Plan Commission - Special Meeting

We'll call he doesn't want to be anywhere near me. First item is a pledge. Yiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. All right. Next item, roll call.

Kevin Brites here. Bob Gilliana here. Craig Kenworthy here. Pamela Michel Fish here. Ed Morales here. Redstone. Luther Williams here. Nikki Wowski here. Rick Burns here. Eight present. You have a quorum, sir. Thank you. Okay. Any uh other correspondence at this time? There is not.

Okay. All right. Got two cases for business. The first one is AM 2025-2. Applicants Porter County Department of Development and Storm Water Management, location 155 Avenue, sweet 311. request seeking a recommendation for amendments of chapter 2, chapter 5, chapter 12 of the Porter County Unified Development Ordinance to include barn dominions. Good evening everybody. Um, I sent you a uh staff memo.

You want to state your name and that's exactly Mike Jbo and I work

Thank you. You're welcome. Um, sent you a staff memo on these two agenda items tonight. The first one's the barn dominium. It is the Roman numeral 2 starting on page two of the report I sent you. What precipitated all this is we've been getting a lot of inquiries lately on barnaminiums. Come to find out, they're pretty prevalent. There's a contractor, I believe, over in either St. Joe or Leaport County that does construct these. They have pits or they have floor plans and all that all prefabricated and all that they construct. So, we've had one submitt and a whole bunch of inquiries on these and as a principle, you know, we don't have an object objection to them. As you can see, I got a little slideshow to kind of show you what we mean, but as you can see by some of these, they're quite attractive buildings, but they're also known to be quite large, too. Some of them can be quite large and so I will uh go through the slideshow and kind of give you a flavor of what we're talking now. Barnaminiums by definition if we did a lot of research across the web and other counties, cities, towns, not only in Indiana but in other states as well. As you look at these examples right here, these examples are mostly living space. They not include large shop spaces or anything. They have your typical two, three, fourc car garage. So, there's nothing really super big about them as far as storage goes. It's all living space. Now, a lot of people think, well, it's a pole barn. A pole barn is a binium. And that is false, too. A barn can be of any construction material. It can be metal. It could be stone. It could be wood. Could be any of the building materials you'd see in typical housing construction. Here's an example of one's a little bit

bigger. Does have a large garage space as you can see to the right in both of these pictures. It's very, very attractive building for the rustic scenery that it's sitting in. It's not adjacent to any other properties or anything else like that. This came out of the Newcastle, Indiana unified development ordinance where they address Bartuminiums. Uh this is a picture they're showing as an example of theirs. As you can see, this looks like a traditional barn, warm barn. How much of this is living space versus storage space? I can't ascertain from the picture. Then I start looking at some barnaminiums. Again, you can see these are mostly in a metal frame, metal frame pre buildings to a certain extent. And you can see like uh to the left down at the bottom, it's got a three bay or two bay garage and some storage room in the back. And it doesn't seem out of place. Uh and with respect to like a normal home or anything here, we're getting a little bit larger. We're getting a little more institutional, but you can see they got a four bay garage there. Again, uh houses do have a lot of houses do have four bay grounds of this size. Does that make it a better barn dominion? No, it does not. Here's something where it's roughly 50 50% of storage, garage space versus living space on the main footprint. And it's it's key to point out everything we refer to as the footprint. It may be multiple level of living quarters. We don't count the upper. We're trying to compare these things with the footprint of the ground that they consume versus the storage. But here you can see you're approaching probably more exactly 5050 in storage versus living space.

Here's something a little bit bigger. About 63% of storage space, garage, whatever you want to call it, versus the house. As you can see, it gets quite large. to illustrate a point when we have uh primary structures and that I think that's one of the key things here this then becomes a primary structure if we say so in the UDO the UDO is very silent kind of structure and if you all recollect the vast majority of our land uses say that a residential structure as a primary structure can only 35 ft in height then We say with the exception of the A and a few industrial that accessory structures are limited 20 feet in height. Those of you who sat in board zoning appeal hearings or listen quite frequently we are addressing that which is something we're going to address in the future. You know it's 20 feet should it be 22 23 feet research on that because that seems to be the sweet spot. Everybody's equipment like their motor homes, their boats, and whatever they store are getting bigger than they were some 20 years ago. But as you can see here, actually the assess what would be normally accessory structure is taller than the house. And that's one of the things these things can be very massive in scale, especially when they're very close to other uh properties with structures. This is a case that was submitted to us this year for a permit. And as you can see in the green, that's all storage space, garage storage space, all considered the same. The blue space is the first floor of a two-story building. And it's roughly 8020 in comparison inside. Storage space 80% and living space 20%.

And the entire thing is uh 31 33 feet tall. So they're really pushing the limits on the size of this thing. And again, we don't have objection to the barn dominion. We think there's certain offsets. We have to be respectful of our neighbors and certain sizes to maybe considered. And then this is the same one. These are the elevational views. um uh the one to the upper left that would be the front, the backs to the right, and then the two sides there. And as you can see, the one side in this particular case, the side in the bottom right hand corner, that was the one that going to be adjacent to a residential subdivision with a uh ranch style home uh within 30 ft of the property line. So residential R1, they can be within 20 ft. on the other side where this was going was our our setback is 30 feet. So, uh it's hard to tell the scale and all that kind of stuff. The reason we rejected it is because of its closeness to it and we felt that the UDO did not present itself clear enough that we could get direction. Hence, we made recommendations that any of these come in if they want to move them forward that they would go to the board of zoning appeals unless we did something oursel until such time, which is what we're here tonight for. That's pretty much my presentation, you know, to give you a flavor what they are. So, a barnaminium can look like a barn and it doesn't have mass storage like some others do, or it can be massive storage with massive heights. And so, the proposed ordinance we're putting before you tonight, it's open for discussion. We can change it with your input. Staff's done a lot of research. As I said, we reached out to

various people uh searched the web and and it's interesting. There's very few standards that address this phenomenon. But what we did find that communities we did talk to if they were in the urban areas like a city or town. They were generally located on the fringe of the city adjacent to agricultural land and they did have 100 foot setback especially from the front. Well, we did find in the one county it was Hamilton County, I believe, which is a pretty populated county, but so is Porter County. Porter County is in the top 10 of counties of the 92 counties in Indiana. So, they're experiencing growth in their urban areas. Yes, they have a lot of very dense urban areas, but they still have some rural areas. Um, they also were looking at the 100 foot setback as well. and that they uh they didn't go so far as talk about what they'd be adjacent to. Oh, yes, they did. They said they were mostly in the agricultural and the low uh low density residential. Now, mind you, they did not have an RR classification like we do for residential. So, I would consider our very lowest rural resident would be rural residential. So, that would provide some similarity. And it wasn't just them. and it was another town in Indiana and did the same thing. So the information is scanned when you do find it. So it doesn't go into great detail. We could get into architecture, we could get into a whole host of things, but I didn't think that was the purview. We don't, like I said, we don't want to discourage this kind of development. We just want to make sure that either the size of it is not so massive to disrupt the adjacent land uses and that uh on the other hand we don't want to pick on because they got a fourc car garage that doesn't make it a farominium. So when you read the draft

ordinance, it says, I believe it says if at least 50% of the storage space of the foot, the overall footprint, that would kick it into what we would define as a barn dominion. Doesn't mean they can't do it. It just says now you've got a definition of what you are. Later on in the document, I don't have it immediately. Yeah, I got it right here. What I believe is we didn't we suggested that they'd not be more than 70% of storage space. And we did ran some numbers. You know, like I said, fourc car threecar garages were real popular. Now, fourcar garages are starting to become popular. So, we just didn't want a regular house to be held back because of this. So, we tried to use some care and do our due diligence and make sure do that. Um thing to keep in mind as far as the offsets, we said 100 foot, that'd be the side, rear, and front except if it was adjacent to uh any non-aggricultural land or RR. So in other words, if it was next to R one, which is a little more dense housing, still considered low, but it's not the RR. We said 200 ft. Now, we just guessed at that one. We felt that, you know, that that could be modified. We've had second thoughts about that since we published this document, but we'd be willing to tame, but that would only be on the adjacent side. It's not meant to be all the setbacks. So, if only on one side they're close to say an R1 or an R2 zoning, that would be the only side they would have what we would recommend be a higher setback distance to give a little because if and you're in the building business as well that what I learned in my career is is the farther away you are from something the shorter it looks and so

we're trying to find that sweet spot so that the height distance ratio provides that kind of optic of what we're looking for here. So I will stop talking and entertain your thoughts. Hey, Luther. Comments. Um, I'm trying to find it here. You gave examples the pictures. Can we Can you put those flash through them real quick of the examples?

Sure. Be happy to Yeah. Yeah. Go the next one. The next one. Um, okay. Give me the ones that show the percentages. I think you know a lot of these maybe they're 5050.

That one the one in front of you is not. So that wouldn't be classified necessarily as a barnominium. I would say 50/50 would start looking like that Luther. Okay. And then definitely that one would be greater than 50%. Okay. But now in what you had here, what are you suggesting that the ratio be?

Well, in the front the 50% just says that's the definition of a barnuminium because when we do this, we have to define what a barnuminium is. If you let me pull it out and I'll read it to you. So, it's just simply the definition. It says a barn dominium is a large structure that is a home built to resemble a barn converted from a barn often with steel metal frame or even more conventional facade material and characterized by open floor plan high ceilings with large non-residential utility space that may be used as shop or storage area. the attached non-residential space of the structure is greater than 50% than the total structural footprint. So all we're saying by the 50% if it exceeds 50 50% or greater it could fall into the bargain category. Now the only limitations other than the setbacks we have the lot size minimum lot width and the height and we're saying that that maximum primary structure to answer your question is whatever that zoning there in that still prevails and then the distribution uh we put in as a suggestion that the storage space couldn't exceed 75% of the total footprint. So in other words we didn't want to have a 5,000 square foot barn and then you put a little pun little house just to get the credit for having a big barn of that size.

So are we saying that the barnominium can have a height of what? Whatever the height limitation is for that zoning requirement. So in R1 RR the maximum height is 35 ft. Okay. For any house. Okay. And that would apply to the barn. Okay. What about in uh the egg district?

I'd have to look that up. Egg's a little unique in that it and I don't have it right in front of me unless you know right off the top of your head. I can look it up real quick. But egg's got a little different twist to it because there's what's called an exemption for being agricultural. You can go up to 50 feet if you can prove you're truly an agricultural use. So, so that's what I'm saying. Can they be 50 feet tall? They would in that case. Yes. In a the burn menu. Yes. Okay. That that was my question. Okay. Anything else with that just Kevin?

Yeah. The big question in my mind was the height. I like the idea of having the setbacks that you recommend just for proportion. Something to keep in mind. Typically, the barnaminium, they say it can be built for 20 to $40 a square foot as opposed to traditional home that's about $200 a square foot. And that's mostly because of all the space they use. Uh or create uh most of these seem to be metal buildings at this point, but they don't have to be. And there there's some efficiencies and economics involved with these things. But at the same time, and I mentioned to Mike earlier today, the issue with a lot of our residents would be the one of aesthetics because if you have a steel building, what does that look like? It's not necessarily going to look like the pictures we see here. But uh as many of you will recall, we've had uh storage buildings dressed up because of the impact of the aesthetic on the local neighborhood or community. So that's the thing we just need to be mindful of. And part of that was because of lack of that building liner separation from the adjoining properties. So part of this could be satisfied I think by having the 100 foot side and front and rear setbacks to keep it clear. The uh what wasn't clear to me is what we're going to define or what you recommended to define the barnuminium as. Is it a building that has 25% residential use and up to you know is there a proportion there?

If uh we toyed with that and if you read the ordinance on the first page the definition it says that the storage area is at least 50% of the total footprint. So that would mean that uh the residential portion is 49% or less. that would qualify then as a barn dominion. Okay, I missed that when I was reading. It's at the bottom of the first page.

Well, I'm looking at it on my phone since I didn't get a paper copy. So, I just know where it is on my phone. Right here. Look on this. Where is this? Okay. This is ordinance before you go to Yep. Here.

Next. Yeah, there it is. Okay. a structure that was greater than 50% of the total structure footprint is considered to be a part of okay and I don't have any recommendations or preferences for that number as long as it's stated so we define clearly what a barnominium is and by the way these come in all sorts of other names too and I don't know if we're going to cover the grand uh garage dominiums the what do they call the sheds Shes shauses shed house that's what they're called.

So we have all sorts of varieties of these things also uh that may have to be addressed in some fashion.

I want to add one thing for all you members. This is not we're not suggest we're suggesting that in the A1, A2, and RR zoning districts that these now become special exception uses. And for those of you who've been on here for a long time, special exception use must appear before the BCA to be vetted. We gave them a not all special exception uses that are listed in there have criteria. If I were we decided to list the criteria that you see on the following pages that if they basically check all those boxes then the chances are that they're going to be approved. They'll have to maybe settle some questions as far as aesthetics and things like that. So that's how it's currently set up here. Now, if someone wanted to build a barnaminium on another piece of property that what we say here, they still have that avenue open to them and we deal with it all the time. We thought about that saying, are you putting too much restriction on them? Well, we're not because everybody's got relief from the BCA. They can go to BCA and make their case and it can be judged upon. Look, since I've been here the year and a half and what I've known before, not every piece of property is suitable to put anything you want to build. And we're not trying to do that. But when those come, we can't write rules for everything because the more rules you write, the more loopholes you create. Usually, we're trying to keep it simple. But the people still have the opportunity to go to the BCA and make their case even if they wanted to put it in R1. Let's say they're on an R1 that's 40 acres and they want to put it out in the middle of it. I think that would be a reasonable request that the BCA can have for but to but to just say it can be in any R1. Then that means you can go in any residential subdivision that's a developed subdivision with an R1 and build a baron bardinium within 20 ft of

the property line. I don't somehow I'm having problems with that. Well, I I agree with you on page two of three. you do address the special exception, which I like that part of of it. Part of the thing that I I'm still trying to get a gra grip on too. Historically, I mean, way beyond our time, we had mother-in-law houses and other buildings built on. Today by our own ordinances we restrict the uh property to one residential unit. Is this going to be the one singular residential?

All that would still apply. Yes. As a residential unit. And just as far as that was clear because it's pretty much the impacts on community and neighbors something we have to consider ahead of them and that's really all we're trying to accomplish here is if you read the UDO chapter one the UDO responsibility is to create harmony amongst adjacent property uses and sometimes the UDO is silent with all that stuff. So that's why we have the plan commission. That's why we have the BTA to settle those kind of things where we're silent or it's not clear and that's how we're trying to set this up.

And you do have a minimum acreage recommended for that's five acres as I recall. Correct. For our so agricultural got to be 10 to begin with. Yeah. Nikki. So, I'm gonna say start off. I have a hard concept of figuring out how this is different sometimes than a house.

Like literally, because when I look at even these photos, my house has a metal roof these sides. I'd have trouble arguing are metal or are they wood? And I've already seen houses on that side. So, I don't have a lot to say on like what you're trying to do besides aren't they a big house or a house with a big garage and is that more of the route we should almost be going would be almost my thing. So that's why I'm saying I'm not going to comment a lot on what you said because the only other thing that I have a concern with is I get it though. I get why they're calling them barnaminiums. I get it's a style but we've got ranch we've got all kinds of styles of houses already. My main concern is, is somebody going to build this, convert it to look like a house afterwards? That's my greater concern is, okay, the first owner is going to do this. What stops that owner from having that 75% storage space and whittling that away and when are we going to hit the point that that storage space is now 25% house and 75%? then they're golden. Then they're just a typical residential structure.

So then why are we doing different categories for them? Well, and I'm just I'm just kind of out and I get it. But that's like the concern I have almost for because just like you also said what about the what you call garageoriums or what I don't know grudge dominions

garage dominions you know and the are we already starting to go down that road of making lots and lots and lots and lots when it's out there I am okay with what is being proposed. I will say that as well, but that's my concern is somebody either adding on their current house and making it into barn deanium by accident and by what they are choosing to put on the sides of their houses. Because again, like I said, how many people are now already putting metal roofs on and how many are already getting their sides of their houses to be metal and that's already what you got. How many people are adding on? And that's my only thing of wrapping around that I have trouble with all this is I think it's still also gonna be hard

we did and oh he was

I think keep in mind that it's not about Our opinions have brought it to life. What we're doing is saying if you're building a residential home and the first footprint exceeds 50% storage. We have created a category. You are now in this new category. We have following rules because we are basically we are now concerned that over 50 you are getting more something beyond res50

and see that I can get behind that division. We could call this super big houses whatever we can come up with a new name. don't want us to get caught up really large attachments

because we're not dealing with the found that things are happening. We're not diving into the construction. We are making the divide I think quite cleverly at what is happening inside and kind of coming to the 50% storage which is not the residential purpose which isn't what we're supposed to be doing primarily. This is the primary structure for a reason. If that primary structure square foot on the first floor tilts past it being % or more residential use. We are now in this category

look different whether it's a limestone or a brick home or whatever however it's built if you are 50% larger taking away from the primary resial use you are put in this category because we're obviously we're concerned concerned about the property owners and back to what director probably won't be perfect and as we run through it might been going through I think uh Mr. can attest to this. At one point we looked at different kind of different requests. Now we're getting them and they are for a different reason. And so now we need to go back and look at that code because we need to adjust the code. Yeah. And I and I get that and and like I said, I think it goes back to that definition because yeah, we read it. It says converted from a barn to steel metal frame, but open floor plan, high ceilings. I've got that in my house.

Well,

but you're right. It's that 50% mark. And that's why I'm like that's why I'm kind of going back to that is that that seems like the tilt factor. I just want to also make sure that when they start going back and forth across that line, I'm assuming assuming, but you never want to assume. I'm assuming the different regulations can come into play or not because again, I could tilt that 50% by adding on to my house and putting more uh accessory and then I tilt it that way or I can take that accessory space and make it a home. So, that's what I'm saying. I just want to make sure that needs being thought about in the long run of how are we compensating for that just as much because I I agree with that 50%. That I'm solid on. It's just some of the other aspects I get it and I can see it. But like I said, when I look at some homes nowadays, good things already in them, metal roofs, sight changing. But

and if I might address that, Scott, like you look where you're looking there, those would not be barn dominions. Okay. because they don't have 50% or grading. So, let's not get hung up on the aesthetic whether it's metal or even looks like a barn. As long as it's liveable space, that matters not to us. This this does not change this. It's what the trigger is like you said again at 50%. If it's over 50%, all we're saying is you have other criteria that you must satisfy. You got to go to the BCA. And if somebody is um wanting to add on to their house, will that trigger like if you're if you're wanting to add on add on a large

I think we'd have to do them on and that's where you can't get caught up. You got to try to make this as simple and as deaf as possible. If that case comes, we could work with them on a case by case. Let's say you got a house and you want to go from fourcar garage, sixcar garage, and it's all really part of the house. If it makes sense and all that, then we judge on it on a case-byase basis. But that would come before somebody later or would that come when they did their building permit. I'm sorry. When they would do their building permit add on, it could be addressed then. Okay. Like I said, that that's all making sure of is that there's some other cross check later. Thank you.

I I did think of one more thing that and uh Scott just brought it up as far as storage. That's how I always interpreted this was for people storing things. But what about people who have the inclination to start running businesses out of this? That's what I'm saying. Okay. The underlying zoning is we're not changing the use. Okay. But we need to make clear to the public what this really is. And to me, I agree with you that storage, residential use, that's the limit. But I can see people deciding that they're going to run a Well, that's why it's in the residential zone district. Well, an ape. Well, it's an ape, too.

But anybody that's running a business, um, if they do it, they don't come in do a permit, we won't know. Except if the assessor finds out or we get a complaint

or they're going to build the thing first place, we look at it. Uh, there's people, my view is you could have a residential house, an accessory structure out there and a person could be running a business. You and I had that discussion a couple weeks ago and until someone turns it in, we don't know. Then we deal with it. So whether it's a barnominium or it's just typical residential house plus an accessory structure, what's to keep someone from running a business, eventually it'll catch up with them if they're not allowed in that zone. The thing is I'm just suggesting maybe in the text somewhere it should say this is for storage and residential purposes and give direction for using it for business or commercial.

I was just going to make a comment about that also. I know some of the BCA um when you approve them, they have to actually sign a document stating that they will not use that storage facility for like if they're building or whatever for a business. So if if somebody's going to build one of these structures, can you also re or not recommend but but make them sign a document stipulating that they are not going to use this in any way, shape or form for business? I that it's the pleasure of the board if that's what you want put in as a condition.

I could just see down the road. I mean, maybe maybe the original people that that built these structures that say they go to sell it, they sell it to somebody else and they're thinking, "Oh, wow. Look at what we have here. We could do this, this, and this

and it could be a totally different situation um than what it originally started out in." So, I would say do what what you do at a lot of the and just say it's okay. You can do this. Uh you have to sign a document that you will no way, shape or form use this as a business or allow other individuals to store things on the property. But I think you need to tag on that though just as a clarity point of somehow making sure it would be legit for a farmer in one because that use is allowed in a right but that's what I'm saying. But again, Barnabas could be in a or K1A a land.

So therefore, an a land one, you can't have that if it's for a farming purpose. And notice how I said that if it's for a farming purpose and there's already exemptions built into the UDO for the egg industry. Well, then any of these structures on farmland, it doesn't have that or it has to have a stipulation. But the exception could be for the farm. I think that's a good idea for the rural residential. That's very good. I could just see all kinds of businesses popping up. People think, "Wow, I can build this. I can see all the things that And you know what? And they can do that. They just got to come in and do through the proper channel.

Right. Let's not say you can't you're prohibited. You got to stop for ice and cross more teeth. That that's it for me. Great.

Um actually I after seeing that large house 30 foot against the setback I understand I get that I I agree and I like 50 50% I think that's your breakage. You got something the only thing about business and I how do we tell somebody there there's so many at home business people we actually make somebody stop doing that I mean what there's a there's inh home businesses and then there's excavation businesses business you know what I'm saying there's so many different hooks of business how do you tell somebody you can't have a business you can't have business when they're they got an internet business or you know they're you know they're working from home

piano lesson that that gets really muddy right I mean to me our zoning should take care of whether if they're doing something incorrect out there like like I had a zoning law should take care of that we shouldn't be I don't think we should be adding to this unless we do it to every resident well that's my it's your pleasure what you want to add I think we have guard rail safeguards. Maybe we're not right on top of them, but eventually if someone's running a business,

their neighbors are going to speak up and we we have mechanisms to deal with. I think that's again, as I said before, the more rules you write into things, sometimes you create more loopholes because people are going to take advantage. You keep it real plain and simple and we already got a mechanism in which we can deal with that as they occur. And I'll defer to the county attorney from a legal perspective, but that's my opinion.

I have nothing. Um, I mean, I'm good with it. I mean, I the aesthetics was a question, but with the 100 foot setback, I that's 100% fine. I think it's a good draft. It's a good It's a good first start. You know, will it be perfect? How many things could you add to it? I mean, you could make it 150 million pages. I mean, but I think it's a good first step, you know, to address this because they are being questioned. There are people that do have questions of what they're going to look like, especially if they're putting it, you know, a residential area, you know, rural residential. So, I think this is a good first. I think everybody's answer a lot of the questions that I was going to bring up. So, I'm I'm good with the first.

Okay. Thank you. First, thank you. Yeah, I'm good. Yeah. It's a good start. No doubt about it. I like the 5050%. I I don't think we should go over 50. This is my opinion with 50/50. But I do have a question, a couple questions. I'll talk to the building spects issue to get 50 feet, 40 feet, 50 feet these metal buildings. Are they approved against the high winds or is there concern.

Well, that comes up a lot. Most of the f Let's start. I'm Mike Heler. I'm the Porter County Building Commissioner. Um, most of the inquiries we get are people interested in the style or the construction of the building rather than the use of the building. So, you know, they're thinking, I'm going to build cheaper than

cheap, right? And my standard answer to them is it doesn't matter what you build it out of as long as it meets the Indiana State Building Code. And they all do typically. And those are actually very fancy buildings. And a lot of the companies like Milar and Clearary and uh FDI, you know, they they have products like that. They have entire calendars full of different designs of houses. They're typically not 50% garage, but uh you know, they're very nice. They're very safe. I mean, they're perfectly normal. Okay. I understand some of these have dirt floors. Can or can they have dirt floors? Residential.

Yeah. The 50/50 to 50% that's stored. Could it be dirt floor? Yes, it can. I would also add that the storage portion of the building has to have a modicum of protection between, you know, the vehicle storage and the flammables, that sort of thing, and the residential part. Nothing to do with what the foundation of the house is like or anything like that. The same rules apply to everything. Same. If you got cars in there, you got to dry wall. Yeah. For the fire system.

Okay. I would say in regards to the business operating thing, nine times out of 10, the guy who's going to run a business is going to build a separate structure and he's going to put a separate electrical meter on it. It would be unusual to find somebody building something like that and then running their car repair business out of there. They usually prefer to set those aside and do a separate structure. I probably know one that's actually attached to the house and the rest are all separate. Thank you.

For reference, I was thinking of things while I was sitting back there. There's a house up on 500 North and Froberg Road. Uh is that Frober? That's Frober that goes north and south. Yes.

Yeah. I never can remember. Think. And there is a barn the size of the house sitting there right up next to the road. You know, it's in the front yard. It follows all the rules, you know, whatever you want. But give you an idea of what 50/50 looks like. It's right there. If you go drive past it, you'll see that is probably the worst case scenario. I mean, there are others that are 50/50, but they're cuter. You know, they they're designed to be that way. Did you have your hand up? One of the original

That's what I was asking. Okay. So, these originated out westes. Okay.

Leave your house. Come back in your house. all under that part. That's what we do. But how about our we have again I'm not worried about Okay. Are you 50% or more residential house? If you're over here, you got 10% storage. Yeah. You got 42%. Okay. How much house you got? The moment you click over now you're in a different room.

Okay. One thing I want to ask it wasn't because we received comment from the public on our advertisement in the paper or anything amongst staff and all. I mentioned it early on thing maybe we tune to and make clear was brought to my attention is that increase from 100 feet to whatever that is which I'll address that only is triggered immediately adjacent it in other words it's not all sides then so in other words you're 100 feet front 100 feet side 100 feet back except when you're next to R1 we said now those go to 200 feet it's not meant to be and we may have to clarify that as it approaches the commissioners if you guys want to include that in your motion. I think we need to clarify that so it's absolutely clear it's only on this side adjacent to that other zoning. If it's next to another RR or another egg, the 100 applies. Second, if that trigger is met, we just came up with the 200 feet. It could be 150 feet. It could be 125. That's something else that we wanted to discuss with you too. If you wanted to make a condition to that, we're open to suggestion on that.

Okay. I guess if you we numbers are if somebody came in with something different. That is correct. So if we we set a standard beyond that I I mean not kick it down the road they can look at it and say no absolutely not that's nuts. I say you know what you got behind it. Okay we can come back and if it as Scott said if it becomes a common occurrence then we would come before you and maybe revise this again.

My only suggest you want to keep them Whatever people audience me every foot is harder for the BCA to break down. So I guess it's a long way of saying don't make it too big because it does make it more difficult for those cases we haven't seen yet that we may like but make it big enough we can change it. It's just the larger they become the more difficult it is for it.

I I would suggest that we stick with the recommendation of the Because if it does become an issue and if you have three or four cases that becomes more contentious, we can amend the ordinance and reduce those sizes. Do you want a motion? You got a question? No, sir.

Uh yeah. Uh the attorney brought up uh the fact about uh having animals in this area and that's something that really we didn't address. Would anything be do we need to do anything different about keeping say say that the person was raising horses and they wanted to have you know eight horses in their storage area. Uh is there anything that needs to be addressed to about concerning that? I mean is that something we want we don't want? I don't know. I would think there's people that would like to have be able to have horses.

So that that's about the number of horses. So over bigger than 50% you're in category if you're a certain amount of horses depending on the amount of horses depend on which special exception you're requesting and zoning allows for those but you would but but what you're saying is there could be horses there. could elect him. But there's also a se what he's saying also there's a not only would there be a special exception for barnaminium, there's a special exception used to have the horses to begin with. We just did a case last winter about them when they're over,

but they put living quarters in that one. The BCA had a rule on that. Right. So my my recommendation is allow staff to clarify the adjacencies if you're agreeable to that if you make that in your motion as a condition. So do you want motion tonight? You want to come back or it's up to your pleasure. We have a motion. Okay. Motion for what? to adopt this as recommended by point of order though is

favorable favorable recommendation. Thank you Scott. But a point point of order did Scott this requires a public hearing. Okay. So before we make a motion we have to open the public hearing. Okay. I didn't I left my sheet over there. I want to open a public hearing now. Okay. All right. Like open a public hearing. Anybody any comments? Positive sign. Seeing none, you might have comments or questions or against or seeing none. Public motion. Sorry.

I make a motion to commissioners with a favorable recommendation. May I suggest with the condition to clarify the adjacencies to right you got it. All right. Do we have a second? You got a second from me on the second condition the first agrees with the clarification. All right. We have you want a degree with clarification. Yes. Thank you. Yeah. That's what I was asking for. You want voice or voice or ballot? Yeah. Okay. Thank you. All those in favor say I. I. I.

Those oppos say no. It's pass. Thank you.

Okay. All right. The second item. Hopefully this will go quicker. Um we had uh well no the bar name is pretty heavy stuff. and I really appreciate your feedback. It's really encouraging. Good job working.

The second item on the agenda was packaged as to two things and what what staff is running into problems with or things that administrative approval ways. We're having a lot of people on residential properties and others. there. Uh there's a in 506, chapter 5, section 506, and it's talking about accessory structure, there's an exemptions for the maximum number of accessory structures. Now, it's a two-part question. If you got so many acres of this, so many acres of this, it has different number of structures or areas. and one it's the structures the total number of structures like if you got a oneacre parcel you can only have one structure let's say or two structures and then part B to that is in one acre in that then it's 1300 square feet is the maximum number of so no matter how many structures you got you can't exceed 1300 and accessory structure so what we're having is is we're having a lot of people coming in they're claiming agricultural use as I said in my memo there we've heard things like they they want to plant an orchard, they want to have a larger than average garden, or they want to do some kind of it's pretty obvious to us that the the use of what they're doing, the barn they want to build or the accessory structure far exceeds that. I mean, according to the the second part to that is the agriculture exception, which is uh the barn height. So, we're going to withdraw our recommendation for section 506. As I said in the memo, uh staff wants to take a look at that. I think there's other ways we can handle that a little more deafly, but in theory, you could live in a residential subdivision of 1 acre and you're limited 1300 square feet and you

could put 17 chicken coops at 75 square feet and be within code. Just to kind of give you an illustration. Now, nobody would do that. But I think what's happening here in general, people are using the agricultural use clause, I think, a little too liberally. And that's why we said we only want to do it certain because the true agricultural people in the A1 and A2 districts, we do not want to impede the farmer or anything else like that. Now, we do realize there's some farms that aren't on A1, A2. They could be on R for R1, but again, we got the BZA to fall back on and we can deal with that. I think that's a reasonable crest. So, we're dropping the thing on the number structures. We may come back to you with something else. However, barn height in section uh chapter 5, section 5.20. C-3. It provides uh an exception. And if you can say you got an agricultural use, you can go up to 50 feet tall on any zoning classification R1, R2, R3, all the way up and down the line. So in the past, what they've done is to prove it, they get like a USDA number. Well, there's various USDA numbers. Some of them, they don't even come out and check what you're doing. You just make an application, they give you a number, you got a number aside, and people are coming in with that piece of paper and saying, "We got this." And it's it's not so much we want to penalize people from doing that. What we want is consistency. And without any general guidance or better guidance on that, it's hard to be consistent as time goes on. So what we're proposing is that we remove the exception for all but the A1 and A2. So in other words, the farmer could still come in and and claim

an agricultural exception and get a barn if he or she feels necessary to go to 50 ft on RR R1 and all the other ones. They would not be able to do that. Then again, just like the Barton Dominion, if they happen to be in that unique circumstance that they own 40 acres that's zoned R1 and they wanted to do some kind of operation there that was truly agricultural, they could come before the BCA and make their case. The problem is is we are, as we all know, we're going from pure agrarian community to more residential. Someone told me, and I don't know if this is true or not, but they said we got xund of residential subdivisions incorporated Porter County, which seems like a lot, and I think it is. And it just shows how we're kind of molding, but farming is I saw a stat in the comp plant that we were doing. They said 53% of our ground is still agricultural, considered agricultural land, which is still pretty good size. So, what we're trying really trying to do here is get consistency so we can approve these at administrative level. If we can't do it based on these definitions, then we've got the BCA to fall back on. And that's all we're asking for here is to remove the exception for all zoning except A1 and A2.

Mike, I'm for that. But for more clarity, all of Jackson Township is rural residential. it in spite of the fact my family farm is around Jackson Township and there's still a lot of farms including well Keith is one of dairy farm yeah

well he's just one of many yes farming there but uh it was all rural residential and that amazes people because all the barns and the agricultural uses of the land so there's a big difference between agricultural zoning agricultural use and we see it in our other townships as well. So that kind of creates a problem for our planning enforcement. What is the use? What is the zoning? The other thing is USDA numbers. People go out and get those and make claims with our assessor monitor staff. I can I talked to our sensor today earlier about that and it frustrates them because people think they will get special consideration just by getting the USDA. They're not necessarily in a business. I'll take any questions yet motion.

I'll make the motion a second. motion. Motion to approve, Kevin. I'll second that. All those in favor say I. I. Those opposed say nay. Pass. Thank you very much. We have no other business, sir. Anybody has any any questions? No. We're good. Do we have motions? Second. Second. Okay. All those in favor thank you my man.

Good job. Thank you. Makes a lot of sense. There's a lot of work put into this. Well, I had our staff members and people put a lot of effort in other staff.

I won you over, huh? I never thought somebody would ever I guess the common sense was right out the door. Well, see which one's that? That big one. Oh, he's huge. to somebody's house. Now, this wouldn't be a barn to mini. No, those aren't No, they're not by our definition. That was the thing is I I was concerned about what what clicks them. Yeah. What clicks them is