Plan Commission - Regular Meeting

give them the

I looked at it like no Michigan for lack of no issue issues It looks to me [clears throat] and I'm like

it's [clears throat] localver They've been taking care of it.

It's a regular I I didn't necessarily hear that, but that doesn't it. You're right. I've always maintained the trans I'm a big proponent because it's a drain, right? So, how about this? What if they'll clean it up?

It's up to standard inspect. It's true.

Does everyone get one of these? They Oh, nice.

Yeah,

it was Yeah.

Right.

Everybody ready? Good evening folks. I'd like to call the meeting to order. First item is a pledge algiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for it stands nationy and justice for all. Next [clears throat] roll call. Kevin Britesky

here. Bob, Craig Kenworthy here. Arvin Mner here. Pamela Mishler, Ed Morales here, Red Stone here, Nikki Woodowski here, Rick here. Also in attendance, Mike Jabbo, Susan Hail, and Scott. You have a form. Thank you. Next item, approval of minutes for December 10th, 2025. Do we have a motion? I'll make a motion to approve subject to adding uh Dave Uran's name. He's referred to as Dave throughout the minutes. Should be full name Dave Uran. I'll second that motion. Okay.

So, we have a motion and a second. All those in favor say I. I. Those oppose say no. Okay, it's approved. Any correspondence at this time? Right. Right. Second. Any correspondence at this time? No sir.

Okay. Okay. Let's go to cases. All new new business cases. The first case is DW-206-4. Applicant is Ronald O' Conor Paris Land Surveying Incorporated. Location 603 East 400 South Appraisal Morgan Township doies A1 acreage 1022 request seeking design waiverss for a proposed one lot major subdivision in where major subdivision. The first request of waiver is 6.03 03 conventional subdivision standards and effect on development standards minimum perimeter of landscaping. Next is two 6.03 conventional subdivision standards and effect on development standards. Minimum block length maximum block length minimum call sack length maximum call sack length sidewalks perimeter paths 6.03 03 conventional subdivision standards and effect on development standards. Minimum RO on on local roads, maximum design speed, minimum street width on street parking, minimum tree plot width, minimum sidewalk width. Next is 7.05 05 AC-01 access road standards residential furnish roads proposed lot one access to country country road 400 south next is 7.16 LT-01B 1 lot establishment standard residential no interior street frontage 7.20 20 OP-01

Open Space Standard General. Next is 7.21 0P-02 Open Space Standard Residential. Next is 7.23 PN-01 Pedestrian Network Standard Residential. Next is 7.26 PL-01 Prim Perimeter Landscaping Standard Residential. Next is 7.28 to ASM-01 storm water standards to use storm water requirements from Apex 111-2B minor subdivision instead of Apex 111-2A major subdivision. Next is 7.29 SR-01 street and rightaway standards residential. Next 7.33 SL-01 Street Lighting Standards Residential. And lastly is 7.36 SS SS01- Street Science Standards General.

Okay. Do you need a break? Yes. [laughter] Thanks for all that. [clears throat] Uh my name is David Teams from Teams Lancer. Um 23rd Court in Deont, Indiana. I also have with me Ron O' Conor. Ron O' Conor address address 36 South Seager Road, Valparo. [clears throat and cough]

Okay. Uh we're here to uh request um design waiverss for the 13 items that was mentioned by Mr. Burn. Um this was originally uh it was split out last year. It was originally an 80acre parcel uh which was divided by the previous owner. um uh without without subdivision, which is why we're here asking for all these design waiverss to proceed with a major subdivision uh plat. So that's the reason why we're here uh because of uh the former owner had auctioned everything off and even with the knowledge that it would cause harm to the future owners. But um these there's 65 acres that's going to be continued to be farmed at least for the foreseeable future. Then there's the five acres that's right next to us that's already has a bunch of buildings on it. Um, so obviously that's not conforming, but that's why we're here to ask for a one lot subdivision plat major subdivision and we're asking for all the design waiverss uh because of um to not comply with all those major subdivision requirements. U it is like you mentioned 10 10.22 acres right on 400 South uh just west of County Road 650 East. Uh there'll be one residence on there. is currently half farmed, half wooded area. Um so the small conversion of some of the farm area to residential with driveway. Um obviously um if approved here tonight, we'll be going through the subdivision process uh with plaid as well as storm water to review to review all these items. But as far as tonight, um we're asking for the 13 listed design waivers

um to go forward as a major subdivision. Thank you. Like turn on staff. You want to make your uh comments? If you uh if you looked at the uh staff report, uh we talked about the history of the property. As he said, it was an auction property about a year ago or so. I do remember the auctioneer calling saying it was all one piece. They wanted to split off the house where you see the barns and the house and all and I believe uh that was done and then subsequently split again into these 10 acres. Do I have the chronology right? Yes. And then yeah there's just the one 10acre parcel.

So remember our last meeting we had a little procedure or little demonstration we had a case and we also had a demonstration of what design waiverss are and what they mean. uh simply put because the lot how it was subdivided or how many times it was subdivided. You always start at the administrative level then you go to the minor level and then you got the major level. When you think of major you think of all these big residential subdivisions with all these lots and all that. This is a case where they want to split off and because of the because of the number of times and the way manner in which it was subdivided or parcled out, it wasn't officially subdivided in term, it bumps them up to a major subdivision. That's the way our rules read. Now, that always doesn't make sense because this guy is taking 10 acres, he's going to put a house on it, he's not building roads, he's not planting trees or putting lights in, etc., etc., like that. So very simply put, they're they have to be a major subdivision because of the rules, but they're asking for waiverss to back back down again to a practical. Kevin and other staff members can speak to that, I'm sure, in theiring, but in simply put, that's what they're for tonight. So the choice is yours.

Thank you. A public hearing. Anybody want to speak in favor of this case? Seeing none, you may want to speak against or

I know there's probably not going to be many. [laughter] Conduct a hearing, a public hearing before the commission. The petitioner proponent shall first present the facts and arguments in support of the case. Those who oppose the petitioner shall follow. The petitioner shall have rebuttal. It shall be within the discretion of the commission to impose any time limitation either the petitioner or the respondent and to limit public comment to those determined by state statute to be interested parties. Written remmonstrances shall be accepted by the commission that need not be read into the commission record. This then concludes the public hearing. To maintain orderly procedure, each site shall proceed without interruption by the other. In presentation of a case, the burden shall be upon the petitioner to supply all information necessary for a clear understanding of the problem. The commission may continue the hearing when in its judgment the petitioner has not provided sufficient evidence on which to make a determination. Every person appearing before the commission shall abide by the order and direction of the president. Discourteous, disorderly, or contemptuous conduct shall be regarded as a breach of the privileges of the commission and shall be dealt with as the commission directs. Thank you, sir. Okay, public hearing. Anybody speaking in favor? Seeing none, anybody want to speak against or have any questions? Seeing none, public hearings closed. I can turn over to the board. Kevin, I don't see any problem with this. Uh Mike was referring to we needed a vehicle to deal with some of the explosive growth that was uh coming about. So, we had administrative sub subdivision, a minor subdivision, and several other types of building rights in order to get a buildable site. In this case, this is their last recourse is to do a one lot major subdivision as as absurd as it sounds. It's practical so we don't

have uncontrolled growth out in the county. And in this case, uh these design waiverss all seem appropriate to uh to pass today for the nature of what we're dealing with. Thank you. No issue with it. Okay. Right. Absolutely. No issue at all. I I do have one question. Do you own the whole No, I just I didn't think so. Just 10 acres. Just just the 10 acres by five. [clears throat] Seems reasonable. No questions. Yeah. Good. You're good. Great. No questions, Commissioner. No questions. Okay. Do we have a motion?

Motion to approve design waiver DW 2026-4. Second.

Do we have a motion? Second is Black one What did you see?

[clears throat]

like that. Can't go wrong.

In the matter of case number DW2026-4, the votes are as follow. Kevin Britsky, yes. Craig Kenworthy, yes. Arvid Mkner, yes. Ed Morales, yes. Redstone, yes. Nikki Whitowski, yes. Rick, yes. Motion passes. 70. Thank you. You're B. Thank you very much. Thank you. You have a good evening. Yeah. Nice piece of property. I was just saying the same thing. That piece of property is beautiful. Gorgeous. It does divide off from the other field. So, good break. Yeah, nice piece of land.

Thank you very much. [clears throat] Okay, next case.

Z0-20268. Applicant is Deianne Thouser and Mike Teisma. Location 294 East 2000 North Brazil, Washington Township. Zoning Residential District. Acreage 10.839. 839 request seeking approval for proposed amendment to unify development ordinance to resone a parcel of land from RR Wential District to CM Mig Tennessee commercial district for winery and wedding venue. You're on. Yeah. Mike Tisma uh 294. Just speak closer to Mike.

Yes, I'm sorry. Mike Tisma 294 East 600 North operates out. Thank you. Yeah. Deianne Sasser at 294 East 600 North Valparezo. That's the farm property. Okay. Do you need our home address or the business address? Go ahead. Give me a home, too. Uh, the home address is 253 William Drive, Valparezo, Indiana. Okay. All right. 253. William Drive. Valparezo. Okay. All right. Explain your request. Why do you want the resulting? Yeah, I'll let you do.

Okay. Um, so we bought the property in 2010. totally dilapitated. Um, our idea was to uh repair the house and the structures on the property and turn it into a winery. Um, before we can even get that done, a young gal came to us and asked if she could get married in the closet hut. Um, I initially told her no. I thought she was a little crazy. Um, but she kept coming back. So, uh, we did let her have her wedding there. Um, and, uh, we started our wedding venue. prior to that, I'm sorry, we got our variance from you all um to do all of this. So, that's how it kind of got started and then we um opened the winery in 2021. So, the wedding venue got started first. Um we operated that with success with no complaints, no problems. We opened up the winery in 2021 right after COVID lifted and we're able to do so and that's been in continuous business from that point forward again without any problems um or any complaints. We put um all of our time and effort and finances into the property. We've improved the property. So any of you that might have known the property before we purchased it, it was a mess. Um a horrible mess. So, we've brought uh cleaned up everything, repaired everything, and um we're in the process actually of uh rebuilding out the old barn that had fallen apart. Um so, we're in the process of doing that as we speak now. Um and that will be added to the winery um wedding business at the bigger space for the winery and another event space and then give us more kitchen space um so that we're not cooking stuff in the same place where we're making our wine. So that's in the process of being built out right now. Um our concern and why we're here today is

that we've been working on a variance um since 2011. Um which is really scary because we've invested everything into this. Um and it's worrisome that all of this time, effort, and money um be just on a variance. So we would like to go commercial so that it's um makes me sleep a little better at night um and then just move forward that way. So, we don't intend on making any changes from we've been continuing to do since the time we bought the property. It's all going to be the same. The only difference is the barn, which we've already permitted to start building and and whatnot. Um so, that will expand it a little bit more. Um but, um it will continue in the same fashion that we've been doing business since we've started.

Okay. All right. you want to explain this handout or something.

So that's a handout. Yeah. So just to um you all an idea um what the property looks like? Um I tried to get some old photos um that they were so bad I didn't even want to include them. Um so essentially um it's just letting you know that there's essentially six structures on the property. Um all of them were original to the property except the addition um that we added on to the quanza hut for bathroom a bridal suite that needed to be done for um you know use of bathrooms and whatnot. Otherwise all of the structures that are on the property have been there since we bought the property. We've just repaired them um and uh fixed them up. Um the winery itself, as you can see, we've um you know, built the deck um that was crumbling and falling apart. So, we built on the deck. Um the house um which is a 1870s homestead house, been there forever. Um has been repurposed, been repaired, um to house the current winery and tasting room. Um the old farmers market um that used to sell like corn and Christmas trees and things like that has been repurposed into an outdoor bar. So that's um where we can serve wine and slushies and beer. And underneath the market roof, we've um put seating out there so people can sit and enjoy the outdoors and drink wine. Um we have the acorage that people can walk around and do that as well. Um in the summer months we partner with um various um organizations and we do like a 5K run for charity. We have craft shows. We have um car shows. I'm a fishian of old

cars. I like them. Um so we do old car shows. Um we do um craft shows, scratch kitchen festivals where we invite people who like bake goods and uh make salsas and things like that to come out and the community comes out and um enjoys those types of markets um as well as the wine. um the wedding venue that operates on the weekends essentially. Every once in a while we have I think twice now a wedding that they might have a specific date during the week that they want to get married, but otherwise that operates on the weekends seasonally just May through October. There's no heat or air conditioning out there. So we go from May, not a whole lot of weddings in May, but through October and weekends only essentially Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Um we have um we don't have a commercial kitchen out there, so everybody that does a wedding has to bring in their own caterer. Um the uh alcohol is served either off a beer or wine permit, which we're able to get to serve wine out there, or they hire a liquor caterer. Um we do have Porter County Police Department come out um and they um provide security for every wedding. Um and um the parking for both facilities. I think there's a map on the very last page that's going to kind of give you an oversight. So the parking um is shown in that diagram. We have parking next to the venue itself and then another uh parking area that's next to the barn. The parking area that's next to the barn is a little bit torn up right now with all the construction barn, but then that will be repaired back to the way um it was originally. Um and I think that's about it. We just

hope to maintain the same type of activities and weddings and things that we've done since we've opened the wedding venue in 2017 in the winery in 2021. Okay. Well, thank you. Nice presentation. Thank you. I'd like to turn over to staff. Very nice presentation. Um [clears throat] pretty much she outlined a lot of things that were in the staff report. If you looked at the staff report, um Mr. you intimate with this because you're the one that granted the use variance for five years. Yeah. From the start. Yeah.

So, that's set to expire now. So, as she said, she's petitioning the board here to get a amendment so that they don't have to keep coming back. Uh we're here to report that we've have no record of any complaints of any kind from neighbors or other people in the five years that they've been out there. uh when it was approved in 2021, Dave, the five-year use variance, you did put a stipulation on their hours of operations on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays. Maybe a proper question to them is what are the hours of operation? Do they have other days of the week and all? Maybe that could be in your line of questioning to your satisfaction. [snorts]

Uh they did appear before the development review committee on March 5th for an informal roof uh uh review and as she said they've refurbished on a number of buildings on the property and I think you're still working with the state and our office to get other permits from Yep. I just turned in the last piece of information requested um by Mike Caller actually yesterday and in the current form they don't intend to make any other improvements of property trigger a site development plan they currently can park I think by their estimation of 100 cars on their property they going to adequately I think so this

so uh that's pretty much it did a good job presenting thank It's a public hearing. Anybody want to speak in favor? Seeing none, anybody want to speak against? Any questions? Seeing none, public hear, uh, we discussed this in the development review. And one thing I want to make sure of is that we don't have parking out on the county road at any time. Nobody should be lining up out there. Our officers should be out there. Although, it sounds like you already have a couple out there. Yeah, you'll be required. Yeah.

Uh for certain size crowds to have a police presence. And to make it clear, that's you hire the officers as kind of a side job for them. Uh the uh bottom line is I think we really need written commitments with this and there's a lot of permitted uses with commercial properties. And if I could be as bold as to suggest that you limit uh the permitted uses the banquet hall, farmers market, office general, party that store, photographic studio, plant nursery, uh recreation center, play center, restaurant, retail low intensity. And that pretty much eliminates a lot of the other options that would give us heart. By the way, winery is not listed as a permanent use, but you don't really have a vineyard here. Oh, we do.

We do. You do have a vineyard. We do. Uh here again, uh we have agricultural uses and I think all the agricultural uses are acceptable.

[laughter] We have Yeah, we have 10 chickens and two barn cats. Well, we just eliminate the exotic animal. Yeah, we could raising farm animals. [laughter] No tigers. Yeah, no tigers. And I suspect by exotic they mean more like tigers and lions. [laughter] That's it. That's it.

Uh yeah, that's my uh suggestion. And also have written commitments about hours of operation. Uh the noise the noise connected with that. And the police limit to 100 cars. He can only have so much space out, right? I agree with Kevin on every everything he listed. We cover it pretty well. Yeah. Same here. You're good. Great. I just We're eliminating a lot of these. Yeah. Do I mean, did we say we keep coffee shop? I mean, I I don't know how much we want to pigeon hole.

No, I think I think Sorry. No. Say nothing. What What were you saying, Kevin? I mean, I just want to make sure I'm hearing it. Yeah. I I don't see that as a place for a coffee shop personally. Well, I just It's not likely. Uh I didn't know if that was something coffee bar. They have I don't see I don't know where it goes into a coffee shop if they have a coffee bar. I That's what I You know, you're having a wedding and somebody wants to have coffee. Well, they can't. They can't. They can't. Well, I I don't know. I don't know. You know, we're I don't want to keep these guys from having viable business when they so with me they can come back to us

they're concerned or discern is if they ever sell the property okay so okay and we want to make sure what what goes in there in the future too that's that's issue okay I districts that would be the least amount of traffic. Yeah. So he's attemped to leave the core of the zoning so that the property isn't only but I think he's attemper

I'm fine with the recommendations. You're fine. Okay. Hey Mike, so I could clarify the commitments we have in the past. It was the hours and and parking, right?

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And we abide by that. Yeah. Okay. How about park? How about parking? Well, wait. I thought that one thing that was missing in time. What about the other days of the week? Are you only open on those three days? So, the wedding venue primarily is a weekend thing. Um, the the winery is year round. We're open Wednesday through Sunday from 11 till 6. Sometimes we do stay open a little later, like we might have like a uh wine and canvas, like where the ladies come and paint, drink wine. That might be like 6:30 to 9:30. Sometimes we might have somebody rent it out for a birthday party, but that's only 6:30 to 9:30.

But I think specifically the variance use variance you got before just strictly meant noise. You could be open longer than that. No, is if there is a wedding. Oh, I'm sorry. The only question I say is if you're comfortable with what you proved before that was just Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Yeah. Maybe make a general statement on the other days that time will be that would make that statement complete. Yeah. If there happened to be a wedding on a Thursday, which we had we not have a wedding, it's just loud noise. Yeah. Yeah. Associated 10 o'clock rule. 10 o'clock rule Monday through Yeah. Thursday. Yeah. I would say 10 o'clock Friday.

Yes. Now what I recall I thought there was a parking issue from when we first started you extended the gravel area for Yes. So on that plan 100 cars are we still locked in that amount? I'm just going with what they present that the approximately 100. Yeah, it's approximately 100. The the gentleman that put it in thought there could be 150 but the way people park out there. Well, what have been have we been experiencing? you know, I we've had no parking issues. We haven't had anybody not be able to park out there [clears throat] um or like run out of parking.

Um so, it's probably the way the parking guy made it, it's probably made for close to 150, but the way people park out there, they just kind of pull it. They don't park in their spot. It's probably only a hundred. We were I'll park on a county road. Yeah. We haven't had any. No, nobody's ever had the need to have to do that. So, are we safe to say 150 or or how about we say?

Yes. Right. Perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Do that. That sounds good. Yeah. Okay. All right. Do we have a a motion to recommend? I I'll make a motion to recommend as stated for uh to the county commissioners for ZO 2026-8 and I will second that and that's with all the commitments we talked about with all the commitments. Now before you make the motion I do want to run down I got the list in front of me if we can one more time so we can mark our sheet. What uses are you prohibiting? prohibited or acceptable.

Allowable. All right. What's allowable then? Do you want? Yes. Okay. Agriculture, all agriculture uses except for raising exotic animals for the commercial uses. Banquet hall, farmers market, office general lower events is okay. Yes. Continue. Party/event store. Okay. Photographic studio. How about plant nursery? If they plant nursery is next.

Okay. Recreation center. Play center. Restaurant. Retail. Low intensity. Assessing re. How about studio arts? We could do studio arts. I didn't see that. [snorts] Yes. And then go back. You said office, general, party, event store, photographic studio. That Yeah. Very. Yep.

So, it's with those conditions. No parking on the road. And Monday through Thursday, no loud noises after 10 p.m. Friday and Saturday, no noises after 11 p.m. Mike, when we say no, you say no no no music, no bands after 10:00. I think the intention was Okay. So we understand creates I think you should. So there's understanding. Okay.

Okay. So, we have a motion in a second. Bot vote. I agree. That's blank. There's an actual

There's an actual Matter. Letter of case number Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z 2026-8. The votes are as follows. Kevin Britky, yes. Craig Kenworthy, yes. Harvard MKner, yes. Ed Morales, yes. Redstone, yes. Nikki Wakowski, yes. Rick Burns, yes. [clears throat] Motion to send to favorable recommendation commissioner pass 70.

What's What would be the date? the commissioner. It'd be three weeks from next. Yes. Well, commissioner Hang on a second. I'll give it to that would be April 21st, 10:00 a.m. this room. So we come back again. Yes. Okay.

And there'll be another public hearing. You'll make make youration to the commissioners. It'll be the first reading. They won't vote to go to the second reading. Won't be official until they have their second reading which will be three weeks after that. So three weeks even after the 21st. That'll be the second reading. That's when the commission will take the vote to approve or not approve. Okay. Okay. And just call our office. We'll be happy to help you with the calendar. Okay, I just like to make a comment. These folks started the property was run down. Remember that, Scott? Debbie, I think you were out there. I made the Yeah, I'm I'm impressed. You guys did really

Yeah, it looks very nice. It looks beautiful. I was Kevin and I were just saying it's beautiful piece of property. I think you were out there, too. Weren't you way back? Buildings been a lot. When I tell you first when I first walked out to I might have attended a wedding. Okay. You cannot believe the stuff we found out there. We don't even want to talk about this stuff. [laughter] Nice job. Yeah. Thank you very much. Very nice. Okay. Next on agenda is staff reports. Okay. Mike, whenever you're ready. you guys.

So, update on the comprehensive plan. Um, can't remember if we had uh we did have a public open house. I think I reported that at your last meeting. We will be having a steering committee meeting on April 14th at the expo center between 5 and 7 PM. So those you people here on this uh panel are on steering committee. As always, the plan commission welcome to attending. You're welcome.

April 14th. Uh, a lot of you don't know this, the commissioners don't and the RDC doesn't, but I'm scheduling on April 13th, the day before a joint meeting of the plan commission, the RDC and the commissioners. This will be a meeting where our consultant and planning staff will make a presentation where we are in this and we want your feedback from uh elected or appointed officials position. We feel that the commissioners are important because they hear a lot of cases that got up their way that they got to [clears throat] form an ordinance. I think the RDP is be there. Number one, they paid for it. But number two, some of the decisions they make economic development, this is important for them to understand the comprehensive plan and gives them some guidance on what they can do. And then of course, it's very important for the plan commission to be there. Uh this is a guiding document that not only guides who helps guide you in your decisions from a high level. It also puts focus on the uh unified development ordinance. So your input is very important in this process though we would like to see all three of the bodies as many members as they tend will meet in here. I think we can set it up so you can all sit on the wing tables and the dies. I think we can get you all in here and the consultant will be here hour and a half, two hours if need be. You're free to leave early if you have other commitments. What time on April 13th

on the 5:00 pm 5 or 5:30? 5:00 pm.

So important stage as they go in and then in May they will be giving us draft 1.0 for us to review. It'll be a very rough shaped form of the document uh for staff to review and then there'll be other iterations 1.1 1.2 whatever it takes. Uh we will then be also presenting again to each of the bodies individually the document that's there. It'll have to go to the commissioner. I think it should come to the plan commission for adoption. Send it up a recommendation to the commissioners and then the commissioners will have to approve it in the form of an ordinance. So a lot of action probably going to go on the next three this year as far as the comp plan. Are there any questions on the comp plan specifically? Okay, plan commission subcommittee update. We are having a meeting next Tuesday. Uh that will be held downstairs in the conference room for some of you that are part of that uh effort. U we had our meeting in January, early January kind of kick things off. Susan, I and other staff members gave them kind of a quick rundown what the UDO looks like and the importance of it. Now we're going to get down to some brass tax, some cases. I'm finishing up the agenda. Got three cases we want to take a look at. We're not going to solve them all maybe in one night and all, but we're going to give you the synopsis of the case so you can take a look at it. Again, any of you are welcome if you want to attend to observe if you're not on the committee already. I know there's a fair amount of you that are appointed to the subcommittee, but that'll be going on next Tuesday. summary of signed legislative bills. Uh some of you uh we talked about this before, House Bill, now it's House Enroll Act 1001.

Um by and large, they've given us two years to figure out how we're going to solve or what's another word to use it accommodate attainable housing. And the way I see it is, but the way you can do that may have to be a combination of different things if that's what the county is so inclined to. That may include zoning changes or putting zoning in certain areas to encourage certain kinds of housing development occur in certain areas. It can include andor things in the UDO make it more clear that these types of things. So, I've been meeting with developers, contractors, and uh one attorney so far. I I hope to talk others that are in this business, and they say to get the housing, you got to get a little more densification. Now, out in the country, that makes no sense because you don't have utilities, right? That's that's a that's deal breaker. Near around the perimeters of cities and town, they have the possibility. doesn't mean the city or town has to give them utility water and sewer, but the possibility is great. Um, what they're talking about less width in the lots with maybe getting houses down to 1500, 1800 square feet instead of 2500 square feet. It may include things such as town homes. And the way I see town homes, they come in two different classes. There's the ones that are relatively inexpensive and easy to buy in scheme of things. And I've seen town homes that are quite done nicely and your maintenance is all taken care of. You don't have to paint your house. You don't have to mow your lawn. You don't have to cover your snow. So, they have different scales of of

And then the big thing down there was things like the multi-units such as duplexes, patio home, things like that. Yes,

Mike. I got a couple it works [clears throat] couple questions. Um, so this house and road act bill that they passed is pretty much um and it was I think introduced by a developer downstate to get this passed. Um, how so what happens after two years? Are they going to look at our plan and say, "Oh yeah, we like this plan. You're fine, Porter County." they go through all all the counties and and and say, "Oh, we like your plan. We don't like your plan." Because I just think it's it's it's it's abhorrent for downstate to tell us how to run our communities. I think it's it's especially when a developer is the one who introduces the bill and they're doing it for money, which I think is sickening. Um, so I'm not going to be up here saying, "Hey, great. Let's try and acquies to down state." I mean, that that's just me personally. I think it's, you know, I think we understand when people come in front of us what we want, what what they want, we work with a lot of people and for someone to do that, I think is I think is wrong personally. And my other thing is if you want to say you want a bunch of apartments, well, you know, instead of sighting, we could always use go back to brick because, you know, I work in Cal City and I'll tell you, you look them houses, they're small, they're dense, but guess what? They're still standing and they're beautiful because they're brick. So, I don't know if that's a possibility, but personally me, I don't want to have a county where we have a bunch of sighting, small little dinky houses and, you know, grouped up on one another out in the county. I mean, I want this thought out, but it just it kind of pisses me off, believe it or not, that they're trying to tell us how to do our job when we're sitting here for hours every month and going to subcommittee meetings and going to all these meetings to try and figure it out. It's it's sickening if you ask me. Well, the way of the bill and I appreciate everything you said. That's

and I know you guys fought, you and Ed went down there and and fought really hard and put in a lot of time and I thank you for that as well. Well, our pleasure. That's our job.

But you know, I agree with all the sentiments you said, Councilman. Um, it sure beat the alternative the bill Ed and I were dealing with originally. I think the Senate did it right. They they basically said locals, you got the control to figure out your solution yourself. So, I'm taking it for what it is. We got this annual reporting. They're going to be using that to kind of monitoring what's going on. And maybe through the annual reporting, they find out it's not as big a problem as is. However, I did hear one fact when I was down there. They said they are short. one of the builders association or the realators, I forget which one represent Indiana said they were short five,000 units a year in the state of Indiana. They're not producing enough of them now.

But you know that I mean and I'm not going to get on my high horse, but this is a lot macro than us trying to solve it. A city, Velzo, Porter County, even the state of Indiana, they can do little tweaks. they can do some things, but this is just on such a macro level to try and say affordable housing. Unless you're going to take out of my pocket and subsidize housing, it's kind of very hard to have affordable housing.

And I would say that's part of pointed out We do have the urban city that are being developed right now. And so maybe your point is in such a long concern about when you're adding our early may have so We think this works

right and and to me the affordability part it it's frustrating for me because even in say the town of Chesterton we have a lot of beautiful small homes the problem is they were bought up by investors they don't care about them they don't you know they they're renting them and we have a you know like Bailey school there's a lot of people coming in and out a lot of transient people coming in, they'll rent for one or two years, they leave. And that's more of a problem than a affordable homes. There's affordable homes on the market if the investor would, you know, would sell them. But hell, man, I think they're getting $2,500 for like a little teeny house. So there's

exercise and if it can be what products would make us feel comfortable long I just, like I said, when it comes to the role parts, and this is just me speaking off the cuff here personally. I don't mind the subdivisions. I mean, everybody knows we're going to have subdivisions, but it just seems like everybody wants to pack, you know, in a in a beautiful area, they want to pack, you know, 500 houses where it really should be 350. And to me, I just don't think I I I don't look at like in my this this this is my county. I live here. And if everybody agrees that that's not what we want, that's we should be able to I don't think that's what that discussion is to me the affordable housing discussions in the fridge where you can do density products that aren't single single lots or lots whether or not two single family owns rear potentially look at something like

okay you need to I think go ahead you need to take a look too as far as what's going on nationwide as well as in the county

I've noticed over the last few years large investors are ripping through Porter County whether it's Black Rockck Blackstone whoever and buying up all the rental properties uh theoretically the the lowincome housing where where people could at least have a decent place to live. The other thing that that's going on if you look at the the census in the United States around the year 2030 the number of deaths will start exceeding the number of births. So over a long period of time the housing crunch will relieve itself to some that could be 20 50 years [laughter]

grow my I'm at the tail end of the baby boomers. So so when I pass away there's going to be a big drop in the population. These are all valid points. It's not like two years to get this done but that's going to go by fast with all got to do.

Absolutely. My initial observation is the state gave us grace. This thanks thank the senate. They did I think they did the right thing by giving the authority and the power or the thinking through this back to the municipalities and the counties. That's the way I see it and I think there is room. I've been thinking about this before. Are there key places that we can put like an R4 zoning which is a multifamily type zoning classification? We have the power to be strategic and say that will occur here, here, here, and here. I think that's a one of a very quick solution that we can do. Putting it in a place that makes sense to address a lot of the comments that you've all said so far. It could be as simple as that. And we've satisfied the requirement if you follow me saying. So, there's going to be a lot of thought about going this, but we also have to recognize a couple things. First of all, they call it affordable housing. I don't like that term. I think it should be more attainable housing.

There you go. I agree with that

because affordable housing each and every one of us sitting in this room is a different parameter whereas attainable I think that more [clears throat] true. Um so I think it's a combination of zoning and maybe tweaking in our UTO and stuff and that's why in the comp plan I gave the consultant this stuff so we can have those discussions with you as elected officials and appointed board members. How do we, you know, they're going to give you 20,000 foot guidance on what you should be doing. We're going to have a blob over here said maybe you should think somewhere over here, whether it's housing or whether it's manufacturing or uh industrial, etc. like that. That's what the comp plan does for you. So, if you think about it, it's hitting us at Porter County at the right time.

Right time. Because we're paying

because we're doing the comp plan. So, we can roll it in there to give us guidance going in the future. It's not going to say this lot right here or on this road right here. It's going to say generally over here's some tools you can use etc etc. So first it's attainable housing. Two we control our own destiny is the way I see it. And I think we can thoughtfully and very efficiently get to that solution to so show we did our job. Now if Porter County is the only one county out of 92 that does it then we got to go with a lot of the rest of them. But I think we got to keep close to our legislators. They're going to have summer sessions. We're talking about this. We'd like to get invitations to that so we know what's going on. We got a pulse on it because if that bill had to pass, it was originally presented. We would be having an entirely different discussion.

We'd have no say. No say whatsoever. No say whatso. Well, see, but this is where can I I'm curious. Does it when they're talking about so much attainable housing, is it a percentage of houses that are being developed? I mean, what's the guidelines of how many when we start cutting out land for attainable housing is there so many we have to have or I'm just that's part of the they didn't put it in that way. What they did was a blanket approach that basically any residential we have six residential classes. They said a duplex or an accessory dwelling unit could go on any one of those six. Oh, okay. I didn't res

it was a lot size. This was more of a sledgehammer fix more. and and you know there's beautiful little duplexes in Chesterton and so it's not like I'm against duplexes. What I'm against is people building them renting they'll keep them as investors. They have a bunch of them. They don't take care of them. If if if we could kind if they were condoed off as affordable housing like you own the duplex one half one half I have home ownership I have no problem with. But when you start, you know, having all these investors not take care of their stuff,

that's what I have a problem with. mandatory only. Let me explain. I don't mean the outside line. [snorts] I mean the interior wall. It's required. So they get the zero line because that allows it to be sold separately. Separate the single family home and then the cities have been are like 500 to 600 grand for whole. So then you get down to half of that for one side or the other,

right? So does it technically stop somebody from coming in 600,000 both sides? No. However, because they're separately like that and can be sold, what the cities have been that's what has been happening, right? They're not necessarily brand new and then they're being bought at both ends of the spectrum or younger

in case as they have homeowners association incorporate property owners associations that take control over all those areas that we've seen grievance on. One of the key points of this that I think we need to address is accessory dwelling unit. where people used to put in mother-in-law houses all the time. We have very restrictive on that and that's been reintroduced in this legislation. And that was really a focus of the legislation that and taking the ability to do zoning away from the locals which really set most of us off that they were going to take control at the state level for zoning

and be in charge of it but not be responsible for it. It was just going to come back to our counties and cities. I read you had some as as specifically as you can because you guys met with folks down state. what is the problem they're trying to solve?

They called it uh the bill was labeled quote unquote housing matters and the buzzword was affordable housing. Now the the author of the bill who is in the building industry and all that too. He correctly identified there's an unsatisfied market. There is an unsatisfied market. Why? Because people like me I'm sitting in my house. Why am I going to give up a super low interest rate and go build a house that's going to cost me twice as much to get what I got today? That's the senses we're in right now.

So, people like myself are not moving out of our house to create that room so people can go up and then the more attainable housing down to the bottom level are available. That's one factor. There's a whole bunch of factors why it's in the circumstance it is. Well, the from what I could see the real estate market for a while now has been gridlocked. Typically, when the interest rates are low, house prices will be a little higher and vice versa. Now, the interest rates are high, the home prices are high, and so everything's gridlocked, and nothing's moving. Specifically, to your point,

some reason there's money out there because they're still building five, $600,000 houses. Now, what I've seen twice within the last few years is is people that I've known have came in and and paid full asking price. Someone's asking 250, fine, here you go, only to be outbid from other people coming from out of state. So, I I guess part of the concern is we're going to build affordable housing to draw more people from outside the region. And I don't know that that's legit, but I could see

Well, and I don't want you to feel that it's the county's burden to solve all the problems because the cities and towns got it too because um dense housing, especially when you get that dense, what you call an apartment or really dense town homes work really well in the urban environment because they can walk to school, they can walk to the door, they can walk to the playground and all that kind of stuff. Plus, they can get the utility and the services that a city offers.

So, I think where we have utility, where we can't do it, we should be open to the notion of that. For instance, like down near Aberdine, they got their own utilities down. If they got the capacity to serve, hey, if they can check that box off, I think that's a consideration. It's not a promise. But to go out in the middle of the country in some cornfield and all of a sudden build funds duplexes, no, that's not going to work. And the the problem with the bill as it were re previously wrote, they could go do that, but it was our job to prove they couldn't do it. It should be the other way around. They should prove to us that they could do it. And that's what we didn't like in the bill. And that got since jettisoned. So, so there'll be more discussions. Ultimately, it's going to be the commissioners. They're going to approve anything that this body or any other body comes up with. But we got to do our homework over the next two years because two years is going to be here before we know. And if you got to go through zoning changes, that's an arduous task. It can be very emotional. I've seen [clears throat] before. What are you putting that zoning here for? So it's a lot of work going into that stuff. So path staff is up to the task. We're going to use the subcommittee kind of help us with that. We're going to use the comp plan to help us.

Last question. Are there other communities who are ahead of the curve so we're not reinventing the wheel?

It's hard to say. I know in Porter County, Town of Porter finished their comp plan not just over a year ago. Chesterton will be wrapping theirs up this first quarter. Valpo just started theirs. Portage will be starting theirs. And then there's us. So, as far as comp plan goes, whether or not they're going to embrace this notion and put it in their comp plan remains to be seen. Uh there's going to be some here. Let's look at this. There's 92 counties in Indiana. Porter County is what? The 10th most populous. It's probably the 10 most popular place to build a home, too, if not lower. This is going to affect Johnson County, Elcart County, Hamilton County, all those collar counties around Indianapolis. Why? Because they're the most popular places to build houses. And Porter County is in that list, too. I would say the rule that they were trying to pass would impact those 10 counties the most, us.

I just think it's a shame that in my opinion that this bill was crafted strictly for, you know, developers because it got touted as an affordable housing bill and it was not affordable housing and it's not an affordable because they were complaining about you go to these counties and we don't want to sit here in front of Porter County and you know go to BZA, go to plan, go to the go to that. They want to just come in and do whatever they want. And I I just think that's I think that's wrong. I think that's But fortunately those parts got taken up. Yeah. But if they It was clo Mike. Look at how we had to fight to get that out. Are you kidding me? I mean that was close to getting

I I don't know. I Ed and I went down there. I even from the senators on the board. They voted yes only to see it on the floor to see if they could change it, but they all voted no eventually. The the frightening thing about it is is that they all had the mindset that it was a horrible bill, but we're going to pass it out of committee anyway, and we're going to fix it on the floor, and nothing ever gets fixed on the floor. So, you know, my interpretation of this bill was it was a feel-good bill that hid under the words affordable housing. Had nothing to do with affordable housing. All it really did was deregulate the fact that they didn't have to come here for zoning and they could, the builders could build whatever they wanted, wherever they wanted. Now to your question, Arvin, did any other communities, this is the way I took your question, any other communities already have something in plan?

No, they didn't because there were a lot of other uh commissioners, mayors that were in that hearing as well that felt the same way we did because, you know, it becomes to it all becomes an infrastructure issue where you can handle this, what can be built, where and they all had concerns about it. And even though that there were some communities that had built affordable housing, it still comes down to the raw material costs that you can't control. So, you know, it just it just wasn't it wasn't in my opinion, it just wasn't a very wellthoughtout bill. And in my opinion, it really had nothing to do with affordable housing. It's just they wanted to to to push something through to where these builders could build something quicker without having to come through a lot of processes. In my opinion, um the good thing about it is is that I've seen with a lot of these bills, even including the consolidation bills that they have, is that they've at least backed off to a point where, you know, you can figure it out or we're going to come back and figure it out for you because that seems to be the mindset down there right now in my opinion. You know, you either take care of it on your own and if you don't then we're going to come back and do it for you. And so they gave us some time, right, Mike? Couple years away maybe, but you know, I guess what I'm trying to say is just it's just like the consolidation bills of the past. You know, if you come up with a plan or they at least see you working on trying to fix a problem in some way, shape or fashion, then maybe, you know, you may be left to be able to make up your own decisions. But will a lot of these things be revisited again? Sure. I think so, Mike. You know,

plus you're going to have maybe new elected officials. Sure. Sure. You know, it That seems to be the mentality of all these hearings, you know.

Any other questions? We'll move you out of here. All right. Lastly, staff and I thinking, you know, every time we'll take a few minutes every meeting, maybe bring something out of more of like a five education session. Last session, we talked about what the role of design waivers are. Did have case on the on the agenda last week. Now we're talking about the difference between design waivers and development standard varian. Now a lot of you know the difference between the two design waiver that's decided by the plan of code because you're saying basically take the word for what it is. Anything that's designed like sidewalks, landscaping, roads, street lighting, these are actual design elements, you're given a waiver on those and that's what you prove tonight too for that guy that was before us here. And those are chapters six and seven in the UDO. That's where those progress. And if you look at the UDO, it's kind of set out that way. You can kind of you what chapter in, you know what you're dealing with. Development standards variances, that's the board of zoning appeals or the board of zoning appeals hearing officers. They're the only body that get to decide those. And of course, you got a couple of your members sit on the full board and then of course the hearing off which also sits here. You can see the chapters where those apply. These are getting into things like lot width, setbacks, etc., etc., like that. So, remember last time I had the graphic, we showed there's a lot of downstream activity that occurs. They may come to you for zoning and then later you may see them back for a design waiver from you guys. Then they'll be back to you for a subdivision. So, you may see them three times by the time they get a final product. Whereas on the development standards, then they have to pause before they come to you and go to them and get those variances before on something. So, it's kind of an orchestrated effect. I just want you to, you know, just put it out there if there's any questions, but we'll talk

more about this meetings. I don't mean to labor an entire meeting, but every meeting will bring up a little for you for you. Is there a print out of this? I have copies right here. Thank you. That's all I have, Mr. Chairman, unless there are any questions. That's it. Okay. Do we have a motion to motion to Second. Second. All in favor to adjourn. I. Those opposed? I think so. Thank you.

Thank you. Have a good night. I told you.