City Council - Regular Meeting

and the 20 26 27 proposed library budget. Madame Chair and councel, roll call was taken at our special meeting at 5:45 and a quorum was present and a quorum is present for this special meeting. The special meeting agenda reads as follows. Number one, um, roll call. Number two, agenda. Number three, discussion municipal library budget. Number four is public comment. And number five is an adjournment. And a motion will be in order to accept this special meeting agenda as presented.

Madam Chair, I'll offer the motion that we accept the agenda for this special meeting. Support. Thank you. Been motioned by Mr. Jones, support uh seconded by Miss Rosco uh for this special meeting agenda as read. Mr. Jones. Yes. Miss Rosco, yes. Mr. Bullock, yes. [clears throat] Mr. Wsworth, yes. Mr. Wilhigh, yes. Chair votes, yes. Uh, agenda approved. Thank you, council. Number three is discussion and that's the municipal library budget. And I'm going to assume that our librarian is going to lead us into this discussion.

Yes, ma'am. [clears throat] Good evening, council, mayor, chief of staff, and everyone else who's here. Thank you for being here. Um, this is Debbie Hoffman, in case you don't know. She is the library board treasurer. Um, our library board president is also here, Jennifer Johnson. Um, to, uh, you know, present to you, uh, our situation here with the with the budget. I want to give you um just a brief you've got it in your packet there uh printed copies um a brief overview of the penal

I'm sorry I'm I'm hard I mean I can't hear you yeah it's hard to hear you thank you better you better believe it sorry I had to move that close thank [clears throat] you

I want to give you a a brief overview of the penal fine um situation this is the same presentation that we uh brought to you I believe it was last March March, but of course there's new council people, so we want to get you up to speed. Um, and if you refer to the PowerPoint, uh, three-page PowerPoint about penal plans that you should have in front of you there, um, you can sort of follow along. I'm going to skip through this quickly because we don't have a whole lot of time. Um but basically uh beginning in 1835, Michigan's constitution um contained a provision stating that income from from penal fines shall be used for the support of public libraries. The distribution of penal fines to public libraries governs the dist distribution that was um in 1964 that started. Penal fines are considered local funding and they include penal and motor vehicle fines. the county treasur's office in each uh Michigan county collects and distributes the fine money to sorry

um do we have that slide or whatever [clears throat] in your packet everybody's lost that's why I was like oh I apologize that that was sent over I apologize it's not in there in the the PowerPoint was so yeah that's with you. Thank you for pointing out. You said it's a slide that we should have had. It was a It's a PowerPoint. Oh, okay. But you don't have it. Okay. No, we don't. Okay. Okay. Thank you.

I'm sorry about that. I didn't thought we um so the county treasures office uh Wayne County treasures office um collects and distributes penal fines to the libraries in Wayne County. Um and the library of Michigan is uh responsible for sort of overseeing that. Um the counties are required by law to distribute the penal fines before August 1st of each year. Wayne County has not done that for the last several years. They're always behind. Um, and the penal fine payments are the per capita rate as established by the state of Michigan times the population of each library service area. And just to confirm, we serve Ramulus and her township. So we receive penal fine payments or we have in the past for both um municipalities. So our per uh our population would be a total of 42,122. So last uh two summers ago uh 2024, the Wayne County Library directors began to see discrepancies in the amount of penal fines being distributed to the libraries in Wayne County. The Library of Michigan was notified and they began an investigation. The investigation revealed that some uh Wayne County libraries were underpaid and some were overpaid going back 10 years. It could have gone back further, but when they did their investigation, they went back 10 years. And every year there were libraries that were underpaid and overpaid. Um, according to Wayne County, our library, Romulus Public Library, was overpaid every year for at least 10 years. How did this happen? Wayne County reported that they lost an employee who had been calculating the penal fines. Subsequently, the staff who were tasked with calculating and paying the penal

fines were not trained, had little documentation and little internal or institutional history to know how the penal fines were supposed to be calculated. Wayne County has admitted this uh publicly that there were mistakes that were made on their part. In addition, they did not replace a position uh the position of the employee who had been doing the penal fine distribution and the remaining staff was stretched thin. So, the Library of Michigan was not notified of the change of the former employee and as reported by the Library of Michigan, Wayne County's mistakes, including neglect, poor communication, failure to replace departed employees, and lack of proper training, resulted in Wayne County staff using incorrect [clears throat] information to calculate the amounts to be paid out. And that's a direct quote from Library of Michigan. In 2024, the correct calculation was used, resulting in a revenue shortfall for us of 187,511 for fiscal year 2425 and future fiscal years.

Oh, there it is. Thank you.

Okay, now you can follow along. Uh the per capita rate for Wayne County in 2024 was 0.9 and the total population as I mentioned 42.122. In addition, it's been reported that we were overpaid $1.4 million over 10 years. That's the highest overpaid library in Wayne County. Some of the other libraries were overpaid, but not by as much. Some of them had plenty of money in their fund balance where [clears throat] they could just write a check to pay Wayne County and pay it back. Obviously, we didn't have an extra $1.4 million. Um, the errors continued to be discovered uh by multiple libraries in the amounts paid out over the 10-year period. So, that called into question the accuracy of the information provided by Wayne County. Um, we had we had since or since then we have been working with Mr. Hitchcock to work through this. um and the board requested through him that an audit be conducted by an independent auditing firm paid for by Wayne County to review all of the numbers for that 10-year period. So, that was what happened. That puts us into the situation we're in now. Um and I could give you an update on that. So the $37,000 that we were um last that we were owed that the correct amount in 2024 we received that amount 37 something since then. Uh we have not received anything. So and we have had no communication from Wayne County. So, we have no idea if they're taking that 37ish thousand dollars and applying it to our debt or not. They're they're not communicating at all. And all the other libraries that I've spoken with um have said the same thing that the communication is not is not good or non-existent really. So, that brings us

Yeah. I'm sorry, Patty. Mayor, I'm sorry to the chair. Just one quick question. So, just so I'm clear. So none of the other communities, I believe there was one that went down there and got their operational check of the penal fine, but the rest of them are all in the same situation we're in. Okay. And we haven't had an official response from Wayne County regarding the third party audit yet. Okay. Just making sure. Thank you. So it's not something we're being penalized for asking about that amount. It's where all the communities are waiting to receive their penal fine check. Right. Correct. Okay. Thank you. I'm sorry P Mr. W. If I can uh this is nothing that we did. That's what they did. Correct. Okay. All right. Fine. Thank you. Thank you. I'm sorry. Go ahead, Patty.

No, no, you're fine. Happy to take any questions you might have. Um, so you have before you, I believe, uh, two different budget scenarios. The board directed me to prepare two different budget scenarios for the 26 27 budget year. One at the current rate of.3 mil, what we're currently receiving. I'm sorry. 7 mil what we're currently receiving and then one at a full mil one mil numbers in front of you. You see those?

So if we were to maintain the same rate of.7 mil moving forward um we would not be able to get through the next fiscal year budget. We would need to cut hours. We would need to cut staff. We would need to order no books. We would need to uh drop services. It it would it would be quite drastic for us to to have to do that and close our doors. And it reminds me uh of you know what Mr. Wsworth always mentions. Back in 2011, we were in a situation and the library had to close for two weeks. And we sure don't want to go back to that situation. So it's quite dire if we stay at the 7 mil. Um, if we were to uh if council were to approve a full mill, um, that would bring us right back to where we were before. We'd be able to build up our fund balance again. We wouldn't have to close our doors or or lay off staff. Um, we would be able to function fully and uh build up our fund balance again. So, that is our hope um that you know we can do that. I also wanted to remind you that in this fiscal year 2526, we did go through the budget and look for ways that we could cut we cut uh about $100,000 in uh in expenses for this fiscal year to get us through the year. Um and we've done okay uh and we'll we'll probably be okay through June 30th, but for next fiscal year um I don't believe we'd be able to function at the same level. Um, we just a couple little facts I wanted to mention. Um, the library gets about four to 5,000 visitors a month. We're very busy library. We're getting busier and busier. We have a lot of

programming, a lot of services and we sure want to hang on to those and and keep that going. Um, I have one more question if I can. You don't need council approval to go to one mill. Yes, we do. I thought you could. Pardon? You set the mill. City council sets the mill. Okay. But that's the most that we can correct do without going out to the public to ask them for help. Correct. Okay. Fine. Thank you. I'm sorry. That increase of 310 of a mill would cost the average taxpayer about $16.85 a year. I'm I'm sorry. I didn't hear that. chair.

The the increase of 3/10en of a mill would cost the average taxpayer about $16.85 annually. Annually, do the may I'm saying mayor. [laughter] The uh two quick questions. So, as as we continue to grow and have additional customers over there and I know we share services with Hiron, what percentage of our people who enjoy the library are from Hiron? About 15%. About 15%. And if it if it if we're talking about a tax increase to our residents, are we talking about an increase in lease payment from Hiron as well to share in some of that burden or what are we doing with her as well? We sure will approach them about it. Definitely. Yes. As we do every year.

Okay. Thank you. And I'm not trying to put Hon seat. I'm just looking at holistically that if we're talking about an increase to our residents, we need to look at those things. Thank you. Thank you. One other thing I wanted to mention. Oh, go ahead. Okay. So, see the chair. So, um, so they're saying we owe them money back and have we started paying them money back or is that still like in a holding period? In essence, it's a holding period. Okay.

We um we've asked them for an audit because not only our library but other libraries have found inconsistencies in their figures. We asked them to pay for that audit since they're the ones that made the error for the last 10 years. We've heard literally nothing back from them. Okay. Thank you. Question Stacy. So with this fiscal year 100,000, where's that 100,000 going? Do you guys have a line item? The 100,000 you cut your budget by 100,000 saved. So where is that going? So it basically it's just allowing us to not use our fund balance to pay for.

So it's still in your line item as a fund balance. And so the hope is that we'll accumulate to pay some of this back. So back 63024, our fund balance was in excess of $600,000. Um we were getting $280,000 a year basically from from um penal funds. Um that disappeared. 22% of our budget disappeared. Um, so we had to cut $100,000 out of the expenditures just to be able to try to keep our fund balance within a decent amount. Um, and we, you know, we can't keep that up.

Okay. So, you're that 100,000 is coming from that fun that penal fine. Okay. Got any other questions from council or anybody. Um, so what would be our next step um in this process? [snorts] I mean, do we does it come before council in some type of I mean, because you said it has to come through council. Do we I was looking at Steve or do we have to what do we do as far as council? I mean, do we have to do anything? When you do your normal budget process, you end up adopting the millage levels for

Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha. So [clears throat] what we would like to know is should we go ahead and present our budget based on the 1 mil as opposed to the 7/10 of a mill because we you know we given you both options. One is substantial cuts. One is maintaining services at the current level. Um and you know our our librarian needs to know what direction you'd like us to go and you want us you want us to give that decision to consensus um so we know. Yeah. Um okay to the chair. Yes ma'am. Maria, you want to comment? Correct. That's right. I yield to Maria. Could be council.

So, as we're stating here, so if we do, if council when I bring the preliminary budget to council, it would be based on that one mill. Okay. However, when I bring the appropriations and we adopt that general appropriations and tax levy, that's when council will approve it. Got it. Okay. Okay. Okay. But I just want to know from us tonight which way we leaning basically. Yes. Okay. Um is that something that council I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Is it a permanent fix or is that something once it's paid it can go back? It's you set the billage every year. So um with the budget

we've been levying.7 mills for the last nine years. We haven't asked for an increase for the last nine years. So is it possible that it could go back? It is. Um but then again, we don't know what is going to happen with this. Yeah, we're kind of hanging out there in limbo, right? So, right. But you do you do set the millillage every year and you have the ability to levy up to one mill without a vote of the people. Gotcha. Do we want to provide a consensus to the library tonight? I got one comment. There's been a there's been a lot of hard work the last nine years to to to keep this building open and I have a problem with the one mill but I'm only one person.

Okay. Celeste and through the chair. I totally agree with Councilman uh Wodsworth was a hard row when closed and come back and you've done a great job and and every single time I'm in the parking lot or come through here. It's packed over there and that they're all in the library and I I think it's um a very needed place in our community. So I I don't have a problem with the one mill either. I don't Mark

I need more information. I'm [laughter] I'm reading through this and I mean I um I definitely would like to see the library stay at the level that it's at right now. Um, but I have to look more into u I'm wishy-washy right now just because I'm learning all the different aspects of this and I would say keep it at the same right now. That's just the way I am right now. But it might change once I get a little bit more educated. Um David,

um chair, I can go with the one mill so we can um you know we you our library we need to keep our library as it is you know going and I think we would it would be to our benefit to do the one mill and like you said as time go on we can see what's going to happen. We might be able to then we might have to keep it where it's [clears throat] at. That's something right now we don't know. But unfortunately we between a rock and a hard place by it's all the county's fault. So and they're not responding unfortunately. Okay. Mr. B, I say we go for it and push it to the one mill. That'll push us save us for this year. Then we can redis for next year.

Yeah. Great. Cuz like you said, one meal be basically around 40 49 $50 more a year. $16. $16 more a year. Okay. Madam clerk, do we do need to do a formal vote or can we just use this as discussion as the It would have to be at the the uh regular meeting. Correct. Yeah. It's not really agenda item. No, it's just not consensus. Huh. It's not on the agenda. So I because they're just looking [clears throat] for a consensus of what they you know how they should proceed at once they leave out of here today. But shouldn't there be like a formal resolution that's presented in order for council to vote on? Mr. Wildsworth,

just one more point. We would have to go to the public to get anything above 1 mil. Right. Okay. As long as everybody understands that. Okay. Okay. And and tonight we're not we're not making a decision whether we're going for the one mill or anything. We're just discussing the possibilities of one or the other. We would vote on that at a later date, right? They kind of looking for some kind of consensus of how we're feeling so that they can walk out and vote for their next step as far as how to proceed. So, they're trying to get a feel 16 $16 go. So, I just want to make sure we're doing protocol. Do we need to run a vote or what do we need to do? Because they just trying to get direction.

I'm going to defer to our city attorney. I don't I think it's a consensus. second session on this issue. So, you don't want to have any motion tonight. Okay. To the chair, I I I think what this is is you're wanting to know how to do your budget. You got it. So, um whether to do it at 7 mills or do it at the one. Exactly. Correct. And um so I I I think we all agree to go ahead and do it at the 1 mil. And then when it comes back to us, then we have the choice of voting yes or no on the one mill. Thank you. So, we don't need to do no action. Mayor, did you want to say something? I was just going to add a couple comments that was this be voted on officially during the appropriations at the end of the budget. Okay.

Um and also, so with the enacting the other additional.3 or going to that full 1 mil, does that I mean I know the strategy right now is put the the onus in work on Wayne County, does that are you cooking into that into your budget means to set aside money if if they do call and say you do owe that 1 million. So it will add to your your uh your general fund. So you'll have money if say in June of 26 way county comes back and they say this is it. These these are the monies that are owed. This plan will help you budget for that. Absolutely. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Stacy

if they're not responding and this has been going on since 24th. Is there like a statue of elimination or something like [laughter] I mean we're going to get discussing those kind of issues. You should really do it in a close. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. Um so it sounds like we'll have to take a formal action. Correct. Okay. You got your consensus, I think. Thank you so much. [laughter] Thank you. And Mr. Will Hide, if there's any questions I can answer for you, give me a call. I will be in touch with you. Happy to answer. I will be in touch with you. I'm a little overwhelmed with all the stuff that I've been doing today. [laughter]

No worries. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Is there anything else from the library board that you want to report? No, that concludes. Okay. Um Madame Chair, um that concludes the discussion portion of the agenda. Um number four is public comment. This is a portion on the agenda for those who are in the audience um and who would like to have comments concerning um tonight's special meeting, the municipal library budget. You may do so at this time. You will have three minutes to speak. um raise your hand and after being acknowledged by the chairperson, approach the podium and we ask that you kindly state your name.

Is there anyone from the public that would like to have public comment? Madam Chair, no one has indicated. No, I think we're good. All right. Okay. Takes us to number five, adjournment. So move support. It's been motioned by Mr. Wsworth and seconded by Miss Rosco for the adjournment of this special meeting. Mr. Wsworth. Yes. Mrs. Rosco. Yes. Mr. Bullock. Yes. Mr. Wilhigh. Yes. Mr. Jones. Yes. Chair. We are journedial meeting. Mhm.

We're just supposed to start at 6:30. Um, madame chair and council, this is a special meeting study session um to discuss the creation of bylaws for the city council and amendments to the regular meeting agenda rules. Madame Chair and councel, roll call was taken at our previous study sessions and at um and at this study session we have a quorum present.

The special meeting study session is as follows. Number one, roll call. Number two, agenda. Number three, discussion council rules and agendas. Number four is public comment. And number five is adjournment. And a motion will be in order to accept the special meeting agenda as presented. Madam chair, I'll make that motion to accept the agenda as presented. A second.

Thank you. It's been a motion by Miss Rosco, seconded by Miss Jones for the agenda for this special meeting for um bylaws. Miss Rosco, yes. Mr. Jones, yes. Mr. Wilhigh, yes. Mr. Wsworth, yes. Mr. Bullock, yes. Chair, yes. Ultimate approval.

Thank you. Uh we're now in this um under discussion. Um what you have um before you are a set of uh proposed um sample of some bylaws um for city council. Um this is really just a framework for you all to hopefully you had an opportunity to um read through it. And so at this time um and again this is a framework. This is a sample. This is for you all to discuss it, massage it um any changes that you want um with these bylaws. And so at this time I'm going to um refer over to our to madame chair um to lead into this discussion.

Yeah. So um been working with the clerk's office about just our reg uh regular like bylaws or how we conduct business as a council. Pretty much everything is how it has been. Um, we adopted some different things, some different things that kind of hopefully make the flow of the uh, meetings go a little bit further. So, I don't know. Did everybody get a chance to go through it? Did anybody have any qu Let's start there. Did anybody have any questions? This might be. Of course you do. Start with Mark. Yes. Do the Oh, Mark.

Yeah. Through the Go ahead. Um they're looking at this as a prelim. It's great. I was telling Deson earlier that when I take a red pencil and I go through it and there's under 20 marks on it, it's it's a pretty good start. Um there are some clarification things and then there are some questions that I have. One, um well, I'll start at the beginning. Okay. Um the order of succession um on number two

four um the order in the absence of the mayor prom or the chair prom the council self designate a council member to preside in the meeting and how would that would that just be a vote of the members or so there was a how question there and we don't have to It would be just about somebody make a motion to I appoint so the chairperson and it can and it could be at that meeting. Yeah. Okay.

All right. There's that one. Um and section five um it's page four under voting uh the abstensions. I was looking at that and it says that the council member abstaining must state on record his reason for abstension. Is that Yes. Do we

Yeah. Well, you can't you can't just arbitrarily abstain from voting because you don't want political wrath of voting one way or the other. If that's the case, you have to have a valid conflict reason. So that's if if it was a monetary thing for one of the members and they had to abstain for that they just state that due to personal whatever I I do business with this person my private business whatever your your conflict is. Okay. Um chair

go ahead. to the chair comment on marks. Um Ellen has made comments before that we didn't need to abstain when we're absent. A lot of times we'll abstain on the minutes because we were absent from the last meeting and and there's been comments made that we really don't need to do that if we've read through the meeting minutes and we don't have any questions. Um, and we're you'll hear some of us abstain sometimes when we've been absent,

right? And that's, you know, that was one of the the one of the through the chair, one of the um one of the questions that I had is when we first became council people, we were sitting here and we weren't involved in the meeting prior. And you know, if you look at it's Robert's rules is kind of, you know, you abstain if you're not involved in that. But I didn't look I just wanted to make sure of that. Mhm. Um the debate and decorum section 4

um courteous stone must be maintained. Interjecting personal notes is that uh they're given opinion. You said which one? So, um it's uh page four. It's the interject and then it was and it talks about any council member can approve or appeal against the ruling of the mayor prom to the full council. And is that is that the way it's covered in Robert's rules?

Well, this this is not is it this is our chart. This is per our charter. I thought when we Is it per our charter? I think I think that's Robert's rules only. What's it? Okay. And you saying Robert's rules does that say that? No, I'm I was asking is that the interjecting of a personal note? It's um and and then I was looking at that and then at the bottom, you know, it was you can appeal And I was my question was that is through Robert's rules. Correct. It's not is that Robert's rules?

Yeah. My recollection is rules does provide for overruling the chairperson's ruling on something if you can get four folks to do that. Okay, that's what I thought. But you're also asking about the interjecting personal notes as well. Yeah, I was unclear on what that if I can through the chair. Okay, thank you. and and that's more like insults, personal insults. It's just okay,

you know, when we um when this document was put together, of course, we're looking at the charter Robert's rules. We're looking at other communities as well so that we could know how to how to put this document together, and this was just one of the things that um the wording that

that they had that we used. So, it doesn't mean like a note literally, and that could change. We can actually change that. That's just kind of, you know, we're compiling all of this together, right? Um, we're trying to take best practices and things and again, we can change that wording there, but it's more just, you know, the council in the past have have experienced unfortunately personal [clears throat] verbal attacks and um insults. And so what we're the the objective here is just stating that hey, you know, be courteous, be kind. Um and then again, it's also stating if you have to, you know, appeal against a ruling from the mayor, uh prom and how, you know, how you would do that. So

you have concerns about the wording? Uh well I just um I no I just wanted to know about that because I I have sat through a lot of um city council meetings where people are going at each other and stuff but you know and it puts it uh the onus on you because you're have to m maintain control but the appeal I didn't see that in the one Robert's rules book but I was kind of yeah and that's why we're kind of going through these bylaws and kind of implementing them. We I we've done it pretty much form, you know, done it, but just to have a formal

document. Oh, I get it. And this is a this is a good basic document. I just wanted to clear clear things up to where if there was a question, you can go right to our our Bible. If somebody asks for or something, you know, um the other thing, uh let's see, are in public commentary. I understand that you don't want to get into if somebody's attacking you. Um, you don't want to get into that in a city council meeting or anything like that. Um, and it says discussion. Let's see. Comments.

I was I was looking at some I don't know how to write write it either, but um if if a a person in the in comes up and they verbally attack you. Um, you know, pick you out of the group and verbally attack you. Um, this is pretty much saying that you don't want to get into a [laughter] you can't say anything to I guess I wanted that clarified for me because I uh, you know,

defend. Yeah. [laughter] Well, our rules when we start the council meeting says that, you know, the clerk reads the rules in the beginning of the meeting. Um, now that is a good question. If somebody comes up here attacking, um, can I guess this is a Steve question. If somebody come up here acting crazy, what on that is that they can attack you professionally if they want to. Okay. Individually, a person.

Yeah. I think you're doing a bad job because Now they can't go attack their personal life. We should listen because they do this and this person.

Oh, excuse me. That's so yeah, they can as long as they're uh doing it in a civilized manner. You can't cut off their three minutes because they want to talk about the fact that you're as a group or individually. They don't think you're doing a good job as a council person, they can do that. But if they want to, you can cut them off if they're going to start attacking an individual council person's personal life activities or their spouse or their children or whatever. And so,

and I see I see where, you know, and it it discourages and and I get that, you know, you don't want to get into a verbal, you know, but I um Yeah, that was a question that I wanted to because I Yeah. So, the council person should kind of hold their peace if we kind of get into that kind of situation. Well, we've talked about that before that you don't we don't want to get into a debate with them when they're in their three minutes, right? If you feel compelled to say something about it, there's unfinished business. Unfinished business

right after them where you could respond if you felt compelled to respond. But the problem with the the doing it during their three minutes is first of all, you're going to have a real tough time because now he's going to say, "Well, council miss Mr. So and so just took up a minute and a half of my three minutes. So I want an additional three minutes. Pretty soon you're up there trying to monitor did or did they not get their three minutes where with the clock running they get their three minutes. Nobody's going to try to counter their position and their three minutes they're done. They sit out. So if they are up there making a personal attack, who is responsible for stopping them? You. You. Oh me. You.

You got to call them out of order. Yeah. [laughter] camera. Okay. Through the chair. We don't have no sergeant in arms. Well, [laughter] that would be you through the chair. Okay. Yes, mayor.

I always thought it was a good idea too um rather to engage those debates which we seldom win here because you can't you know use all the facts that you might have is to defer out under you know unfinished business. Now there have been some people who come to that podium with a legitimate reason that merits a discussion and it's going to be an adult conversation. So, you need to have that ability to you decide how we're going to, you know, as a council member who going to [clears throat] be, you know, we've had people come up there and talk about dog attacks. All right, we should talk to these people. We should find out what's going on, what we can do. Now, if we got some of the garbage that's come up here in the past, yeah, I'll defer to unfinished business and then I'll answer it and I'll be done with it because we're not going to debate. But that I would say it should be the right of each council member or each elected official how you're going to

address that. Understand that. My two cents. Okay. Thank you. And I I just want to make one further comment on that is it's better if you give them more than one chance, okay, for us later to defend it. Really? Uh because you you can't get you can say, "Well, I didn't hear her. I didn't understand what she's saying." You can say that once. Get away with it, maybe. Okay. But you know, you sound okay, you're you're you're attacking the personal life of council person so and so. You got to you got to stop doing that. Okay. And then they go right back at it again.

Then you say, "Okay, I told you a minute ago you can't conduct yourself that way. Now you're doing it again and you got to stop." And the sergeant-at-arm things. I think we had more than time I've been here maybe one or two times where PD gets called right to actually remove the person because nobody expects you to physically get out of that chair come around here and drag somebody out of the room but uh once you declare once you declare they've lost their time [clears throat] okay

and there maybe the three minutes aren't up but they have violated more than once you know your directive to them, you can no longer speak. Sit down. Okay. And if they don't do don't obey it, then that's when we'll have to get a police officer in here to remove them if they continue to be disruptive. Okay. No, thank you, Steve. Ellen,

I'm sorry. If I can through the chair and I think another good rule of thumb and it and it does work again, allow them their full three minutes and if they have questions, say, "Hey, finish up in three minutes and then afterwards [clears throat] we can address that." Um, under unfinished business, but we want them to, you know, just letting them know and then they can always, you know, if it's a matter, I know the mayor's pretty good at it. Hey, we need your contact information. Um, and then that way that they're heard. But I think the important thing is just when we when

you know you get into this debate back and forth and then you know we're stopping the clock and you're trying to you know and and and two there are some residents by design that they'll come in and you know to try to work the you know play with the the clock there. But I think just letting them know you have three minutes whatever [clears throat] questions we can reiterate that it will be addressed under unfinished business and then afterwards we can tell them that they can either see the deputy clerk or the chief of staff and leave their contact information and then we'll get back with them and then that way those matters are being addressed with those individuals. Answer your question.

Yeah, pretty much. So, I only have two more state two more things. One, uh they're under um citizen participation addressing the council. It says they may state his or her name. Shouldn't that be shall? No, you can't. Not at all. No, you can't make them. You can't make them. Oh, you can't? No. No. If they want to refuse to give their name, but they want to they want to speak publicly during their three minutes, they can do that. Right. So that's yeah that's you can choose to ignore what they got to say because they didn't have enough respect to give you their name if you want it but they can you know

they can say no I don't want to give my name I [clears throat] did not know that because I remember we used to you'd say your name and address. Yeah. And then I learned I took [clears throat] a class rule and said, "Oh, we do, you know, they're not required to." That's why I say, you know, you know, if you'd like, please state your name if you would like. And so that mean they're not requiring them to do so, but it's just nice if they if they would, but we cannot make them may. Okay. Well, they don't they don't have to live in the city either. Oh, right. Okay. And that was in the chair.

Yes. And that was that was some of the things too because we had an incident where people came from other just a protest or whatever. Um and that was I wanted to know where they were [snorts] from. I was here that night. But you have you have said uh what Steve just stated that they don't have to live in the city. And that was going to be my question. Nope. They can live anywhere. Oh wow. And I only had the last thing I had was decorum. At the bottom it says signs and posters up to 12 and 18. Do do we even Can we

cut that out to where they can't bring anything in here now? They can't. It's freedom of speech. They can't. Yeah, they they can bring stuff in. It's if it gets too big so that it's disruptive of the meeting or it's disrupting other person's abilities to see what's going on. If somebody comes in with a, you know, a five- foot sign and they want to sit in the front row with it, they just blocked off half the audience from being able to see what's going on. So that's why the concept was to limit the size up front so they know before they come that if you're going to bring a sign this is the limit the size of it. You can hold that on your lap if you want to and won't be dis shouldn't be too disruptive.

But there's no way that you can No. As long as they're I mean what we were reading, you know, like not blocking the cameras because we've got cameras, you know, broadcasting live, but it's impeding the view. But if they want to have it in their lab, they're welcome. They they can actually do that. We can have a template here so we can I'm just curious. Oh, that's all I had. There you go. Pretty good, huh? Okay. Yeah, if I can through the chair. I didn't think about this, but um under citizen participation, many times we, you know, we're not supposed to campaign, you know, when it comes, you know, at public meetings like this. And we do occasionally

get um those that are campaigning and politicians that will come um and ask to speak and they're talking about their their campaign. It happens. Um, yeah, and I didn't think about this how we address that. I It just occurred to me now, how should we address that? Well, that's a touchy one. If they really have some subject matter they want to address and they happen to get up and say, "My name is so and so and I'm running for office and I want to talk about some issue." Okay,

not much you can do about that. But their full their only purpose of getting up there is to campaign and talk about themselves and why they're why they would be a good candidate. You can call them out of order on that. That we're not supposed to be using the the city resources to support any candidate. Okay. Uh, and so if they if that's the sole purpose of it, then if you're going to allow it as the sole purpose, then you have to make that publicly known, too. Okay? That it's okay to come so everybody knows so they can all come and campaign for three minutes if that's what they want to do.

So, it's either that choice or you try to cut out somebody that's only getting up there to to campaign. They, you know, sorry, Mr. So, and so, but we're [clears throat] not allowed to use city resources to support your campaign. Gota. So, yeah, that's just that just it dawned on me. Make some kind of notation. I don't know. I mean, I was that that's really the you know, up to the mayor pro Tim. I mean, for you to let to remind them that they're not supposed to campaign because we run into that. they'll come in and then they want to hand out all their literature and

we have to stop that and and um you know it's really up to you all to stop that. I I think most of the time they have had something that they want to talk about in addition to obviously using the time to tell everybody who I am and you might see my signs out there and that's I'm running for office and but then they they you know if they do that quickly and move on to the the reason that they're up there about what the issue is they want to talk about then I think you probably got to let it slide. started. Uh, you know,

that's a touch. Yeah. Mayor, did you have something? My personal opinion on it is this is a city council meeting. This is your the council's uh venue to conduct city business. And if somebody's going to come to that podium, it should be about cityless business. Um, again, this is your meeting. You guys decided to quum. Um, and I'll support whatever. But that's what I always thought like people were bringing things to that podium that are not involved in operations or they're running the municipality and that's what this meeting is for. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. But thank you for asking.

Good. Okay. And so I have a question. I think a brother up to you, Madam Clerk. Um as far as um when um if council is not going to be at a meeting like Miss Abdo called me today and said she wasn't going to be here today, what how do we how do we handle if you're not going to be at a meeting? Do y'all call the clerk? Do y'all call the mayor pro Tim? Just want to make sure because we should need to add that as part of our processes. That's totally up to you all how you want to do that. The protocols for that if if you feel that you should, you know, call the um mayor prom and then

she will let us know. I mean, we've had council members to even call us and we tried to, you know, text messaging, but I think there should just be a a process. So, if it's an emergency or something, you can't get in touch with the mayor pro Tim. I would say then contact the clerk's office. Then we can make sure everybody else is notified. Um, that's just my suggestion, but it's totally up to you all how you want any. But if you notice that John would Jen would generally say so and so's not here this evening. They're excused. Right. So, right. And it's got to it's your decision to say whether excuse or I don't know why they're gone, you know. Right. Gotcha. I got you, Steve.

But sure, they could if they did if they give it to the clerk, then the clerk has to should make sure that you get the information as to why they're asking Celeste through through the chair. in the past when I've had to um do that a couple times, not very many, but I've always made sure that usually I've had to text whatever situation I'm in. Um I've always made sure I uh include the mayor prom and one other person whether you know it's the clerk's office or the mayor's office or or somebody else. That way, somebody's getting the information just in case the mayor pro Tim

for some reason isn't available and I don't have a chance to get back and check to see if they got my text message or or my phone call.

Right. And if I can through the chair, I I would suggest um through the mayor pro Tim. Um and then if you can't get in touch with her, then you can contact the clerk's office. But, you know, we have so much going on in the clerk's office, especially election time, and we may be, you know, we might miss that text message or might miss that call, and that's something we don't want to do. So, um, I just feel like that follows the protocol. And then if you can't get her, then of course, you know, reach out to us or if then there's the chief of staff is really good. You know, we all communicate pretty well with that. But I that's just my recommendation. But totally up to you all. Okay. any everybody is everybody good with that recommendation? Okay.

Okay. Excuse me. One more through the chair. Um and that would go under organization of the council section two. Let's see. Yeah. You said under number three. Deputy clerk says under number five. Under five. No. What page is that? Uh, page four. Okay. Through the chair. Page four. Got the floor. Um, okay. Under discussion. No, I got discussion under five. Where do you want to proceed? Okay.

Under one. He'll place it. Yeah. Oh, wait. He said, "Wait, what? What Celeste says under it would be so Deon said that it would be the new number two under number five. So it would be section five meeting procedures and debate. Um number one would be quorum and then number two would be absences or excuses. Gotcha. That makes sense. Yeah. So we'd have and then number three would be motions and resolutions and so forth. Okay. Okay.

You got your job cut out for you. So funny. Um I'm learning. Um any other discussions regarding the bylaws? Is that part okay? Oh, you took up everybody else. If I can through the chair. Madam clerk, I don't know how Councilman Willy missed this. So, there's been talk we we've discussed about um the structure of our agenda

um and there's you know discussion about um including um consent agenda as part of our agenda. We included just a sample. Um, of course, you know, that's routine items in nature. Those things like um for example um like the warrant could be under the consent agenda. You can do um reappointments um the second reading and final adoption of budget amendments. Just those things. So, because our agendas have, you know, they're because we're down to two meetings, our agendas are a lot longer. So, um it's really open for you all to discuss it. I know we had we discussed it in length with the uh mayor pro Tim and um so just want your input on that. What do you think about that? I know mayor we talked about that about consent agenda

including that in our current agenda structure. Um [snorts] so it's open for you all to discuss that. Any thoughts? Mr. W. Are you saying that we say we're going to we're going to accept a consent agenda and not individually mention everyone? Um I mean there are those there are some things that you would mention, you know, you would vote on individually. Still have a mayor's That's the way it used to be when I first got here. Okay. And the public really didn't like that because they wanted to hear every every item that we were approving.

I mean, generally that's how it works though. The motion to approve the consent agenda somebody makes second it and everything that's on the consent agenda is approved by that one resolution. Right. Yeah. But then we don't then we don't mention everyone that was on the agenda. But as part of that if somebody doesn't want that part of the consent they can pull it a council person can pull that out of that and they can we can take it off out of the consent agenda. But to go through what was that meeting? We had so many items. It was just really so much redundancy and just routine routine. It's like, oh my god, we had to go through each item where we can just condense it all into a consent agenda. If somebody has an issue with it, just pull it off

and some and they public wouldn't know what's on it even if they don't have it because the clerk is is will she can read it. But you know, that's what made us stop doing that is the public came and complained about it. you know, are you trying to put something over our eyes on there? You know, that's okay. U so that's something through the chair. So, um the way I'm understanding that, maybe I misunderstood when I I looked at this. So, instead of uh voting on each of the items underneath that approval of the items under the consent agenda, we'd make just one motion and approve all of that.

Right. And then if there's something particular that you, you know, you wanted to discuss, you can vote to have, you know, you can request to have that um that agenda item, you know, removed um from the consent agenda portion of the agenda and then it would just move down, you know, on the agenda. you discuss it later but um or you know take action but everything under that consent agenda just like for example um reappointments to boards

you know I mean is what's there really to discuss everything's there in the packet um your second reading and final adoption of budget amendments because the first reading is under the mayor's report so there was that opportunity to discuss you know everything about that budget amendment um there. So, it's just those small things um those things in routine that we can that you would vote on, but things like contracts, bids, and all those things would still be, you know, under the mayor's report. And then the other thing too, I'm sorry. Um like Reverend Willis is coming tonight for a note for the Dr. King no feed permit. He do this every year.

That could be under the consented judgment because we know we're it's going to be a he's not going to be able to get up and talk about it. I'm just saying the stuff that we prove every say it's not a big thing but if somebody's being put on a board [snorts] Uhhuh. and they're either going to be in the audience or they're going to be home and and they want to hear their name. Mhm. You know that's So didn't we Oh, I'm sorry. Don, state your name, sir.

Uh Bill Watssworth. [laughter] Hello. Uh, council, mayor, clerk, treasurer, chief of staff, uh, city attorney, incoming city attorney. So, uh, the, of course, the consent agenda is for, uh, routine items that are approved by council to be approved under one action item instead of the multiple action items. Just going back to uh the one question that you made, um, the the clerk will announce everything that's under the consent uh, agenda. So the clerk will say uh agenda item number four approval of the consent agenda items under the consent agenda will be approval of the warrant 26- whatever for checks in this amount reappointment to the um planning commission I mean reappointment of so and so to the planning commission she will list everything out the one difference between the consent agend agenda is that there is no discussion if you want to discuss a item on that consent agenda. Any council person can uh request to have that item pulled and then it will go to the next agenda item which will be items to be that was pulled from the consent agenda for consideration. So basically it's something to allow routine actions to be quickly approved so that the meeting can proceed in an orderly fashion.

Don't forget I I have a quick question.

Yeah. is for the pulling of an item for one of the council members to pull. Should that be done at the motion to approve the agenda at the beginning of the meeting or is that like a second opportunity during the consent agenda? So, and and this is where I need correction because what I read and my understanding is that, you know, we after the approval of the agenda, but when we get to the consent agenda portion, that's where that item would be pulled. Unless I'm let unless I'm unless I'm wrong, but that's that's the way I understood it with what I was reading. And if I'm wrong, let me know. I mean that yeah it's their agenda so they could do it either way but right

ideally it would be at the time of approval of the agenda right so that you don't get in the whole purpose of the consent agenda is just to have a resolution and get beyond it not to get into discussions about it right so somebody would say motion to approve the agenda and then somebody could say well hang on a second before it gets seconded I'd like this matter pulled from it okay amend that motion fine pull that section put it in there then you've got an approved agenda with the one particular consent item put into the regular then the next per and it only only takes that person to get it pulled too. They don't have to have four votes to pull it. Right.

So any of you who want an item pulled from the consent agenda just has to say so and it's pulled. Right. One one other question and this is the part that I wasn't certain about um was the public comment part because you there would be a public comment portion before they would actually vote on the consent agenda. Am I correct? That's where you that's where you have it. Yes.

Right. So, and I and this is where um you know, attorney Greco, where I was getting kind of confused on that part where they would vote to pull an you know, a consent agenda item because you would want the public [snorts] opportunity to speak on any of those action items on the agenda before you took action. So, there would be two public comment sections. So at the beginning of of the meeting um and you know if they have comment on any of those agenda items. So the part where I was getting confused I wasn't sure is that you know when we approved the agenda then I thought we would have you know you the agenda the minutes and then before they went to the consent agenda number three would be the public comment. Am I am I backwards on that? That that's the part I was just it was a little shady just because we have it done and I've seen it done both ways. So

yeah, two Mr. Am I wrong? You know, but then the public doesn't get to see the vote. How come they don't? What if you wanted to vote no on two items of 10, you know, whatever else you would You're not going to take a vote on every item. You would pull that item. Yeah, pull it. You would just ask you vote to pull that item. The public can read the minutes. They can look at everything and see how we voted, not just one thing. It don't make no sense to me, but that's only me. Okay. Does anybody else have thoughts on this? I'm done. I'm done. Any Mark?

M chair. You know, listen to everything. I'm I'm sort of like brother was uh M bill that it to me it seemed like it caused a little bit more confusion you know to pull something and then you got to uh sort of discuss it like you said uh we might wind up putting four three or four items out of there for discussion and then like you said the the the people the public won't have a chance to uh hear h how it went you know so to me it's a little still a little confusion in here with me. I can't

uh I will add this uh just to respond to your question, Councilman Jones. So, the council can can establish what should go under consent agenda. So, you will make the decision. What are the routine items that you know that council regularly approves? Those will go under consent agenda. We won't just throw anything under the consent agenda. It'll be routine items. So, if council wants to uh want second readings of budget amendments, they know those always pass, you could put that under uh consent agenda, then every second reading of a budget amendment will be under consent agenda. If you don't want to uh uh if you want board reappoints, not new board appointments, but reappointments, you can have that to be under consent agenda. So I think in establishing the consent agenda, this is where if you if you're agreeable to it, it's what you will want under consent agenda that is routine that could just easily be done away. I mean easily be handled with one action from council. Madam Chair, so you're saying that we would have a choice before the agenda is all set up of what's going to be uh the council will have a choice of what's going to be put on the

Yeah, cuz the the clerk office, we would need to know [clears throat] what are the items that you will want under consent agenda in order for us to proceed forward with the consent agenda structure and format. we we would make we would um you know do the we will create the mile or what we feel should go under the consent agenda and like he keeps saying it's just routine stuff like Reverend Willis coming in for no no feed permit every year for Dr. king, you know, or people coming in for no fee permits all the time. I mean, whatever we think that looks like for cons routine things, that's the thing we're talking about. Nothing like a contract, a budget, anything. Things that are routine in nature

that we do all the time, the warrant, but anybody else got anything to James? I think it speeds stuff up, makes it a lot easier. So, I think, you know, we just if there's something on there that I don't like, I just call and say, "Hey, I want I don't I want to talk about that." pull it off and pull it off. We'll talk about it more. Yeah. So, we're um so at this point when you get to this when that like the reappoints or whatever, I can see that going into um not new appointments but reappoints. Right.

Right. But it's uh I guess the uh question is uh is there a public commentary now that if we're addressing something can somebody get up and talk about you know because this adds a public comment yes this adds we do have yeah for things that are on the agenda right so in the in the in the wake of transparency too so before because we used to get a lot of people who come at public comment talking about the stuff we've already voted on Right.

So now let's like put a public comment here at the beginning before we even get into them items so they they can have their say before we even get into those items of vote because now we can just attack them at the beginning instead of waiting till 3 minutes after the vote is over and they feel like they didn't have a say in it. Right. I'm sorry. Um Celeste, did you have any thoughts on the consent agenda? Well, with with the approval of the consent agenda, I I can see like second reading and whatever, right? Um I I don't know about putting the warrant underneath there because people are still going to want to hear you read all those numbers off. Okay.

And they're because they're going to think now what are you hiding in the U warrant but we can kind of discuss that later. Um and then if something doesn't work that we're putting underneath there, we just won't put it underneath there anymore. Right. And keep in mind too that there would be um two again two public um sections on the agenda for public comment. One before you take action and then under the regular, you know, um after the treasures report, then you have public comment there. So um and this again totally up to you. is your meeting. Um, we're just describing

anybody. Do we have a consensus on the uh consent agenda? I said I said we do it. Okay. Madam Chair, with the way he just explained it that we have a choice what goes in there. That's that makes a difference. Mhm. Yep. I mean Okay. Other than that, yeah, but since we have a choice, we know what's going to be put in there in there. We can I can have go create that. Okay.

When you open up to public comments, um that stretches things out. I do agree after listening to, you know, I want to make a motion for this and then second and then you got to redo it and all this stuff. I could see where that would cut down. Um, if we uh if we think hard and long about what we put into it, I don't have a problem. Okay. Anybody else? Just one last

as as long as we can tweak that as we go. If we find that things that we're putting underneath there is not working and they're always getting pulled out of there. um where that's not set in stone what's there and what's not there. I I think that would work. [clears throat] But I I definitely think you need to take the warrant and put it at its own spot on the agenda like it was before. Exactly. Just because that's I think that's going to be one of the biggest issues. Okay.

My my opinion. And then just real quick, another item that like we've kind of added to that everybody's been appointed to a board or commission under the chairperson just proposing that that anyone that sits on a board or commission do a report out if there's information so that the people are alert as to what's going on these boards and commissions. Um and then the council as a whole can know what's going on as well. So just a quick summary of meetings that you attend for the boards of commission to kind of keep us all aware of what's going on in the public as well. So that's something we kind of going to be added under the chairperson's report. Any more discussion?

That's it.

We'll we'll make the um we'll make the changes that were discussed accordingly and present this back to you. I I want to have a opportunity too to sit with the incoming city attorney as well based off, you know, with your comment. Um, and perhaps we could provide, [snorts] you know, an example, uh, a sample of our agenda, what a consent agenda would look like. I know we just had a sample here, but of, you know, [clears throat] kind of in real time of of of what a consent agenda would look like. Um, and then that way I think if you see it, it might make more sense. And, you know, kind of keep in mind, we've made notes of everything that you all have. um stated here.

Okay. Okay. All righty. I think we Any other changes from council or any other suggestions or things we should um make note of Mr. I think we're good. We're good. Was that through the chair?

Okay. Um, is there any more discussion, council? I think we're good. All right. Takes us to number five, adjournment. Move. Second. This motion by Mr. Wsworth, supported by Mr. Wilhigh for the German of this study session. Mr. Wsworth, yes. Mr. uh, Wilhy. Yes. Mr. Bullock. Yes. Mr. Jones. Yes. Miss Rosco. Yes. Chair. Yes. We are journal study session.