Historic District Commission - Regular Meeting

Good evening. Thank you for attending the Historic District Commission meeting this evening. This is meeting number 62026, Thursday, June 18th, 2026. I'm Peter Fosselman, chair of the HDC, and I'm joined tonight by fellow commissioners Seth Dembo, Michael Goldfinger, Anita Neal-Powell, and Mercy Shingai. Cynthia Walters is our acting city attorney from the staff, and also here is Megan Flick, excuse me, Flick, the principal planner, Katie Gerbers, our comprehensive planning manager. So thank you for joining us this evening. The Historic District Commission meets in person, the mayor and council chambers in the city of Rockville. The public is invited to participate virtually via WebEx. The meetings are viewed in Rockville Channel 11. and live streamed at RockvilleMD.gov forward slash Rockville. Excuse me, Rockville 11. Each meeting is also available for viewing after the meeting. It's held at RockvilleMaryland.gov forward slash video on demand. First items on our agenda are committee organizational reports. I see that Nancy's here from Peelers Rockville.

Hi, good evening, everyone. Sorry. Yeah, before I get started, I just wanted to say two things. First of all, I wanted to congratulate Katie on the birth of her daughter and welcome her back to the city. So congratulations to you. And I didn't think I'd have this opportunity, but I see that Sheila Bashiri is in the back of the room. I want to take this opportunity to thank her for all of the things she's done for the city and her many, many reports that she's written over the years that she was here. And Sheila, we hope that you have a wonderful adventure as you go forward and enjoy your retirement. So there's that. Now for my report. Peerless Rockville was pleased to welcome over 100 guests to our tour of Glenview Mansion in May. This marked the 100th anniversary of the 1926 renovation of the mansion, which is Rockville's most beloved landmark. It was a great tour, and I know there'll be another opportunity for people in September when the city hosts an additional event to celebrate. We also, in May, opened our exhibit, Rockville 250, Our American Story, a pictorial exhibit that explores how Rockville grew with the nation from its revolutionary days through the era of slavery, the fight for emancipation, into the mid-century with the baby boom, suburbanization, and we became today's modern and diverse 21st century city. We hope that you will take the opportunity to see the exhibit and also join us at upcoming talks, tours, and other events as part of the 250th programming. In fact, we will be open at the Red Brick Courthouse on Saturday, June 27th from 12 to four as part of Montgomery County Heritage Days. This weekend, Peerless Rockville is pleased to partner with Jerusalem Mount Pleasant United Methodist Church for their Juneteenth Fest on June 20th at 1 p.m. for a lecture. This is entitled How Freedom Came to Rockville, and it will explore the various paths to freedom taken by enslaved individuals Rockville residents before nationwide emancipation. I will also talk about the U.S. Colored Troops from Rockville who were in Texas for the very first Juneteenth. Additionally, there's a talk coming up at our next Glenview event titled The Maryland 400, Revolutionary War Soldiers and the Battle of Brooklyn. And this will be given by the Senior Maryland State Archivist. And we hope you'll join us there. Thank you.

Thank you, Nancy. Just one question. The last event that you mentioned, what date is that one?

That one is July 9th at 7 p.m. Great.

Thank you very much for your report.

You're welcome.

Next on our agenda is the Lincoln Park Historical Foundation. Commissioner Neal Powell.

Good evening. On behalf of the Lincoln Park Historical Foundation and the Leroy E. Neal Black American Research Center, I would like to thank all who came out in support of the 135th anniversary of Lincoln Park on May 30th. It was an awesome time sharing history and remembering the community in its fullness. The parade included horses, historic cars, motorcycles, elected officials, and others. The event will be shown on Channel 11 sometime in the future. Thanks to the city, county, state, and community for continuing our history for the past 35 years. We hosted the Preservation Conference on Preserving Black History in Museums and Historic Places with speakers from diverse backgrounds and expertise. It was awesome and I learned a lot about funding opportunities available in this field from Rockville, Maryland and local black museums and black history inside of museums that were not considered black museums. It was a wholesome experience and we look forward to more conversations around this topic. We will be hosting a 250th anniversary of America in Montgomery County and 100 years of black history all year long event in September, 2026. And more information will be provided at the next month at next month on HTC meeting. Thank you for the opportunity to share. If you want to get involved or to stay in touch, send an email to Lincoln park, H I S T at aol.com. This concludes my report.

Thank you, Commissioner Powell. Now it's time for public comments, open forum. If anyone would like to come forward, please approach the podium, although I do have one person that signed up ahead of time. Magda Brown, who is a member of the Human Rights Commission.

Commissioner Posselman, Magda will be joining us virtually. She's having a technical issue right now. So we can kind of keep going and then I'll flag for you when she's able to join us.

Thank you for letting me know that. Anyone else here this evening or online? Yes, please come forward. And if you could just identify yourself.

Hello, my name is Hannah-Lore Quigley. I live at 2268 Glenmore Terrace in Rockville. On the other side of 270, so we're the Rockville that Rockville forgot about. I'm here as the president of Rockville Cemetery, and I'm pleased to announce we have a big event coming on in September, and I'd like to invite all of you It's on a Sunday, so please put it on your calendars now. It's Sunday, September 20th. We are celebrating the 300th anniversary of Christ Episcopal Church at Rockville Cemetery. We're partnering with the church and we're partnering with the Chamber of Commerce It's listed on the Chamber of Commerce's calendar of events at www.rockvillechamber.org. And I hope to see all of you there. We're gonna have a church service for the Sunday. It's gonna be an outdoor event. We're gonna have several costumed reenactors of people buried at Rockville Cemetery to give the public a little flavor of the kind of people who were buried at Rockville Cemetery and a little bit about local history. And it's a good opportunity to see the cemetery in a different way. I'm going to be there and I hope you'll be there too. Thank you.

Thank you very much for sharing that. You won two points with me. The first one is my birthday is in September. And the second one is I'm an Episcopalian. So I appreciate that information. Anyone else this evening either here with us or online wishing to speak?

Commissioner Fossman, we do have Magda Brown who has joined us virtually. She had signed up in advance.

Okay, thank you, Katie. Ms. Brown, please. You may be on mute, Ms. Brown. There you go. Thank you.

Thank you so much. Good evening. It's a pleasure and honor to be here tonight with everyone. I am here on behalf of the Human Rights Commission of the City of Rockville, and I look forward to looking forward any ways that we can collaborate. So thank you so much. Appreciate you.

Thank you. Thank you for speaking. Anyone else this evening? Anyone online staff? Okay. Thank you very much. Okay. Next on the agenda are the comments from the HTC or staff. Any of the commissioners have any comments this evening? No.

I have a question. It may come under old business, but I want to talk about the preservation conference. So I don't know at what point I should bring that up.

I think now is fine.

Okay, so I know that we have talked previously about having a preservation conference. What I would like to do is to plan to have the preservation conference in November, and I would like to serve on that committee, and I would ask if Commissioner Michael Goldstein would like to serve with me. And we were planning the preservation conference.

Are you putting the commissioner on the spot?

No.

I would be pleased to.

I'm sorry.

I'd be pleased to join you in putting this together.

OK.

And when you say November, you mean November of 2026?

Of 2026.

And we sort of had a bit of a failure for earlier this year in May. So I'm glad to hear that. Thank you.

You're welcome.

And I'd also be happy to help out.

Oh, okay. Thank you.

You're welcome. Any other commissioners have any other comments?

Do we have a date yet for November? No.

No, we do not because we really haven't discussed it. But we would definitely have one for our next meeting. Thank you.

Thank you.

And a place.

And a place. Staff, any comments this evening?

Yes, we have a handful of comments for everyone. The first is that this upcoming Tuesday, June 23rd at 4.30 p.m. is a small event to unveil a historic marker at the site of the Twinbrook Pool. Anyone from the general public and obviously commissioners are welcome to attend that event. There's no RSVP needed. You're welcome to just show up on the day of the event if you would like to participate. I anticipate it would be a relatively short program that we have planned for that. The other staff comment that we have has already a little bit been discussed, but I do want to recognize Michelle. She has served as a preservation planner here for the city of Rockville for the last 12 years and effective next week. She is entering the life of leisure and retiring from public service. So we want to thank Sheila for her many, many years of hard work serving this commission and the city. and let her know that we're going to miss her, and we wish she would change her mind. But we're going to celebrate the fact that she has earned this great next phase of her life.

And thank you very much. If I may add to that, Sheila, we very much appreciate all the work that you put in, and the commissioners have a gift for you. You're welcome to open it now or wait to get home, but it is something that we had special done for you, so we appreciate all of your efforts.

So we're going down the front.

And Katie, thank you for helping me conspire when Sheila would be here and get this together. I appreciate that. Any other comments from the staff? Okay, thank you. Next on the agenda are our consent items. The first one is approval of the minutes from last month on the 21st. May I have a motion?

I move that we approve the minutes of the May Historic District Commission meeting. May I have a second?

Second.

Any discussion? All in favor?

Aye.

Thank you very much next our certificates of approval, the first one is twenty twenty six three five four c o a the applicant is actually our own recreation and parks department. Six or three it's at edston drive edmundson drive thank you. And this is about a box would feature at the glenview mansion.

Okay, thank you. We do have a staff report on file. So this is case 2026354COA for a certificate of approval at 603 Edmondson Drive, which is the historic Glenview Mansion property. And this is a certificate of approval for the removal of boxwoods. So we have the aerial images here showing the Glenview Mansion and the surrounding grounds. So we have An image on the left here showing the boxwoods previously in good health. As you can see, they were in the front of the mansion there. And on the right is the boxwoods in current day. And as you can see, they are dying or already dead. So the application is for the removal of approximately 20 mature boxwoods and to replace with tall fescue blend sod, which will have a mature height of three to four inches. And this is the plan view showing, again, that boxwood feature at the front of the mansion there. And the staff recommendation is finding that the proposal to remove a declining boxwood feature at the front of the Glenview Mansion and replace with tall fescue blend sod meets the Secretary of the Interior's standards for rehabilitation number two and technical guide for alterations number seven, landscaping and trees. Staff recommends approval. Here are your motions.

Thank you, Megan.

Thank you.

Commissioners, have any comments? Anyone here this evening online or with us that would like to make a comment? May have a motion.

Okay, I move the Commission approve Certificate of Approval, Application 2026-356.COA-603, Edmonton Drive. The work meets the Secretary of the Interior's Standards of Rehabilitation, Number 2, and Technical Guide Number 7, Landscaping and Trees.

May I have a second?

Commissioner Shange, can we interrupt here? I think you misspoke with the number on the application. If you can redo the motion to make sure we have the proper number, just to make sure that we are moving the correct application.

I move the Commission approve Certificate of Approval, Application 2026-354-COA, at 603 Edmonston Drive. The work means to get through all the Interior Standards of Rehabilitation, number two, and Technical Guide number seven, Landscaping on trees.

We have a 2nd. Thank you any further discussion. All in favor. Thank you next on our agenda is for the same property and same applicant or recreations and parks department recreation and parks department. This is to plant 30 trees.

Okay, and again, the staff report is on file. This is case 2026358 COA at 603 Edmondson Drive, again at the historic Glenview Mansion. And this is a certificate of approval for a new tree screen, a total of 30 new trees. It would be 17 American hollies and 13 red buds. So again, we have the aerial images showing the Glenview Mansion and property. And then the left image here is the view of the front mall. And the right image shows the plan view, which shows the proposed planting area on the northwestern side of the mansion. And again, it would be 30 new trees, 17 American hollies and 13 redbuds. And the staff recommendation is finding that the proposal to plant 17 American hollies and 13 red buds as a landscaping screen meets the Secretary of the Interior's standards for rehabilitation number two and technical guide for alterations number seven, landscaping and trees. Staff recommends approval. I'm hearing your motions.

Thank you.

Any of the commissioners have any comments? Anyone here this evening or online with us?

OK.

May I have a motion?

Okay. Yeah, I move the commission approve certificate of approval application 2026-358-COA at 603 Edmondson Drive. The work meets the Secretary of the Interior's Standards for Rehabilitation No. 2 and Technical Guide No. 7, Landscaping and Trees.

May I have a second? I second it. Any further discussion? All in favor? Aye. Aye. Okay, next on the agenda is evaluation of significance. Our first is 2026331 EOS. The applicant is Jason Ekus with Pavilion Real Estate, and this is 424 Martins Lane. Staff, do we have a report?

Yes, we do. Okay, this is case 2026-331-EOS at 24 Martins Lane. And it is an evaluation of significance for the purpose of demolition. On your screen, you will see an aerial image with a red pin showing the property. It is an internal lot. It doesn't have direct frontage on Martins Lane, but the legal lot line has a pipe stem extending out with Martins Lane frontage. and vehicle access is via the dry valley to the west of the home. So this slide is showing some historic maps. The historic Hayti community is one of the earliest black communities in Rockville. It was established by Samuel Martin and it traces back to formerly enslaved people on the Bell property. These lands were actually deeded from the Bell family. So the image on the left is showing the Hayti-Martins Lane Historic District. Other parts of this site are designated, but this specific property is not. And the map on the right is from 1916, and it shows the three distinct geographic areas of the Martins Lane District. So that includes Samuel Martins Estate, Bell Subdivision, and then the Bell Parcels. And then there's also a modern development on McLean Court. So this image is showing the original Ross Powell Crutchfield homestead, which was from 1870 through 1988. And the property is outlined here in red. Just want to note here that the homestead remained in the same family and its descendants for several generations until 2023 when the property was sold. So this home is commonly referred to as the Powell Crutchfield House. It's a two and a half story vernacular style home estimated to have been built sometime between 1892 and 1897, although other accounts claim the year built is 1909. And this is a older photo showing the front of the home in 1988. And this is an additional photo from 1988 showing the rear of the home. The home is actually enlarged later on in the 1920s with an L-shaped kitchen wing on the rear of the home, which you can see here. Okay, so getting into the current condition of the home, these photos were taken in April of this year. So this is the front of the home. As you can see, it is in severe disrepair. The front screened porch, the door is falling off, there's ivy growing on the bottom and on the right side here. We have a side elevation here, again, showing deteriorating siding and ivy growing. I think there's also a window missing at the top here. And then again, we have the rear of the home and this is where you can see the roof is in severe disrepair. There's a couple holes where the roof has collapsed. And again, deteriorating siding and a couple missing windows. And then this is the last elevation of the house. So again, you can see the roof collapsing here and a missing window and then again, just the deteriorating siding. So for the interior of the home, these photos are taken from the structural report, which was submitted with the application. So the photos on the left show, again, the damage to the interior of the home. There is extensive damage to the structure, structural features like the stairs, the ceiling, and walls. And then on the bottom left there, you can see the big holes in the roof. And the images on the right just show further damage inside the home. And I believe these are from 2022, which is when the structural report was completed. Before I read the staff recommendation, I do just want to note and acknowledge the clear historic and cultural significance of this property. It does meet several historic significance criteria, so I'm just going to go ahead and go through those. A, it represents the development, heritage, or cultural characteristics of the city. B, it's the site of an important event in Roxville's history. C, it's identified with a person or group of persons who influenced the city's history. And D, it exemplifies the cultural, economic, industrial, social, political, archaeological, or historical heritage of the city. It also meets architectural design and landscape criteria A, which means that it embodies distinctive characteristics of a type, period, or method of construction. So again, just to acknowledge that the structure does meet certain designation criteria, but is considered uninhabitable. So staff recommendation read out is finding that although the property at 24 Martins Lane meets historic significance criteria A, B, C, and D, and architectural design and landscape criteria A. The property is in extreme disrepair as evidenced by the structural report. And as such, staff recommends against historic designation due to the severe neglect of the structure and its lack of integrity. And that's it. Here are your motions.

Thank you, Megan. Thank you. May not be in our purview this evening, so I'll make this a personal comment. I think this is a shame. I think this is tragic. It's an example of where A nice property could have been preserved. I don't know what happened since 1988 going forward. It looks like the first pictures after 1988, I believe, are 2022. Shame on all of us for letting this happen. And I'm thinking that maybe this is a project that the HTC might want to get behind in terms, not this property, but in general, of historic properties or properties that could be possibly historic. to maybe work with the owners to preserve them. This is not the kind of thing I'd like to see in the city of Rockville. And I'm done. But I appreciate the thorough report. Commissioners, any comments?

I have a comment. Is the owners here, owner of the property? Don't we need to hear from him?

Yes, but I thought I'd let the commissioners go first, and then we could hear from folks that want to speak.

Okay, my questions are directly going to be addressed to the owner. Okay.

All right, commissioners, any comments before we? Okay. We have, well, the owner certainly should come forward first, and then we have a number of people that signed up to speak this evening. So if the owner would like to speak, please do come forward.

Good evening, guys. Is there an opportunity for me to wait to let them speak first and then come back?

Sure, absolutely.

I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Okay, so as I mentioned, we have a list of folks that would like to speak tonight. The first one in no special order is Nicole Crutchfield.

Okay.

Okay. There are a number of members from your family. I've got Nicole, Brenda, Gretchen, Wellington, Lashane, and Charlotte. I'm sorry, I have an Elaine as well. I'm not sure if some of them are joining us online this evening. Okay. So everyone that would like to speak is here, so you're welcome to come up individually or as a group.

Do I need to state my name? Yes, please. My name is Lashane Crutchfield. I live at 20 Martins Lane. And I would like to say that I'm urging the commission to recognize the deep historical and cultural significance of the home at 24 Martins Lane, a property that has stand as one of the last remaining physical testaments to the African-American community that has shaped Lincoln Park, Middle Lane, and neighborhoods from that century. The home is not simply an aging structure, but it's a cornerstone of the Crutchfields' family legacy, a family whose roots in Rockville runs generations deep. And within these walls, the Crutchfields built a lifetime for African-American families they faced segregation, redlining, and limited access to housing. Their home was a place of safety, dignity, and belonging, and a place where children were raised, traditions were passed on, and community bonds were strengthened. The Crutchfield family contribute to the social, cultural, and civic life of Rockville. Their presence on Martin's Lane is part of the history of the black resilience in the city, a story that's already fragile and due to decades of displacement, redevelopment, and erasure of historical and black neighborhoods. Demolishing 24 Martin's Lane would not only remove a building, but it would erase an irreplaceable link to Rockville's African American heritage. Once gone, this history cannot be rebuilt, replicated, or recovered. Preserving this home honors the Crutchfield families that borders Martin's Lane community and the generations who fought to create a place for themselves in a city that not always welcomed them. I respectfully ask the commission to protect this home and ensure the legacy of the Crutchfield family, the history of Rockville's black community that remains visible, valued, and persevered for future generations. Thank you.

Thank you very much for your comments. Anyone else from the Crutchfield? Please come forward if you could identify yourself.

Good evening. My name is Wellington Crutchfield, Jr. I'm the seventh generation of the Crutchfields. I need to make a correction real quick is that the original property is the property that I live in at 22 Martins Lane. This property was built by my great uncles. later after they grew up. So the information that you have about this being the original Rothspout is incorrect. It's the home that I live in at 22 Martins Lane. That is the original property for when my ancestors were released as slaves and bought the property. This property was later built afterwards. So if you look at the correct map of the property, you can see that our house that I currently live in was the original home and all the properties that were surrounding it. And as I stated before, I am the seventh generation living in the property I have now. The property next door housed my uncles, my great uncles, my grandparents, and also back then, black educators came up from the South to get a job, and my grandparents housed those educators that worked at Rock Terrace, that worked at Lincoln Terrace, that had the opportunity to continue the growth of the black families in our area. Haithai, as they call it, which originally meant Haiti, but because some of the slaves could not speak it properly, that's how we got Haithai, has a strong, strong sense of community in Rockville. Not only do we have these two properties, but we have the historical grave site, which is half a block down the road. Destroying this piece of property would be very detrimental to the community. Yes, I understand it's very dilapidated and it's bad, but even if we could kick one wall or something to that effect, But I see the blood, sweat, and tears of the ancestors of the slaves that built this piece of property along with the property that we live in right now. So I look back and I see my grandparents. I see my great-grandparents. I see the preachers and the teachers and the architects who came up from the South to teach here, to lay land here. I see all that with this going away, all that's being wiped away. Not only that being like the way we also had the historical graveyard, which is a piece that's tied into this property as well. So I hope you would really think about this and think about the history that we have and what it means to my family, the Ross Prather Powell Crutchfield. We run very deep in this area. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Crutchfield. Any other members of the Crutchfield family? Next, I've got Kelly Faison. Okay. Next, my glasses on. Next is Hannah Laura Quigley.

I'm going to be struggling with my glasses. Good evening, HCC commissioners. My name is Hannah-Laura Quigley, and I'm from Rockville. I lived in Glenora Hills since 1976, and remember the bicentennial that year, when Rockville was an all-American city and starting to care a lot about creating and maintaining its historic districts. and my relatives are from Rockville for the last six generations. Our family has owned property in Rockville since 1805. I'm very much a local girl. I'm here to support the history of the Hayti community and the other first families of Rockville, whose history is coming under erasure by encroaching development. It was with great pleasure that I read the city staff report on 24 Martins Lane that agreed with the assessment of others in the Rockville's historic community that the property at 24 Martins Lane met so many of the Department of Interior's historic guidelines. This is the most glowing report of historical significance I have read from this office, despite glaring details like the date on page 104 of the agenda that says the property was conveyed to Flora Powell in 1983 Flora Powell died in 1945 and was buried in historic Haitai Cemetery. The date should be 1893 and it should be corrected for the record. I wanted to tell you about what's been going on in historic Haitai. The Haitai Cemetery Association was actually created right here in City Hall. In 2017, when Coach Warren G. Crutchfield and his sister Elaine sat down and we signed the Articles of Incorporation, which was the start of the historic association, here one night after hours at 10 p.m. in the room just over there. The brother and sister trustees selected the first board of directors, many of whom are here tonight in person and on this call tonight. This family got together to defend its birthrights as another sixth generation Rockville family and worked hard for their legacy to keep Hayti's history and land intact and safe from developers. For its effort, the family won a hard-fought court case on March 5, 2020, to put the Haitai Cemetery land in the name of the nonprofit Haitai Cemetery Association. They were awarded significant accolades for their efforts, including an award from Montgomery Preservation, Inc., And then the highest award that the state of Maryland has to offer, the Maryland Historical Trust Preservation Partnerships Award. I'm very perplexed that the city staff for preservation is working against historical designation of 24 Martins Lane because of the condition reported by the developer. This is out of scope for this office. You have the opportunity to follow your own guidelines and find this property historically significant. Its significance should not be considered inconvenient because of its disrepair. You have people who want to save it. The family wants it saved. The historic community wants it saved. And I can't even remember the last time I've seen the city staff report so aligned with peerless Rockville. regarding historical significance. Incredible. This is Rockville history and it's important. That's what I came here to say. Thank you very much.

Thank you for your comments and the corrections of the record. Staff, I see that a Mr. Russell signed up, but we're not, did we ever hear back from him?

We did not hear back from him, no. He was signed up for the May meeting, but we did not hear back when we inquired about this meeting.

Okay, thank you for that. Some sign-ups from earlier this evening. We have Nancy Picard from PLS Rockville.

Good evening again, Chair Fosselman and members of the Commission. I'm Nancy Picard, Executive Director for Peerless Rockville. I'm hoping I have five minutes of an organization. Is that still a thing? Okay, thank you. As you know, Peerless Rockville has a 50-year-plus history of researching, surveying, and evaluating properties in the Rockville community. And thus, we have decades of significant expertise on historical periods, patterns of development, and other factors that are imperative for the evaluation of historic properties. Although we agree that the condition of the current structure at 24 Martins Lane is severely deteriorated, and also that its preservation may be beyond that of a classic historic rehabilitation. We do not agree that the recent years of neglect of the structure prohibits this entire property from being zoned historic. Furthermore, we agree with the staff findings that the property at 24 Martins Lane meets the city's historic significant criteria A, B, C, and D, as well as architectural design and landscape criteria A. The city's findings for this property generally reflect that it is representative of the development, heritage, and cultural characteristics of the city. In particular, its relevance and strong importance to the nascent black community known as Hattie. which grew on the edge of Rockville and provided a place for the recently enslaved and their immediate descendants to live, love, learn, and enjoy the right of a secure home, land ownership, and economic stability that had been so cruelly withheld from them before. The property is part of a generational enclave of the Ross Powell Crutchfield family. In 1976, when the Powell Crutchfield house was evaluated for the Maryland Inventory of Historic Properties, it was described as a well-preserved example of a late 19th century homestead house. Regretfully, we can all see that during the past 20 plus years, the property has not been maintained. It is now deteriorating and has lost some degree of its historic integrity. However, whether this home is a candidate for a historical restoration or must be demolished should not detract from your review this evening. You are tasked with deciding whether the property retains enough historic significance to the city and to its residents to be rezoned with a historic overlay. The particular parcel and the adjacent parcels are known to have been deeded from Margaret Bell of the Bell Dawson House and Farm to individuals formerly held in slavery. The parcels of land were originally conveyed with restrictions notably unique to newly freed individuals. As noted in the staff report, The property was conveyed originally to Flora Ross Powell and her husband, Adam Powell. It is likely that Flora, who was born in 1856, was herself enslaved by the Bells as a child. We know that the Bell family sold parcels of land to newly freed peoples and other black families, and it is here in Hayti that several generations of the Ross, Wood, and Smith families remain for many years. They grew their families and established a recognizable black kinship community. From its late 19th century beginning and up until today, this small but significant community has stood as a testament to the tenacity of the early owners and the desire for a better future for their children. For the people who founded the Haitai community, owning land was a chance for prosperity, the possibility of a stable future for their descendants, and status. Martin's Lane in Hayti continues to be a source of pride and an example of resourcefulness for those who live here today. The Hayti-Martin's Lane community was researched and surveyed in the late 1980s and documented in a Maryland Inventory of Historic Properties form, noted as a significant I'm sorry, I'm very hoarse today, which clearly exemplified the cultural, social, and economic heritage of Rockville's early black community. Although there is not currently a contiguous local Hayti Martin's Lane historic district in Rockville, peerless would argue that this property would clearly fit the criteria to be included with surrounding properties into a larger recognized district. In fact, the Maryland Historical Trust deemed Hayti-Martins Lane to be a significant resource and in 2003 recognized it as eligible for the National Register of Historic Places under historic criteria A and C, demonstrating its association with historic events as land owned by former enslaved persons and for the architectural significance of its vernacular architecture. Thank you for listening.

Thank you, Nancy. Appreciate your comments. Next on the agenda is Kevin Zaleski.

Good evening, Commissioners. As you said, my name is Kevin Zaletsky. I live at 101 North Street. I'll speak to you tonight a little bit more of an outsider. My backyard abuts the property that's in question tonight, and also the backyards of multiple of the Crutchfield family's backyards as well, who, as we all know, are descended from from slaves formerly belonged to Margaret Bell, and then who settled in these very properties in the Haitai community once they were freed. I've lived there for almost 25 years. I've had the opportunity over that time to get to know many of the long-term residents of the Haitai community. I had the opportunity to befriend them. Sadly, many of the the patriarchs of that Hittite community are now passing away and along with them the history of that community. I'm talking about people like George Snowden of the Snowden Funeral Home. He hasn't passed away, but Selden Higgins, who's now 100 years old and unfortunately now is rehabilitating from an injury in a nursing home. Then of course, Warren Crutchfield. who was the patriarch of the Crutchfield family. Over the years, I've spoken to Mr. Crutchfield, our backyards came right against each other, many, many times. He proudly spoke to me often of his family, of the history of his family, specifically of his pride in those properties on Martin's Lane. I've walked with him through Haytai Cemetery, where he proudly showed me where his grandparents were buried and all of his ancestors. Most significantly, though, I've had the opportunity over that quarter of a century to watch the Crutchfield family celebrate countless family reunions, holidays on this very property that we're talking about, as they have no doubt done for the last 150 years. I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say that, to Warren Crutchfield, and obviously now to the Crutchfield family, that these properties are sacred ground, no less sacred than the property of the Hayti Cemetery. the precious and fragile history of our freed black population. It was told in Rockville's oldest black kinship communities like Hayti. These communities and the history of these communities is no less significant. And I would, in fact, argue that they complement and complete the story of what we would say are signature and much better preserved historic sites, things like the Glenview Mansion, Rose Hill Manor, and certainly places like Bell Dawson House that these histories directly attach. You can't have the full story of the history of Rockville, one without the other. Unfortunately, places like 22 Bartons Lane are rapidly being lost, whether it's due to sale or to dilapidation, largely because the families that traditionally own them don't come from means, right? These aren't families like the people who own Glenview Mansion, right? So they don't always have the option of keeping these properties up and maintained. We are incredibly fortunate, I think, as a city that we still have pieces of history like this intact through the homes that are in these areas, the land that are in these areas, and amazingly enough, through the families. I mean, we talk about a historic kinship community, but this isn't history like it's something in the past. This is living history. These families still exist. They still have this kinship community, and these properties and the land that connects these properties is very integral to that kinship, that living, breathing kinship community that still exists today. I would also argue that these families places aren't just a piece of Rockville history. This is really a piece of American history. As we go to celebrate the 250th year of our country, the history of our freed Black slaves in places like this in Rockville really belong to the entire country. And it's really our responsibility and our duty as a city to try to preserve those for everyone in the country. But it's important to note that once these places are gone, they're gone forever. And we will never have them back. I'm not an expert on historic district zoning. I think I echo a lot of what Nancy said, which is I think that Rockville should, at a minimum, consider creating a multi-site historic district. Obviously, 22 Martins Lane is already designated historic. I think they should include 22 Martins Lane in that, Hayti Cemetery, and other historic properties that exist in that area. As other folks have said, it's not just the physical property of the home itself, but the entire property and the land that should be designated as historic. I think even if every timber on that house needs to be replaced, the location of the house where it sits in relation to 22 Martins Lane, the context of the home and the land in relation to the entire community, it's vital to preserving the history and the overall character of the neighborhood. There are precedents for designating properties historic even in the absence of structures. Chestnut Lodge is a perfect example after it burnt down. These types of things have been talked about. And I know you expressed your sadness over how this hasn't been addressed. These things have been talked about since the 1980s. I sent for the record. I think it came to you guys by email, but multiple articles since the 1980s that have discussed this community, the families in this community, the need to preserve the history there. Hopefully, you've had a chance to review some of those. In that note, I just want to follow with one quote from Warren Crutchfield from the Washington Post in an article about him and his family. This was back in August of 2000. He simply said, The generation behind us told us, this is your forefather's land. It's yours to take care of. That's something we would like to instill in the next generation. So hopefully with those words from Warren Crutchfield, we can instill that in our city and protect these lands for our next generation. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Zalewski, and thank you for sharing that information that you sent in to the staff. Next on our list is Mayor Newton.

Good evening, Chair and members of the Commission. It's nice to see you, Ms. Bell. My name is Bridgette Donald-Newton. I am a 46-year resident of the city of Rockville. a newbie to some people, old-timer to me. And Chair, I want to start with commenting on what you said, and Mr. Zaletsky mentioned it as well. I think that that could be the next overture for the HDC, working in tandem with Peerless. I think we do need to have some sort of a mechanism to support owners of historic homes. Kevin said it very well. The reason homes fall into disrepair is because people don't always have the means to keep them up. And in this case, I'm sure it comes from centuries of not having the ability to buy where you wanted to buy, to have the means to pass money through generations on and on. And I think that that's something that we need to reckon with. And we can make a difference and make that change. So I want to thank you for bringing that up and support it in any way I can. I am here to respectfully request that you deny the staff recommendation and that you do designate this property. As Kevin mentioned, Chestnut Lodge, I lived through that as the mayor, was designated even after, by benign neglect, Chestnut Lodge burned. i think there are many many things we can do in this city and you know i've said for years we are a city of neighborhoods we are a city of the people who built this city and among those people are the former enslaved african-american people they're part of us and we need to acknowledge that and maybe make amends in ways for things that we didn't take care of and things that we didn't do and this would be one of the ways we could start that process. It is the country's 250th birthday. It's Rockville's 150th coming up. I think there are things that we need to start doing going forward to really show that we're gonna walk the walk. There is no better time than right now to stand up for people. We're seeing it all over. History is being erased. And just today, there was another announcement about something about our African-American history that is being erased. So this is a time we can do the right thing. And I would respectfully urge all of you to vote to designate this property historic. Thank you.

Thank you, Mayor Newton. Okay, that is the end of the list of people that have signed up ahead of time. If anyone's here this evening in the audience or joining us online, if you would like to speak, please let us know. I don't see anyone. Do you staff? No. Okay. So that concludes our public testimony. Commissioners. Oh I'm sorry forgive me please if you like to come forward and make official comments. Good evening everybody.

Good evening chair and members of the commission. My name is Jason Ekus, I am the owner of Pavilion Real Estate and I'm appearing on behalf of the owner NRHQLLC on the evaluation of significance for 24 Martins Lane. Before anything else, I want to be clear about what this property represents. This is part of the Haytai, one of the oldest African American communities in Rockville. And this ground was home to the Ross, Powell, and Crutchfield family for more than a century, beginning with Flora Ross and Adam Powell in the 1880s. In the West End that Samuel Martin and families like theirs built, we do not take that history lightly, and nothing we ask tonight is meant to diminish that. That history is real, and it deserves to be honored. Part of your submission this evening of our application is a structural engineer's report performed by Dr. Yaya Alibadi, PE, who examined the building and concluded that it cannot be repaired or restored, that most of its structural members have collapsed or rotted, and that it is no longer safe to enter. That report is already in the record before you. When the owner acquired this property, it was standing open and unsecured. Anyone could walk in off the street. It was a hazard the day it was taken on, and it remains one. When a building has failed, This completely, designating it, it does not preserve history. It preserves a danger. The history of this family and this community does not live in rotted joists and a fallen roof. It lives in the record and in the memory of the people who carry it. That is why the staff report recommends against designation and we respectfully ask the commission to adopt that recommendation. Designation would not save this building. It would only delay the inevitable while an unsafe structure remains standing. The history deserves to be remembered. We simply do not believe a collapsed and unsafe building is what remembers it. Thank you for your time and thank you for protecting Rockville's history.

Thank you very much and forgive me again for forgetting you. It wasn't on purpose, I appreciate it. No problem. Anyone else this evening listening to speak? No one online, great, thank you. Commissioners, any comments?

You can go ahead.

Yeah, so I've been sitting here putting my thoughts together, listening to all the noble words that have come forth. A couple of questions come to mind. Where was the Hittite community in the last three or four decades when this house was vacant? I drive past that community many times. It's a marvel that it's something that the community can be proud of. in general, especially given the history of the hardships that the people had to endure, and yet they created this wonderful community. with the exception of this house. Why was it allowed to deteriorate to this extent? I don't understand that. If the community feels that sort of sense of pride, then they should have done something well before tonight's meeting. And so, that's one concern I have. The other one is, Were you to restore it from the report and from the pictures and everything, are you looking at a complete demolition anyway and a rebuilding? If it's rebuilt, none of the materials are original. And so actually, I would ask Cindy Walters if that. But I believe that no longer would qualify it as a historic structure. Is that correct, Katie? if you rebuild something. So I don't see what the point is for designating this as historic to just sit there and rot or tear it down and replace it with something which is not historic. It's a danger to the community. It's an eyesore. I would think the community would rather have something that speaks highly of the community rather than something that's And actually, to be honest, hundreds of times I've driven past there, I never knew it was back there because it's set way back from the street. But I did the other day stop and actually said, oh yeah, there it is. If I was in that community, I don't think I would want that in my neighborhood. And despite the historic significance of it, I know it's historic. And there's a lot of history behind it. But it was allowed to deteriorate, which brings up another issue that I think I'd like to talk about before the meeting. concludes which is um uh demolition by neglect and i think we need to as a commission and as a city we need to address that but i'll put that off until maybe later uh in this meeting so um That's what I have to say. I think it's sad that it was allowed to get to this point. I think maybe the community has some things to answer for that. If what you say is the spirit of this community, I think it's lacking in this particular building that you allowed this to happen. The other houses around there are just wonderfully maintained and it's a tribute to the community that is the case with this one exception. So that's what I have to say.

Thank you, Commissioner. Staff, I have a question of clarification before the other commissioners go forward. Is the HCC looking at the designation of just that structure, or is the HCC looking at the designation of the property?

It would be the property. The designation follows the parcel.

Okay, thank you for clarifying that. Any other comments from the Commission? Commissioner Powell, I know you had one.

No, I have six.

You have several, okay. Brace yourselves.

You are absolutely correct. Just one moment.

Of course.

Excuse me. My questions are to the applicant. When you purchase a property, were you aware of the family's family history, kinship, community, and its historic significance in the city? And as staff indicated, it does meet the criteria, historic significant criteria, A, B, C, and D. Could you please come to the podium?

Good evening, Commissioner. Unfortunately, I can't speak to that because I wasn't the purchaser. This was a property that went through a foreclosure and an auction and reverted back to the lender. So I don't, I couldn't tell you. I would assume not.

Okay.

But that's just an assumption and not a fact.

Okay. So you're here speaking on behalf of the owner, correct? Okay, so you may not be able to answer some of these questions, but I'm going to ask them anyway.

I hope so. I'll answer what I can.

Thank you very much. You're asking to have it demolished based on the structure of the house because you do not want to restore it due to the amount of work that is required.

Is that a question?

Yeah, that is a question. You're asking to have it demolished because it costs too much to...

It has nothing to do with cost.

Okay.

That's all I can really speak to. There's nothing beyond... We know that property is unsafe. We can't repair or restore it. So the only other thing is to demolish it.

So you're asking about having it demolished based on the structure of the house?

Based on the engineer's report, correct.

And the amount of work that is required.

Yes. Not? Can I? Not because of the? I'm used to hard work. I'm used to big jobs. I'm used to complex jobs. But when the vessel isn't worth or can't be saved, then we can try to shore it up as best we can. It's not going to live on as it should. It's just going to keep getting worse no matter what we do to it. Does that make sense?

Okay. If the demolition is approved, would you be willing to place a historical marker on the property?

I can't speak for the owner directly about that, but I don't see why not.

Okay. We got some kind of remembrance or something. I don't know anyway.

Because there is, and I'm sorry to interrupt, there is the marker on 24 Martins Lane, or on Martins Lane, that has the Hayti signage. But I think it would be great to have something on the property as well.

That's a different sign. You're talking about the 22, correct? Yes. That's a different sign. I'm not talking about that sign. I'm talking about where the house currently is located to have a historical marker placed there identifying that particular home on 24th. You don't know how to answer? Okay.

Personally, I don't see why not. I think it would be a fantastic tribute to what's there. That makes sense.

What's been there for that time?

What's been there. Yes, correct. Perhaps a cornerstone from what we can pull out from. So have you ever heard of a company called Second Chance?

Yes.

I love Second Chance.

It's in Silver Spring.

I think it's an awesome company. And anything that we could save bringing them in that can be reused, it's interesting. And I don't mean to get off track. In the District of Columbia, our capital, Washington, D.C., anything more than 50 years old is considered historic. Well, I'm 56 years old. And... That kills me every time I walk there. Now, a couple of years ago, I was in Portugal. And Portugal has set up what I think is incredible. They set up this library where if a building is in such disrepair as 24 Martins Lane, you can actually take those materials down and they bank them. in offsite someplace for other generations to come and they actually give those materials to those generations to use as materials incorporated in building new homes. And I discussed that with Washington, D.C., and they were like, no, that's a horrible idea. We would never want to do that. But I think it's a great idea for the city of Rockville as well for some of these properties that if we can capture some of the materials, have them reclaimed and used elsewhere or incorporated in a new structure, I think that really kind of tributes what was once there and how those communities came and evolved. You know, growing up in Detroit, there was a lot of that as well. We took a lot of the scraps, basically, and built new structures out of them. And I think it's a great tribute to what could happen to a lot of neighborhoods, not just keeping dilapidated homes that you can't restore and you can't rebuild,

And and at some point taking those materials and and I'm moving on the board So yes So in this place if the demolition is approved And I already know the answer when I answer the question. Sure. Do you plan to rebuild the house and same or similar structure? I to really keep the living history alive, especially as we celebrate the history of the city and we call ourselves all Americans.

I can't speak to that because I haven't spoken to the owner about what comes next. And can you repeat the first part of your question?

I said if demolition is approved, do you plan to We plan to rebuild the house. We have no plans to rebuild the house.

And what about the structure?

Similar structure. It could be if you demolished it, it would be a house. Would it look similar or the same?

Yes, because I hate McMansions and stuff that doesn't fit in the neighborhood. So, yeah, it would absolutely have some sort of, you know, you wouldn't build a glass house there.

Okay.

at least in my personal opinion.

So, okay, so your plan is to build, if demolition happens, I think it's 182 unit condominiums in this place? No. Okay. Okay. I have, well. Have you?

No.

Although if it is demolished, let's just say if it is if it is approved What do you plan to do?

We have no plans you're just going to demolish the house and Do nothing just have open land we're circle back with the The LLC that owns it and they figure out what they want to do. My prime directive is really to represent them because they're out of state and Take it through this process

Depending on what you plan to do, if it is demolished, would you need to purchase any of the other properties that's nearby? No. For your project?

I don't see why we would.

And just to make a comment, sometimes when we have historic homes, the owners may not have the money to redo the house or maintain the house and they may not know about grants and other funding opportunities to help with that situation. So I just wanted to say that I know a comment was made about the money but have you, but sometimes you just don't have the money. I mean, sometimes you're in an inherited home, and that's something that you inherit, and you may not have the money to maintain it.

I agree.

That could be one of the reasons why the house is in disarray as it is right now.

And you seem like you're making that question, comment towards me, but I didn't say anything about money. No, no, no.

Actually, it's not. It's just a question. No, it's not even a question. It's a comment. A comment. To say why some people, yeah, you wouldn't be able to answer that anyway because you're like somewhere else.

But I would.

Yeah, but no, I'm just making a comment that in some cases, generations will inherit properties and they may not be able to maintain it, especially of this age. That's all I'm saying. It wasn't directed at you, but if you want to answer it, you can. But if you can't, then I'm fine.

I have lots of comments about it. I mean, I rehabbed my house myself with my own two hands. And I believe in the statement of it takes a village and you bring the community together and hopefully they'll all work together. Habitat for Humanity is kind of an example, second chance of reusing the material. I don't think overall it takes a great deal of money. And I don't think money is, it's never been important to me. It's not the object of really what we're, you know, we're looking in my own experience to, it's not what drives us. It's at least me and my family. You know, we work on stuff ourselves. So for me, that's the important part of kind of really life and to show something afterwards. I hope that makes sense. But I leave it up to you guys so they do have an outlet of some place to go so you guys can kind of direct them that there are grants, there are other avenues that the community can come together. And I think it would be a great, because there are so many different voices that kind of talk, but don't perform, and I think you guys would have a good kind of track on where people can get stuff done. I do a lot of properties in Baltimore, and it's kind of the same thing where, you know, hey, there's this grant money, but the grant money is $5,000, so... Other than buying paint, what are you going to really use that money for? And it's kind of a false hope. You really need to make sure that you're investing in the neighborhood and really showing that these homes are worth saving.

I'm going to politely interrupt. I think we're pretty far off topic. Oh, we are way off topic. I appreciate your comments.

Chair Fossman, on that note, we have Acting City Attorney Walters has her hand raised.

I believe she has a comment to make.

Please, Ms. Walters.

Good evening, HTC. I just wanted to point out that the evaluation of significance for legal purposes is limited and it does not really encompass what is going to happen to the property after. It doesn't encompass what kind of house they plan to build, et cetera. So the evaluation of significance is limited to whether or not what's currently there is legally significant, historically significant, and it does not encompass what is going to go on the property afterwards. So just wanted to make that point. And I hope that helps with your deliberations.

Appreciate your advice always. Staff, I have two comments. Well, one's a question. One is, did I misread somewhere that this property has been advertised for, quote, a dream home or the home of your dreams or something to those words?

Staff is not aware of that. When we last checked with our development review division, we have not yet received any development applications for what would happen on this home in the future. There may be speculation, but the city has not received that.

Okay, thank you. Um, and then 2nd, before the other commissioners. Just to get back on my original clarification about we're looking at the property. and I'm not giving how I'm gonna vote or anything like that, but my question is, if we move forward with designating the property historic, may the owner still demolish the house?

So if it would, so this body, as you all know, because we've gone through this as a crew several times before, this body would make a recommendation whether to proceed with historic designation or not. Ultimately, then, if you did decide that you wanted to pursue designation for this property, We would file a sectional map amendment. It would go through a process before the planning commission and the mayor and council, ultimately with the mayor and council being the body that determines whether we do designate the structure or not. If we went through that and this property was designated, any exterior alterations would require a certificate of approval. So in the instance that the owner still did want to demolish the structure, they would have to come to you all with a certificate of approval application for that demolition. Certainly we don't see that happening all that often, although we do have one other case I can think of in the city where we do have an historic site that the structure on site was so severely deteriorated that this body did approve a certificate of approval. Now, if the house, if the property were to be designated, the house were to be approved for demolition, again, any alterations would have to come to this body. So new construction would have to come to this body.

So just to make sure that I understand If the property itself is designated historic and the applicant comes back for demolition and that's approved and they come again for a new project, whatever that is, and that's approved, then the property still stays historic, but the new structure can be built there and it could be a single family home or whatever the zoning is.

That's correct. We have a few examples of similar cases right in this neighborhood as well as some of the other properties on the other side of Martins Lane where the property was designated because of one original structure and then it was subdivided and new structures were built on it as well.

Thank you. I appreciate that very much.

We looked at, not that long ago, we looked at some solar panels on basically a new house, but because it was built on a historic property, the HCC had to look at that, if you remember. It was not that long ago.

Commissioners, any other comments?

I have a question for staff. So I was going to ask, is there any platform where the city goes around to check to see houses that are in similar condition?

So we just recently hired a zoning inspector for the city. That is one of many of the zoning inspector's tasks. I will note that zoning inspector started about two weeks ago. So in theory, yes. In practice, the zoning inspector is responsible as one individual for enforcing the entire zoning ordinance throughout the city. So in theory, yeah, but there's just a lot on that person's plate.

Okay, the staff know that this building existed like two years ago. Were you aware that the building existed in this city? Like the condition?

Was staff aware? Yes. Yeah.

I'm just wondering how we can avoid something similar to happen in the future. Is there anything that we can do to avoid something of a similar situation in the near future?

It's tricky, right? There's certainly many ideas of programs that could potentially be used. Of course, those programs then require funds. In the past, this body has looked at developing a sort of incentive program for historic properties. We did bring that several years ago through the budget process. Ultimately, that request was not funded. In theory, we could ask again in the future. There's nothing that stops us and says we can only ask once. I'm sure there are programs that could attempt to address this. how well resourced those programs would be in our community. If that would be enough to move the needle, I can't say. Thank you.

Thank you, commissioner. Any other comments this evening from the commission?

Um, a lot of what I was going to say has already been said, which is great by both, um, members of the community and my, my fellow commissioners. Um, When I read this last month, when I sat down and I was amazed. I mean, this is probably one of the two or three most consequential properties that we've had to look at since I've been on the commission for the last five years. There's no doubt in my mind and I don't think there can be any doubt in anybody's mind that this is not one of the most historic properties in the city. Just just everything about the history of the hate I commit community from when the land was was purchased or granted to to the freed slaves of the bell family and then you know and then developed into this community. over generations and to the extent to which that community still exists. So my question really to myself as I was reading this is what can we do as a body to protect this? Because that's what our remit is as the Historic District Commission. to protect properties like this, to find ways of making sure that the historic fabric of our city is maintained as much as possible. And there are problems with that. And I will remind my fellow commissioners that the ongoing zoning ordinance rewrite will include a, will finally include a demolition by neglect ordinance to make it, to protect properties like this to some extent so that the city has a way of helping to protect these properties. I also think, and David Hill, former member of the Planning Commission for the city got up at our last meeting and mentioned the fact that our historic resources catalog is so out of date that it doesn't do what it's supposed to do anymore. And we have repeatedly asked Marin Council for money to do this. I think we should still keep asking Marin Council for money to do this. And I've been thinking about some sort of a letter to Marin Council, at least from myself, and maybe we should think about it for the commission. to sort of admonish mayor and council to fund this. Because we can't do any of this without really knowing what our resources are. So those two points are larger points related to trying to protect the historic fabric of the city. I am, and all of the conversations we've had, and I appreciate your question, because that's like the first question is, Ken, what are we looking at? Are we looking at the property? Are we looking at the building here? I think when you look at the property and when you look at its relationship to the rest of the, to the cemetery, to the other designated properties around it, to the community itself, It seems to me that maybe we do have a way of saying you know, okay, we want to recommend historic designation for this. That doesn't mean that, as we've just been told, that the house can't come down in the future. That doesn't mean that it doesn't completely prevent the owners from doing what should be done with this property is make it into something that can be loved by somebody but still retain its relationship to the larger community and still retain its value as a historic, as part of the historic fabric of our city. So I guess that's all I have to say. My only comments and I really appreciate all of this conversation tonight because I think it's been fascinating and also valuable for the for the sort of for this property, but also for the role of the HTC in the city. I would like to see Marin Council have to consider this at least. It's a poster child for why we need this demolition by neglect. I know this is going through, but it's something, you know, it is, I've said it three times already. This is clearly one of the most historic properties in the city. And it's our job to say that whether or not a property is historic as a body, that's what we are, that's our legal responsibility as a body. None of what comes afterwards really matters at this point. And, you know, If we say that, then the mayor and council actually have to look at this and consider it and realize what's happened here and think about their role in preserving that fabric. And I'll end there.

Thank you, Commissioner. Any other comments from the commission? OK. Any further discussion? Do I hear a motion?

I'll make a motion.

OK.

There's no further discussion? Nope. OK. So finding that the building proposed for demolition at 24 Martins Lane meets the Historic District Commission's, HDC's, adopted criteria for historic significant criteria A, B, C, and D in architectural design and landscape significance criteria A. I move that the HDC recommend historic designation.

May I have a second? Second sorry any further discussion all in favor Can we do a roll call of in favor and opposed just so we can have it filled the call anyone opposed So one more time all in favor chair Fosselman Commissioner Powell, Commissioner Dembo, Commissioner Senge. All opposed? Commissioner Goldfinger.

Thank you.

Thank you for asking. Okay, next on the agenda is old business, commissioners. I have, I'm sorry, did you have something in here? I have just one thing to discuss, and that's the letter that the Historic District Commission has put forth to the staff in reference to Katie Misker base.

Apologies.

That's okay. We understand.

Can we repeat the question?

Yes. I didn't even get to the whole question, actually, and I realized I looked up and I know it wasn't your fault. The old business I wanted to bring up is the letter that the HTC has in reference to the preservation month of May. It's already June, and I know that you all have indicated that it'll be somehow possible published somewhere, at least at the website, but I just wanted to express my disappointment that it cannot be put into the city's newsletter, or at least as I've said at the last three meetings, at least a tiny blurb and then maybe a link or a way for people to find out further information about and read the letter in its entirety. I'm just disappointed. And I will add, for the record, I think that there's a lack of understanding of not only in our officials but also our residents in the city as to what the htc does and the significance of the historic districts and and that's not to be negative it's just that the point is is i think our awareness needs to be raised and if the city puts any value in their historic properties um they should have this letter get some more publicity than what's being proposed and this is not anti-staff, I know where you all are speaking from, but I'm just disappointed. That's it, thank you. Commissioner Goldfinger.

Yeah, I wish to add to what Chairman Fosselman said, but I submit for your edification. Rockville reports, this was from February, and right there, Glenview Mansion marks 100 years as historic icon. So there is a recognition of the city's history, but it's sort of piecemeal. And I think the letter that Pete, Commissioner Fosselman drafted, sort of encompasses the entire historic preservation efforts within the city. And I think, you know, I just want to support what he just said. It needs to be recognized some way other than just the website. But, you know, there is a precedent for historic stuff in the newsletter. So there you go. You can have this if you want.

Thank you. Thank you. Any other comments from the commission? New business, or excuse me, old business? Okay. Yes, go ahead, please.

Yeah, I just wanted to, I sort of alluded to it before in my sort of rambling speech about a demolition by neglect. And I'm not up to what's really going on. Commissioner Dembo did allude to the fact that the zoning update will include that. But there's no, are there gonna be any teeth to it? if something's identified, Here's a perfect example. It was almost four decades allowed to just sort of deteriorate, and nobody did anything about it. Should there be some teeth in it, some penalties or incentives or something that we don't run into these things more and more? Because it seems like that's the way you get around demolishing historic structures is you just let them deteriorate. over time and then you come and say, well, it's not safe, we have to tear it down. And that's not what I think we should be about. So I'm just sort of throwing that out. You know, if you need all five of us at the next Mayor and Council meeting or some point, I think we would all be there to show support. But, you know, let's sort of, what do I want to say? get at the importance that we all think it deserves. Just, there you go.

So just a couple of notes on that. Commissioner Demo did bring up the zoning ordinance rewrite. That is currently slated on the agenda of June 29th before the mayor and council for adoption. My understanding is there have been some tweaks to the language regarding historic preservation that this body has discussed in the past. Admittedly, I'm not fully caught up yet on what all of those tweaks are. I have some red lines that I need to read through. But my understanding is demolition by neglect is still in there. and the teeth is exactly what the proposed revision is. Currently, there is a definition of demolition by neglect in our code, but it does not actually say you can't do it, and it doesn't say there's a penalty for doing it. So that's what the proposed change would be, is allowing the enforcement action to take place. Now, I will note, as of February when I left, how it was currently drafted, that section on demolition by neglect, applies to historic properties. So if there is a property that is not designated, demo by neglect would not necessarily apply to that property. That would be then our property maintenance code, which also has enforcement teeth, but it's a different vehicle, if that makes sense.

Which is why we need a new catalog.

I do not disagree with you.

I know we're preaching to the choir here, but yeah. I think this is the big thing that we need to really push with mayor and council from my point of view. And I think Katie would agree because it's something you've been pushing for for a while. Not just Katie, Sheila as well. Because without that, without really knowing what the resources are and having a clear document that that we can turn to to say to mayor and council, look, this property is a problem. We need to, or let's think about which of these properties we now need to designate because we'll lose stuff.

If we're talking about 50 years, that 50 years is always moving on, right?

We're all getting older. We're not getting any younger. So I think we need to come up with some means for really getting in front of mayor and council. And I mean, I've had some informal talks with them when I've seen them at events around town with various members of mayor and council. And I think the more we do that and the more we actually get in their faces and say, we really need to spend some money on a new catalog. to say what are the historic resources? What historic resources aren't listed? Because how old is the last time this was done? 40 years?

Maybe not that long? The catalog, I believe, is from 2011. Okay.

Yes. So still, that's getting close to... That's a young adult. That's 15 years, right. So, yeah. That's all. Thank you, Commissioner.

I would like... One or two things that happened, maybe for this rezoning rewrite, we can, as a commission, we could speak to it, you know, and particularly regarding the historic aspects of it or individually. But I think that this opportunity for us to be in front of mayor council to share our views of what's really going on. I mean, the letters, I'm sure they could have put it in there, but they didn't. So, you know, we need to let them know that we are here for the city and we're here to preserve and do the things that we are required to do. And we're sort of being stopped from doing that. So I don't know what the letter would say, but I think that we do need to weigh in on the rewrites. And is there a copy of, where can we find a copy of the rewrite, the Sony rewrite?

Yeah, so it will be in the packet. I don't know if the packet might have been published already, but it's also available on Engage Rockville. So if you go to engagerockville.com slash zoning rewrite, there's quite a few documents on there. But they have kind of like a clean version of the proposed draft as well as a red line that you can kind of see what the changes may have been.

Katie, could you do us a huge favor and send an email to us reminding us that the meeting's June 29th and then a link to that specific, or if you can, a PDF of just the aspects of the HCCs.

Yep, you got it.

Thank you. Because of my dyslexia and I tried going online looking through that huge

So what do you all think? Would you like to? It's too late. We've done that. I know, but... Microphone, please. More than once.

Go ahead.

More than once is great.

I'm happy to write letters to Mayor and Council until my... Ken falls off. I mean, we should be getting in front of mayor and council as much as we can, but for the zoning ordinance rewrite, I mean, they're going to adopt it at the end of the month. We've submitted, I wrote a letter last year. We reviewed all the changes as a body, made our recommendations through Katie and Sheila. The opportunity to do that has passed. They're going to adopt it. And I think, again, we can still... keep on with them about understanding what the HTC is and how things, and what our role is and all that, but on specifically the zoning ordinance, we've done what we can, I think.

But for clarification, the 29th is when they're going to adopt it? Yes. Okay, sorry, I missed that part.

Yeah, but you have community form.

Yeah. Okay.

I mean, well, I may do it myself, but I think it looks better if it's coming from the commission. But it's you all's call.

So the message, and I'm available on the 29th, that's why I was going through my phone. The message that you all are talking about is not only... the aspect of the rewrite of the zoning ordinance. We were talking about the bigger picture of funding, having more of a presence in the city, support, maybe even some education, those kind of things. Is that what the commission's, the bigger picture, or am I not hearing the message?

I think those are all good messages and important ones that we should be I think my feeling would be that we should do that separate from seeing, from connecting, we shouldn't connect that to the zoning ordinance rewrite because I feel like that, they're different issues. They're important and they'll enable us and future HTC bodies to have a, to have better means to perform our role, but I think those are separate from the zoning ordinance rewrite stuff. I mean, I would like to see what the red lines are, to see what's changed since, and I know I probably should have engaged earlier in the month when they were having their working sessions, but life is busy. But that would be helpful to see what's changed and what they are. As you said, the red lines, Katie, so if you could do that, send us that, that would be great.

Okay, any other comments from the commissioners under old business? Or do we even get the new business? I don't know where we were, but we're an old business. Okay, any new business? No? Anybody's business?

No? Okay. I apologize for not, you know, I've been giving brief summaries of historic structures, and I hope to get back to that next month. We're happy to see you back with us.

I'm happy to be back. You're forgiven, given your health issues.

Okay, well, if there's nothing else, Sheila, again, we really appreciate all of your efforts. We wish you a happy retirement.

And I appreciate your efforts as well. Of course.

You might have picked a good time. Okay, may I have a motion to adjourn? May I have a second?

I move to adjourn the meeting.

May I have a second? Second. All in favor? Thank you all, thank you staff, thank you Channel 11.