Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

May I have your attention, please? Out of respect for the proceedings and in consideration of others in the audience, please turn off or silence any sound-emitting devices. If you wish to speak on an item or register your opinion for an item on today's agenda, speaker slips are available in the rear of the chambers and must be turned in prior to the item being called on the agenda to the commission secretary in the front of the room. Complete the green slip if you are in support of an item. Complete the pink slip if you are in opposition of an item. Complete the white slip if you are neutral on an item. If you have questions about today's hearing process or need assistance with speaker slips, staff is available to assist you. These hearings are recorded, so when your name is called, please approach the lectern and give your full name. Each speaker will have three minutes unless otherwise approved by the chair. Information on how to appeal, any decision can be found on the last page of today's agenda, and we will begin shortly.

Good morning. Happy New Year. And welcome to the County of San Diego Planning Commission hearing of January 9th, 2026. Madam Secretary, please call the roll.

Commissioners, please answer for the record when your name is called. Chair Ashman.

Here.

Commissioner Calvo.

Here.

Commissioner Edwards.

Here.

Commissioner Pallinger. Commissioner Weber. Commissioner Sudbury?

Here.

Commissioner Sibelico?

Present.

Please note for the record that five commissioners are present and two are absent.

We do not have anyone asking to appear remotely, so we'll move to public communication. Public communication provides an opportunity for members of the public to speak to the Commission on any subject matter within the Commission's jurisdiction, but not on any item on today's agenda. No specific action will be taken on any comments or queries that come from public communication. However, this could result in a referral to staff. Madam Secretary, are there any members of the public wishing to discuss a topic not listed on today's agenda?

Sean, do we have anyone on hold for item D?

We have no callers for item D, and we've also confirmed with staff that the audio is working on the stream.

So we have no Public communication. This concludes the public testimony. Handout materials related to today's agenda. Documents to be considered as evidence shall be filed with the Secretary of the Planning Commission no later than 4 p.m. on Wednesday, January 7th. The Planning Commission may, however, receive into evidence for good cause shown or impose reasonable conditions on late filed documents. Please note that this does not apply to the materials presented at the meeting as part of a visual presentation. A staff presentation for today's items was posted online for the public to view on Tuesday, January 6th, more than 24 hours in advance of the hearing and the public was able to provide comments by submitting e-comments prior to the hearing. Madam Secretary, are there any handouts or e-comments related to today's agenda items?

Chair Ashman, 32 correspondences have been received. All items were submitted to the Commission through email or hard copy. They have been made available to the public on the Planning Commission website and at the rear of the chambers.

We'll move to requests for continuance. Director, are there any requests for continuances from staff?

There are no requests.

We will now form the consent calendar. These are items to which no opposition has been expressed or received. Madam Secretary, are there any items for consent?

Chair Ashman, yes, we do have one item available for consent, item number one, but we do have information for item number one before we approve that on the consent calendar.

Chair Ashmans, there's just two items of clarification related to item one that staff wanted to enter into the record. The first was that in the staff presentation, we had made reference to 742 units. The development has actually built out 737 units. And then in terms of the Johnston Ward House, this is a historic structure on the property. Just wanted to clarify that it isn't just limited to a museum use. There are other uses that are allowed for that particular property.

Is there a motion on item number one for consent? Move consent. Second. We have a motion and a second to approve item number one, Harmony Grove Village live work list of permits. Madam Secretary, please call the vote unless there's someone who wants to speak.

Commissioners, when your name is called, please vote. Chair Ashman.

Yes.

Commissioner Calvo. Yes. Commissioner Edwards.

Yes.

Commissioner Sudbury.

Yes.

And Commissioner Sabalico.

Yes.

Let the record show that this item passes with a vote of five in favor, none opposed, and two absent.

We will now begin item two, the Carve Ski Park Major Use Permit. If you wish to speak on item two, please call in on 619-343-2539. The conference ID is 581-711-115-POUND. We will begin with staff's presentation.

Good morning, Chair and Commissioners. My name is David Mack, a contract planner with Planning and Development Services. Today I will be presenting on item number two, which is the CARV ski park major use permit. The department is before you today recommending approval of the project. Project site, marked by a red star, is located just east of Interstate 15, south of the Deer Springs Road exit along North Center City Parkway between Tierra Libertia Road to the north and Jesmondine Road to the south. Project site is designated Semi-Rural Residential SR1. The project site is zoned Limited Agriculture A70. The proposed outdoor recreational use is authorized in the A70 zone upon approval of a major use permit application. The project site has historically been used as a golf driving range since 1985 and is still in operation. The site contains one 660 square foot modular building in the northern portion of the site, which serves as an office for the driving range and would be demolished with the new use. Surrounding land uses include an inactive nursery site to the north, Jesmondine Road to the south, single family residential uses to the east and southeast, and Interstate 15 to the west. Commercially zoned properties are located further to the north. The Carve Ski Park is an outdoor, year-round, synthetic snow sports complex. The ski park has both a village area and a hill area. The hill area includes two distinct ski run areas, seven tubing runs, two ground-level ski lifts known as magic carpets, a jump tower, a zip line, and a bunny hill beginner area. The village area includes an outdoor patio pavilion, and four buildings totaling 9,525 square feet. The overall hours of operation will be 10 a.m. to 10 p.m. Sunday through Thursday and 10 a.m. to 11 p.m. Friday and Saturday. The golf driving range operations will continue on Friday mornings only between 8 a.m. and 10 a.m. The site is anticipated to employ a total of 20 employees with 12 total employees being on site at any one time. Previously, the development includes a village area consisting of four buildings totaling 9,525 square feet. Building A is the administrative and guest services building located at the entrance of the project site. The village area proper includes buildings B and C. Building B is a pavilion with food and alcohol service and outdoor and indoor seating areas. Building C is for equipment rental and private event rental space. And building D is a maintenance and storage building. The project will improve the existing parking lot to increase parking capacity to 146 spaces, including ample EV parking. Solar will be provided and installed on all new buildings. The project will use a material known as JF dry ski, which is a white synthetic proprietary material composed of thin strips tipped with rounded balls in a mushroom type shape. The white mats are produced in blocks and installed in a staggered brick like pattern on aluminum trays. The brick pattern and tray system allows individual sections to be replaced and maintained when needed. The ski mat, snow material, and aluminum tray base has an estimated lifespan of 10 years before replacement is required. Hillside ski facility will have a maximum capacity of 100 people at any one time. In order to limit the capacity of the ski facility, The project includes a reservation system. Tickets would be required to be purchased online in advance and a wristband would be provided upon arrival. Each time slot for entry into the facility would be for two and a half hours and will allow the use of the ski slopes, tubing runs, and bunny slope area. Guests will be asked to arrive approximately 30 minutes prior to their reservation time to check in and collect rental equipment. The zipline tower will be available for use with separate ticket purchases. If the ski hill reaches the maximum capacity of 100 people, zipline access will be restricted until capacity becomes available. The project was reviewed for conformance with the major use permit findings. Based on the project design, staff determined that the proposed location, size, design, and operating characteristics of the project will be compatible with adjacent uses. The project has been designed to be consistent with the I-15 design guidelines and has been reviewed and found to be in conformance with the North County Metropolitan sub-regional plan. The proposed bulk and scale is comparable to surrounding properties and all required utilities are available for the project. The Hidden Meadows Community Sponsor Group voted to recommend conditional approval of the project. The Hidden Meadows CSG provided four conditions for their approval. One, that ingress and egress take place from Tierra Libertia. Two, only egress take place from Jesmondine. Three, frontage trees shall be a mixture of coastal live oak and Engelman oaks. And four, activities shall end at 10 p.m. with the club area closing at 11 p.m. The applicant implemented all requests from the CSG. The I-15 Corridor Design Review Board voted to recommend approval of the project on March 13, 2024. Noise attenuation was discussed in depth to ensure the project would meet county noise requirements. In time of application submittal, public notices were sent to property owners within a radius of 1,500 feet surrounding the project site. Concerns associated with the project consisted of those related to the size of the project, noise, incompatibility with adjacent uses, light pollution, traffic, impacts to property values, safety in crime, flooding, and impacts to biological resources. An initial study and mitigated negative declaration, or MND, was prepared and circulated for a 30-day public review period from September 15, 2025 through October 14, 2025. Staff received 11 formal comments from individuals including residents in the community and comments from Caltrans and the San Diego Archaeological Society. Concerns and comments from the residents in the community were similar to those received from the Notice of Application. The comment letter from Caltrans was primarily informational in nature, but specifically requested information on Project VMT, the preparation of a local mobility analysis, LMA, and impacts to state facilities and right-of-way. The projects VMT and LMA are included in the CEQA document. The project is not located within the Caltrans jurisdiction and does not propose or require any physical changes to Caltrans facilities or right of ways. The San Diego Archaeological Society letter expressed agreement with the impact analysis and mitigation measures identified in the ISMND. To address concerns from the public regarding noise, an acoustical analysis was required. the analysis concluded that the construction of the bunny hill may exceed the 75 dba standard to mitigate potential noise impacts to below a level of significance the project has been conditioned to require a construction noise management plan to mitigate impacts to ongoing project operations a 10-foot high noise attenuation wall will be constructed approximately 15 feet from the property line, which would reduce noise impacts to adjacent residences to below a level of significance. Project is not anticipated to have a significant traffic impact. A project is estimated to produce 526 daily trips with 29 a.m. peak trips and 55 p.m. peak trips. The project will provide a regional ski facility and reduce vehicle miles traveled as it will draw activity generally headed out of the county to other facilities like Big Bear, Mammoth Lakes, and the Tahoe region. Traffic flows into the facility will be from Tierra Libertia and exit upon Jesmondine to access North Center City Parkway. Because the project complies with all relevant codes and regulations, is in conformance with the general plan and the required findings can be made, staff recommends that the Planning Commission approve the project as detailed in the staff report. Staff also recommends that the Planning Commission find the project in conformance with the California Environmental Quality Act through the approval of a mitigated negative declaration. This concludes staff's presentation and we are available for questions should you have any. Thank you.

Are there any questions or discussions with the staff on their presentation from the commissioners?

Mr. Slovak, is there some opposition to this?

Commissioner Edwards, that's correct, there is. There was one point of clarification that we wanted to make before public testimony. Go ahead, staff.

Thank you. The PowerPoint and staff report erroneously listed the wrong hours of operation. As shown on the slide, the staff report and PowerPoint detailed operations between 10 a.m. and 10 p.m. or 10 a.m. and 11 p.m. The actual project description hour of operations, which was also included in the traffic report and all technical studies for the initial study, should be Monday through Thursday, 9 a.m. to 10 p.m., which is one additional morning hour. On Fridays, 9 a.m. to 11 p.m., which again is one additional morning hour. Saturdays, from 8 a.m. to 11 p.m., which would be two additional morning hours. And Sundays, 8 a.m. to 10 p.m., again, two additional morning hours. So staff just wanted to correct the record that the hours of operation are increased a little bit, as mentioned in the original project description application.

Can you remind us what two hours of the week the golf driving range would be open?

Absolutely. The golf driving range would be open on, I believe, Fridays from 8 to 10 a.m.

Okay. Well, that's important then because the actual time overlaps now with the golf driving range. Is that... I mean... Has that been considered?

That has been considered, yes. And I think the applicant may address that. If there are activities at 9 a.m. on Friday, golf may be restricted on those days.

Is the golf range going to be smaller footprint and less golfers than it currently is at this time?

From my understanding, the golf activities will occur from the village area and will be available across the entire property. I don't think it's a reduction in size per se, but golf balls will need to be collected before the ski facilities are activated.

Actually, those are very similar questions to what I had was because I did notice in the development proposal portion of the staff report that it says that the facility would also retain the existing golf driving range. And then I was looking through the diagrams trying to figure out how that relates to the ski facilities. And I know they're not planned to operate at the same time, but In my mind, it would seem a little odd to be hitting golf balls into the ski facility. Is there a diagram that explains that somewhere?

Yeah.

I think that we would allow the applicant to address that and go into more detail about how those operations will occur.

Okay.

And then also, do you have input from the Department of Environmental Health on this proposal?

The Department of Environmental Health did review the application and did provide guidance on the project, correct?

You happen to know what that guidance might be?

Commissioner, through the Chair, there's going to be a 20,000 gallon septic tank and then there's going to be a backup tank that's another 10,000 gallons. And that's a drip dispersal system.

Thank you. Any other questions of staff? Madam Secretary, are there any planning or sponsor groups wishing to speak?

We have no callers for this item.

Now, we did want to do the presentation from the applicant. They did prepare the presentation.

Okay, and the applicant has asked for time to make a presentation. And as we go into the public testimony, I would, again, because it's a large gathering, please proceed in a manner that displays tolerance and forbearance. We all have different ideas and opinions on things. But this is a somewhat technical exercise to go through and look at the findings for these types of permits. So we've tried to focus on those.

Good morning, Commissioners. Sorry, we have different color lights than you guys do on your mics. My name is Matt Simmons, and I'm with Consultants Collaborative. I'm the principal for our planning firm, and I have with us today Helix Environmental with our environmental consultant, Julie McCall, our project manager and principal, Molly Ryan, environmental planner, Rachel Ortiz-Colwell, our senior noise specialist, We have our civil engineering firm here with the principal, Mike Levin. And we have our traffic consultant here, CR and Associates, with Jonathan Sanchez, senior transportation engineer. And I've got my lead planner for our project, Terry Matthew, here as well, who will be going through the presentation. I also wanted to introduce the owners of the facility, Carve X, I'm sorry, Carve Ski Park, which is Carl Kozak and Ben Cherry. I met Ben and Carl actually just after COVID. They're right behind us here. Just after COVID as outdoor recreation became a significant factor in our everyday lives. I was actually working on a facility that was an indoor basketball facility that ended up being closed down due to COVID. And so we all started looking at, What are other activities that can happen during tough times if they happen to occur again? And Carl and Ben were very innovative and passionate about skiing and family activities and had presented this opportunity. We worked with them for quite some time to find an appropriate location in various locations throughout the county before finding this one. And with its proximity to the freeway, its existing MUP for an outdoor recreation facility currently in place, THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A GOOD FIT TO PURSUE THE APPLICATION. WE THEN PURSUED THAT PROCESS THROUGH THE COUNTY PROCESS TO GET US TO WHERE WE ARE TODAY. AND I DO APPRECIATE YOUR TIME, THE STAFF PRESENTATION, AND THE AUDIENCE SHOWING UP, WHICH IS QUITE TREMENDOUS HERE TODAY. SO WE'RE VERY EXCITED ABOUT THAT. We would like to answer any and all of your questions after the presentation, if that's okay, and reserve some time if you need any of our specialists to address either your questions or any questions you'd like us to address from the public. We have them here present today as well. WE DID PASS OUT A SAMPLE OF THE SKI SURFACE MATERIAL. WE'VE GOT OTHERS HERE. IF ANYONE ELSE WANTS TO SEE IT, TOUCH IT, FEEL IT. YOU CAN ACTUALLY STAND ON IT, AND I'LL DO THAT WHILE TERRY'S PRESENTING. AND IF ANY OF THE MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT, WE CAN SHOW IT TO THEM AS WELL. IT IS UNIQUE. AS DESCRIBED, It is not a snow surface. So we got questions like, how are you going to keep it cold? We're not. It's not that type of surface. So that all being said, I'd like to have Terry start the presentation. And as I see, you've got two colors. The orange is for the tubing surface, and the white is for the actual ski surface itself. Terry, if you want to go ahead and get started.

Good morning, Commissioners. We thought what we would do is to start with the existing facility, which is called the Thunderbird Driving Range. Next. And as you will see from these slides, it is in need of some significant reinvestment. So now I'd like to take the opportunity to introduce you to the proposed car ski park. And this is a view from the hill looking down to the village. You can see the zip line to the left. And tubing runs off to the right. Next. With the site plan here, you'll see that there are of the village clustered at the bottom with four buildings, the parking focused on Central City Parkway, ingress from Tierra Liberta, exiting onto Jasmine Dean. And I do want to draw your attention to the very top of the slide where there's the brown sort of strip and that is a 15 foot emergency pathway which was necessary for fire. And in front of that will be the sound attenuation wall with vines on the back so that it's more appealing to the residents if they get to look at it back into their neighborhood. And you can see the tubing and ski runs and up the very middle of the site is what's called the magic carpet. to take participants up from the bottom of the hill to the top. Next slide. And so the buildings will be for ticket and administration, food and beverage, family event rooms where you can have a child's birthday party and they can participate in the activities, much like Sky Zone, maintenance and storage building, and again, we'll have two main ski runs up on a hill, eight tube runs, a jump tower with two separate jumps for tricks and aerials, as people like to do, a zip line, and then obviously the magic carpet. As it was stated in the staff presentation, we do have 146 parking spaces with 57 EV, or Clean Air Vehicle, available parking. And then the hours of operation are listed as corrected by staff with the golf driving range. from 9 a.m. to 10 a.m. on Fridays. And I guess if you want to go back to the slide, the site plan slide, it is planned that, and it's hard to see here, but at the very bottom of the village area, there will be some golf pads for people to go and hit golf balls on Friday morning. So we have planned for that in the design of the facility. Next. Next. And these are some additional renderings of the site. The village area. And this is the jump tower. And you can see the two runs. And the zip line will actually conclude on this jump tower. And then you would just walk down and take the magic carpet back up and do another run. Next. And this is the ski hill from the village view upwards. And as we're talking about the ski hill, as we said, we had samples for you. And I think they've been passed out and you've looked at them. Next. This is a JF dry ski material, and as you see, it has an aluminum base. It will allow water to go through it from rain and go back into the soil. And we've accounted for all of that in our stormwater system. And it can also be formed on the hill to create moguls or jumps for snowboarders. Next. And then the tube runs will be formed out of this synthetic surface that allows the tube runs and it's very slippery and you get an inner tube and you go down for year round fun and you can see some people already having fun on other tube runs. Next. The good news is both of these products are recyclable. Not in your local blue bin, but they are through manufacturer take-back, specialized industrial and construction recyclers, or other disposal pathways. And in conversation, our applicants spent a lot of time talking with some other owners of other ski parks throughout the country. And their experience was that these products last well over 10 years with only needing to replace certain tiles or pieces, you know, in high traffic areas.

Next.

And the magic carpet, that's fascinating. What is the magic carpet? Well, it's constructed on site to fit the terrain. And it's much like you'd see in an airport with that movable sidewalk. So you get on, and it takes you along. And you would take your skis, you take your tube back up to the top, walk to your event, and get on and go back down. Next. And in terms, I spoke about some additional locations. There are numerous locations throughout the United States in Canada and Europe that use these similar products and have this outdoor skiing. And we wanted to highlight two facilities specifically. One is the Olympic Training Center in Utah, and Calgary, Canada also has an Olympic Training Center. And then we highlighted a couple of photos of Liberty Mountain Snowplex here on the left, and then Snow Mountain Peak in Estes, Colorado on the right. And you can see the magic carpet on the Estes one, sort of like an escalator taking people to the top of the hill. They put their equipment on and head down the snow hill. And then nothing more describes it better than to actually see people participating. You can imagine your son or daughter or a grandchild learning to ski or practicing their snowboarding skills or a family out enjoying the tube runs for the day. Next. We finally wanted to highlight our conformance to the County of San Diego development standards as well as CEQA. Next. And one of the key elements is the site lighting. Obviously, site lighting has to be compliant with dark skies. You can't have light flowing over your property boundaries. As you will see, everything has been sort of focused on the center city parkway area. It's somewhat what the terrain offers. All the buildings will have typical sconce lighting, all down lighting. The parking lot will have pole lighting, all facing downward. And then the ski hill will be lit. And if you want to go to the next slide, I think it shows it really well, where it's not on poles. It's just lighting that is focused on the ski hill so that if people are skiing at night, they can actually see where they're going. I also want to highlight that, in fact, because everything has been focused onto Center City Parkway, There's between 25 and 150 feet from the eastern property line where residences would be, so there would be no overflow to them as well. And then we have the 10-foot-high noise barrier as well. So we comply with the standards. Next. And then noise was a question, and our noise study noted that. that during the day and evening, the noise could exceed the county standards. County standards are 50 decibels during the day and 45 decibels at night. So that's why we went ahead and designed into the project that sound attenuation barrier, again, 10 feet high, 855 feet long. And it's much like what the fabric is, which they put around pickleball courts, but we'll add some vines on the backside for aesthetic value to the residences. So next slide. And by putting up that sound attenuation wall, it drops the the decibels down to 33.7 to 41.5 decibels, which is significantly below the county standards. Next. And this is just a view from the I-15. You might want to see, like, how does somebody driving by see it? And while it's oriented that, it's away from the residential area. And the next slide will point that out even better. You can see it focused down towards Central City Parkway and the residents in the background of both photos. Next. This is the traffic. We wanted to highlight here that, again, there's ingress off of Tierra Liberta, which is a private roadway, and exiting onto Jasmine Dean. From both roadways, there is clear sight distance of over 700 feet and beyond. This was the minimum. So there will be no visibility blockage from our participants leaving the site. And it was also noted that we had 526 average daily trips to the site. Again, that is spread out over the hours of operation and limited further by the fact that we take only 100 reservations for the ski slope at any given time. So if you allow two and a half hours, it's like a couple of hours. Past times in the morning, couple of times in the afternoon, and couple of times in the evening before the facility closes. So that'll balance out the traffic. Next. And the I-15 was specifically interested in the signage for the project. They have some standards that there be no backlit sites. So we developed our sign program. There's five signs, a pole sign at Center City Parkway, monument signs at East Driveway, and then building identification signs. And we have a couple of slides sort of showing that with down lighting and pleasant signage, which the I-15 corridor board liked very much. Next. Next. So finally, this is sort of that site plan again of the Carr Ski Park. And that concludes our presentation. We thank you for your time. We are available along with our consultants if you have any questions. And obviously, we'd like to ask you for approval of the project. Thank you.

Real quickly, before you guys get into questions, I did want to, while this slide is up, expand a little bit more on that golf conversation that was taking place earlier. Just wanted to clarify, this is a long-term lease that Ben and Carl have entered with the property owner. The property owner currently holds the existing MEP that allows for the golf use, and it was important for them to retain that use for the future. If there is ever a problem with a business success here where this just is not becoming a sustainable, profitable business to maintain, she wants the ability to remove this material, come back in for a modification of ours, but expand that back to the existing golf range. that of course would leave the improved parking lot, new buildings in campus, and be a much more upgraded facility. In the image here you can see along the green edge and the concrete or pavered side of the campus, there's little platforms sticking out. That is intended for the area for a golfer to come in on Friday morning and actually be able to do that. as much fun as it might be to shoot golf balls at skiers coming down the hill. I know we've all tried to hit that guy driving around collecting the golf balls. That is not the intent. It is to offer the opportunity, have them come in in the morning, and then as skiers show up, it takes them some time to get their gear, get set up. they would then stop the golf activity and allow the skiers to go up the hill and operate. So there won't actually be a crossover of physical golfing with physical skiing, even though there's a little bit of a crossover of the hours, just as people are prepping and getting ready for that next session. And again, we're happy to address any specific questions you may have. We do have quite a few People here in support, there have been quite a few letters that were turned in in support. There have been some limited letters in opposition, and I do believe there are a few speakers in opposition here today as well. If you'd like us to address any of their questions, we'd be happy to. We did ask the crowd that has shown up in support to just mark that they're here to support the project and not speak so that we're not just spending the next three hours listening to 100 different people speak on it. But there is a tremendous amount of support for this project. I just wanted to point that out.

Thank you. Do we have questions of the speaker or of their consultants? Go ahead.

Well, thank you for the presentation. I've been a planning commissioner in some way or form since 2021, and that was one of the best, most informative presentations I've heard. So I commend you on that, both of you. Have you read the opposition from the Sierra Club? And if you have, can you respond to it?

Sorry. Yes, we received that letter earlier this week and some of the documentation that you guys received in your package this morning. was our formal written response to comments on that letter, similar to how we would address it in M&D. We had our environmental specialist bracket the issues that that letter raised, and then we formed a formal response to that. And I'd be happy to read you some of those items if you'd like me to. Ultimately, they raised some concerns regarding microplastics and how that may enter into storm drain systems and cause downstream effects to riparian habitat. AND EVEN AIR QUALITY. AND IF YOU, AND YOU PROBABLY HAVEN'T HAD A CHANCE BECAUSE IT ALL HAPPENED VERY RAPIDLY HERE, BUT WHEN YOU DO HAVE A CHANCE TO READ THAT LETTER, YOU WILL SEE THAT IT CLARIFIES SEVERAL OF THE POINTS. SPECIFICALLY, THAT IS A GENERALIZED CALCULATION THAT WAS PROVIDED IN THAT LETTER ABOUT ALL PLASTICS THAT ARE THIS POLYCETYL MATERIAL, WHERE THIS ONE IS A PARTICULAR HARDENED MATERIAL the least likely to break down from abrasive conditions, which is why they utilize the material. As you noticed, I stood on this. It sprung right back to shape. You guys can bend it, pull it, stand on it. It doesn't break apart easily. The other problem with the letter that was sent in is it also assumes that any particle that breaks off of this instantaneously becomes a nanoparticle. And when plastic does break, it's similar to if you've ever broken a stick of pasta. When you break pasta, it actually doesn't break in two. It breaks into two pieces with one smaller piece in the middle. They end up being a variety of size of fragments. And that information provided, again, assumes everything is a nanoparticle. But most importantly, there are not standards for us to regulate quantities of this against or CEQA rules or regulations for us to follow and demonstrate. And that's what our obligation is, is to make sure that we have no significant impacts under CEQA to verify that there's not any issues going on there. Our stormwater detention basins, there actually have been studies done. There's an article out right now that was produced by NOAA, UCSD, Scripps Institution of Oceanography, conducted by Cal State Long Beach, and it showed that our existing stormwater systems that San Diego currently puts in place, and we will have brand new ones obviously being put in place here, can on a mean collect up to 72% of micro nanoparticles that come through the system. and depending on the storm event, have collected up to 99.8%. That was a study that was conducted between 23 and 25, and the article just recently came out. In our response to comments, we do address that, and we also had Some chemists from MIT and Berkeley give us a read-through and give us some points to add into that response as well. That is all on a public record. Again, I could get into some detail and go through that if you'd like me to, but we feel confident that the existing system is designed appropriately. and can capture as much of the microparticles that might come off of this as well. I do want to point out, I'm sorry, Mr. Sibelco, that the quantities that are being discussed, although they're scary numbers, I think the number quadrillion was in there in that letter, It actually equates to a very low amount. We've been given the equation of it's similar to an 18-wheeler truck driving on its rubber tires for 17 miles, one seven. So we have 18-wheelers driving around for thousands of miles. Our shoes are wearing off microparticles when we walk around that are Again, similar in the quantities that we're talking about. Polyacetyl or palm plastics are used in everyday life. My glasses, any food preparation items, utilize them. Because of its hardened material, they actually use it in automotive gearing and other manufacturing facilities that have much stronger need or need a much stronger plastic. So I hope that helps address some of the questions, and I apologize for cutting you off.

It does, thank you. I think it's really great that you submitted a written response to the comment from the Sierra Club. Unfortunately, I think it's identified a little bit of an evidentiary problem because I have not received the letter.

Let's hold off on that until we hear from the Sierra Club and other people.

OK. But is there a way that we can review that?

You can speak at the end of the public communication. OK.

Yeah, and I apologize. We got their letter I think on Monday or Tuesday of this week. And so we didn't want to go lackluster after it. So we had to work with Helix Environmental. We had to go and find the right chemist PhDs to help give us the feedback here and make sure that what we were giving you is appropriate responses. And so that did take a couple of days. We finalized this, frankly, yesterday evening and got it submitted in right just before the deadline. So sorry for the last minute, but we just want to be responsive.

And then Chair Ashman, I do have hard copies that I can go ahead and still provide it, provide electronic copies, but like you said, timeliness, but I will provide you with those here in just a moment.

Thank you. Is there any other questions of this applicant's presentation or his consultants? I was wondering if I might be, have your engineer? Our civil engineer? I have a question about the septic.

Yes, yes, please. His name is Mike Levin. Coming on up right now.

Hello, Commissioner, Mike Levin with Xcel Engineering.

Okay, and so during the processing of all this multitude of paperwork, I'm asking if you went out, did testing on the site, for the drip system that they mentioned and submitted that to DEH for review?

Yes. Actually, Vinji Middleton was the... the consultant we utilized to do the full septic design that was submitted and processed through the health department. And we've gotten review and comments and all the sizing of the drip system and the tanks are all based on that full analysis and included infiltration testing, PERC testing, all the required testing for the health department.

Thank you. I asked the question because one of the findings we need to look at when we're considering major use permits is the availability of public facilities, but also services and utilities.

Yes.

So I just wanted to double check and make sure that's been done already. Yes.

Yeah, and Chairman Ashburn to that point, maybe I could point out that we do have a municipal water supply for our buildings and restrooms, but we'll be utilizing the existing on-site well for site irrigation. And this use significantly reduces the water usage from the golf range itself. So this is a reduction in water use. And then again, as Mr. Levin pointed out, all appropriate testing was done. Ultimately, the septic system is approved right now. The project will need to be approved for us to pull the permit, but they have signed off on all that review.

Okay. And the reason for my question was in the staff report, I didn't see anything referencing that.

Understood.

Thank you. Thank you.

Any other questions?

I think I know the answer already, but are there currently lights for the golf course or for the golf driving range?

Currently, there are not lights on the golf course. If you saw in the beginning of the presentation there, it's a fairly dilapidated existing facility. It was approved back in the 80s without a lighting plan or nighttime lighting. So we would need to modify it to add the lights. And that's what we're doing here is we're adding, we're modifying the use, but we're also adding the lights. As Terry pointed out, they are all down shielded directed lights. We've intentionally put them away from the property line so it does not shed or shield any light out onto neighboring properties. We're required to not shed onto their property. And so it's fully compliant with that. And then even though it's a noise attenuation wall, It's 10 feet tall, so that would also block any spillage that might be coming down low at the bottom there. That nighttime graphic is a rendering, but it's fairly realistic to what it would look like if you were looking straight down on the property, and it keeps that light contained. They use these types of lighting systems in national parks for existing ski facilities. Their intent is to keep it on the run in the national parks, not on the pine trees and open forest areas.

I just have one more question and I don't know if it's from your environmental consultant, but what is the ambient noise level off of the I-15?

Yeah, so thank you for asking that question. I'll double check here, but I believe the ambient noise level already exceeds the county standard and with the installation of our noise attenuation wall, although our property would still be over because we have that ambient noise coming in. We reduced it for the neighboring properties, which is a little bit hard to comprehend. But the way the audio waves work is rather than kind of compounding and stacking on top of each other. So as an example, this was four decibels and this was four decibels. It doesn't become eight decibels. They merge and it might become six or seven decibels. That's the way the sound works there. That attenuation fence does drop it below county standards for ambient noise as well. But I believe, and I can check for the number if you'd like me to check for the number real quick. So the existing ambient noise level is 69 decibels community equivalent, which is quite high. Freeways are not quiet. Thank you.

We will now take public testimony. Madam Secretary, do we have any members of the public wishing to speak on this item?

Chair Ashman, yes. And I'd like to clarify, I did receive two speaker slips that did not have whether or not they wanted to speak or if they just wanted to register their opinion. So when I do call your name, if you can just verify that you would like to register your opinion and not speak or if you would like to speak. I have Cody Macias and Jacob Embleton. All right. And then for, was that for you? Was that Cody? And you would not like to speak. Is that correct? Thank you so much. When your name is called, please come forward and stand next, excuse me, stand near the lectern. As soon as the person before you is finished, please approach the lectern and state your name for the record and begin your comments. Jess Pontink.

Good morning, commissioners. My name is Jess Ponting. I have a PhD in leisure and tourism management, and I've been a professor of recreation and tourism management at San Diego State University for almost 20 years. San Diego State has developed a multi-college research collaborative dedicated to studying the history, culture, and contributions to well-being of board sports in our region. For the past 13 years, I've organised the annual trade conference for the surf park industry, which is many parallels to the ski park we're talking about today. These types of human-made board sports facilities are referred to within the industry as smile factories, because the operators know that they bring undeniable fun and joy that's unmistakably etched on the faces of the people who use these facilities all around the world. In addition to catalyzing broader economic rejuvenation in depressed areas in which they're constructed, creating local employment and increasing surrounding real estate values, these types of projects have proven to be wholly positive assets for their communities. They bring new participants into sports that can provide a lifetime of mental and physical well-being benefits. They provide a context and shared experience to foster new friendships and communities. They develop new skills that are directly transferable to board sports in natural settings. They also provide unique opportunities for groups of people who feel excluded from these experiences in nature because of differing physical and mental ability, financial constraints, even race and ethnicity. Beyond the local community, my SDSU students are really excited about the prospect of internships, research and employment opportunities at the park as well as using it themselves. I believe a significant amount of regional tourism will be generated as a result of the park. I also think there'll be some international tourists come to visit, particularly summertime visitors coming to complete the famous California double challenge of skiing and surfing in the same day. In summary, the experience of human-made board sport venues around the world strongly suggests that this park will be a wonderful asset for the local community and the wider region. Thank you.

Thank you.

The next speaker, Tina Woods.

Good morning. My name is Tina Woods, and I'm the property owner. And this property has needed major improvements for a very long time. And I've been trying to find a tenant, and I believe that I found the correct ones. And I think this is a great investment and a great project for this property. And it would be very beneficial for the community, as can be attested by all these wonderful people who have been here in approval of this project. So that's all I wanted to share with you today. Thank you.

Up next, I have Sven Neuschel.

Hi there. My name is Sven Neuschul. I am the president of the UC San Diego ski team, and I'm here representing my team along with six other members. We have 43 athletes on our team and a total of 100 hours driving alone to ski resorts every single season. That's 48 hours for practice weekends alone. We are actually on our way up there right now, so we stopped by to show our support. What this park would provide for us would be training for the off-season. This would be huge to actually compete with programs that have snow accessible to them or live in LA where there are skiing facilities for training just like this. This would reduce travel time by half and double our practice time, allow for actual recruitment as opposed to watching videos of people skiing. We could see them ski. And most importantly, it would keep our team together when we're not on the mountain. SoCal ski community has been dwindling for some time now due to increased prices of passes, ski gear, and gas, of course, to travel up to the mountains. And as a sport that has built one of the strongest communities that I've been a part of in my life and at UCSD, this is exactly what we need. At a time where society is rather split, this park would be a massive help to help mend that. We're not building a ski park here. I think we're building a community. So therefore, I urge you to vote yes on this. Thank you.

Next, we have David Illich and Kathleen Illich.

Before I start, we had requested each three minutes, my wife does not enjoy speaking in front of people. Our talk's about five minutes long, so if possible, I would like to take her time, if possible.

Please proceed.

Good morning. I am Dr. David Illich. I'm a recently retired private practice audiologist and have lived in North Escondido Mountain Meadow community for more than 28 years. We have nothing to do with Hidden Meadows. I saw Hidden Meadows referenced up there. We're different communities. Mountain Meadows beauty and country-style residential livability will be drastically changed with the Carve Amusement Park both being constructed and operating. The longtime tax-paying residents of Mountain Meadows have moved there for one specific reason, quiet country-style living. Jesmyn Dean, Tierra Libertia, Silvertree, Protea Gardens Road, and others will lose this if you approve this amusement park in the heart of our community. Briefly, we have eight major concerns. I will only elaborate on the last one. Number one, light pollution. They note that the lights will face down. This will not stop all of their lights, including the 146 cars. Two, dust and dirt. Our homes, all outside living, solar and cars will be covered in their construction work with dust. We've recently seen this with the Country Club area. The wind blows to the east directly at us. Three, environmental impact, including archeology, Luis Santo, Native Americans needing approval, the current animal population. Very importantly, fire. How will the residents escape? This is a one lane road. What is their fire plan for us? Four, property values. Which board member here would want to buy their family home next to an amusement park that stays open until 11 o'clock at night. How will this affect our fire insurance, water, and electricity availability? Five. Four is park availability. This is a very, very small hill. Who's going to want to ski on a small hill continually? Five, traffic. We had this problem this morning. Because congestion on I-15, Center City Parkway has become very, very, very busy, a very busy thoroughfare. This morning, it was impossible for our son to turn left on Center City Parkway to go to work. It was very difficult for us to turn right on Center City Parkway. Now you're going to add 146 cars. Are we talking about putting a stoplight there? What's going to happen with traffic? Putting this on our streets, our residential streets, is the recipe for a major automobile accident. Recent research from the University of Texas shows that crime rates are higher near theme parks. This research shows that there is more crime possible for Mount Meadow residents. Six, now, I didn't notice about, in the MD&D, it talks about synthetic snow. It sounds like what Carl got together back here is different. But synthetic snow can be hazardous and cause respiratory issues. ingestion hazards for the animals, and environmental risk. And then lastly, seven, noise pollution. As a retired audiologist, I have read the MND section thoroughly. I have too many comments on noise to present to you. They come directly from the MND. On page ES1 in the noise section, it says, quote, project construction noise levels above the county standard County of San Diego construction noise, significant threshold measure of eastern project boundary lines. And also on ES1, it says the operational noise, quote, the operational noise would exceed county standards for the eastern project for the nearby residents. And I want to say what Matt just said. The highway is currently above San Diego standards. Decibels are logarithmic. If we're going to add that, the noise of the car amusement park with the highway, we're going to be drowned. And I want to know who in this audience here wants to live next to something that's going to be that loud. The... Yeah, the noise standard land use stresses that excessive noise should not be present in residential, hospitals, and hotels. Page 15 and 16 on table 12, and I have copies of this for the board members if they like, says the project is expected to generate noise that exceeds the county standards of 75 decibels during grading and excavation of Bunny Hill. In that, they say that the nighttime standard noise will be 48.6 dB. Why is the noise going down for nighttime? Motors make the same type of noise. I don't believe that that is accurate. 5.2.2 states, quote, on-site operational noise sources from the project would result in noise levels exceeding San Diego County's nighttime noise levels of 45 dB. Backhoes, bulldozers are 77 to 85 dB. They talk about a 10-foot wall. I need to ask you, if there was a 10-foot wall right here, would you hear me? If I was a backhoe and there was a 10-foot wall right here, would you hear me? Which committee member here would enjoy this excessive noise beside their family homes? My conversations with the San Diego officials have included, quote, I would not wish this upon someone, quote. I would not be happy with this, quote. I would not want to have this next to me. And there were many other similar quotes. In closing, The vast majority of Mount Meadow residents were not properly informed of what happened. San Diego officials note that they sent out a brochure. Scott Boyer and I went door to door and less than 10% of the people knew. Our community was not properly informed. We requested that San Diego send someone here to verify their findings. We and others had hoped to retire in this beautiful, peaceful little community. there is probably no way that we're going to stop this amusement park. And if you force us to live, if you force us into our residential community, I want to know that CARV will reach out and be good and respectful neighbors. Thank you very much for your time.

Up next, we have Janet Clark.

Hi, I'm a resident of Tierra Libertia. First, I don't know if you know that there's a stream that runs through my property that's very close to where CARV is. So when they're talking about plastics or other things like septic and the well water that they're using for 500 people a day, what is that impact? That stream is the Escondido Creek and it runs to San Alejo Lagoon and then into our Pacific Oceans. So we're very concerned about water use there. Also, traffic. We live on that little sleepy street that we have maintained. Our community has maintained this private road for over 40 to 50 years. I realize that CARV does hold title to the land under the road, but the ownership does not only authorize That doesn't mean that also they can just, is there a recorded easement or agreement that shows that they can put overburden and traffic on a road that was privately maintained over 50 years? So that was one of my concerns. Traffic, there's been three fatalities on the road because it's just a two-lane road. within probably two miles in recent years. So we've had to put up with traffic. There's not even a stoplight or a left turn lane to turn onto Tierra Libertia. The traffic, when it gets bad from Temecula, they use that Center City Parkway as part of their commute. So it's a very busy road, and as I said, there's been three fatalities. My concern, too, is there's use of alcohol. Does that mean that you're just passing that there will be alcohol use also? This will also impact the area and the traffic and also accidents on this little one-lane, two-lane road on Center City. I'm sorry, I kind of lost my thought on that. So thank you for hearing me out. My main thing is the traffic concerns and alcohol use, adding to that. And then the Escondido Creek with the plastics. And I don't know if there's been any review at all with the water system there. I live less than half a mile. I can walk to that very easily. And it's like downstream. And then there's a stream that goes through my property. Thank you.

Up next, I have Michael Johanson.

So we built two houses there in 1979 for spec. We enjoyed it so much that we decided to move in. They're peaceful, beautiful horse property. that value would be lost by putting this facility there. Now, one of the problems we had is in 1985, all the residents met with the man that wanted to do a driving range. And part of allowing that was seven items that he agreed to in writing. He did two. And when the property passed on to somebody else for the lease, they violated all of them. And it's created huge problems that we've been dealing with from the beginning. You may know that the drug use and things that were there really impacted it. So we're happy to see them gone. But one of the problems we have was we told them, one of the things was no lights, nothing after dark, and they couldn't use the road. They had to come in from Jasmine Mead. I was told by the two people this morning that I talked to that represent that they would not use our road. They would only use it for maintenance and for the fire. Now I see it's the main entrance. So that's not exactly what we've been told. So we're already starting down this road where how do we stop it? How do we help make them keep with what they said they were going to do? And as Janet said, There's no left turn lane. We can barely get out of there now. We're going to add hundreds of trips a day. So if we compare some of the things that were said, that this is equivalent to other developments there, if you've ever been to the wineries, there's no comparison to what they're talking about. These are wineries that have 10, 20 people on a weekend. They're not near hundreds of people coming. Karaoke, bars, all the stuff that goes with it. One of the things about the noise is we've been dealing with the county with a noise problem. And what was discovered was that most of the noise comes from the ravine that runs from Jasmine. And it isn't just where I am. It's down the hill more. It gets noisier and noisier. So to say that a 10-foot fence is going to fix the noise isn't really factual. It might help the people directly behind it, but it doesn't help the rest of the neighborhood. to, as was brought out, they never once maintained the road, helped it, we built it, we maintain it. Now to let them come with hundreds of people a day, it's gonna really change the impact, impact our quality of life, impact our housing values. So nowhere have I seen anywhere one of these parks built within 100 feet of homes, and that's what you're going to agree to. We'd like to see if it was that way, that we could make sure that the road wasn't used for those purposes.

Thank you. I have up next Cheryl Kilmer.

Good morning. I've been here before because I'm Cheryl Kilmer. I'm the CEO and founder of Terry Incorporated. So we actually successfully received approval of an MUP back in 2008, and we will be neighbors of the Carve Ski Resort. We're thrilled to have them coming into our community. I represent thousands of people between our staff, our 900 students with autism and other developmental and learning disabilities throughout the county. And our project that got approved in San Marcos in the county, unincorporated county land, is a campus. It's called the Campus of Life, if you're not familiar with it. Unless you were here in 2008 when we received our MUP. And we have been building a 20-acre campus that provides programs that model quality services for individuals with special needs and their families, internationally known. So we are so thrilled to have the ski resort as a project in our community. We have fitness and health at the core of everything we do. We serve individuals of all ages. and from birth through the end of life, and this will be yet another facility, a recreational opportunity for our students of special needs. The CARV project and their owners are very supportive of the work that we do and the population we work with, and they're very open to having them come utilize the facilities and help our clientele access those. Also, we're talking about doing pizza prep for them because we have vocational training centers that train our students to pursue vocational opportunities out in the community. They're open to job opportunities for our interns as they graduate. So just lots of exciting opportunities for collaboration, which is what Terry is all about. And so happy to have them as new neighbors. I also think it's a great asset for the community at large, and everything that we do on our campus is to model for the community as well, share with them what it means to live like a Blue Zone community, which is a project we're working on, and that fitness and health is at the core of everything. So this just broadens the opportunities out in our North County area for our clientele and their families and our staff and their families. Thank you.

Up next, I have Peter Keller.

Good morning, commissioners. Thanks for the time. My name is Peter Keller, longtime resident of San Diego, father of three daughters, the youngest of which is blind. Last year, she had the opportunity to go to Big Bear and experience skiing. My daughter, being blind, was there with Wayfinder and they had an excellent program. I'm throwing my hat in in support of CARV because this is a place where she can go, safely play, learn to ski, hone her skills, certainly use the tube park. You don't need vision for that. My daughter's not able to play lacrosse after school with her peers. She's not able to play soccer, but this is an activity she could do. I'm hoping for a yes vote on this. Thanks so much.

And we don't have any more in-person speakers. But Sean, do we have anyone on hold on the phone lines?

We just received one caller. I'll be joining the team's invite shortly. With the caller ending with the number ending in the last four digits of 6978, please press star six to unmute your mic and please state your name for the record before you begin speaking. Caller ending in the last four digits of 6978, you are still muted. Please press star six to unmute your mic and state your name for the record before you begin speaking. You're muted. Go for it.

Marco Velasco? Can you hear me?

If we can hear you, go for it.

Begin comment. I'm calling to explain my concern about the park as well. I'm actually What?

May have audio in the background. You may want to mute the audio in the background, then you can continue speaking. You just muted your mic.

I'm sorry. I'm getting a bit lag here. Yeah. So I'm calling to a voicemail as well. I have to agree with my fellow residents here to your liberty. Yeah. Like, uh, cause the, uh, because we, we kind of live right behind the, uh, golf golf course as well and see how dilapidated it is and how to continue to be dilapidated. We have no guarantee that it's going to up as well. Up to this day, we still find golf balls in our yard. They do like their, their calluses. I left the park there. We're extending like, um, they're going to do more to Spain or possibly even worse. As far as the traffic is concerned as well, we see how bad it gets here off the Center City Parkway during the rush hours. And there's going to be an evaporating issue here. And this is also our first home we bought here. We came out here for the same reason all the other residents have as well, to get away from the noise and the traffic and overall the crowdedness of the inner city. So we're hoping like... They'll say no to this project move forward. And that's all.

Thank you for your comment. We have no additional callers.

Uh, that'll close the public testimony is, uh, any commissioners have any questions or discussion?

Let's, uh, try and wind some of these issues up. Um, I already think I know the answer to these questions, Mr. Slovic, but I think it's necessary to get them on the record. With all the light mitigation studies and efforts, the light issues comply with all county standards. Yes?

Commissioner, yes.

And as far as the noise is concerned, with all the studies and mitigation, the noise complies with all county standards, correct?

Yes, correct.

There's one last question, Mr. Chairman, and that is, What is the county's position on the discussion these folks had about the overuse of the entrance street into the park?

Commissioner Edwards to the chair. As the speaker referenced, the private road is actually located on this property. So this property owner has full use and rights to use that portion of their property. If there's any dispute regarding the use of the easement and any sort of overburdening, that would be a civil matter between the various property owners. It wouldn't be something that the county would regulate.

So the county wouldn't get involved in overlaying it if people were making complaints. That's a situation they need to deal with on their own. Do I understand that right?

That's correct, Commissioner.

That's all the questions I had, Mr. Chairman. I think this looks like good, clean fun to me, and I think it would benefit the North County for the youngsters and the younger people up there to have physical activity and the other things that the gentleman from San Diego State outline because those statements that he made were exactly the same type of things I was thinking of. I think there's a lot of young people out there that perhaps have very little to do and this would be physical activity. I'm not sure how much it would cost to get into the park. It's none of my business about the financial viability of the project. These folks have looked into this and did the studies and it looks like they're going to be contributing a great deal of money into the improvement of this site. And as far as the construction noise and dust, Mr. Slovak, I believe the county has rules and regulations concerning dust control, hours of construction activity that can go on and such like. So that probably is going to be something that is going to be a transitory issue. I mean, we all know there's going to be noise. I think there will be dust. We do the best we can with our best management practices to control that. And I wouldn't know, and I guess the applicant could tell us, but I wouldn't imagine the construction time for this would, I know Commissioner Sudbury probably answered this, would be more than five or six months, I mean, to build the entire project here. So while I understand the issue and I'm sympathetic to the issue with progress, Sometimes comes noise and dust and other things, but that's the course of human civilization and there's nothing we can do about it other than use our best judgment on it. So with all that said, whenever you're willing to consider a motion, I'm willing to make it, Mr. Chairman.

Other comments, questions?

Since we just got this letter, I would just appreciate a little bit of time to read it. This is, it seems like as far as the mitigated neglect is concerned, the microplastics, the alleged effects of them are the only issue that could be raised to not approve it. But before I dive into this, I would just, I'd like to ask our counsel here, could you give just a very brief overview of what standard of legal review we're dealing with here for the MND, whether or not the fair argument standard applies or the substantial evidence argument or test applies to this?

So the fair argument applies to the MND. But that said, you want to be looking for as much evidence in the record as possible.

I think your microphone isn't really working.

I can assist with a portion of this and then maybe council could confirm. The concerns that were raised by the Sierra Club were specific to the stormwater aspects. They did not in their comment letters use the term fair argument or request preparation of an EIR. From staff's perspective, we've looked at both the comments, the responses prepared by the developer, and the stormwater plan that was prepared. We feel like that's all been adequately addressed. Specifically, one aspect of the stormwater plan is that they have to treat for solids, including plastics. So the bioretention, the hydrodynamic separator, the things that they're going to be installing, they are specifically intended to treat for solids like plastics that could come from the hill itself. But to your point, it is a fair argument standard, although nowhere in the Sierra Club comments that they requested an EIR be prepared for the project.

Okay, well that is important because the science on plastics is a little, it's developing, I should say. I'm not a scientist or an expert in this topic by any means, but I know that. So yeah, I agree that the fair argument standard seems like the standard that would apply here. And though I didn't mention it, I think we have to apply the cautionary principle. They're requesting some sort of monitoring. From their letter, my interpretation was that they weren't super specific on exactly how they wanted to monitor it, but they wanted some sort of monitoring of perhaps the Escondido Creek, though it wasn't named. Is that accomplished by the the mitigation that you're talking about with the solid plastics?

From staff's perspective, yes. Now, is that a report with water testing? It is not, but there is maintenance obligations so to make sure that the stormwater facilities are functioning properly.

Can you expand on that, that there is a stormwater maintenance agreement? Correct. They're required to maintain the bioretention basins, which I think have proven to capture more than...

Commissioner Calvo exactly as you just stated there's an agreement with the property owner it runs with the property is going to be their obligation to maintain that system for the perpetuity of the project so that'll be that they maintain it if there's any issues with it they fix it and that system is purposely intended to treat for plastics among other things.

Okay, would our council, if the microphone is working, would you be able to provide some guidance to us on what constitutes a fair argument in terms of non-expert opinion versus expert opinion and so forth?

I haven't seen that letter, so it might help me.

Does anybody else have any comments or discussion?

I don't know if it's more of a comment or a question. I got comfortable with some of these other issues we've been discussing with plastics and noise. and traffic, I don't think they're really gonna be ultimately big concerns in reality, in my opinion. I was a little surprised to see a 7-0 approval from the Hidden Meadows Community Sponsor Group with having a recreational facility adjacent to single family homes with lights open to 10 and even 11 o'clock at night, 365 days a year. Typically, when you're dealing with light issues, it's a high school field, right? And you're talking a handful of nights a year, 365 days a year. So I originally expected to see more opposition when I started reading through the packet, and I saw the 7-0 vote, and this sort of surprised me. I hear today some of the homeowners saying the vast majority are opposed to it. But what happened at the meeting? Has anything changed since the original meeting back in January a year ago with the lights from today, what's being proposed? Yeah.

The opportunity to address the question. So yes, we actually met with the Hidden Meadows Planning Group on two separate occasions that were both publicly advertised and announced and attended by numerous residents, not just of Hidden Meadows, but of the area. It was pointed out that this area is distinctly different from Hidden Meadows by one of the speakers earlier, one of the neighbors. And that is the case, but Hidden Meadows is the planning group for this overall area. And we had attendees as far as people showing up south of Jesmondine Road at those meetings. We heard the speakers speak at the first meeting and what their concerns were, and we addressed those concerns. And that's why you have conditions that came along with that final approval. The chair for Hidden Meadows, Jim Shigala, a very experienced land use expert in his former life, and I believe at one point was involved with planning staff here as well, YOU GUYS MAY HAVE SEEN HIM IN OTHER PROJECTS, WAS VERY IN DEPTH ABOUT HIS QUERY ON US AS IT RELATED TO LIGHTING, THE MATERIAL WE'RE BEING UTILIZED HERE. AND THE MAIN FACTOR IS THIS IS NOT STADIUM LIGHTING LIKE YOU WOULD SEE AT A HIGH SCHOOL OR A COLLEGE FACILITY OR A BALL FIELD. THESE ARE TARGETED DOWN LIGHTS THAT ARE MUCH LOWER IN APPLICATION. SO THEY'RE ON SMALL MOUNTS OR POLES, NOT TALL ONES, AND THEY ARE FOCUSED RIGHT DOWN ON THE SURFACE. And although this surface is white, it is a low reflective material. It's actually a dulled or unpolished material that stops the reflectivity. And our light analysis does cover that as well in the MND. So, in the long run, what Mr. Shigala did in the first meeting was he appointed one of his board members who did have some concerns about lighting. He actually lived up on the hill about two miles away, but could see the facility as he looks down there and was concerned about reflectiveness and lighting. We then met with that representative out on the site, went through those concerns, came back for the final recommendation and was able to secure his vote along with the other board members of the planning group vote for, again, a surprising unanimous approval. We were pleased with that. It did take a lot of communication and work. And similarly, we went to the I-15 review board, which is, they're located up off of Fallbrook or in the Fallbrook area there, but met with their representatives Again, several of them are very familiar with development. Kerry Garza is part of that group there. They had extensive questions as it related to lighting, noise, landscaping, and we were able to address their concerns as well. We do feel that this is going to be, again, similar to that nighttime image you saw where the light is targeted and down low. These lights would be no taller than what you would see at a parking lot versus at a ball field where they're significantly up there. And even at ball fields, they are required to keep that spillage down. But there's a much larger ambient glow that comes out of that because of the height of those lights. Ours will be significantly reduced.

Do you happen to know if the adjoining properties will be looking down on the surface or the topography is such that they will not be?

Yeah, so we actually intentionally took our noise wall. We didn't want it to be a visual barrier for their views out to the rest of the hillsides and community. So we set that back in 15 feet from our property line. The property, the neighbors sit here and the slope slopes kind of down at an angle away from them towards the 15 freeway. So moving that fence down on the property allowed that to not obstruct their views, but also block the surface area. So if you're standing next door to it, you would be seeing, in looking at the ground, you'd be seeing our fence, not the surface. So that should help, again, contain that light. Even though the barrier is for noise, it would be an extra layer of protection for light as well. And if we do have a violation of either noise or light or dust or operational issues during this construction or operation of the facility, we are obligated to adjust those issues to become compliant. So if light is an issue, if noise is an issue, we'll have to change our operations based on that. We will have contact information for all the direct neighbors. Owners of the facility have actually offered up their emails, their cell phones for the direct neighbors. We're going to have an on-site construction manager, not just a GC, but a construction manager during construction. We'll make sure that the direct neighbors have that person's contact information during construction. And then operationally, when we actually are OPENING UP THE DOORS AND GETTING PEOPLE IN THERE. WE'LL MAKE SURE THEY'LL HAVE DIRECT CONTACT WITH THE MANAGERS OF THE FACILITY. THERE WILL BE A HOTLINE, THERE WILL BE A WEBSITE FOR THE GENERAL PUBLIC TO CONTACT, BUT IMMEDIATE NEIGHBORS WILL HAVE THE ABILITY TO REACH OUT TO THE OWNERS DIRECTLY OR TO THE MANAGERS DURING OPERATIONS IF ANYTHING HAPPENS. SO WE'RE NOT ASKING THEM TO RELY ON CODE ENFORCEMENT TO ENFORCE THIS. WE'RE HOPING THEY WOULD CONTACT US, WE WOULD MAKE AN ADJUSTMENT. But if they had to, and we were in some sort of significant violation, call up code enforcement. They come and deal with us. We have to correct that issue. So a lot of the items that are raised are certainly relevant concerns, but we do feel they've been addressed through appropriate studies and modeling with the county approved consultants that we had to hire on this. And we feel like we're in a good spot moving forward. But again, if there was a problem, we would have to make an adjustment to deal with that.

Thank you. Any other comments? While the council is sorting that out, I just want to just take a moment, just because of the size of the gathering here, sometimes the activity we're involved with isn't real apparent to the public. And this is an application for a use permit, a major use permit to put this type of facility on this property with its zoning and general plan designation. And our specific challenge is to look at findings. after they've spent all this time and money and energy to put all these technical studies together to look at these subject matters, we have to go back and weigh it against the findings of a major use permit. And they are, and I'm just gonna do this just for general public information, the location, size, design, and operating characteristics of the proposed use will be compatible with adjacent uses, residents, buildings, structures with consideration given to Number one, harmony in scale, bulk, coverage, and density. That's looking at what they're proposing to do on site. Number two, the availability of public facilities, services, and utilities, which are fundamental to make any of these types of things operate in a reasonable and normal manner. Number three, the harmful effect, if any, upon desirable neighborhood character. which always brings up a lot of interesting discussion and viewpoints. Number four, the generation of traffic and the capacity and physical character of the surrounding streets. And typically with these types of applications, they will go in, the Public Works Department will go in and take a long, deep look at how everything is operating in and around the property. And I know the property. I've done projects in that vicinity up there. I played, or not played, but I've been to the gulf range and used it in the past. Number five, the suitability of the site for the type and intensity of use or development, which is proposed. So that's the focus of what we're doing up here, because the ultimate end result here is if we're gonna make a decision, we have to make those findings. And also we look at the environmental disclosure process and make sure that that's adequate and addresses all the issues that are relevant to the property. That being said, council, have you?

Thank you, yes, I now have the Sierra Club letter so I can see that. I don't think the Sierra Club is requesting an EIR here. They're simply disagreeing with the no impact finding in the NEGDEC. But that said, the standard as you're asking about is that if a fair argument can be made that the project may cause an environmental impact, then an EIR would be appropriate. But again, Sierra Club does not seem to be suggesting that. Rather, this just seems like a disagreement over the conclusion. And I think staff's position is that the conclusion is appropriate, and I can defer to Mr. Slovik to explain the support for that.

Commissioner Sebelica through the Chair, not much to add to that. From our perspective, we've looked at it, and based on the stormwater plan that's been prepared, we think that it'll adequately handle and address the issue of the plastics.

Thank you for that, both of you. I've now read the letter from the Sierra Club and the response. I think that even though they're not suggesting in the EIR, I think the implication is that they are. If they don't agree with the MND, then they're sort of necessarily suggesting in the EIR. But even so, I think that The speculation on the microplastics is in fact speculation and at this point conjecture and that's just a reflection of the fact that the science is not necessarily advanced enough to prove the claims that it will have a substantial effects based on the evidence available, the facts, the most recent research presented to us by the applicant. I feel confident that the filtration system will adequately mitigate the negative, potentially negative environmental impacts, so I can comfortably approve this project and the MND.

Any other comments, questions? Having heard all the public testimony, is there a motion?

Mr. Chairman, I'll move staff recommendation, and I think I've driven past the particular location 700, 800 times over my lifetime. I hate to age myself. I think before Interstate 15 was there, so I will miss seeing the green, but I will enjoy seeing the young people having activities and hope to take my grandchildren there. So I move staff recommendation.

I'll second. Any comments before we call for a vote? I would just like to personally reflect on this just a moment. I live in La Mesa. I live within one mile of Interstate 8. And the noise from that highway, and then also we have Fletcher Parkway in between Interstate 8 and where I live. The noise from that highway and that boulevard is deafening during rush hour. even though we're set back quite a ways from it. So for this particular neighborhood, I have some sympathy for the situation that exists out there. Interstate 15. And folks, there's been a lot of discussion about metrics and how to deal with traffic, and we've evolved to vehicle miles traveled. Everybody should become familiar with that. because there was dialogue about using that as creating a tax base. And we have a situation with I-15 where we have 150,000 average daily trips coming from Riverside for people commuting to work in San Diego. And in addition to that, you have a boulevard next to 15 on the east side coming out of Escondido. And then you have Jesmondine Road. And so I have complete sympathy for the setting and I understand how it operates and it doesn't operate. And also the mess that is the freeway bridge and the on ramps and off ramps just to the north. And so It's, as they go through their permit process, if they are to get approved, I'm sure the Public Works Department will be looking into traffic and other things in the immediate vicinity, particularly for safety. And then also for volume and traffic control. And may have them participate if it's appropriate. That being said, Madam Secretary, please call the vote.

Commissioners, when your name is called, please vote. Chair Ashman?

Yes.

Commissioner Calvo? Yes. Commissioner Edwards? Yes. Commissioner Sudbury?

Yes.

And Commissioner Sabalico?

Yes.

Let the record show that Item 2 passes by vote. Item two passes by a vote of five in favor, none opposed, and two absent. Can I have your attention? Can I have your attention? The meeting has not concluded just yet. So can we have the noise volume? Can we lower that as you exit? Thank you.

Folks, if you could. OK, yeah, we will now hear the director's report.

At the last few months of 2025, there were two zoning items that we brought to you for updates. One was the socially equitable cannabis program that'll be going to the Board of Supervisors next week on Wednesday, January 14th, for them to consider the program and give direction to finalize the ordinances. And then on February 11th, the Board of Supervisors will be hearing the zoning ordinance update related to wineries and healthcare trailers that we presented to you in the fall as well. That concludes our update. One more item. While we briefed it to you at the last hearing, just another update. We will be on January 14th also bringing an update on VMT. This will be the update to amend the Transportation Study Guide to comply with a court-directed writ that we received regarding the item.

OK. Our next scheduled planning Commission hearing will be on Friday, February 6th to 2026. That being said, this meeting is now adjourned.