Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Planning Commission will hereby commence.

Please stand for Pledge of Allegiance.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

I'll call the roll. Vice Chairman Carroll here. Secretary Fosdick? Here. Council Member Gerbach?

Here.

Commissioners Heft?

Yes.

And LaForte? Here. Also attending is Community Development Director Adkin. Is there a motion to accept the agenda as amended or restrained?

I move to accept the agenda as presented.

I second.

All those in favor? Aye. Opposed? Motion passes. Is there a motion to approve the meeting minutes of May 13th as submitted?

So moved. I second.

All those in favor?

Aye.

Passed. Under the Open Meetings Act, any citizen may come forward at this time and make comments if the person is requested but not required to state their name and address. Comments will be limited to three minutes per person. Seeing none, I'll go on to discussion. Tonight, we're going to talk about the update on the gathering space.

Good evening, commissioners. Dan Swallow, city manager, and I want to follow up with our discussion that occurred at your main meeting relative to the downtown gathering space and specifically some of the additional design details that the planning commission wanted to see prior to their discussion of the site planning. So, with that CV, I believe in your package, you should have received electronic copies of the plans, including the overall site plan as well as a profile use of both the cross sections and elevations of the buildings. So, with that this evening, I'd like to take a look at the proposed elevations, some of the cross sections, some of the drainage modifications, lighting fixtures and scope of where the dividing lines would be relative to what the private development would incur and what the city portion would occur. So, with that slide. So as you can see on the site plan, this provides a little more detail in terms of materials, in terms of dimensions for the site, as well as how it relates to the existing buildings. I can see it highlights some of the perimeter sidewalks that would provide ADA access to the entire site, around the entire site. You see that some of the Some of the slope to platforms, there are some of the ramps there relative to various access points around the site as well as the different materials will be most likely a stamp concrete in the orange there that you see for the stage for the patio adjacent to the existing building as well as for the. So, with that also right now, we have the turf area with several, several landscaping features trees as well as potential harbor adjacent to the site. Proposed as part of the overall site plan. So next slide. Here you see the elevation, some of the dimensions for the site, as well as the, you can see the slopes of the ramps in the back, those dotted lines along the retaining walls. You can see the overhead lighting, some light pictures that will be proposed, as well as the dimensions and location for the decks and the patios off of the back of the building. As well as you see the stage there, that will be a level area. Here's elevation of the back of the building with some of the patios and decks that will be added to the backs of the existing building. From South Ann Arbor Street, so with that, those are some of the additional details. I think we have 1 more slide. This just shows the breakout of the different property boundaries relative to what's owned by the developer private side as well as what's owned by the city. And as it is proposed developer will be making all the improvements to the private portion of the property. And then the city will be making improvements. Existing parking lot, so we can go back and show you any additional details. We do have also Mr. from Beck and Raider is the signer for the project. And so we can answer more detailed questions about the design that you may have.

Kind 1 question sure. Hey, the turf area is you describe it? Is that artificial turf?

No, it's proposed as natural turf or grass.

Do you think that will hold up?

So it will have to be maintained each year. Certainly, there will be a maintenance issue as well as after events. I have to take a look at that. But right now, in talking with the developer, it's cost prohibitive for the artificial turf. Do you have any questions for designer?

I don't have any questions on the design at the moment, but I, um, I was obviously I was not here at the last meeting. Um, so I just wanted to know a little bit more about, um, my understanding is that this doesn't have to go through planning. Um, and I was just wondering what the basis for why does not have to go through planning.

Well, basically, in looking at the ordinance, it doesn't trigger any of the specific site plan criteria requirements. I spoke with director.

Commission he agreed it would not require a formal site plan approval is that did you also take into account the enabling act statute requirements like this the state statute or requirements about what has to go through planning because at least when I took a quick look at it I pulled it up the like the section 125 3861 talks about construction of certain projects and areas covered by municipal master plans that require A street square park playground, public way ground, or other open space, public building, or other structure shall not be constructed or authorized for construction and area covered by a municipal master plan. Unless, uh, um, it was open. Sorry has submitted submitted to the planning commission and, uh, been approved by the planning commission.

So, obviously, our ordinance dictates what areas and what criteria that we have for site plan approval and so that was that's a local ordinance and what's regulated by our local ordinance as well as the city master plan.

Right? But our ordinance is also subject to the requirements of the state statute that enables. The planning commission's existence, right? We've had that. We had a big training on planning the planning commission's role a couple of months ago and that so I'm just those 2 things have to work together because the state statute actually, like, supersedes. The local ordinance and the local ordinance has to comply with the state statute. So I just, I mean, I guess my question is, I'm not a land planning attorney, but I wondered, have we talked to our council about what whether or not this is required? I just want to make sure that we are following all the proper procedures and we're doing all the right things. So that something doesn't come back to us on the back end and and bite us in the butt.

It has this has been presented to city council and so at this point, you know, we're trying to keep both the planning commission and city council fully informed as to where the status is what the what the design elements will be. And just when, you know, looking at. formal site plan, there's no structure, no building being constructed on the site, and there's no additional parking that's being constructed as part of the site. So in speaking with Director Atkin, we did not feel it rose the level of requiring a site plan approval.

Okay. Well, I guess I would just love to hear if the council also agrees with that. Okay. That's my point.

Which section were you referencing?

125.3861.

And which act?

The Michigan Planning Enabling Act.

125.3861.

I guess from our perspective, we just have to have clarification. Does that comply or apply to this situation?

Yeah, I would just like to know from an attorney who does that kind of law for a living.

So for the stage and grassy area, will you be putting up seats for certain events? Or is that meant to just be a standing?

area for to watch what's ever on the stage so obviously a couple options there is the patrons could bring their own you know portable seating or for an event you know they could either contract to bring have seating brought in as we do for you know many other events you know like an Oktoberfest and those types of things so that'd be an option well as well to bring seating in for specific events

Any further questions. Um, yes.

Good.

Okay. Um, is, uh, is there any questions from the, uh, audience to our planning to our city manager?

At this point, there's not really an open meeting component of this. So I know I made statements that I had to give the chance.

Um.

Anything else or I didn't need to design elements. No, that was an accurate description except for any detailed questions. Thank you very much.

Next item on the agenda is the sign ordinance update. Chris, would you like to go to that?

Yeah, so in the memo that accompanied this rough draft, I was taking the current sign ordinance and trying to consolidate it and make it a little clearer.

It seemed to jump around in different areas. Very difficult to follow by myself on it.

UNNECESSARY LANGUAGE THAT WAS OVER EXPLANATORY AND SUBSECTION A THERE IN THE FIRST ONE PROTECT THE RIGHT PROTECT THE PUBLIC RIGHT IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE FIRST AMENDMENT OF THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION AND THAT ALSO FOLLOWS THE excuse me, not prohibit the content of signs only under certain circumstances are we allowed to.

That's allowed by state and federal law, but there were some instances throughout the signed ordinance that referenced or alluded to a certain type of sign specifically around the state FEDERAL OR VOTAL ELECTIONS, THE AMOUNT OF SIGNAGE I WAS ABLE TO PUT OUT.

YES, IT DIDN'T EXPLOSIVELY SAY POLITICAL SIGNS OR CANDIDATE SIGNS. SIGN AT A CERTAIN TIME DURING THE YEAR OR ELECTION PERIOD THAT CAN BE PUT OUT. SO JUST TO HEAR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION THAT WAS TAKEN OUT, THERE'S INFORMATION ABOUT IF PROPERTY GOES UP FOR SALE, HOW LONG A SIGN CAN BE OUT. AGAIN, THAT IS A DIRECT CORRELATION TO THE CONTENT OF THE SIGN THAT WOULD BE ALLOWED TO BE PUT OUT THERE. IN MY EXPERIENCE, WHETHER IT'S A POLITICAL ANYTHING LIKE THAT, IT'S EITHER A TEMPORARY RESIDENTIAL SIGN OR A TEMPORARY COMMERCIAL SIGN. THAT'S IT.

REGULATE THE SIZE AND THE LOCATION OF THEM.

SO THERE WAS A LOT OF CONSOLIDATION OF THAT IN HERE, MAKING IT MORE CLEAR WHAT SIGNS DO NEED PERMITS, WHICH SIGNS DON'T, AND TYPES OF SIGNS THAT ARE PROHIBITED. THERE'S ADDITION OF A FEW TYPES OF SIGNS. I'M SURE EVERYBODY'S SEEN THE FEATHER FLAG SIGNS, THE VERTICAL SIGNS THAT POP UP. WE GET ARGUMENTS THAT, WELL, So it's a banner and what it's made out. So to avoid that, uh, maybe give a definite definition of the feather flag. There's multiple feather flag or, uh, feather banner or a flutter flag is what they're commonly referred to as. that causes motion that could be a distraction. So that was clarification piece. So with the different standards that were currently in the current ordinance, I transferred all of them and consolidated them into two separate tables. One for signs that need permits and one sign or signs that do not need permits. I took all the AREA AND JUST TRANSFERRED THOSE OVER SOME OF THEM I DID MAKE SOME MODIFICATIONS TO. AND THEN LIKE WITH THE GROUND SIGNS AND STUFF MADE PRETTY EXPLICIT WHAT THE HEIGHT COULD BE. ANOTHER THING THAT WAS DONE WITH THE AREA SIGNS IS IT WOULD GET APPLICANTS WHERE THEY'RE CONFUSED EVEN THOUGH IT SAYS ONE

AREA, 32 SQUARE FEET. JUST TOOK THAT OUT. ONE SIGN FACE IS 16 SQUARE FEET. IF IT'S FLAT, IF IT'S NOT MORE THAN I BELIEVE 10 INCHES, THE SIGN FACES AREN'T MORE THAN 10 INCHES AWAY FROM EACH OTHER, IT'S ONE SIGN. SO YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO MAKE A LARGER SIGN.

SO THOSE WOULD BE LIKE IN THE INSTANCE OF TEMPORARY GROUND SIGNS. RIGHT NOW I BELIEVE THEY'RE ALLOWED UP TO FOUR. A LOT OF PAPERS IN FRONT OF ME. FOR TEMPORARY GROUND SIGNS, WHICH DO NOT REQUIRE A PERMIT, SO IN THE RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT, IT WOULD READ AN AGGREGATE SIGN AREA OF 24 SQUARE FEET. WE DIDN'T PUT HOW MANY ARE PERMITTED, BUT NO SINGLE SIGN CAN BE GREATER THAN SIX SQUARE FEET.

OR SIX SQUARE FOOT SIGNS.

THEY CAN HAVE A FOUR OR ANY PORTION THERE OF THEM. AND SAME THING WITH COMMERCIAL SIGNAGE. YOU CAN NARROW THAT DOWN OR CONSOLIDATE IT. THEN IT'S JUST TEMPORARY BANNERS. INSTEAD OF HAVING A LARGE FOUR BY EIGHT OR 32 SQUARE FEET, BETWEEN IS 30 DAYS, AND WE CAN TRACK THOSE BECAUSE THEY ARE, THEY REQUIRE A PERMIT, WHEREAS THE OTHER ONES DON'T.

WHAT ELSE DID WE ADD?

CONSOLIDATED ALL THE MONUMENT SIGNS. THERE WAS A REFERENCE TO TWO OR THREE ZONING DISTRICTS WHERE SIGNS ARE PERMITTED, AND THOSE ZONING DISTRICTS ARE NO LONGER EXISTING.

SO I TOOK THAT OUT, TOOK THAT INFORMATION OUT.

EDIT THE GRAPHICS TO SHOW HOW SIGNS ARE MEASURED, YOU KNOW, FOR MONUMENT SIGNS. A LOT OF QUESTIONS, WELL, IS THE BASE INCLUDED IN THAT?

NO, BUT IT DOES DETERMINE THE HEIGHT. IT IS INCLUDED IN THE HEIGHT, BUT NOT THE TOTAL SIGN AREA.

INCIDENTAL SIGNS BEING RESTAURANTS NOW THEY HAVE YOU KNOW THE AREA FOR MOBILE ORDERS OR THINGS LIKE THAT THOSE WE CAN RECOMMEND BECAUSE IT'S NOT YOUR TYPICAL HANDICAP SIGN BREAKING BETWEEN THESE HOURS TYPE SIGNS IT'S SPECIFIC TO THAT TYPE IT'S NOT REALLY A WALL SIDE. IT COULD BE ARRANGUED. SO JUST EXPLICIT ABOUT THAT. ONE CHANGE THAT I'M PROPOSING IS FOR BUILD BOARDS. RIGHT NOW, BUILD BOARDS, IT'S A COMMITTED USE. AND IT GOES TO C1. FROM A PERMITTED SIGN TO CONDITIONAL USE BECAUSE THESE THINGS, IF THEY'RE LIT UP, IF IT'S NEAR A RESIDENTIAL NEIGHBORHOOD, AS STAND-ALONE SIGNS, STAND-ALONE MONUMENT SIGNS OR STAND-ALONE WALL SIGNS IN CERTAIN ZONING DISTRICTS. NOW, IF THEY WANTED TO DO A WALL SIGN, DIGITAL SIGN. SO I'M PROPOSING THAT WE DON'T ALLOW THOSE AS WALL SIGNS. AND THEN THEY COULD ONLY, THEY'RE ONLY PERMITTED AS PART OF AN INTEGRATED INTO A MONUMENT SIGN.

DRIVE-THROUGH BOARDS.

AND ONE, AS I WAS THINKING ABOUT THIS, SO FOR ALL SIGNS RIGHT NOW IN CERTAIN ZONING DISTRICTS, DEPENDING ON WHERE THEY ARE, IT DOESN'T EXPLICITLY STATE THE NUMBER IF A CORNER LOT OR A DOUBLE FRONTAGE LOT CAN HAVE A SIGN ON EACH THE AGGREGATE OF THEM DOES NOT EXCEED THE ALLOWABLES AREA. Also, taking into consideration I've run into this in other communities. But so this, the sign regulations, there's a lot of information in there. A lot of.

back line. All temporary signs have to be five feet back.

There's just a lot of redundancies in that or conflicting information. And in that case, if I didn't take the lesser of the two measurements, I took an average of them. But, you know, if somebody just has a regular residential yard sign that's stuck in, I think three feet DEFINITIONS ARE UPDATED. THERE WAS SOMETHING ELSE. CLEAR VISION.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE THAT FOR THE ENVIRONMENTAL.

ARTICLE 7, ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AND DESIGN PROVISIONS. THE WAY IT'S WRITTEN NOW, I HAVE READ IT the graphics in there. TO TAKE THE CURRENT SITE ORDINANCE, THE ORDINANCE IS ABOUT 18 PAGES LONG. THIS CONSOLIDATED IT DOWN TO ABOUT 10 PAGES AND CLEARED IT UP AND PUT EVERYTHING IN THE RIGHT AREA TO MAKE IT FLOW A LITTLE BETTER SO THERE'S NOT ANY JUMPING BACK AND FORTH. PUTTING THOSE TABLES THERE SO EVERYTHING IS ITEMIZED IN THE SAME LOCATION. Is this permitted? Is this not permitted and jumping back and forth? Um, just easier to understand for for everyone.

Okay, thank you. There's a lot to deal with here. Uh, 1st of all, anyone have any questions?

No question. I mean, 1 of my things is the same is that is trying to. Clean this up is a good thing, because I know there's some confusion in it, but for me. Trying to make larger signs or making things more by right the larger science and that type of situation. That's what we were trying to avoid when we did this last revision of the of the sign ordinance. So, for me, the biggest thing is and duration size, the number of signs, the height. And then, of course, we talked earlier, um, animation, lighting, um, windows and the biggest thing is proliferation. So. What are we doing in that situation? The 1 thing is you mentioned about clear vision. We did have an issue with institutional signs and then directional signs. And how those are placed in height and all that and. The question ends up being, I know that we may have a variance request for some of that, but I think that's when it seems reasonable. The billboard sign has me just worried and I know we talked about that earlier. Whatever we can do to make that limited and I think you proposed setbacks and those type of things too But I know that was one of the things that we had managed to basically eliminate in the city I know you can't completely eliminate it But from the perspective of they were such an eyesore that we don't have that concern or that issue at this point in time So whatever we can do to prevent prevent that type of proliferation or whatever is definitely what we need to do and The only other 1, and when you mentioned conditional use, how does that. Play out, and I guess is understanding where you would do conditional use for signage. And making sure that it's uphold that we can uphold it in a court and whatever those processes are, will those be outlined in terms of the standards are.

THEY HAVE TO BE IN SETBACKS, LUMINATION, DISTANCE FROM OTHER BILLBOARDS. A LOT OF THE INFORMATION IN HERE COMES FROM THE HIGHWAY ADVERTISING ACT. SO THAT IS REFERENCED IN HERE.

And then the only other one is, I know we've talked about, you know, duration and you have like 30 days on and 30 days off of that. But we've had such frequent violation of signage just being placed in the city and areas and stuff like that. That becomes more of a code enforcement issue, not necessarily a signage concern, correct? Correct, yeah.

ANIMATED SIGN. I HIGHLIGHTED IT HERE SOMEWHERE. SO CURRENTLY IT IS LISTED AS A PROHIBITED SIGN WITH EXCEPTIONS. So animated signs as defined, and right now it's defined as any sign that uses movement or change of lighting to depict action or create a special effect or scene. Kind of blurs the line with an electronic sign also. SO CURRENTLY PROHIBITED EXCEPT NON-PERMANENT LIGHT PROJECTIONS SHOWN SUCH THAT LIGHT PROJECTION IS CONTAINED ENTIRELY ON THE SURFACE OF BUILDING WITH THE BUILDING OWNER'S EXPRESS PERMISSION BETWEEN 5 PM AND MIDNIGHT EACH DAY. SO NO LONGER THAN 40 DAYS. WHAT THIS COMES DOWN TO IS THE SEASONAL SIGNS DOWNTOWN IS PROJECTED FROM ONE SIDE TO THE OTHER OR THE PROJECTION a garage door when it's shut with snowflakes falling or lights.

So I don't know what your temperature is on that. Frankly, a lot of people do that. They've got these rotating disks with a light and it just shows snowflakes coming and going off the front of your house. Which is not technically signage.

It's not commercial advertisement.

anything.

Now, if somebody downtown, one business owner is shining a light up on their building or the neighbor's building advertising their store, it would be a sign. But if it's season's greetings or anything like that, I don't know how you can really regulate something of that.

So that regulation is not in here?

It's in the current ordinance. BUILDING WITH THEIR CONSENT, HOW IT'S DEFINED IS VERY SIMILAR TO AN ELECTRONIC SIGN, WHICH

What counts as a sign and, you know, like, is there a way to, like, sort of just make sure that the definition of sign itself somehow makes sure to exclude that type of use such that, like, an animated sign would automatically fall outside of the definition because it's because it's. Those things, as you were saying, are not a sign.

Yeah, it's because it's not.

I guess my question would be, well, is it intent? Because if you're intending to project something like that at Christmas time, you are trying to draw traffic and you're trying to bring in, if you're in a commercial area. So is it the issue that we would have a definition within a commercial area, but not so much necessarily in a residential, for residential use?

You can tighten it up because it doesn't, this doesn't explicitly give, IT JUST TALKS ABOUT M-DOT AND GOING OVER A RIGHT-OF-WAY. SO WHAT WOULD PROHIBIT SOMEBODY HERE ON EAST MICHIGAN, NEITHER ONE OF THE COMMERCIAL BUILDINGS, WHICH USED TO BE RESIDENTIAL OR RESIDENTIAL OR RESIDENTIAL, SHOOTING SOMETHING LIKE THAT ACROSS THE STREET ONTO THEIR NEIGHBOR'S HOUSE AND THEIR NEIGHBOR SAYS IT'S OKAY. THERE'S NO HEIGHT RESTRICTIONS ON THIS. HEIGHT SO AS NOT TO PROJECT ONTO PEDESTRIANS OR VEHICLES. KIND OF SUBJECTIVE. BUT THERE'S NOT A WHOLE LOT OF DEFINITIVE INFORMATION IN HERE OTHER THAN 40 DAYS BETWEEN 5 P.M. AND MIDNIGHT WHICH WE DON'T HAVE STAFF HERE TO

I have a feeling that was put in at the time. MDOT had requirements to do that, and that might be part of it. I mean, history, there should be something in our notes of something back when that was done. Yeah. Because it hasn't been that long. I think it's probably just been since COVID. A couple years. This was updated in 2023, 2024. That probably came into place probably two years prior to that, something like that.

Is it just, I mean, would it be solved by the fact that, like, you're just not, you don't project it on somebody else's house? Like, the ones that you're residential are projected onto your own house, right? So, like, if you just get rid of the idea that it has to be, you know, get rid of the idea that you can project something on some other building other than your own.

Just.

What is explaining in my opinion isn't a sign right or just state it can't be projected across the street So obviously then a car driving through it would be distracted So just saying you can't go across the street residential or commercial

owners.

The ones that are across, like on the other side of Brecken and that one?

Main Street was behind it and then permission, I think, was given by the two property owners to allow it to happen when that occurred because the projection equipment sits on Herbie's Crossing and then projects across onto... Whose desire is it?

The city's? Because if it's the city's, doesn't the city get to exclude it? Main Street?

I think at the time it was Main Street. The city allowed it. Do we allow, so say if that was projecting signs, do we allow projection of signs on the buildings? If you're your own building and you're projecting that, so do we have something in the statement that says you can't project?

It would come down to lighting standards. It can't be over, you know, for an electronic sign or any lighted sign, it can't exceed 0.5 lumens at property boundaries. Which is exceeding that right when it leaves the edge of the building, if it's in downtown.

What about political sense like that? What about, you know, I have a garage on Northern harbor and I somehow project on my garage door. I don't have a good answer for that. I think I would consider that because of, you know, technology today.

I mean, for me, the whole, it's the animation, it's the projections, the LEDs, it's all that the consideration that we didn't have this stuff. I mean, it's getting more and more as we've had it, but we just haven't permitted it. And as we start looking at this and you start thinking about it. What is a sign versus what is a seasonal. Decoration and what is what is the intent I guess is what I mean, so there must be some definition of those out there for that type of situation.

Seasonal.

Well, and that's where we raise the issue when we get to seasonal where, as I mentioned, there's buildings that have put up lighting and they have it every single month. They turn the color, make it a different season. So, and it turns into being more of a signage because it's to draw attention not necessarily to. So, I mean, that's kind of the attempt when you do lighting and stuff and that's. I mean, I don't want to be too restrictive, but we don't want it to become something that it becomes like we talked about, a circus.

It was LED string lights, either fixed or they can get obnoxious. So I can fix these, but strobe flashing, oscillating, a fixed two are located within the interior or a fixed two. lights including rope lights fiber optics or other similar types of lights intended to draw attention to a sign business building or structure so those are prohibited that is the definition okay that is the definition I need to change For the string lights, because it just states exterior, but change it to interior also, because I think the 1 thing that's helpful to you that you've been putting in there as examples and we talked about that too.

So what are we can put in there as examples that can provide a little more clear. Understanding if that's permissible in a code in ordinance now. Then providing that kind of thing helps provide more clarity. Examples of the type of type of those type of thing where we, if there's certain situation where we believe there's kind of ambiguity or concern that we could actually identified that way.

I mean, we could go as far as to say that outline the exterior any part of the exterior of the building, which would include windows, doors, things like that. Now, if it's. Decorative lighting or something like that that's.

I'll just say after market additions, it's almost where you're putting temporary lighting and it becomes part of the permanent lighting of the building. Yes.

And we're still talking, though, like, limiting that concern to.

Certain commercial, right?

And also certain, right? Right. Because obviously, otherwise you're going to ruin everybody's Christmas Christmas.

Okay, but if it comes 4th of July and the same lights are still there, right?

Maybe, maybe, and maybe it's the idea that they're, they're used for a single designated season seasonal lighting. Right? But, like, in a way that allows it to not change colors for each season such that they're up 365 days a year.

What is the rush building? Yeah, that has a lot of lighting on it at times during the year, which isn't holiday lighting. Yeah. say holiday no i know that's what i'm saying like thinking about like seasonal but limited to single season at like time living of single season at a time right or like that's not 30 days something like that identify specific i don't know recognize seasonal but i don't know if you get into when you start getting into that then you're going to start getting into expression of freedom of expression and everything else so it's really more the issue of is it just used as seasonal decoration

I guess maybe it makes sense to back into how we phrase it by just sort of brainstorming exactly what are the examples of things you don't want and where don't we want them. And then maybe that allows you to back into where does this go or how do we define it in a way that covers those things and doesn't cover these other things.

I wonder, I don't know. I'm pretty good. I mean, we identified a lot of that, but it can example. I always keep bringing up. It's like the happy happy pizza in Ann Arbor. It's only where they put neon around every single window around every crevice on the building and. It becomes such a distraction, or even, you know, just over garish. It doesn't that you want you want to have allow some of that kind of design and, you know, neon lamps and signs and things like that. But to outline the whole building, the intent is, it's a giant sign. It's not a. It's not just a kind of part of the decoration or it's not intended to be just a celebration for a period of time. It's intended to be for the whole period of the year.

Yeah, so I guess that's the big question is, like, where do you draw the line between lights and signs? When does a light become a sign?

Well, yeah, I mean, if it's not accident lighting, or permanently affixed or something like that, or hardwired in, that type of stuff. That'd work.

I had a question on your directional signs. I know realtors have open house... Open house signs, especially if the house is into a residential area, they'll put an open house on the main street guiding you in. Can they put those signs between the sidewalk and street?

No.

No, they're not. And unfortunately, those open houses happen on the weekends.

We're not around.

And fortunately, realtors are good at picking those open houses over.

If we come in on Monday and they're still there, we'll take them. How about, I mean, the same thing goes for garage sales. I mean, people have garage sales and they want to tell you where it is.

If that's considered an off-premise sign, and if we see it, we confiscate them. Weekly, we get these signs, stacks of them.

I guess if it were just for a day or so, I mean, you don't want to put the directional sign into somebody's property. Yeah. Uh. So, between the sidewalk and the street is the. Optimal spot for it. And if it's only especially like a garage sale or open house, that's a one-day affair.

Yes I mean if it's in the right away though, I mean that's so property if it's on the other side of the sidewalk on the private side and they have If it's there we can only assume that What if it's in the right away? Then we confiscate it

It could be a hazard. I mean, you're not allowed to put signs on telephone poles. That stopped a long time ago because that's illegal and considered a hazard.

I mean, if you may just have a small directional or a small sign in the right of way for a day. I don't see that as a withdrawal.

I know because if we're going to let a resident do it, then we have to let a business that's going to do it if they have a sale going.

Well, businesses normally are in main street. So, I mean, you don't have a business into a subdivision where you have to make 4 turns.

Not necessarily, but, you know, they could try to get traffic in from other places, you know, coming down maple lab. There's a sale going on downtown.

They don't want to try to get traffic down there. You know, well, ultimately the sign in the right away, if we don't take it out, we're viable for it. Correct. Yeah. So if it's a big sign or concern and it becomes a traffic hazard or something of that nature, it's our fault because we didn't take care of it.

I only bring this up because it's a irritant to me. The Washington farm council sized and changed in the last 6 months. They took Washington farm council with affairs and they went to a small digital kind of sign. It's too small. I've been told on good authority that township said that's as big as it could be. I know we all worry about too large of signs. Is there anything in this that says too small the signs?

No.

I think I'd look at that because it's a hazard. You're driving down the road and you want to read the sign and you can't because it's too small.

I think what we allow is sufficient for even a digital sign as part of a monument sign. So if somebody had a

monument sign that is allowed to be they still have the big Washtenaw Farm Council set that says Washtenaw Farm Council but this is the events that are happening the next weekend yeah but they could have a monument sign that is

WHERE IS THE AREA? WE PROVIDE 25 SQUARE FEET. THAT'S A BIG SIGN. THAT'S IN THE DOWNTOWN OR OTHER ZONING DISTRICTS. IT'S 32 SQUARE FEET. AND IF WE ONLY ALLOW, YEAH, IF WE ALLOW ELECTRONIC MESSAGE BOARD SIGN ONLY INTEGRATED INTO A MONUMENT SIGN, THAT CAN BE UP TO 50% OF THE TOTAL SIGN AREA. SO IF IT'S, I CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT I JUST SAID.

Well, see, that's getting pretty small if you haven't if you start out with 5 by 5. For 25 square feet, and then you're only allowed to put half. As a digital, I mean, that's. That's perfect example of being too small.

Yeah, that's in. The downtown area, I mean, but.

In the bigger areas where it's 32 square feet, the problem with the farm, the farm council ground ones, they didn't want to remove the big sign that was there. So they had to retrofit it to what was there had they changed the whole sign. They probably would have got a different, they probably could have could have got it. So I think that was kind of their own choice. So, they went from a non, they kept a non compliant situation and then put the, they put the new digital sign board on it, which isn't big enough to. And it also doesn't look like it was probably an expensive type signage. Oh, sure, yeah. But I don't know what they allow in Lodi Township either. But in our case, I mean, we've allowed pretty good-sized signs already for digital. I mean, I've looked at a couple new monument signs, and then the monument plus the sign, they're good size. I mean, one of the examples is down across from the cemetery. We have the construction construction. That's a big sign. And so that's more of my concern is that. We need to look at making sure that our signage doesn't overpower where it's located, especially when you're looking at professional versus commercial.

Again, that comes down to what is currently permitted.

So, perhaps if we brought back examples of signage or whatever that we think could be a concern or an issue and how to look at that in terms of how would it work? I mean, part of the thing is signs need to be able to be seen, but. Our goal is not to overpower everybody with signage because that's what we got away from.

Yeah.

I guess Chris, what else at this point? It's this is just for us for review right now and then to evaluate for the, we'll bring it back in another.

Yeah, we don't want that. There's no public hearing that's going on for this. I don't want to kick this can down the road until it's ready.

And I just had some, as I said to you before, I have some just nitpicky things that I saw because that's what I do for a living. So if we want to do what we did with the last one, which is just like get a digital version and like, you know, mark it up and send it on to other people to look at too. I can just make changes and comments and or like, you know, comments and you can take them or leave them.

One thing I think that would be really a good idea is to get more public feedback. I mean, people don't realize what Is scheduled in our planning commission and, uh, does so I, what I'm saying, I think we should advertise either news or the same pose that we are considered that are signed regulations and solicit feedback. So we.

We have very few residents and all business owners that say our sign regulations are too restrictive and they want bigger.

You know, if a good percentage of our business owners think they're too restrictive, then maybe we should consider making them less restrictive. Look like Vegas. I said less restrictive. I didn't mean full bore. And we should give the public, just besides announcing a public hearing, which most people don't follow, but I think this is really something that we would like and need public comment. So we should really solicit that. Put something on the website. No one reads the damn website. We can't mail something to everybody. We can advertise in a newspaper that, you know, we're having a review of our sign regulations.

Between 150 and 200 dollars.

Yeah, I mean that information will be printed in the paper. We do have public notice. It's in the paper plus. It's advertised based on our website. It's also put in the FYI. Well, not the FYI. It just depends on when it's being published. But that information is out there. If Sun Times and the Saline Post want to highlight that as part of their thing, that generally that's what happens. We do what's required. I mean, I don't disagree that we need to have public input, but that's part of the thing that we do for every 1 of our standard that we apply to every situation. So we have to be consistent in how we approach that. Otherwise we can get challenged on that too.

You don't think that. Advertising or letting people know. For 1 issue is. We have to do everything exactly the same.

We have to be consistent because if we're trying to, if we aren't doing that, somebody could challenge back saying, well, you're and that's just like, what we just talked about for the site plan thing is to make sure we're planning is managing things consistently. Um, I mean, that's standard that we've adopted planning wants to have more done for that and we can direct it to be done that way. To have more information, but then again, that'll incur costs and trying to figure out how you advertise that provided. I mean, we've tried to do that and I mean, that's kind of type of thing that we did with the, we can do a town hall. That's what we do it, but that's what the public hearing is. So we would promote that saying. And I try to promote what's happening at our planning during the council meetings too. So we have that out there, which then should be picked up by the reporters that are paying attention for that. So, it's up to how the chair or how the board wants to move forward with an advertising that thing. So I don't disagree. We have to have more public input, but that's basically how we've been doing is that we required by the state and by our ordinance to publish in whatever is a reasonable. Paper here, and I guess now it's sometimes are we doing it in our news?

Basically, that's all there is.

Okay. Well, is there any more comment?

I'll bring this back next month. I'll send it out to everybody if they want to submit their notes, and then I can compile all those.

discussion next month. Chris, also, this will go to council to be discussed, too. So not only will there be a public meeting here, there will be a public meeting at council. Correct.

All right, seeing no further discussion, is there a motion to excuse the absence of Mayor Morrow and Chairperson Young?

I move. So moved. Second.

All those in favor?

Aye.

Motion passed. Is there a motion to adjourn at 8-11? So moved.

Second.