Cable Advisory Committee - public_hearing

Good afternoon and welcome to Pittsburgh City Council's cablecast public hearing for Wednesday, September 2nd, 2026 relative to Bill 2026-0518. Will the clerk please read the title of the bill?

Bill 518, ordinance establishing an East Carson Street Improvement District For the area shown on Exhibit A, at the behest of the East Carson Street Business District Advisory Committee, property owners and business owners to be benefited with specific improvements to be undertaken including, but not limited to, financing of said improvements, method of assessing specific properties to be benefited, establishing a neighborhood improvement district management association to conduct administrative procedures for the neighborhood improvement district, providing for the establishment of a separate account for deposit and withdrawal of project funds, and providing for the cost thereof.

For the record, we are joined by Councilwoman Salinetro. Other members may be joining us shortly. Our first order of business will be a brief introduction of the legislation. We have a presentation. All right. So when we were here on July 8th, we were very clear that what we were presenting is still a draft and the public process would continue. It did. Since that hearing, we continued meeting and talking with property owners. We were answering questions, following up on concerns, and making sure that people had access to clear information about what was actually being proposed. On August 25th, we held an additional property owner information session. We walked through the plan in detail with a large focus on addressing the questions we'd been hearing and provided other opportunities for owners to ask questions directly. That work was important because our goal wasn't simply to present a plan. It was to listen, make sure people understand it, and take their feedback into account. Today, we're back before council to show you what we heard, what we clarified, and importantly, what changed as a result of the process. So let me start with the questions and concerns we heard most often. We heard recurring questions about the boundary, how the assessment works, who would govern the organization and control the funds, what services would be provided, and how those services relate to what the city already provides. We made a concerted effort to share that information, answer questions directly, provide additional detail where it was needed, and create more opportunities for property owners to ask questions and understand the proposal. At the first hearing, we said this was still a draft and we would continue to listening and performing outreach. So we listened, we provided more information, we clarified the plan and the feedback identified something that should change, we made changes. The clearest example of that is the proposed boundary. Susan is gonna walk you through what changed and why.

I want to take a moment to clarify how the proposed boundary was established and why certain areas are included. The top map shows the LNC or Local Neighborhood Commercial boundary in pink. That commercial corridor along East Carson Street was the starting point and the foundation for the district. The bottom map shows the proposed NIDMA boundary. It largely follows the LNC corridor with a few specific additions that are directly connected to the commercial district. Bedford Square is included because it serves as a hub for events, programming, and public space activation. The 10th Street corridor is included because it is an important gateway into East Carson Street. The northern side of South 14th Street up to Sarah Street was added after commercial property owners expressed interest in participating and was determined to be directly connected to the corridor. As feedback came in, we reviewed the boundary within that same framework. Feedback informed the review, but it did not change the basis on which the district was established. Where a refinement was supported, it was made. Simply put, the top map shows the commercial foundation. What you see on the lower map is the final proposed boundary, still grounded in the LNC commercial corridor and the specific areas that function as part of the district. With that framework in place, there are a few other elements of the plan that are important to clarify. Who pays, who controls the organization and its funding, and what the investment is intended to accomplish. First, this is an assessment of commercial property within the proposed district. Second, and very important to emphasize, the Management Association would be an independent nonprofit governed by an owner-controlled board of directors made up of the very people paying the assessment. That means people investing in the district will have direct responsibility for how those dollars are used. The board will establish the annual budget, set priorities, and determine how district funds are invested within the parameters of the approved district plan. The money stays here, the decisions are made here, and the people paying the assessment have a direct voice in how it is invested. So what is that investment intended to accomplish? The plan identifies four primary outcomes. Improve the experience on East Carson Street, strengthen the district's brand and reputation, grow the economy, and drive more traffic and spending into the commercial corridor. The activities in the plan are how we work towards those outcomes, dedicated district management, business recruitment, marketing and promotion, events and programming, storefront activation, property owner support, and grant writing. The city would continue providing municipal services while existing organizations and volunteers would continue the work they already do. The NIDMA provides the dedicated funding, staffing, and organizational capacity to carry out this commercial district work consistently over time.

Through one-time temporary funding, we were able to bring Susan Anderson on as our business district manager and begin testing what it looks like to have someone consistently focused on the East Carson Street commercial corridor. With an incredibly limited operating budget and no dedicated staff, Susan has worked directly with businesses and property owners. She's recruited new businesses and has helped connect vacant storefronts with prospective tenants. Additionally, she's built partnerships with the government agencies and community groups, coordinated public space improvements, developed new district marketing tools, and created events and programming designed to bring customers back to East Carson Street. We're also seeing encouraging movement in one of the district's most important indicators. When this work began, commercial vacancy was approximately 23%. Today it is approximately 16%. That's a seven point swing in just 18 months. no single person or program is responsible for a change like that it takes property owners investing in their buildings it takes businesses investing in their operations it takes the city providing services and resources and it takes existing community organizations working throughout the south side What these 18 months have demonstrated is the role that a dedicated district management can play in connecting those efforts and maintaining a consistent focus on the economic health of the commercial district. The phrase we've often said is that this is someone who wakes up every day and thinks about what problems the district has and puts boots on the ground to fix those problems. The NIDMA would be a permanent structure around that work, and that structure is important. It would be led by the building owners and business owners who are themselves the most invested in the success of the district. They would establish district priorities, oversee the organization, and determine how those district resources are put to work. So this is not about one person or one position. It's about whether East Carson Street has a sustainable, locally-led structure with the capacity to manage the district over the long term. Put another way, this is about making sure East Carson Street is set up to compete to be the most vibrant and the most profitable place for your business to succeed.

At the first hearing, I spoke about improvement districts as a proven model, how the assessment works, and why the health of East Carson Street matters beyond the boundaries of the Southside. Today, I want to focus on why this kind of district partner matters to the city as a whole. Strong neighborhood business districts are not just about individual storefronts. They support small businesses, jobs, private investment, property values, and the tax base that helps support public services across the city of Pittsburgh. When a corridor like East Carson Street is active, welcoming, and well-managed, that benefits the property owners and businesses in the district. But it also benefits residents, visitors, surrounding neighborhoods, and the city as a whole. The East Carson Street Improvement District adds three things that are hard to sustain without a dedicated structure. First, it supports economic impact and vibrancy. A healthier East Carson Street can help attract people, fill storefronts, support existing businesses, encourage private investment, and reinforce the city's long-term tax base. Second, it adds accountability and capacity. This is not a request to shift city resources from other neighborhoods. It is a locally controlled, privately funded capacity focused on this commercial quarter, including business support, storefront activation, marketing events, public space improvements, grant seeking, sponsorships, and day-to-day district management. Third, it improves coordination. Commercial corridors depend on coordination among property owners, businesses, residents, community organizations, city departments, and outside partners. A dedicated district organization gives everyone a clearer point of contact and a structure for following through over time. The city will continue to provide the core municipal services for which it is responsible. This improvement district does not replace that work. It reinforces it with local dollars, local control, and a dedicated capacity focused specifically on East Carson Street. The Southside already has property owners, businesses, community organizations, and volunteers doing much meaningful work. The question is whether that work has a durable structure behind it, one that can help sustain progress year after year. From the city's perspective, that is the value of the East Carson Street Improvement District. It helps Carson Street do more by reinforcing, not replacing, the city's work, and is consistent with a broader goal of Mayor O'Connor's administration, supporting strong business districts through dedicated capacity, local partnership, and sustained investment.

I would like to take a minute to explain the statutory process set forth by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania for the NID in plain English. So the NID does not set up a ballot election. It creates a written objection process for affected property owners. After today's hearing, affected owners have 45 days to file a written objection with the city clerk. To be counted for this formal statutory period, the objection must be in writing, it must be signed by the property owner, it must identify the property, and it must be filed during the objection period on or after September 2nd and before or on October 19th. Comments and questions before today have been important. They helped shape the plan and led to the clarifications and revisions we have discussed. But the formal objection period under the state statute begins after today's hearing. Unless the statutory objection threshold is met, council may adopt the district after the 45-day period closes. So as you can see, this plan has been shaped through years of conversations with property owners, business, community stakeholders, and the city. It's been an extensive process. We've had surveys, working groups, individual meetings with property owners and stakeholders, an advisory committee, a public hearing, an additional information session, and continued outreach and conversations throughout. Disagreement has certainly come up along the way, and that is part of the meaningful public process. The questions and concerns we've heard have helped us understand where we need to be clearer, where more information was needed, and where we should consider changes. We've responded. We've provided additional information, continued outreach, clarified questions, and as you've heard today, made some changes to the plan based on the feedback. I want to thank everyone who's taken time to participate, whether you've expressed support, raised concerns, asked questions, or simply just wanted to better understand what is being proposed. All those voices have been really important in shaping this process. The process continues today. Our purpose today was to update city council and the public on what has happened since the first hearing. What we've heard will be clarified and what has changed. With that, we'll look forward to hearing more public testimony today. Our next order of business will be testimony from registered speakers. We have a list of folks who have registered before us. Folks that are registered will be given three minutes. After that, we will take testimony from folks who did not register. You will also be given three minutes. I'm gonna call out, I'll try to call out two at a time so that you can prepare your remarks. The first speaker will be Peter Margatai, followed by Anna Campbell. Please give your name and neighborhood for the public record. And again, each registered speaker will have three minutes to address counsel.

All right. Thank you very much. My name is Peter Margatai, Southside. I am the president of the Southside Chamber of Commerce. And I love competition. Although most people probably don't think that about me. They think I'm pretty easygoing. Underneath it all, it gets pretty competitive. That comes out in two forms. I love to play squash, and I love the competition that comes with running my business. For any of you who don't know what squash is, meet me afterwards. I'll be happy to tell you all about it. When it comes to my business, I started my architecture practice by maxing out a $5,000 credit card. And many years later, after a lot of hard work, I'm very proud to be celebrating my 25th anniversary in business this year. I think my competitive spirit is one of the reasons I so much enjoy serving with like-minded business owners on the Southside Chamber of Commerce. We at the Chamber personally understand that to succeed in business, you have to do many things correctly. You've got to provide a quality service or product. You have to deliver it in a thoughtful and consistent manner. And you have to differentiate yourself through healthy competition. As it turns out, the same rules apply to a successful business community. And exactly like a business, you cannot achieve any of those goals without consistent, reliable funds. However, when you look at the funding part of the equation for the South Side, our competition is eating our lunch. Just look at the numbers. East Liberty Development Incorporated, annual budget, $1.4 million. Lawrenceville Development Corporation, annual budget $1.5 million. Northside Community Development Fund, annual budget $950,000. Bloomfield Garfield Corporation, annual budget $1.7 million. Oakland Bid, $1.2 million. Southside, annual budget for promotions, improvements, incentives, recruiting, $0.00. Let me tell you something. Since COVID, the Southside community has been doing a lot of soul searching. We figured out who we are, what we stand for. And it's not just the Chamber of Commerce either, but rather the other sister community organizations as well. We managed to really dial in our focus on a clear vision for the Southside. The only thing missing really at this point is consistent funding. This legislation will provide exactly that. We can't compete by blaming politicians, bemoaning the current state of society, wringing our hands and gnashing our collective teeth. The time for those things is over. It's game time. The Southside Chamber of Commerce urges the support of the East Carson Street Improvement District so the Southside can demonstrate to you and to the rest of the city what real competition looks like. Thank you.

thank you our next speaker is anna campbell followed by michelle margatai good afternoon my name is anna campbell i own two properties on east carson street and i'm in favor of the nimma Over the past month, I've had the opportunity to sit down with both supporters and opponents of the NIPMA. Surprisingly, I have genuinely enjoyed every one of those conversations. It has become clear to me that we have much more in common than we disagree about. We want a safe Southside. We want a more beautiful Southside. We want a district that attracts lawful customers back to our streets. We want fewer vacancies and we want to fill those vacancies with quality businesses. We want our legacy businesses to stay and to thrive. And most importantly, we overwhelmingly agree on one thing, something needs to be done. If the NIDMA passes, we will all play a part in funding an organization whose sole focus is dedicated to improving the South Side. If the NIDMA fails, we lose that. We lose the shop, sip, and stroll market that so many of us enjoyed this past weekend. That was done through the business district manager with a fraction of the funds that the NIDMA would provide. We won't have to argue anymore about the number of vacancies on the street because we will be able to clearly see them with blight and brown paper instead of art and effort to fill them. I understand that no one wants an assessment. I understand wanting to know exactly where the money is going and whether it will actually make a difference. But I also believe that the cost of doing nothing is the greater risk. This is an investment worth making. Let's continue the progress we've already started and improve upon it aggressively. If you can, let's give the NIDMA a chance and see what we can accomplish together. Thank you.

Thank you. Next speaker is Michelle Margatai, followed by Ken Eschenbach.

Hi, my name is Michelle Margatai. I am a resident and commercial property owner. We're not in the NIDMA area, but we will be contributing to it because we are so firmly supportive of this legislation. What is community? A group of people who share a common geographic location, identity, values, interests, and who interact and support one another. Southside is often referred to as a community, but the experience working on this legislation has shown me once again that Southside is made up of many communities. Here are just a few. There's the community that wants Southside to return to the good old days, streets busy, storefronts filled, neighbors sitting together on their stoops, but wants someone else to do the work. There's the community that owns businesses here, determined to make their living and employ others. There's the community that lives here, renting, owning, or on the streets, living their lives, some just trying to get by. There's the community that owns commercial property here, with some making investments and volunteering their time. Others who have moved away and just coming down to collect their rent checks, no longer caring about the business district. Their storefronts sitting empty, asking rents too high to compete, but all still getting that good old tax write off. There is the community that criticizes, complaining to everyone and anyone in mainstream or social medias or just to their neighbors along the street. Those who lie and spread misinformation, those who don't offer ideas or at least not ideas that are realistic given the city's financial constraints or the laws that must be followed when dealing with nuisance bars and bad actors. And finally, there is the community of people who live and work here who are trying. after volunteering thousands of hours each year to work on soup contests, house tours, neighbor nights, marathon welcome tents, red ribbon cuttings, farmer markets, yard sales, community gardens, and litter pickups, and so much more. As one of those volunteers, I will tell you, I am tired. I do not get paid for this. I have a life. support this legislation because i believe that it will give us an opportunity to bring members from these communities even the critics to the table so that we can work together the elected board of directors will have the financial resources to hire and direct the staff that will work towards the community's goals improving our failing business district competing for foot traffic with other neighborhoods increasing our property values and keeping our streets safe ultimately creating one community a vibrant and welcoming south side thank you

Thank you, Michelle. Next speaker is Ken Aschenbach, followed by John DeMauro.

My name is Ken Aschenbach. I've lived in the Southside for several years, and I fully support establishing the proposed NIDMA. Now, we've all heard some people compare the NIDMA to a tax, or a money grab, or a redundant fee for services governments should already be providing. That's just disinformation, and it's designed, and it's an attempt to distract us all from focusing on doing what it takes to revitalize the Carson Street corridor. We all know NIDMAs, in truth, are vehicles for investing in areas and interests shared by all its members. Note I use the term investment because that's what the annual assessment will be. An ongoing assessment in the Carson Street corridor directly and in the south side generally that will drive returns by increasing occupancy and revenue and in turn boosting property values. I note this because recently I was faced with the same decision. I currently serve as HOA President for my community. Earlier this year, I spearheaded a 38% increase in annual dues for all its residents, including myself. I did this because the community, like Carson Street, will require an ongoing investment if our homes are to continue to increase in value. I could have done nothing and pushed the issue into the future and let it be somebody else's problem. I could have sold my house and turned my back on my community. I chose neither because I know a good investment when I see one. Carson Street Corridor is a good investment. Let's not ignore it and hope everything just works out. Let's not turn our backs on it. Instead, let's unlock its potential. Thank you.

Thank you. Next speaker is John DeMauro, followed by, please bear with me here, Dimo Kefalogiannis. You're next.

Thank you. John DeMauro, 1721 Sydney Street in the South Side. I'm also a property owner. I own nine buildings on East Carson Street. And I'd like to thank everyone for the opportunity to speak today. When I was here previously, I talked about why East Carson Street needs a management district. Today, I want to focus on the work that we've done to get here and why the time to move forward is now. This has been over an 18-month process. We've met with property owners, business owners, residents, stakeholders. We've held community meetings. We formed an advisory committee and conducted two district-wide surveys. The results of those surveys were clear. 94% of respondents said they would financially contribute to a managed district on East Carson Street. That doesn't mean everyone agreed on every detail, but there was overwhelming consensus on a larger issue. Something needs to be done and East Carson Street needs to be actively managed. East Carson Street has had organizations working on these issues before. What's been missing for the past 20 years is one organization with the responsibility, resources, and accountability to manage the district consistently. No city department can make East Carson Street its only priority. This organization can. And we've already started to prove what that can look like. With limited resources, we've organized programming, supported businesses and building owners, made public space improvements. During that same period, commercial vacancy has fallen from 23% to under 17%, a reduction in more than a quarter. That's measurable progress without a permanent management structure. Imagine what consistent management, dedicated resources, and accountability can accomplish. This is not another layer of city government. It's a locally controlled investment funded by property owners in a district and governed by the people with the most at stake. The people paying for it will be the people governing it, measuring the results, and holding it accountable. We've had 18 months doing the due diligence, we've surveyed the district twice, we've built consensus, tested the concept, and demonstrated measurable progress. The groundwork has been laid, the support is there, the proof of concept is there. Now is the time to create a structure that can make this permanent. East Carson Street does not need another temporary solution. It needs consistent management, accountability, and a plan for the future. The time to move forward is now. Thank you.

Thank you. Next speaker is Demo, followed by Lou Crook.

Hi, my name is Demosthenes Kefalianus, Polish name. I have a question that I would like to have answered. Are the domiciles, the people who live in the houses, immune for this tax? Are they having to pay for this tax or what?

So we can talk to you afterwards, but we're not having a back and forth during the public hearing.

OK. I think I could get behind something like this, but this is being handled the wrong way. If you're not going to bring everybody in to carry the load, it's not going to work. It might work now. It might work next year. But it's not going to work. Look. I have two plots on 28th Street, and I'm being taxed already, more than I should be. If you put a NID through, my taxes are going to be doubled. I'm just one guy. I'm sure there are other guys like me around here. But this is not going to work. If you're not going to bring everybody into this, forget it. It'll go, and then it's going to crash. Because people aren't going to be able to pay for this stuff. Is that it? Do I stand here and look pretty? Okay, guys, that's enough. You're going to fail.

Thank you. Next speaker is Lou Kroc followed by Jimmy Hoffman.

Hey, good afternoon, everyone. Lou Kroc. I own a small law practice in the South Side and I want to be positive here for a minute. Look, you're all here today. You're all in this room today because you all care about the South Side. And I think that's fantastic. I think it's wonderful that so many of you could take time out of your day to be here today to talk about this, to think through this process. And that's what this is. That's why this is a good positive plan. This is an opportunity to continue this conversation and to continue it with the resources to do something to improve our neighborhood. I've sat on the board of the Southside Chamber for more than ten years now. We have a diverse large and very interesting business district. And it simply can't be run by volunteers. It can't be a volunteer job to run this district, to figure out what the day to day looks like, and to make it a success. And Susan has been so helpful in making us more successful over the last year. And that's what this is an opportunity for. And I want to point out just one last item, that my office is right off of 12th Street, and I'm technically not included in the business district that's being assessed. But I will be, and I thought about this with talking with Mr. Kupka, I will be volunteering to pay to do this. Because I think this is great, I think it's what our community needs. And I want to thank everyone for the time to talk and for being here today to show your support and show that you care about this neighborhood. Thank you.

Thank you. Next speaker is Jimmy Hoffman, followed by Richard Kopka.

Good afternoon. My name is Jimmy Hoffman. I'm a partner at Mario's Southside Saloon. Mario's was founded in 1982 and my partners and I have owned the establishment since 2007. For nearly 20 years, I've had a front row seat to the changes of East Carson Street. I've seen the years when the district was thriving and nearly every business was successful. Watched us fight our way through COVID and now, unfortunately, I'm watching many businesses struggle. Throughout the years, I've been involved in numerous volunteer groups with bar owners, business owners, property owners, residents, all trying to improve the Southside. The passion has always been there. But inevitably, those groups lose momentum. We all have businesses to run. We all have families, responsibilities, life takes over. That's why I believe in the Neighborhood Improvement District is so important. We need someone whose sole purpose is to wake up every morning thinking about how to make East Carson Street better. Someone responsible for working with businesses and the city, improving its cleanliness, safety, promoting the district, helping fill vacant storefronts, and most importantly, make sure our ideas actually turn into action. I understand some people look at NEDMA assessment as another tax. I understand the concern, but I urge you to look at it differently. Think of it almost like an HOA of your neighborhood. I mean, you invest in your neighborhood and the surrounding homes because the community directly impacts the value of your property. This is no different. For Mario's, our assessment would be roughly $150 a month. For $150 a month, if we can help create dedicated leadership focused on improving this neighborhood every single day, I believe that's completely fair. I consider it an investment in our business, our property, and East Carson Street. We also have to recognize that we're competing with other districts throughout Pittsburgh. Look at Butler Street in Lawrenceville. Look at the continued investments on the North Shore. These areas are not standing still, neither can we. Thanks.

Next speaker is Richard Kopka, followed by Dan Friedson.

I'm Chupka from Southside. I'm inside the NID footprint. Everybody that speaks should say if they're in or out of the NID so that you don't tax somebody. You don't want someone to be taxed and you're not included in it. You guys had 18 months, as DeMauro said, to plan this. to use the councilman's office to plan this, to use the resources of Pittsburgh to plan this, and we get 45 days to defend. That's not right. And your vacancy numbers are way off. Please provide the vacancy numbers, Charlene, and tomorrow. As to funding, accountability, and duplication of costs, the same individuals who developed and supported the Southside Fest, a program that cost approximately $500,000, resulted in repeated street closures, created significant disruptions on Southside residents and businesses, and are now proposing another $500,000 tax on the property owners and businesses along East Carson Street for public infrastructure and marketing. This raises serious questions about fiscal responsibility, accountability, duplication of funding. Residents and businesses already pay local taxes and it's supplemented by the parking enhancement tax fee that they collect for $300,000 a year. Before imposing another financial burden on the community, city officials should provide a clear accounting of existing revenues, demonstrate why current funding is insufficient, and explain precisely what additional benefits taxpayers will receive from an additional $500,000. leadership performance and measurable results. Susan Anderson, Allison Harden, Jocelyn Fitzgibbons have each held leadership roles focused on improving, revitalizing East Carson Street, with Anderson serving approximately two years, Harden approximately 10 years, Fitzgibbons about seven years as URA Main Street Manager, with each position carrying significant public responsibility and compensation, reportedly 100,000 each per person. If these efforts have not produced the meaningful improvements that the three have been unable to accomplish over the last several years, before taxpayers and businesses are asked to fund another position or initiative, there should be clear goals, measurable benchmarks, accountability, evidence that a new manager will deliver results that previous leadership hasn't. I'm done with my time here. Thank you. I'm totally against this money grab.

Thank you. The next speaker is Dan Friedson, followed by Don Berman.

Hey. Good afternoon, everybody. Thank you all for being here. It's good to see you, Councilman Sharlin. I have no doubt that Councilman Sharlin wakes up every morning thinking about the Southside Business District and its entire staff. That said, I'm here today representing Linda Gable and Richard Chupka. My name is Daniel Friedson. I'm an attorney joining the Stoner Law Practice down the street here next week. First and foremost, I'm just here to present my client's positions. And the first position that they have is this should be a meeting about public safety, and that's it. They feel like this is tone deaf to what the actual needs are of the district, which is regular police patrols, dedicated public safety. The second thing that I think is very important to recognize is that The Neighborhood Improvement District law, which is a state law, allows the management association to levy a tax. It's what it says in the law. It's a tax. It doesn't say you can levy an investment. It doesn't say you levy an association fee. It says you levy a tax. So it's important to know that once that organization is responsible for levying a tax and collecting that tax, they are no longer eligible for grants. If you collect taxes, you don't get grants. Check it out with the foundation community. It's a problem the Oakland Business Improvement District has had repeatedly. Those other areas that were mentioned that are thriving don't have NIDS. What they do have, though, is another tool, because a tax should be a tool of last resort. And here, we haven't seen the other tools yet. We've just seen, let's start with the tax. There is a thing, though, called a rational nexus. which is required under this state law, where the government interest has to have some kind of rational nexus to the proposed tax. And in this case, what has been stated is that the purpose of this tax is to do marketing for a different kind of customer to come down to the south side, which is not really a governmental interest. And so when we get to the sticks portion of this journey, we'll be introducing that. But let's start with carrots, because we need to get this Democratic mule moving. You could do a LERTA. which is a tax abatement, which would do the exact same thing as your NID and give these people a tax break instead of letting another tax against them. You could do the alert for full-time jobs and for improvements to the property. That could include security cameras, lighting, increased sidewalks, full-time public safety personnel, full-time public ambassadors, or even Ms. Anderson could be employed by one of the organizations to do what it is that she's doing. and they would get a tax break for employing her, rather than levying the tax to everybody else on the street. The individual property owners could take this problem into their own hands and be getting a tax break, because as we all know, taxes just went up 20%, and the court has ordered the county to raise taxes again. So to introduce a voluntary tax right now is nothing short of tone deaf.

Thank you. Next speaker is Dawn Berman, followed by Amanda Bundy.

Hi, everybody. My name is Don Berman. I'm president of Southside Pan. I'm a resident and a property owner. When the steel industry collapsed, the Southside Local Development Company helped lead this neighborhood's comeback. The Southside became the model to show what success was in district management and what it could accomplish. That organization closed in 2012, and nearly 14 years without a permanent district manager, we have also learned what happens when nobody is consistently responsible for protecting and strengthening the business district. supporting the nidba is in the financial interest interest of every property and business owner let's just do a little bit of math by way of example the pittsburgh downtown partnership reported 23.5 million in revenue last year property owner assessments were less than 15 one five percent of that total that is what a management organization does it takes seed money from property owners and multiplies it through grants, sponsorships, events, corporate support, and other investment. That money comes back into the district, making it cleaner, safer, more vibrant, and much more attractive to investment by quality businesses and developers. This makes all our properties, your property, more valuable. That is not merely a cost, it's an investment with leverage. Also, I recently received one of these fraudulent NIDMA letters. It has a nice little gold thank you stamp on the back. Maybe that could be dusted for prints. I don't know. We'll find out. This was filled with misinformation and it's disguised as coming from a pro-NIDMA organization and designed to frighten people who would not even be assessed. Well, every month, 80 to 100 people come to Southside CAN meetings. They put their names behind their work that they're doing. They devote their time to improving safety, cleaning, cleanliness and beautification of the neighborhood, supporting businesses and creating community events like the Farmers Market. The Southside Community Council and the Chamber of Commerce are indispensable partners organizing, advocating, supporting residents and businesses and working every day to strengthen the community. Together, hundreds of people are collaborating to make a real positive difference on the South Side. This anonymous people or these people behind this flyer hid behind a fake organization and used their time to spread fear and misinformation. The contrast tells you everything you need to know. Also, let me address the insinuation that people like me are asking for others to contribute while not contributing nothing themselves. I may not receive a NIDMA assessment, but I and many, many others contribute thousands of hours of unpaid work to make this community better. At any reasonable value, that contribution far exceeds what any private property owner may be asked to pay. Our contribution may not arrive in a check, but it is real, substantial, and invested directly into the Southside. We have standing to make these comments.

Thank you. Next speaker is Amanda Bundy, followed by Lynn Gable.

Hello everybody, my name is Amanda Bundy and I apologize for my appearance. I just came from work so I have had the privilege of owning a business in the South Side and owning a home and raising my son. So I have a lot invested in this neighborhood and I really think since the pandemic that we have really. had the opportunity to see what happens to a neighborhood when it's not uplifted by the building owners, by the business owners, you know, everybody coming together. I feel like the neighborhood works really hard at trying to combat our issues that we have, but I really believe that this program will help give the funding that we need to keep supporting our property values, our businesses, and our community. And I think that we need to work together and I think we need to come together and try everything that we can, and I think this is a great opportunity. Thank you.

Thank you. Next speaker is Lynn Gable, followed by Dr. Rudiak.

All right. Good afternoon. My name is Lynn Gable. I was born and raised on the south side, property owner at 1509 East Carson Street. I'm here today to voice my strong opposition to the proposed NID tax. A quick question is simple. Why should the property owners and the businesses be asked to pay even more in taxes when our property values continue to decline, the vacancy rates are rising, and the leased commercial spaces are becoming increasingly difficult to rent. For over the six years now, the business community and the residents have been yelling about the violence and homelessness impacting our streets day and night, and you have not addressed the core issue. You have not been transparent. You have had your secret meetings and group committees that make decisions with no results. You say one thing about the festival and you do another. So now that the things have gotten worse with the daytime and nighttime economy, you want the good businesses owners and building owners and select the residents to pitch in for your failure. Southside can sell itself. The Southside can't sell itself. Okay? Mr. Charlin, you need to focus all your effort involving the masses like Mr. Bruce Krause had mentioned six years ago at the first meeting. Mr. Krause was very good at ridding past nuisance bars back in the 2000s. Please ask him how he did it. At past meetings, these committees would mention how nuisance bars would be taxed with fees because of their bad behavior, but that didn't happen. This is another failed idea, I don't know. The nuisance bars should be held liable for the decay of the Southside, not the good building owners, not the businesses and selected residents that want to live in peace. But now we as a community are taking the burden of the immediate inaction from the last six years. Quit breaking bread with some of these destructive businesses. There has to be a standard conduct of business to operate on Carson Street. This should have never been tolerated for all these years. There also appears to be questions about whether the NIDFE is applied fairly and consistently across the board. Property owners need to know that everyone is being treated equally and fairly with no special arrangements or exceptions. And frankly, it looks like some property owners are receiving what I would call a friends and family discount. The perception alone should not be enough to demand greater transparency and accountability moving forward. Let me give you some examples. Right now we have 2912 East Carson Street, which is the old Sokol building. It was lowered down from, their assessment was lowered down from $4,348 to $824. Looks like the Carson Towers apartment was lowered down from $6,000. Ms. Anderson, would you like to tell us the new tax price that they got? Also, I see a couple other things here where copies on Carson. I know she's progressing and aggressive for the advocate for that. Why was she exempt? And one more thing, a born and raised lady, eight years old. She lives at 0 South 16th Street. She was assessed on a small vacant lot. Thank you. She inherited through her family. She parks her car there. Time has expired. $684.

Your time has expired.

But I'm not done. You had 20 years to fix things and you didn't.

Your time has expired. Next speaker is Dr. Rudiak followed by Councilman Bada.

My name is Barbara Rudiak. I'm a resident who lives at 1908 Jane Street, and I'm past president of the Southside Community Council. Southside showed its strength this past weekend during the shop, sip, and stroll market, thanks to joint efforts by the Southside Community Council, Southside CAN, the Southside Community Council, and Susan Anderson. Conspicuously absent, however, was the newly formed Southside NID Expansion Committee. Despite borrowing high-profile slogans about making Southside great, the group has offered no actual plan for the neighborhood. Instead, they've relied on tactics designed to mislead residents. Following the July public hearing, flyers circulated with false claims about tax exemptions, ignoring how vital residents' support is to East Carson Street businesses. By August, residents, myself included, received letters containing outright falsehoods about residential NIDMA fees exceeding $100 per month. A great deal of money and effort went into those mailings. That energy would be better spent offering real solutions. If the opposition is serious about improving our community, they should bring a concrete plan to the next neighbor night on Tuesday, September 15th at 6 o'clock so the neighborhood can hold a transparent, productive dialogue. Thank you.

Thank you. Next speaker is Councilman Bada, followed by Dan McSwiggin.

everyone i'm councilman jordan bada i represent allegheny county council district 13 which includes a significant portion of east carson street and the surrounding south side communities and first off i want to say susan anderson has done a tremendous job for east carson street i think that she's helped open more than 35 businesses almost 40 businesses in the past year which is tremendous and just a point of clarification we do have several nids across the city one of which you're currently in downtown which Last time I checked, the Pittsburgh Downtown Partnership was able to open up Market Square and Arts Landing in the past year, which you're welcome, as well as Oakland, which has OBID. But I just wanted to walk next door today to speak in support of the East Carson Street Neighborhood Improvement District. And to speak on some of my qualifications for this, I am the Executive Director of the LGBTQ Chamber of Commerce in Southwestern PA, as well as the Chair of Economic Development for Allegheny County Council. East Carson Street is one of the most important commercial corridors in our region. It has incredible strengths, historic buildings, independent businesses, restaurants, nightlife, neighborhood institutions, and a level of foot traffic that many business districts would envy. But anyone who represents this area knows that a successful commercial corridor does not maintain itself. Streetscape improvements matter. Community events matter. Cleanliness matters. Safety matters. Marketing matters. Business recruitment matters. And all of these things are things that individual business owners cannot solve on their own. A neighborhood improvement district gives the people who are most invested in the corridor a way to pool resources to make sustained, coordinated investments in the future of East Carson Street. And because I represent much of this corridor at the county level, I see the broader impact of those investments. When East Carson Street succeeds, it doesn't just benefit one block or one neighborhood. It supports jobs, local businesses, tourism, neighborhood stability, and the overall economic health of the region. A coordinated approach doesn't just help one business. It helps all businesses as well as the broader community. I also appreciate that this proposal is structured around a frontage-based assessment rather than an assessed property value. That gives property owners much more predictability and means that the NIT itself is not automatically tied to future changes in county property assessments, which, yikes, we'll get back to you on that one. At the same time, I do think that any special assessment has to come with accountability. Property owners should know exactly what they're paying. They should know who is managing their money. They should know what the goals are, and they should be able to see measurable results. If we're asking businesses and property owners to invest more in East Carson, then they deserve transparency and a clear return on that investment. I believe that this NID fundamentally addresses those concerns by creating transparent, locally-driven structure that gives property owners a direct stake in how the corridor is improved and ensures that the resources raised are reinvested back into East Carson Street. And as the old adage goes, if you want to go fast... uh go alone if you want to go far go together for those reasons i support the creation of the east carson street neighborhood improvement district and i hope council will move forward thank you thank you councilman uh next speaker is dan mcsuegan followed by dean costas just a clarification i live in bloomfield sorry excuse me i'm sorry there are a lot of comments coming from the other side and it's very distracting john could you sit over there

Our sergeant at arms will sit over there. Thank you, John. Next speaker is Dan McSwiggan, followed by Dean Costas.

Good afternoon. My name is Dan McSwiggan. My wife and I own 1701 East Carson Street, where our restaurant is, Camboda Can Kitchen. We open at night, five nights a week. We've lived and worked in that building since 2006. Most of the businesses on Carson Street are struggling, and it's been that way for several years, and it's getting worse. We just lost churn down the street three weeks ago, and that doesn't sell alcohol or anything. If this group of people who think we need a NID have such a good idea, why were we all not given the opportunity to vote for it? A majority would be a lot more But we weren't given that opportunity. This looks like an underhanded grab by certain ones to get money that, frankly, I don't think they're working for. We work for our money. We work very hard for our money. The big thing that's lacking here is we're not dealing with the problem. The problem is the public's perception of public safety and lack of it on East Carson Street. Two years ago on June 4th, we had 15 police officers directly lined up across the street from our restaurant. At 3 in the morning, they were given the order to disperse. They all left. Couldn't have left one or two across the street to at least show a police presence. No, they were all told to leave. One hour later, eight masked thugs showed up and shot our place up. Five gallon buckets of glass shards and my friend got hit in his right femoral artery. He lost about a pint of blood on our floor. Thankfully, he had the presence of mind to remove his belt and tie it around his thigh as a tourniquet. That's the only reason he lived. But nevertheless, we don't sell alcohol. We've never sold alcohol. We sell food. Delicious, fresh cooked food. We were shot up. Eight of those thugs did that, and they've never been caught, despite there being four cameras on each of the corners at our intersection. Come on now. And this is supposed to be a band-aid for that? Again, we need more police officers, and we need more consistent patrols of those police officers. At night, during the day, all the time. You know, you change your shifts for them. Okay, they're not overworked. That's the way to do it. This NID thing is just money thrown away and wasted. And the fact that we're not given a chance to vote for it is just wrong. It's undemocratic. It's taxation without representation.

thank you the next speaker is dean costas followed by claire drabo and i was just given guidance from our sergeant at arms here this is your warning uh we don't want if anyone does speak uh or harasses people as they're coming to speak or walking away you will be removed say that again if anyone's uh harasses anyone as they come to speak or walk away they will be removed this is the warning

I didn't hear what you said, Stu. I'm hard to hear.

If anyone harasses anyone who's coming to speak or as they're walking away, they will be removed.

How much time is left when the yellow light goes on?

Three minutes when you announce your... What about when the yellow light comes on?

That's one.

One? One minute left when the yellow light comes on. Thank you. Okay, ready?

I'm a former property owner, business owner in historic Southside. I do have a vested interest in the business in the Southside. I was there in the glory years, and all the businesses built up the Southside. We had the spectacular street spectacular down there that the SSLDC, another great nonprofit organization, stopped because they weren't making money. As soon as they quit doing that, everything started going downhill. Bruce Krauss, he's a, Sharman's proposing this and this was his baby 10 years ago. He and Don Carlson. This is a joke. This is like deja vu again. You don't let us vote. Who made up this voting system? Isn't this still America? Everybody votes. If you don't vote, it's a yes vote. What kind of garbage is that? That's garbage. And all these people in these groups, they're taking down 100K. That's like it's rainwater. 100K, hey, give them 100K, give them 100K. They are a failure, and they keep on getting 100K. Well, let's promote them, and maybe they can get 120K when we start something new. Why doesn't the city do their finances properly? Then they don't have to come up with these sham things. It's just absurd. Why doesn't city council knock four of their council seats off and take that money and then help the South Side? I mean, it's common sense. If you're in business, if you don't make money, you're not making money, you cut costs. You don't add to them. Oh, yeah, let's put another tax on me. Yeah, that's a genius idea. Have any of you studied economics? I don't think so because the way you run it, it's a facade. It is a facade and it's disgraceful. And you people should be disgraced that you're trying to shove this down hardworking people. And it's not right. And this is still America the last time I looked. And a vote is a vote, not this not God. You didn't vote, so it's a yes vote. What genius figured that one out? So Charlene Patton proposed this for his mentor, Bruce, and Don Carlson. Well, it's such a shame. It's a shame that you're even doing this and thinking about it. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Thank you. Next speaker is Claire Drobot, followed by Jocelyn Garcia. Claire, I feel like I'm saying your last name wrong.

It's Drobot. It's Drobot with a D in front of it. Thank you. Thank you. I'll accept any iteration. Good afternoon, members of the council and fellow attendees. As we said, my name is Claire Drobot, and I currently serve as the Artistic Director of City Theatre Company, where I've been employed for 11 years, and I'm speaking today on behalf of our staff and board. I am here in support of the East Carson Street Improvement District, or NIDMA. As our Managing Director, James McNeil, shared at a previous hearing, we believe this proposal is a vital step in the continued development of the Southside, one that will benefit businesses, residents, and our own artists and audiences. City Theatre is about to begin its 52nd season of developing and producing contemporary plays, marking 35 years in our Southside home. Our five-building campus on the 1300 block of Bingham Street includes two theaters, a production center, and a rehearsal hall facility, which also houses our long-term tenant, Copies on Carson. The arts have long been central to Southside's identity, and study after study shows the economic impacts of arts organization. Each year, City Theatre draws over 30,000 patrons to the neighborhood, patrons who eat out at local restaurants and support businesses along Carson Street. We have a deep investment in this neighborhood and are committed to seeing it thrive. Groups like Southside Community Council, Southside CAN and the Southside Chamber of Commerce, as well as the Southside Hospitality Partnership, have done vital work in the neighborhood. But East Carson Street hasn't had a staff district management entity since 2012. As many speakers have mentioned today, the NIDMD would fill that gap with a dedicated professional organization focused on retail recruitment, streetscape improvements, marketing, event support, and boosting the brand and image of one of the longest Victorian main streets in the country. We've seen firsthand what that kind of dedicated work can accomplish through our collaborations with current business district manager Susan Anderson. From recruiting new businesses to launching projects like Art on Carson, Susan's work has been a force for growth and positivity in the neighborhood. We're very grateful for it, and the NIDMA will ensure that that growth continues. There's a great deal of discussion regarding the cost of the NIDMA, which is understandable. City Theatre is a non-profit and wouldn't be subject to a property assessment. However, we believe so strongly in the NIDMA's benefits that we're committed to contributing funding support and sharing in its annual cost. I urge my fellow property owners, residents, and elected officials to support this proposal. Thank you so much for your time and consideration.

Thank you, Claire. Next speaker is Jocelyn Garcia, followed by James Garvey.

My name is Jocelyn Garcia. I live and work in the South Side. My concern with this is that there's been talk of 18 months of discussion and yet the draft, there was a draft meeting July 8th and we're here September 2nd with 45 days to figure out if this is going to go through. We've had successful businesses on the south side that have closed not because there weren't enough flowers or things decorating the south side, they left because of security concerns, which this NID would not address because that's still under the municipal auspice of the city government. So primarily, I'd like to figure out If this goes through and property owners do not pay, will there be property liens put against their properties by the city for not paying something that they did not agree to? That's my question. Thank you.

Thank you. Next speaker is James Garvey, followed by Joshua D. Augustine.

Good afternoon, everyone. Allow me to introduce myself. I'm James Garvey, owner and operator of Garvey's Bar on the south side slopes, and also owner of two buildings on Carson Street. And as you know, my family's been in Southside for many generations, and if they were still here to see what we turned Southside into, they would not be thrilled at this mess we left. We were inherent in a good opportunity from our ancestors, and we took it for granted by enabling bad behavior, not willing to reinvest back into our neighborhood, which inevitably turned it into a bad time. Which, that's what we're dealing with today. And that's why we're here, to come up with a solution. But let's be honest, I'm sure all of us are sick and tired of the violence, the uncleansliness, and the decrease of our property value in the South Side. And overall, we're not gaining a positive impact. But we have a solution. As business owners, real estate investors, it's our responsibility to make our neighborhoods safe, thriving, and successful. How do we do that? We get together, we network, we invest back into our community, and with a little bit of cooperation, we can manage to get Southside back to the pinnacle of success in the city. Because if we keep doing what we're doing right now, we have no future. And we hand our kids a complete mess that they'll inherit. And I hope nobody wants that. I don't want that. So I'm asking you as landlords, business owners, are you going to do what it takes to get Southside back to the top where we could be more successful, more safer, and most importantly, more competitive to bring people back to the Southside? And I want you to look at yourself in the mirror when you go home and ask yourself this question. Am I ready to make that change? If the answer's no, I'd advise you sell your property or your business. Because let's be honest, who decides if our neighborhood's successful? It's us. We decide. Who decides if it's failing? Us. Who decides if it's gonna be better than North Shore, Lawrenceville, Oakland? Us. So we can't keep champion mediocrity and think that doing nothing, investing in something, is going to make it better, which it will not. So that's why I say, if we're all scared to throw money at something to make it better, would you work for free to make something better? I'd argue no. None of us will. Because that doesn't help nothing. So, I guess that's it.

Thanks, Jimmy. Joshua D. Augustine is our last registered speaker.

Good afternoon, everybody.

I'm Josh DeAugustine.

I oppose the East Carson Street Improvement District because it starts at the wrong end of the problem. In the first year budget, 31% of the money collected goes to program management and administration. 22% goes to branding and image development, and 19% goes to events and marketing. Meanwhile, only $15,000 out of roughly $500,000 goes to economic vitality and storefront activation. Three percent. If vacant storefronts and a weak daytime economy are some of Carson Street's biggest problems, what exactly are we administering, branding, and marketing if we are barely investing and filling the buildings themselves? The assessment is based on frontage, not revenue or profitability. Under the final plan, a low-margin grocery store like Aldi would pay about $600. 6,600 a year, while nightlife venues that arguably are the cause for the late-night crime problems that could be addressed by liquor enforcement, maybe making these clubs shut down an hour early until we figure something out, those clubs get to pay $2,200 and $1,400, respectively, versus a grocery store. That is a striking difference. The formula measures frontage, not a business's ability to pay. While the assessment is charged to property owners, the district's own website acknowledges that pass-throughs can happen. Meanwhile, what is actually preventing small businesses from opening here? Permitting, zoning, DOMI approvals, high rents, taxes, health department review. I personally know restaurant owners who have spent as long as 20 weeks paying rent and utilities while waiting for approval. Those are the barriers that we face for economic development. If we want more economic development, why are we only spending 3% on activating vacant spaces while we prop up in another administrative layer that our taxes should already be taken care of. We should already have improved street cleaning with the amount of taxes we pay. I can't even go and get a coffee from one of these businesses that are down here and park outside for 15 minutes without getting a parking ticket. It's insane. We're doing all the wrong things on the south side. This should be one of the hardest neighborhoods in the world to screw up. If we are raising 500K, I would rather see that go to grants, no interest loans, direct assistance that helps entrepreneurs overcome the barriers and fill the vacant storefronts, just like every city in the United States. I'd also like to question the emphasis on events. We already are receiving state grant money to create a secured, militarized zone that is only for nightlife, and you can see the footage of what that looks like on social media. Before creating what's essentially a commercial HOA that can collect 500K a year in mandatory assessments, we should demand clear accountability for who already is controlling all of this. Let's fix the barriers we already know about, fill the storefronts, and build a daytime economy, make it easier for ordinary people to open business here. 3% for economic vitality and storefront activation tells me this proposal has its priorities backwards. For that reason, I oppose it.

Having exhausted our list of registered speakers, we'll now take comments from unregistered speakers in the audience. Please provide your name and neighborhood for the public record. You will have three minutes to speak.

Hi, my name is Rebecca Kasovich. I own copies of Carson at 1315 East Carson Street. And I am here today doing this because I believe the NIDMA is the tool that I need to be here for 27 more years.

I want to start by saying something important.

The people who posed this plan cared just as much about East Carson Street as the people who support it. And to repeat the great Lou Krak, thank you for your passion. Thanks to everybody in this room for your passion. This disagreement is not about the goal. This disagreement is about the solution. I hear people say the city or the mayor's office should be doing more. I don't disagree with that. Our property owners and business owners should take more responsibility. I agree with that too. But the reality is that right now, those things aren't happening consistently enough. And at some point, we have to stop talking about who's going to do the work. And we have to create a structure that makes sure the work gets done. And that's what I see in the NIDMA. We have no shortage of ideas. We've got all the opinions. What we have is short of us is execution. We can't look to our tax dollars to fill the gaps. Because the tax dollars we pay now aren't ours to spend. They go into a large government system, and we have very little ability to ensure that they make them back to East Carson Street. We have tried waning, we've tried complaining, and we've tried relying on a system that has gotten us where we are today. I am asking you all to try something different. Not to replace city services, but to demand more from them. I believe we are all a passionate group of people, and we should have that opportunity to channel that passion into creating a structure that gives our neighborhood a fighting chance. If we keep doing what we've always done, we should expect the same results we've always gotten. And to be clear, a couple of points. The act is not the Councilman's and it doesn't belong to the committee. It was set by the state legislature. We're working with what they gave us. The budget that's proposed needs your feedback. The word tax appears in the Act seven times. That word refers to tax exempt properties and four mentions to taxes that the General Assembly found as insufficient to support neighborhood needs. The Act calls it an assessment. Thank you very much. I ask for your support today.

Thank you, Rebecca. Are there any further speakers? You've already spoke, sir.

You've already spoke. Can you provide the vacancy rates that you brought up before? Put that part of the record. Thank you.

Are there any further speakers? Seeing no further speakers, we'll move on to comments from members of council. Councilwoman Salnetro.

Well, I really want to say I hear you all. I appreciate, again, all the passion you have and the love you have for this neighborhood of Southside. We all do because it's a city treasure, and I recognize that. And I will continue to listen to the views here. Thank you.

Thank you. Councilman Conco, would you like to make comment? You don't have to.

I'm sorry, I wasn't able to sit in. I had another prior engagement. I had to be, but I've been following very closely, obviously, you know, Councilman Sharla and I sit next to each other, so we talk about it. But, you know, I'm just here to listen. I will watch over everybody's comments today. And, you know, ultimately, we'll have to determine, I guess, when and if this comes up for a vote. Is this going to come up for a vote soon? Do we know?

45 days from today.

Got it. Okay. Okay. So just to let you all know I'm paying attention to it because I'm going to have a vote on it. But sorry I couldn't attend the entire proceedings here today.

Thank you, Councilman. So I would like to take, and we've not been joined by any other members, correct? Okay. I would like to, I will keep my comments relatively short, but I do want to address a couple of things that we heard. Actually, first, and I apologize for not giving you guys a heads up on this. Mary or Susan, was there anything that you would like to address? Okay, so I just wanted to address a couple things that we heard here. Again, I think Rebecca summed it up well, but the statute is designed by Harrisburg. This is not something that is a city rule. It's not something that we designed in formulating the plan. The General Assembly has passed the Neighborhood Improvement District Act, and that's what governs our motions here. As you can tell, it is unusual for city council to hold two public hearings on legislation without taking an act between them. That's what's happened here. Again, we are governed by what the state tells us we have to do, and that's what we're doing. That is also how the... how you submit your opposition to the clerk that is also designated or defined in that state statute. So just want to be clear about that. It's not something that we designed, but it is the rules that we're following. I also heard in comments about how As an organization, we would not be able to, or this organization would not be able to receive grants. I think it's important to address that. The city does have two existing examples of this, the Oakland Business Improvement District and the Pittsburgh Downtown Partnership. Both those organizations not just receive grants, they receive a lot of grants. The Downtown Partnership roughly quadruples the size of its budget. through those grants, OBID about doubles its size in grants. That's what we would expect to build here on East Carson Street, an organization that is a vessel to receive that additional funding. There are comments about not receiving or not being able to do economic growth. That would largely come out of grant funding. It would make more sense that that is something that is funded through those grants as opposed to being funded through the assessment. So that might be why you see that in the budget, might be why you have a sticking point on that. Another point that I thought was important to bring up, and this is something I've heard from a local AM radio host as well as today, was that a LERDA might be something that would be more appropriate here. LERDA doesn't work that way. LERDA is an abatement that is built on, or is an abatement that is designed on the improvement in your property. If you put an addition on your property, you can get an abatement through the LERDA. And by the way, the LERDA already exists citywide. It's by right. We do approve LERDAs, you know, if that is something you want to do, if you meet certain criteria. depending on how many employees you employ, if you build housing, what the affordability standards are there. We already have ALERTA in the city. That doesn't even really apply to this situation. What we're looking for here is to create an organization that will benefit the district, be controlled by the district, and make the businesses in the district more profitable. The last thing I did want to mention before I get to some thank yous, someone said that there's been 18 months of discussion and that's just not true. There's been 18 months of programming this pilot program that was grant funded has existed for 18 months. But this has been a discussion that's been going on for years. It's something that, you know, I remember as my time as a staffer for Councilman Krause having community meetings discussing how do we bring in a business district manager? How do we make this business district grow up and how do we how do we evolve into a a real business district? I think one of the Great examples of a failure on the district is where we have two vape shops next to each other. That is what happens when you want the business district to perform organically and you're expecting good things to happen without any sort of work to actually bring in what will be successful here. So this is a discussion that's been going on for a really long time and I'm thankful that we're here at this point. I do want to give a couple of thank yous. I want to thank the Southside Community Council for their support and actually probably spearheading one of the initial versions of those conversations. The Southside Community Action Network, which this was certainly built out of in the Southside Chamber for recognizing the opportunity we have and really doing a lot of the boots on the ground work to get us to this point and for their support. This was a meeting, and I'm probably going to miss some people here, but from some of the residents, I very much remember talking with Katie and Jeff and Frank Vitale and Dr. Rudiak years ago, and I want to thank them for their support to be able to get to this point. I want to thank my staff in the clerk's office. We had to mail out thousands of envelopes and because they were so big, we had to hand stuff them. I want to thank them for their support. The Hillman Foundation, UPMC, First National Bank for their support here. None of this would have happened without edge on actually getting us the funding that was required. And the last person I really want to thank who's been very helpful in all of this is former Councilman Gene Riccardi, who actually was one of the people that founded this exact same program in Oakland. He has been really helpful in this whole process as we've been talking through what works and what doesn't work and what we'd like to do. I want to thank him for his guidance moving this forward. It's nice to have people like that in your corner. Anything else from members or any of our invited guests? Okay, so I guess we're going to call quits here. We're not taking comments from the audience, sir. Having exhausted the business of this public hearing, this meeting is now adjourned.