Planning Board - Regular Meeting

Sure. Do you need to wait for Betsy or no? Uh, where'd she go? You just went

Well, yeah, cuz she'll let people All right, welcome everybody to the town of Norfolk Planning Board meeting. In accordance with the provisions of MGL chapter 38, section 20, notice is hereby given that the planning board will meet on Tuesday, April 14th, 2026 at 7 p.m. in town hall, meeting room 124. Members of the public are welcome to attend this in person at Onewood Liberty Lane, Norfol Mass or by the remote Zoom connection provided. Please note that the inperson meeting will not be suspended or terminated if technological problems interrupt the remote connection. Going to do uh some attendance. Uh to my right we have Gary Sl.

Gary Sullivan present. I'm Chris Montforth the chair. We've got Dan Seager present. Melissa Mayo here. Tom Richard McCarthy and our T and our um executive assistant uh Matthew Fel. Yep. All right. So we have a 7:00 uh appointment for Nshshire Drive ILP. This is a request for site plan modifications to add emergency generator pad. I do have Josh White from JD Civil. All right. How you doing, Josh? Good. How are you guys doing? Doing well. What do we got going on?

So, I can pull up the plans if I'm able to. Yep. I just made your co-host, Josh.

Perfect. Thank you, Betty. So the plan should be up right now. Y uh basically what's going on is um some changes had to be made based on uh changes from uh MEP uh work and client um decisions um over at ILP. Basically what they're they're changing how they want to heat the building. They're going from modine heaters to uh an HVA more um commercial HVAC system. So they wanted to add a 6x6 pad um in the back of the building um for that unit. Um and then they also wanted to add a a backup generator. Um so we have a 6x6 pad shown for that as well. um with some ballards around um with these couple um these couple changes as well as another change um doesn't show up on this plan, but basically the um the sprinkler room is going to be repo relocated to the front of the building in this corner. Um it was in the back and um ILP had conversations with the fire department and they accepted that change. Um, so that was uh that's changed up here. It'll be inside the building. Um, there's no door to the outside on the which would be the front of the building. So that's that's fine. Um, in making these changes, there was a a walkway um proposed from this door over to this

um space that's been removed. Um, so a lot less um imperous area. Um, based on that, um, the the front parking lot is still going to be accessible. Um, and there's a door right here if um, it's necessary. Um, they also wanted to add a flag pole that wasn't originally on the plans, but we figured we since we're coming here for those couple things, we might as well add that, too. So, it's going to be located in the front of the building. Um, I believe I believe that's everything. Um, there is one more thing on this um creating a drainage plan. We're also adding an irrigation well in the back. Um so all these items are going to be behind the building um hidden from the street um and protected from the parking lot with ballards. And um this is the the landscaping. Nothing really changed. just more grass area with the removing of the of the paved walkway in the back. So, that's basically all that's involved with this uh modification request. Um, we wanted to submit it back to the planning board because the town inspectors are going going off of the MEP plans and the approved site plan and they were they were slightly different. So that's why we wanted to make that change to um update the site plan. Um so they're all looking at the same um plans and scope and everything like that. So they'll see everything once it's installed and

they'll be able to compare it appropriately. So if you guys have any questions, comments, concerns, we'll be happy to answer them as best we can. Uh so this has been reviewed by the fire department already. Yes, there was uh not this plan specifically, but whatever had to do with the moving the um sprinkler room in the building that was um agreed upon between IOP and the um fire chief I believe last fall. I'm not sure when exactly that happened, but um

Okay. But as far as like location of the generator or anything like that, that has not been reviewed with him. No, I'm not aware that he's seen this plan. Okay. Um, you will see the plan when it gets rerouted through. Um, and then for the flag pole, is there any plan for lights or anything attached uh to the base or anything like that? I believe Jeff is on the call from ILP. Jeff, do you know if you're going to have lights or anything like that?

You're muted.

Yes. Hi, good evening everyone. My name is Jeff Jerry with Pilot Money Power. Uh just first off, Jim O'Neal, the president of ILB, he did review these site plans, including the relocation of the spring room and the generator location and HVAC with the fire chief. I don't know exactly when that was, but I know it was in the first quarter of this year. Um and then yeah, it was last August that I spoke to the fire chief and his lieutenant about relocating the sprinkler room from the back corner of the building to the front side of the building. basic adjacent to Shire. They were pleased with that change because it just provided greater access to them and quite honestly it was a little bit of a value engineer for us because we didn't have to run pipe all the way to the other side of the building. Um we were much closer to the water source right off Sher. As far as the uh flag pole was concerned, yes, we did envision um adding a light an uplight at the base of the flag pole to shine the light. Okay.

Yeah. Any questions from the board? Any questions from the audience? All right. So then I'm looking for a motion to approve the site plan modifications for NH Drive for ILP. So move. Do I have a second? Second. All those in favor? I opposed. Hearing none. The motion passes. Thank you. Perfect. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

Thank you. All right. We are on time for 8 Sharon Avenue. Request of site plan modifications for change of use from contractor's headquarters to indoor recreation. Eliminate the front steps and walkway and modify sign to a 4x4 aluminum. Please come on up. Introduce yourself. I do. Um, I'm the uh the property owner at 8 Sharon A. Dave Fleshman, uh, owner of Wolfpack Athletics who would be occupying it. Awesome. All right. Tell us a little bit about what you're trying to do.

Uh, I guess we needed to do first a change of use from the contractor base to a uh bas a baseball training facility. Okay.

Uh Dave and his company is going to be renting the whole building. So that's one of the changes. Uh well, change of use. Uh we also needed to uh asking you to remove the front walkway uh of the building. It's never going to get used. It's still going to be access out. It's going to be green area. Um obviously increase the pvious area uh and the steps that go into that walkway. Uh and then the third one was um we have granite a granite post for our pylon sign. Uh just like a for shower nav we want to just make that into 4in aluminum. Okay.

Are you going to keep the same number of entrances or you going to reduce those down? Nope. Uh entrance door is going to stay the same. Okay. So they still be able to access it to the uh you know as emergency uh needless. Okay. Any questions from anyone on the board? When you remove that walkway in the front, what will that the porest material be? All grass. It's just grass right up to the building.

Yeah. Well, I'm I'll probably have some sort of a landing um in the front of the every door. So when they step out, there's some sort of a whether it's going to be I can ask Dan American who's the engineer if I can pour concrete there. It's supposed to be I'll put something there as use it. They they're going to step into, you know, more than just grass. So and the parking's around the back anyway, right? So they'll probably use those doors.

Yes. So in terms of process-wise the there's not it's really going to it would be a two two-step process because the plans that are on record have need to be mod updated. code to change the parking computation for the new use based on determination. Um the plans need to be description needs to be removed cuz it's not going to be contractor anymore any longer. If it gets approved, um the detail should change and put the if you're going to put concrete by each door, we should have that detail sheet should be changed. moving after. Can we just leave I mean can we leave it just grass and maybe put some piece of flag stone in front of the doors? I

mean I don't particularly have a preference I guess. Um if you put something that's besides grab whatever you're going to do we need to show it on. Okay. Well, as far I know you mentioned parking. Uh yeah. So the parking computation right now is based off a contractor's head. I think Dave Dave had figured out that um the building inspector had figured out that we do have enough pocket spaces for a 70 the determination. So there's a determination that was sent to the board. Um sorry but that is what at least that's the layout.

Yeah. Of what's proposed inside the building. Go. So that's what I'm looking for. There's so approve site plan. Wait, wait,

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. The approved site plan right there stop provides 25 spaces which corresponds to a design occupancy of approximately 75 persons. If the occupant seeks a higher occupancy, additional parking will be required. So it's it will have to be self-limited in the approval cuz there's not otherwise 220 divided by 3 is uh I don't know do the math it's 18 some places. So then ideally when they get their occupancy it's for that amount. Your approval should also be correspond with that. So it's locked into that number. You think you'll go over 75?

No. I don't think we'll get to 75 people at one time. I've never seen that many people play baseball before. I don't think Yeah. Yeah. Even there's Yeah. I don't think we'll get to I mean no way. You'd have to expand if you did. Well, yeah. That's fine. That's a good problem to have. Yeah. I think the other thing we'll probably add in just as a condition is just parking management so that you're not parking on Sharon's Avenue. Yeah.

Um because it should be on site. Um there shouldn't be a need to be out in Sharon's Avenue with parking just to as additional condition. I know the 10 Sharon Avenue. I see them parking on Sharon's Avenue cuz they probably need more parking on the property. that's separate, but I don't I want to make sure that's on the property parking as part of the approval, especially since there's neighbors there, but also the fire I mean the police Yeah. is located there as well. So,

what's in um the big So, on that part that we were just looking at where there's like the lanes for baseball where I assume it's like one-on-one training. What's the bigger area that's to the right of that and closer to, you know, the right side of the building if you're looking from the street? So, uh thank you. The bigger green spot right there. Yes, that open turf space. So, it's still training. That's baseball training that's happening during those. So, there's hitting going on in the four cages or pitching going on those cages. We also have open space and then you can take the nets back and it becomes one big space um so that we can kind of have like our team practice there or you know so the main focus is classes so it's not you know what's your max class size

uh like eight seven or eight eight we try to we like yeah most would ever be 10 but we just try to keep it small also uh from a honestly from a coach to kid ratio you want to keep that small too so the kids are getting the most out of How many classes concurrently would you typically have? Like maybe two. Two or so. Three max. Two probably. So it's like half the capacity of what you'd be. Yeah. You know, if we at some point would be three. Sure. But I don't think it's going to be like an amazing amount. We don't want six, you know, we don't want 75 kids in there at once. It's also not about that. That's about more structured training and reps for kids, too.

Yeah. Okay. Any questions from the audience? Uh, hi. I have a question. Hi. Are you Laura and or Jake? Uh, actually, I'm Tim Morris. Thank you. How are you doing? Well, good. Uh, my question is where are the hours going to be? cuz the exit of this place shines right into my bedroom and my living room. The the the the exiting car is lights. Uh most likely it'll probably be like I would say like 8:00 p.m. at its latest or uh 7:30 8:00 p.m. at its latest.

Okay. And weekends uh earlier. Sure. Sure. Okay. Yeah, it's more about the night time, you know. Well, in the winter it's 4:00 at night, so but uh uh also I did see a question from my neighbor. Uh will the doors be open or how how will the sound be with the baseballs, the hitting with the aluminums and all of that? Uh no, the doors will not be open. Uh everything will be closed off. Uh I mean there's nets that's going to be securing the entire space. So everything's hidden into a net. it's not hidden to um and it it very much is con condensed into the facility. It wouldn't be pinging outside too often.

Okay, that's all I have. Thank you. Thank you. This is Michelle Daswood at 11. Sharon, when you say not too often, what are you referring to? Are we going to hear a lot of the noise or not? Uh we had a problem with the uh bay across the street and they rented to a band at one time and it was horrible for months of listening to this noise. So I want to know what the noise control is going to be.

Yeah. I I wouldn't expect you to be hearing um loud noises outside the facility. A lot of it is condensed and with the nets that are in there. Um a lot of it is condensed into the facility. So I I don't expect you to hear noises out there. Okay. And there's no concern regarding traffic. You don't expect that many coming every hour. It just, you know, this is a second facility housing kids on the street with the police flying up and down the street. That's my concern. Like there's some cops that go quite fast and you're going to have kids coming in and out of cars, in and out of driveways. So, it's just a concern that we have um you know, in our neighborhood. I think the the good part about that is that it's condensed to the back of the facility where the where the pickup and the drop off is going to be with all the parking spaces. So, it's not going to be um on the front where kids are going to be running out front. We're not going to be uh either like playing baseball outside in that grass patch that that's not what we're using it for. So, you won't have baseballs flying in your front yard and you won't have kids running across the street uh looking for baseballs. Again, everything is the facility and the the method of in and out is out back where that parking is.

What age group are you um aiming this towards? Uh so we uh start at, you know, like seven year olds and we go all the way up until 18. Okay. There'll be no lawyering after practice. You know, will they they be leaving the facility as soon as they're done? Yes, they need to get in and get out. And that's what we uh preach to them, too, is that get your stuff, get out of there. Your parents are waiting. Uh parents know to be picked up. So no, there should be there should no loitering.

Any other questions? All right. Hearing none, Rich, let's uh break this down. All right. So, first we're going to change the um do the change for use from contractor bays to recreational facility. So, yes. And that'll all need to be again. It will be a two-step process. Right. So, we do this one first and then I'm tying the occupancy to the second piece or the first piece. Uh I kind of like to see it before that actually. So, all right.

Um I think I'm proposing a compromise of a at least these these will be what we included. have the plans changed and then you can officially prove it at the May meeting cuz that way you know everything will be documented ahead of time so we're not cuz they're the building's under construction so right it's kind of I don't want to have things hanging out there with some tieback I'm also I'm feeling I'm in a good mood was a really good sunrise this morning

and uh I am okay with looking at this from a as perspective. What are your thoughts on that? Well, you're feeling pretty pretty uh um is that too much? Uh I think it's too much. Okay. I know he wants to say too much, but we just got done approving something where the plans are showing what they're doing. So, you uh you're moving in uh thinking June 1st, maybe. All right. So maybe it's not a horrible timeline for us to come back and do an official vote on everything once you've got the plans updated and everything.

So So update the plans shown the outside. I mean his use is not going to be on a plan. Where is it? Well, you contractor bays on there. So you got to remove the contractor bays. You got to make it a recreational facility. You got to kill put the flag stone or whatever it is you're putting at each doorway. Okay. And then you have to put the occupancy onto the drawings as well. Okay. Anything else I missed? And the sign. And the sign. Update the sign. Yeah. And now's a great time to add a flag pole, apparently. Lights. The lights. Yeah. All right. So, uh, we look forward to seeing you again in May then. Should we do the change of use now so they can start doing whatever they have to do? Is that

Or does that have to be tied to It seems like it could be separate. Rich wants to tie everything to actual drawing sitting in front of the desk. I think you can do the change of use. Change of use is So, yeah. You you could do that just a little appreciate that little cuz he's he's going to get I'm just going to have to like I know yeah June is a move in but yeah there's a lot of planning I know so all right feel somewhat take your vote on the change use okay need to have the plans updated all right so I'm looking for a motion for the change of use for a Sharon AB from contractor base to recreational facility so moved do I have a Second. All those in favor? I.

All those opposed? Hearing? None. The motion is passed. All right. So, get the drawings updated and we'll see you in May. Sounds good. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Is there a date in May or second Tuesday? Uh May 12th. May 12th. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Thank you all. Take care. Thank you. All right. Now we have our 75 echo. 7:15 meeting for 9092 96 100 and 100R Pond Street. Talk to you later. This is continued from March 10th, 2026. We have next great on the line. We do. All right. How's it going, Daniel?

Hey, it's going great. Thanks for having me. Sorry I couldn't make it in public. Uh in person rather. Um had a flight today, so I just got back to New England. Um, so I know you guys have two things you want to talk about, the the project itself, but I believe you guys also wanted a storm water update. So I I have Landon, our construction manager, and Brian from DSC on the line, who's the civil engineer, um, who's helped prepare the, um, these docks and the storm water pollution prevention plan. So, if if it's okay with you guys, I'd like to get that done and you know, they can log off after that and start the the update on the battery.

Sounds good. Thank you. All right, Landon, do you just want to give an update on where we're at, where we've been?

Uh, yeah. Um, so last couple weeks since the site visit with uh the EPA, uh Brian has prepared and filed uh the nifty's permit, the general construction permit for storm water uh that was approved um 2 days ago. We got that back. Um, we are in the process of contracting Brian and his team to monitor all the that swift report and keep it going for the duration of the project. All items have been addressed on site. We've reinstalled silk sock. We've added additional silk sock. We've added additional completed the rip wrap uh spillway waves along the roadside. Uh cleaned out the storm drain sils. Uh we've refreshed the road so the mud doesn't track on onto the on street. um continuing sweeping and we're actively removing the soil piles um that are closest to street.

Okay. Now, Rich, do you have a copy of that approval? Yeah, they there's a copy in the in the share drive construction. All right, Brian, anything you want to add?

No, I'm I'm sorry. I haven't been out to see this site recently, so I really don't have anything further, but um yeah, I mean, as soon, you know, we're going to get out there soon. We'll be doing the weekly inspections as required and the reporting and, you know, deficiencies will be uh will be cleaned up and taken care of within the 7 days as required by the by the EPA. Um, so nothing further. Okay. Um, one thing I have noticed from driving around is the auto body shop is parking across the top of your silt sock on that uh, I guess south side of uh, the property boundary. Have you seen that?

Uh, I I haven't seen him on top of the silk sock. Um, I saw them, you know, encroaching on the property, but I didn't know they were I didn't see them driving on top of it. Okay. Um, just keep an eye on it cuz it definitely looks like there's still stock underneath half of the vehicle that they have on that side where their property border is yours. Okay. Yeah. Our plan um is, you know, once we kind of get going again is put that fence up as soon as possible.

Okay. Any questions from the board? Any questions from the audience as pertains to the Storm water. Grab a microphone. Come up to the front. Introduce yourself. Name and address.

Hi, my name is Julie Mkei. Uh 33 Stanh Hope Drive. Where will the snow from the site be plowed and how is the resulting meltwater accounted for in the storm water design given the ledge conditions? And has the updated design been independently reviewed? Uh I mean well I mean I say like once it's operational we don't allow the sites unless we need access for maintenance and in that case it's one road within the property within the property that that's it that would be get plowed right correct correct

am I to understand there's no plan except for do it if it snows there's no requirement for them to plow they don't need access to the site they're not going to do anything. Okay. And how is the melt water accounted for in the new designs? That's accounted for in the storm water drainage plan. Okay. And has the updated design been independently reviewed? Has beta reviewed the updates? Yeah, it's in pro. Yes, they're ongoing. It's ongoing or yes, they've been reviewed.

It's both. So, they have been reviewed and they're continue to be reviewed until this modification gets approved. I do have concerns that ongoing modifications seem to be a pattern. So just worried to make sure we pause for the approvals between them is a concern of the citizen. I appreciate that. Yeah, we currently have the approval for the current plan and so what we're going to do is ensure that Beta reviews it, provides us any concerns that they have, and then we'll come back to Next Grid and have a conversation with them. Seems like a rotation, but I appreciate it. No problem. All right, Landon, Brian, if that's all you have, we'll go back to Dan.

Oh, hold on. We got one more. Carney, no worries. Come on up. Uh Andy Bakinowski. Um I I I think that the plowing issue actually needs to be partially reviewed by the fire department cuz every single solar field I've ever worked on requires 24-hour access. So, as much as 2 in of snow versus 2 in of ice, that has to be looked at. Um, it's a pain in the neck for the developers, but that's that's usually part of the conditions, and I don't know what you have have done. Um the other thing that um is a little interesting to see is the timing of putting the nippies permit in when the actual removal of trees and the disturbance of that 1acre threshold was done almost 8 months ago. So I'm not quite sure why that fell off the the checklist. um having had to deal with a couple problems with the EPA coming in because of off-site drainage, not much worse than what we had here. But again, that's something that um you know, when you look at this, I guess the the questions to be asked and Dan from uh next just so you know, I am the biggest proponent of solar. I'm not trying to bust balls here, but I'm at the same time I'm really trying I'm I'm I'm I'm I guess I have a certain level of expectations with these projects and all the ones I've ever worked on, too. Um, also sitting on the board of health, um, I would like to invite you to come in and just talk with the board about the safety stuff, um, and where we as a board specifically deviate from what the fire department is. The fire department deals with when a problem happens. the board of health does have a codified uh responsibility to identify um potential

and the the legal interpretations in the papers that I've read and I got highly educated this past week on a lot of this stuff. Um the the word may carries as much legal weight as the word shall. So I'm I'm asking that um come in and just talk with us and we want to see and our goal is not to stop the project. It's to maintain compliance and that it happens with inspections, periodic reporting, and unfortunately, it's more paperwork, but um understanding how things can go south really quick with these battery storage equip systems if it does go south. Um we need to we need to be um aware of what's going to happen. And I'd rather have the plans in place well before it becomes a case of who's doing what, you know, what's happening here. So, so that's uh uh Betsy, we'll be reaching out to you at some point here, hopefully sooner than later. Uh and we'll uh we'll go from there. So,

okay. Yeah. May I please respond? Share. Yes, sir. Oh, sorry.

Yeah. Uh so, a few things. So, in our operations, the maintenance plan does show that we will plow after every snow event to the equipment pads. Um but on this site, that's not particularly long plowing run. it's going to result in in you know big snow piles. Um it's relatively close to the to the road. Um so that is addressed in our operations and maintenance plan which is part of the public record. Um uh I can I can let Landon talk more but we did uh you know we will take responsibility. You know obviously we did not file our nippies permit when we were supposed to. Um, the candid reason is that we had hired another contractor that was supposed to do that and we ended up firing them before they broke ground and the new contractor was under the impression that was already placed and it wasn't and uh we made a mistake. Um, we're sorry. We definitely met with the EPA on site and explained the situation to them and um got them on board. So um you know that that was a mistake in oversight. It's never happened to us before and we hope it doesn't happen again and we're sorry it happened in a town that is interested in what we're doing and that we're having these problems uh right now with storm water. So, um we do apologize and acknowledge that. Um, and you know, lastly, I'll talk about this later, but uh, the the town manager there or the town administrator did reach out and said he's planning a public event and he's going to be inviting um, all boards as well as the DOER um, and the public to try to get all these battery questions kind of handled at one time with everybody involved. Um, and so, uh, I'm sure he'll be reaching out to you and the board of health to to get you guys on board for that meeting, I believe near the end of May.

Okay. So, it's it's May 7th. May 7th, the beginning of May, sorry. Beginning of May, 7:00 p.m. in the Freeman Kennedy Cafeteria. Thank you.

Awesome. Thank you so much. All right. All right. Ready to switch topics? Not yet. Name and street. My name is John Bowman. I live at 44 Lakeshore Drive. Um I also sit on the board of health. Um sat through a fairly long meeting earlier uh this week. Um where some concerns that other towns are experiencing were discussed in detail. So I I don't mean to interrupt I will interrupt you actually not because I want to because there's two of you here in the room on from the board of health and we did not post you as a public body to be here.

So if you want to talk as a citizen of the town of Norphick so I'm speaking as a citizen of the board of speaking of a cit as a citizen okay of the town. I wanted to be just um I do believe a representative from the board of health did speak and he did invite the folks to come to the board of health. I'm just reiterating this not as a member of the board of health but as a citizen. Okay. There are some concerns that I that should be discussed. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you.

All right. Good. I guess one question I have is since Andy I'm going just go ahead. So is May so Rob if Rob hasn't reached out to you Gary about the May 7th meeting. I I heard I I heard it was the sixth or seventh or 8th already.

So it's it's definitely the seventh. Um, is that do you want to have a separate meeting next to it outside prior to that or just asking just a logistical question or is that I'll come back though? Um, I don't know. I my my feeling is the more communication the better. Um, I know we have a meeting scheduled at the end of this month. Um if if maybe if Dan would be amendable to zooming in, we can have a quick um I guess expectations of what the what the board is concerned about from the perspective of human health and the environment. And this way you're greasing your skids a little bit to gear gear your talk and your information to what's important. And as you always know, things go much larger than you anticipate. So I think that might be that might be to your benefit. Um and I guess see what happens on the 7th. So

Okay. Yeah, that's what I wanted to ask. And Rich, just just so you know, um the the John and I did attend the same conference and um the fact that we aren't deliberating here allows us to be here without it being posted. We Yeah, this this was actually a section that they talked about about open meeting laws. So, um, I know it's it's a sensitive issue for a lot of people, but what John and I being here, we're not talking about any project per se in deliberation, not making any any decisions. So, um, believe me, we were we're very careful. We're we're being very careful, okay,

but we've had open violations against the town. I don't want to have any more if we I understand. I understand. No, I understand. Okay. Thanks. Thank you. Um just the last piece I guess right that be so we don't have the peer review yet from Jensen Hughes on the battery storage which they do know but just to let people know and I've asked them to have that for that public forum. I don't see any reason why it won't be so just to for the public. We we don't have it yet. So and when we get it we'll post it on the website. Yeah.

Uh just a quick question just to be in is probably to to you. Um just to be as effective as possible, you've been here a couple times. You've asked him some questions in the past and I think you may have even invited him once before in the past, but have you communicated what your conversation and questions will be about when he finally arrives at whether it's the seventh meeting or a meeting directly with the board of health or just again normally we try to say we will be talking to you but here's our questions. Do you feel some need that you wouldn't do that in advance? Um I can I have I have so many list of sorry

I can actually jump in there while you're getting seated. So there were a bunch of different places where questions were being asked and one of the places uh Daniel Serber took a ton of notes. I tried to get Yeah. And then there was also and I met you know these are to

right so I will follow up with Rob and make sure that and Andy you can contribute to that I know I had some of your questions in there but if you have others we can certainly add to I I I I have a list I'm going to say it's some of it's almost irrelevant but it's just sort of more out of curiosity but um Those will I will I will flush that out and I guess the question is copy Rich and Betsy and Rob on those questions that I have. Okay. Yeah, sure. Okay. So, well, but Melissa, do you want to be copying? I don't mean it's not the full board. Yeah, that's how I understand. Yeah, it's not the full board, but yeah, I have that document. Jack has it as well, but I can just one of us just send it to me and I'll just I'll put yours into the spreadsheet because that's the the one place for all outstanding questions. Okay. Right now. Okay. Okay.

All right. Awesome. Cool. Thanks. Okay. And then in light of not having the peer review for the battery, I do not want to entertain questions on the battery at this point in time, especially since we do have a forum on the 7th where we can address questions at that time post review of the peer review. Chris, are you are you aware of the struggle of trying to get a peer review where it was?

Uh, it's it's wide. It was wide open. I mean I I gave I gave just so you know I gave the fire chief seven names of companies and several declined because they work with Nexrid. Um so I mean that the the conflict of interest is there but the believe me this was this was very challenging and I'm I'm just letting you know that the time and effort to to take to at least get that I think we probably lost 3 to four weeks maybe. So then I think when we met met in January. So I mean nothing I have no idea even when it started but I think it was probably 3 or 4 weeks ago. Okay. And typically from my professional experience you know these can take 2 months. So yeah. So okay appreciate it. Thank you.

Thanks. Thanks Andy. Awesome. All right. Any other topics for discussion? Dan, anything on your side? No, no. If you don't want me to go through the the memo and response to those questions, just wait till 7, that's more than fine with me. Any concerns? I think you already responded to the memo questions, right? Did you receive an updated version? Go over those. Um Oh, yeah. Okay. So, let me just I'll We can wait till the seventh at this point.

Um I mean, I think you'd probably want to heads up just so you can be prepared. So, I had sent them. So, I'll wait for Andy's questions. um make another version update, send it to our town administrator, Rob, and and the crew here so that everybody knows what questions there are. Um and then I can I'll ask Rob or Rich to send them over to you just so you're prepared so that you can have the answers. Awesome. Any other questions from the board? No. All right. Anything else from the audience? All right. Thank you very much, D. need to continue. I need a motion to continue the 90 9296 100R Pond Street. So moved

public hearing. Do I have a second? Second. All those in favor? I. All those opposed? Motion carries. All right. 7:30 we've got 33 Pawn Street, Pawn Street Recreation Complex, site plan approval for construction of pickle ball courts and ADA improvements. What time did you Oh, I didn't continue it to a day. Um, continue to the May 12th meeting at what time? Why don't we go 7:15? 7:15. Do I have a second? Do I have a motion? Second. Second. All those in favor? I. All those opposed.

All right. Motion's carried. Excuse May 12th at 7:15. Am I up? You are up. Yes. Notice is hereby given in accordance to mass general law section 4. This is the right one. 33 pon pickle ball. Y to wave the reading. So move. Do I have a second? Second. All right. All those in favor. All those opposed plan approval. Please come on up. Introduce yourselves. Oh, look who's back.

Is this a special evening? That wasn't very long. Was trying to figure out how to introduce myself. So, I am Anne Praau, uh, formerly the recreation director, but still around helping out with projects that are ongoing. Um, my name is Bill Buckley and I work for Bay Colony Group and I'm here the representing as the applicants engineer and I'm going to introduce Josh Walther, recreation director.

Um, so we are here to talk to you about 33 Pond Street and the engineering work that Bill um has done. Uh, we are addressing the pickle ball courts but also ADA accessibility. Uh we're this is a phase project. We do have the funding for the pickle ball courts. We are uh we are planning on applying for a grant for additional ADA work which is do which is documented here. Uh we actually did apply for two grants uh for ADA accessibility. One at Freeman Kennedy which we received, one at Pawn Street which we did not receive, but we actually didn't expect to receive both. and it's fine because we probably couldn't have gotten it all done anyway. Um, so we will be reapplying for that, but this gave us the opportunity to do all the engineering at one time together. And as we do the pickle ball court, we will be addressing some of the ADA and then we will continue with that project down the line.

Is that the plan you wanted?

That's good. Thanks, Sam. So again, good evening. My name is Bill Buckley and what we put up is a rendering for the uh the board to look at as we do it and you know we have the plan set as well. So whether everybody's familiar with the location 33 Pawn Street, it's a 20.8 acre parcel of land located on the east side of Pawn Street. Um it's about 800 ft north of the intersection of Marshall Street and it was constructed around 1999ish um by the town. It currently, you know, it services a multitude of activities. Baseball, soccer, football, basketball. Basketball, right? Um, tennis, volleyball, um,

not so much anymore. It's still there. I'm going to talk about skateboarding, too, but it's gone. That's gone, too. Is gone.

And, uh, it contains about 150 parking spaces and a gravel parking lot in the front there. Um so what we're what we're proposing is the construction of three pickle the volleyball net and so the volleyball court is in this area right here and you can see the pickle ball areas here. Um this is the paved parking area and this is pave parking and this is the um current handicap accessibility that Ann was talking about that we'll be doing some improvements on on the project. The um the site is a a a not saying normal size but a regulation size pickle ball courts. Um it's surrounded by 8ft high uh fencing to in order to the balls won't go in and out. There's um um gates on the front and on the rear of it as well. And there's also a larger gate on the right front as you're looking at this drawing for vehicles to go in and out for maintenance purposes, but it's mainly for man gates. Um that ADA area, which you can see there. So, you look at it and it looks fine to me anyways, but the town had um a consultant go through and take a look at the ADA ex uh facilities for the recreation department and they found that this is slightly out of code as far as um slopes go. So, one of the things that will be done or we're proposing on this plan is the reconstruction of it in order to bring it into compliance with the current ADA regulations. In the back there, in the back corner of it, which is this barrier here. So, that area is currently a gravel driveway that goes down to the back, which I guess washes out fairly often. Um, and what's what's we're we're

proposing in that area. It's about 300 ft of of paving in that and we'll be making it 10 ft wide. And then at the end of it, we're going to widen it out. We'll be put a handicap accessible space at the bottom there and you'll be able to pull in, pull out, and then drive back out um in that area as well. Um we also show down at the bottom there some um fencing in order to protect in case a vehicle decides to come down. It's there's some some protection there for the because the soccer fields are right along the edge as well. Um there's also on the right side as you look at it coming down around that curve you can see service the entire facility. The um originally we asked for two waiverss from the board which we've since withdrawn. One of them was a traffic report. We have filed a traffic report. We had Gillan Associates do one for it. Um if you've taken a look at it, you can see that the site the 80 average daily trips on on Pawn Street, excuse me, in the front here is about 10,500 trips per day. Uh the the traffic gurus I know I should know the Ashtto people don't currently have pickle ball generation statistics for it but what they usually but what Jack has said in his report is they'll use a very conservative number of 24 cars per hour per court. Um, yes, 24 hours per hour power per court, which is very conservative because a pickle ball court is, as I understand it, is a maximum of eight people playing at one time. So, even if everybody shows up at once, it would be kind of odd, but

four people. Yeah, four and four, right? Can you play four and four? Two and two. Two and two. So, I was just watching my wife play once. Unless there's something I don't rotate people in and out, perhaps. Yeah. So, it could be eight people.

Yeah. So, we're looking at um so really it's and Jack came up with the numbers. It's it's almost um unmeasurable traffic impact. As I stated, there'd be no change in the number of parking spaces. We're not changing the access to the existing parking lot. Um there's no no water no change to the water system. Not even sure there is one. Um there's no sewer, no other utilities there. We are putting drainage in in order to service the two additional areas of impervious and they're both underground drain systems. One is up near the new pickle ball court. It's underground chambers and then there's one down at the bottom there as well as underground chambers. Some of the things we've designed this over the winter, tough winter. So, one of the things we haven't done yet is soil testing down there. We're trying to coordinate that with the DPW, but we do have a huge amount of data from when the original facility was built and we included that in our analysis and in our reports. So, um, and the soils there were really good and the water tables pretty deep. So, when I think when we do do our actual permeability testing and I'm fairly confident that if anything, we'll be conservative for it. Do you know where on the property those testings were performed?

Yeah, all over. It's all over the property. The drainage basin and we included that in our report as well. There was um and by that I think it's a baseball field. And I think I'll stop right there.

I would like just to address uh the location of the pickle ball court. So, we looked at several areas in town before we arrived at this location. One of the well, I will say one of the things that our facilities they're of of an age that they they they're lack ADA accessibility. And now I think if you someone was to design a recreation facility, they would put courts closer to we wanted something close. We looked in town and at every location. not to use that that location. But this particular facility, the volleyball court at one time 15 years ago was used fairly regularly. Rice Fields in front has a volleyball court that is now used by the high school. So they're not using our that facility as much. And that volleyball court was actually built um because the original volleyball court was installed in 1999. It was a sand volleyball court, but it had a curb, a concrete curb around the whole thing, same color. And um I refused to open it. It was just not a safe setup. So um at that time we p we that's when we put the skate park in and that lived a very long life. It was about 19 years and then the equipment just finally died a slow death. But um but that's why we chose this location for the pickle ball court. And as far as the um the parking down below, I don't some of you are probably very familiar

in the virtual. Um I think I can you know generally plan I for example like next Wednesday there's a school um meeting my son's sixth grader becoming

hard for grandparents to get to those fields it's very hard I mean you have to like cut through another fields you know scooch by the tennis courts and go down a hill like this it's so this will give accessibility But it was um the lighting. We done a phototric plan. We've asked we've asked them to, you know, give you all the details of it. And if you look at the phototric plan, Betsy, you can put it up if you want to take a look at it. It it it doesn't shine probably 20 ft beyond the um the area

where we play. Will it be on a timer or motion activated or uh so it's on it it's adjustable it's excuse me it's we can adjust it at any time um and it can be on a lever you know someone can push a button and it can come on for 45 minutes or an hour or whatever we decide and then it will automatically go off and it cannot go on at past a certain point. Okay. So and that can be controlled remotely and so it's it's not on constantly. It doesn't like automatically come on and just stay on for 4 hours. That's good. Are all the pathways intended to be ADA compliant at some point? Yes.

That gray pathway is it is it does it have different ADA requirements? There are no plateaus or landings when someone's going up an incline. That's correct. because it's what external it doesn't require that it there is there's a certain um standard we have to comply with. So what we're proposing is is dense graded crush stone. It's less than a 2% grade. It's it's flush with the um for example it's flush with the tennis court. It's be flush with the pickle ball court. It's just not required. Someone can go the full distance without relaxing.

Yes. Okay. Okay. All right. So, we got uh Steven Lee from Beta on the phone. Um, do you want to go through your report? Yes. Hi, Mr. Chair. Thank you. Um, yes. So, we reviewed the the storm water report and site plans and there wasn't too much that jumped out. Um, very very standard comments for our first um, round of comments. Um let me try to find let's see you know asking for information about seed mix and you know tree planting um and then and then uh storm water. So, you know, the the the storm water report um we asked to include a pre-development um and host development wershed plan um to make the the hydro a little easier to to read uh how the calculations were done. Making sure that the the pre and the post development um flows um and volumes are all reduced. They they had addressed the um I know that they haven't had a chance to do the on-site soil testing, but that's I I've been informed by Rich and now by um

that that is going to be occurring. Um uh there was a comment about providing at the lower basin and I was unaware just I didn't know that this project was going to be phased when I was reviewing it. So this is something that's you know it's part of phase 2 isn't a super urgent thing but it was the idea of the tree box filter at the bottom goes into the infiltration basin and there's no emergency overflow for that. So, I was imagining I know it's really good material and there's no water water table issues. Just on the off chance that it were to fail, the water would get backed up and it would come out of the tree box filter. So, I had recommended either a graded structure or they have these um contraptions that allow the water to alleviate. It's a hot pop emitter, something like that, just to provide an emergency overflow when it does get built. And um just uh some other um storm water comments from the regulations. um you know pro providing a drain manhole and grate on each end of the infiltration on of the subsurface infiltration system to make sure it can be maintained. Um, and yeah, that's pretty much there were a couple smaller items just how calculations were done, but that's the the the just the excuse me, I'm happy to answer any questions.

Thank you. Any questions from the board around the uh data peer review? All right. Any concerns with any of the comments from beta? No, Mr. Chairman. All right. All right. Uh, reviewing the design. Any concerns with uh what we have proposed in front of us? Not with the design, but there are a few storm water items that have not been addressed yet. Right. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to pend a decision based on that getting rectified for sure. Yeah.

Any questions from the audience online or in person?

All right. And so I guess we're going to pen some updates uh based on Beta's comments and uh look to see you at our May 12th meeting. Is that enough time or do you need more time? Like we had to take test pits. That's That's our That's what we're waiting on. So, we'll get the test bits done between now and May, do you think? I think May 12th will be fine. I'll get we'll get them done. If not, we can always continue it further. Okay. All right. So, for now, we'll put you on the agenda for May 12th at 7:30. All right. So, looking for a motion to continue the 33 Pawn Street Pond Street Recreation Complex site plan approval to May 12th at 7:30 p.m.

Do I have a second? Second. All those in favor? I. All those opposed. All right. Thank you very much. Take care. Thank you very much. All right.

7:45 224 Denim Street special signed special permits. Notice is hereby given in accordance with Mass General Law section 4A and the Norfick zoning bylaw section 310 6.9. A subsection subsection 19 that a public hearing will be held on Tuesday, April 14th, 2026 at 7:45 p.m. in room 124 Norfolk Town Hall, 1 Liberty Lane, Norfick, Massachusetts, relative to a special permit application for property located at 224 Denim Street. The applicant, George Mata of Planeville, Massachusetts, is requesting a special permit to allow the installation of a new freestanding sign larger than 12 square ft per side. Property is located in the C1 zoning district reference assessor's map 19 block 69 lot 24. The application and plans are available for public inspection on the town of Norfol website or in the office of the Norfol planning board during the hours of 9:00 a.m. to 6 p.m. Monday through Friday Thursday.

Awesome. All right, Mr. Ma, how are you?

Good evening. Um, so my name is George Madam, property owner and uh manager down the street. We're seeking the special permit to replace the existing sign structure. Currently, the one that we have was recently damaged by a windstorm. Um, so this was a part of a plan to replace the existing sign cuz it's damaged beyond repair. The current sign that we do have is currently non-conforming. However, uh it's because the the signage exceeds the limits of the bylaws and this is for the sole reason that it's a multi-tenant property. So each business has its own sign and collectively they exceed the uh the signage um allowance in the bylaws. So what we're looking to do is propose to replace the sign structure with something structurally sound, more modern um overall be a reduction in height compared to what exists today and scale compared uh to exist today uh to be closer to the regulations. So, we'd like to continue the support for multiple tenants. Uh you can see in the ex uh specs listed um those are the different tenants and each one is going to maintain that 12 square ft um signage limit. So, they'll all be under uh that guideline.

Awesome. And then it looks like we have uh some small LED light uh down lighting from the top. That's correct. Nothing will be facing street side or um any cars driving. It'll all be protected uh within the panels and facing downward. Do you already have electrical at that location or no? Yes, there is currently electrical being supplied to uh to the poles. Awesome. Any other questions from the board? No. I'm glad there's lighting so we can see the names of them when we're driving by. That's a much better looking sign than what was previously there. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Any questions from the audience online or in person?

All right. Hearing none, I'm looking for a motion to approve the signed special permit for 224 Denim Street. So move. All those in favor? I mean second. Second. I got my second here. All those in favor? All those opposed. All right. Motion's approved. Thank you. Thanks. All right, that brings us to 8:00 p.m. public hearing to discuss the proposed zoning bylaw amendments for the 51326 annual town meeting continued from 3:25 26. That's right. So, you got us now.

Yeah. Uh well, probably lead off with just I know there's some questions about intend purpose. So, we want to just probably touch on those. However you want to play it, Rich.

You are the puppet master. Thanks. Um well again just to recap from the the previous public hearing. The intended purpose of the change to the open space preservation bylaw is to allow for an alternative pathway for single family development in the town of Norfolk beyond 40B developments. We have not had a uh subdivision whether it be open space or conventional but open space primarily since 8 years ago 9 years ago now. Um and before you continue like what have we seen with those open spaces? Have we seen them used? Have we seen like um them maintained appropriately like

in terms of the previous sub that were open space? Yeah. The ones that are available, like I have one at the end of F Frederickson Road. Nobody would even be able to tell that it was there. No. So, a good chunk of the ones that have been approved thus far in town really just preservation of wooden areas and keep it in its natural state. There hasn't been uh although I would say where Melissa lives, it's that's one that is more of an you know, open space that's utilized beyond just preservation, which is that one actually is. So there's there's a horse farm right behind my house. And then there's this huge grassy area that the kids call the meadow

where they go and have picnics where they used to when they were little. But um but yeah, and then neighbors, we actually purposely didn't put my neighbor and I didn't put our fences together so we could still have the snow hill there for the kids and stuff. So yeah, and then the horses walk around there as well. So that's one that's that is actually used. Nice. Yeah. And then we had the one by um Mr. Riley's house. Uh

yeah. So the one so Norway Farms. Yep. I mean that essentially became one that was really just to kind of conserve the development footprint and then preserve along Crystal Pond I think it's called, right? Crystal Pond um and buffering, but you know in terms of removal of trees and and so forth, but that's been the lion share. the ones that really been more from a preservation of woodland, you know, a lesser development footprint than coming up with um you know,

it feels good to hear that. It feels like we're being more honest about what it is that we're trying to accomplish here. Yeah. No, no, there's there's not Yes. It's it's it's really more of a reducing a developed footprint. Now obviously you'll say that the way this is is structured it's a development increase in terms if you compare from what the bylaw is today because there's only a 10% bonus for an open space development. uh the reduction that I'm talking about potentially would be from if somebody to go outside which would be a a 40B development which

um it's trying to provide a stepping stone before someone feels the need to have to go 40B to have to go 40B um the it it would be applicable to the R1 R2 R3 so all the residential zoning districts bylaw saying we're going to automatically this 40B development in those outline areas. the we've seen um it's not to say you couldn't see one on the R1, but um those those districts um it's not a holistic approach. It's just another tool to to see if um you know there's another pathway um for development, more responsible development, I guess you'd say, less impactful. Um, but that that's the general purpose of it. And to make it a little bit more flexible in terms of designwise, the lot size in ter each home lot could go down to 15,000 square ft, which is what the original lot sizes were back in 1953. So, we're back back in time, so to speak.

Now, is that consistent with some of the bordering neighborhoods and other towns as well? somewhere around. So, right now we have a half acre, but but there are depends upon the district size for those towns, but it's not necessarily out of bounds, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to get down to 15 per each lot is usually you'd end up having some excess land. So, but but also give them flexibility in the setbacks to to kind of place homes as cuz thinking about this is a planned development, right? So when they come in, you kind of create some flexibility where that home may be located to the home next to it. Uh in terms of setbacks, so that's that's a that's really a nutshell what the I can't guarantee um this is going to work.

Um the frontage requirements, I noticed like one of them in the document was 50. You cross it out, now it's 75. And I'm just curious why the frontage changed. to make it consistent and uniform. So there's an average that you can comply to keep simple math basically consistent because there's the way the bylaw is you can have an average frontage. I quite honestly haven't we haven't seen too many in that regard. Um the um again there's um if you look at provision go to section section F in the intensity requirements in the bylaw. There's a provision where there's a minimum average dimensional requirement minimum average front of all lots and open space developments and it's 100 ft. So it was really more an attempt to create more flexibility. I'm not

Cuz what I was imagining, right, is if I have a lot of lots and now there's more frontage. So meaning like side to side, right? Um, when you're looking at the house, the hole in front of the house in each side. If you require it to be larger, yet the lot is going going to be smaller overall, which is how you would get this density bonus, then you'd have and we have the setbacks for the front yard as well. So, what you'll basically have is a house that's set back on a lot that's wide. So, you'll have two sideyards, a nice front yard, and no backyard. So, that's just a logistical concern. just did. I think people still want backyards. I don't have I don't have data, but I think I think that's a safe bet.

Yeah, but I thought we made the front setback smaller. The front setback is the front set back. So 20 to the open space 20 to open space size 20 where's the I'm looking for the the frontage minimum setback from any boundary space is 25 ft. Yeah. What is the So you don't have an actual setback for frontage called out for the front

front yard setback, right? you don't have a front yard setback called out. So by doing so, you've made it 25 ft. So 25 ft from the side of the street to the front of the house. So theoretically, you could have a big backyard. Where do you see that? Uh it's F C1. FC1. No. So that's from any boundary line of the open space preservation development. So that's like I had to put 20 feet for the for the front. Yeah. Based on is it in here or is it just you it's in three.

You have three but that's uh setback requirements from all dwellings must be separated by each other from 20 ft. So from a public way when open space preservation development 20 ft see and then um C3 this here no right there from a public way within the open space 20 ft. Okay. So the house could actually be because it doesn't say from a public way but all throughout the rest of our bylaws I think we say front set back.

Yeah. We we actually I think it would not be out of bounds to clarify that is if that's No, I think that's a good call out. That's you're not being specific enough. But I do have some other potential concerns potential. There's two documents that are in the share that I uploaded. Oh, okay. Um you can All right. So, Word document first. I'll show you something. This one. Actually, Betsy should probably cuz that way she can. So, yes, the one that says zoning comparison residential open space.

I'll just show you the the numbers that I was playing around with. Oh, is this the Excel sheet here?

So, the Excel one is second. So, I started in the Word document going through some scenarios with comparing the new open space to what a traditional development looked like. to see what the comparison was. And then I went from there to open space versus 40b, which I think was the overall kind of objective that Rich was going for. But then I needed to do math. And so then I went over to Excel cuz that's way easier. Yeah. So you do just what is the first one called? I think what's the first one? It's a Google doc. It is a zoning comparison residential opening comparison. That one

we'll get it open. Hope you don't have to change your password right now, Betsy. Oh my god. Don't joke about that. That was my It happens so often. I get it. We're very secure. My password. Change your password. You can't use the same one. Let's find 1 2 3 4 5 6. Now everybody knows the password.

Oh, hold on. Very twostep verification. It's the world today. want to go with the word doc first though. Yeah, I'll just just quickly so I can show you. Oh yeah. Here we go. There you go. You can just scroll down into the first table. That was just I was just uh noting what we were trying to do there. Okay, so the reasonzoning effort R1, R2, R3.

So the first thing I did was go in and say, okay, for the R1, currently you can have 30,000 square feet, which is 68 acres with a 20% density bonus. That brings it down to 24,000, which is 0.55 acres. So I just went through so that I had that math

and then I scrolled down. You can scroll down. That's the So then I just wanted to see what is the what does it look like now with a traditional subdivision versus open space. So with open space and I think what did I put there? Six acres just just as a random number. But when I compare traditional versus open space with a proposed tier density, this is what it looks like in the R1, R2, and R3. This isn't this isn't 40B. This is just traditional, right? So with an open space subdivision, the developer, if we look at it from that perspective, they lose 25% of their land off the bat, right? So now we're down to 4.5 acres. And then when you add the density bonus to R1, R2, and R3, that's the comparison that you get for for the number of units that you could have in each one, right? So it looks like it's slightly better except in the R1 to have an open space subdivision. R R2, R3, it looks like, you know, that would be slightly better. And then if you scroll down and then here I just said okay let me just try 10 acres and what that looks like. So here again you lose the 25% of all your available space of your lot. Um so it goes down to 7.5 acres developable. So then R1 R2 R3 using that same math how many units can you have using the density bonuses plus the loss of 25%. Is everybody following? I know it's late. Okay. So, again, slightly better when you're comparing traditional subdivision to open space. So, those two, I think if we did this, you if anybody wanted to do a traditional, maybe they'd be like, "Oh, I'll do, you know, an open space because it actually is slightly better for them financially. And then when you get to 40b now, if you want, Betsy, you can just go to that spreadsheet because I did a bunch of different scenarios. Um, but I needed to calculate and it was easier using Excel.

So, I'll show you that other document. Um, uh, I think it's this one. Yep. Oh, this one. Yep.

So, this is super super high level. I don't I'm not a 40B developer. I've never developed an open space subdivision, but using standard numbers, right? So, right now we know that we have we've seen 40BS with 100 units. We've seen them with 50 units. Um, with 40B, for anybody that doesn't know, 40B, there's really no limit as far as density goes. Um, it's just what the what you can build on that property, how many units you can kind of cram in there that the state allows you to do and bypass our zoning bylaws. So, if you look at the 40B, right? So say there's a hundred and then if you look at an open space subdivision by comparison it's significantly less units right but typically the single family homes in Norfolk sell for a lot more than something that's comparable to a townhouse right even though the town houses are fairly pricey here too but if you compare all of that and look at the price per unit and I just use 700,000 for selling a 40B unit based on what I've seen around here 1.3 million would be you know a typical colonial around here right now And then if you just look at say 20% profit, which I don't know if that's I know that's the average in certain cases, but the numbers vary greatly based on a number of factors. So I just use 20 for both of them to be consistent. And I don't think making $3 million versus 10.5 million like that. There's no comparison. They're still going to choose 40B.

Well, I mean the comparison is in the cost of building and the labor that you have. That's what I mean. We don't have those numbers to know the exact. You need those numbers in order to make this a fair comparison. So that fair comparison is based on the average profit that is public knowledge that you can find anywhere if you look up any construction website for Massachusetts. So that's why I use the 20. It's actually usually less. I just don't know the differential between open space and a 40B. You know if that 20 is really 15 for one versus the other. So the 40. So on the on the top of the spreadsheet that's the 700,000. Is that is that market rate 700,000?

Yeah. So I mean we could change that to be whatever, but I some of the like townhouse style homes around here have been selling for 7 800. Some of them are more than that now, but you just never know. So that so that housing type you can't do the townhouse only through 40B,

right? So the town houses though, if you were to do individual homes like they have a development like this and rent them, it's still basically looks like a townhouse, but there's space in between them, you know? So it's not like you don't actually get that much more money for them. You just get no HOA fee, which is nice. is this. So, if I'm looking at the 10 acre wide example, it's a it's it's not going to cut the gap, but the 25 units you wouldn't be able to sell at $700,000. So, that's the effective loss that would have correct.

Yeah. So, in that math, so I basically took out the profit for all of those. So, all those 25 units, I took out all the profit. This is like super super high level. Okay. And both examples are 10. There's so many variables. Yeah. You need a ton of startup capital to be able to build a project that's 100 units.

Well, let's So, and another one of the variables is assuming a 10acre lot, right? There's not many 10acre lots left in town that are just ready to go edge to impossible for me to develop in.

Yeah, I think that's just it. If we knew like the if we knew the lots that are, you know, at risk potentially, I would I would say I think a lot of people in town would agree, then we could actually put in specific information and then if there's, you know, if we do have developers obviously in town that are looking at 40B, so just working, they have a, you know, everybody has their P&L. It's just swapping out numbers. So the so the top line the 40p no density limit the affordables are where's the price per unit though like is that

so price per unit is over in column G for both of them and I just use whatever numbers just to show it's approximately that for both houses. You're doing you're doing half the work making half the money. Am I reading it wrong? Do twice the work, you make twice the money. Twice the work is 40b, right? So the 40 if if that cost model is correct. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I'm just saying you do half the work, you're making half the money. What's I'm I'm trying to understand what's wrong with that. Yeah. Um and and don't you have to isn't the pathway to kicking off 40b development much longer than to just start you know like an open space project in town

100%. Yeah. You have to get you have to get the approval do that whole packet. Yeah. But it seems like you the money is equivalent and that's the thing. I don't think we know less effort. Yeah. Right. So it feels like this is more of a way to sell it. Yeah. It's not that you're making less money doing half the work and you got an easier path to the finish line. I I don't know. That's what I'm seeing. Am I wrong? I don't know. I mean, I don't know that it's half if you're going to do one apartment building, right? You're only building 50 units. But if you're doing 50 units and it's going to be something like what PY is recommending or proposing, right? Which two buildings so you'd only build one? No,

sure. I'm joking. So, like, but one building like that and then versus a bunch of different individual houses, you know, now you're bringing your plumber into every single one. I don't I mean, I guess it depends what kind of developer they are. And that's why I was saying I don't know that we can really say that this would solve that problem without actually talking to developers. This is like back of the napkin math. So, the I have talked to developers, but but I do want to stay pretty focused on this is just single family homes, right? That's it. So, we can't, you know, you know what I mean? So, whatever that's condos, that's that's over there. the town houses are over there. This is just strictly straight up single family home.

So open space is right. And if you're comparing it with a traditional subdivision, that's true. But when you have the opportunity, if you're a developer and you're like, I could do all these individual houses and also lose 25% of my land or build a 40B. Those two comparisons could exist. I think with the only thing I'm kind of wondering so the the the cost of the affordable units is really like in the $350,000 range. So I took out the just to make it simple. I took out the profitability for every single one of those affordable units.

Okay. So on the revenue side, it's based on like 300,000 for the affordable three the call three and a quarter to get to the it's really what I was trying to find was the profit and so I took the I don't know what the profit is on those if it's 10 grand, if it's 100 grand, it depends. So I just took out all the profitability for the 25, the one, the 13. You just did 75 * 700, correct? Yeah. just to make it simple and take those ones out of the out of the calculation completely.

So the one granted I would tell you it's only one so far but well two cases. So one that doesn't seem like it it may not go that way but so the one model was where the one looking at was pawn metal which it's got the project eligibility letter before I talked to you last month about this and they're apply for the butters list and they're looking to file within next by the end of the month which which project is which is the 84 units on 373 3 Main Street. Oh, yeah. The impossible one. Yeah, the one that probably can't move forward.

One entry in, one entry out. Yeah. Okay. So, they're Look, Right. You said you wanted the trailer that's on the property, right? Yeah. I I definitely want to reclaim that trailer. So, they're they're coming in. Yeah. I I there's a lot of questionable things about that development, but what I don't know what will come obviously will come out of it. something they're they have some kind of strategy I suppose I don't know what it is yet right but we don't know right so I think that's the same thing I was saying last time

now the other one is cranberry heights which you know was before the board before and obviously drew without prejudice right so drew with prejudice sorry

so it was 22 units as an open space so looking at that it was the speaking to him about what number would we need to to get to to to change it to be a a non40B development. So that's really the that's tangible that I you know at least I could say like working with a local developer who um does not he doesn't do 40B. He has a partner on that one but traditionally he does he does do 40B developments. He does. So he's did the one on Park Street that that's uh just over the Northtown line there, which is near you actually.

What is it? The one that's um I don't know what the name of it is, but you're heading towards Rentham Center. It's on the right hand side. Oh, the No, the uh Oh, the one across from Target. No, no, we're talking about we're on Park Street now. Park Street. Yeah. Is that the name of it? It might be Park Place. Maybe Park Place. Yeah, it's the Park Place. It's the um our center lives there. Uh Repirectly across directly across from us. Oh, Mil Pond. Yeah, Mil Pond. That's what I was trying to think of. Yeah. Yeah. That's a beautiful neighborhood. How is that?

That's conservation. That's the No, I'm talking about That's the developer though. I'm talking about the developer that um that we spoke with. Oh, okay.

He did that development in Renthon near you, but he he has other subdivision that he's done in Rena. He's not he his development model is non40B, but when it came to Cranberry Heights, he had a partner, a pre a previous partner. They're not partners anymore. He brought another partner in that that project eligibility letter is four for the 51 units that are there. He came we have spoken to him like he's potentially interested to get out of doing a 40B and doing a open space subdivision but the numbers are

the numbers. So that's where I know it's one one example, but I know that's what's so tough, right? Is that if you we were changing the whole the bylaws for the entire town. It can't be based on one developer. I totally get it. I mean, you could do perform performance on bunch of different properties to kind of come up with to do it. Um which I mean at the same time, we targeted a good portion of the zoning. We don't have to hit all of those res. I think the key so cut one key point though is we're not changing the zoning, right? So no, it's this is almost like an overlay.

It really effectively it's it's the underlying district, right? So it's 30, 43, and 55. You come in like you do now in a traditional open space. you come in, present that yield plan, you got to make the math work on that underlying zoning, which is, you know, the 200 ft of frontage. If it's R2 and three, um 43,560, you know, the shape and everything, and you if you would like if you're sitting here today, they would come in, show you this is a yield plan, and you would look at it and say, all right, that lot complies with the zoning. So, all right, that's a lot that meets the underlying zoning. And then after that would be the open space would then be the layout which would be the smaller lots with a bone a bump in density. That's that's how it would work. So that yield the yield is going to be based on the the property itself in terms of the shape of it wetlands no wetlands so forth and then the underlying zoning. So that that's really the as opposed to like wholesale saying like we're going to

town meetings. What? May 13th. May third. No, no, May 14th. May 14th. Yeah. So you need a decision tonight. Um not necessarily. I don't want to meet with you again this month. I wasn't saying this month. You do meet the night before town meeting before. Um and as it stands the you know the the advisory board knows that the you know you haven't made a decision on this yet so they have no recommendation although the county is the meeting on the 11th of May but anyway don't do that to me I'm not

is May 13th by the way town meeting and you know advisory is not going to like the night before finding out what our decision is already like yeah we have we kind of already are in in this particular instance cuz they have already worked on the recommendations for the warrant. This is not police listened to the advisory board meeting the other night. They're not um if you're not convinced. I understand. Um I would rather like not take a vote on it if it'd be a negative vote than Yeah. Well, let can we do a straw man around the table? A couple questions.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Can you remind me, Rich, where the percentages are coming from? Why we're choosing this? They're based on the underlying zoning. Uh, so 10. So R1 is 20%. So I essentially just incrementally increased it based off the underline. What that why? Cuz incrementally the lot sizes go up too. So I didn't necessaroning. Yeah. So R1's 30,000 square ft. that has the lowest amount of frontage with respect to the ratio,

right? The ratio. So that's 30,000 square ft, 115 ft of frontage. No difference in frontage R two and three. They're both 200 square ft. I mean 200 ft, sorry, 200 ft of frontage, but the lot size jumps up. So from the oh so that's it's it's based on that steps based on the ratio

underlying zoning district right which is R12 3 and why are we why I can tell you that R3 was the one where the development so that was kind of the basis like to go from there. So the the largest lot district which is Crim Heights is the R R3. That one was the one to get and that only gets potentially to high 20s in terms of the overall number of lots that may again this this may not be enough actually per se. So this may not make it in terms of those numbers, but that's where but we'd rather go small than large all at once, right?

Yeah. But so that's where the numbers come from. I didn't do some like calcul ratio calculation, but you could I suppose like you know what I mean? I think what you're thinking. Yeah, that's that's what I was wondering. Thinking ratio if they were like calculated by ratio. Yeah. Um and then why are we taking out the ability to require larger setbacks than specified if it finds that such increased setbacks are required to promote the purposes of this section? It it was just more flexibility. I mean we could do again you could not take that out too. So what is what does that give flexibility to

in terms of the lot design and and the placement of the houses? But doesn't us having that ability require that increased flexibility? It does, but you're talking about the setbacks of where the house is going to be. Okay. Right. So then you could play around with the setbacks, you know, placement of the house on the lot. That that's the the intent of it. Um you could keep them the way they are, you know, not necessarily go that next level if there's, you know, depends how you look at this, your opinion of it. But if you look at weights,

weights crossing, those those home setbacks are in this range in terms of frontages and setbacks to each other where where they're placed and they're marked well they're essentially the same size. They can't be differential, but they're not it's certainly not tiny houses being built in that development. They're in the 20 800 ft² up to 3,000 square ft range. Are you certainly

Yeah, I mean I think my concerns are still the same they were when we had the virtual meeting on this. It feels like we're, you know, chasing a problem by increasing density without fully understanding what the overall impact it may have across all of the residential districts in town to maybe stop a 40B project. Um, well, well, I'm not thinking of just one actually. That's the maybe two 40B projects. And it might not even stop them. I'm going It might not stop.

Yeah. So, it might not stop them. And I I hear what's being said, but the you know everything's a balance and in return we do get open space, right? So that's not that's not a negative in my opinion. I've thought through a bunch of different ways where this could potentially have unforeseen downstream impacts and I'm just I'm not finding them in a way that is unique to just this, right? It's it's also with 40B. It's also with regular subdivision development. So I think this is we've been working towards ways to give development incentives to stay within our bylaws. So you know again I'm we can question if the numbers are correct but at the same time the potential negatives are kind of minimal and the positives are there. I I don't want to say they massively outweigh potential negatives because we don't know all the information to define the negatives, but it it it's another piece of the puzzle of keeping developers in our ecosystem for development and also at the same time getting some open space out of it. So I think I am I think I think I'm for kind of seeing it and for

not for first. So that's another topic on the agenda just a little bit further down we could talk about but that's not what this is about necessarily. the I I so one of the things it did look at is all the chapter lands in the town of Norfolk and there's still some significant land that is chapter land that

at some point potentially can come out like so part of the story in this way is is Cranberry Heights. It was chapter land twice. The town passed on it. But I also kind of think the philosophy of open space was like and used kind of philosophy shifted like when those things came those opportunities arose. The letter, it's chapter land. The letter to the town was, "We're exploring 40B." It's a tough piece of property, but when you, you know, when you add that dynamic of it's just I don't I totally can appreciate.

Yeah. I guess and Gary, I appreciate the point on the more open space that is helpful to think about like you may have a little more, you know, density on the

like in the year I've been on the the planning board the couple times we talk about zoning or we take something to town meeting like it's all you know one thing to potentially stop a 4DB or or one thing to potentially solve a problem. And I just think that, you know, really having like a holistic set of tools that we think through zoning could give us better local control over housing in the in the town. You know, I'm all for it, but I just I I just really get concerned about putting another overlay on all of the residential districts in the town without exactly understanding what the where the percentages are definitely coming from, what the downstream impacts might be. Gary, I appreciate you you thought about about that. Um, you know, I just I I can't get my head around it and I feel like I couldn't go into town meeting and sell why we should do this as Nor.

Yeah. No, I totally respect that. I mean, that is actually what I was thinking as well is from, you know, we we all do our presentations at town meeting, but all the ones that I've done, I really believed in, and this one I'm just not quite there yet. I I want to do something. I personally wouldn't care about having as a lot as big as I have. I would rather have one smaller and that that's just me. I'm sure other people would prefer not to take care of a big yard, too. But it's just for the reason that maybe this could prevent a couple of 40bs. I feel like we do need to look at it more holistically. I don't think that I could confidently stand up at town meeting and say, I wholeheartly agree this is, you know, the due diligence is done. I I just don't think it is.

So then what if Rich came in and said it was so that people could have smaller lots? And I'd still want to do more research. What do you mean by that? Just like she said, she wishes she had less to maintain. So that's why we're doing it so that people have less grass.

I'm just I'm curious if it's all just about the branding. I mean, you're concerned we're playing whack-a-ole with 40B. Um, you know, it's it's a hammer looking for a problem, right? Like we use 40B a lot, granted, but it's it's partially because one, it's it's true. It's a constant thing that we have to deal with because we're in a space where we're not allowed to kind of say no to those, right? We're we're not in a situation we can say no. Um, and we have to come up with some creative solutions in order to do this. Does this mean that this is the only way that you can develop those lots? No. It's just another way that you can develop those lots, right? Um, additionally, like it does meet the need for those folks who don't want a larger lot of land, who have a desire for a shorter driveway, a shorter walk from the street curb to their front door,

right? Like it it does provide opportunities for that. Um, but is a problem that we're trying to solve? You know, I think that's the whole thing is like,

but that's not us to decide, right? Our job as the board is to provide options to developers so that they can do what's what they want to do, what's profitable for them from that perspective. That's our job at the end of the day. We shouldn't be sitting here thinking about all of the different, you know, ways that they're going to go ahead and make money. What our job is to make sure that we're putting our best foot forward to ensure that the town that we're making these changes in is where we want our kids to grow up 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50 years down the road. And I don't see how this being an option for a developer is going to make this town worse for my kids to live in versus having multiple 40bs come in when a developer could have been like to Gary's point lazy, not want to have to go through the jurisdiction uh requirements and you know the the government requirements of submitting an eligibility letter and having to jump through all those hoops when they can make an easy 3 million just by doing you know less work.

Yeah. I just I want to be clear. I don't view our job as, you know, figuring out ways for developers to come in and build on all of the the lots in town. I I I view our job as looking at all of the development holistically, understanding and facilitating what should be developed, what should be open space, what should be kept untouched. You know, I think there's there's a holistic view to it, not necessarily just how do we facilitate this developer's work in the way that's going to maximize their profit. That's not 40b. Sure. Well, I'm it's ignoring the fact that developers are going to develop, right? Like that's the piece that you have to remember as well. And we need to provide the guardrails by which they can do that,

right? But then if you're if you're saying developers are going to develop, then you have to look at it from a developer's perspective, which is a it could be that maybe 40B is not in their wheelhouse. But really, let's be honing.

I don't see how we're motivating the behavior with this. With this, we're not. That's my point. So that that sounds like a positive for this. No, it's not. It's that this is yet another whack-a-ole, I think. Right. Like I think it's reactive. We're trying to just like we did with extending the overlay district for MBTA to avoid a 40B. We're constantly working. Well, that wasn't reactive. We had But that was also surgical. That wasn't over the whole residential zoning. No, it was for it was for a developer to avoid a 40B. That was literally It was also a state requirement. What was the MBTA overlay? No. No. Did that for funding?

Of course, we had to do it. We didn't have to do it for funding. We had to do it. We had to come up with a plan and then let the town decide the overlay district. Yes. But then we went back again and said we want to extend this overlay district to a boy 40B. Right. Whereas I think if we looked at

like when I do plans holistically like in this case I would look at the entire town, right? and look at like what properties do we have and you know which ones could we actually save if they came up for first right of refusal and what areas do we want to develop in and what do we want that density to look like because when we make decisions like this where we're just doing it as like whack-a-ole I think this is how a lot of people in Norfol will say I don't want to be Franklin right and Franklin grew very fast

right I feel like that's what happens if you don't look at it holistically and you just make one tiny decision at a which is what we're afforded based on one the fact that we're a board of volunteers. Two, the fact that we meet pretty much on a monthly basis and three that the continuity on the board up until now has been, you know, not very consistent to be honest, but we're still not looking at the town holistically. We're not that those are the reasons why is what I'm trying to argue, right? Like can't both things be true? C can't we can't we make decisions based off of what we're seeing right now? and and again this is probably a good challenge for us as a board come up with the proactive

to to a little bit of defense we do have the master plan we try to align everything the master plan so we're not out of bounds here with this or anything that we've done so far but you know to Dan's bigger point like what like do we should we have a mission statement for like what is our one year threeear 5year goal for planning outlook or potential zone zoning change outlook like what is the what is the long-term vision and plan that this board whichever the membership is is going to drive to achieve for the town like this doesn't in my opinion this doesn't take away this does not take away from that but we shouldn't ignore that bigger holistic picture

yeah I completely 100% agree and it's a balance of looking at what comes in front of us from a regular you know keep the lights on perspective of what our responsibilities are to the town. And then with regards to proactive planning, right? Like we've got objectively 12 meetings a year with a couple sprinkled in here and there when we have to spend a little additional time. How do we make the best of those 12 meetings a year? How do we actually build a a plan in order to, you know, identify that? That's that would be in addition to the master plan. And so to your point, yes, you know, it makes sense. That's a great thing for us to investigate. I don't know how we're going to, you know, look to attack that at this point in time. I guess my request is how do we circle back to this decision now and how do we move forward? Is this something that we want to entertain for the town meeting on the 13th or is this something that we want to IP for now?

I I already said I'd vote yes. I, you know, I I don't want to discount the need for and if we want a subcommittee, I'm more than happy to join it. You know, the the bigger picture stuff, which we can definitely get better at to Dan's point and Melissa's point, but um unless somebody has an actual negative for this, I I think I would vote yes. I I guess I just I don't think it's solving the problem that it was intended to solve or I don't have proof that it is or that it will. And so I don't know why we're going to take up time at town meeting to ask for yet another zoning change that we don't know will solve the problem so that we can then come back to them again with a revision which we already have to do for things that have already been done which was market conditions. That's not you know but I just I would prefer to do that the least amount of times possible. So I guess how do we define what it is that needs to be done before we feel comfortable

the I mean for me it's the same thing that I said before is I think that look at the land that could be developed work with the developers that we already know that already come in here to meet with us or come to give us like you know conceptual plans which has the relationships with them work with them or I mean I will if you know I mean I don't have any financial interest in their businesses They're not my family members. It's not a conflict of any kind. I mean, I'd be happy to do it, too. I just think um there's just this is not enough detail. Like what I put together is not enough detail. It I don't think it solves a problem from what I've seen. So, I don't know why we're going to spend our time not solving a problem when we have lots of problems we could solve. Dan, any final comments?

No. I mean, I think the only thing I'd say is, you know, a lot of the objection I have I could I could live with. I just still can't get fully comfortable with um ruling out any downstream impacts. That's kind of what unintended consequence type things.

Yep. Well, so my opinion, which I haven't provided yet, um I don't feel like this is defensible either way, right? Like I feel like I see I see it for developers to proceed in a way that we are comfortable with. That's that's what I see this as. I see this as a paved path to allow us to get something that does benefit us in a couple of different ways. But I don't know how to communicate to the town the net benefit and I don't know how to argue out the possible ramifications that we don't understand at this point in time. So I would move that we IP this for the time being until we all feel comfortable moving it forward. I as well could go either way on it. I'm more on the positive side because a path yeah a path of you know a paved path is is more comfortable for me right and I don't see the negative but the fact that I don't see the negative is also somewhat uncomfortable

yeah understood yeah I um I think it's a path with a gate that and the gate is a special permit and I don't think it's a permanent change and I I think you're in total control of it. If something went wrong, you just disable it. So, and I think that's fine. Yeah, I think we can communicate that. But I think the counterargument is then why do we do this? What's the point?

To have a potential tool to convince some developers on some parcels uh to go to open space. So, I don't see anything negative to it at all. I think it's um I think you make all valid they're all valid points. I think if um I want to there's two other topics on tonight's agenda which are related to it somewhat right in terms of the big picture. Um, so I think it makes sense to IP, you know, work on it some more. Um, get some other or at least flush it out. Can we just appreciate for a second that this is the Garry's versus everybody else?

I was going to say the Gary's got one vote. Yeah, I like them. Well, hold on. Or that we can we can have Well, does it sound like there's It doesn't sound Well, all right. I don't want to jump in, but I just wanted to make the joke. So, I appreciate it. Hold on, Chris. Gary. It's not Gary, unfortunately. Um, I'm curious to hear what you want to say, but since it's not related to the public hearing completely, we should probably close this or possibly continue it to another meeting later on in this month so that we can finally make a final decision on this based on what we hear from you after this. Have we asked for any public comment yet?

Not yet. Good call. Um, I mean, now you're in Well, you're up until May now, so I I don't know if we're Well, I mean, it's what, two weeks to post a notice. Zoom meeting. Yeah. I mean, you could have a if you want to do another meeting on the topic, you have a special meeting, right? That that was what I was proposing. All right. So, that can be continue it to

Yeah. See? Yeah. You just have to agree on a date and time. And so that's the the question now. Are we comfortable pushing this possibly meeting again in 2 weeks? Maybe we just meet so that we vote against it and and we're done and we close the public hearing. I don't know. I don't know that we'd have answers to questions that we have in the next couple weeks. Yeah. I don't think anything I mean I don't know if anybody has time to go work with developers for two weeks straight, you know. Is that the only path for you?

If we're looking on clarification of the numbers, I I find it very hard to to think that we would get the numbers in 4 weeks. Sure. No, I don't think you're going to get the numbers that you're going to There's just too many variables, right? So every time you like Yeah. It's just like you literally have to just do an outlay of like what lots are available and it's Yeah, it's it's like MBTA all over again. Yeah, it's a lot of work. Okay, Rich. Rich did this this had no origin other than yourself? This was just your own thoughts at the time. Did it come other towns doing it? I guess no that I'm aware of. It's probably more a pioneer, but sometimes being a pioneer is not so good. Well, you know, you go to those

Yeah. no

planner meetings once a year with all the other guys. Well, I think I think in terms of the tools that are available that we have and then the other tools that we need to develop in relation to the so it's kind of like I think it makes sense to either like IP it or u have another meeting and then whatever. Uh cuz if this gets IP, I don't want to lose sight of the bigger picture question that Dan and Melissa and Chris are raising here where like like what is the like like what what like what is the point in time we stop coming with band-aids and come with a big like hey everybody this is going to be the favorite night of your life because we have a three-hour presentation for holistic

zoning bylaw changes. That's wild. Okay. So you guys are going to like blow so many minds when that happens. It's going to have to be in an air conditioned location. So to be to be uh I guess I would say pragmatic and realistic to you, that's in feasible when we talk about this topic. You're not going to you're not going to solve all the we're going to we're going to generate that's my concern. Right. You're not going to solve all these problems per se, right? We're not trying to do that. I don't think I mean

No, I I I agree. you're not going to solve all the problems, but there's not a scenario where it's okay, here's a suite of three or four, you know, zoning updates that we think would I think if you as a body if you wanted to have a suite of changes and and sell it and then talk to, you know, like everybody's in line all in that line of people that you got to go to, right? Advisory, we're going to have a like we're going to do the suite of changes. We're going to go to town meeting and we're not going to we're not want to hear about oh zony again like everybody's going to like get in line with a an effort to do that. That makes total sense.

No, totally. I mean, if that's the way that like no offense to advisory, but like it shouldn't be like, okay, we're going to take it little piece by piece cuz we're annoyed every time you guys bring up zoning. Like, no. Advisory wants a thought. That's why I was a little confused. They keep breaking it apart because a couple of reasons. it's easier for us when given limited time to focus on it, which makes it easier for us to explain and sell it. Um, and it's just easier for us to do that iterative style of change and it's worked well for us.

Um, that said, like we did part one or phase one of signs and we haven't had the time to get back to the rest of it. So, I mean, there's a whole host of things from three or four years ago that I had given Rich as a list of things that I wanted to go back to. Uh, we haven't touched. So, I don't even know if you still have that journal anymore.

But you know what though, we do have an opportunity because the master plan, we're working on the implementation plan, right? Which will at this we'll do an update next month and have it, you know, ticked and tied and reviewed. But I think that's the opportunity potentially, right? Cuz we already worked through all of that. We have the high level like we have the housing production plan through Susan and the, you know, the affordable housing trust. We have all the pieces. I feel like the like housing and I know what you're going to talk about like 40 Y and things like that. That's like kind of the missing piece. Like we have to figure out what we're going to focus on for housing that isn't in the affordable housing trust, right? Cuz they she Susan has a solid plan. She's good. Um but like we don't for just for starter homes that

you know or step down homes because if you have assets, you can't you're not going to qualify for an affordable. So, how do we how do we fit in the the missing middle into our plan? But I think we kind of have pieces that can pull together to make a plan already with the master plan, with Sue's plan. You know, it's like I feel like this is the missing piece is like housing that isn't a 3500 square foot colonial. So, there is Right. So, we'll talk about 40 wide just shortly. Right. So, let me open up questions to the audience. Um, let's get us out of this public hearing and then we can move on to other more fun stuff.

Any questions from the audience? Anybody have any comments? All right. Hearing none. We're going to close it. I'm looking for a motion to close. You okay with us? Yeah. All right. to close the public hearing to discuss the proposed zoning bylaw amendments for the 51326 annual town meeting that was continued from March 25th, 2026. So move. Do I have a second? Second. All those in favor? All those opposed? All right. The hearing's closed. Can we have the fan though? Yeah, it got that wind stopped and uh got pretty warm. Thanks. Open this. Are you going to

Thank you. Take a motion to I will dramatic pause. Oh, dramatic pause. Sorry, I got distracted. All right. Uh looking for a motion to um indefinitely propo postpone the bylaw amendment for 310-8.2 open space preservation. So, do I have a second? All those in favor? I. All those opposed? Nay. Okay. What's your name? Gary. Gary. Sullivan. Thank you for the effort, Rich. It's not a way to get on paper like that.

I think we'll end up tweaking what he's already done. Like that's the thing. It's like it's I just want to be able to research it more. Yeah. I'm just I'm conscious by the limited time that we have to make an impact in general, right? Like our time on Earth is short. Period. Right. Like our time on the board is even shorter than that. Our, you know, we're on threeear cycles to begin with. Out of those 3 years, you've got what, 36 meetings guaranteed. Wait, do you just work in meetings? You don't you don't meet with Rich. That's when we're allowed to all have a conversation. Oh, yeah. Collectively to be able to move things forward, right? Sure. Right.

So, you know. All right. We do have some. All right. 7 Hill Street or do you want to go out of order? I do want to go out of order if we don't mind. Uh so 124 Main Street. All right. 124 Main Street. Informal discussion regarding the proposed training facility. This is 124 is Yeah. Yeah. Right behind us. Uh where the tracks are. Yeah. All right. How are you? Good. Introduce yourself.

My name is Ben Brashad. I'm a strength and conditioning coach in the area and I'm looking to get a sports performance gym open um back behind Dunkin Donuts at 124 Maine. Um a little bit about how the business would run. It would be a appointmentbased uh facility. Um so we would be doing a little bit of adult um personal training in the morning and small group training. Um mainly between the hours of like 6:30 to 10:00 a.m. Um all groups would be staggered. So there would be a 15-minute maybe a 30-minute break before the next group started. Um which will help with uh the traffic accommodation. Um my bulk of my business would be in the evenings um afternoons and evenings. So 3:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m. maybe occasionally uh 8:00 p.m. too some of those later nights. And that would be the same kind of setup. It would be appointment based. a weekly schedule would go out and um parents can sign their kids up uh middle school, high school, college athletes to um jump into a high school group maybe at 3:15, a middle school group maybe at 4:30 and uh that kind of setup going uh forward. So, I've just been talking with Rich about um what type of plan I need to have in place for the next meeting. Um, and he's just been kind of helping me kind of go through the parking situation and I wanted to kind of get up here informally and introduce myself and figure out what exactly I need to put uh before you guys. Um, Rich, if you want to help me.

Sure. I think do if you don't mind the the determination first. So, um, so Ben did apply for the determination of applicability and, um, so the positive news is that you see the use category that we have that was part of the B1 zoning change that happened a few years ago. Congrats. Uh, so that thank you for that work that you did. Um, just interesting enough within the same determination talking to the building commissioner on my list, his list is the uses that we need to update because there's Huh.

Didn't we just update uses? Oh, we he's got a he's got a big list. Let's just say that. Who's this? Stay tuned. Building building commissioner. Building and he's he has valid reasoning for So did the last one. It's a comprehensive review. I will say from what I what I've seen I think it was I know I'd like them all at once so that we can just do this one time. Okay. And have a solid.

So I want you to so anyway just that's kind of an aside but anyway so um you want to go yeah go back to that please the the aerial image. So just to familiarize yourself we have a near map of of the property that we're talking about. So this property is it predates uh in terms of having a site plan

on record. Um so as part of the the site plan review bylaw, you need they they need to put a site plan on record to be able to to facilitate Ben going into that property. So, what we discussed was um really modeling after I don't know if everybody was on the board necessarily, but I do have the plan for 104 Pond Street, which is the U where the auto shop is, and they have car sales there.

That happened a few years ago. But essentially, they had no sight plan either when they went into that property, and they had to create a a site plan. So essentially what we're talking about is uh the property owner who purchased the property has a surveyor who can put together essentially I'll call it existing conditions plan more or less um which would have a parking table on it which would show the parking that Ben needs for his use and then it's um retail next door I think right it's like a small office small office. I think there's 10 employees or 12 employees.

So, we use So, this is kind of a template to use where it it it checks the box in terms of a site plan and put on record. Ben is not nor the property is proposing any site changes essentially in terms of like

it's a use change. The changes will happen would be striping the part in the previous image. It's not it's not striped. That's one thing. Then we need to put a handicap locker spot in. That would be part of it and then a ramp to get into the the space in terms of like on the ground changes to it. Um but beyond that, it's essentially what's out there and then really back into the number so that what's paved on the ground today would be striped out and come up with a number that number which is roughly I think you Ben went out there did a little good. We're talking maybe

22 with 21 in a handicap spot.

The MBTA parking lot and that right away now you Oh, so on the way in the back. Yeah. Use the mouse arrow and show me. Yeah. Back here. No, just a little bit to the right.

Yeah. So, what we kind of talked about is that's a right away. I don't really know the the dynamics of whether they're can legally park there or not. So, to kind of keep things simple, parking people are parking there and then potential clients for Ben would be coming from the commuter commuter trains. so they could park there. This work backwards. So essentially approve a parking plan for him to get into that space. It will require a special permit most likely because to get the number down in terms of required parking. Ben, as you explained his use, is kind of it's specialized. So there's not a high occupant in terms of people there all at once. So, and the non-simultaneous cuz if you look there on the weekend that other building is not occupied or even in the evening. So, there's a lot of sharing going on but essentially is if the board is open to a plan that's models after pawn street which we just showed you briefly. Ben would have to come back for site plan modification with that plan request a parking reduction. it would limit the occupancy, you know, I mean, how many people can operate in terms of for his business and bring this business to the town center. So, that's the

imagine if we said no and it's directly next to the most massive parking lot that we have in the whole town. And if this client show up after around 1:30ish after the parking meter truck has gone by, it's free. I remember that. So, I don't know how I know that yet. So to legitimize it per se that we can within the the boundaries of the bylaw that's that's the concept. Yeah. Same. It's very flexible I think with between the business next door you know not being open at night weekends parking lot across the street.

Yeah. And by the time he comes back Gary's going to be off into retirement. I've been thinking about it. You you won't be here. Um, but there'll be a new member who's in the audience, so she's kind of learning about this already. Um, so that's a nice little There's only one person out there. It's a nice little a nice little primer what's coming ahead. But basically, that's that. So, and I didn't want to, again, being a small business, if if this had no legs, I didn't want to have him pay somebody to put together a plan and come before you and get blown up. Yeah. No, this is a better way to do it.

All over. Oh, things happen. Things happen in life. I don't want trying to be I I appreciate that on his behalf. I appreciate it big time. Small business owners. So that's why So that's the pitch. So it seems within reason. It seems within reason. Yeah. I mean, my only concerns are the ones that the property owner has to ensure that he's mitigating for the tenant with regards to the previous use. Right. From like an environmental perspective. Um, I mean, in terms of like chemicals or whatever, possible spilled oil, possible spilled any of that specialist already through there before buying it and had someone do a good cleaning and everything. Um, but I can get confirmation on that, too. That's more for you and your clientele as opposed to me.

Kids being in there. No, I realized that. I mentioned that right when I saw it. Yeah. So, that's the that's my That's the concept. That's the plan. Okay. I like the concept and I like the location for the concept. All right. Well, you throw out a smoothie bar. from there. Give us a group class. Let me get open first, then I'll work on the So, in terms of the special permit for waving the parking, will that be something I need to apply for before coming back? It'll be all incorporated in one application and we can chat about that. Yeah, we'll chat about that for sure. Awesome. Yep. Yep.

No, I think you pretty much covered everything. I'm similar to Dave and Wolfpack Wolfpack baseball where um I don't think I'm going to need that 62 number or even be anywhere close to that. And so even chatting with the other tenant on the um other side of the building, I don't think we're going to run into a whole lot of issues in terms of um traffic back there. So I'm hoping we can make it work. Great. I bet you will actually have people coming straight from the train. I I have a bunch of clients who train with me already who are uh who just go to Walpole and they're like, "Oh, 100%. I'm just going to park here and Yeah. and go right into the city. So, it'll work out nicely, I think. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. That's pretty exciting, huh? It is exciting. Awesome. All right. All right. Well, wish you the best.

Thank you. Thank you for your work with the zoning. I appreciate that. Making it a little easier on me. It was all me. It was all you. The only about 13 other people. You're the only one in the room. Thank you so much. Thank you guys. All right. So then we go to the top of the order which is well hold on. We also uh heard quickly from um Melissa what we're not hearing a master plan update. We have additional cycles that need to be done before we get an update there. So that's now we can go to the top 7 mil street. So everything is all set. We just need to have you vote to release the performance bond. How much was that?

Hold on. I have that right here. I think it's 200. $200,931. All right. And our uh DPW director is all set is good. Wasn't DPW? No, no, this is just He started yesterday, I believe. He signed off. Glad. So, he's just got a point. Now, what was uh what was remaining on this one? Huh? What was remaining on this one? Pawnville Heights. I think it's done. Uh I think everything's done.

Everything's been done, right? But what was the last things we were waiting on? actually was the the snow to melt to get out there to verify verify it. Yeah, we had the bill as plan. We had a months ago. Okay. So, looking for a motion to approve uh the release of the performance bond for 7 Hill Street, Ponville Heights. Do I have a second? Second. All those in favor? I. All those opposed? Hearing? None. Motion's passed. All right, Dan. Uh let's do some meeting minutes. I forgot about those. How could you? All right. Um I think the the meeting minutes for March 25th, 2026 have been re distributed for review. Any comments, questions? Nope.

Take a motion to approve. So move. Second. Second. All in favor of approving the March 25th, 2026 meeting minutes, say I. Any opposed? Great. All right. Um so Rich, before you get to your town planner updates, Allerie, is it okay if I put you on the spot? Sure. All right, Miss British, would you like to come up, introduce yourself, and uh tell us a little bit about why you're here? Really? Didn't expect that. What do you want to know? We're just going to interview at NCPD.

Uh running for planning board. Um, I own a small business in town, which is not at all relevant to what happens on this board, but um, I've been in town for 9 years, I think. Prior to starting my small business, I was a wetland scientist for 15 years. So, I've worked private sector um, all across the board, like little CVS projects, big utility transmission line projects with like union linemen screaming at me. Uh, and then transitioned to be the conservation agent in the town of Sherbornne. So yeah, I mean worked handinhand with planning and Sherborn and I think my skill set will transition nicely. I can read plans so that's a plus. Awesome. Absolutely.

Awesome. We do some work with uh you know trying to enable small businesses, you know, we tackled the sign thing. So there's there's definitely some overlap there. Yeah. Yep. I know a lot of the small businesses in town. So awesome. Looking forward to having you on the board. Um, when's the election again? May 5th. Mayo. Thank you. Everybody, make sure you get out there, vote, have a margarita. All right. Thank you so much. Thank you. All right. Rich, any town planner updates? Yes. Would you like to share?

I would. Yes. So um couple so the first one is that Rob Gary town administrator talked about re reinstituting the zoning bylaw study committee which was um it hasn't been done for quite some period of time. It was uh can't chat GPT do that? I was totally thinking about that. What's that? review zoning bylaws. It can, but it doesn't doesn't replace uh doesn't replace the humans yet yet. I mean, I don't know. I I've been spending a lot of time with his friend Claude, and both of them are Oh, yeah. pretty amazing.

Pretty amazing. I haven't done work in months. Sorry. Who are you talking about? Claude using Claude. AI. Oh, he hangs out with Gemini all the time. Oh, really? Continue. It's an AI joke. I'll show my age, but we're here all night.

Yeah. All right. Um, so anyway, he talked about re well bringing back the zoning bylaw study committee, which I said that it probably has some merit, but I thought we could think about in terms of doing a pilot, see if it's effective or not because we had, you know, this board is the really the author of the zillion bylaw changes. So um you know it would there' be a couple members of planning board on it wouldn't be the whole board be some other other so the previous committee had the uh well the town planner the building commissioner there was a select board member a member of the board of health ava member

what's the charter what what is it that they're trying to do I haven't heard of or you haven't heard of No, Zusia. It's really just kind of almost like a steering committee to run zoning bylaw changes through as they come up. So, this would be an addition to the advisory board. Yeah. Well,

so we would generate and draft them and then it would go to this. No, the so for instance, sorry, they would generate and draft them and then come to us. Yeah, they would come to Yeah. So working through zone bylaw changes and then present them to the board and that's and then we sign off and decide if we want to move them forward. Yeah. Okay. So it kind of takes some of the weight off of your shoulders

a little bit. Yeah. But but how do you feel about that? Um if it's if you recall back I just bear with me when we did the B1 changes we we had a committee and then it just stalled out. There was no there was no actual really zoning bylaw changes and then we had to bring it back to the board to really move it forward to push it through. So if I guess if they push thing like work through and bring zoning to the board then it could work well right um kind of vet things out. So the similar thing we just were working on earlier the

the open space pilot get some other eyes on it and perspectives on it and it could include I mean I ideally I would love to have citizens on it that are more involved with the development community like doing development to get their perspective on it. So from the private sector, the previous they did have they did have citizens on it, but they weren't they didn't have a development background. So that's kind of the somewhat a little bit of the missing piece I feel like in some of the stuff that we work on. Yeah. To kind of, you know, it's a sounding board for the changes.

So I I kind of see this as solving two things. One, this is a bandwidth solve for you. two, this kind of allows us an opportunity to have somebody who's devoted to building that larger plan of things that need to get taken care of in order to move a single thing forward, right? Um, and through various bylaw changes to, you know, thwart, let's say, 40bs or whatever, right? So, like I see it as a net positive from that perspective. My concern is exactly what you're saying from a bandwidth perspective. Are they going to stall out? Are they going to be attacking things kind of like a a fly swatter method where they see a problem, they try and solve that or are they come to us with a plan, right? Like so your approach with a pilot is is ideal, but taking it further and having them come to us with a plan for how to address a would be ideal. So go through the bylaws, have them identify a problem that they're trying to solve within that that would require multiple bylaws to be updated in order to address would be my recommendation and my request. If we're not doing it in that perspective, then I don't know that it's necessarily going to be worth it because otherwise we're just doing the same thing that we're doing with another layer of folks in it.

Mr. Chair, if I may,

Mr. Vice Chair, please. the um to add to what you're saying, I think the right people need to be in place for that to be effective. Um, additionally, I want to stay optimistic on it and it's been 12 years since the last committee. And unless I'm misremembering a lot, nothing much came out of that one. At least nothing holistic. It was kind of like oneoffs. Um, so to Chris's bigger point, what problem are they going to try to solve? What's the charge slash mission? Like, and and the right people have to be in place to actually pull that off. And it's a ton of work. Like town government study committee, I was on that. That's small beans compared to zoning bylaw changes. That was a ton of work. That's a lot of research. That's a lot of reaching out to people to get information. So if we can get the right people in place that could be super effective. I mean I I would almost propose that if you wanted to have so building commissioner for sure if Rob wanted you know in terms of

I I think this is Robin. So let Rob figure out who he wants to staff it how he wants to propose it. Let him take the the footwork. Well, what I was going to propose is that if a couple planning boards, so not necessarily include all the other folks that were on it before and maybe if you get some citizens like this really essentially focused around the planning board more or less populate it. I'm not as concerned about having planning board members on it because ultimately it's coming to us as at at some point, right? But I am first. I am too. Can you imagine? But I don't want to plan his thing, right? Ideally, what I want to do is I want us to understand what his idea. You want to hear more.

I want to know what his proposal is. How is he going to solve it? And my response back to him is these are the things that I want to see presented in front of us before we say yes, move forward. So that part of it is who's making up the committee? Yep. Um how what problem it is that you're trying to solve? How are you going to solve it? And what what's the timeline you're going to adhere to? Totally. Y yeah. What's what's in scope? What's out of scope? Yeah. You know, then we also have the master plan kind of subcommittees where we're going to be just not having the committee at first and just getting started, but that's going to be us as well. So, there's like a lot of things that are

and when we have that him or him and them come to us with that plan, we can say, "Well, we don't agree with X, Y, or Z. Make a modification here." And then we're we're green. We'll move forward. I mean, that's that's the way I think we approach it. But I don't want to knock or drive him in a certain direction without knowing what he was thinking in the first place. Yeah, for sure. But I do have some requirements that I want to loosely bound this by.

Oh, that totally makes sense. All right, we'll get back to you on that. Um, so the solar bio will need to be updated because there is um the whole DOEA regulations are coming out. There's the oversight board for larger scale projects. So, we will have to make some changes, but just going through the recent experience with uh the solar, there's probably things we need to take a look at to make some changes to. Um, so that that is a bylaw, but we did a we did participate in a grant with MAPC for multiple towns. So, that I'm waiting to hear back, but that's something that should happen later this summer. I just want to give you a heads up. So basically they'll fund the research that goes into identifying what D is saying, how we can adhere to it, all of that stuff like what we

it'll be like a clearing house for other municipalities to be able if they want to adapt bylaw changes. So we're one there's a b bunch of towns and a swap area but that's going to happen later. I I'll get I'll give you the update when that grant will h um find out yeah when the money is but that is in the works right now. Um the other so two housing related Yeah. two housing related one is is the 40 Y. Yeah.

Which is the you know the the small starter homes. I would like us to move forward pursuing that and investigating it. MAPC is doing a regional housing study right now which that is one of the topics of discussion in it to to work with communities to adopt that. So I think that's that's that kind of small starter home fit that we talked about. Um there is there's an affordable component to it but it also goes beyond what is captured under 40B. So, you know, fam families above 80 to 100% median income. I think it's actually 110 actually. What did I put in there? I should double check. I think it's 110.

Is this going to restrict assets? Rich, is it similar of 40R like um in in the sense that towns get incentive payments? It's a carrot, not a stick.

Yeah. No, it is a car. It is a carrot. Um, so when you create the district based on potential density, there's a one-time payment and then per unit produced, there's a $3,000 incentive payment. I think happens at the occupancy permit. No, the difference here is that it's outside of the subsidized housing income restrictions. It's a different formula. So, it's not the asset limitation. So you can depends how you look at you look at it holistically. If you want to help families that are, you know, from 80 on up, this program does it and you're just not going to get credit in terms of SHI.

So my question, uh, when are we going to get a presentation that kind of goes through the soup to nuts? Um, I I think we probably should soup to nuts. Um, we probably could do maybe Well, it depends on you when you want to. We can go through it. I don't think you want to go through it tonight, but No, not tonight. We can put it on the agenda if you want. Let's do it next uh next month. Okay. Excellent.

And then somewhat related to it is a TDR bylaw. So transfer development right that that is really a a good you know preservation and then transfer development to a concrate area. So that is a really powerful land used to. I will say though, having done this quite a long time ago, there's really got to be a strong support for it. And when it comes time, you're the the board's behind the idea of like increase in density in one place to send it somewhere else because you got to make them econom it's an e economic question, right?

What do you mean to send it somewhere else? So essentially if you can build 10 lots over here in a area which is designated a preservation area you send them to the development area. So you increase the density there. But when I did this a long time ago had the bylaw we had ideal chapter land on the Taton River. I go to reim for examp this is where I started in the late 20s and they just could not send it like we love the preservation but we don't know where we want to send that development. So it it would be a little bit different than that one because it would be designated districts. We didn't designate because that's that's the lift is where you're sending it to go to town meeting and say folks I'm preserving over here you might be in this part of the map but you folks over here you're getting it.

Yeah. I don't know that we're but again community that would be amenable to that. Oh yeah. Well that's the holistic tool that's out there. So those are the things. So that's kind of real conversation I feel like with the public. We do have to at least talk about it. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. Yeah. So that's again that's so those I I think I'm not saying that we're necessarily going to don't have a time frame, but I think we need to start it and if there's interest to start I can then apply for grants to kind of help like you know analyze it more to try to see if it's feasible or not. Did we ever do a follow-up discussion on 40R after the B1 stuff? I don't recall. No.

No. We had a very high level discussion as a possibil for um the hospital site, right? And after that it was over. Well, so 40R in the center town really essentially and more or less what you voted to recommend at the

Yeah. Right. probably hearing for the people changes without the but so those are two so those are and then the last one thinking of town center is what's that so tdr is in the master plan by the way just f it's in there um and then the other one is the business improvement district so we are potentially going to realize some development in town so if there's a time when you want to consider doing bid. Now's the time to be thinking about it because then you can capture that that value that could be directed to the center of town for a variety of different things.

Say more. So for instance, some of the programming that happens in the center of town can be partially funded with the tax money that is captured from Say more about the earlier part. What's that? If there's a bid that we want to make, now is the time. Well, that a little bit establish.

Sorry. So, the zoning got recommended. It's going to town meeting. Let's see if it gets approved. PY is going to propose a project. Multi-million dollar development there, unlock some other properties, get developed and redeveloped. So, It's it it's kind of like the ground floor opportunity to maybe do it. It's a lot of work in terms of the people have to opt in. So there's a lot of it's just it is an action item on the planning board. I'm just thinking about in terms of when other towns have imple you know put a bid forwards as

Exactly. Not during so you can count them. Correct. So that's the Can we have like a couple minutes presentation on that next uh meeting or do you need more time? We could a little bit more on it next and that's uh and kind of wrap. Oh, well actually should say one last thing. So, you did in the share drive, there's a the building commissioner has a a laundry list of things that he would like to see addressed in the zoning bylaws. Um, and so we need to kind of work towards addressing that. And the one which we kind of already knew this is revising the site plan approval bylaw itself.

Yeah. You know, deal put it on the right letter head if we can review it. Yeah. So um so that's it for this. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Any other updates? Anyone on the board?

This is your last meeting? No, I have one more. You have two more? One more. One more. Two more. One more. Two more after this. Yeah. June 9th will be the last. Yeah. Right. No. No. Yeah. May 12th will be your last one. Yeah. You're done. What are you talking about? I'm done now. This is it. Well, the election's on the 12th. No, that's it. Oh, yeah. So, this is Oh my god. No. Nothing. Cake or nothing? What the heck? It's all right. So, you know, Gary, amazing. We do have a We do have Yeah. Yeah. You can be associate for a day next time and we can bring you a cake.

I can uh Yeah. Um I'll just move over one chair. It'll all be good. So there is the next chair opening that's has not been filled. I don't want to do that. He wants to go down to where Matt, right? Like you don't want to I do that anyway. Yeah. But well, thank you again for serving on the board. All I did was fill in for Chad for a while.

Yeah. But you you came back under your own valition as an associate for some time and then you filled filled the Jets seat for quite some time and uh the the knowledge that you have from your years on the board prior when I first joined you were on the board um and you showed me how to be the clerk and and do all of those things. You know, I'm really grateful. Appreciate it. Thank you. Good. I'll see you every day anyway for your walks. You probably wish you didn't see me in the Y that day, but I'm remembering that. Yeah, the other Y. I checked the parking lots now. Check the parking lot. But all right. Well, thank you again.

I appreciate it. Thank you. Um looking for a motion to move. Do I have a second? Second. All those in favor? I. All those opposed. All right. Hearing none. Thank you very much. Have a good night.