Planning Board - Regular Meeting

e e e I'm going to call to the town of Pittsburgh planning board regular meeting for Monday March 17th 2025 um we do have full attendance for a quorum um do I have a motion to either approve or modify tonight's agenda to approve the agenda right charity moves to approve do I have a second second second by James Buster um all in favor I I motion passes unanimously agenda approved um we move on to the minutes that should have been in your email do I have any corrections to the minutes I notic um Connie was not listed as

attending the meeting and I think she was in attendance is that true I do believe sorry sorry for which meeting there was actually two meetings on that listing for the minutes because it was um continued so was it the first date or the second um I was it both we both missed together but then I mean if we're gonna be accurate to Matt wasn't at the second part of the meeting it was at the first part so but He's listed as being present but there aren't um like separate minutes for the two parts of the meeting so I don't know how we want to handle the adance but there are two SE there are two sections of the minutes one date and then if you scroll down there is the continuation date I'm just see the one I think that was all I had there two attach I only saw one attachment double check yeah I just have one PDF um that's on the agenda and it's only showing one the doesn't have a header to it does it okay that may be part of the issue this is it what continues on 73 oh here it is okay I do see that okay so strike my comment about Matt that is accurate but Connie is not listed um she on either on either of the attendance yeah okay then with that can I get a motion to approve the minutes with the

stated uh correction to add Connie McAdams to the attendance moove moved by Mr Allen Wilson do I have a second second by Connie McAdams all all in favor say I I motion passes agenda is approved with the modification of adding miss Connie to the attendance um we will move to our public comment period we do have somebody signed up um we have a Ron Hatley if you would please uh come to the podium uh if you wouldn't mind stating your name and your address please uh good afternoon or excuse me good evening now good folks in the planning board my name is Ron Hatley I live at 24 Roy Hatley Road uh 27312 uh my purpose for speaking tonight is uh to address the small planning area I think that's one of the things that might be on your your agenda if you look at Nationwide in terms of small planning areas depends on whether or not you're Urban or if you're rural if you're rural I think the average is about 50 homes per that area so if we're talking about 50 homes and 50 5,000 Acres that's going to be a pretty good size chunk for 50 homes uh they won't be able to touch each other from from either side but uh having sat through numerous numerous hours with the several Mayors back uh in the elements meeting we discussed almost all aspects of the development considering both the town and the citizens and the developers

and how we might come to a happy marriage of that time I'm thinking that if we have a small area it should be a smaller area I know you have a lots of uh items on your plate in terms of how to weigh and to come to a a consensus of what is best for the citizens and for the the current developers and future developers so it is a a partnership that I hope that we can keep a symbiotic relationship with that we can move forward in terms of both of those the constituents and and the popes that are uh involved in that and we can come to a good uh resolution since I was in the elements session uh do any of you have a question of me of what we think what we thought during that period of time yes sir I'm not familiar with what the element session was and stuff can you tell me a little bit more about that in what period of time that was yes uh my in my 50 minutes I'll try 50 seconds I'll try tell you uh all aspects of the development were considered uh vegetation lighting uh roadways everything that you can imagine that was in a development we spent hours and hours and hours in terms of cons studying that doing what we thought was the best in terms of all people uh I'm sad to say that what was proposed in those elements have not always been met and uh that makes me sad yes sir so when was that preco okay I've had Co so I don't I don't know where I am now so yeah it was preco okay you know very well organized all aspects of development were considered but uh I'd like to thank you for your

time thank you Mr hyk I'll just to let you know the minutes have been fixed and Connie has been added to Second thank you reason why she wasn't added to the first part is she hadn't had her open office yet that happened on January 29 so technically she wasn't a part of the planning board yet because we were waiting for the county to approve understood thank you for the [Music] explanation um Mr Hatley was the only person we had signed up for public comment period so we'll move to Old business being none we will move to new business uh small area PL TR yeah good evening so uh bearing in mind that probably in the early part of the summer or potentially the middle of the summer you all are going to get your hands officially on the small area plan for the South Village of uh chattam Park I wanted to give you all sort of an overview of what we're actually looking at and what is involved in this particular uh process so um yeah there you go so I want to talk to you all about generally sort of a planning principle and try to break it down in a way that helps you understand there will be a a good period of time at the end of this for a few questions so definitely um start Lo loading your uh loading your weapon on that one but um most planned communities in the United States and most most defitely plan communities in North Carolina start with a master plan and the thing in front of you was the master plan essentially for chadam Park one of the things that you

learn in a master plan is sort of the full extent I do want to point out to you that uh it's a concept of the full development in a format that lacks specific detail and that's deliberate now small area plan is a detailed localized planning document that provides guidance for the future development and character of a specific area it's often a neighborhood or a section of town it offers a more specific Direction than a broader comprehensive plan and um so in small area plans and we are talking about in general but we're going to zero in on the one you all will be examining very soon the idea is to address the unique needs and opportunities of a specific area providing detailed strategies for land use resoning for transportation Economic Development housing Aesthetics and Service delivery so these plans usually include recommendations for the desired mix of land uses which as you all get our rezonings coming through or our conditional stuff coming through uh you're certainly seeing a fair amount of that you're going to get residential and building density and we're going to show you in just a minute how that works out in a small area plan you have design Aesthetics such as the building styles and the landscaping that's been chosen the location of the streets and the connectors infrastructure improvements such as sidewalks and utilities and then parks parking and open space but also parks in the case of uh chattam Park I do want to point out to you all that these things are conceptual chattam Park the next slide um actually showed up as being approved as a master planned Community just to let youall know at 8,000 AC it is the largest plan community on the eastern half of the United States if you start at the Mississippi River and you start

heading off to the east you'll discover this is the largest planned community in this part of the United States so 8,000 Acres sort of sets it apart the concept for the development anticipated a North Village which you all should be familiar with Now The Vineyards and Mosaic and the part that is getting ready to be uh story living by Disney which is what the north Villages largely become and then although there was other sections and if you all have been over there you've definitely seen it and then the South Village consists of almost 5,000 Acres now will will also point out to you all that South Village is again the largest small area plan of its sort in the United States and potentially even the world when you start thinking about great small area plans I'm going to point out to you all that Chicago in 1898 or thereabouts um a gentleman who's very prominent in planning actually put together their first really small large area plan for the actual Bay that is actually Chicago today it was Chicago then and uh Mr Burnham turned in his his designs and they were not received terribly well so he went to what would be the Chamber of Commerce it had a different name in Chicago but it was essentially the Chamber of Commerce and he got them three years before his death to put together the small area plan which is still the small area plan for the city of Chicago it's spent 23 years teaching that plan starting at school age children and on up to adults every Civic group and uh it it is world famous the only other really really large oh and I'm sorry and it was 660 Acres why am I telling you this because it was 660 Acres I want to point out that the island of Manila in the Phil Philippines after a very large bombing

um had to be re reorganized and replanned and and again about 700 acres and that's the island of Manila and the small area plan for the island of Manila in the Philippines is in place today and they're still working for the plant so a really well-designed plan can last for a very long time um okay so with this South Village that we're actually talking about this is not a very good map but it sort of get least gives you an idea of where we are and this is actually the um the roadways and and what is anticipated for there it includes an extension of chadam Parkway which is the one in red can't miss it it includes um anticipates extending Eubanks Road South to moner Pittsburgh Road by means of the blue sort of thing that trickles down at for a little while there it's Bill Thomas Road I believe it is and then uh it's largely defined by Hanks Chapel Road to Gum Springs Road and intersecting intersecting excuse me with moner Pittsburgh road so certainly if you know a little bit about the area what you're going to realize is you know this area but you don't know it to be chaden Park but now tonight you do is spans from us64 business to Jordan Lake and to it it encompasses some of the hall River so being clear that's what it is we got the next slide I want to show yall something because this is a little bit interesting or it's interesting to me pleas remember planning ner so quite interesting to me um this is a map of our town limits and our etj and this map is actually on our website for a whole different reason but I want to point out to y'all that the really dark blue area there that's I don't know what color that is I'm looking up at the TV and I have no idea what color that is but that blue area is the actual corporate limits of the town today and the purple area I think should surprise you all because you're going to see a couple of things you see uh Reeves

F and the area we're standing in right this minute these are our etj areas I do want to point out to you all that actually just about everything in the East Southeastern quadrant of this map is chadam Park and coincidentally so is the North Village that blue stuff up there uh is the North Village that became Asteria now want to point out here the South Village is entirely contained in our current etj and as each section is chosen for subdivision or development the land is annexed into the town's corporate limits so in a minute we're going to get into how long that's going to take and what all is involved can you you just repeat what you just said I want to make sure I heard that clearly which part that is that atj or that they Annex in as they build yes that one they Annex in as they build so if you look up at the top there at one time nearly none of that was included in the town but as each phase of the development if anybody was at the Y MCA this past week and was there for the ribbon cutting that area was annexed into town about a year ago so they Annex in as they develop while it's still sitting there undeveloped it is in the extr territorial area it's subject to our zoning jurisdiction it just isn't in the town's limits but as they build it each piece goes in okay we're doing it on the regular into the town or into the etj no into the town it's already in the etj every bit of their proposal is in the etj so as it gets developed as they develop things as they put things on it it comes into the town limits Randy quick question do we know going forward what sections are going to be annexed yes and I'm going to show you in just a few minutes all right just so excited we planning nerds I know well good I I'm glad to see I'm not the only one in the room so this is the largest small area plan in North Caroline I did make that clear that goes to the next slide and

thank you a bunch seriously this is very help um so it is arguably one of the largest small area plans in the state and this chart on here we're going to talk to you about it in a minute but small area plan sets development standards through carefully crafted charts and tables that Define the lot width building setbacks rear yards building separation maximum height of structures Etc and every one of those details is in this all right now these details which are part of the master plan they were not part of the master plan necessarily but they were reserve for specific area plant they're used when the land is subdivided or sites are planned in smaller increments so if you happen to be wondering through a section of the North Village even and you were wondering why the lots are this particular way or how many the setbacks are and all that every bit of that ends up on one of these and there's one of these for every single section of this this small area plan we're talking about all right we're going to go to the next slide and in a minute all will be revealed Alan's question answered as we move on there are seven phases proposed the seven phases are proposed for the period between 2028 and 2052 or as I like to call it my death well because I'll be nearing 100 years old at that time but let me just say that was for you but anyway um let me just say that uh I'll be quite old in 2052 and I honest ly we'll tell you I will not be in planning anymore uh or I'll be planning but it'll be from the nursing home so each segment uh has proposed uses that are fully described so over here to your left as you can barely see it you're going to see that phase um what appears to be 2A is 2028 through 2034 2B happens somewhere in the 2030 to 2036 and then it just goes down if you

want to see these a lot bigger you can because they're on the website and I was going to tell you where to go down downlo yes ma'am um is this when they will start building is this when they will begin clearing land no no clearing happens before building so these dates are when the building will start presumable and the clearing can start whenever no longer out than three years before the actual development and how about roads that goes in well ahead of buildings and what's the year I live we don't know I live on Bill Thomas we don't know that's the whole thing that's what about this game and so there are variables that could change it let's talk about 2007 2008 through 2012 at that point the world economy collapsed and I was in Land Development then too so we some well depending on where I worked sometimes we sat on the side and watched it happen I was also in a very high growth area that never experienced any downturn 789 right right through 12 we built like the place was on fire so it really depends but if there was a pause caused by a similar thing like say interest rates going to eight or more percent for an example you would have a pause um and roads are under okay we'll get the do or no okay no no so here's how that works here's how it works because it's such a great idea so what happens is a segment comes through they set up a scoping meeting with us for whatever it is they're doing and then we review what they turn in whatever it is then we have a pre-application meeting with our staff and with our technical Review Committee technical Review Committee are engineering staff the Fire Marshall um building inspectors you know people you'd assume would want to be their do is included early on well let's

talk about this while they're under construction the roads belong to the developer in exactly the same way that the roads in Allen's neighborhood belong to the developer until the town takes them into the town system or if a road is actually slated to become a do Road do has to do it now to answer your question because we were just getting ready to go there and it's really a cool thing to talk about once we get around to the actual submittal of the application what happens is if you're dividing land not just doing a site then the land subdivision comes to you all with a proposal or two about the roads where they're going what they kind of look like and we're going to get to a picture in just a minute that's going to show you how that part's set in motion but no road construction happens with the subdivision it happens with the construction drawing approval which is three months to a year after you all see the subdivision there's a period of time follow me follow me there's a period of time just your eyes went off for a second I was just like considering those numbers yes ma'am I'm with you yeah I just want to make sure I don't lose you because I feel like I have a real we're having a real we're having a thing so here's here's our thing we're having so so what happens next is the construction drawings get approved then the developer starts building at that point they they're clearing or have cleared they will begin to lay down the road beds do the grading the mass grading whatever it is they're going to do in that area There are rules about tree saving and all that sort of stuff let's just keep and then they put in storm water devices at the same time okay when they reach the point where the roads are in place where the lots are properly crowned to start receiving some sort of development great example of this is where am I Comet this is the

road so comet on the corner of um chattam Parkway and 64 East business where they just cut down all those trees okay that would be one of the steps in the development of a very large um tall building that is um Apartments that's going there three I don't know over 300 unit over 300 we're going to use the word over 300 I think 342 but I I'm going to get it wrong the point is you take the trees down first you grade the dirt with an approved plan from the county for grading and then you actually put in roads the hard surfaces any storm water devices that are going on the site help me out at any point you want to save me Cory got it but anyway at that point the roads go down it is it is the compacted it is the compacted material that is actually under the first lift of pavement or the first installation of pavement the pavement is put down at half the depth and then at that point when they're ready to start selling lots and they've got construction of the place where that's going to happen that's when they come back for a final plat because it's against the law in this state to sell a lot that has not got an approved plat they do it in phases so that they don't have to build the whole thing at one time they can build phases get them approved once you have the lots for sale chattam Park doesn't build houses Builders build houses so the people who they've hand selected as Builders come in purchase Lots from them from this inventory of whatever's available and that's when things start to go up but the things that go up have to match the chart we were just looking at so this is like dates or final plat we don't know about that this is a suggested timeline for

the phases of this these dates mean nothing got it largely order yeah have you ever been in a project or like something at work and they said oh we're going to have a building built it's going to be built by June 5th 2030 yeah and you're sitting around and it's 2025 and you don't see any funding for it and you're not sure when it's going to happen or there's a hiccup of funding and suddenly things start going really fast sometimes projects run ahead of schedule sometimes projects run behind schedule I'll be right with you okay so what I was just going to say is this is a proposed timeline and it assumes that this project or this this um small area plan gets approved in time for this actually start coincidentally 2028 is also in the time period where we begin to get a new sort of burst of water and sewer capacity from TR River um what year is that 2027 2028 okay and that again guys remember they have to actually construct the Force main which is actually in some of these pictures and and you can actually go look and see where it applies to their situation okay yes I'm sorry hit it um just uh Curious so what point do they get an annexed into the town oh the annexation happens around the subdivision time like when they put the first house in oh no it's it's already annexed by that okay it's already annexed by that part all of the entitlements yes yes yes division yes so if I wasn't talking over him and you you heard that basically by the time you actually build a house you're in the city limits because for one thing you're not eligible for utilities if you're not in the corporate limits we do not extend outside okay and actually we don't extend anymore anyway but the people who do extend don't do it outside let's Okay so over on the right let me just say

this is a chart that just basically there's a key over on the real plan and when you get to a chart that looks like this you're looking at both the color and the striping so I want to say this is not in this PowerPoint it's in the plan which I'm going to tell you how to go get it just a minute let's go to the next slide for just a second before we go on a because we're almost at the end of these slides which is fabulous all right so these are roadway sections and if you're Corey you've seen them before and if you're everybody else you maybe haven't but just to demystify what's going on here there is a tree planting area there's a planter strip under that area there's a person standing on a sidewalk which in many cases is either a walking path or it's a multi-use path depending on which one it is you have another grass strip between it then you have the two travel Lanes that're 12 feet apart a piece then you have a median here which appears to be about 20 fet that's also grassed or has something on it then you have two more Lanes this indicates to you this is a four lane road the another strip in this particular drawing I think they have a 10-ft multi-use path on both sides and this is up on chattam Parkway which is a DOT it's a four-lane street carbon gutter median divided highway with multi-use Trails 120 foot right away multiuse Trails located in accordance with figure 3.5 so when you're wondering is there going to be a d a sidewalk is there a multi-use path if you know the street and you know the plant and you know the section and you know what it's going to look like is going to look like that picture right there they have this set of pictures goes all the way down to alleys alleys Alys alleys like the alleys over in pal blazs it's like what what's happening who's pointing to you alley there's alley and then there's roads that are two lane there are like little neighborhood roads there considerably wider roads and these are

the divided highways I just pulled this out of a whole list of these there is no significance to me showing this to you except to tell you that with sidewalks in a lot of cases you have a 10- foot section on one side and then a 10- foot multi path on the other or a five foot on the other side is the median planted is it just grass are there trees just want to give youall a hint when you see a tree in the middle of the road like the CRP Myrtle in the bottom what that's supposed to do to you visually is make you slow down if I put barriers in the middle you know you can't fly because you don't particularly want to hit a tree and you particularly don't want to hit that go airborne and go visit your friends coming from the other direction so those things in the median are a traffic calming device it makes people drive slower I do want you also notice in this that you are at least 10 ft or more from the travel way which means you're not going to get run over and the streets that are proposed in the South Village do not have a bicycle lane like the vineyard the bicycle is happening up on the multi-use path which is way safer all right let's go to the absolute last one and that's when I'm going to open the floor to every question y'all have y'all are going to begin the review sometime this summer which is Charity that's my best version of I don't know when it's going to happen let's hope it's going to happen this summer starts out with the staff handing out hard copies which you all will be placing in these so if you dropped yours off last time you'll be picking one up you don't get a new one you get you know you get one but you get one because we gave you one last time so you're going to get your version not in a nice binder it's going to be three punched holes in it and a nice um bull clip that's says hey take this home and click it into your book it's also where you're going to be keeping your notes you get to read

over it you get to write all over it because it's your copy you can put notes on it anywhere you want to and um we're going to have I say one or two planning board meetings my suspicion is it will be considerably more than one or two planning board meetings before adoption the Board of Commissioners are going to review it they're going to comment they're also going to hold the public hearing or several and and if you want to head start um I don't think we set up for this but anyway if you go to our website if you go to the town's website and you go to the planning page pretty early on in the planning page you're going to see okay I'm sorry I'm I'm surprising people with stuff so I'm full of surprises tonight that's my job I'm entertaining I'm surprising says me but anyway when you get when we get the county the Towns County okay I'm sorry I forgot where I was when when you I've had Co too four times so anyway and the brain and the brain fog never let up okay when you go to our page and you go here and you hit government and you drop down to departments and choose planning all right right there it says chadam Park South Village small area plan click here for details do not click there but when please but when but when you click there you can download the whole plan which gives you a nice opportunity to look at an enormous PDF that has all the stuff that we're currently reviewing now right at this moment staff is reviewing it and we are meeting a lot um often whatever that is frequently with chanam Park and talking about our concerns our observations

things that we would like to see done when Mr um okay thank you I wrote it down Mr Hatley welcome Mr Hatley was mentioning the elements basically within chadam Park's master plan there's a list of all the things we just talked about and each one has something called an element which is basically the rules of how that thing works and so there are multiple elements and each of those elements apply just as much to the South Village as they appli to the North Village they apply throughout the whole thing those elements I'm going to Hazard to guess I think yes ma'am she's nodding yes they're they're available through our website as well and if you're having trouble navigating them we will help you find them at a different time than tonight but let me just say um the deal with chadam Park is because they did set a master plan and and they set up these things that tell you what the Landscaping is supposed to be like what percentage of trees they have to say what number of parks they have to put how the parts get laid out and by the way in this plan that was on the website we was talking about there is a proposed location of the parks that are proposed in the South Village there is one School site but they are in a continuing conversation with the school board about the actual needs of the site based on full buildout and I feel like I have thoroughly confused you all but I'm dying to hear questions yes Ma you get two per meeting well one's one the babysitter can call in the next one okay one's kind of a joke why do they call it small for small um and then yeah and then um so you said the staff are

reviewing a lot of these we are doing it writing yeah a lot who who who's writing is IT chanon Park right Park WR it joh Park wrote it right we review everything everybody writes sure so they're um they're if this sounds dumb um they're writing their own rules and we're reviewing them or they're writing their own plan and we get to they're writing their plan based on their elements and we are grading their homework as to how closely they are matching their elements because the sorry what do you mean elements the individual pieces of the master plan are called elements so the board approved the master plan and so this is sort of like having your homework check we the staff don't ever design anything and I think that may be a blessing to the town um but basically when engineers and other people turn in stuff it is a check of whether or not your proposal matches our ordinance and identifying it's sort of that one of those matching games like I like to play on my iPad you get to select things that are wrong with it and then you get to write notes and say in our ordinance in state law in the water supply Watershed rules in the rules about highways this is what you're missing I need you to do this and then um I know got to the small area question last okay and then um I know you guys have G done a lot of really good U presentations on like imperatives I wonder talking about buffers on roads and tons of different things all that's included in the master plan right right and um so we're talking about the largest small area plan this side of Mississippi you know with the it's actually the largest one in the United States radio station start from W okay so the United States um um what is your what do you compare it to you guys as your um you know do you do you have

something to uh reference or say how this worked other places or is it truly breaking new ground or it is breaking new ground but let me just say this or no not to me because I'm brave and I have 20 years of experience and a lot of certificates will you be here in 2052 I told you that's that's after my death but um so we'll all have surpassed our terms by but if y'all aren't still sitting in this room but uh what what I was going to say is this um okay so initially when I got here two years ago next month we were to have two two and only two halves of the South Village divided into two plans so there was a plan a plan long ago when Mr Hatley was on that committee I believe there were 27 there you go 27 small area plans was the maximum number and there was no minimum number so basically uh it was decided at that time the feeling was that they would bring something up and get a small area plan approved for each one seemed like that was going to take forever so um it was perhaps going to speed it up now in the case of the North Village that small area plan the initial one had been proved Pro uh approved many years before I got here when I got here they were amending it and it was amended because the project that is now aeria was getting ready to go into some sort of a contract and so obviously they needed to amend it to better suit the needs of that developer however they still had some obligations up there and they needed to meet those as well so the question was how do I meet this and the answer was well we're going to buy some extra land for one thing the wbl tract and land or two of them so let me just

say it's very methodical it's very very well planned out the the small area plan is a planning term that has to do with the midpoint between a master plan and your normal stuff your normal stuff is a subdivision it's a site plan this piece of property we're on right this minute may have never been subdivided but this complex that we're in would be a um would be a site plan good this is a site it might have multiple buildings it is a site um so in the case of Cham Park um the the South Village if you all attended the um the public information meeting that we held over at the community house which I thought was a a very good presentation and I thought it was actually kind of fun um what we actually did was we went through U the reasons for recombining but they it is 5,000 acres is very large and um my belief is that because they have broken up the um the thing into seven phases it's almost like having said seven small area plans it would be my belief why that's my question like why are there not seven small area plans the reason is that they're going to sell off um different pieces in different ways and it is it is my uh belief that they uh decided on that we really haven't gotten a real good clear picture but it is what it is and in terms of our staff reviewing it let me just say this by the time you get your degree in planning which takes about five years years but by the time you get your or if you're a terrible student it takes about seven years but anyway by the time you get your degree in planning um you have

actually learned how to do how to evaluate a master plan you have figured out how to do the stuff in between down here the stuff that's from there down and so the small area plan is something that contains the details that weren't in the master plan but are this is your first swipe at at refining them and then when you get down to individual plans you refine them even further we're talking North and South is that the two small area PL yes that's it for them that's it even though it's 20 30 years difference yes sir okay yes sir and quite large but in terms of the 30 years I don't I guess their original plan was through 250 from the beginning the yeah but but at the same time it's not a mandate that you can't start phase 2G until 2015 absolutely not you could theoretically approve the small area plan um they could theoretically start any of these phases at any point right at their Leisure or whatever at their at their determination right so would it so it could just ma like be a massive amount of change in a really short time yes but it's so so like the time element to me is like it's like funny money right like I don't even want to say money but it's like it's yeah theoretical theoretical but they could but but in terms of what we what we um advise the C the Board of Commissioners whatever our vote on so I'm assuming this is an up or down it's not like we can take part you know we like Pages we will have amended it during the time you all are workshopping it to the point where you can make an I approve or I dis appro Ben and that would be for the entire 5000r yes ma' I feel like the time element to me is just it's just like I said Funny Money the the key for

me is the amount of space that to me seems like a lot of space to approve um in today in today time frame in the sense of if if we think back even 10 years ago PL planning what was in Vogue in planning 10 years ago is not in Vogue anymore perhaps right and that's how things get redeveloped a great example of something that was planned a way and then got redeveloped Research Triangle Park in the 70s when it was conceived every place that was out there every Factory that was out there had to provide their own water and sewer please remember these people are making drugs chemicals these are pills you take in your body Glo Smith Klein you are out there making light bulbs you're making other things and so at the time Research Triangle Park was not part of Durham Research Triangle part was not part of Raleigh or morisville or any other thing it was just sort of a just the subset they didn't have any water they didn't have any sewer there's no effort to run it out several years ago when I first moved to Durham which I moved to Durham in 2009 um the city I'm sorry Research Triangle Park had Incorporated that's the first thing it incorporated as its own city that was the first thing the second thing they did was they got Durham to supply them with water and sewer well all of a sudden you're glaxo you're trying to maximize your profits you have this campus that is the size of Harvard University and there's no reason for you to have that much land if you go out there now what you're going to see is two things that are rather interesting I was on a planning committee for one of those two things one of them is that most of those factories broke up their land because they no longer needed it they removed their own treatment plant situation and they stopped using well water which was probably for the best

um the other thing that the once they Incorporated what they discovered was that actually I don't think anybody in this room would hang around Research Triangle Park after either 3 or 5:00 in the evening if you drove over to my neighborhood which ironically was in resarch Triangle Park and you came to my house what you would discover is that for about 500 Acres there wasn't another person anywhere near you because they tore out like somebody fired a gun it was the beginning of a raid and the object was to get out there as fast as you could so I was in a group that was part of the Council of governments and our assignment was to figure out what would cause younger people younger people would be the people who are more than 22 years old but well under 50 like me yes yes so what makes you want to live there what is missing from your life you work there already so I've got to get you some housing I have to take your salary and figure out what the price point is I've got to also figure out where you're going to eat it can't all be Burger King and it cannot be uh the uh snack bar at Walmart you really do have to have a place to eat or several places to eat you might decide to drink so you might want to be able to get a beer or go to a brew pub near there and then you might need a place to shop and so part of our charge was to figure out what's missing and then figure out an economic development strategy for bringing it in so when you come to that area right now if one of your friend says hey can you meet me at and me mentions a bre Pub and says a group of us are getting together at 5:30 to go have a beer in 1974 no one would have known what you're were talking about they might think you were talking about the trunk of their car they certainly didn't think you were talking about a bar in the place so that's a great Redevelopment that is

literally a case where in 1970s designed has absolutely no validity to current day and what's the size of the I mean I don't know if you know this offand but what's the size of the North Village small area plan is it also 5,000 Acres no the whole site was 8,000 so it's about 3,000 Acres about 3,000 so it's smaller but geographically it had to be smaller there's a river in the way yeah lot of schools in RTP now well yeah I was just going to say what's really interesting is well actually in RTP um there were actually quite a few schools and probably the oddest thing of them all was we had a very dysfunctional post office which got retold there was a horrible library that quite honestly I might be the only person that ever set foot in the place at the time by the time we moved out in 200 um 14 the library had completely been reimagined that entire strip of shopping through there had changed uh printing company that used to be there that took up seven buildings has gone most of those um um monthly and weekly rental places that are the you know you rent a efficiency apartment okay they've now become homes for the homeless for people who are unhoused so obviously there's been a lot of Redevelopment in that area but certainly in this particular project I believe that we're going to find over time that this plan is going to have to adapt and adopt exactly in the same way that the North Village was I don't think they were sitting around one day in 200 and said gosh I wish Disney would build something here so very obviously you know these things happen over time um the cha the challenge or the excitement about this particular plan is that at the southernmost tip of it if you could just put up the first um I'm sorry just the first yeah this the title page that southernmost tip down there that says phase

2f which is going to show up in just a second that is largely a town park what touch yeah right there the green thing yep yep yep that right there and it does actually I believe touch the lake it's not the river I think it's the lake lake come close to Carolina core you know like development and stuff coming down 4 21 or do they have opportunities to purchase that at some point and then change what I'm not I'm not entirely sure we the the cool thing about this is that currently it's largely conceptual and as it moves forward obviously they will reserve the right to make numerous changes I have a question yes ma'am um sorry Ellen anybody El on this side of the table just thr your hand up I want um okay so I'm looking at this well this one and in the legend it has all these different terms like residential East residential residential Parkway um so we're presented with the small area plan will the I mean those zones do they align with our current zones um so residential East is that like r10 is that no no no no check part the entirity is something called a PDD which is a planned development District how do we know what that means you read the elements okay gotcha that that is its own zoning District so that's our only 8,000 uh acre District what's actually happened that you all have been here for some of you have been here longer than others some of you may have been here when I was quite quite middle age but uh since I seem to be in my senior years this time

but um what I was going to say is that um certainly um they reserved the right from the beginning to add additional land not included in the PDD Zone it similarly that's exactly what just happened at wble that's exactly what just happened at Bland that is exactly what happened with the white uh parcel which was the annexation and rezoning that is now where commet apartments are and literally the challenge there was I mean the lazy way to do it but unfortunately it's not the lawful way to do it was to say oh my district is whatever's next door and anything that changes next door just naturally changes on mine well if that was legal that would have been a great idea so what we had to do instead was something quite different which is find out within this whole master plan what things you think are going to happen here and then Zone that middle piece so that they could be Blended in and become all one not all one with the whole thing just one with that one piece I guess I'm just curious about like when we're looking at the future land use plan and no nothing to do with this yeah but they their own future land use plant I know okay it's got a plan Community yeah so anyway sorry I'm sorry but then in that case what grounds do we have to say like we don't like this plan well you evaluate it on its own merits which are a matter of what they have planned for the area and what they have in their elements and how well or how poorly it matches the elements that they had approved originally and what is in place to ensure that they do follow through on the elements staff they've promised the staff of this town okay and correct me if I'm wrong but a lot of that there are a lot of different conditions upon approval and once a lot

especially for subdivision that's kind of the final stage before they can do anything with it to start making money off of it um you can kind of withhold that Subdivision plat before until they meet any needs that are in that an inspection that doesn't mean that you cannot approve the final plat which stops them from selling lots then you can enter into pre-sale agreements which makes it nice and messy but uh the state does allow that so you can have one that's contingent on as soon as this preliminary plats final these sales all happen the same day and we used to see preliminary plats here you're going to see some soon we haven't had anybody bring in one okay okay I and we don't see final plats is that what you don't see them at all okay the assumption is when the final plat and the preliminary plat match each other they don't need to be anywhere outside of Staff okay if they no won't if they changed it materially we'd be back okay which is another way that staff is watching out for that when I say staff it's not planning staff it's planning engineering staff the fire marshal the building inspector do I mean we're we're Team Randy I if I recall I asked a question like when I first started which was like if the Zone if you if what you're going to build matches the zoning if if what you want to build matches the zoning that you have already right then you can just build and no one would have any like there's no um you have to get permits but yeah you have to get permits but there's nothing that would come before us right so I'm just thinking like worst case scenario you got this 5,000 Acres sell it to one developer yes one one um I don't know Builder I don't want to say developer because maybe that'sa yeah yeah yeah they could do that and then they could just build whatever they wanted no they have to build what they agreed to build but but as long as it matches what we approved

in in the plan and it's according to the zoning is that correct corre and so worst case scenario let's say they build something and it matches and and they want to do it on the entire 5,000 Acres tomorrow right it's there's a percentage of this that has to be commercial and there's a percentage of this that has to be residential and there's certain housing types so it would be very hard to do the whole thing absolutely be hard but my my point is they could do that without coming before the board before us or the board again well when they wanted to do that the last time they came to see you all for an update of the North Area uh North Village small area plan and that's how esteria was figured out I just I think I think what um what makes me nervous and I I'm I'm I'm looking forward to reading more about it in the plan is when you have such a large track of land that you say is the biggest in the United States presumably even globally sort of saying like one SW fell soup in 2025 like yes go ahead you're fine it just seems like a really large amount of land to just sort of um approve not in in a peace Mill way right like 500 homes or 50 acres or whatever but instead in this large you know it just feels um it's it feels risky in the sense that there are we going to be able to meet the you know the like the water requirements that you talked about in terms of of schooling in terms of roads all that that's in the point I understand but I'm just saying like it just seems like a large amount of land to sort of approve like just do an up down vote on so I'm Los Angeles and New York City are both very large and they have a wonderful planning step and well Pittsburgh this is still the town though that's going to have a population of

66,000 or more upon completion of this point right and I just worry that if it's you could approve all of this at one time you could have that sooner rather than later because again the time element is funny money in my in my estimation so there's still many many many safeguards in between it's sort of like bulying a rocket to the mo and then fly L back the assumption is you're going to come back don't go in SpaceX but otherwise we're going to assume that you but I I I think that's what I that's what I worry about because it just seems like especially supposed to be a small area plan it should be smaller in some I think small is relative I think they could have just called it an area plan and not Ed the word small but there's a potential right that this won't be just two right I mean there's there that's the they're proposing just to be two right but we're saying that might not be two you know it could be seven more in the back yeah they could come back amended or amend certain parts which is what they did Town Commissioners could say you know what no I think it's best and more prudent to break it up and do separate small plans right don't get to say we get to say right that would be that would be combat we would probably find um chaotic but let me just say at the moment this is the proposal that's coming to you all in a couple months we're going to pass it out in a particular order and to take you through there's like I don't know about 11 chapters or something like that it's over 100 pages and it's very very comprehensive and then there's many many many pages at the rear that are maps and charts and stuff there's also electronic versions that you can blow up to as big as you want it to be you can certainly look into it a great length let me just say though that the the plan itself is not the last

step to getting something built there's many many many steps in between and the reason that the final plat stopped going through the process that it was going through was it quite frankly by the time somebody comes in and they're trying to just do a final plat the review by engineering staff the review by do the review by other folks really basically is just a check of you said you're going to do this did you do this is this what's going on we actually do send people out into the field and they do do inspections and make sure that it matches and actually they break every L every one of their things into a zillion pieces we literally get a chart about every two weeks with 7.1 B 7.1 AB 7.1 d123 AB so I mean it's it's literally we just recently um approved I think it was nine Lots over near the Y and it was just a place where two things sort of kissed each other and they kind of wanted to do a thing because the road was ready and so we've pulled things out in that smaller detail and then we've had you know 500 loss fact the first a piece of a steria speaking of subdivisions Miss Miss Vice chair the first 500 lots of Asteria will be coming in as one Subdivision plat very soon I would like to say also just on the final plat portion is is that I think Pittsburgh was probably one of the only municipalities that was having that come through planning board yes it just um there aren't Nobody Does that doesn't matter trying to get houses built on this side of the table y'all have been so quiet I'm starting to worry about you I have a question so my understanding is we're you're going to present us with a proposed small area plan going to review it and make our suggestions yeah

probably approve something yes at the end of that process but but then there can be future amendments yes does wait left something out and then the Board of Commissioners does their piece now I now so are those future amendments initiated by chadam park or can we no we don't initiate so so once we make our decision and and the board signs off on it you gave them the recipe for making fud right and the next time they want to change the fudge recipe they come back in we don't tell them how much cocoa powder and how many nuts and that sort of we trust them to make their own F so we when we make that decision for for that whole 5,000 acres for that whole time period then we don't get to say uh oh we every every subdivision that is a piece of it come in front of this board but if it matches what we approved they consum if we said no yeah if we with it you just look like you're Dy to say something no I just know from future I mean from past experience the board I mean we've sort of like gotten into some disagreements um because they didn't approve they didn't really like it they didn't like what was going on but is really nothing that we can do as long as they crossed all their tees and dotted all their eyes and the town says yes you met every bit of it whether or not I like it or not I still had to approve whether not I want it to or not and that's it in a nutshell we can sit here all day long and talk about yeah it's a lot of land it's a lot of Acres it's a lot of going on but as long as they do everything and if we make suggestions

when they bring it in okay I think it look better if you did a strip here like this this striple L here you do this to this striple L you do this to this and as long as they agree they don't have to but as long as they agree uh then we go on and we Pro we approve and we we're done and if they decide like you said they decide they want to make some changes they still got to come back they just can't walk up theide to day well shoot I don't really like what I said I was going to do anyway so some going to make a change well they just can't make a change they still got to come back yeah we have the first couple of hundred again I keep looking to figure out where I amross the street at um at reev Farm we have the first couple of hundred it's a 200 two 200 I don't know more than 200 Lots going up across the street first phase that will be coming here you all saw the resoning you did not see what they're going to do with the neighborhood this is the first swipe it is 1,700 structures at the end of the day this is the first 200 so if you're in a hurry planning is boring and it takes forever and if you are used to waiting for things to do what they're doing then it's it's pretty it's pretty organized you'd be very surprised how organized it's very organized you don't get to play with it it's it's black and white it's just best you can put it and and is in the document or in the document does it say like what it's currently zoned as and what it would change to it's currently PDD it will stay PDD they that's their planned development yes sir Alan okay so here we go res forever let he so the phases that are identified here the seven phases was there a primary rationale for how those phases were established yes and I was actually going to go there because it's

it's it's a great it's that's a great question I'm so glad you asked um you have to to Plum the places that are going to have water and sewer mhm our atj doesn't have water and sewer if you live in our atj as some people here do I'm I'm struggling okay so we got two okay you'll notice you may have County Water you may not if you don't you have a well and you have a seic tank this is a situation where they are growing the water and sewers system that is owned by Tri River out and then of course in in some cases their own system which is the Water Reclamation Center over there on Eubank or in over near Eubank so you are growing the system um I'm going to use an old figure because that's what old people do but um back the last time I was pricing out running a mile of sewer it ran between1 and $2 million you also had to hook up 900 St please check that number for me when you get home yeah but a couple years ago it was somewhere between1 and2 million to run the sewer and then you had to hook up 900 structures to it to break even on that investment now we are no longer investing and we are no longer doing that so we're not going out but TR River working with this developer okay I'm sorry when you build a house when you build a neighborhood please for God's sake jump in anytime you want to Cory uh and talk over me it works really good I'm half deaf and I will pretend like I can't hear you but um that's your key to keep talking out me uh please what I was going to say is the builders the

developers build the infrastructure we don't build anything we don't build roads we don't build sewer we don't build storm water devices we don't build anything of that has to be in place before they obviously they can go vertical on anything but that's also where the subdivision plaque comes in and if none of that if if any of that is not finished and in some cases you'll have a fee in L for some of it where they'll the town we build a line to sand no no it's not coming through the tri river is building it we do not build anything remember we got out of the business as we got out of the business out in the business we're a customer just like all but two of you are customers we're customers we're the same customer you are um the customer service is so far pretty good I'm looking over there water is amazing have some while you're here but um let me just say car's having some and so let me just say yeah the water's good and the the service is good but no they build we don't build a dag on thing we if this is sort of like being in a symphony and we're the guys with the Baton or the ladies and gentlemen or whoever with the Baton and all we're doing is pointing to the flute and saying hit it there's your note it's right there on your sheet music we're not doing any we don't we the town do not play the instruments other people play the instrument built and then accepted yes by the town and a lot of that the phasing a lot of that is so that you know they they finish a phase to move on to the next phase that has to be able to connect what the that other phase has built out so that would be part of the phasing itself is oh and I'm sorry the other thing is if you don't

phase your final plan has to be the whole site and that's almost impossible yes yeah well for starters your construction loan will wear out and you will also lose your ability to sell anything right so yeah you have to do it that way now Alan you of all people should know we've been in your neighborhood we found a few deficiencies and we've gone behind folks and said clean this up do this do that or this is a way that you might try doing that um we're continuing to work on that um buyo retention cell at the entrance to your neighborhood uh we are not doing any of the work we are working with their workers to get it the way it needs to be and many of us are certified to actually go out and inspect those things I'm one of those inspectors and have been since 2008 but let me just say this and I don't inspect in this outfit but um anyway I'd ruin the shoes if nothing else but what I was going to say is certainly um there's a lot of safeguards in place but one of the things to keep in your mind is that if you're going to put in water and sewer in 5,000 Acres you don't do it in in a night it would cost enough to you know by several cities so it's going to happen methodically interesting is that in the actual um small area plan there is a location of the forest main there is a map of where the forest Main's going there is some information about where the sewer is going the way the roll out of the sewer is going to happen it's either quite boring or quite exciting you all decide when you start reading it our recommendation to you is go home visit our website tonight download the thing to your hard drive not to your phone it'll probably eat up all the memory on your phone but you would definitely want to put it on the hard drive of something or on a cloud where you can look at it yourself and then spend some time pouring over it and when you hear about an element for this or that please go back to our

website pull it up look it up if you can't find it I have an amazing staff and I tell them that every day many times a day uh to the point where they don't want to hear it every again but the point is they can help you locate it and eventually when you get your paper copy you will have enough me it with it you'll know where to look one other quick thing yes sir um because of the enormity of this yes you don't have to answer me now but one of the first things that came to mind was having a SharePoint site or a something similar to a SharePoint site where we could pose question once we review all this stuff then we go in there and POS questions which staff may or may not be able to answer it may be a question that will be posed to the developer but at least all our questions all our uh will be out there and you know there wouldn't be any dialogue to it because then I know we would be treading on the open meeting I'm not entirely sure that that wouldn't in and of itself do that the way I'm looking at it if there's no dialogue if it's just we'll research it yeah if you would please that's why I say so anyway this tonight was I'm sorry so you all's last month agenda said that you were going to receive training in this type of review and I got home and discovered to my surprise that was supposed to be the agenda for that night that was not the records that I was handed and so I was giving you a wonderful presentation which I feel added a lot to your knowledge base potentially but um this tonight was the actual uh sort of lecture on small area plans that I certainly had intended to give you all the whole time so I hope that this will be some help as far as

tonight's uh updates I don't have a whole lot to tell you other than um you will be seeing the first phase of Asteria very soon we also have some other uh oh and I'm sorry in the place across the street Reef's Farm first phase they have a selected a builder and they have a layout and we're having I think I would call it a very deep and meaningful discussion about how that proposal matches what was turned in and here as a conditional resoning one more question so in terms of the what's uploaded to the website if staff Rec makes a recommendation um to make an to you know in terms of your review would it would it get updated as well or we would stuff's internal until we relate so okay the idea is we're going to try to work for them to get it as close to what we were hoping to see by the time it gets to you and then when it gets around to you then we incorporate your feedback so theoretically I could study study study this thing but you guys could make significant changes or n or not or not and then and then and that would be and those would be two different okay but the thing you'll be handed in this summer and a for your three- ring binder will definitely be what we have released and said this is as Clos as we think it's going to get all right if there are no other questions we'll move to um our board comment period if anybody has anything that they would like to address bring up thank anyone I would like to thank Randy for the wonderful presentation um and thank everybody on the board for being here today um it is a holiday St Patrick not wearing a green suit I thought he has one I'm sure he that is [Music]

not as Irish as I get all right uh well then um with that I will take a motion to adjourn all right motion to adjourn by Alan Wilson do I have a second I'll second charity M with a second all all in favor of adjournment I motion passes we are adjourned