Planning Board - Regular Meeting

recording in progress.

Good evening. In accordance with the provisions of Mass General Law, chapter 30A, section 20, notice is hereby given that the zoning board of appeals is meeting tonight, Wednesday, November 19th, 2025, 700 p.m. in the town hall meeting room 124. Now, members of the public are welcome to attend this in person at 1 Liberty Lane, North Fork, Mass, or by the remote Zoom connection provided. Please note that the in-person meeting will not be suspended or terminated if technical problems interrupt the remote connection. Thank you all and we're glad you're all in attendance. I see we have several online including one of our board members, Chris. Thank you, Chris. Where are you tonight? You're in Virginia or something?

Yeah, I'm in my uh my one-bedroom condo in Virginia. Oh, there you go. Looks like you have nice brick walls. Hopefully not. Hopefully it's not a prison cell. So, you know, thanks a lot. You said one room condo. You know, that's what they call them over in Northfor MCI. You're welcome. Anyway, we have two minutes before we start the 705 hearing. Sure. So, maybe you can accept the October 15th minutes if we review them. I'll make a motion that

I'll make a motion we approve the October 15th uh meeting minutes uh as written. I'll second that motion. You good with that? Yep. And we're going to take a Jose. David Axburg. I Tim Martin Iap. We're good. You you don't have to hire us if you don't want to. But we're we're very appreciative that you're here, Mike. Yeah, that I take care of the old copy. Okay. Right. Just go. All right. We're waiting for 7:05. We've got half a minute, I think. I was going to say 30 seconds according to the clock that's on the wall, right? That must be official time.

Oh, on the screen. 7:05. 7:05 on the screen though. All right.

All right. notice here probably govern but in accordance with mass with chapter 48 of Massachusetts general laws and any and all amendment there to that a public hearing will be held by the zoning board of appeals in room 124 at the North Municipal Building on Wednesday November 19th 2025 for the following application second generation energy LLC 7:05 p.m. a special permit pursuant to Massachusetts general lore chapter 48 section 9 and in North zoning bylaws 310-4.2 and 310-7.6 to install a groundmounted solar photo photoic system as an accessory to a residential building. The property is located five white ponds drive assessor assesses map uh 13 block 41 lot 43 in the R2 zoning district.

Thank you. That was kind of a mouthful. Sorry. Yes, I stumbled over. No problem. All right. Anybody here for five Whites Pond Road? Yes, sir. Doug Wall. I'm with Second Generation Energy. Yep. We need you to we need you to state your name and um use a microphone. Thank you. Uh Doug Wall with Second Generation Energy representing the homeowner. Do we have the homeowners here? I don't. No. Okay. Is there plans or anything? Do you have plans or anything? I I saw them. I saw them on We had them in our Can you bring them up?

Yeah, Paul will bring them up across the screen. Where is Whit's Pond Street? Right behind here. Right behind here. Okay. Union. Okay. Castle. Whites. Okay. Whites Pond is up on the Castle Drive kind of up there. Yeah. Yeah. They connect Castle and Whites Pond come together and then Castle's off. Okay. Where? I know. I know. It's it's it's it's tight up there, isn't it? We don't have printouts. will display them. That's fine. On the Okay, they haven't changed on the ones that are on the website. No, no, no, I don't think so. They'll say if they did, they didn't send them to us.

Just check. So, um Doug, what what page would you like to look at? Uh you want to start there? Yeah, let's start there. Yeah.

Okay. So the closest point is 50 ft from the lot line which is there. If you can the lot line is the edge of the sidewalk and then there's the street and as you see I believe there actually three trees that are here uh along the sidewalk. Um not taking them down. We like trees too. Uh and then the back of the array is pretty much predominantly uh is is in the woodlands. It um the lot is basically built on fill. So it's it's the back of a just behind the solar array is a is a little bit of a drop maybe 8 or 10 ft. And then there's just all woods behind. Um here's there's a little garden area in front of the house. Um But I think it's fairly sheltered from from the street.

We have an aerial view. I was going to say I'll show you from my from my perspective right here. It looks like the the proposed field is going to be in front of the house. So this the the street is directly this way. It's just Yeah. to the front and side of the house. Can I I'll show you. Can I ask you a second question? I'd like to ask a second question. Um, why not the roof? Just curiosity. I always ask the homeowner. Um, I guess the roof is the roof is preferable. Of course, it is. Well, this is north. This is northwest.

This is southeast. Heavily by trees. So, it's not going to get much sun anyway. But on both, it's the same as the array. And but it's not going to produce like the array. For an array that's facing due south, I can get 30% more power out of it. Yeah, I know. I don't like the front yard. You mentioned the um you mentioned the array is about is 50 ft from the sidewalk. Yes. That back. Do you know if it's from the you said it's from the from the paved area of the sidewalk, whatever. Is it from the right of way? Do you know where the right of way ends? Sometimes sidewalks out within the right of way and they're outside. There's a uh there's a marker. So it's 50 feet from the right of way. Yeah.

There's a stone bound. Yeah, there's a stone bound. Yeah, probably on the corner. It's a newer subdivision, so it would be at the corner. There'd be a bound. Can you uh Can I see that up there? Can you Yeah. No, cuz I'm doing it on Zoom. I'm showing the aerial image. Oh, you want me to show the aerial? I mean, that's that's a heavily wooded lot. I can't put it up there. Yes. What is it? I would I would venture to say the roof's probably your best bet. Hi.

Yeah. Can you see that? No, probably not. Yeah. Um that's the who has his own book. Oh yeah looking you looking it up there. The only thing is I'm looking at this right. Yeah. So a few questions came up at least looking at the plans and if I might share. Yeah. This is it.

Um, so one the plans actually say that it's a roof mounted system, but then this is this is showing as ground mount. Is that just a I don't know. Yeah, I don't I'm not sure why it says roof mount. Mhm. Okay. Um, I guess the other question that did come up was it did say why not roof mount versus ground mounted? Like what? Why? Right. I guess from a electrical production standpoint, why not? Um because the roof mount is ground is by right. This is by special permit on the ground. Yeah, that's a question. And it's an accessory use, right? Accessory. Yeah. And then

um the board of health did want to know in terms of where the septic system is located, what's not shown on those plans and make sure it doesn't impact that. So I don't think on that. Yeah. If you can go back to the other di previous diagram. Mhm. Second page. I'm going to check my notes cuz I have it. Okay. Yeah. Our ventures say it's in the front yard there because that's where there's no Yes. Does it say anything? I'm trying to get a clarification. Septic is 36x 50. What's the clarification? Um, I need this area right in here.

310 7.6 that's going to be a apply correctly to the solar. That's a special permit criteria. All right. And 3104.2. That's the use table. Well, how big is how big is the tank? Yeah. Probably 6 by 12. Okay. Well, I've got a 36 x 50 septic. That must be the leech field. Yeah. You might you might see it on the post to the house. um from the plants. I pulled it up on table. You might see it. Okay. You might see the pipe out there on this. Oh, yeah. So, so it's that's a used table. Okay. Right here. Yeah. Right there. Ground mounted.

So, it's R2 district. It's all zoning everything. They have to do a special. It's across the board. Yeah. Deox. Yep. No, it's a use. It's a use. It's not accessory use. is considered a ground mounted but that would be a ground mounted and special perman roof is not right.

Right. What are you finding there, Mike? Septic's in the front. Septic is in the front. Yeah. Yeah. In front of the house. Yep. There's a garden like right in front of the house.

The garden's probably on top. Yeah. What does uh We're trying to look at the use. So, groundmounted solar arrays are all special permits, of course. Okay. Right. Without a special without a special permit. Um, roof mounted is a done deal. Right. Yep. Right. Yes. But, but can a ground mount can accessory structure be in the front yard of that zone? Period. That's an accessory structure. Right. That is so can accessory structure be in the front yard right of a dwelling and that's a and I that's what we're looking for. Yes. Rich can help with this.

I was 50 ft away from the front lot line. The dwelling the dwelling unit needs to be 50 ft away. But there's a there's an accessory building and or fence and or swimming pool or anything of that sort always usually references itself to the front plane of the home. So you need to be behind that. Um right. So that's you can't put a shed. You can't put a shed even if the house is 60 ft back. You can't put the shed 10 ft in front of the house. Right. It's got to be 50. It's got to be it's got to be 50 ft. Yes. because that's a front lot line, but it also needs to be behind the plane of the front of the house.

Yeah, I didn't I didn't read that anywhere, so I'd have to clarify that. We're going to clarify that for you right now. I think that is true. It is true. Is that the the setback is that 50 ft across the But if the house is set back further than the 50, isn't it a it goes by the front plane of the house for accessory buildings or an accessory? I don't think so. I think the front yard required front yard. That was a nuance to it cuz we have all those other houses with that situation. Yeah, we had some garages in Yeah, we did have some garages in but I think it's just a 50ft straight line. It's just a 50ft. Okay, this is 50T.

I'm still back in the dark ages, you know, 6 months ago. So, but is it an accessory structure? It is considered an accessory structure. Yeah. Well, they call it principle or accessory. I don't know it really matters. It's a use by special permit. So So can I see I think you see it. What's the height of the table though? What's that? What's the height? Which page of the news table is for him? Yeah. Height at the back. Which page of this for him? It's not It's a It's an addendum. It's an addendum. It's at the very beginning. If you want the accessory use table, it's at the very back, Mike.

Yeah. are the only details in the used table. So, the height is just over 10 ft in the back. Yep.

I'll be honest with you, we're not fans of ground mounted solar. Not in the front yard. Not in the front yard especially. So, we're trying to get to the bottom of that um and figure that one out. is while we're waiting for Mike to look up what he's looking up, um, anybody have any questions or anything? Yes, sir. Please announce. Yeah, please announce your name and use the microphone. Yeah, Mike, please.

Thank you very much. Uh, good evening all. Uh, my name is Patrick Day. I live at 10 Castle. Uh, I know we just covered it, but the quarter of Castle and Whites Bond Drive. So about three or four houses away from the project site. Appreciate the opportunity to speak with you all tonight. Uh thank you to the board members for your time uh and efforts serving on behalf of the residents of Norfor. I'd like to express my opposition to the application for a special permit to install groundmounted solar panel array at five Whites Pond Drive. I I am concerned about the significant impact this installation could have on our community and the neighborhood. Allowing and approving this project sets a precedent that could open the door to more groundmounted solar installations in residential areas and I think a member of the board already recognized it particularly in a front yard of a residential property. To my prior point on precedence, the land for this proposed project has already been cleared. Multiple large pine trees have already been removed and materials for the solar panels array delivered to the site. In review of our zoning bylaws, it is my understanding that is not standard practice for this work to have already been completed without zoning board approvals. This installation could significantly alter our neighborhood's residential feel. In review of the plans, I believe the installation will detract from the aesthetic appeal that contributes to our neighborhood's charm and character. Per the plans, there is no fencing or additional landscaping to be installed to help mitigate the aesthetic impact. There is also a legitimate concern that such a development could adversely affect property values. The presence of a very large groundmounted solar array in a front yard might deter potential home buyers who pri prioritize, excuse me, the visual and acoustic environment of their prospective home. This could lead to decline in demand and consequently property values in our neighborhood. While I support the use of sustainable energy, fellow neighbors and I ask the board to visit the site to truly

understand the scope as well as the impact of this project. Also, that the board is thoughtful and thorough conversations before any approvals are granted. Thank you. Thank you. Uh David, this is Chris Maf. I've uh we had a groundmounted uh solar panel system on Secon Street, right? Yes, sir. I couldn't pull up the file. Can Can someone pull up that plot plan cuz that is ground mounted and I know you can see it from the road. It is that that's um I want to think it's like 32 32 or something like that. See conunk street. Yeah, that's it. That might give us an example anyway of not a good example. Not a good one, I don't think.

No, maybe not a good one, but there's another one. Park Street. There is another one on Park Street. Yes. And and the and the reason for that is they had a hip roof and there was no place to get the solar on the roof when you have a hip. Right. Correct. Right. I mean, we he's the electrical inspector. Um he did a lot of investigating. I know about what it makes for power and Yeah. Um you have panels too, Mike. Right. On the roof. I have 76. Yep. Yeah. I I'm firm believer of the roof, but um can I ask a second question? Yeah.

Did you want to address that gentleman's concern? Was there any work other than clearing because that could be done anyway? But was was there an installation done already or There's no installation. There are parts on site, but there are no installations been done yet. The homeowner did have a tree company come out and take some limbs down that I don't know if he took trees down. I know he did take some do that. are allowed to do that. They can do that. They Yep. Yep. They can clear cut the lot. They have a house there. Yeah. And a new house. Current location of the ground mount. I think he had a some kind of a garden area or something that he decided to and he was going to put some some plants in front of the solar. Do you guys mind if I ask one more question?

Go ahead. Just stay. Let me address because you said you wanted to put a fence around it. Is a fence prettier than a solar array? Absolutely. Would you would I paint it black? Guys, guys, guys, please if you have questions, please come through us just so that we can so that we can kind of monitor what's going You can always talk outside, but if you want to have others to listen to, you might get them on the record.

Yeah. And sorry, my question on the aesthetics was just the aesthetic impact, right? That was just I didn't see anything on the plans as far as uh anything to remedy that. One more point um I forgot to to make is just how this relates to uh I'm not sure if there's wetlands that are right behind this. Um there is wetlands I believe right on to the left of this property how I'm looking at it. Um so again not sure if that impacts setbacks or anything like that. Can you put GIS on that? Yeah. It's a good size lot. Yeah. Yeah, it is.

Wow. Other places to put it. Yeah, there is. Yeah. Yeah. What? Why though? Outside of trees. Oh. Oh, that's why. It's where? Yeah. Sir. Hi. Yes. Yeah. Uh, my name is Jim Souza. I live at 3 Whitespawn Drive which is directly next door. Okay. Um I'm wondering how far is that from my property line? Has that been looked at? I'm just curious. You're on the left side. Yeah,

I think it said 40 ft. Believe it's 40T from that point to the line when I looked at the plot plan. Okay. And I guess my my question is is is why is the roof not feasible? Um, there are no trees in the front yard and there's plenty of sunlight coming down on the front side of those. Doug said that it's a homeowner's preference. It was a homeowner's preference and it's not going to produce like a ground mount will. Just it's facing northeast. It's just not going to get the power that he's going to want and it's going to cost him a lot more to put additional panels on the roof. That's my question. How many panels are there now?

I think we got 35. 35. So, were you going to go to 40 or 42 on the roof or 35? I probably have to go to like 50. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Look at the direction, you know, put them facing the trees. How much how much energy do you think you get out of that? I Yeah, I don't know about So, the front would not be sufficient by itself is what you're saying. Do the front of the I'm sorry to hear your question. the the front would not be sufficient by itself in terms of No, it's because that front house is front of the house is facing uh northwest. So northwest that's all that's all sun the second half of the day.

This correct? Okay. So, so if I have a 100 watt panel direct it's facing due west or east, I'm going to get 100 watts out of that panel. Same thing. If I have a 100 watt panel facing due south, I'm going to get 130 watts out of that panel. facing northwest, I might get 80 watts out of that panel. So, do you understand that? But that's only a peak and and and and we all know cuz I'm a big solar guy. So, I see it. You know, 10 minutes makes a difference on panel of wattage. So, show show me how that's tilting. Show me the tilt. What's the high side of that on the back? It's 10 ft on the back.

On the back, that's it. So that's tilted towards me. That's solar array right there. Mhm. It's tilted this way. Yes, it's tilted. Yep. Yeah. That's the high end. Mhm. Low end. Yeah. Mhm.

All right. If it's going to be so So what tell me if I'm help me out here. I'm not I'm nowhere near an expert in this area at all. Is it feasible to do roof mounted, put more panels up and accomplish the same task? Are you able to do that? Is it Is it possible? Yeah. Is it possible? Yeah. Well, not anything's possible. I mean, is it You only have so much roof, right? But that Okay, that that roof could accommodate enough panels to to get the same output from that proposal. I can't say without putting it on the model. I what's what's your best guess? Pretty close. It's a big roof. Let me ask you some question. Can I ask you a question slightly different?

I would have thought you would have done that when they work with That's all I just you know when you I would have thought they would have looked at both. They No, he didn't. He wanted a ground. So I didn't address the house at all. Thank you. Let me ask you a question slightly different way. Yeah. Panels on the roof versus that ground mounted soil raised there. How much any production is going to be there? Is there going to be a production of energy back to the grid more than they actually need to operate and maintain their home? So essentially creating a power production search charge as opposed to just offsetting their cost for the home.

35 panels. Um so you want to say is he going to overproduce enough to produce more than Yeah. Can you prod Yeah. Are you over producing with those ground mounted versus the roof? he's heating um with electric heat pumps. So, he's got a high energy bill. That's what he's trying to eliminate. So, if he had on the roof, he couldn't do the same thing. It could have to be a bigger field because of the location, right? But I think your I think your question is will the will the will the ground mount in in theory produce more than what will they be able to sell back to the grid? So, certain times of the year. So the idea was that it would cover almost 100% of his usage, right? He's not like making money on.

So in the summer it's going to overproduce and then he's going to bank it and in the winter it's going to underproduce and the bank is going to go to uh cuz he's going to do he he can't make a grid bigger than needed because he can't get the tax incentives. Right. I mean you can't you can't tell sell 45 panels if 38 does it. I could, but then he's going to be sitting on a credit that he has nothing to do. He can't get rid of, right? Yeah. Right. No batteries involved here. No, there's no batteries involved. Okay.

Yeah. So, so it's just it's a case of my opinion. Let's have him come back with both proposals, the roof and the and the ground until about to come back in 4 weeks. Well, his proposal now we can he can vote on this. That's his proposal. They can do they can always come back if they want. They can continue if they want. But I think I I just want to confirm you said that the height of it is going to be 10 feet. 10 feet 121 in off grade. Just a quick follow-up question. Um, did the board intend to vote on this proposal tonight? I don't think we can. I don't I think we're going to have to go. I I want to go see a site.

Thank you. Just personally. So, yeah. Thank you. That's kind of why I was asking where it was. Well, I think we'll continue the hearing till next get out there and then the two cents in your name.

I'm Kathy Cassali. I'm from Five Crossbow Road. I'm directly across from that property and I've lived there for 32 years and I'm going to wake up in the morning and face that and I am extremely distressed about it. I don't understand if there are other options. My next door neighbor has solar on their roof, same size house and they don't even have as much sun exposure and they're doing fine with it. Why we have to go to something that is such an eyesore. Our neighborhood is a really beautiful neighborhood. People walk people come from other neighborhoods to walk in our neighborhood. And in the front yard, we're going to have this giant industriallook mess. And I'm going to have to look at it every day. I am going to urge you to please rethink doing this so that the people that have been in this community for a very long time don't have to wake up in the morning and have somebody who moved in two and a half years ago destroy what we look at.

Thank you.

Can I can I say something? I'm her husband, uh, Jack Casali, Five Crossbow. Um, just to take it a step further, a bigger concern of mine is if if you allow this to happen, what's to stop, you know, one of our other neighbors from basically doing the same? I mean, my house faces north, so I'm really not a good candidate. Um, you know, to put them on the roof, but my front yard's really big, so I could have them facing my house, you know, over, you know, facing over the house cuz the sun's behind and probably still be 50 ft away from But obviously I don't want to look at that. But what if I did want to do that? If you allow this, what's to stop the next person and the next person, next person?

Um, that that's all I wanted to say. Taking away the charm of this neighborhood. I mean, honestly, I think you're taking away the charm from the it's the whole town. It's not just your neighborhood. I I completely agree with that. Just just one more point, and hopefully I conveyed that uh thoroughly enough in my my little statement, but the president's to your point, I'm south facing. I share a front yard. It's a large front yard with my neighbor. if this is approved and this seems it's a blanket approval. So now there's precedence that my neighbor hopefully they we'd have a discussion and they would not do that but now they could just put a ground mounted solar array in their front yard right with they have to come see us they still have to be 50 ft off have to be 50 ft true but for a large front yard

special permit and a special permit is not necessarily precedented. Gotcha. I I just I think that's a slippery slope that we start setting.

I and I would agree with you on that. Um and that's why we have much discussion whenever it whenever a groundmounted solar array comes up. Um the it's it's it's a difficult scenario um because they meet all the criteria that they're supposed to meet at this point outside of we have to take into effect what is already there and what is in the neighborhood and what is in keeping. Um that's one of our criteria that we have to look at. Um, is there another option? I believe the roof is an option. Uh, so they they they realistically have 4 weeks to come back with another one, maybe another plan or another idea, or they can take this off the table and just do the roof. Um, by rights, they're allowed to do it on the roof. So,

understandable. Mhm. Um, so that's kind of the we don't like to give out special permits if we don't have to because special permits mean that they're trying to do something that is not by

in in the bylaws already. Um, so the bylaws have been here that have been tried and true for years. We're trying to keep to them as much as possible, but there are incidences that arise that require this. This is one of them. Um, but is it the only way that they could do it? Not necessarily. And that's one of the things that we'll have to discuss as a board and get out there and see the property and hopefully they come back and remove it from the table and say they're going to do it on the roof, but you never know. I don't I don't think we approved anything in the residential area like this. I don't think we with a butter approve butters with butter dension.

We had no butter issues in the past. So this is something to take seriously. We did one on Cleveland Street. Right. Right. Yeah. We did the one at the paint factory. Right. Butters were here and spoke and the abutters spoke in favor residential by the way. That was actually it was a resial abing residential. So it was actually more setback. Correct. Right. Right. Agreed. All right. Well, Doug, do you have do you have anything else you want to add? I I think what we're going to do is we're going to continue it to the next to the next meeting if that's okay and that will give us a time if we want to take a ride by and take a look at the we won't go on the property obviously but we can take a ride we can take a look look see

so our next meeting I'll let you know well I guess the other thing to think about is your is your client considered they want to do the ground mounting and the panels are fed this way that reveitate that whole front so that way the view the from the street view you don't see the panel. Well, they're planning on putting some vegetation in front of the array, but there's nothing shown on the wall. There's nothing on the plants. Yeah. Yeah. It's not going to That's just the engineers plans. That's just Yeah. But we we we don't know that from what we're seeing and you don't know exactly what they're doing and there's no commitment to that. So, and

and if we if you do come back, so there's a U civil And I would want this to have the measurements and have a stamp on it as well from the street, the sideline, and the back if you come back with a certified civil engineer stamp on it. That makes sense. So to be clear, this meets all the town guidelines, but right at the moment, you're not going to approve it. Um, I'm not going to say that. We're not going to take it to a we're not going to take it to a vote right now. Okay? Because if we took it to a vote, it might not get approved. We just we're we're trying to do you do you a solid by going out visiting the site.

That's not right at all. I mean, when you say it meets all town by I'm not sure what you know is subject to a special permit, right? I mean, it meets town requirements as far as the town requirements. It means the 50oot setback if that's what you're asking. Yes. But there's other requirements of a special permit. Correct. Right. We have to check. Is anybody online peanut butter? I will. Yeah. Before we go, from from a technical standpoint, it meets the 50oot setback. So, so from what you show from what you're telling us, so one one of the points made was if it was something else, which I'm not married to ground mounts. No, I hear if it was a pergola and it was on the roof of a pergola, would that be I wouldn't speculate repulsive to the community?

I'm not going to speculate on that. hypothetical come back with come back with some options possibly. Um other than uh that and there might be wiggle room. Okay. I mean I think he heard from Alex heard from the board.

I think the big concern is it's it's in the front yard. I don't know this particular neighborhood. Seeing seeing the what I saw on the screen here looks like a beautiful residential neighborhood. I'm sure it is. I'm sure those people live there for those same reasons. They like they like that nice look and and that certainly would impose on that from what from what I'm seeing tonight. But I'll take a ride out there and look, you know, and um if you want to amend your plan, we'll we'll look at anything and your buddies are always more than welcome to come back. We we certainly enjoy their feedback and their input. They you folks live there, you know, so we we we look for that feedback. Understood. Um, yeah,

just a this delay is not going to it will cost the homeowner $10,000 if it decides to go with this project if it was approved. So, coming back in a month is not going to help him a bit. I'll just say that right now. That's why I'm looking for an alternative. If you're not going to approve it tonight, I know he's not going to he's going to have to find a quick solution like tomorrow um that I can prove with the with the building inspection department and um yeah, move forward with it. I can't see an approval tonight. So, right, understood. So, thank you. All right. Thank you. Anybody any anybody else online that had any questions or anything they wanted to add to this

or was the uh the board member was online comment was Chris Chris and Josephine. Oh, Josephine had a comment. Someone had a comment. I heard the uh I heard an audio. Josephine, did you have anything? Or Courtney, did you have anything you wanted to add? I'm in a butter, so I'm going to go ahead and recuse myself. Okay. Okay. And she can speak in the middle. She can speak as an abutter. You can still speak as an abutter.

I know, but I um I share a rear lot line. I don't see this. And so I'm going to respectfully go. Okay, we understand. I get it. Yep. No problem. Josephine's muted. Josephine's muted and her audio is not working. Yeah. Which is all good. Yeah. This is Chris Maf. I I I'm amazed that the U project was going ahead with buying materials prior to getting approval. Mhm.

So anyway, I thank you. I think we'll make a motion to continue. Make a motion to continue this something. What's the date of the next meeting? I don't have it there. December 17th. December 17th. So motion to continue the hearing. 16th, right? 17th. Let me double check. This says December 16th. That's next year though. That's next year. 17th. 17th. Okay. You guys are trying to get it done this year. Motion the uh continue the hearing for five white pond drive to the 17th of December at 7:05 p.m. I'm going to second that motion. All in favor? Let's take a roll call vote. Joe Smith I David Axburg I

Tim Martin I have I. You want to say I bro I. Very good. All right. Thank you. Thank you everyone. Thank you all for coming. We appreciate it. There will be another public hearing. There will be another notice for public hearing. Well, notice it'll be just next month, December 17th. We're planning on being here. It's already on that. It's on the agenda. There won't be there will not be a new notice. You can you could maybe call the office a day day before if you wanted to and find out if it's been removed. But that's the only thing that would happen. Otherwise, it's on the agenda. Otherwise, it's on the agenda. We're not going to quarant. We're not removing it. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Thank you for coming out. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay.

All right. Notice here given in accordance with chap with chapter 48 Massachusetts general laws and any it's there too that a public hearing will be held by zoning boards on Wednesday, November 19th, 2025 at 7:10 p.m. or beyond that now at room 124 at the Norolk town hall Liberty Lane North Mass. the applicant. The SBA GC Towers LLC and DT request a special permit to allow for 180 foot above ground monle style pole tower with a 4ft lighting rod in top of the tower with ATD wireless communication attendant and associate equipment pursuant to uh sections 310 uh 6 Dr. 3t F 310 7.6 6 C 2 and 3107.6D of the Z Norfolk Z main bylaws. The property is located at 100R Pond Road, Cesus Map 19 block 69, lots 43 and 40 uh 58, excuse me, and the C1 and C1B zoning district, Wireless Communic Wireless Communication Overlay District 4, excuse me. Got it. I got it. Sorry about that.

Right. All right. Who's here? Uh, good evening. Good evening. Yes. Uh, good evening. My name is Ed Perry. It's P A R E. I'm an attorney at Brown Runick. I'm here representing SBA uh and AT&T. Uh, I do have a brief presentation. If I could share my screen. Oh, you can get one there.

There you go.

This is where the radio station was. Mhm. So, Mhm. What's the height of that? The radio two. It says 218. It was in here. There's two existing tower rer. When's the AM tower ring? Right. We all set good to go. Can you see the uh We got it. Yes.

Great. So, as I said, I'm Ed Perry. I'm here representing SBA and AT&T. Uh we are proposing to uh actually replace two existing guy towers uh 217 218 ft tall um with one new style monopole tower. uh to accommodate AT&T's coverage needs. AT&T is not located at the site yet. Uh and hopefully through this process, we'll be able to do so. I do have a few people. I think everybody that's on the screen right now is with me. So, I don't think we need to introduce them. If there are any particular questions on any particular area, uh we can certainly bring them in. Uh so, you're looking at the asbuilt survey. Um the two kind of points where you see the three guy wires coming up are where the existing towers guide towers are located. Uh those lines are the guise which attach and keep the two towers up. One is here near the little red box which I'll explain in a second and the other tower is to the west of uh that location. Uh what SBA is proposing to do is to remove both of these towers, but we would bump out our compound to accommodate the new monopole. AT&T would then install its equipment on the monopole. T-Mobile, which is on this tower, this guy tower here, uh would get off that tower. Obviously, it won't be there. Uh locate on the monopole and Dish Wireless is also on that tower. they would also move. Uh we kept the tower in close proximity so the ground equipment doesn't have to move for T-Mobile and Dish. Uh AT&T will install its ground mounted equipment uh on an existing pad. So it's really a win-win. We we don't bring in any new impervious

surfaces. We're using an existing uh concrete pad. The town loses those two guy towers. Um we get one new monopole in there. AT&T uh has a need for uh its coverage requirements at 175 ft antenna center lines that produces 180 ft monopole. T-Mobile can then attach they'll get a little bit more height uh for their installation. Plus with the limitations of these AM towers uh they can they can upgrade their system and put a full antenna array on the new monopole. Uh the enlarged site plan this is the compound that I talked about. This is the red area that was bumped out. That was in our asbuilt survey. So, T-Mobile is located here. Is my arrow moving?

Yes, I see.

T-Mobile is located here. Dish is located here. This is the existing concrete pad where AT&T would install its walk up cabinet. Um, all of the coax fiber lines would then run over to the monopole. The coax would run the coax of fiber would run up inside the monopole and each of the antenna arrays. So this is the tower elevation AT&T at the top in the second slot dish in the third and then we designed the monopole to accommodate a fourth carrier. There are four carriers currently operating uh in the market. Uh so it'll it'll provide for future collocation opportunities in accordance with uh the bylaw. We propose to use a wooden fence so the AT&T's equipment won't be seen. Uh it'll surround the the new monopole site u where the tower is located. This just existing photographs of the two towers. Here is where addition T-Mobile located. This is the tower to the west. It does not have any carriers on it. The shift in the tower itself is about 25 ft uh from this existing tower west uh to where the monopole will be placed. This is just a closeup uh of uh the T-Mobile installation, the dis dish installation, and then the existing compound at the base where that guide tower is located. As I said, that'll be removed. So, as mentioned in the notice that was read, uh we're in the commercial wireless communication overlay district 4. We need a special permit uh from the zoning board of appeals. It's a 8.4 acre site. Uh there's a solar project going on. Uh and basically what we have is two

non-conforming towers because they are guy towers. We'll replace with a monopole which will be conforming. Uh we meet all the setback requirements. The closest property line is 194 feet. Uh that's from the southern property boundary. Uh AT&T does have a does provide service for firstn net which is a a public safety uh network for our first responders. Uh this will allow AT&T to uh provide firstn net service. I believe the Northfor fire department and Metacomt are both

and the comments right there

are both FirstNet customers uh tower does have to be lit. The existing tower is not lit. Uh we can go up to 200 ft without FAA lighting and the cumulative emissions is 8.06% of the FCC maximum. That includes all of the carriers. Uh what I'm showing now is AT&T's uh network. Uh these are the adjoining sites that AT&T has uh on air currently. Uh they all kind of come together at the uh proposed location, but just to give you a sense of where AT&T's network is. And you'll see when we uh produce our coverage maps, you'll see each of those existing sites are little black stars. And obviously they produce green, you have yellow, mine has orange, but we produce we produce a a a 360 degree pattern generally uh of coverage. So all the little black d all the little black stars at AT&T's existing sites. Uh this blue star in the middle is the proposed location. As you'll see, lots of white, lots of orange, very little green. And so we produced a coverage map to show what the coverage would look like if and when this facility is constructed and operational. You'll see the big green pattern in the orange goes much further out uh from the center of the proposed location.

Our commercial properties in an area take a big dip. They do. They did. Yeah. Probably in the um the the the four kicks areas there too. parents complain about coverage. We have some coverage statistics. Uh and all of these materials were in the packets that we submitted. With that, I'd be happy to answer any questions. Like, as I said, we have folks here from each of our kind of levels of expertise, engineering, radio frequency engineering. We think this is just a great project from a from a visibility standpoint, from a coverage standpoint. Uh we call them drop and swap. In this case, it's dropping swaps. So, we get rid of two. Two for one.

Question. Joe, you have a question. Yeah. Any uh any uh services being removed from the existing towers? No, there's only those two. Uh only T-Mobile and uh and Dish are on them. Uh otherwise, the towers being no need for the for the second tower or either tower or either at this point it they were used for FM AM radio stuff, right? But it's not they had to be AM radio. I mean it was AM I think

and they're not designed for W cellular or wireless facilities. We're putting much more equipment up on the towers these days. And you know a steel monopole or a steel, you know, erectet kind of uh facility just accommodates the the loads that are going up. Can we make it look like a giant spruce tree? Right. Yeah. Cuz they cut every tree down there. So now you can be the one tank tree right up there. That' be great. Put a finger. At least get a palm tree if it's got That's right. Let's go palm. It might look It might look like like toilet brush. Yeah, exactly. It be very It' be a very tall tree. I looked at them.

It's right in the middle of the solar farm. So it is. It is just So who owns who owns that? The solar farm owns that. No, they do not. So, whoever I the property owner is uh the solar company, but we have we actually have an easement. So, we don't have a lease agreement. We have an easement for our all of those for as long as we keep it, I guess. Um, but we have an easement for the area, all of the guys, all of the anchors on both towers. We we have an easement interest. You release those easements once you release the Not necessarily. they're perpetual perpetual easement. Yeah, that's true.

It's better. They don't have any tax liability, but we do expect there will be a condition that both towers will be removed because that's part of our, you know, presentation to the board and part of our special permit. And just a question on on your submitt, thank thank you for the presentation just to clarify for me. Again, I'm I'm really not an expert anywhere close to it in this area at all. Number two, it says um the height of the antenna of the wireless communications facility shall not exceed a height of 110 ft. You you'll exceed that, but you're coming lower than what's existing. That's correct. But but you're still exceeding 110 ft. We are. So are you asking does that require a variance or a special permit?

It doesn't because the existing towers are non-conforming. So but you're changing the location. We are just slightly 25 clarif I'm I'm just trying to understand. I don't want to have a decision and have it be challenged and things. So, are we okay with that as as a as a special permit and not a variance? So, it's interesting. So, so the like and it says the the intended shall not exceed a height greater than the highest point of the existing tower.

Well, it's not it'll be a new tower, but so really I just want I just want to get clarification on how this decision should be on that section. go to actually don't think it's a variance. I think it's discretionary within because the plan board also reviews this as well. I'm just putting it out so we you know these things get reviewed and challenged and so forth that we understand that that would be a new poll. It's not in the same poll. It's lower than what's existing, but it's higher than what Right. But but it's higher than what the bylaw allows as a matter of right.

Yes. I I think in previous decisions that you've rendered and this is where I get the uh T-Mobile and I'm I'm not sure if Dish's elevation are actually above and those relate to utility stansions. Now, there's no utility stansion here. So there was some discretion with the special permit when you granted it for T-Mobile to actually be above the height of 110 ft. And your your decision, which I did file with you, recognizes that. So they said, "Well, it's sort of like a utility stansion because it's a it's a tall structure, but it's not a utility stansion." So AT&T as part of our application has shown that we need the additional height. So I think there's plenty to rely on there, and I think the board has

I don't understand from I understand from a practical standpoint. I just want to make sure that whatever we decided is is pretty solid. That's all. So you I could I could definitely I see where I see kind of like the splitting of the hair of this, but I think this really is, you know, it's using this there's a lot of it that I think we could really just call it a replacement. It's not exacerbating the nonconformity. It's becoming less. That's the purpose. That's that's the discussion I wanted to have publicly so it's on the record. So thank you. Yeah, it's less it's less conforming. Correct. So, in terms of becoming more conforming over time is the whole purpose of

so the only thing that I would want to change is the verbiage. Um I don't want a wooden fence. I want a composite fence. Wooden fence will be rotted out in 5 years. I want a composite fence that lasts 20 years cuz this structure is going to be there well over. So, uh composite fence Oh, but this is a matter of taste. I, you know, I would never allow composite in my It's a matter of of life of of life. What if you What if the What if the decision indicated there always has to be a a fence?

Well, it has to be a fence, but it they're going to do wood for for aesthetics, right? We don't want a white vinyl fence cuz we don't want eyes. Your composite fence stains out like a cedar. Hey, Mike, this is in the middle of that photo. You can't see it anyway. Yeah, there's nothing up there. You can station. You can see it from from Denim Street. Okay. You can literally see it from Dunkin Donuts. Look. And you can see I was there today. You can see both antennas and all the structures. There's not a a a tree left. There is a desert up there. So, you're going to see

it up there. But I I don't think we really need to split hairs over their fencing material. If I could Yeah, that was going up there. I mean, you got this big tower and you We're actually looking to match what was there. I can Okay. But I understand your point. Longevity. Yeah. They're going to be But in reality, they need to be maintaining whatever is there. So the decision is always So if the fence rots, they got to put a new fence up. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, we have no issue with I mean, we don't have a great issue with the type of fence, but we can we have no issue with maintaining the fence. And again, the idea was at some point it was decided use a wooden fence and we're just going to expand that. Yeah. For the monopol.

Okay. It's not reflective. They're using the same spot. They're using the exact spot. They're basically they're basically the same spot the nor right. Yeah. Yeah. Just going to add a pad. It's about 20 25 ft. So clearly less non-coming. It definitely looks like Are there going to be panels all around that? Yep. There are, right? Uh I don't know yet. Yeah, I think so because the the approval of that we had to approve. I believe the panels are all around. They're coming back to change that too, right? I haven't seen that. So right now No, there are panels around it. Yes, there are panels. Yeah, there will be panels around.

Yeah, there's panels in the tower right now. I'm talking. Yeah. That's right. Don't we have a very limited horse in this race anyway from like a federal perspective? No, we really have very little. You have a pony. All right, let's get to the next one. We like to be respectful of the local. So we Well, I know you do it out of respect, but I know you know,

but I mean, honestly, I think we're we're making a site less nonconforming by allowing the mono pole. I I am biased because I do have AT&T and I saw that coverage map in my house is now going to be included, but um so you better this is this is better service. It makes sense to do this. No, I All right. Yeah, we need one on the other end of town. I'm sorry. Yeah, I I saw that. I They're going to They're going to cover the commuter rail, too. Now, this is exciting. This is now when you're trying to get your ticket when the sister is coming by. You can get it. This is good news. Over the farm, I'm sure. Hey,

good one. Good. All right. I think we've actually talked. No butters are here, right? Are there any butters? A quick peel. No, no one in the audience. Okay. Anybody else have any questions? I see you out here. You have any questions? I'm the RF engineer. You got no questions. We got no questions. I have answers. We have no questions for you. No question. All right. We should close the hearing. I think we should close the hearing. Yeah. All right. I make motion close the hearing for the application for uh for the wireless tower at um 100R Pond Street. Second that. All in favor say I. Roll call vote.

I Joe Spastiano. Tim Art I. David Axburg. I Broen I. Chris M. Chris Map I. Thank you. I think we're prepared to deliberate this in order. Yeah, we could deliberate that today. Mhm. Well, thank you all for coming. Any chance you'll deliberate this evening? We will 100%. You will. We'll deliberate around. All right. Thank you very much. We appreciate the attention. You're welcome. No, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You're welcome. All right. Let's see what else is on my agenda here. We have a deliberation or is it basically I think we already notice a decision, right?

A decision. It's just noticeable votision. We just need to vote the decision notice. This is the one. Yeah. You gave me this is the appeal. You have to print the top for um It's the same river. It's not me. What? No. Uh yeah. No, it wasn't you. It was uh though Josephine is not here but um we we literally accept it by signing it anyway. Right. So Josephine can come in and sign it. Yeah. Yeah. Right. We can we can we have to accept the decision written. Yeah. Right. Yep.

So can we do that without Josephine? How about uh Mike or Courtney? just accept it as written and then Jose I could I wasn't here. Yeah, you weren't here. I know Courtney, you weren't there either last spring, right? I wasn't either. I was in Connecticut. Um Josephine dropped off. She wasn't feeling well. Yeah, she dropped off. Actually, there's not a We're not up a Hold on. I don't believe we're on a time crunch. So, we could just vote at the December meeting. Okay. because uh this has been continued so many times. Yeah. And they also did grant did he submit a writing on that to allow them?

I don't think he did, but I'm not sure we asked for it. What's that? I don't know if we asked for for a waiver from him or a continuence on the decision. There's been We did. Yeah. I was about 5 years old when this started. So, yeah. I wasn't born yet then. Let me Thank you. I feel like I was 5 years old. No. Mhm. That's a pipe cleaner. Oh, no. Yeah. Those type of towers if the Oh, they they look awful. Even the ones up on the ones up in the white mountain. You know what? If it was all trees there still, then we would have that discussion because But there's no trees.

He's buried in trees. It looks like a a toilet bowl cleaner. Sorry. Exactly. Yeah. when they stand out by themselves now. Well, even the ones up in the White Mountains that look like that, you can still see them and they stand right out. Just the trees. Just so you can see. I just want to show you. Yeah, I think I think they extensions. So, you're not you're not up against the time. We have extensions for when? I can't see that far. All right. So, it's indefinite. So, we have So, no more needed tonight, right? So, we'll just we'll put it on we'll just put it on December being assigned next. Yeah. All right. Also, um, we already accepted minutes for October. We did. Yep. Yep. And we have some town planner updates from the fall meeting.

From the fall. Yeah. You want to deliberate? Yeah, let's We could deliberate and let that go. Yeah, let's uh We're into deliberations. Yeah, we are. Cuz we're just talking. Anybody have anything they want to add or subtract from whatever was discussed or do we want to just vote? You want to make a motion to vote on this? Yeah. I'm trying. Do you need a vote on the decision as written as well? Yeah, as written. All right. Although I think I'm going to have to swap out members cuz Joseph was on here, right? So was coordinator Mike who wants Does the decision require a fence? Is that what just what's in there? Yeah, there's a fence in there. Yeah, he brought it off.

Okay. Yep. Number two. Y condition two. Yep. A removal bond. Bond condition for the new for the new mouth pole. Good. Good question. What a removal bond. So they bond. They abandon it and leave it for us so that we can pull a bond to get rid of the new pole. We probably didn't ask for that. No. So you want make it a condition? Yeah. Let's uh Well, they're they're getting rid of the other two, but but this new one. Yeah, but they're building a new one. Right. Right. So, we need a bond just for the new one, right? Because they're removing the other two. That's part of the

old the old ones that are the ship has sailed there. But whenever you put up a new pole, we want a bond to get rid of it in case they abandon their junk. It's not junk. But not yet. Not yet. But it will be someday. Probably not that soon because they swap panels every two years. All right. Then we we need to we'll have to add that in as a condition. It's not in the condition. And who's going to make that determination what the dollar amount cost? Yeah. Isn't this is it's pretty standard. Otherwise, okay, but it needs to decision now. There's got to be a

So, how much what would what a normal bond? How much is this project? I typically see them in zoning bylaws. 50,000. How much is that pole worth?

$100,000. Yeah. You got to look at them. You got the structures, you got the concrete ground, especially when it could be years from now. Mhm. But it's a removal. Mhm. Right. Yeah. So, if it cost 100,000 to put up, correct? No, no, no. You're talking about removing the remove it. Get rid of the the can. They decommission it and they're done with it. It doesn't stay there forever. Doesn't cost as much. Doesn't cost as much to take it down as it does to go out that far. To remove the concrete and everything if you're taking it out. Depends when you do it. You do it now. You do it 50 years from now. Cellular phones are no longer used. How do you know the cost 50 years? Thing's got to go away. I know.

That's what I'm saying. How do you know the cost now? So if you say 50 today, that's We we don't need to decide on the cost, Mike. We just ask for a removal bond of, you know, a sufficient shy. We let the bond business deal with it. Well said. Well said. Do they do that? You need it for the decision. The only our responsibility here is just to make sure we got a way to get rid of it. You want to put a minimum on that thing. Come on, guys. You want to put a minimum amount on that? Yeah, put a minimum. Well, the just an idea or you just want to let the bond company do it.

Whatever they deem a sufficient shity for removal I think is you know 50 50,000 is pretty standard but like honestly it all depends on who you hire to take one of these down. Not cause that. Could be 20 years from now. Could be 70. Could be 100. Could be 200 years from now. It's going to I'll still be sitting here. It may never come down like the two solar panels. Yeah. We don't have any. Yeah. But they agree to take that's part of the condition. Let me just tell them that that's part of the condition is taking those down. Yes, it is. Yeah. Yeah. But could we just

condition condition a bond for removal of the new monopole when life is terminated or something. The other suggestion I would have is that you know you can have a minimum of say 50,000 and subject to you know the reasonable interpretation or the reasonable cost you know pursue uh by the building commissioner. I are you a building commissioner building inspector? Yeah. I see I see those that that way if if the building official becomes unreasonable, we can come back to the board. $50,000 $50,000 period. Period. That's fine. Escalating 10% every year. Be renewed every year. So

reviewed each year. Yeah. And renewed and and renewed each year and reviewed for bond whether the bond needs to be increased or whatever. 10 years from now it might need to be 70 grand, right? But let's put it in at 50 for now and then uh re re-evaluate it each year at resigning. Thank you, Courtney. Good catch. Good catch. So, we'll add it and then uh so it sounds like Courtney wants to vote on it. Yeah, we want good reception in the house. She can't. She can't vote. She can't vote. She has AT&T. I I'll put Mike's name then. We all have a conflict, don't we?

The The only one of us The only one of us that can vote The only one of us that can vote is probably you. You have Verizon because there's no Verizon on the poll. I have T-Mobile. I can't do it. All right. So, you're going to win against anyway. We're all I need a fifth. I mean, technically, I don't need a fifth network. So, but I'll put you on. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Yeah, I have no issue with this. You want to make a motion, Joe? Very simple. Make a motion. They're making a motion that we approve the special permit for the uh wireless communication tower at 100 R Pond Street for AT&T and uh SBA with the decision

as written with an a decision with an amendment to add a bond requirement or do you have to separately vote the decision when written? No, you'll vote as amended as revised. So we're going to say it as amended. With bond. As amended with bond. Yeah. As amended for the additional commitment for the bond and the correct uh voting numbers. Okay. I'll second. All in favor say I. Let's take a roll call vote please. I Joe Fastiano. I. David Axburg. Tim Martin. I Mike Broen I. Chris Maf I. Chris make. Very good Chris. Thank you. Gotcha. You will lose. Courtney's being quiet because she didn't need to vote. Oh, you don't need me.

No, we don't. Broken commit. That's right. You have too much skin in the game. That's right. That's right. My voting record. Thank you. Thank you all. Thank you. Appreciate it. Have a nice holiday. Have a great holiday. We're looking forward to better reception and lower prices, right? Well, lower prices. That was part of the decision. No. Is that what I thought I saw that now? You see T-Mobile's going down under AT&T, so you're going to get worse. Oh yeah, that's true. Although they're keeping them, but T-Mobile T-Mobile's not going on a lower They're getting They're actually going higher on the new pole than they are on the guy. Oh yeah, that's true. So maybe I will have more antennas.

They'll have more antennas. There you go. Good job. Just point one right directly to my house. Thank you very much. Thank you. As a recap, tell me real quick, uh, both zoning articles passed, so we might see some folks come in for a RV or module home if they're doing some major renovations. We'll see. Hey, onto the I think that was a good move. And I and town meeting sounded they were all very positive about them. So, good. And then the inclusionary bylaw got revised down to 10%. Yep. Okay,

that was it. And I know the the demolition delay did get approved at 12 versus the six months, but it did on historical homes that are 50 years. If your home is 50 years or older, no, 75. It isif Well, 75. 75. Yeah. 75. Yeah. Sorry. Nor folks is 75. Yeah. 50 is for inclusion on the register. Correct. 75 years or older. You have to they they have the right to slow you down for 6 months day on development

and and or 12 months if they they they want to try and preserve your home if it's 75 or greater. Now, not all 75 year old homes would meet the criteria and they don't know they don't all come forward, but they have the right to do it on any 75y old home. So, if all of a sudden I said I I want to tear my home down, which is probably one of the oldest homes in North is that a plan of renovation, too? Well, it depends upon Hump. No, no, no, no, no. It's it's it's a demo. It's a demo. Yeah, it's only demo. So you could leave two studs more.

35 is not that old. No months. 30 days, do they? The whole purpose of day is to get folks to come in and talk. So they have 45 days inventory, right? They have 45 days to act once it's filed. The big thing with this is if somebody they probably need to move on the demo permit so they know. You know what I mean? Not wait around like Right. Right. Right. If you're going to do a demo, get your demo permit in, right? So, goes before the historic commission. Correct. So, you get an answer or not. Yeah. I was always,

to be honest with you, after I saw the interior of the wlands after the flooding and the that was water, destroyed. I have no idea why they never tore that place down. They should have torn it down. I I hate to say that because it's a nice old home, but it's not a nice old home. Yeah. I mean, it's it's a mess. It's Yeah, that is historical. The barn the barn is what's on the historical. It's not the house. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And the barn is in worse shape than the house. Oh, god. It's all caved in. Yeah. One whole side's almost gone. Which what is this? Where lands on Boardman Street? Yeah. On on the bad corner. Bad corner of Boardman Street there.

Oh, yeah. So, they resided the whole front. They put all the windows in it. I mean, they they definitely had guns blazing for a while, but that doesn't seem to be anything going on. Someone lives in the cottage. Somebody does live That's that's the milk parlor. Yes. Yep. The cottage. Yeah. But it was originally the milk parlor. Yeah. I remember when I remember when they had cows. Don't tell anybody I knew that. I remember. Yeah. It And it was a two family in the uh main house. It was a friend of mine lived in there. Yep. All right. What else? That was a recap. What else? That's it. I think that's it. Shut it down. That's a pretty exciting time either.

Well, they we they somebody brought before them to to there was a little bit of a hubbub at the end because they were trying to they wanted to make a motion to have five people on the select board instead of three. That's right. But you can't procedurally it was not correct to do it. Was it discussion about it substantively? So they did they did take a vote. Yeah, it was split. It was um like 4138 in favor of it was very close. So the amount of people at that point so in favor of it. Yeah. But it wasn't brought forward. Correct. You can't right.

Yeah. The language it was just a like a exploratory vote. In other words, he thought he had it correct, but it wasn't correct. the langu the the petetition language wasn't correct to be able to take action on it but so kind of alternative they did a poll and you know and to be I think there's I think it has to be presented to somewhere other than the town prior to coming to town meeting right I think it does I think it has to go to the AG prior to prior to I don't I wouldn't think so

you don't think so no to change selectman to a mayor or something like that. Yeah, but not represent. Yeah, it could be an article. It just has to be properly worded. No, no, I think there something more. I think I think there's another step to it. Yeah, there's another step to it. I'm pretty sure that's No, we don't have a chart. No, we don't have a charter. There is another step, but tell me is a step in the So, it'll likely come back. It will. I I can't imagine that it won't come back. It should. Yeah. Yeah. I I I would envision five would be good. The question was much better kind of discussion was wait till May to bring it back or

get a petition and submit it and then they have to call special. That was kind of the just bring it in May. But no, right this time. Yeah. Okay. Y So I think that's an easy vote if I mean it it it was pretty split at the meeting. I was when you do your budgets, there'll be a lot more folks there typically. Yeah. So maybe we do want to have a special. We can help you. I mean, I don't know. But sometimes it is sometimes it is helpful to do a special. Yeah. You don't get the crowd, right? Unless the special is something like a school or something. Right. Right. Um

what's that? The motivation presented. The motivation was that our town population is getting to a point where it's it's recommended to go to five. You over 10,000 people over 10,000 like a representation. Exactly. We're over 10,000 folks now. You got 11,000. Yeah. Yeah. Threes might not be There's always like three or four reasons that people bat around and so I was wondering I mean that was the the population was the biggest. Yeah. It's more the growth of the size of the town. Yeah. You had two people who are going to control all these decisions. Is that is that what you want? Town can decide. Is that enough? Right. No. Right.

Well, I mean the argument like the argument that actually makes the most sense is that you have selects serve on like every other committee and if you only have three, you don't have enough to go around to do all the business, much less how many people's opinions. We have three. The problem is you can't get three. How you going to get five? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. But we have Well, Chris, you're going to sign up. Don't we have three right now? I don't need that. I guess we have three right now. Yeah, we have three. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, as exciting as it is to issue liquor licenses. And you actually Yeah, we do a lot of those, Courtney, don't we? I mean, you know, it's like that's liquman business. They issue liquor licenses

and they marijuana. They really don't. They building an official is We don't do marijuana here. We have a zone. We have a zone for it. Well, it's for it's for a lot of influence there is where the pot zone is. Yep. Atlantic blast right where I own my building. Yeah. What is this like facing? I think that's going shops on South China. I think we could make a motion to close the hearing. Yeah. Yeah. South China. No, that's unsure. I'll make We're going to make a motion. Yeah. Close the meeting. Yeah. So, close the meeting for Wednesday, November 19th, 2025.

Second. All in favor say I with a roll call. Yeah. I Joseph Joseph Hastiano 8:23. By the way, 20. Yeah. Yeah. 823. Yes. David Axburg. Eye. Tim Martin. Bye. Thank you. Bye. Thank you very much for all coming. Have a nice day. Have a happy Thanksgiving, guys.