City Council - Regular Meeting

for its one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. [clears throat] All right. Um, clerk will note all council members are present. Uh, for ceremonies and appointments, we have assignment of Mayor Westland to Industrial Development Corporation seat number two and assigning seat numbers to the other board members. You have a a summary for it or should we just go to motion?

Um, we can just go with a motion. At the May council meeting, we had actually appointed Jerry Lion and Len Crosby to the board. We did not give them seat numbers. The seats are varying on the years when they expire. So, we needed to assign seat numbers. And then the mayor has traditionally been the other seat. So, which seat numbers are being proposed to be assigned to who? So, Mayor Weslin is in seat number one. Len Crosby's in seat number one. And sorry, Mayor Wesland is in seat number two. Len Crosby's in seat number one. And Jerry Lion is in seat number three.

I move to approve the appointment of Mayor Wesland to the Industrial Development Corporation and assigning seat numbers to other board members as presented. Second. Motion in a second. Further discussion. Roll call, please. Sigler. I Luca I Mallaloy I Stigleer I Mosby I motion passes. Thank you. Uh any amendments to the agenda tonight? We have none. Declarations of conflict, exparte contacts and site visits. Seeing none, um please present the consent calendar.

Item A is minutes from the February 3rd, 2026 city council meeting. Item B is minutes from the February 5th, 2026 city council [clears throat] workshop. Item C is payables from February 4th through February 18th, 2026. And item D is authorization to demolish the Corbin house. Questions on the consent calendar.

I have questions about item D, if I may. Um, is this the same house that maybe 18 months ago we got emails from the resident at the time about their interactions with the city? Can I just give you all three of my questions? Sure. Okay, great. And then how long has it been vacant for? And are the neighbors on Corbin Road aware of the work that we're going to do? So, first question is yes, it's the same house. Okay. Um, second question I believe so we gave him 6 months. Um, and I think that ended in the spring of 2025. So, okay. A little less than a year.

Um, and then lastly, are they aware of like the dog park that's coming? Is that or just the demo of the house like the because that's a pretty narrow street with that turn in it. And I know that residents that live on that street have already come to the city about I know that it's not a city street, but we kind of drive traffic because we have the park at the end um about their concerns there. So, I was just curious if we have made them aware that we're going to start like some significant construction or can we make them aware? We haven't. Um it's generally quite a long process going through the permitting with the county. So, that's kind of why we're getting started with it now. Um but that's certainly something we can do. Okay, great. Thank you.

Okay. And did you have a correction on the minutes? Uh, I think that's already that's already been dealt with. Okay. Further questions on the consent calendar. I would move to approve the consent calendar as presented. Second. Motion in a second. Further discussion. Roll call, please. PL. I. Luca, I. Malloy. I. Sigler. I. Mosby. I. Ziggler. I.

Motion passes. Thank you. Um, next is public hearings. We have none of those tonight. Returning ordinances, unfinished business, uh, unfinished business. First item up is the CMGC contract with Apollo, Inc. for pre-construction services at the water reclamation facility. Good evening, Mr. Mayor, members of the council, Andrew Arbini, projects division manager in public works. Uh the agenda item this evening is a contract with Apollo Inc. as part of the larger solids improvement project. Uh so council approval this evening would bring a construction manager, general contractor on board into the design process. Uh if you are hearing about this project for the first time, I've included some project background. I'll spend a little bit of time just providing uh where we where we've been and where we are to date. [clears throat] Um, of course, I will expand on the construction manager general contractor method uh CMGC as it's termed and then specifically how it applies to Apollo Inc. in this project. Um, I also have included a contract summary um as well as a project estimate, planning level estimate and then I'll wrap up with a project schedule and the next steps. So project background uh this the elements of the solids improvement project were identified originally in the 2013 facility study. Uh prior to 2024 the city contracted with JB engineers to provide an update to that study. Uh so that included some refinement to what the plan is for the 5 10 20 year time frame. Uh following the uh recent completion of the tertiary treatment project uh we have seen an increase of solids production. That was not a surprise. We knew that would occur. However, that's been able to that increase in solids production has helped

inform the scope of the solids improvement project. Uh, stepping to the side a second just to talk on what solids treatment actually is. So, this is referring to uh the the materials in the water that get removed as part of the treatment process as it moves through the plant. The deatering phase is the last stage of treatment at the facility. And when we're talking about removing the water, that's really done in two processes. Uh thickening where there's a coagulant added to aid in the second process which is dewatering. Uh so between those two uh those are the two key processes in uh the dewatering phase. And then the deatering occurs primarily for economic handling of the bioolids. This project really comprises two sub projects. project one or phase one and then project two and phase two. I know um in previous uh presentations I've talked on this a few times since um we started design in in July. Project one prioritizes the uh purchase of a second dewatering unit at the at the facility. So currently um the we don't have the redundancy we wish we would have. So purchasing this the second unit puts that on order. it's about a one-year lead time and gets that that unit ordered. The second project uh will construct the balance of the solids improvement and that's really the bulk of the scope and cost of the project. And then the fourth uh element of the project is the incorporation of the CMGC approach and the method uh for this specific project. This was a preliminary design that was included as part of our contract, the city's contract with JUB engineers. Uh really just highlighting where the focus of the work will occur. Uh which is kind of in the center uh original portion of

the plant. Seltis Way would be on the north of the the image there or top of the image uh looking north. Uh so a little bit more of a a background and just where we are today. So in 2024, city council adopted the the facility study update that JUB performed. Uh in July, uh we uh council approved a contract design contract with JB engineers. In the fall, we purchased that second dewatering unit with BDP and around that same time frame, we published or the city published an RFQ for CMGC services. Uh we received responses from three firms. Uh the city moved forward with interviews of two of those firms and then ultimately selected Apollo Inc. as the most qualified firm. Uh early January, the city engaged in contract negotiations with Apollo Inc. which brings us to where we are tonight and the contract that's being presented. So the next few slides, uh I want to expand a bit on construction manager, general contractor. I know that we've um used the abbreviation quite a bit and uh taken an opportunity to uh point out how how this process works. So, starting with Idaho code, uh in Idaho code, the state recognizes three delivery processes for or methods for public works construction. Uh the traditional design bid build is the first method here. And this is the majority of the city's projects. uh majority of the projects that we're constructing follow [clears throat] this approach. This is uh results in an award to the lowest responsive bidder. The second method is a CMGC uh which we're discussing this evening. Uh this involves hiring a general contractor or construction manager, general contractor and bringing them into that design phase and allowing

that collaboration uh with the design engineer. And then following design, a contract for the construction would be negotiated with that CMGC. The third process I'll [snorts] highlight here is a design build. Uh that's really an owner going out and selecting a team. It's a designer and a contractor together to build a whatever it is a a warehouse. Um the end product is then delivered to the owner. A variation of that is the progressive design build. Uh that just allows allows more control, more involvement from the owner. Uh worth noting the city has not used this delivery method to date. Uh envision if that were a method to be used in the future that we would staff would bring that to city council.

Mr. Arini, I'm sorry. And I know you've explained this many times, so I thought I understood, but maybe you threw in the picking going out to bid and having the lowest bidder. Where does that fall into the construct the CMGC model as opposed to the I get the regular model and where it goes in there, but are we do we not do that then with the CMGC?

There's elements of that. So, with the CMGC, the main difference is that you're not um you're not taking that step where you're competitively bidding the entire project. Uh the city under this contract, we'd be hiring the CMGC to work with us through the design. Uh when we get to and I'll next couple slides I'll talk about a GMP. So guaranteed maximum price and that is really when we start talking about the construction contract itself where we negotiate the cost of the construction contract versus a competitive bidding that you would perform in that traditional setting

and the CMGC is involved in that and using their construction expertise to help us get what would be considered a competitive price like we would have gotten with the bidding model. Yeah,

correct. the elements of that. There is a premium involved in the CMGC and I'll um expand on that in in a couple slides just to illustrate that CMGC is is not the best fit for every project and it's um it's really project dependent and what those goals are. I think to answer one more question just before I moved on and I want to make sure there is an element of competitive bidding that happens under the CMGC. So when we develop work packages, the CMGC will put those out for subcontractor, say pipe work, um the CMGC could also bid that as a self-performing contractor. So they could compete with company A, company B, company C. And there is an element of competitive bidding that happens, but it's not the in the traditional setting where um you have contractors bidding the entire job. And

but it doesn't happen under the CMGC where the CMGC can just choose whichever contractor they want. That might be the more expensive option. We're still protecting the tax dollars. Correct. With Okay, great. Thank you. That's that's just what I wanted to clarify.

Yeah. Sorry, long way to for me to get there. Um, so moving on to the delivery method and how we select that for the the project. So that's really project dependent and what the the goals are of each project uh with the CMGC since that's what we're talking about tonight. That allows for the collaboration. So that the CMGC's in the room and discussing how they would construct, how they would approach the project. Uh allows for constructability reviews. So at the end of the design, we have a project that we know is constructible and the the CMGC is taking ownership in that. Uh it also allows for early release of work packages. I mentioned project one. That's a great example of a piece of equipment that the city purchased today uh to get it on order that will then be assigned to the contractor. Allows us to release packages of work when they're ready to go out and uh start work earlier rather than later. And then maybe one of the most overlooked elements of this advantage is that it allows the city to select the CMG Suite firm. Uh compared to selecting or compared to the traditional design bid build model of selecting the lowest bidder, the city is actively involved in soliciting from the most qualified contractor through an RFQ and um selecting that that firm based on the best qualifications, most qualified and best fit for the project. uh talking a little bit on how Apollo uh plays into this. So talking general terms in the previous slide. So specifically Apollo has contractual requirements with the city and through the design phase uh once we meet the completion of the design we'll move into a uh negotiated guaranteed maximum price uh GMP. Uh the city will have an opportunity to review that and then negotiate with the the CMGC. I do want to note if that is unsuccessful, the city does have the

option to pursue this in a traditional design bid build process in terms of uh competitively bidding the project. I don't anticipate that will happen. Uh but that is a an off-ramp if you will or contingency that the city would have available. And as I mentioned, I will city staff will be back when we get to this milestone of the project, uh, which I anticipate in the fall time frame when we expect will be through the design and at a point where we're discussing construction contracts and a GMP that would be coming back to the city uh, city council for a recommendation. U, but I'll touch on this here since it's part of the the presentation. So the guaranteed maximum price is that the contractor's guarantee that that's the maximum that the owner will pay. That includes a contingency that the contractor deems necessary to address the risks. Uh through the design process, we will develop a a risk register of the the the risk that we could see occurring, the probability and then how those would be resolved. and the contractor under that GMP method that gives the the contractor flexibility to um manage those risks and ensure that they're coming in at that guaranteed maximum pricing.

And I have a question on that. On the contingency, is that also designed to cover any potential change orders that may occur over time or is it just risk of liability or other? So the the contingency would manage the the risks that have been identified by the project team. If it's a an addition to the project, say the city wants to add 1,000 ft of water line, that would be an addition that is outside of the GMP. Uh that is an owner requested addition. Okay. So that would be an increase to the I guess the overall the guaranteed maximum price. A change order would include whatever costs to effectuate the change would be added on top. Correct?

Okay. And that's so it doesn't come out of the 10% contingency. Correct. Okay. Yes. Um I'll touch on it in the next next slide, but hold that thought on the 10% contingency because I want to touch on that. Very good. I I guess any more questions for a

Well, I had a question about the contingency and tell me if you're going to answer it on the next slide, but because when I say guaranteed, it sounds like guaranteed, but it's guaranteed unless so the what would trigger the contingency would be something like acts of God, right? Um weather delays or things like that, not acts of a contractor that delay the project, right? like we get to decide if that contingency is released or not. Yes,

correct. We have an involvement in the review of anytime the contractor is requesting use of that contingency. Um to be clear, maybe a good time to address it. So the 10% that you mentioned, uh that is for the design for the pre-construction services that we are requesting this evening. Uh when we're talking a contingency as part of the GMP, that is still to be defined. We don't know what that amount would be. Um it [clears throat] it may or may not be 10%. So um I'll expand on that in in a subsequent slide. I guess circling back on your question about what would trigger that it weather events or certain situations might actually be included in that development of the risk register. Um it could include a hey we think there might be a 80% chance that this site could could be flooded uh just as a rough example and we work through that probability and that risk register and throughout the design process at a 30% 60 and 90% design we're looking at the risks and then determining whether we carry those risks forward or we retire them perhaps maybe through more information that we've identified at the end uh which signals the GMP negotiation the contract contractor that's at that time where the contractor CMGC will bring all of that information and say here's what I see as my risks here's my contingency that I would like to include in this guaranteed maximum price uh to manage everything that we know today

so we're not creating a a disincentive to perform to the contract's guaranteed maximum price we're just allowing that guaranteed maximum price to be something that's not artificially inflated to cover the contractor's risk. Um, is there any incentive for it to cost less than the guaranteed maximum price? Like if it comes in under and there's money left over, is there a bonus to the contractor or anything like that?

There is. And uh what we have done so we have done this method uh one time previously a few years ago we constructed the outfall project and and in that project the savings belong to the city. So if the cost of the actual construction came in under the GMP that savings uh belonged to the city came back to the city there there are different approaches that can be done uh to your comment about incentivizing. So there there are uh structures that you could put in place to split the savings. Um different incentives in different directions, but historically in that one previous project, we had the savings um belonging to the city. Uh so summarizing the contract amount this evening and the request the pre-construction services with Apollo uh is the TNM contract. So city staff is requesting a contingency or call it a management reserve. This this contingency is for city staff to manage through the remainder of the design phase and would be for design additions maybe changes in the design itself that uh we are not aware of today and that would be at um the discretion of the public works director or is it his destiny? Um, so this is a this 10% contingency of the 45,490 is related to this pre-construction services. When we're talking to GMP that will come at a future date, it will have a contingency related to the contractor. Uh, total request this evening is $500,391.99. And then this is budgeted through uh budgeted and funded through the solids

handling improvements project. And Andrew, is this just for the the management services or is this for the project cost itself?

This is just the contract with Apollo. So, uh this is the the slide on the screen or the table on the screen are the contracted amounts to date. So, we have a design contract uh and the value of 3.8 [snorts] million. Uh we've purchased that second dewatering unit with BDP uh for 775,000 and then I've included the contract this evening with Apollo and that's the 500,000. Also note this includes the contingencies that have been authorized with each of those contracts. So this is up to the amount that staff public works director because I was really excited there was only one comma. [laughter] Now I'm a little disappointed.

I will click to the next screen. This is the total project [snorts] estimate. This is the planning cost. Um we've we've mentioned before uh planning level estimates can be 50% or they they can be plus 100%. Uh with what we've contracted to date and where we are, I I think we're more or less in line. We'll know a lot more as we continue through the design phase over the next this next year. Now that we're if the contract is approved bringing the CMGC on board, uh we'll start to get into those cost estimates and those will be developed periodically through the the phasing. So this planning level estimate will be updated as we advance

and we will have another contract with Apollo as we move out of the preconstruction phase. Correct. for the construction of the actual improvements. Will we have another contract with JUB as well? We will. There will be a there would be a contract amendment for construction support services that uh would coincide with the construction of the project. And our normal contingency when we do the design bid build um is usually somewhere around like 5 to 3% right. uh usually 5 to 10% is a a construction or a contingency that we've requested for construction.

Is there a reason that we are asking for the higher end of the contingency for preconstruction design phase? There is uh this has been somewhat typical. I I would say the 10% has been a more recent typical request that we've done. I will say that as we move through the project phases and the further along we get from a pre-esign and design to construction, there's more certainty. Okay.

And at at this stage, we have more certainty than we did in July 1st when we started design. Uh but we're about a 30% design in the project currently. So that 10% or 45,000 uh would account for any additions uh maybe a make a slight direction change with Apollo through the design. I understand that. I meant if there's something specific about this project and this pre-esign that's causing you to ask for the higher end of the contingency. I think just the magnitude of of the total project.

Okay. uh total total project cost is is the 30.3 planning level estimate and then noting through the the two projects project one and project two I think the elements and as we anticipate as we get into it into an existing plant um originally constructed 1984 and has been added on and built uh that's that's one of the considerations as well in the CMGC approach is it allows the CMGC to kind of roll up their sleeves if you and get in and see what they're working with and hands-on and so there could be a situation where um we we discover something we don't know today. Gotcha. Okay. Thank you.

Might we expect that that's similar to what is going to be asked at the actual con or the GMP phase is the higher end of the contingency for projects.

I I don't know what that amount will be. I don't know um what a percent will be. A maybe an example we when we constructed the outfall and I I'll round up and use some some numbers. What I recall is we had a a construction the construction cost of of the facility or the the new outfall line was around 3 million. The contractor had a had a contingency of 500,000 and that was based on a risk register that included there's risk in the inwater work if the coffer dam was not uh installed correctly. It had to do with timing of inwater work. We had a very tight window to operate. Uh so all of those were developed into a a risk register and then analyzed or evaluated based on how likely is that is it a high probability low and that's really what drove the cost [snorts] of their contingency. Um I guess one positive note and in the end we the net result was less than the GMP um as the total final project cost.

Yeah. So there's some logic in this decision on a contingency. You're not just putting your finger up in the wind, but you're actually reviewing probable outcomes. Correct. And accounting for those. Correct. They I believe they call it a Monte Carlo analysis and they um used in computer software. It's it's actually a terminology that seems very less. Yeah. Okay. [laughter] It's a project management term and they use that to evaluate the probability. Uh so there's computer programs and software that that does that.

Cool. So, Andrew, I'd like to It won't affect my decision at the end of this presentation, but perhaps in the future we can work something into these contracts that rewards the um rewards the contractor for efficiency rather than just returning all of the money to the city. Um, we know, um, I'm not making any espersions on anyone's character, but we know that when there's a million dollars in the budget, there's a lot of incentive to spend a million. And so, if there's a way that we could say, hey, if you save 50,000 and your margin is roughly 10%, maybe we pay you the the 5,000 and we save the 45. So, we build in an incentive for our contractors to return money to the city rather than we just take it all and incentivize them to spend it all and maybe burn into the contingency fund on top of that.

That's a great comment and definitely note that and I would say there's an opportunity for that when we get to the GMP um for us to structure the contract and and take that into consideration when we we get to that point.

Thank you. I have a question in the relationship between JUB, the CMGC and the GMP. Um, we're providing engineering [clears throat] guidance from JUB for the overall project. Correct. And then we're hiring a CMGC to to design more or less this phase of it. Is there any oversight that JUP provides to that design work? So I would call it uh pre-construction services with Apollo. They're not actually doing the design. They'll be um they'll be assisting JUB and in with inputs and feedback through the design. So JUB is the design engineer of record. Um they will be the they will become the design engineer of record from design through construction and stamp the plans as as built essentially. uh the CMGC comes in just more as a feedback loop that hey how you have that designed you might think about doing it this way

it's the theory versus practice expertise okay yeah it brings in that field expertise that's agree

so then my next question is with the CMGC involved in designing that phase that they're for lack of a better word using the word designing that phase and then also being involved in the negotiation of the GMP is there any risk as the city taking in any potential inflation of the price to or the concerns or risk that they are taking in order to implate that GMP or [clears throat] there is that concern. There's always um a concern that one of the key things that we had in our procurement documents or the publication of the RFQ is that transparency element that those were questions we asked of the firms that we interviewed that will the city have the opportunity to see how you're estimating these and so we have open book if you will that was a term that got brought up and I will say the the firms that we we spoke with all said that yes you you get to come along in that process and see how we're estimating and how this is all open book. I I did note that there's the negotiation piece that I guess in the instance that we feel as though we're not getting a a fair value and we're not able to negotiate that that would be an off-ramp point um past the design. We've gained the benefit through the design in having a contractor weigh in on sequencing project phasing, identifying risk that um from the experts in the field that that do this every day. So even if there was say an off-ramp down the road, we've gained the benefit of u harnessing that knowledge from from the contractor CMGC.

So I think I think I like the word sequencing in this. will help me understand we're we're going to go come to an agreement of what the scope of this consultation is from the the CMGC before we then enter negotiation for the GMP. Correct. So, it's not going to be a surprise um entering in those negotiations for the GMP. We're going to be fully involved in that process of what they're really asking for to cover their risk. We will have a contract set of plans that JUB will have developed heavily influenced by Apollo Inc. and Apollo Inc. will develop their GMP, their construction contract off of the design documents and submit that for city review and and negotiation. So it is based on the project design that over the next 12 months we will all be all three parties JUB, Apollo and the city will be interacting with uh through those design workshops that were noted in the scope.

Okay, thank you. Maybe Jub could hire a contractor and then we could just pay them a little bit more money instead of having 47 contracts to manage.

That might be a legal question. [laughter] That might be more of a design build approach and so that there is a model that yeah [snorts] I I guess any more questions before move on. Okay believe I was the planning level summary um estimated costs u so final slide uh just want to touch on project schedule. So these first three uh bullet points were kind of the primary or uh schedule driven priorities when we kicked off the contract in in July that we needed to to get through the preliminary design, get to a a level of design at 30% to bring a CMGC on board. Um we needed to get procurement documents out and get a second dewatering unit ordered which we've done and with approval of this contract tonight that brings a CMGC on board. Uh so we kind of grind forward uh over the next 12 months working through the design and getting in the details. Um so everyone's excited at this point I think getting uh to this this stage and bringing Apollo in they are excited to to join the team uh next steps and I guess just outlook for what you can anticipate from us. Uh so project one the that remains the priority in the continued design and then once the equipment arrives which is anticipated next January 2027 uh we would start installation that unit would be installed or that unit would be installed by Apollo uh with installation completed around June 27 and then the project two will also continue in parallel uh and that construction for the balance of the the work in project two is estimated to start in spring of 2027 and then continue through 28. So it's about a year year and a half more than a year and a half.

With that, I will answer questions. Any more questions? I have a few. Uh, in the contract, I know you've drawn an important distinction between what you're as what we're being asked to approve here today being a pre-construction services agreement as opposed to the ultimate GMP. And I know in answer to uh councelor Stigle leader's question, you said that there would be a new contract for the GMP. In the pre-construction services agreement section 5.3.1 where it talks about substantial completion, it states to be established by GMP amendment.

Can you speak to the difference between a different contract and this amendment? Like what what can we expect here?

So you're absolutely correct. the contract uh the GMP contract will come as a in the form of an amendment to this contract. So it'll be amended to um it will have its own several pages uh many pages of contract terms and it's all tied back to um to this contract document. So that amendment will outline the cost of the GMP and what we are agreeing to and then we will fill in the dates. So, we left several of those sections blank in the contract as they're just they're not applicable at this time or we don't have that information to to fill that in. Um, when we get through the design, that will inform the construction time frame, the schedule, and then all of those terms and and conditions would be updated, the ones that are at least left blank. So that's why there are so many construction contract terms in here that don't seem to apply to a pre-construction services agreement where we're just in the design phase and

Right. Okay. Um yeah, it's using the AIA document tailored to a pre-construction um stage of the project and then ultimately that will serve as the construction phase when we amend it.

I see. Along the lines of the question I just or the uh section I just pointed out the substantial completion se section is there no substantial completion then for pre-construction services it's uh in alignment with no substantial completion on the professional services typically we don't have a substantial completion when we're contracting with a consultant or design engineer uh we are using the JUB's schedule and we've uh Apollo Inc's scope and agreement align with that overall design pre-construction services phase. Uh so that is in alignment with where we're going in the next year. The substantial completion date will come into play when we get into construction.

Thank you. Uh on section 6.2.1.6 where it's talking about liquidated damages. Is that one of the sections that's going to be amended in the GMP amendment? I I can't recall off the top of my head. Is that filled in currently? No, it says that there's there's really no details on it. And so that's why I was wondering like is there going to be a liquidated damages uh built into this contract? I mean, there's the boiler plate, but there's none of the amounts. And so I was wondering if that's something that's going to be uh considered at the GMP phase of this uh negotiation.

Yes. Okay. uh we will we'll fill that in. And the reason uh that's another just another piece of information that we believe we'll we'll know more when we get to that point of the the project and the contract to know what what is an appropriate amount for LDS for liquidated damages.

And just one more question for you. Thank you. I I appreciate it. uh particularly we're we're considering and this may be a question that we'll probably need to ask at the GMP phase, but uh this contract that we're approving tonight or voting on tonight talks about lean waiverss and stuff that actually applies during the actual construction phase who at you know before the before the CMGC or any uh I guess the actual construction manager applies for payments who at the city is going to be responsible for ensuring that we have received all the appropriate lean waiverss or otherwise just manages this particular project.

Correct. Uh so I I am the project manager for this project. Um we have an hour contract with JUB engineers. they are part of their task is a list of administrative tasks which include um at the start of the project the contractor will fill out a WH5 form. They fill out um all the initial documentation that's needed as part of the state requirements and then at the close of the project before we release final payment. That's it's really the city's protection that um before we release retainage and final payment to the contractor, the contractor must demonstrate that they've met all of their requirements under the contract, which includes uh lean releases or waiverss, um includes all payments to subcontractors. Another piece of that as far as protection beyond the the project is that the city retains a payment bond um typically for a year past the contract through that warranty period. Uh so [clears throat] that also protects uh a performance and payment bond. So that protects the city uh against any any claims. But I guess answering your question, JUB will provide the um they do a lot of the review on the administrative uh front of that and then in conjunction with that when we're submitting for pay applications uh I'm providing that review as well.

Thank you. That's all question. Cursory review. Yeah. All right. entertain a motion unless there's more questions. I would move to approve the construction manager general contractor contract with Apollo Inc. for pre-construction services at the water reclamation facility. Second motion in a second. Further discussion. Roll call, please. Luca I. Malloy. I. Stigleer. I. Mosby. I. Ziggler. I. Pl. I. Motion passes. Thank you. Next up, ordinance city boards and commissions. We've discussed this before, so I think we just need a motion on this one.

I move to place the ordinance uh ordinance and city boards and commissions on its first and only reading by title only while under suspension of the rules. Second motion in a second for the discussion. Roll call, please. Malloy, I. Stigler, I. Mosby, I. Ziggler, I. Pl. Luca, I.

Motion passes. An ordinance of the city of Post Falls, Coutney County, a municipal corporation of the state of Idaho, repealing municipal code chapter 2.12 and adopting a new chapter 2.12 regulating the appointment of members of the Postfalls Planning and Zoning Commission, Parks Recreation and Urban Forestry Commission, Urban Renewal Agency, the Postfalls Building Code Board of Appeals, and the Industrial Corporation for the City of Post Falls, providing that remaining sections of Postf Falls City Code shall remain in effect, providing for severability, providing for this ordinance to be in full force in effect from and after its passage, approval, and publication according to law.

I move to approve the ordinance on city boards and commissions and to direct the clerk to assign the appropriate number and that it be published by summary only. Second. Motion in a second. Further discussion. Roll call, please. Malloy, I. Stiglader, I Mosby, I. Ziggler, I. Luca, I. Motion passes. Thank you. Next up, ordinance parades. This is something we have discussed before, but we have a couple new council members, so maybe a little summary is a good idea.

So, a couple of years ago, um, we looked at our parades and we needed to update the ordinances that we had. We also were working with the Post Falls community ambassadors and they were hosting the parade. So, we were wanting to overlay what I would call anou or an agreement with that group to host the postfalls festival parade. We started down that path. Um went out, did research, looked at Moscow, Lewon, Spokane, and what they're doing with the uh parade ordinances and legal drafted a parade ordinance. Um it came forward, I want to say December, and there were some objections to the funeral piece of the parade. We have since met with that group, got that language clarified so that small funeral processions don't fall under the parade ordinance. And so the ordinance [clears throat] is before you tonight. We currently do not have a host for the um Post Falls parade for 2026. And we're looking into that and working with a couple of nonprofits on the possibility of hosting the parade for this year. When that comes forward, we'll have anou draft to present to council. C

can I ask you to clarify? I I thought when I read it the concern was not funerals but religious processions, small religious processions. That was as that was as well. Um we updated the basically the definitions of what constitutes parade and what constitutes a funeral possession procession, excuse me. Um and so those definitions do not include those items that um that group was concerned about. Okay. So there's a procession in October that they do from the Idaho Street down to the city hall here. It would not fall within this ordinance. And to clarify, it wasn't just uh defining what a small funeral procession was. It was a small religious procession was also included in that.

That was the my main concern because yeah, it's not not funerals that they're necessarily worried about. Right. So, thank you. Were those the only two community concerns that [clears throat] stopped it from going from that had it removed from our agenda in December? That's the only ones that I'm aware of. Okay. All right. If there are no other questions, we can entertain a motion. I move to place the ordinance on parades on its first and only reading by title only while under suspension of the rules. Second. Motion in a second. Further discussion. Roll call, please. Stigler. Hi Mosby. Hi Ziggler. Hi Flu. Hi Luca.

Hi Mallaloy. Hi. Motion passes.

An ordinance of the city of Post Falls, Coupney County, a municipal corporation of the state of Idaho providing for repeal and replacement of chapter 10.28 28 of the Postf Falls municipal code relating to parades, funeral processions, and temporary street closures. Establishing permitting requirements and regulations for events impacting public streets, alleys, and rights of way. Providing for definitions, application procedures, approval criteria, insurance requirements, and time, place, and manner restrictions. Providing for the enforcement penalties, and appeals. Providing for the repeal of conflicting ordinances. Providing that adoption will not affect the prosecution of violations, the collection of penalties, the validity of prior actions or matters pending, providing for severability, providing for this ordinance to be in full force and effect from and after its passage, approval, and publication according to law.

I move to approve the ordinance on parades and to direct the clerk to assign the appropriate number and that it be published by summary only. Second. Motion and a second further discussion. Roll call, please. Stigler. I. Mosby I Ziggler I Luca I Mallaloy

I motion passes. Thank you. Next up consideration of adding invocation to city council agendas. We've talked about this a little bit. Um my proposal was to add a a very brief non sectarian invocation to the beginning of the meetings to uh to ask for the the divine assistance and and wisdom in the very weighty matters that that we deal with. I think it's sorely needed these days. Um, so I'll I'll leave it to you guys for comments and and see where we go from here.

I have some comments, sir. This isn't as long as some of the other ones, so [laughter] don't have to buckle in quite so bad. And I'm also combining uh a couple things here because the two issues are similar. These comments apply to both agenda item 3D, considering adding a invocation to city council agendas, and agenda item 4A, a repeal of policy on city proclamations. With respect to item 3D, the mayor's stated purpose is to solemnize the council's proceedings. Attendance and participation would be voluntary and the invocation would be would not be intended to advocate or procilitize for any specific religion or belief system. With respect to item 4A, Mayor Wesland is requesting that this policy be repealed to allow him to determine which policies uh which proclamations he would like to issue on a case-by case basis. He has indicated that he would like to be able to issue proclamations regarding the right to life, traditional family values month, Columbus Day, and other issues related to residents of the city. I would like to begin by steel manning the arguments in favor of both of these actions. First and foremost, personally, I'm a Christian. I believe that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. I believe and science affirms that life begins at conception. Numerous studies demonstrate that children raised with both their mother and father in the home are much more likely to achieve positive outcomes both in childhood and adulthood than children who aren't. More broadly, Western culture was built on Judeo-Christian ethics from the Roman Empire to the British Empire to modern day Europe and the Americas. Our own republican form of government is uniquely predicated on the sanctity of life, the inherent value of the individual, and free will. To proclaim to proclaim such things publicly isn't saying anything the founders of this country didn't already know or believe. They openly acknowledged our creator in the Declaration of Independence. This council already affirms we are one nation under God while reciting the pledge of allegiance to open every meeting. Over the last several decades, there's been a concerted and largely successful effort to remove God from the public space. As time has gone on, open mocking of religion and traditional values has become so common as to be generally culturally acceptable and even expected. Uh I believe one of the things

that separates humans from beasts is our ability to conceptualize a power and a purpose greater than ourselves. And the more we drift away from that, the more we devolve back into beasts. For the next part, I need some equipment here. [laughter] [snorts] Uh I also believe there is a deliberate effort to destroy Western civilization, replace it with an authoritarian collective, which if history is any guide, can only result in widespread suffering and death. It is our duty as a free people created in the image of God to remind the world that Western culture built and refined over millennia upon a foundation of Judeo-Christian ethics is brought into being the highest level of freedom and prosperity this planet has ever known. Uh as such on a strictly personal level should either or both of these requested actions pass it would be difficult not to see it as a win at least in the short term. Uh is that a fairly accurate representation of the position on this?

It is. All that having been said, my vote on these matters and all others that come before me as a member of this council is not a strictly personal action. I was elected by the majority of Postf Falls voters to represent all citizens of Post Falls, not just myself. Pursuant to that responsibility, I also pledged an oath to uphold and defend the constitutions of the United States and the state of Idaho. So my first question is, is this legal? Uh United States Constitution Constitution first amendment opens with Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. While the plain text of the amendment restricts only only restricts Congress, federal courts have repeatedly ruled that the provisions of this amendment apply to any lawmaking body in the United States, which includes city councils. Further, the courts have generally not limited application of the establishment clause to legislation, but to any action that appears to promote sectarian ideals. Federal courts have upheld the practice of sectarian prayers during official public meetings so long as the prayer practices prayer practice does not coers participation, procilitize, denigrate other faiths or signal that governmental decision-making was conditioned on religious conformity. That the floor be open to various faith traditions uh and the prayer is not led by the elected officials themselves. C town of Greece versus Galway, Galloway and Ruben v. City of Lancaster. Federal courts have split on the practice of prayer delivered by elected officials during official public meetings. The sixth circuit upheld the practice in Bar Bormouth v. Jackson County while the fourth circuit deemed the practice unconstitutional in Lv Roman County, Rowan County, excuse me. Uh [snorts] the US Supreme Court has not taken up the matter. As such, there is significant ambiguity as to the legality of these issues, leaving the door wide open for costly legal challenges on constitutional grounds. What does the Idaho Constitution have to say about it? Uh, Constitution of the State of Idaho, Article One, Declaration of Rights, Section 4, Guarantee of Religious Liberty, says in part, "No person shall be required to support any ministry or place of worship, religious sect or denomination, nor shall any preference be given by law to any religious

denomination or mode of worship." Uh, article 9, section five, sectarian appropriations prohibited, uh, states in part, neither the legislature nor any city shall ever pay from any public fund or monies, whatever, anything for any sectarian or religious purpose. Uh, unfortunately, these meetings there is a cost to maintain the building, operate the utilities, pay the staff, pay us. So, there is a there is a cost expended here. So, that could be a a liability or a weakness. Uh, same article, article 9, prohibits the teaching of any religion in public schools. Section six states in part uh no sectarian or religious tenants or doctrine shall ever be taught in the public schools. No books, papers, tracks, or documents of a political sectarian or denominational character shall be used or introduced in any schools established under the provisions of this article. Nowhere in the US or Idaho constitutions is the government empowered to establish or promote religion. While there are prohibitions or restrictions of such in both documents and subsequent case law, the Idaho Constitution seems particularly clear. It directs us to keep religion out of official public proceedings. Idaho code outlines the duties and authorities of the mayor as followed. This is Idaho code 50-602. Mayor and administrative official. The mayor shall be chief shall be the chief administrative official of the city. Preside over meetings of the city council and determine the order of business subject to such rules as the council may prescribe. Have a vote only when the council is equally divided. Have the superintending control of all the officers and affairs of the city. preserve order and take care that the ordinance of the city and provisions of this act are complied with and enforced. Uh there is no duty or authority to endorse or promote a particular set of cultural or political values. Generally speaking, constitutional law dictates that if a particular authority isn't explicitly given, it means you don't have it. It falls to the people. Pending state legislation, specifically bill Senate Bill 1233, aims to restrict religion and judicial proceedings. As reported by CBS 2 News in Boisey, uh this bill's purpose is to prohibit

lawmakers and judges to enforce laws based on rel religious beliefs. And it reads in part, uh no state court at any level of jurisdiction or authority shall enforce, consider, or apply any judgment, decree, ruling, or decision of arbitration based on a body of religious or cultural law that does not fully support and conform with the rights of citizens as defined in the United States Constitution and the Constitution of the State of Idaho. Now, this bill has not yet come to a full vote of the leg legislature, but again, the state seems to be telling us to keep religion out of official public proceedings. Uh, because city councils have quasi judicial authorities in specific matters, this bill could become relevant to the city of Post Falls should it pass and we vote in favor of 3D and 4A tonight. Uh, what about the pledge of allegiance? If we can recite under God and the pledge of allegiance, why can't the mayor give an an invocation? uh regarding the phrase under God and the pledge of allegiance, federal courts have generally upheld its legality in official public settings based on two primary factors. The first being history and tradition where the reference is historical rather than actively religious, where institutions have a tradition of reciting the pledge of allegiance and where p participation is strictly voluntary, they can generally continue to do so. In the case of the pledge, the courts have ruled that under God is a historical reference reference to the creator noted in the declaration of independence rather than an act of appeal to a higher power. See new versus real Linda. Uh an invocation on the other hand is a direct appeal to a higher power rather than a simple acknowledgement of history. Further, Post Falls does not have a tradition of invocations at city council meetings. Uh to my knowledge, the city has never done this. Uh number two uh it's permissible generally according to the courts if the religious aspect is a small part of a larger and multifaceted whole that is predominantly secular as a supreme court noted in Lynch v. Donnelly focus exclusively quote focus exclusively on the religious component of any government activity would inevitably lead to its invalidation under the establishment clause unquote. Unlike the pledge of allegiance which the courts have ruled as primarily historical and patriotic in nature an invocation is

purely a religious act. Uh it is clear that a merled invocation leaves the door wide open for civil legal challenges. This would also be the case if we were to remove the policy regarding proclamations. A primary purpose for having policies in the first place is to provide a fair and relatively rigid framework by which to objectively allow or disallow certain activities or behaviors. If we can point to a policy and the policy is fair and consistently applied, that policy largely protects the city from legal challenge. To have no pol policy whatsoever, especially with the mayor stating he wants sole authority to subjectively choose which proclamations are made on behalf of the city is practically inviting legal challenge. And even policies themselves don't make the city immune to costly legal battles. In fact, I've argued to Mayor Jacobson and Mayor Wesson that we should consider not doing proclamations at all. They present a fairly significant risk with minimal benefit. A huge part of conservative governance is not putting taxpayers money at risk. One criticism of that approach, however, is quote, "X is important. Let let them sue us." unquote. While on a strictly personal level, I might agree with that sentiment on a particular issue, there are certainly taxpayers and postfalls who don't believe ex issue is important and wouldn't voluntarily throw their hard-earned money to defend it in court. And even if the city were to win, it would still cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to achieve that victory. I'd rather see citizens challenge the statutes and court decisions directly rather than set up the taxpayers of Post Falls as unwilling proxies for such challenges. It's fairly easy to say, "Let them sue when the defense is being paid with other people's money." Uh, these actions also potentially open up Pandora's box of future shenanigans I may not personally support. For example, while unlikely, it's certainly possible for a future mayor uh to proclaim June to be Carl Marks Month in the city of Post Falls. And if anything like that were to come to pass, uh we would have no we'd have zero moral footing to return around and prohibit such things if we allow the current mayor such authority and discretion today. Finally, I must also ask, do these actions support the city's purpose and objectives? Cities have a very narrow and specific lane of authority. The primary purposes of city governments are to provide for public sanitation. And as

I've noted several times before, the cornerstone of civilized society is the ability to keep human waste away from human activity. Uh purpose for providing for the public safety, public infrastructure, and to facilitate the efficient movement of people and commerce and provide for the safe and orderly development. This is why municipal level offices are nonpartisan. Liberals and conservatives alike want clean water to come out of their taps. Socialists and libertarians alike want their toilets to flush and the contents to go somewhere that won't poison the land or water supply. Whether one voted for Donald Trump, Kla Harris, Jill Stein, or Chase Oliver, all want someone to pick up the phone when they call when they dial 911 and a timely arrival of first responders. [clears throat]

Whether one worships Jesus Christ, Buddha, or no God at all, all want roads that are well-maintained and intersect and intersections that function efficiently. The vast majority of what a city government does is literally supported by everybody regardless of ideology. I think the conservative approach as a city is to stay in our lane and stick to our primary objectives. My belief here is bolstered by the fact that I have received very little input from the public on these matters and the few communications I did receive were all in opposition. Uh, it is for these reasons I'm likely to vote against both requests, although I certainly want to hear what the rest of the council has to say. Thank you for your very thoughtful analysis. It's clear you spent [clears throat] a lot of time on it. I appreciate that. You're welcome.

Mayor Weslin, my guess is that we all have some sort of wellthoughtout deliberation that we would like to say or speak on. Are you wanting us to go down the line and give our thing or do you want us to have open conversation and then give our final assessment in such a way at the vote during deliberation? However you'd like to do it is fine. Share your thoughts. The boss of this I think as code states. So, I'm curious cuz um I think we could sit here for 30 minutes while we all say what we want to say and not maybe talk to each other or I I I don't know if council has an opinion on that or want to tell the mayor, but

Well, how about this? The chair recognizes councelor Stigler leader. Well, you you were gonna let me talk no matter what. No, I'm just kidding. Um if you're looking for other further input, I would like to hear what everybody has to say.

All right, then I'll go next. So I appreciate what you have to say and I think generally we think along many of the same lines and in the same um steps at least. So I too ask myself is first of all is this something that we can even do and I think the answer is clearly yes. Idaho state code actually doesn't speak to an invocation at all either in um the powers of the mayor or the powers of the council. What it does speak to is what the mayor is allowed to decide that we do and what the council is allowed to decide that we do. So, uh, in chap in title 15, chapters 6 and 7, it says that the mayor has to enforce the rules that council sets forth and the agenda that we set. So, it seems well within council's purview to add an invocation reoccurring to um the agenda. So, that seems fine. And this isn't something new. Both the Senate, the US Senate and the US House of Representatives start their sessions with an invocation um from their chaplain. Many legislative bodies do this and even Cordelane does this. So somewhere local also has a prayer be before each um city council. So we can I think a reasonable question is should we which I think is mostly what you were speaking to Mr. Mallaloy. Um I like the idea that an invocation brings semnity. It brings a serious tone. when it reminds us that this is not even though I tend to speak more casually because that's just sort of who I am but this is not a casual conversation it's a public duty um and we want to do it correctly and for those inclined it can be a request for wisdom um discernment grace perspective beyond ourselves from a higher power in Post Falls I feel that we do represent a very dense religious community and while it is dense even just here it's quite varied and out in the community it's quite varied Um, and it seems to me that a statement that's designed to draw us together from all of our faith backgrounds in an appeal to seek the common good, protect the

vulnerable, and promote the well-being and harmony of all those who dwelt here is is is a worthy task. Um, should we be able to do it? So, we can. I think that we should. Really, the question that I've been wrestling with is how should we do it? Um, I think if we just start from the broadest perspective, we could adopt a model that many municipalities have, which is we invite a community faith leader to say what they would like to say before the meeting. Um, I feel like that opens the door. Uh, I I think it does sound generous and inclusive, but my concern is that it's slightly unstable. Um, without more guard rails on it, it could actually look that there is like there is bias. And if it looks like there is bias, that's really all that it takes. So like who do we invite? How often do we invite them? What constitutes a community faith leader? Um, so I don't really think that that's a viable option for us. Next, we could talk about having someone from the public say set wording. I don't think we're allowed to do that, so I'll just move on from that. Um, and then maybe an invocation delivered by the mayor. The way that I understood this um originally when it was on the agenda was that we were voting on verbiage for the mayor to say every time. I don't think that that's technically what we're doing and nor would I advocate for that in the end. So really the only option that's left is do we as a council allow an agenda item that is the mayor's invocation um with no set wording, no public rotation. Oh, I was going to talk about chaplain turkeys because I stopped reading my notes. So, a chaplain is an option, but a chaplain costs money. Um, we don't live in a community that has a particular appetite, nor do I, for spending additional funds, and by your wellressearched state statutes, it doesn't seem like we're allowed to do that anyway. So, that's off the table again. So, we arrive at allowing the mayor to give an invocation. No set wording, no public rotation, um, just

the presiding officer, most often the mayor offering brief remarks. again, solemn, restrained, voluntary for all present, not mandated, not scripted, not compensated, just simply an approved agendum item before the business. So, under Idaho code, the mayor manages the meeting um subject to the rules that we decide. An open reflection for invocation fits within that order. Um it doesn't require appropriation. There's no ordinance drafting that we need to do. um no invitations to schedule or manage from other faith leaders. I think that every other path is too much uh or not allowed. So what remains I think is allowing the mayor to do an invocation that is modest, limited, and practical. I don't think it's like the perfect perfect way to do it. Um but I think that it's reasonable. I think that it's legal and I think that if it turns into something that we don't like um then we just vote to take it off the agenda and it's as easy as that. So, okay, there's my little speech.

Short. Further thoughts?

I have some thoughts. Um first of all I I think that a lot of the benefits and the importance of giving an invocation and uh the questions can we should we I think these have been well thought out by the comments of the other counselors. I think one of the points I'd like to highlight is has already been addressed that this is giving an invocation is pretty deeply rooted in American history. I mean going back to the founding fathers declaration of independence like this is this is nothing new in our country um the importance of solemnizing these hearings I think is important um not just for us because I I have no doubt whatsoever that everyone here at this table and many who attend these hearings on a regular basis understand and recognize the semnity and importance of these hearings. Um, but I I think it goes further than that. And so to councelor Stigler leader's comment, the should we I I think she's right. Yes. Uh I I appreciate the comments and the the analysis that the other counselors have given as to can we is it lawful? What are the risks? And surely there there could be some perceivable risk. And I think with any important thing worth doing that's applicable. There is some perceivable risk. uh the comment uh already arose regarding the pledge of allegiance and the statement in the pledge of allegiance that we just stated and we say at every one of these hearings that uh where we reference that this is one nation under God. Uh at the time when that was adopted by President Eisenhower that was that was a pretty big uh a very controversial addition to the pledge of allegiance. uh and looking at the re the time in which it was added to

the pledge of allegiance. I think it's relevant to you know preserving what what's important uh for our society today. I think it was important then uh at the time when it was adopted and I think similarly in incorporating an invocation while being no no new process uh in in such boards as this in hearings such as this. I think that uh it would be consistent with the pledge of allegiance with incorporating the acknowledgement of our creator u at the outset of each of these hearings. I also think that the options that uh councelor Stigler leader has gone through as to how we should do this are that's very well thought out. Uh I I think that there there was another one that occurred to me that uh potentially if there is a chaplain considered I believe when I was listening to councelor Mallaloyy's uh recitation of the the statutes and the constitution of this state that the concern was about expenditure of public funds. Well, I I didn't hear councelor Stigler comment on asking for a volunteer chaplain, but um I digress. I I think that uh there are certainly other options that were all considered um that were discussed and councelor Sigler uh addressed those. But what we're asked here today is just to incorporate an agenda item that is not forever. It's not an ordinance. It's not a mandate. It's not adopting a particular prayer. It's do we want to incorporate an agenda item that allows our mayor, our current mayor to give an invocation and if we decide that we don't like it, we don't have to keep doing it. Um I think anymore and I will just be blabbering what other comments have already been stated. So I will be voting in favor.

Further thoughts?

Yes. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Um, as we take up this vote, I want to speak as to why I believe an invocation matters and not as a ritual or a performative right, but as a grounding reminder for those entrusted with public authority. History is full of examples of leaders who believe that they themselves were the highest source of wisdom and accountability. When political power convinces itself that it answers to no one, not to the people and not to anything other or anyone higher than human ambition and understanding, then the results have been devastating. This last century showed this in stark relief. Totalitarian movements, especially the communist regimes of the 20th century, extinguished by most conservative scholarly estimates well over 100 million lives. Their defining feature was not simply sloppy or bad governance. In fact, it was said that Mussolini made the trains run on time, but rather it was the belief that the state was the ultimate authority and accountable to nothing and no one above itself. And when leaders elevate themselves to that position, human dignity becomes negotiable and freedom becomes disposable. Our nation was founded on a radically different idea, one rooted in the best traditions of western civilization. The founders believe that rights come from a source higher than government and these rights therefore cannot be taken away by government. They believed that public office requires stewardship and stewardship requires humility. And this is precisely why during the last century the words under God were added to the pledge of allegiance. the very pledge that we recite at the beginning of every council meeting. It is a national affirmation that we are a people who recognize limits on government power, that no elected

official is the ultimate authority, and that we are distinctly different from governments that demand allegiance only to the state, and in doing so crush the human spirit. These words are a reminder of humility, of accountability, and the moral framework that protects our freedoms. And that is the same spirit behind the invocation u agenda item before us tonight. An invocation is not about imposing a belief. It is about acknowledging that we as elected officials are not the final source of wisdom. It is a moment of humility before we exercise authority over other citizens. It reminds us that our decisions affect real people and that we're accountable to the law, to the public, and to principles larger than ourselves. and whether one belongs to one of the many faith traditions that subscribe to the belief in a supreme deity or is a skeptic or is an agnostic or is even openly hostile to religion. The invocation concept that we're considering tonight [snorts] under underscores and protects the right of every person to hold whatever beliefs that he or she chooses. This is our birthright and it is anchored in the concept of free will. A principle deeply influential in the development of our constitution, our first amendment specifically, and the system of government that the constitution prescribes. In an age when political arrogance is easy and humility is rare, this simple practice helps anchor us. It keeps us grounded. It reminds us of who we are and who we're not. It keeps us mindful and it keeps us

connected to the philosophical in inheritance that made our system of government possible in the first place. For these reasons, I'll be voting in support of this invocation and I respectfully ask for unanimous support from this council.

Further thoughts? Well, you guys are also articulate. I think I say that almost every other council meeting. Um, I didn't really write anything out. I just um I want to say we were talking about uh councelor Mallaloy brought up tradition and history. And um I think um it was once said, you ignore tradition at your peril. Our forebears gave us tradition to keep us within check. There are monsters on the other side of that tradition when it's ignored and uh and we arouse them um when we march on hottily [snorts] um in pride and without um submitting ourselves to a higher wisdom. Um and I think if the pledge of allegiance says uh one nation under God and we just say that but we never live that out we never manifest that doesn't mean anything then the meaning is gone stripped away and you know our uh declaration of independence is a seinal founding document of this country. It's what kicked everything off. Um and here we are today and in there uh we are reminded that they wrote that with a firm reliance on the creator specifically on divine providence. So I think we have to acknowledge in everything we do there's something bigger going on in the world. So I would vote in favor of this tonight. I I would speak to a few points that have already been made and I know that probably all of us on the council here are trying to balance the the judicious way of moving forward with this with our personal beliefs and and therefore bias and then our also our responsibility as leaders of the community. So I appreciate each of you taking the time to express that. Um I think several points that I would like to make is one um as many of you have

already articulated. I think the the the pledge of allegiance in itself um has very high regard in our country and not only because of its tradition but also because it is a pledge of allegiance to the founding documents that this country uh was born upon. And I think in that it articulates everything that we're trying to reiterate with this proposed invocation. So with that, I think I think um while the spirit may be honorable, I think it is redundant to to perhaps think that an invocation would reaffirm something that we're already pledging our allegiance to. Um, secondly, I I you know, again, keep in mind this is this is uh the tension is created in setting aside our responsibility to community and our personal beliefs. And so, um, playing the devil's advocate is possibly what I'm doing here. But, uh, you know, you mentioned the the potential for for political arrogance leading us astray. I think there's also a high potential for and I think history has borne this out that religious arrogance can also lead us down paths that we don't want to to necessarily repeat. Um and so just wanted to kind of strike that point that just because we have a religious connotation to the direction that we really believe is right is not perhaps a all-encompassing [clears throat] litmus test to whether it is in the best interest of the city. um several other things that I would like to say, but just for the for brevity, I I think what I the issue that I have with with presenting this invocation is while the proposed intent is to solemnize our proceedings here and really to ask for guidance in the decisions that we make, it seems contradictory then to put us as

a city and representative of taxpayer dollars in a position of higher risk in order to solemnize those proceedings. And so for me, it's a no. Uh based on that, right? Do you have any further thoughts after hearing everyone else? I think it's a great discussion. I mean, yeah, everybody's thought a lot about this, so I appreciate all you thinking. They just like Nathan followed up with uh the main hat I have on is the risk management and money management hat. And um so that's it's still what's kind of pulling at me right now.

Yeah. Well, yeah, I just want to say that I'm very impressed with the the depths of everyone's thought here and I'm uh encouraged by how deeply everyone has thought about issues like this and I think it shows that we're careful in what we do. We're deliberate about the actions that we take and we're considering all the aspects. I'm certainly have got the the most thoughtful council probably in the entire state about doing things like this. as we look at the things that other cities have done um that we're we're being cautious about what we do and um and making sure that we're doing things that we believe are in the best interests of the of the residents here and and being willing to set aside personal biases and I think is is a noble thing. Um I my intention with the invocation is to be brief, professional, non sectarian, not to make a big deal out of it, not to make a show out of it, just to recognize our relation to that higher power. Um, and and that's that's my intention and I think we've all kind of stated where we stand on this. So, with that, I think we're ready for somebody to float a motion.

I I would move to add an invocation uh to be led by the mayor to as an agenda item to the beginning of the city council meetings. Second. Motion in a second. Any last discussion?

Yes, Mr. Mayor. just to say that um while I've already said how I'll be voting on this, I very much appreciated the comments of those uh who disagree because I think that we all disagree. Um those that disagree disagreed for the for the right reasons and um and they echo the concerns that I think all of us have. Um, however, I appreciate the fact that this has been done thoughtfully and that uh good advice has been sought and that the approach seems [snorts] uh seems good. I know that there was a um it's placing a lot of faith in you to uh pardon the pun to uh to come up with the right verbiage that um that will respect both the law and the people that we represent and I am confident that you will do so. So, thank you.

All right, roll call, please. Mosby. Ziggler. Nay PL I Luca I Mallaloy nay stigle leader I

motion passes. Thank you again. Very very um very thoughtful discussion. I'm glad everyone shared their thoughts. We will move on now to new business. First up is uh repeal of policy on city proclamations. I can add some some color to this since I'm I'm asking for this to be on the agenda. Uh one of the the big topics that comes up when you become chair of a board is how you're going to manage the ceremonial ceremonial aspects of it and proclamations fall under that. Uh by default proclamations fall to the discretion of the whoever the chair of the particular board is in this case the mayor. There's no particular state law governing proclamations. There is historical precedent that um that it's a ceremonial thing that um can be used to to express values or to highlight important things in the community. Uh my my reason for putting this on here is is certainly not to um to bring partisan politics in or to start fights with anybody. I I've listed in here the the types of proclamations that I believe are appropriate ones that show our our values to the community that we um we were elected by people here and we should be able to to show these are the values of the people that you elected and this is what we care about. I don't think the the proclamations that I in intend to do are necessarily in conflict with the policy, at least not as I read it. I think everything that I would like to do kind of fits within this. Um, but the the reason this was set up is is primarily to give direction to staff about how to handle requests for proclamations coming from residents. And my uh that was the preference of the previous mayor. My preference is to handle this directly, to speak to the citizens and say, "If you if there's something that you care about, bring it to me." and and I'm I'm um willing to listen and and look forward to that sort of conversation. So, I'm not looking to obviously start any any fights with this. Um and I think there's a couple directions we could go with this. One is uh we could just repeal the policy and leave it to the discretion of the mayor, which is the default. I think that's

that's my preference. Um but we could also amend the policy or we could have uh direction from council that you don't consider the things that I've listed to be in conflict and we could leave it in place. Uh, I'm I'm flexible in how you want to approach this, but wanted to make sure we start this discussion as to what proclamations will be, what they'll be used for. May I ask two clarifying questions before we get into discussion of staff? Um, in the packet, it says that in 2001, the city council adopted a policy. Have we had more policies before the one that's listed in the packet in 2021? Were there other additions of this? I don't believe we had a previous proclamation.

Okay, that was before my guess is whoever typed in 2001 meant to type in 2021 is my guess. I don't which makes sense because I feel like 2000 was what like 10 years ago or something like the '8s was. Yeah. So that makes sense. The actual signed administrative policy does say 2020.

Yeah, I saw that. But in the note in the discussion section, it says 2001. Um, and then I did some state statute reading. And my interpretation of the way that Dylan's rule works and the state statute regarding us and the mayor is that if there's not a state statute about the proclamation, then we need to have an ordinance about the proclamation to allow the mayor the authority to give a proclamation. And so my concern was in the request of repealing the proclamation ordinance in its entirety, do we actually remove the authority of the mayor to give proclamations and thus should the discussion be about how we would like to amend it if we want to amend it?

Um, I don't think so. The the proclamations have are just more of a recognized ceremonial uh bid. Again, I don't know that there's any state as the mayor alluded to, there's no state code on proclamations. It's not listed as a mayoral power or not, but it's just a generally recognized uh as the chief administrative officer uh the executive of the entity um that they can do those subject to council's policym ability. So, we don't as a council need to create an ordinance to give him that authority. No. Okie do.

All right. Well, I have opinions, but those were my questions. So, you guys can we can chitchat about it. Chitchat. Chitchat. Yeah, let's do that. While we're asking staff questions, I don't I could not find any other cities that have a similar policy when this was adopted or since or since during this discussion. Did you find any cities that have a mayor limiting policy on on proclamations? Seems very unusual. There are policies. I know the city of Boise has a proclamation policy. Um, but I'm not sure which ones were looked at or considered. Thank you.

I like the idea of having a policy. I think that we should change it from being this is what we can do and this is what we can't do to just having a framework that says it's ceremonial and non-binding. It's issued at the mayor's discretion. It's limited to events with local relevance and it does not it's not an endorsement by the city government. I would also prefer to have a policy of some sort because that's generally what protects us. Cordelane does proclamations all the time. What's their policy? I don't want to be Cordelane. [laughter] That's my policy, too. [snorts]

Well, if there was a a formal motion, you know, councelor Stigler's idea, I think, is great that, you know, if there was something that loosened this up. I'm looking at the restrictions currently and it says okay we can't have anything to recognize any sort of national day uh no independence day no that would mean no America 250 celebration um uh no no personal birthday so if your mom is turning 105 we can't the mayor can't issue a proclamation saying happy birthday nothing for uh personal celebrations like you know uh supposing um a Pearl Harbor vet was here or whatever we wanted to recogn we we can't do any of it according to this policy. So it's it's definitely entirely too restrictive um and u and somewhat perplexing in that um in that regard. So um if if there was a motion to amend it and and loosen it up substantially to where the mayor had um more flexibility, I would I'd entertain that. But frankly, I don't see it being necessary. As the the chief officer of the city, the executive, why wouldn't we have the same rights and abilities as every other city around us um to issue or not issue those? Doesn't seem to be a problem for Celane or Hayden or Rather or any of the other cities around us.

So, you mentioned the the celebration of the 250 year anniversary of the country, right? Wouldn't that fall under civic promotion as an allowable proclamation? [clears throat] I don't think so. Proclamations will not be issued for national independence or republic days. Well, maybe I'm not seeing that. I mean, at least not by the mayor. I don't know if maybe the council could do something under that. But,

um, my take on this is I I do agree that we should have a policy. Um, I think the possibly the verbiage of who what the proclamation means. Uh because the way I read this is that it's the city itself that is making the proclamation and what from the way I'm reading or understanding what you're wanting to do, it seems more of a personal proclamation. So I would really like to define what city proclamations represent as a starting point. Well, um I I'm have no intention to be doing proclamations when it happens to be my anniversary or for for political days like that. So I I don't I don't think that's a a personal thing as much. the mayor is the only elected official who can speak on behalf of the city.

And that's a unique characteristic. And I think that's part of the part of the duties of the mayor, I think, is to represent the city to the people who elected us to be here. And and that's my intention with this is to be able to show these are these are our values. These are the things we care about. Whether it's um an Arbor Day proclamation or some of the proclamations that we are um either required or highly encouraged to do. Um, for example, there's the fair housing proclamation that we do so that we are eligible for the CDBG block grants. Um, and there are a couple others that are are given to us to read to to maintain eligibility for various things. But then there are also those that are elective that we can choose to do. Um, and the purpose of those really, I think, is to show who we are. Um, and to to represent that to to the residents here.

I would agree with that. I think that actually underscores the reason I think we do need to have a framework upon it because um I think it opens the possibility of without any kind of any type of proclamation or speech that we have especially as elected official and and the mayor being the only one that is designated to do that would require some guidelines and and kind of guard rails to keep it appropriate. Um I'm not questioning your intent. I'm actually kind of looking more beyond your term of how will this play out in the future if we have a mayor of a different of a different intent. Um so while I do think um I do think that the that we do need to have a policy, I think we could probably loosen it up a little bit just to make sure that there there isn't some anomaly that comes along and does and says something that would not be representative of the city. So, I I do certainly appreciate the the comments of councelor Ziggler just now that I think that the city council as a as a governing body ought to be able to put guide rails on uh future uh to protect uh the city from what we want u our mayor to represent uh in some future time. not certainly not looking at what Mayor Wesland is considering right now or or who he is or making a judgment about Mayor Wesland, but I I could see the reason why we would want to be able to put guidelines on what the mayor can and cannot or more of a a guiding principle so to speak. Uh certainly not a you can only have these types of proclamations, you can't have these. Certainly having a more broad framework as proposed by councelor Stigle leader. I think the somewhat of a counterpoint to that is that is what Mayor Wesson already alluded to is that he as our

elected mayor, he was elected for a reason because he does represent what the people of Post policy the voters who elected him uh what they want to see in their mayor. And I I think that the current policy as it's written, I [clears throat] think um it it certainly should not stay in place as it's written. um whether there was a motion to amend it or certainly as the request is now to to repeal the policy. I think that would be prudent because contrary to what I know some of the comments have been the people of Post Falls are concerned about more than just uh growth and development. Certainly those are very important things that face this city but that's that's not the end of it. U city postfalls is not a machine. Uh there's other concerns that its citizens face. Um and looking at the issues that other cities around the country face, I think those are concerns that our own citizens are afraid might come into play here in the city of Post Falls. I know that certainly the other council members have had plenty of people um especially during the the campaign cycles that have expressed concerns about other issues like I know councelor Luca had some very choice questions for me when I stood before this council um such as uh men in women's restrooms like we that's a concern that a lot of people have that I don't think really is something that this city has dealt with but I think um that may be the type of thing that doesn't necessarily directly have a relationship to the city of Post Falls or that might otherwise fit within one of these uh precluded areas for proclamations under this policy. But I think the people post walls are concerned about more than just growth and development or uh in the quarterly press there was a a letter to

the editor written that said about more important matters was what it was uh the the ph the phrase used in that letter. I think people are concerned more than about more issues than just the important matters. So, I would like to see the the mayor be able to give proclamations in in on these other issues. Uh, I'm certainly open to the idea of a amended proclamation policy, but I definitely think that this policy as written should be repealed. Other thoughts?

Just a brief rebuttal argument, please. Um, I think we're on the same page on on what we kind of want this to look like and and I do agree with you that the mayor is elected by the people to represent the city, but so are the other six of us. Uh, we also have a duty to serve them in the way that they elected us for, and I think this is a classic example of that.

I guess final thoughts, I I'm completely open to revisiting the policy, um, but I think we need to have one. So, I would I would oppose repealing it entirely. Um, but I'm certainly open to bringing it back. I'd be happy to be involved in the revision process. Um, it's the it's the outright repeal I think leaves us uh leaves the taxpayers too exposed to potential risk of of not having any anything to point at. And see, you know, I I didn't read this one because of this. I think that that leaves us open.

Ultimately, it's it's really mayoral discretion. my and the the purpose of the policy was to give staff guidance so that the mayor wasn't dealing with every policy that comes in and ultimately whether the the the proclamation gets read or not is going to be at the discretion of the mayor. So I think that's kind of baked into the cake but you your points are taken. I think that's well if it's purely under the discretion of the mayor then there is no need to repeal it either.

Yeah. Yeah, my my my own view is that the the policy was kind of an awkward tool to accomplish giving staff direction over a ceremonial part of the meeting. I I I would think that a memo from the mayor to staff would be a more suiting mechanism if if staff needs direction about how to handle things more akin to an executive order or something. That that's kind of where my mind goes with it. But certainly there's room for a council policy. Um my my suggestion would be that if if we are to maintain a policy, the policy should be doing something should have a purpose. If the policy just says the mayor can do whatever he wants, then what's the purpose of the policy?

We're not we're not talking about saying writing an ordinance that says the mayor can do whatever he wants. So don't don't you worry about that.

And I guess part of a rebutt too is that the mayor is, you know, may be the only person that could speak for the city. Uh but also any city policies uh that have passed, city ordinances that are passed are all passed by an elected council. So um we matter of fact have policies in place that say if a council member is on a say outside committee and representing the city that council member cannot go rogue and and go against whatever the city policy says because that policy was passed by uh a majority of an elected council. I think the same applies to the mayor. Um, again, not so worried, not so much worried about you, but who knows what the future brings, right? And I'm always trying to think long term. If you get a mayor that just goes completely rogue and says I speak for the city and something completely out in left field, then that does that mayor really speak for the city or not. There's I think as as a legisl as a legislative body, it's contingent upon us to put some guard rails to prevent somebody from going absolutely left left field hog wild crazy, you know, not expect I'm not expecting him to do that.

It's good.

Well, that's a that's a legitimate concern, but if a mayor was that reckless, would this policy restrain them? I mean, there's nothing from keeping the mayor currently of saying that, you know, I I proclaim today Green Martian Day, and he could say it today. It just wouldn't be official, right? But as a cause of action, wouldn't he be opening himself up because it it would be a proclamation against a written policy? So somebody could say, "Hey, I'm opposed to Green Martians and he issued he said this and it's a it's a it's antithetical to our policy. So now you violated your own policy and now I'm going to sue you, right?" Versus if we have no policy, he's able to say whatever and he's not violating anything. Um so really it seems like it's a either way we we are assuming some risk, right? Um, I would I I think that based on the comments I've heard, I think this has the the votes to pass tonight. Um, however, um, if somebody wants to rather propose to, you know, amend it, I I'd be fine as long as it really opens up the flexibility and that some of these things that are restrictive for almost no reason that I can see. Um, I mean, I think some of them are like antithetical to to our values as um as freedom loving people. Like, you know, you can only do one per topic per year or one per organization per year, like this is way too restrictive. uh um if if he was going to issue a proclamation in favor of the something at at some organization that's benefiting the city or whatever and but it's otherwise um otherwise restricted in the policy who cares if it's once or three times a

year or whatever and and like I said the cities around us don't do this I mean Celane passed both a pride resolution and a traditional values uh resolution within a month

within a month of each other. Right? So, and I don't recall any lawsuits uh even though there was a lot of contention around those issues. So, I I think that it's it's fine to repeal it and be like every other city. Um, where people elect an executive and that executive says things that that some people agree with and other people don't. And as we know, every decision is like that. Every decision we make, there's people that are angry about it and there's people that love it and there's people in the middle. So, I I'm I'm fine voting to repeal this, but uh if somebody had some other verbiage they wanted us to consider, fine. But otherwise, um I think that's uh it's fine to repeal it.

I just want to you guys all got to read something tonight. I wanted to read something. [laughter] about uh one one or two weeks ago there was an editorial in the CDA press um and it was talking addressing directly Mayor Wesland and um what he wants to do here in the city um and I will just read part of it. So the the the first part was about invocations. This part is about proclamations. Um and um I believe this is from Bill uh Wesland's second proposal, repealing a policy that restricts proclamations involving political or religious issues, also reflects his desire to engage more openly with the public, which again we see as a good thing. Adopted in 2001 to help the city avoid controversy, the policy may have once served a purpose, but it it no longer fits the tone or expectations of today's postfalls. Westland is correct that pro proclamations are largely ceremonial and a way to spotlight something that otherwise might slip by unnoticed. Allowing the mayor to issue them without outdated constraints simply align postfalls with common practice in many American cities. The kinds of proclamations Westland envisions offer [snorts] opportunities to highlight community values, not divide the community. And importantly, proclamations do not carry the weight of law or policy. their statements of recognition and celebration. The city loses nothing by allowing them. The residents gain a mayor more responsive to their requests. Mayor Wesland has been clear. He wants Postf Falls to be bold. He has said as much. He wants it to celebrate what it stands for rather than avoid topics deemed sensitive over 25 years ago. Whether one agrees with every proposal, it's not the point. The point is that he is leading. The council should allow him to do what postfalls voters elected him to do.

It's beautiful little turn of phrase at the end. That's very nice. Yeah. So for me that sums it up and I support it.

May I have one last comment since I started? Um, I do feel like we need an ordinance. That's my non-legal interpretation of how the statutes work. And I would like an ordinance to officially say that council agrees to give you the power to make a proclamation. And I think that that's a nice cohesive statement to our community as well. While the mayor may be making the decision, the council has agreed that that's something that we value. um to the point of valuing proclamations. I think that the current ordinance um is uh reduces proclamations essentially to just pre-approved public service announcements. Um it it's so neutral. It sounds like kind of awareness campaigns and safe civic recognition while excluding more meaningful expressions that reflect lived values, concerns, and the identity of our community. So when proclamations are stripped of anything substant substantive I shouldn't have written that word down ex or expressive in character um in order to avoid controversy um their practical purpose really to me becomes unclear and kind of without meeting a proclamation that cannot meaningfully acknowledge significant ideas cultural moments or community concerns ceases to be a genuine act of civic recognition and instead becomes something that's just a feel good gesture. Um, and that dim diminishes both their symbolic weight and their public re reence relevance. So, I agree with Mr. Mallaloy and Mr. Ziggler. I do think that we need um the ordinance in in code here. Again, I would be happy to send them to the city if if this is what we choose to do. I think it should be ceremonial and non-binding, issued at the mayor's discretion, limited to events with local relevance, and not an official endorsement by the city government. Um,

I think that if we had this framework, we could restore proclamations to their traditional function, which is symbolic acknowledgement of issues um that our city head wants to talk about without creating binding policy, institutional endorsements or legal obligations. So, I think this would respect local control, clarify that proclamations are expressive rather than regulatory, and avoids the need for us to prejudge everything as being safe or permissible. So, am I just in on the in between? I've been in the majority all night, which is super weird. So, I need to get back on the other side, I think. Well, I think we're somewhat split on exactly how to handle this. So, um, somebody can float a motion and we'll see what happens.

Quickly, I just clarify. Um, are you saying policy or ordinance? Wait, what is this? Is this a policy? Oh, turkeys. I'm so sorry. I mean policy. Anytime I said ordinance, just hear policy. Thank you. Okay. Just saying autoinsert policy. Yeah. Yeah. I would like to comment a little bit on um Councilman PL's reading of that article. I think there's some inaccuracies in there. I think one of them we already addressed with the timing of the placement of this policy was not over 25 years ago. It was six years ago, five years ago. Um so and and secondly sic in parenthesis then

yeah no not your misquote a misquote of the of the information that you're you're presenting. So I think it's important and and I also think that you know looking beyond what is in the text trying to understand why this policy was put in place. I think I think it's a it's a it's a topic we should probably address and and from what I understand of why this this policy was put in place in that screening process of the of the city staff was because of the volume of applications for proclamations that was coming across the mayor's desk. Um and I think it is important to recognize and and uh having been an executive myself of of really having identify the best use of the executive's time. Is it in filing through hundreds, probably hundreds of proclamation requests and determining which ones that you really want to do or delegating that screening process to city staff? And I think that's the that's probably the spirit behind this. Um, I do think that the verbiage is too restrictive, but but I do think there's something to be said about making sure that the executive is performing executive function, not um, for lack of a better way of saying it, wasting time on superfluous requests that may not apply or or are just rejected outright.

Fair enough. My only comment on that is that I I would prefer not to spend taxpayer money in the way of staff time reviewing proclamation requests from citizens that are ceremonial in nature and not strictly the city's business. I would rather just deal with that myself. Uh and I'm happy telling people no. Well, I think I think the point is that you're also spending taxpayer time doing it yourself. So, I don't know if that really goes around the issue. It's more of a framework of multiple people being able to say, "We're going to reject that outright without having to take the attention and time of the executive."

Yeah. I I believe to to that point, I believe the staff time was reduced by the implementation of the policy because it allowed just sort of we're not even going to do not pass go. Yeah. And part of it it kind of has a has a preventative effect too when when the policy is well known and published it it kind of has the effect of a self a self-regulation of those submitted proclamations.

I would agree that it's nice to have the policy to let people requesting a proclamation know what um what it is that we're doing with them. So having local relevance I think is important. Okay. Then then let me suggest this. I I think we um if we took a vote on repealing it directly, we'd probably end up with a split council and I would break the tie in favor. But I would much rather have this be something that we're all on the same page on. And so if that means having a policy and and revisiting it to loosen it up, I think we've had enough direction um to be able to to revise this and bring it back. And so if you would like to float that motion, I'd be happy with that.

Oh, I don't usually do this. Okay. I would move to No. Do I have to make a motion or isn't this just would it be a motion to table the request for repeal? It would be a motion to direct staff. Staff. Okay. I move to direct staff to review our proclamation policy and bring options back to council as they see appropriate. Second. Great. Works for us. Motion in a second. Um, last comments. I would like to know. I know C councelor Stigleer made a comment about a requirement for an ordinance to authorize the mayor to give proclamations. I would like clarification on that from council.

I was told that I was wrong. I can clarify that for you. [laughter] Yeah, I think the clarification it was to amend the policy um in accordance with the discussion. Uh and that's what staff will come back. Um, I do not believe we need an ordinance authorizing the mayor the ability to issue proclamations. Thank you. U, Mr. Mayor, I need to declare a conflict of interest. My wife's birthday is coming up and I'd like a [laughter] We'll make sure she's called out specifically in the revised policy. All right, we have a motion and a second. I think we're ready for the roll call. Ziggler I. PL I

Luca I Mallaloy I Stigler leader I Mosby I motion passes. Thank you. [clears throat] Next item up is a amendment to personnel policy holiday schedule. This is a change that I requested. Effectively this is removing Junth from the list of city holidays and restoring Columbus Day which I believe is a more appropriate holiday honoring our American heritage. I move to approve the amendment to the personnel policy and holiday schedule. Second. Second. A motion in multiple seconds. Further discussion. I do have one comment on it. Oh, sorry.

Uh Junth celebrates the actual end of slavery in the United States and the abolition of slavery I believe is one of the crowning achievements of Western civilization is certainly worthy of celebration. On the the flip side, North America in as we know it in the United States entirely would not exist if it were not for the expeditions of Christopher Columbus and other European explorers which are also worth celebrating. So I don't know if you would consider doing an every other year type of thing, but I think both are very relevant to our our history and and worth celebrating.

I don't want to change the holiday schedule up. I think that's a lot of complexity. Uh my own view is that Junth is is something that nobody had heard of until 5 years ago and was pushed for political purposes. Uh and so I'm not in favor of having that in.

Cool. I would agree with Council Malloy. I think just because we didn't know about it doesn't mean it's not relevant. Um, I do think that I would completely echo councelor Moy's sentiments that the elimination of slavery, which was common worldwide up until the rise of Western civilization and unfortunately is still very common today, is something that we should definitely celebrate and hang our hat on. Um, and not something that just because we didn't know about or was more or or was made less relevant doesn't make it relevant to today. Um, so I would definitely advocate for some type of arrangement. I don't think these two need to be mutually exclusive. Right. Further thoughts?

Um well, Mr. Mayor, I I also agree that it's it's incredibly important that we we recognize uh civil rights achievement and um the history of Junth is a day. is just the day that those civil rights achievements uh the news reached um the freed slaves in Texas. Um I think that we have a day that honors the civil rights achievements um of African-Americans in Martin Luther King Jr's birthday. Um, and I and I believe that the two can be celebrated together. I also believe that it's important to note that Columbus Day was not initially a holiday um just because of Christopher Columbus. It was a civil rights movement in response to a very dark time uh of of persecution against Italian-Americans. And there was in fact a lynching that led to this where several Italian-Americans were murdered. Um I believe it was in Louisiana, but I'm not sure. and and as a result the the country decided to move forward with Columbus Day to underscore the contributions and the civil rights of Italian-Americans which today we view Italian-Americans as quote white Europeans at the time that was not the case. [snorts] My grandmother, my maternal grandmother, uh was from

Alabama. Uh she I will just say that her maiden name was white and that's the culture that they came from. My grandfather who she elected to marry was that last name of Gondola and was very very 100% Italian um Italian-American I should I should say. um his parents immigrated and my grandfather was referred to for many years as that Italian by his mother-in-law and that just underscores the civil rights struggle that I think gets lost in the louder civil rights struggle of others that just solely based on the fact that they're they're you know that they are African-American or Hispanic American or some other category. But we have in an effort to recognize indigenous people or to rush to to recognize the very real struggles of other groups. I think we have we have downplayed the struggles of Italian-Americans and the reason why this holiday was initially recognized. And so I just hope that we don't whatever decision we make here tonight that we don't lose sight of that. Um because in our modern framework, we are we're talking about groups that get more press because now Italian-Americans are seen as more mainstream. But I can just say that in the 1930s and 40s when my my own grandparents were married, that was just not the case. It was very much a discriminatory environment. and my grandfather was was a a garbage collector and that was considered about

the type of job that an Italian should have. So, further thoughts? Okay, we have a motion on the floor and a second already. So, roll call, please. I'm sorry. Can we repeat the motion? Oh, the Yeah, the Who made it? You did. Oh, you want me to say repeat it? Yeah. Oh, thank you. I move to approve the amendment to the personnel policy holiday schedule. What we're voting on? Okay. A motion in a second. Roll call, please. Pl I. Luca, I. Malloy. Nay. Again, not against Columbus Day. Just would like to see them both recognized. [snorts] Stigleer. I. Mosby. I. Ziggler.

Nay. Motion passes. Thank you. Next up is the Chapen Building RFP discussion. Good evening, Mar and council. Good evening. Let's try a slideshow.

So, I'm here tonight to talk about the Chapen Building. For those who are not aware which building that is, it's the building at 4th and Spokane Street. Um, in 1979 that building was occupied by the Postf Falls Police Department who remained there until 2003. They moved over to the current facility in 2003 and the park and recck department moved into the Chapen building at that time. They remained in there until 2008 when the new city hall came on campus. And at that time there was a lease agreement or a license to use agreement with the Postfalls Historical Society to operate a museum in the facility. And they have been in the facility since that time. Um to make you aware, we did meet with Postf Falls Historical Society. They're if the council direct us to move forward with an RFP, they are planning to submit. Um, and they had some excellent ideas on what they might want to do with the facilities and they were open to moving some of the historical artifacts to other sites also to make them more readily available to the public. Right now the facility is only open I think it's about three days a week during the summer Memorial Day maybe to Labor Day um over the summer. We also talked just about revitalizing the downtown area here and getting more folks in the downtown area and walking around and having the ability to go into that facility. So, at the time in the 2008 agreement, it was for the purpose of a museum and it's been used as that such. They um were given rent forgiveness and so when we calculate that, we took with a real estate uh developer and they provided us some lease rates for those years. It's about $400,000 in uh value if the city were leasing that facility out um under from 2008 to current. And this license agreement is at the duration of the city's discretion. So

we have had some challenges with the building. Uh there was the mold and water mitigation that happened a few years ago and we worked with the Post Falls Historical Society to they actually hired a contractor to come in and do some of the cleanup. basically that underneath crawl space area is unusable. There continues to be some leaking that goes on down there. Um, in my mind wouldn't be easy just to like seal that off, but I'm told by folks that is not how you fix it and it actually makes it worse. And so if you were to seal off the interior of those walls, what happens is those walls are porous and they would absorb more water. the the actual walls of the cellar would deteriorate at a faster rate than they do currently. And [snorts] so going in and just sealing off that is not a solution. Our public works department has worked diligently trying to discover where the leak is. And we've been unable to determine exactly where the leak comes in, but if you walk on the grass next to that building during the summer, it's always soggy. And they thought maybe it was this little water feature out front. We've dried that up.

[snorts]

Um they've done some changes to the sprinkler system and it when the sprinkler system is shut off the water still is there. So it's not just the sprinkler system. Um with all of this, the historical society had approached the city a couple years ago and asked us to take on more of the maintenance of the facility. They don't have the current financial resources to maintain that building in the manner in which was agreed to in 2008. Um, we are, I think, as you start to see staff coming forward with more and more proposals, there'll be more things coming forward where we're trying to evaluate what's going on with revenues and expenditures. We're entering a challenging time when we look at that next uh council meeting. The workshop is the long-range financial plan that we'll be bringing forward. It's not a lovely picture, I would say. And so what we're trying to do is come up with solutions that potentially we can look at to either reduce expenditures or increase revenues. Also, can we provide a better service level to the community is that's always in the in the background of what we're looking at. Um so this um opportunity would be for proposals that provide a community value while continuing to preserve the integrity of that building. um expand on our downtown character, are compatible with historic character of the building, activate the building, make more of a uh community space as make the building more sustainable in the maintenance of the facility. And we wanted to potentially be compatible with the current use. So, we talked with the historical society on Friday. One of the things would be if you could have it opened up like for a coffee shop and then have part of their materials also available than the hours it was open could be longer. Kim had some ideas about potentially um park and wreck um operating the facility. Downside to that would be that's still

trying to figure out city resource-wise how we would fund that. she did have some ideas about some of the funding that's available through the state for historic preservation and whether or not those dollars could be used towards maintenance of the facility. So again, they'll be working on that if we decide to proceed forward on a proposal to show whether or not those dollars could be used towards this this building. Um so if the council is desirous of us to go out and look and see what would happen uh we would post the RFP on our website share it on social media and we would um send out a press release letters. So in talking to John Beichum who I want to say he also had a great thing to say he's I wrote this down. He said this will give the opportunity to provide what things the community are willing to what rise up and support and I think this does give that opportunity. So, um, to provide for someone to fill out a full full RFP when this is something that just comes across their radar takes some time. And so, what we're proposing is that we'd give six weeks to do a letter of interest. We'd accept those and then we know, are there three people interested or are there one? Is the historical society the only one interested? Give staff a better idea of what we're looking at. and then they would have three months to come up with what that proposal might look like. They could go into their due diligence and find out I had this really great idea. It's just not going to pencil, but at least we kind of have encapsulated the number of proposals we would receive. So, the recommendation we would have would be six weeks for them to give a letter of interest and then we would work with anyone providing a letter of interest that we felt met the criteria that we're looking to to have with that facility. and they would have three months to provide that full proposal to us. At that time, the proposals would be um

submitted to council for review. If the council is not wanting to move that direction, we would actually negotiate with Falls historical society and look at what the needs are for the maintenance of the building and submit that within the fiscal year 27 budget um request. looking at maintenance. We'd probably look at a five-year maintenance period for the facility and come up with those estimates. We'd also be accepting any other ideas that you might have on this building. So, side note, we will continue to try to figure out the water leak. Um, that is something that we know ultimately for this campus needs to be discovered and and solved. So right now one of the things that we talked about is I you have a grant I think coming up after this proposal or maybe the efficiency study is next and the grant proposal it's for a monument on this campus and one of the things we've told them is it actually can't go there on that site next to the building because of the water issue. There's no way to have a something that of that weight on that grassy soil. So

I'm open to questions. Is this building on the National Historic Registry? The um historical society is working on that. Um we signed some documents probably a year to two years ago authorizing them to submit for it. So they are currently working on it. If there's approval of that, does that open any opportunity for funding for upkeep or maintenance? And then secondly, if it is approved as well, is there a restriction on any changes that a possible tenant would want to make?

There are no restrictions. Um it's just really a ceremonial thing and um it doesn't open up any grants that I'm aware of that wouldn't currently um be available. There are some grants that you need historic preservation commission for but the building itself would not need to be on the registry for them.

Okay. I think the building is certainly worth preserving and the best and perhaps only way to sustainably preserve it is to find ways for it to generate revenue. So, um I'm in support of the proposal for RFP is just if nothing else to see what comes back. If if nothing comes back that's that fits the the goals of the city to preserve it and to uh have an area for the public to learn about our history, then then we can go down the uh further negotiations or or what now. But I think it doesn't hurt to see what interest is out there to give the community the best shot at preserving that building. I also like the idea of seeking u letters of interest so we're not wasting anyone's time with putting together a comprehensive proposal if if they're going to be be one among many and there's no chance or what have you. I think it's a good idea to do that. But I think it would also be important that in however it's solicited that identifying that there's some maintenance needs and having that be part of the discussion might be a good idea because if whoever's coming in with a proposal has an idea of how they can perform those um to save costs to the city. I think that that would be a good benefit. Uh I'd like to echo what uh council Malloy stated. Uh I think it's an important building. It's important part of our history and I think it's important to preserve it.

That's all. Thank you.

I also think our historical society is important and I know they come and speak to us often um are very passionate about our community in a way that I I I'm really appreciative of. And so if what I'm understanding is these RFPs are requests for other people to come and present to the city how they would use the building potentially instead of the historical society. And I understand the need for that um from the perspective really of finances. But I I would also like to express that probably as a council we are immensely um appreciative of the work that that historical society does. And should we choose one of these RFPs, I would like to make sure that we work closely with the historical society to find a plan that either relocates them or allows them to work with whoever we choose to put in that building.

I'd agree. Thank you. I think that the work that they do is critical. The history is critical that people understand especially if you're a recent transplant to post falls to know that

you know uh it didn't it didn't look like this a few years ago and it and the people that sacrificed a lot to get us to where we are a long time ago that people don't recognize their names. I I'm just very appreciative of that and I and I would love to see whatever use this business has honor that tradition that that those uh people in the historical society have have uh put in a lot of time on. Um, and perhaps that is some sort of historical use that's also a commercial use that can sustain it. Because the flip side of that is I don't think that the city should be u subsidizing the museum um because that's not I I don't think that's our function. But um but certainly um doing whatever we can to make it possible for them to to exhibit those collections whether it's here in our rotunda or somewhere else. I think the the North Idaho Museum that has a new facility, you know, maybe we would get more exposure for Postf Falls history if our collection was part of theirs and our volunteers could join forces with theirs or something like that. Um so I really look forward to what ideas are presented and I hope that the what is conveyed from tonight to the historical society is yes one our appreciation and two our shared values of preserving what they have uh curated all these years and making sure that that collection is preserved and it is available for people to see and hopefully to see more often than one day a week or by appointment.

Thank you. All right, I think we're ready for a motion. What would the motion be? Uh to present I would move to direct staff to pro to proceed uh with the RFP process related to the chap building. Second motion in a second. Further discussion. Roll call, please. Luca, hi. Malloy. Hi. Sig leader. I Mosby. Hi. Ziggler. Hi. Clue. I

motion passes. Thank you. Next up, streets division operational efficiency study. And I'll give a little bit of background here and then and then you can talk. Um the one of the big things on my mind is the the budget difficulties that I see coming for the next several years. It's not a great picture and it's not going to get better. uh we're going to have some very difficult decisions to make going into budget seasons that we're likely going to have to start um looking at areas to cut services and and um do what we need to do to keep the ship afloat. It's going to be difficult. And one of my frustrations with doing any sort of municipal budget like this is if we don't have data on which to back up the decisions that we're making, it kind of feels like is it just whoever's, you know, crying the loudest or are we doing a round robin, you know, you get your person this year and you get your person next year. I would like to have data to back up the decisions that we make when we have all these different competing interests and very finite resources. And so that that's been a something that's on my mind of how do we get this sort of data and one aspect of this is working with the department heads to establish RF u to establish KPIs to track how is the department doing um how would we know if something's going wrong how do we measure success and so we're working on that internally but another component of that is just doing this sort of checkup to know where each department stands in terms of staffing and workload um and so that that was that was on my mind and then Mr. Williams of Star of the Sea Consulting approached me to offer services doing this this exact type of manpower analysis and and so he's here today to to present a little bit about what he could provide. I think this is a direction that's important for us to look at going with. Uh and so we'll we'll hear from him and then you can ask him any questions and then we'll make a decision about where we want to go with this. And I'll say the uh proposal we have here is to just sort of put our toe in the water a little bit to test it out by picking one division

within a department to take just streets and do a smaller project to test that out because I'm very wary of going out to bid for some massive consultant contract and spending hundreds of thousands of dollars if we don't know what we're going to do. And so I would rather do an approach where we're we're kind of testing it out. We're testing the water a little bit. and the um I think the the money spent on testing something out is sometimes less than what you would spend if you go through a longer process anyway. Just what what do we need to do to learn what we need to learn? So, this is uh this is for your consideration. Mr. Williams, I appreciate that, Mr. Mayor. Thank you, councel. Um just real [clears throat] quick before I get into it, it was very, very cool to watch the process work out with everybody deliberating all the things you guys talked about. Super super cool. So, from someone not up there, someone back here, uh, good job. Very, very well respected from my side of the table. Um, I appreciate the mayor entertaining the idea and bringing it up. It aligns with his vision and his goals for the city and the staff uh having meetings with me separate before bringing this to you guys. Um, so, and I'm not the best public speaker, so I have my notes, so hopefully you guys can bear with Neither is Joe. So,

exactly. And and the presentation will take about 45 minutes. So, hopefully you guys can buckle in [laughter] motion for recess. And I got to work figure out how to use this thing.

All right. Okay. So, the objective is to establish a validated objective workload and staffing baseline using taskbased analysis. In practical terms, this means identifying what work is performed and what drives the work and how it translates into required labor hours. So this approach aligns with national public sector performance management best practices and provides a defensible planning foundation. So section we got the scope section. The scope is intentionally focused exclusively on the streets division operations. So, we're talking about scope creep. When we talk about the contract and this study, it's specifically for streets. So, that we're going to focus in on that. We're not going to have to bleed into other departments and kind of see like we're talking about other contracts where it's well, we're now we're doing this. Is that more money? Right? The work includes workload quantification, driver validation, and staffing alignment and nothing more. The engagement is structured as a fixed fee professional service contract for $30,000 over an 8 to 12 week timeline. This is not a financial audit. It is not an HR performance review. It is an operational workload analysis. The recommended action is authorization to conduct the study and to conduct the analysis as scoped. To understand why this type of baseline is important at this stage, it helps to briefly discuss operational context. The streets division delivers mission critical services that directly affect safety, mobility, and infrastructure preservation. As the city grows, asset inventories expand. Lane miles, signage, drainage, infrastructure, snow routes.

Each additional asset creates reoccurring maintenance obligations. In ass in asset intensive departments, staffing often involves incrementally over time. Without a structured workload baseline, it becomes difficult to determine whether staffing levels reflect actual operational demand. This is why leadership requires a workload baseline to quantify what work is performed, what drives it, and how service levels translate mathematically into staffing requirements. The goal is to navigate operational complexity with confidence and clarity. All right, so now we're getting into a little bit of the beef of the bone, the methodology. There are two common ways municipal staffing studies are conducted. So on the slide there on the right, you've got the where's the there it is. You can't really see it, but the traditional approach, the traditional approach relies on generic ratios such as FTEEs per 10,00 population or broad pure averages, right? It's um it's not really mathematically calculated. It's very broadly associated and applied. The challenge with that method is that it ignores local service. Okay. It ignores local service level expectations, asset conditions, climate and operational realities. The approach proposed here is task based. We quantify actual work performed, pothole volumes, snow events, drainage cycles, and we convert [snorts] that into actual labor hours. We validate the productive year. So the 1760 is a number that is pretty common and I don't want you to get stuck up necessarily on that because that's depending on the calendar and staff hours and all that kind of stuff. So that number can be changed depending on

actual postfalls real real uh data and build staffing requirements from the bottom up. We do not import staffing numbers from other cities. We calculate them based on postfall's specific operational demands. The study follows a structured fourphase analytical process. Phase one is the initiation in data. We confirm scope. We establish access pathways and define the study plan. This ensures alignment before even any analysis begins. Should probably put that down so I don't keep my slides. Phase two is identification. We identify core services both reoccurring and non-reoccurring. And we distinguish distinguish direct mission work from support functions. And then we quantify in phase three. We quantify volumes and frequencies, how many events, how often, how much output, and apply the productive year standard to calculate required FTEES. And then finally, phase four is validation. We cross-check findings with subject matter experts. We model fiscal impact scenarios and we deliver a final report which the final report before it becomes final final would then go in front of the administration in front of the mayor. It would go in front of the division department head, right? It's a conversation, right? So no part of this is here's my analysis. Take it or leave it, right? All of this forms an informed conversation so that we can look at validating what we have. Benchmarking is used strictly as context, never to dictate staffing levels. Pier comparisons are only applied if the pier aligns across at least 15 different operational uh variables including lane miles, climate, asset mix, and funding

model. I think it's really common for consultants to give benchmarks and give um comparables that don't actually really compare, right? But it's just I'm going to put this in there. It's going to look pretty. But then when you look at it, sometimes you end up getting shelfware analysis or shelfware consulting packages because when you look at it, it's like, well, this city is completely different than mine. This makes no sense. So there's a threshold that we're talking about of these different benchmark variables [snorts] that are adjudicated so that we make sure we find peer cities that actually align to a certain degree. Pure data is introduced only if postfall specific data is inconclusive or to clarify operational context. But I think I think postfalls has a lot of data that we can get on its own. Before I show you the mechanics, I want to anchor this in the national best practices. Right? So because the council shouldn't have to take my word for it. It's not just me sitting up here. Everything that I do, everything that I'm presenting is based in some actual bigger methodology or some bigger um justification or mandate than just myself. So it's talking about the ICMA than the GFOA. So on the ICMA side, the emphasis is moving from intuition to measurable service and asset reality. And then on GFOA, the emphasis is fiscal stewardship. Documented drivers, documented assumptions, direct link between operational demand and budget decisions. The main point, this approach is not unusual. It's not experimental. It's consistent with how well-governed cities make operational decisions. The study is not a financial audit. We are analyzing operations. We're not going to balance the ledger. It's not an

HR performance review. We evaluate systems and tasks, not individual employee performance. It is not a classification study. We are not assessing compensation or rewriting job descriptions. And it is not a mandate. My findings as a consultant is to consult you in an advisory position to help support the leadership and to make your decisions with discretion. The scope boundary is intentional and it prevents the study from turning into something that creates fear, conflict or mission distraction. The goal is a neutral operational baseline, workload, drivers and then staffing alignment. All of these numbers here are just basically placeholders just to give you an idea of some examples. This is the first major output, a workload inventory. We document the mission essential task that street divisions performs and we distinguish between direct service and support functions. Each task gets an ID so it's traceable. We define the functional area. We write a clear task description. We assign the workload driver, the thing that causes the work to exist. And then we quantify the annual volume. For example, pothole repair can be driven by service requests and seasonal variability. Snow plowing is driven by snow events. Crack sealing is driven by lane miles. This is how we move beyond assumptions and we document exactly what drives the division's day. Next, we validate the drivers because it's easy for any organization to unintentionally overestimate workload when they only when the only source is perception. For each workload area, we define a primary driver and a secondary driver. Then we validate against independent sources, work orders, historical records, weather data, and operational logs. Snow is a great example. It's not just how many storms, it's also route

miles, miles expectations or service expectations, I'm sorry. We validate storms against independent weather records. So the model reflects reality. Validation ensures the model reflects reality, not just perceived pressure. Right? That goes along with that idea of we're growing so much, we have so much pressure, we have more people moving here, we need more staff. It's it's that idea that I mean Celane is also struggling with it as well. This is the math slide. We translate operational volumes into labor hours using city specific productivity assump assumptions. Sorry. For each functional area, we compute annual workload hours. Then we compare that against available productive hour per employee. This result is a calculated FTE requirement. Again, the 1760 is a placeholder. If post falls, it makes sense for it to be 2,000. It would be 2,000. That would change the math, but that's a specific number that I would use in my analysis. So, just use [snorts] that as a placeholder. The 1760 is a productive year baseline. It's not total paid time. It's the usable work time after accounting for leave, training, meetings, and unavoidable overhead. And I think actually when we talked about it, 1760 was pretty close. So, [snorts] the assumptions are not hidden. They're explicitly listed in an assumptions box. So the city can see, challenge, and adjust them if needed. The value is that it's traceable. Every staffing output ties back to a workload driver and a volume. Again, this is the conversation. It's not me doing something behind a closed door and making some magic sauce. It's open. It's a conversation. It's really truly a consulting. [snorts] This is the plan. The study reigns runs 8 to 12 weeks and is staged to control quality. So weeks one and two are kickoff and data readiness. This is

where we secure work orders, GIS and access pathways. Weeks 3 to six workload quantification and task structuring. 7 to 9 is staffing analysis and validation cross checks. And then 10 to 12 is final reporting and executive briefing. The timeline is realistic, but it really depends on timely access to the data and subject matter experts. That's standard for really any evidence-based workload study. So getting into it when approved, having the stuff up front and then also having the buyin from the streets division is really key to maintain the milestones and the project deadline. This timeline ensures we don't rush the foundational data work because that's ultimately where the credibility of the data is found. [snorts] This engagement is structured as a fixed fee professional service contract for $30,000. The figure includes all analytical labor, model development, documentation, reporting, council presentation, support within the streets division scope. It is not time and materials and it does not fluctuate based on findings. It is a defined scope with a defined deliverable. Payment terms are 50% on initial and 50% on delivery of study products. In order to maintain this cost structure and timeline, the city provides access to the work order maintenance records, GIS and lane mile asset data, and then relevant financial expenditure data. The study relies on the operational records and not assumptions. Okay, just a little bit about Star of the Sea. Uh we're a consulting boutique analytical firm that's based in North Idaho. So I am actually a service disabled veteran. So I am an SDVOB with this SBA. Our core competency is taskbased workload analysis and manpower modeling. The difference is precision. We bring

federal grade modeling rigor into a municipal governance. We do not import templates or apply generic ratios. And we build models that reflect your specific operational reality. The streets division is managing growth, asset expansion, and increasing service expectations. Just like you said in the opening, to manage that responsibly, leadership requires a validated baseline. This study provides the data, the defensibility, and the direction necessary for responsible fiscal planning. The recommended action is to authorize Star of the Sea Consulting to conduct the streets division operational efficiency and workforce analysis. It's a mouthful. As scoped. [snorts] And then finally, if authorized tonight, the next steps are straightforward. You would authorize the contract. We would work at hashing out the contract. And then we would go with the kickoff. We would do the data access, and then the project would begin. So, we'd make sure we have everything that we need ahead of time, and then we would go. The process is structured, time bound, and collaborative. I appreciate your time. Thank you for being patient with me. I know I kind of stumbled a couple times there. I told you I'm not the best public speaker. I'm better one-on-one, but um I appreciate it. So, thank you. That's what I've got. I'm open to questions. Mr. Williams, I have some questions for you.

This is a You talked about how this is a collaboration. I'm sorry, Mr. Mayor. Did you open the floor for us question? [laughter] Yes. Yes, please. Great. Thank you. I apologize. Uh you spoke about how this is a true collaboration. It's not you behind doors with, you know, whipping up some secret sauce. What does this consulting actually require of our staff? So, during this 8 to 12 weeks of time when you're going through these steps in the process with the streets division, what what would we expect our staff are going to be required to do to consult with you to give you the data that you need in order to perform your analysis?

Sure. Good question. So the idea is to not come into the house and then just start disrupting everything because obviously there's an operational need. We're in a season there's things that are happening which is why it's important to have the buyin from the supervisors from the division head and also have access to that data early on right so we're going to identify these are the GIS data this is the financial data that I need so all that is coming to me ahead of time so that I'm not wasting time saying hey I need access to this hey what this you know let's take the time to collect this GIS data now so you can expect that a lot of the frontload preparation of giving me access, establishing pathways, getting all the data, the historical stuff really limits the impact and the involvement that I would have individually with the people of the department, thus throwing off their whole flow. And then when it comes to the cross check and the validation part, that's where it'll be me going to the division's department head or the the person who runs the streets division and then probably one or two othermemes within the streets division and just being like, hey, this is what I'm seeing. This is what I'm getting. Does this make sense? Again, the conversation um am I missing it? Am I not understanding it? And I think actually in the proposal, some of the package, some of the paperwork that was given submitted, it kind of gives a little breakdown of hours approximately that are kind of expected with the different people and the different levels and the different phases. So that's in that should be in the package that was submitted that kind of gives a some estimates. Um, but the final point is I've been doing this for a while. Um, I did it on a federal level and when the buyin is there, when the value is there, when the preparation is done, it goes really smoothly. It goes really quickly. I'm not really getting

it in people's spaces too much. Um, but when those things are not in place, then there's a little bit more of a push and pull kind of thing. So, I hope that answers your question.

It does. Thank you. uh at the end of the day what you're providing you're defining a deliverable is information right like they're taking in information and analyzing it are you making recommendations like here's where improvements can be made or simply providing a like what is the end product that we can expect to receive is it a here's where you can improve or you are justifying the right you have the right number of manpower for this particular for the streets division or is it uh you can reduce the the manpower you can automate are you suggesting a like AI integration like what's what at the end of the day are you going to deliver as whether it's a recommendation or a yes you're doing a good job.

Sure. So validation is ultimately the key and the goal to the end of the study and that's an executive report and in that executive report is going to be a lot of things. It's going to be recommendations of and I'm I'm going to paraphrase and I'm going to nutshell just for the sake of time. Um throughout the process of this analysis this this process map has some redundancies, right? So I'm going to you you should streamline this here or this process map has these gaps in the process. So there's going to be process improvements gap gap identifications specifically of the processes. It's going to be a recommendation of FD and staffing levels that's ultimately taking that data applying the mathematical model to it and then having an optimized staffing level. So does the streets division have 17 people but they really need five or uh like 15 or do they have 17 and they need 20. So there is going to be that staffing level recommendation of a validated baseline. So it's going to come through as a report and then when we talk about people and FTEEs, there's going to be a financial like a fiscal side to it of we're talking about employees and positions, you know, I will I'll work with the finance and I'll work with the other departments to say what does that look like fiscally to implement? What does that mean? Right? What's the ramifications of um when we talk about people and and FTEEs and positions? So AI, I mean, I I really don't think that's going to be a thing, but I think it's just a really holistic third-party unbiased view of what's working and what's not and ultimately getting to a place where the city of Post Falls can look at the streets department and have a validated baseline to go back to the constituents and the taxpayers and say we're being good stewards

because we know that we're doing it right or we know we could do it better. And it's not just us saying that we're doing it in our own house within these four walls, but it's someone who's actually got the knowledge and expertise coming and raking recommendations. Nothing I say is going to be a you must do it because I don't have that power, that authority. And the whole process is a conversation going through this whole thing is a here's what I'm finding. help me understand. Am I getting it right? Am I seeing? Am I understanding it right? So, thank you. I do have other questions, but I want to let other other counselors talk, so I'm going to keep those for later.

Mr. Williams, if you would excuse me a moment of exordium before I set up my question here. Uh, well, I think the rest of council knows that data makes me nervous uh in a lot of ways. as not an executive of anything or anyone and just a normal workerbe who works in an environment and maybe my emergency officer friends can um understand this. We're constantly told from the powers that be that the data says that this is what your staffing should be at this time and we're pulling a staff member from this moment and moving them to this moment because this is what the numbers say is when you need this much staff or when you need this much staff. But what I know as the staff is that we're overstaffed at this time of day. We're understaffed generally at this time of day. And in a context where there are many uncontrollable variables like streets, um just it it makes me a little uneasy to just this idea that we're just going to look at the data. And I think your statement was that then the model reflects reality. So, I'm not saying that all of that is true and that you know that I'm 100% right and you're not, but I just would like you to give would like to give some perspective of what makes me nervous in my day job about um about trying to quantify the work that everyone does at the time of day and what's that worth? Um why are we doing streets first, a department that has an insane amount of variables of of which we cannot control, mainly the weather. um and not starting with maybe a smaller department that has more uh well- paced out and well- definfined uh workload through the year.

I'm good now. No, that was a question. Yeah, I'm sure some more might come up after I answer. [laughter]

Um so about the data and about the real life people and their positions. So through the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of studies that I did in the fiscal se in the federal sector with the army that's that's a real concern, right? That's that's something that you have to overcome when you walk into this because people hear manpower and they hear this tagline and it's they're going to come for our jobs. And I think it's a very real concern to have if someone's saying, "Well, if the numbers say this, then that's what we're only going to go off of is what the numbers say and then change people's lives." And I think that's kind of a really an HR approach.

I'm generally skeptical of that as well. So continue. Me too. Like Toby from the office, right? Um but the manpower so what I do is not so much just applying you have this many thousand miles of street lane so that divided by this makes this many people right when you take these really basic approaches to it that's when people suffer but the idea of this whole analysis and this whole study and this whole approach is teach me and tell me what you do because I have streets first. That That's not That was what was that was that's what was given to me

from staff. Mr. Beum, do you like this idea of you going first because it seems reasonable, but your department is very large and has very many variables and this if this is just a something we want to test out, I might advocate for a different department.

So, um John Beam, public works director, streets is under my purview. Um I was this this was something that was brought to my attention and a couple different options were proposed. Um one of them being streets. I said if this is a trial, if it works in streets, you could use it somewhere else. Streets does have a lot of complexity. It's not entirely based on efficiency. So, if this analysis is something that pans out like as a trial

and it works for streets, you can probably apply it to um one of our more simple divisions. Um streets also has when you really break it down only 23 people. So, that's about 10% of the city's workforce. So, it's not as complicated as say the police department which is going to have significantly more staff. So, does that answer your question? more complex staffing if like um yes it does. So instead of looking to trial this on a more simplistic area, we're looking to trial it on something that is in the middle so that we can find evidence that it would work in any department that we have. Okay, that's reasonable logic. Thank you.

I I got something to follow up on that. So as a speaking as a manpower analyst because of the complexity of streets right and the dynamic nature of their workload and obviously they have work orders that come in and there are things that do kind of fall into those buckets but there are seasonable things there's event driven things. Um it is more complex and it is very different than your traditional uh department that has quantifiable like workload, right?

Like um lawyers have they write this many papers and it takes this long or like the legal department or HR department or many other departments have a more And it's a lot easier to do. It's a lot quicker to do. It's a lot more efficient to do. It's a lot easier to do. So, I understand like when I was driving, my dad said, "If you can learn how to drive a stick, you can learn to drive anything." And the first car that I drove was a GMC 2500 extended cab, long bed, the thing was the size of a bus. And it's like, well, if you can parallel park and you can drive this, you can drive anything. So, I guess it's that kind of idea of because of the complexity.

Sure. No, that is reasonable logic. And that's what I was looking for in defense of our legal department. Maybe when you get to them, tell me how many emails I'm allowed to send in that year and that will help quantify their workload. So, um I do have a couple of other questions, but I think I will Is it relinquish my time? Is that the fancy way of saying it? I'll let somebody else back your time. Yeah. Yeah. So, my my question is uh so you've never done this before? Uh not for a municipal government, but I've done it in the federal sector. Yep. So, what kind of work product can you show us that that shows what kind of output we're going to get?

Yeah. So, um I don't have it with me, but I have the tool that I use to analyze the workload and then I've got many different like executive level reports memo style. It's for the DoD. So it's like their version of it was like a executive DoD memo report where it breaks down all the sections and gives the recommendations and gives the findings. And I guess I would like to see an example or examples of the work output how it would apply to a municipality versus the DoD. Uh because this is a a proposed trial for the city, but it's also a trial for you. Sure. On the municipal level and 30,000 bucks is an expensive trial.

Sure. So, um, I don't think I've seen enough in the packet to for me to make a decision one way or another, but I would certainly like to [snorts] some work output so we can kind of have a better idea of what to expect on the back end of this thing. My concerns echo councelor Mallaloy and um I would need to see some sort of a work product that I know what we're actually expecting to receive from this conceptually. I love the idea of analyzing our efficiency and see if we are well placed um and one doing right by the citizens but also doing right by the staff making sure that we're not overworking people. Um so I love the idea but I can't support it without some sort of something in front of me that that shows me what one of these analyses look like after they're completed. Um and then um my one question that I had though was uh councelor Mosby asked like what what are we actually getting what at the end of it and is it just a manpower analysis or is it also would it also be looking at processes um like hey if you had a like we last meeting we approved the purchase of a asphalt hotbox that's going to improve improve processes and all that sort of thing. Do you get into those things or is it just simply manpower versus workload?

No, it's definitely process. So, as you're as I'm going through and identifying the data and working through the data and going through the process map in order to understand the data and really flush it out, I have to look at the process. So part of the process improvements or optimizations or just validation that the processes are good is part of the report. So that would be part of my feedback that would be part of my recommendations. That would be part of the output. So part of our thought process with the asphalt hotbox last meeting was currently the staff is driving to dump excess asphalt and they wouldn't have to do that anymore. So that went into my equation. So are you looking at technological like hey this is the process currently but if you added this piece of equipment or if you added this technology that you would gain these efficiencies.

Yep. So all the times that I did it for the army, there were some work centers and there were some departments and divisions that were doing things in an analog basis, but the army had systems in place that they could be using. Um there were people that were doing knowledge management tasks, but they weren't using like the SharePoint drive, right? So part of the recommendation and part of the assessment is hey there are other cities that are brother and sister to you and like like-mindedness right on those benchmarks that I was talking about they kind of use this in this part of their process you guys don't it's food for thought um so it's not like so it's not just technology and necessarily handoff off baton-wise of process like personto person, but it is identifying you have this process that uses this equipment, you may be missing a piece or you could add a piece on or redundancies. You've got too many pieces, right? So maybe you have too many of this or too many of that. I know that when I got the response back from the streets when I was asking some questions about data and GIS and systems that are used to like track all this stuff. I think one of them only goes back like six months or something like that. I I can't remember exactly what it was, but like that would be a recommendation of mine of hey, if we're going to move forward and this is something that should be moved forward, this is this is once you do a manpower study becomes a modeling trajectory after that. You establish a baseline and then you look at the modeling after that to to see how you're doing, right? And if you're going to do that successfully, one of the key things would be like, well, let's let's figure out a way to have this data be housed for longer than six months because that only gives you a

certain historical snapshot. And did I understand correctly your response to councelor Mallaloy was that yes you can produce some work product that we could take a look at and see what even though it's not for a municipality but it's for another organization either the military or something like that I assume some things you can and I mean so the a followup question that I had with that was I do I do have some like memo style reports right but I guess I would want to understand so I can better serve. What way would you want the data presented?

Would you want it as a report? Would you want it as like a PDF kind of dashboard with charts and comparables? I guess so. So, so I can do my due diligence. Whatever you think is most valuable for us as a decision-making body. I mean, if it was if it was your $30,000, what would you want us, you know, before we spent your money? Sure.

What would you want us to consider? And, you know, so far I see good ideas and I hear that you saying you can do this and I'm confident that you can based on your military record, which thank you for your service, by the way. [snorts] Um, I just need to see, you know, what what's the end result going to look like? It wouldn't have to be highly complicated if it's interactive and all of that stuff. Not really. But I'm just wondering what is what is the end of this? What are we hoping to achieve? And and what can you show me that will what can you show us that says I not only know about it, but I'm highly skilled at it enough to consult on it and to dive into your processes and this is what you can expect to see at the end of it. um in a way similar to what I've done for organization X.

Sure. Yeah. And I think to answer your question about if it was my $30,000, I would just want I would want the data. I would want where do we sit? Where do I stand? What can I do to be better? And then do you have any recommendations or any implementation plans of how that could happen and what that looks like? So that would be because you asked me how I'd want it. Right. So, I don't necessarily want or need a bells and whistles dashboard, clickable things. Um, so I have I could I could put it that way, but I've also got plenty of just the data driven breakdown report.

Even if it's just on paper, I reviewed this whatever and this is what I gave to the client here. You could see it and um and and if we could see that, I know that uh I would feel more comfortable moving forward. Sure, I appreciate it. So, I would say um I'm, you know, I'm definitely a datadriven decision maker type. So, I appreciate the I'm not questioning the value of what you would provide to us as long as, as you mentioned, that data is is also tempered by real world experience on the ground. So, I didn't mean to question you. It was just my own opinion. I'm so sorry. No, I think it's a valid point.

It's it's a valid point. It's a valid concern that so many people have had. It's a good one. Um, my question actually is is probably an underlying question of how how we got here and identified the need. So, John, I'm going to pick on you again because we're speaking specifically about the streets department. Um, I would like to know like if this is a if this is an identified deficiency, what have we been doing to this point to spend the taxpayer dollars on street department maintenance that perhaps is not um is not data driven? I mean, the mayor kind of characterized it, and pardon me if I'm reading into what you're saying, as you know, department heads getting together and saying, "Well, maybe this year we'll do this, and you know, I don't believe that it's that random, but you know, what kind of systems are we deficient in in a pretty large maintenance budget for the streets department?" Um, and as a followup to that, would not would it not be reasonable to think that that department head would need to have the skill set to identify those needs as part of that job responsibility?

Yeah. Just just quickly, I don't want anything to be interpreted as me implying that there's a deficiency in particular. What my position is we don't have the data to know and I I see value in the checkup. [clears throat] So,

no. And I I agree. I think data is important, but I also along that point, it seems that we didn't we just do a streets condition um study not long ago and and it was even affirmed like this this evening in our workshop of you know our our roads and and I'm just using this example because it's what has been brought up. Our roads are in relatively good condition. So I can't believe that is that is by guessing what needs to be done or any kind of random process. So I think as a background like how did we get here to ask this question? Is it something that is specifically identified or are we just saying hey I think more data is important and so you know to if that's the case then $30,000 is a lot to spend because again another kind of follow-up question to that and I'm not questioning the value or the or the veracity of what you do but you could arrive to the exact same conclusions that we already know. One of them being is that, you know, we we really want to be able to chip seal, you know, between six and 10 miles of road every year, but it's extremely expensive. So from a recommended pace to get all of our streets chip sealed in their lifespan, we cannot afford to do it. So it doesn't make a lot of sense to get that exact same recommendation from you and yet arrive at the exact same conclusion of, yeah, that's really nice. That'd be really nice to do. We don't have $36 million laying around to be able to chip seal all of our roads. So, I have a lot of questions.

Yeah, I'm going to jump in. Okay. Because John Beastrom kind of took the bullet in all of this. So, um unfortunately,

it was brought to us that to look at doing an efficiency study. And so Warren and I went to John because we do feel like as a department head currently he would be able to see what data was produced and know whether or not it was fairly accurate to the reality. And so um the reason why John was selected of the department head group and we looked at finance we looked at legal and it's not that finance or legal doesn't have that same ability but then we looked at the complication. So, we felt like probably finance was too simple of a department to use because those processes are so similar on a day-to-day basis. And so, looking at a department that was a little bit more complicated, not as large as the police department. And so, we went to John and said, "Is there a department within public works?" And we looked at water and we looked at streets. But we do believe that John would have that capability of looking at the results that are produced for council and say, "No, that's completely wrong. Yes, that looks pretty accurate or that's that's dead on."

Does that answer your question? Um, partly.

I I I have a followup that might. So the goal and and my goal and and the goal in it all is to not find a problem, right? The goal is to validate what's working and what's going well. That would be that's the that's the ideal. So perception is nine10en of the law. And when you have, speaking as a taxpayer, which we, you know, you guys are all taxpayers too, but speaking as someone on this side of the table, when you have things that are done and you pay taxes into a body of government and their services rendered and all these things we're talking about specifically with streets, there is a certain level of [snorts] validation. It's kind of why the word that we use, it's validate to kind of prove it, right? because you're asking well what what question what what happened for us to get here to ask this question and I think purely the question is just well it's never been done before and we owe out of due diligence and vigilance and to be good stewards and to do right by the taxpayers to be able to produce a data set that shows what's going on good bad or indifferent or good bad and ugly. So I think there's there wasn't really necessarily a question or a situation or a thing that happened as a precise to be like we have all these problems so now we need to like look into it and do a study. It's this really hasn't been done before to my knowledge and it's just good to have because you're a data driven person so you I think you would understand it's just it's good to have the data as the support and as a baseline. It's really

hard to look at a process or to measure improvement or to measure success when you don't have a baseline. And that's why when you do a modeling study and you do a manpower study specifically, modeling is the other key part of this. It's not just the one-time baseline study for streets. It's you do the baseline study for streets and then you revisit it in a modeling sense of well, we had this baseline in 2026 and now we're here at 2027 or 2028. We did all the hard work. Now it's just looking at the pieces and if it worked and is it working, is it not working? But you have a baseline to go off of.

Yeah, I agree with you on that. I would disagree with you on your point though that just because we've never done it before is justification to spend $30,000 to find out

because and maybe this is an unreal realistic expectation that I have of but I also have a very high level of confidence in our staff. So I think that's that's where this question is coming from like like to Mark's point, you know, there was an evaluation of a system that we could find an efficiency in which led to the decision to b purchase a hot box for asphalt. That's datadriven decision-making right there. Like we can improve the system by doing this. So my question really is back to kind of my original question like what are we doing right now? If we clearly have a system, is it an expression of a lack of confidence in that system or is it just a hey, this would be kind of a fun thing to do?

Can I can I my understanding of the presentation anyway and I could be wrong was that we might be up against really hard decisions in the next couple of years given our financial forecast. And so having this information when we go to make those hard decisions might be helpful in driving them. That was my understanding, but I could be wrong about that. There are people out in the community that say that postfalls just wastes money. And so I mean you audits for financial things are routine. Why not audit systems and structures and the way that we do our processes as well? Is is my take away from from the pitch.

No, and I think that's a fair point. I think and and maybe I'm just hung up on it is that [laughter] you know we're we are at at in one breath saying that we're headed for really dire financial straits in the future and yet I'm having a hard time justifying spending more money on it. So it's like because it is an expectation that I have of something that we can produce internally as a responsibility of our department head of this is why you know so if to your point Erin if if the citizens are upset and want justification of why we spend our money the way we do on our streets department I would expect a presentation to come and say this is this is how we determined why we're spending what we're doing and this is the result and this is the condition of your streets based on this data. from the person that we have employed to do that job.

Yeah. And and I think just to just to go around the horn, the third party, and I'm not saying there's a bias, and I don't want to say anything that makes it seem like there's nefarious things at work, but there is something to the unbiased third party perspective. So I mean there's a reason why consulting firms like myself and other ones have have a business and have a job because it's I want the department to audit or to validate itself. So there's a certain broken idea with that and I think again speaking from this side of the table as someone who's not up there but over here at this particular juncture when I look at how the city is operating and what they're doing and what's working and what's not they have to make these big decisions coming up right um I have the perception that postfalls is spending a lot of money unnecessarily so then the answer for the council is, well, I'm going to have the streets department put together a presentation for transparency sake and I'm going to have them break out their books and I really think and I'm pretty convicted on the fact that that would only go so far because it's still like the body checking itself. I think having that third party unbiased 30,000 foot view not only helps the perception and helps the buy in from the constituents and the taxpayers but it also validates the effort. It validates the workload. It validates the department. It validates the body of government.

I would agree with you to only to the extent that I'm glad to hear that. I think that there is a process that needs to happen in order in order to provide the opportunity for our in this case our streets department to present their argument before the audit would occur because I mean that's part of what our job is here. Yeah, very much

to say, okay, as a representative of the public, the presentation that I just heard from whoever that person is has a lot of gaps or holes or possibly identify some areas of efficiency. Our next step would then be to let's get an outside audit to make sure that, you know, we're in alignment with industry standards and things like that. So, um I'm not I'm not again not questioning the value of what you would provide. I would just like to know like if there are identifiable holes in our process then yeah, you know, then it would justify to me spending the $30,000 consultant fee to figure what that figure out what that is that is perhaps a blind spot to our staff or or you know beyond our training or anything like that a legitimate cause for that. Um, I'm just not quite prepared to spend the money on something that I don't know the reasoning behind.

I think that gets to what the dialogue was between you and councelor Luca. Uh, what what is it that we want to see from you? I to your point, yes, validation would be ideal, but I think there is no system that can be without that is that is perfect. All systems can be improved. All processes can be improved. And I know you mentioned that part of your uh the the process you would go through would be identifying process improvement as well not just determining do we have too many people doing this or too few. I know that the processes themselves would also be part of that analysis. So I would like to see at the end of the day yes here's what is being done most efficiently but also here's what we can improve on either saving costs or increasing capacity and productivity based on what we already have. here's how we can make a more efficient use based on what the data is telling us. But then I think I would also like to question and this is getting to councelor Stigle's question and her concern about the people on the ground not the 30,000 foot view but the people who are actually in the workforce uh in this data collection. how or maybe you could speak to how does the input from the workers and this gets kind of back to my original question to you of what's the what does this require from our staff to go through this process. How do you interface with the workforce to determine their perception or is that even assigned a data value? I don't know. I mean I'm envisioning borrowing from your example from the office. I'm envisioning you sitting down individual staff members and putting them in front of a camera and asking them questions. That's just an example that comes to my mind. But how do we determine what actually works within the specific

department and assign that a a value uh that you can then give us these recommendations. Here's how you can actually make an improvement, not just from what the data says, but assigning in that data what the people on the ground are actually telling you. I thought maybe you could speak to that. No. And I think I think your question is a good one because it kind of touches on your question and it ultimately speaks to your concern. You can tell you're a lawyer. You've done this before. What people will say to their bosses and to their organization generally looks a lot different to what they'll say to somebody who's not in their house. So when you look at the processes and because I am completely unbiased and because I am completely third party a key part of getting good data is doing that interview is talking to the employees it is the I don't really know what you do so please teach me please tell me what you do and in that discussion and in that operating agreement between me and the employee coming from a completely place of hash explain it like I'm five I'm able to fully understand what they do and not just make completely armchair decisions and assumptions of well you say you do this I'm going to read this and this is how I'm taking it so this is the adjudication and this is the announcement I'm going to make it's it is truly an organic holistic conversation that happens there is like a grandfathered way to do manpower studies and it's called an over the shoulder like stop clock method where it's literally like you talked about it's an individual person I've got a clipboard I've got a stop clock I'm going to say hey you've got this process go and then you time it I think it's a little bit archaic and I think it's a

little bit demeaning and people it had a lot of success and it works really really well believe it or not but that takes like meetings with individual people that takes a big time commitment you're carving out whether are not going and doing the job that they have to do. And then when I was doing it with the army, we took the manpower modeling methodology and math and we made this product that's a proprietary product that we created where it's like, hey, you fill out this sheet basically. And by filling it out, it equates and does the math and then I go back with clarifying questions. Hey, you put this, can I have a 30-minute meeting with you? Can we talk about this line item right here? So, it's more touching like spot checking kind of thing. And then there's the middle where it's you do a little bit of that but then you also have scheduled meetings to talk and validate the workload and the tasks withmemes and with which on right so that's kind of the method that I was driving with this particular study is I would gather all the GIS data and all the stuff I right and I would interpret it I would get input from him and from hismemes and talk about some of the processes and then at the end of the day if something's not sitting right. It's like, "Hey, Jack, this is the process that you guys do. I'm not really quite getting it. Can you please explain it to me?" Right? I'm not going to sit here and just make some assumption because it is your life, because it is your job, because these do have real impacts. And ultimately, you have the ROI of the department. I forget who it was, but employees that are not overburdened and overworked and employees that have strict understandable this is what I do, this is why I do it. That's employee satisfaction that obviously results in the overall success of the department or the division. So that's like the immediate ROI. But to

speak to your question about the time commitment and the interviews, there's a lot of different ways to do it. But for this specific specific study, it was me gathering the data, me doing a lot of stuff on my own, and then going and doing the litmus checks or the gut checks to make sure that I'm reading it right, to make sure that I'm interpreting it right, to make sure that I'm not just sitting back without any knowledge of any of streets departments and what they do and having a little bit of uh teaching moment. I I I think we should probably start wrapping this up. We could probably talk about this for another hour, [clears throat] but where my mind is at with this is I want to see data. I'm a very data driven guy. And I want to make sure that we're making the right decisions and I'm interested in doing things that nobody has done before. I think you might have noticed that from the the discussions tonight. But I think any way we can get data [clears throat] is going to probably be helpful and ways to test that out are good. We have a a council now who is way more interested in the details of decision-making in the budget than from several years ago. And I think this is a really good trend. And I've seen that staff has done everything that they can to respond to that with the budget workshops. And that's a process of continual improvement. But I remember the the budget workshop we did two years ago. We had uh paper around the room for different things that we fund in the city and we had a bunch of stickers and and the assignment was put the stickers on the things that you care about. Is it parks? Is it public safety? And I remember feeling like I have no basis upon which to place these stickers. I how should I know where they go? Because I don't know how the departments are running. I don't know where we need more resources. Um and I felt like I don't have the the information that I need to make an appropriate decision for that. And I think that's a struggle that we're going to have for the next few budget seasons. So what what we need to know now is is is this avenue of of getting data something that you all would like to pursue um and in which case we can spend

more time on it and get more information or is this just totally not a good idea and we shouldn't um spend more time on it. That's really the question we need to to answer tonight. Uh we didn't want to spend too much staff time working out details on this before we had a sense from the council. I think you all have a flavor of kind of what this is. uh this is an option that we could pursue and we don't have to pursue it but u it makes sense to me it has has my interest um my my preference would be to to try it out and see what we get and I think it's a relatively small bet on the scale of things but this is this is for you guys of is this a direction you want to move in should we continue to explore this or not I think an example of some work output would answer a whole lot of questions so that's one thing I'd like to see

agreed I'm Sorry, Joe. What did you say? So, I think an example of some work output would answer a lot of questions. So, yeah, something I would like to see before we move forward. So, with that, I would move that we table this discussion until a future meeting at which point give you a chance to give us a an example or however many examples you want to give us. Sure. Of some of some work products. Like said, it doesn't obviously doesn't have to apply directly to a municipality, but um but you might have to hold my hand a bit and say this is how this applies to this department. This is what this department does. that is is the going into but I think I can work my way through that but I think that would answer a ton of questions. Yeah, I agree. Yeah,

I think my question would be to you Mr. Mayor on on coming to this decision. I think where I'm at with it is I am completely in an advocate for data, you know, and really getting a baseline. It's a defensible position then that we can say, yeah, this is, you know, this is where we're at. Um, I again go back to what I was saying before like and I honestly don't know what discussions you've had with department heads and is this information attainable from the people that we already have on staff who I would think would be responsible for making the decision that they have made with their budget. So that's where I would like to start, like where are we right now and why are we doing what we're doing now? And if it raises concern, then the next step to me logically would be to I guess we're going to need to spend some money and find out, you know, maybe there's a better way to do it. So that's what I would suggest.

Okay. So we had a motion to pursue this with more information at a future meeting. Is there a second? Second. Second. All right. Motion in a second. Further discussion? Roll call, please. Malloy. Hi, Zigladder. Hi, Mosby. Hi, Ziggler. Hi, Clue. Hi, Luca. I All right, motion passes. Thank you. We'll discuss this in the future with more info. Thank you, Mr. Appreciate it. Thank you. I move for a three-minute recess. Very well. Let's do a three-minute recess.

All right. All right. We'll return to order. Next up on the agenda, America 250 resolution and grant application. Is there a presentation on this or say there's no presentation on this tonight but if you have any questions Chris is here and he can assist or I can assist or field can assist any questions you might have. Actually look pretty straightforward to me.

Oh um I had a question. The last two pieces of art that we put up had artists that weren't from Post Falls. Wasn't there was something in this packet about like putting up a monument, right? Could we try to prioritize having uh like a sculptor, artist or designer that is from Post Falls? We can do that. Okay, great. Do we have any of those? Yeah. Exactly. I would move to approve the America 250 resolution and grant application. Second. A motion in a second. Further discussion. I have one comment that I wanted to make just about the sculpture. Uh you know, this is America 250. It's kind of a significant anniversary. I'd like to see whatever sculpture is there be somewhat patriotic, not just a

rock bench. So, something along those lines or a feather. Yeah. Sorry, I should. [laughter] [snorts] Um, but that's it. Maybe something that shoots fireworks out of it would be good. Be good. Fire breathing dragon launches bald eagles. There we go. I know. I agree. The design could get late. This could be 10 o'clock. Be a little more American. We'll take we'll take that feedback back to the historical society. All right. Thank you. All right. Further comments. All right. Roll call, please. Stickleer. I. Mosby. I. Ziggler. I. PL. I. Luca. I. Malloy.

Hi. [clears throat] Motion passes. Thank you. Um, next up is citizens issues. This section of the agenda is reserved for citizens wishing to address the council regarding city related issues that are not on the agenda. Anyone wishing to speak tonight? Picked a hell of a night for this one. I was going to say, right, you have five minutes to speak. Please state your name for the record.

Hello, I'm James Brightider from Wrath, Idaho. I was asked if I wanted to get involved with helping the skate park here in Post Falls. Um, I said yes. So, I've been visiting the skatepark this fall, this winter, off and on. I'm I'm amazed seeing that there's people dedicated our coldest time of the year skateboarding, rollerblading, biking, and I think it it definitely is something that I'm excited to get involved with. Um, I've been a skateboarder since 1998. I was there at the actual groundbreaking or ground the grand opening ceremony of the Millennium Skate Park. Um, I had to go skate down Centennial and grab a helmet, [snorts] but I I grabbed a hard hat from True Value. And um as well I I was involved with NISPA, the North Idaho skatepark organization that did efforts for the Cordelane skatepark with the help of Ignite CDA, the city of Cordelane as well as well as Panhandle Parks Foundation were able to achieve that skatepark there and as well rally the community there for that skatepark. um here in Post Falls. In the past, I was a judge at the River City Jam, as well as I designed artwork for one of those skatepark shirts. And with this with with my involvement, I've learned that we need to form a 501c3. And we are getting together. We're

forming this group and we are going to have our first public meeting. We need to find and form a board. We need to get community input. We need to state our goals and how we want to find support. So, next Wednesday, the 25th, at the Post Falls Library meeting room, meeting room one, we're going to have our first meeting. And I would like to invite the mayor, the council, as well as the community of Post Falls to be involved with this. Um, learning learning about the skatepark care, like I said, I was amazed that there was kids out there skating. Um, they they all were like in walking distance, biking distance. that location by the Centennial Trail is a great asset for Post Falls. As you know, as this community grows, I think that that should definitely be something that is is celebrated here. And as well, I invite the council. I'm asking for your guys' input as well as the community here to help us make something for future generations as well as something good here for everyone.

Thank you. Awesome. Thank you for your involvement in the invite. Yeah, thank you. Um, any input or anything questions? I got a question, Shel. I don't know if this is some Can we put uh I'm not sure how many people are still watching at 9:30. I don't know if this is something we could put on the socials or the calendar so the people can can see that this event is happening. Yeah, it looks like you have a flyer there. So, if you could provide us a copy of the flyer, we could post it on social media. Yes, definitely. And is this to encourage people to use it or to talk about the what the future looks like or to make additions to the skate park? So, is this about

there? There's kind of, you know, the River City Jam was a a thing here that it was a skateboard contest and it's something to celebrate, you know, validating all the efforts that these kids, you know, are doing to skateboard here, you know, just to kind of celebrate that. And then as well, um, other kind of things there, there's no actual like lessons or things like that to get the community involved. the more we can kind of show support, it's going to result, you know, in a in a cleaner space, the the graffiti, it's a problem.

If if people feel that they're being supported, they're going to actually have like a feeling, you know, that it belongs to them. And we want to make it, especially here in Post Falls, as we grow as an organization, if this happens, we want to spread this to the whole panhandle area where we can then have a support group so that we can raise those funds, find people the area as we grow to further action sports and garner, you know, good things for the community. Great. Thank you. and I appreciate your efforts as somebody who was skateboarding long before Tony Hawk was advertising arthritis medication.

Skateboarding is still cool. I just it was just cool growing up. It's still kind of cool. Yeah. Thank you for coming. Thank you, mayor. Thank you, council. And thank you for your patience of sitting through this marathon meeting to deliver that message. Yeah. [snorts] Anybody else wishing to speak? All right. Seeing none, we will move on to administrative staff reports. We have the economic development policy discussion. Good evening. How are you? Wonder [laughter] still good. Still good.

I'm going to shorten this up. Um, so economic development over the last 10 to 15 years has changed greatly for the city. And back when the original policy was adopted, it was on the heels of the um state adopting what they call their tax reimbursement in incentive. It's called the TRRI. So that came in July of 2014. With the TRRI, it requires a letter of support from the city for the particular project. And so at the time, we didn't have any procedure in place for us to sign letters of support. And so we drafted the original um policy was adopted in 2016. It was really in regard to the actual support of a of a project. The um submitt policy came secondary when we were getting a lot of what they call requests for information and that was in response to some of the users that were looking to locate here who had high infrastructure needs. And so in 2021, we came back to council and said, "We're receiving a lot of requests for information from people who may be a high wastewater user, high electricity user, things like that." And so we wanted some guidance for staff to respond to those RFIs. So there's two pieces to this policy. One is in regards to the letter of support. We [cough] have a project that's looking potentially coming here. The other is just people who are submitting RFIs. Um, economics policy has a purpose and basically I'm going to put it down in a nutshell of we want to create good property tax value, low impact on infrastructure and highquality jobs. So that's kind of what we're looking for when we're looking at um projects that are coming to the city of Post Falls. And um if we can create a supply chain,

that's beneficial to us. And so trying to colllocate those supply chain users near one another. Um zoning helps also predict where we're going to [cough] put these folks. Um when Far West Steel was looking at coming into town, they were looking up on Prairie originally. It wasn't a great area for truck access. So, community development will help significantly when they're looking at those kind of locations and saying maybe not a good location um and and provide other suggestions. So, but the main thing is high a good high quality job creation create a sustainable um revenue stream for the city and then also um the impact on our infrastructure is considered. We do work with the state of Idaho, the Palol's Urban Renewal Agency, Cordlane EDC, that Mayor Wesland did make clear that we'd like to have that name changed. So, um, it was originally called Jobs Plus, Panhandle Area Council, the chamber, business community. Um, we had our Coutney County and local cities also, we worked together and supporting agencies like a Vista, KEC, NAC, Keech all work together. um used to be when a project wanted to come to town, there was a two to three day event that occurred and all of those agencies would come in and meet with these folks and explain why Post Falls Rather Cordelane was a place where they should locate. Everything is done electronically now and so we don't have those large um uh type of meetings with folks and so it's trying to get the information out, let them know what our incentives and stuff are digitally. So, um, types of incentives that we have are urban role districts, industrial revenue bonds. You did, um, an appointment tonight for that. And then the seat assignments, CPACE that we heard about six months ago, I want to say,

opportunity zone that you probably have never heard of, but was adopted about 10 years ago. It was used one time in the downtown area here. This uh, census track would no longer qualify for that, even if the federal government chose to renew it. Um, CPACE was in there twice. Look at that. Ability for us to apply for federal and state grants in inind staff assistance. You see that in that document of things that we're allowed to do for the meaningful match. And then fee waiverss and expedited reviews. That's also within the policy. State incentives are the tax reimbursement incentive which is called the TRRI. It's their big one. Business advantage. That one is also a quieter big one. So it is what most of the uh businesses would qualify for if they aren't making 50 or more job creation or they're not doing the large capital investment. Um the uh postfalls hospital qualified for the business advantage for example workforce uh training grants that one is if you've got a new company coming to town they will help u train your employees. uh ATC used that uh number of companies have used the workforce training grants opportunity fund which is different than opportunity zone opportunity fund is a grant that's under the Idaho department of commerce that they can grant for infrastructure improvements uh we have received that twice here in the city of Post Falls and one of them was not moved forward with for project drive the other time was out at Riverbend um for a lift station. And that one does have a bit of a story. It was originally approved for the truck parts place out there. On a Saturday, they announced that they were located in Post Falls. On Tuesday, I got a call from Department of Commerce and said, "You guys released the information too

soon. We're pulling the grant." We didn't release the information, by the way. It was the company went to the press on the information. The grant had not been cured yet, and they did pull that. they located a molding company, Summit Molding, instead and were able to still recapture that grant through another company. So, one of the things that we do have and why you see all these project names is they cannot know who the company is. The company has to be deciding between here and another location and the incentive has to be a key factor in the fact that they're located here. So when you see the next slide or the following slide, you see a lot of project names. It's because we don't disclose the name. I don't have the name in any of my email. Um Field wouldn't have it in his email. We do everything projectbased. So it's project bluebird. It's project this, project that. It's not the company name. Project Fujio came up once or twice. Um broadband grants, property tax exemptions. That is actually approved at the county level. Orgill used that when they came to town and so they go to the border county commissioners and the border county commissioners can agree to wave a portion of their property tax bill for up to five years and so the city does not um we don't have any control over that. the county would look to us to say, "Are you okay with this?" And so with Orgill, we did say they had difficulty filling that building. And so we did go with Cordlean EDC to the Board of County Commissioner hearing on that and supported it. Um tax reimbursement, that's the big one, creates 50 full-time jobs. They have to meet or exceed the county average wage. Um have to demonstrate that meaningful community match. that's not defined, but we have used the urban renewal districts in the past and um the waving of building permit fees. Within

the current policy, it does just allow the waving of those fees. We've never done more than 50%. Um, and then the in inind staff time incentive is a critical to their decision to expand or locate in Idaho. And they have to provide a significant economic impact both to the community they're locating in and to Idaho projects. Um, successful projects was ATC manufacturing orgill and project print. Um, that's uh Bruno her Bruno Harris. That's correct, right? Bruno Harris. Yes. Um, unsuccessful or held projects. Project Atlas, Project Canary, Project TAP, JP Project Industries, Project Fox Trot, River Drive, Feather Emerald. I have two projects current that I didn't put in here because um they are in process. And so we do have two projects that um are seeking letters of support and receive those um project bluebird and project wings. So that are seeking support through the state right now.

So we haven't had any in over five years.

No. No. It's um it is a completely different world. what you see locating in Post Falls now pretty much comes without the TRRI support and they will still qualify for the business advantage. Um I can even with the ER hospital when they called to tell us that they were locating here we're like wait have you talked to the state yet on any incentives? They're like oh you guys have incentives and so um we're not seeing as much need for the incentives and so they're not seeking them as early on. Um that said, there are some projects that could happen on places like Pleasant View if we could get more incentives to fund the infrastructure. So that's one of the stumbling areas is our areas that don't have the adequate infrastructure. Um even up on Highway 41, some of the issues we'll have up there with the property that is within the the tech park um on the west northwest corner is they're not going to have adequate sewer for that site and so it's going to mean upgrading sewer to to go up there. So that's one of the the challenges they'll have at that time once they start developing that. Is it fair to say that prior to the pandemic, these companies were looking for a place that was inexpensive to be and they didn't care so much where they were and now they specifically want to be here, which is why they're not looking for incentives. They're just this is where we're going to be no matter what. And they skipped over the incentive part.

You could say that. And there are a number of um companies that prefer to be on this side of the border. So some of the companies we're seeing come over here coming over from Washington. So going back to the meaningful community match, uh urban rural infrastructure does qualify. So, if you happen to want to locate your company in an area where we've put in infrastructure that qualifies for it, [snorts] um waiver of fees and no impact fees or capitalization fees may be waved. So it is just the building [cough] permit fees and the planning and zoning uh review fees in kind staff time expedited plan reviews industrial revenue bond financing that was used with ATC as a meaningful match and if used we haven't had it CPACE would also qualify under that same basis as the industrial revenue bond financing. We are likely to have an industrial revenue bond financing coming forward again soon. So um just key takeaways, the policy needs to be updated. It was written in a time that doesn't exist today. Many of the key factors remain the same. Um what we want to see is a economic development policy that supports again good quality jobs, high property tax value, low impact on our infrastructure. Basically a community benefit and sustainability are our priorities for us. Um it should ensure that infrastructure readiness. Uh one of the things on the RFI was talking about things up to and including not only is it energy um it is also things like odors um high impact of traffic on neighbors things like that or

the roads not really capable of let's say it's a lot of truck traffic. Are those roads not capable of handling that traffic? Um, incentives are a tool, not a guarantee. We want folks to know that as they're going forward. And we want to outline any authorities that should be allowed in the policy. So, right now, we do sign those letters of support. The mayor signs them, but they're signed with the policy allowance. And so, if you guys wish for that to continue, we'd want to have something in the policy allowing for that. Um, and then the other question is, are you comfortable with the waving of the fees at 50% or would you like to see something different than that? Um, again, I'm just taking input tonight. So, if you want to think about it, I'm I'm happy to let you think about it. Or if you have specific thoughts, I'm happy to take that tonight. I think 50% would be the maximum especially as noted our economic situation [snorts] has improved dramatically in the last six or eight years to where I think we can capitalize on that without giving away the farm just off the top of my head. I would agree the apologies my brain is about mush by now. But uh [clears throat] you know part of the justification of of giving a fee waiver is you know an average citizen wanting to you know build a home or or start a small business doesn't qualify for that. So

yeah, it's it's almost a little bit regressive. However, um [snorts] just as as my justification for the existence of urban renewal, um we're competing against a neighbor literally just up the street that it's legal in that state to literally pay companies to come. So, um, if we have an interest in expanding, uh, you know, industry and high-paying jobs here, then then we need to offer some kind of incentive. So, I'm with Councelor Ziggler. I don't think I'd want to wave them entirely, but um, some kind of incentive that way I think is appropriate. And in the current policy, they are only allowed that fee waiver if they qualify for the state incentive, right?

If they don't, then they would not receive that. Would this policy be the place that we could add um like a temperament of offense to our trying to get businesses into postfalls or is this just literally where we're going to list out our incentives? I appreciate that we have a lot of incentives to try and coax people to us, but what I envision is a little more like going out into the wide world of businesses, looking to locate places and finding them and selling ourselves to them. Um, this is this is my, you know, this is my soap box. Like we can't make houses cheaper, but we can make people more money. And I don't know if this is an opportunity where we can try to relook at that to make people more money. I think that holistically can all reside in the same policy.

Okay. Then I would like to see language that talks about um using resources in the city to go out and try to find businesses that meet the qualifications that we're saying we're looking for. Okay. Oh, Shelley, thank you so much. I can do that. Okay. These guys have to approve it, but I can do that.

Well, [laughter] fair enough. love to see something that gave incentive for people to come and build something that was going to produce these jobs where they're not already bringing their workforce with them from somewhere else. Like we want to provide jobs for the people that are here. I mean obviously any company is going to need to bring some people with them unless it's a complete startup in which case they probably wouldn't be applying for any of this. But if they're relocating, it would be nice if there was something in there where instead of us having to build, you know, 40 more single family homes or whatever and then they just bring their workforce from wherever they're relocating from that there is an opportunity for those that are here. And I don't know if that's something that would potentially go into this policy or um if there's any way we put our finger on the scale in that way, but that's just my my two cents as somebody that is just now kind of learning about all of this stuff. That is a I I would say it's a good and a bad thing about um companies locating over from Washington because some of the times they do bring their workforce. It doesn't require additional housing. is just literally bringing the property tax and the income to the Idaho side. Um the downside is it's not necessarily creating any new jobs. Um it does some because you'll have some folks who don't want to come over to the Idaho side and pay Idaho income tax and so a few of those employees on the Washington side may want to remain on the Washington side. Um but it's it's a good and a bad. Like I said, it doesn't really create any new jobs, but it definitely does bring the income over to our side.

And playing the long game, too. There's inevitably turnover in any organization, so those opportunities will arise. But I I agree with you. It'd be great if they all showed up right up front. But, uh, yeah, if somebody's moving from Spokane to here, it's probably not likely.

Any other thoughts? Direction for staff? All right. I appreciate it. Thank you. Next up is mayor and council comments. I have none tonight aside from Thank you everyone for making it through the marathon meeting. Council.

Uh yes, Mr. Mayor. Um in a previous meeting when we discussed um appointing Mr. Anderson to the uh planning and zoning committee. I made it clear that I was kind of on the fence because there were some of his answers I wasn't clear on. Um and uh but I was I was almost a yes, which is why I said [snorts] that uh I'd be willing to reconsider it at a future time. When I walked out, um I did have a conversation with Mr. Anderson and let him know what my reasoning was. and I found out that uh some of my reasoning was was not I didn't have all the facts and so I in addition uh councelor Ziggler didn't have a chance to to vote on that appointment and if there has not been any further interest in that position and you wanted to reconsider him then um I can't make any promises because it would depend on what his answers were when he came back before the council but um I would be u very I think I'd be very likely to change the vote that I had. So, I just wanted to make that clear.

Okay. Um I I I spoke with um James Stephenson today um about the vacancy and I don't really know what we're going to do. It sounds like maybe we'll open it up again and go for more candidates. Um if you guys wanted to to bring him back, I would want to see um a motion passed by the council to that effect because I don't want to get a, you know, get a no vote and then bring somebody back of my own manoord. But uh if it's the will of the council to bring him back, then then that's what we'll do. Otherwise, we'll we'll probably cast the net out again and and I don't know what we'll get. Okay. So, you're free to make a motion if you want to try to do that or we can I would suggest we cast the net first and see what we get.

All right. Yep. And I'd be fine with that, too. I mean, if if we haven't if it has not still been open, then let's get some more applications in. But um I just reserve maybe the right if if those don't produce to bring that back up again. Right. Any other comments?

If I may quickly, we're in a legislative session for our state and as Mr. Mallaloy decided there are some things that um I don't know the statute that you talked about will have an effect on city business. There are uh also um new laws being discussed that will directly affect land use in the city of Post Falls and a lot of the decisions that we make. Um, and so I would recommend that every resident of Post Falls get some information about what is going on in your legislature and depending on how you feel about um those land use decisions, let your representatives know um because they will dictate how we are able to act um and decisions that we are able to make. And so um so I don't know, it's worth it's worth voicing your opinion on those because it it will be out of our hands after that. So

that's all. Thanks. All right. Any other business to come forward before we adjourn? Seeing none, this meeting is adjourned. Thank you.