Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Driving a car. It used to be. What turn? It's so small. Don't know.

They had a you you right across me.

Sorry. I'm really no rules.

Yeah. Because you can be Yeah. You can

walk real quick. You know? But how do I get where

that runs out your project. You want to be a partner

with that.

Are you for not to go Really? Investment. Yeah. Startup.

Yeah. Great Salt Lake. I'm doing a partnership with a startup on a lithium mining thing

up there. Nice.

It's it's insane. How are the environmentalists treating you? Really good. Is there the technology they're using is gonna fling the lake, pull out the arsenic, every bad thing. But then they put the water 99.5% of that. So there's suspended solvents, good and bad. But they can they have technology to percolate it out and get it out, and they sell off all the rare earth

Sand mix. I'm sure right there.

Right.

And then they put that salt back in it. Uh-huh. And then put it back in the lake at whatever pH they. You know? And they only need 300,000,000.

It's okay. We've we've had for that. That seed money can drop. Yeah. But So are you the one that's packaging greater

than this? No. No. It's it's funny because they were talking with the shit. Fine couple of finance companies, and all of them said we don't do anything under 500,000,000. Only

Recording in progress.

My fear is there's one organization that will do it and fund it. It just happens to be China. You know? Uh-oh. And I don't that's it. I'm out. I'm not real sound.

Who did I I just kicked out of my mouth?

Yeah. Where is this?

Just on the Great Salt Lake. Oh,

quite a bit. There's lithium all over in the Great Salt Lake.

Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of other scabbium and a lot of other precious rare earth minerals. And it's concentrated because of the way the, like, the dead lake nest Also settle there. Yeah. Settles there. But it's it's on the bottom. It's suspended in the water. It's everywhere. It's on the shoreline. Added to it. Their tailings. They put it all back. You know, they didn't blend that out. So they had had fractions. Yeah. Yeah. And their tailings.

So are they are they pulling that out?

No. No. They don't have the technology.

Okay. So while you're aiming, I was gonna start with this presentation. And what it's about is detached accessory dwelling units. And what I'm hoping to do during this work session is to get some feedback from our commission about preferences of what you would like to do because there's certain things that we have to do because there is a new state law passed about detached accessory dwelling units. There's other things that we have discretion that maybe we could make it, you know, more broad as and not as limited, etcetera.

So I'm gonna go through that. I'm gonna you know, Darian before had given you a really good outline about the new legislation. This is in senate bill two eighty four, which had a lot in it. One part that is significant is detached accessory dwelling units. So I'm just gonna briefly go over the requirements, and then I have a number of slides and illustrations of pictures to solicit feedback on generally what our commissioners would like to see.

So that's the layout. A new state law, it's senate bill two eighty four. It requires cities to allow detached accessory dwelling units. We have already have our apartments allowed to them as interior or attached basement apartments, etcetera, and we've had that for quite a while. But now for the detached, because we don't allow them currently.

Internal ADUs are permitted now, such as basement apartments, but the detached ADUs, we don't allow. But the new state law requires that all cities, virtually all cities throughout the state, very pure, excluded. It to allow them as a permitted use on residential lots, 11,000 square feet or greater. It's effective on October 1. So after this, you know, potentially, if need be, I can come back and get some more inform informal feedback from you.

But, potentially, I could get your feedback, and then we craft code, and then we go through an adoption process. So some of the basics of the new state law requirements is that we must allow them on these floors of those where they're larger, when they this lot already has a single family home, and, also, it's in a residential zone.

Do we know any lots or

11,000 or more? I have

a map that that'll show you an illustration. It'd be interesting to

see the percentage of home.

So it's basically just a quarter acre. Yep. Yeah. So they

have to be a quarter acre. That's not very good.

I have a map illustration, but I think I'll I'll do a more refined maps in the future, but that that's coming. You know? Some of the other basics of the requirements is that they must be permitted uses. We can't allow them only as a condition to use permit. They must meet at a minimum applicable building health and fire codes.

We can require additional parking for this, but it's limited to one parking space if the detached ADU is less than 650 square feet or two parking spaces, but no more if it is 650 square feet or greater. Can I ask a question about? Would it have any verification on on street or off street? Off street? No. It's off-site. Okay. You don't get to count them. Off street only.

Yeah. Yeah. We don't have to require it, but we may require it. Oh, okay.

But but this is the limit. Meaning, if I wanna require four new parking additional parking spaces for this detached ADU. The state law doesn't this is the maximum federal Gotcha. But they do allow for this. So the other thing is we can't regulate design elements, and there is a list of what the state law considers design elements. It applies to single family homes as well. However, it says it we can require the design to be consistent

with primary fall. If you have a three car garage for your house,

but you only require the two car for a typical home.

A two car garage and the and the driveway with the two, that's four total, which is our requirement.

Oh, I see. So you count driveway

part Mhmm.

Part Let's say, we didn't do that. Have a third drop already. Right. If You can count that.

Yeah. You can do it.

Potentially. Yeah. Mhmm. Yep. We have minimum dimensional standards, whether it's enclosed or unenclosed. But yeah. The state law, lastly, is that it states that we must provide a process for converting a legal accessory structure into a detached ADU. At a minimum, they have to meet setback requirements and compliance with building health and fireplace. Conversions are probably the most complicated in terms of potential administration and all that. But that'll be at the end.

We'll talk about that. So now let's see. I'll just go over some themes that were noted while we did some research. The majority of cities in our region already allow detached ADUs, but many and most of them require owner occupancy of one or the other.

How long for it, If you have a limit to

that, only two months or five months or all the year, because we've had this

with the so once that Steve they've gone, you know, during the

The owner occupancy is that that's your prime primary home?

The difference in the SIR is they have to be on the site for half

of the year.

Mhmm. And so this would be owner occupancy. Some of them are just saying it has to be you can only have I mean, it either has

to win one or the other after you own their own.

See, they both have.

But but some of the things too are that the oftentimes, cities prohibit a detached accessory dwelling to be a short term rental. Many of them also require or or only allow one ADU on a lot. So one internal or one detached, but you don't get two. These are just common themes just so that you have kind of an idea

of that.

No portable units or units on wheels are allowed. Many of them require at least one additional parking space. They also have to add a little bit of building and fire safety. Yeah. Is the short term rental considered thirty days or less?

A permanent foundation.

So if you've had a beneficial theater somewhere.

But then Okay. There would be potentially compatibility that would be considered. Depends on what is adopted. That's right. But That's that's right.

Lastly, some other common themes in our region are that let's see. Size limits, they do vary. You know, some are, you know, no more than a thousand square foot on a detached ADU. Some of them are a combination of a lot coverage in the rear yard, but also no greater than, let's say, 800 mill per feet. They also have size limits in relation to the primary dwelling so that it is accessory to subservient to the primary.

So it can't be any greater than the primary, or some of them say no greater than 50% of the primary dwelling. Pride limits can really vary. Some of them can be one story max or up to two stories or you know? And we can also regulate by number of stories in addition to a height limit in terms of the the height. 20 feet to the peak of the roof is another standard. So that just gives you an idea of what's going on. Some of the

Does it include the limitations of other structures in regards to mass and size of other

structures? You you can. You can.

She has something that

she'll cover on on lot coverage.

K.

It it does, but she'll cover that. She has something to talk about where you can only do

so much of your lot coverage Yeah. Between that

and other structures that you have. But a lot

of them That's what you're

there's also a science of other structures limit.

Yes. Yeah.

Yes. That one can get

mixed out fast.

They're mhmm. That yeah. That's true. Well, right now, our detox accessory structure, like, just for a shed, you know, is we have size requirement max for 25% of the room. Right.

Whichever is less. And so we can have a number of things when we're talking about size and also height where you may have a a minimum standard, but also it has to meet this standard, whichever is less. So that that'll come up. Some of the practices we do now for our internal ADUs, we would recommend doing similarly for detached ADUs. Just that detached ADUs, the state law says that the lot that we have to require on lots 11,000 square feet or greater.

We are are allowed you can decide, or your preferences as a commission could be well, we want them in all residential zones. Or let's say 8,000 square feet or larger. You know? And control the size

of you

based on

the property? We can we we could. So that

could $8.50 for 11,000 thousand per

Yeah. Or to or a lot coverage. You could do that. We'll get more into that. Some of the also that we do now that we would recommend that we do with detached ones is that it is a permitted use. We have a special use permit that they apply for, and it's over the counter. It doesn't go to the planning commission, but we do have a permit for it. We have

What for the internal?

A dollar 98.

All the fee you're asking what the fee is now Yep.

For an internal one?

I don't even know. Don't even even know. It's really not

You have to look it up. Okay. Yeah. It's not building permits or typically.

Oh, heck no. No. No.

The fee for that is evaluation. Yeah.

Okay. So clear and objective standards that we have now, and we recommend that there's no subjectivity. Owner occupancy is a requirement, and we recommend that we continue with that. And one address in utility meeting. So you can't have an additional right now with internal ADUs, our code clearly states you don't get an additional address, and you have to come off of the utility lines that you have. You can't have, like, a separate meter with another address because, basically, you're a duplex. The you're in r two zone. And

we Or

we're on

the risk of having all that subdivided through all the areas.

Exactly. It does open the door a desire potential for subdividing those lots. Now if some people want to see that then, then that's what you'd want to have is separate meters, separate addresses. But there's also the perspective of, no. We really don't wanna go down. We wanna allow them. We don't wanna subdivide them them up. Recorded acronym. That's one of our standard practices. So now questions.

And just to get a feel for what you guys are thinking, what you'd like to see. Where should we allow detached ADUs? Should they be allowed in all residential zones? So here's some of the the options, and I've got some pictures, and then we'll go back. So the law says we must allow them on lots 11,000 square feet or greater. You might consider or what? We have a lot of art one ten. What about 10,000 square foot or greater? Or what about all of our residential zones? But as long as they don't exceed a certain percentage of lot coverage because then it's commensurate with the size size of the lot and what else is on that property.

And so if we just we'll go back for your feedback, but I just wanna show you this map. This map shows in all residential settlements, lots that are 11,000 square feet or larger. Now this is kind of broad because it does include large Mhmm. Schools and parks and things like that. But it gives you Cemeteries. It's cemeteries. And we can refine that down for a

few years. On that. There are a lot they're already pretty dense. They're probably our most They're already accessory, Chris. This shows The subterranean.

The same things, but lots 10,000 square feet or greater. So just yeah. Just shows, kind of it's not

a huge difference, but there's incremental increase there as far as the number of homes that would be eligible.

I I would lean towards the it's on any lot as long as it meets those other requirements, the total coverage. Because you have some smaller lots that are gonna be perfect for this, and you have big lots that are gonna be terrible for this.

I And I think I would

look at the envelope of it rather than come in from this because you're gonna miss out on some great opportunities that homes are gonna have to do this. And and that limit, it's just I think it's too general of just throwing the square footage out there.

Yeah.

You know, land? Yeah. The land one. Yeah. I think it needs to

be a percent of coverage.

I that's I think. I I don't think we ought to

be careful when we get to the historic part of the city that we may not want to allow them in the historic area.

Well, it it depends if they have to match the

character character of Yeah. Exactly.

If it if it matches the character, I think.

Maybe so. Yeah. I think that's something.

Pretty awesome. I guess that's true.

You can't make them too big, so they would fit in smaller. So

You can put size limitations on it so that Yeah. The accessory dwelling unit is in fact ancillary to and smaller than the primary.

Yeah. I would I would want a big

You wouldn't want a big ADU that oversized or overpowers the the size of the existing halls.

Just thinking of the small little the storage would wanna be smaller.

That's Sure.

Is there a living?

How small? I'm just trying to think of one home so people can young people can come and live in.

Sick. Sounds like a good Sounds like a great deal of maintenance. Was it

the minimum?

No. That was regarding parking.

Oh, only regarding parking.

So if if your ADU is over 650 square feet, that that's the parking

So the law does not require any minimum square footage for they have then this new state law does not require us to add more parking. Period.

So But she's asking about square footings. For this.

Interesting. Okay. So they can't do a 150.

But these are these tiny homes. You know, they're they sound really, really small. No. And so two, three hundred square feet is not unusual for the type of home.

And then they're very of the Yeah.

I surrounding the damn thing will

giddy up. It is my opinion. You know?

Like, the ancillary and the percentage of black members. But beyond that, I I agree. Yeah.

I mean, my mother built a house in Park City that was eight fifty to be used

with all the time.

Yeah. So, I mean, eight fifth isn't that what they were saying? Eight fifty is like the snacks?

No. No. Just for the parking. No?

No.

But I just looked at it. You can you we

Go bigger.

Yes.

But they're recommending $8.50.

Don't know.

No. That's already nine. No. For the party. Oh. No. That that's $6.50. It's really hard, but we're jumping around because what I've done there's there's so many different aspects of this that if we just, you know, isolate right now and just get some feedback on certain things because we're gonna put this together later. And so it's much, much easier if we you know? And I know that it's like, well and if it's like, well, yes. But, you know, it depends on this. That's totally fine.

Well, I'm I'm withdrawn.

I think we ought to open

it up to all the lots Mhmm. And and, have it on a percent coverage. I don't know what that percentage is.

Don't worry about that right now. Don't worry. That, you know, depends on what coverage.

Paul and I, Corey.

We'll get to that part. That's her problem. I'm gonna use some Serbian for main

Size size, height, setbacks, all of it's coming later.

Yeah. Okay.

Right now, all I'm trying to get from you is where in the city should we even consider these? The state law requires us in residential zones to have 11,000 square foot lots or greater. Yeah. Maybe the commission wants it more.

You know? We do want more.

We want it everywhere.

I think we just yeah. Think we're That I mean, that's what it sounds like, but the quiet ones, I don't know if they're getting steamrolled or You're everywhere.

Okay. So there's one, two, three, four up. Steve

is worried. I I have worried you. I'm wondering what the citizens

as far as a residential Right. And our city council definitely has their opinions on

this. Yeah.

I've already asked them about these things. So and they will be more conservative than you.

I I

think But I don't wanna

They are.

Get into that. I wanna hear from you guys because you are

is to get out somewhere, we ought to allow it.

Everybody ought to have the

opportunity for this just because they don't own, you know, five acres in the mouth of the gang in. Yeah. Because they've got a need, a family member that needs housing, they ought to be able to have that on

the front. It it sounds like the the majority would like to consider it in all of our residential single family home areas if we take into account other factors like a lot coverage, you know, other standards, but every as a post

per majority.

Yeah. Okay. So I got that down, and that's super awesome. We are going to the next one. This an eight this should be kind of an easy one.

How many ADUs should we be allowed on a lot? Like, the max could be, you know, two ADUs. So you have one internal basement apartment with the house, and then you have another one as detached. So you have two so, actually, you have three units. You have your primary, your, internal one, and then a detached one. Or you could say you can have an ADU on the lot. No problem. It's just you either have it. One is attached internal or one is detached. But

For instance, you can't have a basement apartment, and you can't have a detached one. Right. Or can you have both? Would you be okay with both? Or one or the other?

I I personally think it's one or the other, and I don't think it has to do with parking or the unions. Where are you gonna put all that?

You're gonna give up a lot

of your land just like I got a garden.

Yeah. Exactly.

I think if you got some larger lots that you can easily kill if you catch in it and and then Yeah. Internal.

So and you can meet the partner.

Yeah. Yeah. Easy. Yeah.

So depending on what size so it could be one could be both, but it really depends on the size of that, Sean, is what I guess her. Thousand square

feet than two. You probably would have 22,000 square feet above or a paper and above.

You're probably looking somewhere else.

Would feel more comfortable at least half a

yeah. But but then I wanna go back to your point about curfing issues. So I think if we did allow three housing units on the the lot, then I think we should apply ourselves on the street. K. We'll and we'll get we'll we'll get to that. So it it depends if we allowed it. You wanna make sure we have proper parking. Yes. Yes.

But I think I think Plus.

But if they have less all of the other standard, does the square footage matter? Right. Yeah. I don't know. And keep on talking. I'm I'm thinking from

a perspective of Halloween. This is

a family that your husband.

Do we make these large enough that we could have these young couples that had to move out, can now come back at least for a while, live within the city and go to our schools, which are starting to close down? Or do we make them all one- two person places where it doesn't affect it doesn't help at all the the neighborhoods or the schools or

Well, note note that the accessory dwelling unit that you're creating could be occupied by the the owner of the home, and the main home could be rented out to somebody else.

You can downsize your own house.

You can downsize on your own property. Exactly. Well, I mean,

that makes sense if that's

the case. I'm just wondering if every

we have so many small things, and all we have is individual persons ridden in a baby, a young couple. But we don't solve the problem of allowing couples and stuff back into the city. So all we have now is just frenzied people there for a short period of time, and then

they would I think it's more likely that the mother and father were going to

a smaller place. They'll let one of the children put their fan on the.

And also note that on the internal ADU, there is no max or min on square footage of either space, whether it's the primary or the ancillary. So within the footprint of the existing home, the state doesn't allow us to regulate that at all. So the split in the share and the size of the unit isn't dictated. On the detached, that's where we do have some flexibility and some and we can dictate how big, how much, how large, how tall, all the way to half acre.

You do one internal, one external.

Feet that Four.

What I'm saying, if you have if you have an acre, sure. Why not?

Wait. You can't have two extra. Why not?

I would agree with that too.

Wait. I don't

think Once you go to Anchor, once you go to Anchor You got

so big. Wait. Yeah. It's such a big parcel.

Like, you're subdividing a little.

But but you're just talking about little units. They're not they're still not that big.

So we would But an acre an acre is

a lot of land. You If start breaking it down Yeah. But it's a lot of I

don't think you can go more than because one has to be one has to be owner occupied all the time.

Correct.

And if you're gonna do that, then the two would know, you'd have to

be rented. One has to be the primary owner. So that's, to me, limits you to one inside, one outside because one has to be the primary owner in it. Yeah. So you really can't go more than that on a law.

It's their primary cost. Still on a lot. It's they're still on a lot.

It doesn't matter. You still have

to meet the the state law, and the state law requires one to be the primary home and

a person I think that's a minimum. I don't

think that I think less employment.

Having Yeah. I don't

think it probably includes that. You can check that. I don't I don't

know that the state law requires that their occupancy, but we require it. And I think and I would recommend it.

Yeah. And I'm not big on building having got some guy with five

the discussion except on this one. Let's

talk about what the logic behind this whole thing is with the state. Isn't it to kind of find more housing for for either low income or moderate income? It's not? Well

Or for

the kids who can't afford a

house? They

say housing to the state.

Housing housing it's not

about building rental property or ski shalows, like nightly rents. It's about long term residential.

Right? Let's translate for buildings that building more housing unit creates the opportunity for more affordable.

Right? So, yeah, we're doing

That's what they're talking because it'll bring the price of housing not going be

I

that's to that. Know. I'm

just gonna that. I could actually drop that.

Assume we're only gonna get to two minutes max.

No. I don't think that's true. I don't think we're there yet. Dave and I aren't there yet.

But what if they did have five acres? Then would you say It's it's

not the right to subdivide.

Yeah. Yeah. K. So

We're we're just not there yet. We're still thinking that you could have three separate buildings on a lot if it's over a half an acre or one acre. Pick your size. Over an acre. Yeah. Over an acre. And I'm not

and I'm not there yet. I know. I know. Well, you can't you can't afford

come back to that one, but that one, we're not you don't we don't we haven't reached the now you can outvote us. You know? I'm just getting the pros

and cons of having more than K. Let's just let's let's assume in one scenario is that you can't have more than two. Okay? Is there a majority thinking that we should just have one internal or one external that's only one AU on a lot, or would you like to see one allow them to if they have the capacity to do an internal plus the detached use? That would be two additional

Actually, I already said yes. Yeah.

We said we said half acre or greater.

What we're talking now is do we even allow more than one extra in here? That's what this that's what they're saying.

That's what I'm talking about. We we figured that a half acre We figured at a half acre, you could have an internal and an insurance she's trying to

ask him that particular question here.

I just

her ask the question, and then you can give the answer.

Okay. Ask the question. Yeah.

I heard the 20,000 or more than I heard an acre or acre or more.

So the acre, yeah, the acre was more outside.

So if you have to go back to Mark's question.

How many ADUs should be allowed upon a lot options? Two ADUs on a lot, one internal and one external, or only allow one on the lot? You either get it inside internal or extra. Two.

Below 20,000 square feet, you get one internal. That's your thought.

What about the rest of the commission?

Well, this said 11,000. 11,000. But I don't know. I don't saying 11 to 20. So from 11 to 21

you can or the other. That's my thought. That includes an internal and an external? No. No. Just an internal or yeah. You're 11,000

feet internal or an external.

That's right. Albert Oh, yeah. I said that wrong because you already decided they could be 11,000. Yeah.

So it's it's

So the 11,000 went away. Everything below gets

to choose whether they want it internal or external.

My reaction to that was just that I think we should have both, and I think it should be based on lot coverage. But I don't know what that lot that's not sure I'm the

if

let's answer that. One. Seeing not that right now because that's there's that we'll have, like, five different workshops with you guys.

Well, it's

your If it takes time, we're gonna do five. Let's don't control the conversation. Let's let's let this open up, and then it'll naturally cave itself in. Stupid ideas go away in good way of staying.

So that was already, I

think, kinda agrees on. So then the question is, what about a over an acre? Yes. And what I was saying over an acre is that you should be able to have an internal and one or two external.

Yes. Yes.

Don't worry about that. Do have a question? I have a question. So if somebody want let let's say that that's what we allow is that you can have an internal basement apartment, and you can have two exterior detached dwellings. Right? So you can theoretically put two tiny houses. Could you put in one larger building and have an upstairs and a downstairs and have it connected? What does that look like? I think that's part

of the requirements that you come up. Kevin, they haven't talked about how big these things are. We're still

item two.

I'm not I'm not I'm not there yet to the to the four units. I'm still stuck on three. Yeah. Gotcha. And and, actually, I would even give that three requirement down to 11,000. I just don't think there's that what we said. Okay. So we're not at the half '8.

The fourth quarter. No. No. It's it's everywhere.

It's Wow. It's not There were there were some that thought it should be as long as you met the criteria, you can have both an internal and external. There were some that thought maybe it should be allowed, but only if it had certain size, whether that's 11,000 square feet or 20,000 square feet. That's my There were some but there I think it was a little more mixed as far as the reaction to whether you can have up to three total units on a lot. Some felt like there had to be certain criteria that needed to be met. Some felt like there needed to be a square footage allotment.

So in that particular case, you would you'd have only so many square feet or percentage of the original home dwelling for your Percentage of the

property coverage.

Yes. So

if your existing house is covering 50%, and we say, for example, you can cover 60%, they can only cover another 10% of the

globe. Like, we don't

have those two huge things in the backyard, two or three. No.

And I think we agreed to one of the accessories, the external a two to be ancillary. Just to point. So the main Uh-huh. And that's

I just want to bring up

a point that as much as we want to allow this and everybody gets one on all this, there are also impacts to other people that are going be adjacent living birds. So and a lot of people so when I was in Ogden, one of the points that I got brought up during this conversation was that a lot of people's main investment in their whole life is their house. Right? They they buy something they expect it to be a certain way for the rest of their lives. Single family homes, single family neighborhood. I understand the whole housing conundrum that we're in, and I think that there's certainly options for that. But that's just something that's been in mind as being, you know, stepped on any and how high, how big.

So many neighbors the risk of not liking them.

Why about 12? Liking them, and then I'm like,

you're I'm gonna say. I

don't have 12 acres, so I can't just, like, put my house in and work in the acres and assure myself a lot of.

Let's focus back on the next topic.

K. K. So parking, right now, I just want you to know that our existing parking code requires two a two car parade in in the home, and there's two in the driveway. So that's a total of four parking spaces. And internal ADUs, because we do require four, we don't require two. We already require four. We are not allowed to require any more additional parking spaces for that internal ADU. So that's the four. However, the state law does allow us, if we want to, to require additional parking spaces if there's a detached ADU. And they but they do put limits on it.

So if the detached ADU is less than 600 square feet, we can require only one additional parking space. We don't have to, but we could require one. But if it's 650 square feet or greater, we could require two parking spaces. So, there's some options I'd like to get a feel for, the permission of what you, think for if we should require only one additional parking space, regardless of the size or if we should go with what the state allows us to. One parking space for the smaller one, and then two parking spaces if they want something a little bigger or no parking space.

Maybe we we don't wanna have any more parking space requirements. We we think the four, the two car garage, and the driveway, that's it. We could do that as well. We could also consider if it was near a transit station or or some types of transit, then we wouldn't necessarily need to require, or reduce the parking requirement. Because, like, right now I mean, it depends.

Some of our residential zones are near, some kind of a transit station. And but the ones up in the hill, the larger lots, 11,000 square feet or greater, are not real close to transit station. But it could be a caveat that in that event, you could reduce the parking. So there's a lot of ways. We don't have to requirements. Do we have any feel for I mean,

there's a couple of this. First off, if I own the upper home and I rent the lower home, I'm paying for the upper home, I can have two, three, four kids in cars with them already, You know, without doing them. Other problem is we occasionally have snow around here. If you don't have adequate space parking, we don't have enough parking for the snow. When they have to be on the street, then we're gonna have to the street, which cause really problems for our snow removal because where do you park them?

If you've got two up and two down, you've got two more or four more, they'll be parked on the street. So we have to be very careful that we're not adding to the congestion of the street during our street cleaning guys, the snow removal guys had terrible times.

I actually think what the state came on to us is pretty good. The reason I say that is we're not a walker. Everybody's got a car. Everybody's got a car.

You put two people in that

that 650 or 700 square foot unit, they're both gonna have cars. You put

three in there. They're gonna

have three cars. And so I think you have I think that's what the state has come up with. Yeah.

You need a lounge, you're gonna have.

So I And I think that has to be off street.

So I agree.

If you have a 651 square foot unit, you're gonna have six parking stalls in

the. Yeah. That's Yeah.

Now the state last year required us to count tandem parking spaces to to deep. So, potentially, if you have the six, if we and they had a 651 square foot detached accessory dwelling unit, those two would not necessarily or wouldn't have to require What? Covered, and they could be tandem. So

Right. If they a three car garage with your home.

That's and and if the driveway

yeah. And the driveway

and stuff. Yeah. So So, I mean, my sense is is that what the state allows us to require, that there is some support for that. Yeah. Okay. So We have some brief. We want that. You agree with the city council on

that one? I don't know.

What did they say on

I

will say they're much more conservative. Don't want their meetings on that.

Yeah. It's yeah. They like what the state allows. Yeah.

11,000.

Yeah. They're very conservative. They're concerned.

There's there's but the theory behind that is this. They're not saying

that they never wanted to go to the other.

They're saying this is new to the city,

and it might be good

to take a small step first. Do this first, see how it works,

and learn from it, and

then relook at it in a year and add to it.

I I think there's been plenty of already looking

at it.

I'm just saying that that was

their And I think it's weird that that where things need to go. And so this interim step is it it holds things back. I agree. Just rip the Band

Aid off and move forward. Wish we're not elected. You

can say whatever you want.

It's gonna go through us before it gets back to them, though. And we can send a message of what we think.

I think we can. They always ask what does the planning commission they they seriously are all. So if they wanna know what you're ranking and what your facilities are, they honestly look at that.

I think there's so many people, so many residents that will change their mind on what they think

is acceptable once their conditions change. Right.

And I'll use a personal I

I have a 10,000 square foot lot.

My parents are downsizing, and I'd love to have them view. But if it's the 11,000 that

under that bull on that walk.

Exactly. So to me, you know That was a good in place. And and to me, that type of, you know, lot of you know,

you know, multigenerational family housing to me seems like that would be

a great fit for a

10,000 square foot block. But if

they're automatically gonna cut off

how many percentage of homes that

are 11,000 feet bigger, that's really just that's

kinda just sorry. I I would really Well,

keep in mind too, though. I mean, I I agree in terms of the hard cutoff, but the thing is, you can do multigenerational with an internal, you know, an addition.

Not with not with Well, well,

I'll give you another mobility issues.

Yeah. That's a 100% the issue. So

yeah. Here's a great

You you you you can do a detest view, but you cannot do an attesting is what you're saying.

I'm saying mobility mobility for a a detached home that would sit behind my home, for example. One level to be able not multistory. The only way I could get it detached or an internal data, I'm going downstairs, multiple stairs for

my mom.

You couldn't go you couldn't go out. No.

So to me, building building that to me would be a lot easier to their mobility to build something from the

ground up, they pick out how they do it. Rather than adding on Absolutely.

Because the cost on that, I think, would be substantially more than what I've

I had somebody come out

and price it just for the heck of it.

The roof that What's that? Cost. Yeah.

Their experience and yours. So the others

the other side of the point is what you know, my daughter called me. She said, I think I wanna move back to Salt Lake and would like to live. So I'd like to go to a little unit and move out. Of the Okay. You've got the parents who live in a house, who the house is too big. My house is 8,000 square feet.

And when when I

had all the kids there and boyfriends and girlfriends, was, you know, I felt like it was too small. But now it's, like, it's empty. So it'd be nice to

have them live there and move

into schooling. And there's a lot

of people That's why this discussion has taken place for.

It's just

really two things that you guys just described are probably the biases that are mostly, they are used for. Yeah.

How is how do we look in

the military or three different?

Two and three.

Okay. So the next question, in general, how large of the ADU do you think would be appropriate? The you know, a lot of the other cities have a maximum size for detached ADU to be a thousand square feet or less. And but, also, you can consider well, in relation to the primary home, you know, we may have a square footage, but, also, we don't want it any bigger than the primary home, or it has to be less in size. So you can have multiple criterias like but also but, yeah, could be smaller, like, well, no larger than 50% of the primary zone, like, or no more larger than 75%.

And, also, you could have a rear yard lot coverage added in. So but just if we just take the size, you know, in terms of detached ADU, is there a sense of, you know, the size that a thousand square feet you can you can have a fair amount in a thousand square feet.

I'll tell you. Max on there. That's good. What

about Oh, and the other thing is

I Yeah. I agree.

The other thing is I just just so you can compare. This table shows you on accessory structures with the size limits that we have already. And so these are not livable, but, if you have a shed or something that you're building or a garage, detached garage, if your property is less than 15,000 square feet, you have a maximum of 750 square feet of a detached accessory structure or 25% of the rear yard lot coverage, whichever is less.

K. So that's where I was going with my original question is this one. I think this limits things far too much because yeah. I mean, I look at for my well, I'm two over two and a half acres. I've got a barn. That barn takes up a

good chunk of this.

Oh, well, I can put I can put, like, several thousand foot meat structures on and have it blend in. No worries. I I think that that having that be limited by this by the detached structure, structure, the overall set of instructions. There there are obviously exclusions. There are obviously things that you don't have to deal with. And

I think when we get to smaller lots Yeah. I would really I would really like to know what we're already dealing with. But the architect in me doesn't wanna completely wipe out green

space. Yeah.

So just remember, though, Dave, everybody doesn't take care of a place like you do

to have that many on it. I mean, is immaculate. You know what I mean? You really take care of it in that, but this covers everybody in the city. Know what I mean? Everybody to have that many can it it doesn't always turn out well. And we got few of these valves.

Your yours is great, and you can handle it.

We got these valves within those, ranges as well that allows you to go beyond the 2,000 square feet through a CUP. That that that That allows It's too limited still. It gives you a a 50% increase for a a property that like yours that has an a designation. That is true. So that allows you to go up to 3,000 square feet. Correct. Would you consider this along

How many banks see these as far as?

Is there a

square footage on

the bank? Don't know the answer to that. No. I think is. I think some of it Germane, one

we say either. Well, I mean, what I'm asking is if we approve something that the banks will not fund, it's no good. So I don't know what the banks

Yeah. But we we don't

do land use on based on what a

bank will fund or what it doesn't fund.

However, it might control it. I mean, you're it might it might be a point that you deal with, but we can't. As part of this, you don't consider. But as far as the reality, am I?

I just want I

wanna come up with great things, but the banks is like,

I'm not gonna fund a 600. Then they can't

do it. Is there a way to find out how much green space

we have on an average lot size?

I mean, I I know, Dave, yours is bigger. Well But if we take, like, an 11 to 20,000 square foot block, 11 20,000 or less, what's what's the average coverage? Yeah.

So I'm good with doing the percentage, having a having a green space. Yeah. I'm good with that. I'm just saying these other ones that limit it off larger ones, which that's not the issue.

Yeah. That's so I'm just trying to figure out what is that.

Your well, that's that's where on the rear yard, the lot if you're to have an accessory structure, here's your size limits and or 25% of rear yard lot coverage, whichever's less. So if I had a small lot and the 25% rear yard lot coverage for all accessory structures is 600 square feet max, then it can't be any more than 600

square You're you're saying that what the code currently allows for accessory structures should be used for these. Be That's right. You're that's

what This is a that's

good terrace. Already. By definition, these are accessory buildings. Yeah. Yeah. And, therefore, they must All them. They're all over. To in house.

But I can also tell you in the large lots in the sensitive area already getting water. We have maximum lot coverage, period, for the whole lot, not just for your yard, but it's it's r one fifteen and below is 50% max lot coverage. If it's larger than that by r one twenties and above, you've got a

40% block coverage max elsewhere outside of don't have a a mandatory back.

Like, overall, a rear yard max block coverage. We also have limitations on More space. Parking, chartscapes, front kind of a thing. Max.

This is a smaller restaurant for

40,000 or less is

If you have it depends on how much room you have in your rear yard. We have that notice based on this. This coverage is 25% of your rear yard area, not your total lot area. Not your total Your rear lot area.

I thought we already agreed that we didn't necessarily care about the property size and comparison. We just said it needs to be small.

And then what?

It's smaller than the main house. Smaller than the main house. That can be an additional requirement. You may have even three standards. You need to meet all three. And if you can't, you know, to meet this other one, maybe it has to go smaller.

Bring that aside because these are, by definition, an accessory building. You're allowed to have up to two detached buildings on a lot in Sandy. Like Hold on. Thanks for making that issue. It's not cool. I mean, yes. You can. But we're just giving you the baseline of what we've got now. So Payments. I think it's important to consider I think it's important to consider the total impact of what we're talking about here.

Like Clint pointed out, recently, if you want wide acceptance, this these are the standards that are already in place that people accept as Yeah. The standard, that they can't have more than two detached structures in their rear yard and that, they can't exceed a a certain size unless they go to the planning commission for some extras, extra room.

Saying, I thought we had a problem with that already, but I do have a question. If you just go back to that last slide. Sure. You had is that set on rear block coverage? 25%. Yeah. We do we wanna prohibit I guess this is a question in the group. Do we wanna prohibit external ADUs, or do we have the right to think about this upfront? Yeah. That's another question that we're getting to.

Yeah. That's a good one.

And I think that too. Buy bigger lots. It's not an issue gonna it's not gonna be an issue on smaller lots. Yeah. Buy buy It's an issue on bigger lots where it needs to be dealt with rear end start. They're behind the back. Behind the rear plane of the home, extended to the side property lines.

When we get to the one

on the prop how you fit them

on the lots, we'll talk about that. If you can put them in front

and how that might vary between Let's

think about this. Lot sizes. Because a lot of the big lots, the homes were placed sort of the back. Right. I'm not very And then all your room is in the front.

You're having to make a decision on anything. That's tonight, Bridget. That's just discussion.

We need to discuss that.

That's a that's a good news. I thought we probably could see.

But a lot of people do to make it

this in an area and bigger lives.

Just this executive session. Yeah. Decisions are getting made here. And we might have to meet again.

I think pretty well. We feel it.

I feel it. I'm just I will tell you.

Will tell you this is

so much better A lot. Than watching the videos. Alright. We get credit for this. We're actually thinking. He's awake. Okay.

Well, we could come back. It it is I was just I'm I'm thinking I wanted to also bring you some more examples of the size limits that are going around in our region that's I think

it would be really interesting

if you could take

couple of lots. This is the architect. Take a couple of lots, lay them out, show what a typical home looks like. Concessive 6,000 square foot lot or 8,000 square lot. Eleven, twelve, so on and so forth. And how much land physical kind of typically?

And then how much area would it built Exactly. And I'm building up this piece

of trust.

So you also to build

it where I want. I'm even sure where I want it. Yeah.

And and you all have to consider the percentages of of lots like Dave's, which Dave's doesn't enough. There's not a lot of lots like yours in the city. Okay. You're just that it's it's kind of that extreme end. In

what way? By having the house in the back? Yeah. That's all fine. And then we got a a heart that just will stop.

Do you have a sense of of preferences for how tall an ADU should be? We can look at setbacks, and, you know, you may have, like, well, I'd be okay with two stories, but it depends on how far away it is from the property line. But I think this depends on zones.

I think this depends on spot size.

Complaining if you have a one story versus a two story. So we get back down, there's

a down into my house.

You're now it's autumn. You're you're not far away from my house. No.

You're I just have a couple pictures. These these are examples of, like, a Yeah. Not cute little one stories. This is, like, a one and a half where you have bonus room up above. And this one is, like, two stories. These are just images of examples of what that might might be. Why.

I I I like what David is saying because I think it has to do with height

or size of thought. I don't know what height.

Size of lot. The height has to do with the size of loss, how far away things are. So and I think you could make

an argument that further away from adjoining property mining as well. Yeah.

So if you're if you're five feet away, maybe it's one story.

10 feet away, maybe it's a story and a half. If you're 20 feet away, maybe it's two stories.

Yeah. Just that five or 15 people wanted everybody. Yeah. Whatever whatever the calculation is, it has to do with the view plane. So

what I figured. Every be everybody be open to you know, they can have two stories, but it really depends on the size of the lot and what kind of setback. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Because if they're really close, then maybe it's just gonna be one more story.

Okay. And, again, it's important to remember this regulation she's got on the screen that talks about what the maximum height in the rear yard area for a detached building is.

This is for existing accessory structures.

Which these are. These are accessory structures. So they would also need to follow the same minimum or maximum, sorry, height unless they got a conditional use of meds to regulate that additional exercise.

And We're

gonna be getting so many conditional use permits, and then we'll have to design something that doesn't have some good criteria to say, if you got Cefax, you you're okay. You can go higher. I'm just I'm just saying what the current process have is. I'm saying the current process is what the amendment looks so that it doesn't have to have

are permitted uses with as long as they

can meet the standards you guys put in place. And the council The height is on a percent. So they don't meet that act, and that's conditional use. Well, they They don't get it. Well, what do they do now? Unaccelerate Unaccelerate building without an accessory structure. Sure. Oh, I'm talking about it.

I thought we were on school on ADUs. No. You're starting Okay.

I got it. We're talking about the existing effort that we have in our industry buildings. Yep. Hey, Brett. If I mean,

it's currently yeah. That's what Well, I

I thought we were still

on We're running short on time.

You guys use. We'll just be

You need to touch your tongue. You're maybe

You need to meet it or you I guess I should have started at four. I like

it. That's what that's what Dave said.

I think this is a really good discussion, though, because you guys

are really getting out what you're thinking and and what we can well, think it's worth for you.

I think it's good that we can think about these now for the next two weeks. Maybe do that again.

Well, you recovered two

Alright. Everybody to the May 21 planning commission meeting. We'll do a quick round of introductions of planning commissioners and staff and then we'll do a pledge of allegiance. Ron Mortimer. David Hart. Danny Schoenfeldt. Cameron Duncan.

Dave Bromley. Steve Wrigley.

James, do want

to introduce staff?

Yes, thank you. My name is James Sorenson.

I'm the community development director.

You want to see if we can fix it or should I just keep going?

Okay. Clayton Spencer is a development services manager. I said Chance is a senior planner. Ivan Hooper, transportation engineer. And Jen Gilliland. I can actually say her last name so I will say it. She is filling in for Ayesha tonight. She works in our office as well. Thanks, Jen.

Thank you. We'll do a quick Pledge of Allegiance and get started.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of The United States Of America

The first agenda item tonight is the jazz box phase 4B. Mike, do you want to do that introduction?

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I almost don't have the echo. One second, second. All right is that better? Okay. Yes the first item that we have on our agenda is SEG presenting a request for a site plan review of a modified site that would encompass the Jazz Box. This is a phase within their redevelopment plans for the mall. I believe our applicant is here Larry Oldham with Babcock Design is representing the applicant.

Did you guys want to come down and

if you'll state your name and address for the record.

Larry Oldham. 672 West Houston Street, Stansbury Park, Utah. I'm a partner and architect with Backup Design representing SEG today. Today, we are looking at the site plan approval for the new practice center for the Jazz. We'll start from the bottom up, I guess.

We have a 119,000 underground parking garage that will house 300 cars. A third of those cars will be a private use by the Utah Jazz, and the the other two thirds will be a public use by Intermountain Health. You must have heard that the the new partnership with them. So they are the development to the north of us. They will share that garage with the Jazz.

Both of the facilities will have a a plaza area at the at the grade the site amenities area, that will be private parking for the jazz side with some open space for entertaining any sponsors or invited guests. So that will not be a public area. The facility is a private facility that will house the jazz practice, two basketball courts, locker rooms, weight rooms, and other exercise areas for their conditioning and and health. It also house the youth the jazz basketball administration, their executives, any trainers, and coaches. We have followed the aesthetic of the the hockey center as far as the geometry, the materials.

They will be very similar in look. That's also reflects what we are doing on the West Side for the SCG employee opposite areas that we've already discussed.

Yeah, anything Any questions from the commission?

Have one.

I have a question. So when we as the Architectural Review Committee met and reviewed this, there was no real information about the building that is currently marked with an IHC banner. Is that part of this discussion now?

That is not part of this discussion. They will have their own separate site planning process, building permitting process. There are a couple images that if you look closely, you can see some grayed out images, and that is very similar to what's right there. Yeah. That's that is the Right. That's right. That is the facility. Yeah. So now

that we've announced Is that where it's headed now?

That's where it's headed now. Yeah. So we so the Jazz will occupy the south half of the the parking area on top. That's where the Jazz will the building will be. And then right adjacent to it.

So your your demarcation is the edge of your building? Yes. It's the white wall, the glass wall, and the roof.

Correct? That wall where the arrow is. Yeah.

Yeah. And then the rest of that to the North. Building behind it, to the north and to the west, is something that IHC will have to come and get approvals for.

Billy, if you're counting the the geometry, the volume to that to the west of that upper, that yes. That is IHC. Just wanna make sure we know what

we're talking about.

But so so we're talking about everything to the south of that Blue Ribbon Building. Blue Ribbon Building. Yes.

That