umbrellas and awnings at seven. Yeah,

seven. And Brian mentioned that in his also that it's sometimes hard with eight, nine foot plates. You got to get eight. You can't get a hanging sign and is seven. I always thought seven was kind of our standard, but you know, a door is 68. So, I think that's what we So, this one I just need to ping our building official just to make sure we're hitting minimum vertical clearance. That's what it comes down to. So, um I set it to eight because eight's sort of that industry standard. Um, and I noticed that we are already low and I'm like, "Oh, they should really be eight." Cuz again, in my walking Copenhagen, I can extend my arm out and grab one of those signs really easy. I don't want to be able to do that. Um, but again, Brian does bring up a point. We do have some lowanging lower hanging that are there. So,

um, and again, these are for new signs. These are things we need to remember. So, stuff that's there, you're interchanging, it's existing, non-conforming, and we leave it. We leave it as is. It's it's what we're looking for when you're doing a remodel or new buildings. Now, now you got to come into conformance. So, but still, let me check in with the building official on that one. Can on 32 at the bottom I again you explained um you have a non-conforming sign and you so under non-conforming sign AB um two this is non-conforming signs are allowed if you change your face changes on a non-conforming that's okay but then under C number one it says however pro prohibited modifications. If you change to another non-conforming sign, it's prohibited. Well, you are changing it from one non-conforming to another one. By changing the face, it's still non-conforming. We need to be I don't know it maybe change to another non-conforming sign, comma, except for face changes as noted above or except for the stuff noted one, two, and three. Does that make sense?

Yeah, change another non-conforming sign for the exception of section B. That's really what it is because again we don't want to change it. You don't want non one non-conforming sign and then just change to nothing. No. So we don't Yeah. Then anything for 33 as we begin to uh nothing on 33 for me anyway. Um can I 34 question?

Yeah, go ahead. Way at the bottom directory sign. A sign less than eight square feet that directs pedestrians visitors to tenants. That's Yeah, we want that's the definition. Yeah, we want to strike that. The eight square feet just says a sign that directs pedest Yeah. number 36 direct where it says 18 square feet. Yeah, eight square feet. Yeah, got it. Thank you. on 35. I don't know if it needs to be done, but under event definition, maybe we call it a special event throughout, maybe we ought to call that special event and not just event, but that's just to be consistent.

So there's two types of events. There's there's the event that connects to limited duration signage, which is really what this is pointing to. So again, set start date. So whether it's a garage sale, open house, etc. Special events, a whole different ball game. So this is the federal holiday stuff and elections. Yeah. Yeah. So, whereas event is actually more so I've put my house on the market. Yeah. Putting my house on the market is the event. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. Thank you.

Can Did we ever address or we can't how many flags you can have? The flag ordinance isn't changing. So, that's already been addressed and already done. Um we've kind of gone through that. We're not touching the flag ordinance at this point. Um there are a few properties still that are out of whack with our ordinance. So we that is on our to-do list for 2026 bringing in lines under this definition. A corporation flag is fine. That's a So yeah. So that's going to be stricken out. Apologize.

Yeah, because we're going to take some [clears throat] of that out, right? Yeah. The Guinness one or whatever I put out Carlsburg. I don't I don't have anything else. Neither do I. I'm good, too.

All right. Well, again, thank you uh council or commission for the feedback. It was is much welcome. And and we're beginning to be at the finish line and I I know this has been a big push for a lot of folks. Um but your feedback means a lot. um especially coming from from all y'all. So, really appreciate it. Okay. So, uh there's no action or anything we have to take on this?

No, not at this point. Yeah, we'll we'll uh recue some of these and uh tee it up and then we'll take your comments, do a little bit more finessing, and then take it to council with a couple of considerations based on what Commissioner Peterson mentioned. Okay, moving on to item seven. Planning commissioners comments that nothing. The only thing I have is echoing what Jack said earlier and the appreciation of staff. We had to get it started somewhere. My gosh. You know, I know it's been a long time coming, but it's hard to get in and I'm looking at the old one and the new one. I'm doing this, you know, for about a day and a half.

Oh my gosh. You know, and I have some of it memorized, some of it not. So, I know what you guys went through to do that in the middle of also other jobs that you have. So, appreciate it. No, and it's it's been good. I mean, I know Lisa's does a lot of our signs and I think on Friday, uh, we had a question from an applicant and I'm like, "Hey, use the new graphic [laughter] because that explains it to a te exactly what we're what we're using." So, um, because the the definition didn't change, so we went ahead and used the new graphic for that. And following up on that, you're I know you mentioned it, design guidelines. We're going to that that's going to be tough too, isn't it? It is and uh you know Lisa's spearheading that and I have an update in regards to that. So, okay,

I would just echo well done folks. I know it's a lot of work and a lot of detail and and you're taking some risks there and I think it's worthwhile. So, thank you very much. Okay, item eight, community director report.

All right. Thank you. So, uh, city council, just as many of you know, upheld your decision on 1704 mission. So, uh, just a quick update of where we're at. The applicant did request a lifting of the existing stop work. Um, however, we did inform them of the plans that needed to be submitted per our letter and, uh, and review work that's beyond the scope of the permit. So, that's where we're at right now. Um, we're really looking forward to work with the applicant and and get this items resolved and continue moving forward with uh, fining out construction of that uh, project. um because overall it it is a good project for the city and uh you know we are looking forward to that. Um city council will be moving forward to adopt the 2025 California building code at its November 24th 2025 meeting. I know that didn't go to you um but we are um part of we are at the end of our uh tri triannual cycle. Um there's one sort of caveat to that is our our residential um there was a new state law uh passed as a part of the budget that freezes uh residential building code updates. So this will be the last one of those that you'll see for the next six years. So um it kind of gives a lot more certainty moving forward. Um so which is great. Um we will be having a December meeting. I know there was some questions of that and that is to discuss short-term rentals. So um that's we're currently at the finish line on that one. um which is fantastic. Um that is now in for review at the city attorney's office. The city attorney, I know Taylor's looking at it. Um but hopefully we'll get that into ordinance format. It's based on the recommendations of just limiting our uh short terminals into the village only and then carving out if you had an exist if you have a R3 um and you have an existing permit um you'll be able to apply for one with some caveats and exceptions. But again, that'll be coming to you for recommendation and we'll have that in ordinance format. Um, and as a part of that, we're actually going to beginning our begin our enforcement of our ordinance since there's no path forward at this point for folks that are

operating short-term rentals outside of the village. So, um, letters will be going out at the end u by midmon informing them that they need to um cease uh their their operations. Um, speaking of uh we are moving along with the administrative draft, the design handbook. Um, so we're actually hoping for um either a December or January to bringing that to the DRC very similar to what we did here is we'll bring it to DRC first. Um, get some sort of feedback, re re-edit, reit it down and then bring it to you for that sort of second check-in on feedback and then bring it to city council and then we'll re-reverse it out back to everybody. Um, so um, Lisa's been uh doing that and she's I'm the one now that's behind. But I'm sorry, Lisa, that I need to review that. Um, but we are looking to get that done, uh, here at the latter end of this year and at the beginning of next year. And then, um, speaking of the sign ordinance, it either returned either in January, uh, to this body or in February. So, we don't know quite yet where we're going to land with the city council. U, uh, but after, uh, we get input from the council, um, we'll, this will come back to you. And it'll actually come in two forms. One is the ordinance format, but also a sign handbook. So, we'll be working. So, whatever comes out from the city council, that's what we'll put into the handbook, which will be a much more reader friendly, easier to use, incorporate some of the graphics that we're already doing. And so, that way we it's it's a finished product that everyone gets to see, and then uh everyone now starts playing on the same rules. Um, and then finally, we we uh bless uh Cole Phillips in our public works department. Um, he recovered uh two goats that were roaming the street. So if you are missing any goats, they are at the animal shelter in Santa Maria. Um so

goats eating eating vegetation. [laughter] Wish we could um we don't know where they came from. So they were just roaming the streets. So uh had some goats eating stuff on the [laughter] field over there. So they're little goats. They're little goats. So they're little guys. So, if you're missing any goats and you're watching, go call animal services and hopefully we'll we'll re reunite you with your goats. Can I ask you two questions? The the until the design review handbook gets changed. This is going to happen sooner than that. I mean, the design review handbook is still the Are you talking the design guidelines? Yes, the guidelines. I'm sorry.

Yes, that's in place. That is very much in place. that actually has to go through a repeal. Um, so essentially what will end up happening is once we dial in the handbook, we come to this the DRC for recommendation, the planning commissioner recommendation, and the city council will adopt and then repeal the old guidelines. The old one stays in place until correct. Yeah. So, and the last question, um, the the stop work order on on the St. George property, I don't even know the address, 1704. Was that because of the design or was that because of some other structural things?

So in the interior there's a substantial amount of work that deviated from the approved permit in the interior in terms of the floor plan. Um also on the exterior flat work it it deviated particularly when it comes to storm water drainage. So what a lot of people don't understand is storm water drainage is heavily integrated into the amount of what's called impervious surface. And so the minute you start adding impervious surface that really changes the calculus of your drainage and it may trip you into doing additional um uh le features or other sort of underground work that needs to get done to retain the storm water. So it's actually a bigger deal than meets the eye. Um, so that was mainly the main trip up was the ADA, the the the other storm water and the other sort of interior work where you can't, you know, run an inspection and then the inspection essentially becomes a correction of either demo what you're doing and put it back to what it's supposed to be or go revise your plans and tell us what it actually is and we'll inspect for what it actually is. So that that's where we're at.

That's where it's at. That is where it's at. Okay. I do have a question related to that project. Um because the project is scaled um are is the developer still having to meet uh building codes, door heights and such. So a lot of folks uh there were questions about the door heights. Um there are actually two doors. People don't realize that there's the main entry door which is actually to code

usually in the back where you can't see it. Yeah. And so that that's the and that's part of the issue with the floor plan is those doors were never called out whether they were ingress egress. And so these these technically can't be ingress egress doors. So they got to figure that out. And and so um you know but there was that comment of well that's not even up to code. No it is. There's just the main entrance is on the side that is actually to code and done per plan. Glad to hear that. Yeah. Okay. Nothing else. Okay. We're adjourned at 854.

7:54.