Board of Commissioners (boc) - Regular Meeting

Thank you very You say only.

Good evening. Uh if All right, we're going to get started here. If everybody uh sorry about the seating situation, apparently we've been over our capacity according to the fire marshall and so we're going to work on that for next meeting, but we can't add more chairs and block the doors. So apologize about that. Uh I will call this meeting of the Pittsburgh Board of Commissioners for April 13, 2026 to order. And we will start with a moment of silence. Please join me. Thank you, Mayor Pro Farrell. Will you lead us in a pledge of

allegiance? Would everyone rise for the pledge to the flag of the United States of America? Aenda. All right. There's a lot of people here tonight, so we're going to have to keep the noise down. Okay. Thank you. Um the adoption of the agenda know we have in the uh consent agenda. I know we have one change moving the ABC board appointment. It's currently 8 I to after number five. Are there any other changes to the regular or consent agenda?

Talk about farmers market. Make a motion to approve with modifications. Thank you. Uh motion to approve the revised agenda. Mayor Pro second. Commissioner Foley. Any discussion? All those in favor say I. I. All right. I'll take a motion to approve the consent agenda. Move. Second. Thank you, Commissioner Huner. Second, Commissioner Bonnets. All those in favor say I. I. Thank you. Up next, we have Citizens Matters, and we will start with the manager's update.

Thank you, Mayor. Uh, no report at this time, but I will turn it over to Mayor Armstrong to introduce a new member of the team. Thank you, Mayor. Um, commissioners, I would like to introduce Jenny Reeves. She's our new connectivity project manager. has posted a few months back. She will handle project management for transportation overlap as well as parks and wreck for the connectivity and greenways trails all the portion of that. So we have a addition to the team. Welcome. Glad to have you. Glad to have that here.

All right. Thank you. Up next is mayor and commissioner reports. I will start. We had a Central Pines regional planning organization meeting on April 9th. That is where we discuss DOT updates. So, uh projects are still on track and we're working on prioritizing uh particularly pedestrian improvements for the next prioritization cycle. On March 10th, I attended the Smart Cities Connect Conference in Raleigh and participated on a panel on innovation in municipal government. And then March 10th through 12th, we had the Oh, all right. How's that?

Um, you guys can say something about that. But, uh, all right. And, uh, March 10th through 12th, we had the North Carolina Main Street Conference and the pop-up park won a statewide award for best outdoor improvement. So, we'll do more on that, um, next month. Have a special session. Um, we had a ribbon cutting, sort of a ribbon cutting, a opening on April 9th at the public works building, the renovated public works building in and yard. It was really amazing to see that and and how that has improved. And then on April 10th, we had a twine cutting at Reclamation. So excited to have them out in their new location and uh it was an excellent uh party out there that evening. Thanks a lot.

So congratulations. Uh March 21st for Arbor Day, we did uh two tree plantings in the courthouse circle. So you'll see two new trees as you go around there. And then April 9th, we had a meeting with the Main Street state representative from the Main Street program and our annual uh update with them and how things are going. Lots of positive things to say about Pittsburgh and our uh program there. So appreciate everybody that works on that. Um that's all for me. Mr. Higer,

um I have nothing to report on Ahack for this month. Um but I did want to briefly address uh some misinformation regarding the process of involving Mr. Vogle of Sassy, which is Southerners Against Surveillance Systems and Infrastructure in regards to the flock topic. Uh Commissioner Bonnets and I did meet with him. It was very productive fact-finding conversation in which he shared a lot of information. We were able to ask questions and I asked uh the mayor the town manager and police chief to also uh see that presentation. Um since our board our March board meeting uh the mayor, police chief and manager have made efforts to meet with Mr. Vogle. Multiple opportunities were extended for him to meet with all of them. Those requests uh were declined unless the conversations were fully public and on the record. Um, additionally, the mayor and town manager requested materials to review in advance and those requests were also declined. And I just want to make it clear to everybody that's just not how effective uh factf finding works. There must be space to ask questions, clarify details, and fully understand an issue before positions are finalized. And that is not a lack of transparency. that is conducting due diligence and uh Mr. Vogel is welcome to be part of future conversations but he does not get to define the process. Um the board and staff will continue to gather information, listen to the community and make thoughtful informed decisions and that's our responsibility that we take very seriously and I look very forward to seeing the presentation from Chief Johnson this tonight. Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner. Commissioner Bonnets. Um, I do not have a formal report from the Chattam County Climate Advisory Committee the last meeting from last

month. Um, but um I I think I'm going to pass tonight because I don't feel adequately prepared. But yeah, thank you. Okay, no problem. Mayor Pro Tim Barrell.

Um, I attended the ABC board sales here in Pittsburgh trending upward. I also attended with Secretary of State Elaine Marshall for the small business startup. That was very uh Commissioner Thurber and Bonnets were also attendance. Um, other than that, we the ABC does have a nomination for the board. It's coming up today tonight. Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner Foley.

Busy busy month. I I attended the Cadam uh Chattam Development uh breakfast. That is the the the uh the commerce department, Commerce Chamber of Commerce, excuse me, on on March 24th. That was very informative. Central Pines's housing seminar. Uh on March 18th, uh I attended municipal perspective on housing. and on the ninth uh commit to civility training and also I am involved with the community development academy with the North Carolina School of Government and they're just filling my head on just wonderful things about I see some nods some nods over there. It's it's it's a great class. just filling my heads with community block grants ideas and how we can improve downtown Pittsburgh to make it a thriving uh thriving downtown. So, uh that's one more thing that the county has asked me to talk about and that is bear with me. on April 23rd from 4 to 6, Chad County at the Chadlin County A Center, which happens to be right here. There is a how housing is is is made and and it's invit everybody's invited to it. Uh there is daycare available if you need it and translation abilities. So, it's just how a community finds the appropriate housing and from start to finish and that's here and that's sponsored by the county. So, that's it for me. Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner Thurber.

I don't have any updates this evening.

Thank you. Okay. Up next, we have the uh moved item or I'm sorry, we have public comment. Um we have seven people signed up this evening for public comment. So, when you come up, please state your name and address at the start of your comments. There's a time limit of 3 minutes, which will be displayed on the screen. In the interest of time and fairness, it's the board's policy not to respond directly to comments during this period. Staff will follow up as appropriate. Any speaker with handouts will give them to the town clerks, and they'll be distributed to the board at the conclusion of this meeting. So, up first is Tyler Patterson, followed by Alan Cat. Good evening. My name's Tyler Patterson. I'm 118 Mumm Hill. My wife and I are both from North Carolina. We're raising our family here and we're small business owners in this community. I want to start clearly. This is not a criticism of law enforcement. I respect the work of the Chattam County Sheriff's Office and the Pittsboro Police. I understand why a tool like block cameras can be useful. But the concern is not just how this works on a local level. It's what we connect ourselves to. Respectfully, we consider it irrelevant how the city and/or Chattam County will handle this data or what Flock's multi-million dollar sales and marketing department has promised them. Section 5.3 of the contract gives through subjective language ample legal precedent for Flock to quietly back up and sell this footage before the jurisdiction has a chance to follow through on their policy of limited data retention and delete the footage. Despite what we may want to believe, this local department does not and will not control the data or the terms under which the system operates.

Automated license plate readers over time build a record not just of suspects but of ordinary people going about their daily lives. Block Safety is a venture-funded company backed in part by Founders Fund, a firm founded by Peter Teal. He is behind Palunteer Technologies and Anderil Industries. These systems are designed to grow more data, more integration, more reach. We will hear asurances about how the system works, policies, limits, safeguards. But this is a software platform. No one at that company, no one can tell you how it will evolve over time. They cannot tell you what incentives will take priority. You can't tell how the relationship between the company and its customers will change. Once a system like this is in place, it can be expanded, integrated, and used at levels far beyond this community quietly and without the consent of this community or local authorities. Recognize something. Just because it is not government doesn't mean it cannot shape how people live. Private systems already make decisions about access, insurance pricing, employment screening, eligibility for services. Those decisions are increasingly informed by data. So imagine what happens when detailed long-term records of where people go, when they go there, and how they move through their daily lives become part of that broader data environment. Not in a dramatic one-time way, but quietly, incrementally, adjustments to risk scores, credit scores, changes in eligibility, different pricing, different scrutiny, different assumptions. decisions that affect what people can access. Thank

you. Your time is up. Up next is Alan Cat followed by Tanya Garcia.

Cat 180 Willyworm Drive. I just threw a really nice threeminute talk out the window about 30 minutes ago. I had an extremely delightful conversation with Captain Lewis whereupon he described the fact that flock has been running in our county since February of 2024 which is far longer than I originally thought. He said it's been quite efficacious for them and their investigations. Um which is the most feedback I've heard about this program from their side of the aisle ever. Um which is amazing. Um, as Commissioner Thurber said earlier tonight, there is a balance between the desires of the public and the needs and tools of first responders and law enforcement. And apparently, Flock is an extremely effective tool for law enforcement in this area. I am delighted to know that will be talking today about how the program is used, um, things it's been effective for. I encourage the commission and Pittsburgh PD and Chhatt County Sheriff's Office to continue sharing information about how flock is effective in the community. Uh I think the transparency is the right way to do things. As Commissioner Huniger pointed out earlier, there is a right way to go about these things and I think the increased transparency is an excellent step forward. Um, I'm actually so confident that Flock will be an effective tool, um, and proved so by these conversations that I think after the police department tells us about it tonight, they should continue to tell the community about it for an extended duration, maybe a couple months, and then it should be considered to be put before the public for general comment, for discussion. And I think that if flock is as advantageous as they say, the general public would actually vote saying that they encourage the use of flock and the spending of funds on it. Um because my opinion has been changed

by conversations with law enforcement in our area. And I think that the direction we're moving in is a very productive one and I'm very happy with how things are turning out. I do believe that the right way of doing things would be to ask the taxpayers and the members of the community what their opinion is on the system that is watching them that they are paying for. But I do believe that Pittsburgh PD most likely has enough evidence from the last two years to demonstrate that the system works, that the system has merit, and that it's worth the money we're paying for it. Thank you. you. Up next is Tanya Garcia followed by Cindy Perry.

Thanks. Sorry. I'm uh I live at 47 Lockwell Street and I am here also to speak about the flock system. I want to be very clear from the start that I'm asking that we remove it. Um I am the owner of a data management system for my company and this is not about opposing public safety. It's about ensuring that tools we use are properly vetted, properly governed, and aligned with the expectations of the people who live here. Um, this is this presentation that we received, we got to see it ahead of time. Um, shows that the system was adopted without formal evaluation. There was no public impact assessment, no privacy review, no independent analysis of alternatives, no community consent process. The system was implemented first and only after concerns were raised did the department begin adjusting policies. That's not responsible governance. We also learned that the department recently removed participation in the nationwide sharing network. That means our data was being shared nationally before it was stopped. The public was not informed. As far as I'm aware, the board was not asked for explicit approval. If we truly own our data, we should never have to remove it from networks we didn't knowingly authorize. The presentation claims the system does not replace officers, but the system performs tasks the officers previously did manually, scanning vehicles, detecting patterns, sending alerts, generating investigative leads. And when technology performs job functions, even partially, it does replace portions of labor. And if it reduces workload, then staffing and budget requests should reflect that. And we cannot claim increased efficiency and also claim no impact on staff on staffing needs. This contradiction matters because it impacts how we allocate our tax dollars. The cost structure shared while it seems like savings also increases. It means it creates long-term dependency. Flock is a perpetual subscription. The town never owns the hardware or software. Costs can increase at any time. We have no control

over the system. That is not a sustainable model for public safety infrastructure. Civil liberties concerns also remain unresolved. The legal case cited in the presentation said that it was currently under appeal. And no matter how the case plays out, repeated captures over time can reconstruct a person's movement. Legal compliance is the minimum standard and our community deserves better than the minimum. Finally, transparency and oversight are insufficient. Internal audits and vendor control portals are not independent oversight. True accountability requires review, public reporting of audit results, clear documentation on how the data is assessed, shared, and retained. We should have received it ahead of time. For these reasons, I believe flock system should be removed, and I urge the board to discontinue flock system and halt all further investment in it. Thank you.

Thank you.

Excellent. The honorable Cindy Perry, followed by John Burgerer. You can give those to the clerk, please. Good evening. I am Cindy Perry. I live at 259 Hillsboro Street here in the wonderful town of Pittsboro. I am just old enough to have had to read 1984 in my senior year of high school and I never thought that it would come to fruition and it has. Now, I want you to know that I have the greatest confidence in our chief and in our sheriff, but someday there may be people in those posts who I don't have confidence in. And so it's not, I hope, a diminishment of your authority, chief, um, or that of the sheriff, but it's an important thing that we have that kind of balance that allows us to understand exactly what our roles are and where our data is going. And speaking of balance, there's got to be a balance between uh our privacy, our civil liberties, and that of the law enforcement aspect. So, I look forward to you hearing about the successes that you have had, Chief. But I'm also very, very concerned about the use of the data. And I would urge you to look at the balance between our civil liberties and our uh experience with flaw and as well look at the expense involved, the expense of our freedom and the expense to a company that we really don't know a great deal about. So thank

you very much for your consideration. you. Next is Yan Ber followed by Logan Frederick.

Hi, my name is Yan Ber. I live at 726 Diamond Road. And I don't want to take too much of your time. I know that you all have a lot of stuff to talk about tonight. And um some a whole bunch of our neighbors are here tonight that all are very concerned about flock. I guess if people want to stand up, if you're concerned about flock, raise your hand so that we know that you're there. Um, and uh, you know, again, like former mayor Perry said, I really appreciate the work of the police department here in Pittsburgh. You know, I think people are doing an excellent job. And if they do need help, I would ask to ask the citizens, ask us to help. We can have citizens groups. We can put together citizen watches. We can have a dialogue if that's helpful. But we don't need this third party that we didn't ask for coming in. We don't feel safer having this data, our information shared to who knows what. Not even governments, but third parties. And I want to say that the section 5.3 that Tyler was speaking about earlier talks about how um during the retention period flock may use, preserve and or disclose footage to law enforcement authorities, government officials and third parties. And it goes on about that. but they can basically do what they want with this with this information that they're getting from us and that doesn't make us feel safer. Um, so I would ask that you cancel the contract and if you or ask for a vote from us so we can decide if we want this or not. Thank you.

Logan Frederick uh 63 Binham Hill. I am here to speak strongly against flock cameras as a resident and in a professional capacity. Since I work on AI systems, I do medical software. For example, if you or a loved one has been screened for breast cancer, there is a chance your radiologist has used AI cancer detection software that I worked on. So, it's my job to gather the evidence that AI systems like this are safe, effective, and resistant to abuse. You can trust me when you say that flock cameras are none of these things. But you don't have to because I came with citations. Flock cameras and other AI license plate readers make mistakes that are already causing real harm. All it takes is a two that becomes a seven, and families are traumatized. CBS, NBC, and other news outlets reported an incident in Colorado last year where a misread license plate turned a trip for ice cream into a $2 million settlement. A mother and several young girls, including a six-year-old, were held at gunpoint and screamed out to lay face down on hot asphalt. Officers did not realize the software confused the place of a family car with a stolen motorcycle two states away. There are many similar stories, but it's important to keep moving to share how these systems are abused. The Witchah Eagle reported a Kansas police chief used flock cameras over 200 times to stalk his ex-wife and new boyfriend. A common rebuttal is that horrifying abuses of power could not happen on our force, but our local data does not stay local. According to the EFF, Texas officers misread the public when they were pursuing a missing person's case and accessing tens of thousands of cameras nationwide. Journalists would later discover that it was an abortion investigation initiated in bad faith by her abuser. Likewise, the ACLU has repeatedly found that outside agencies like ICE regularly obtain local data without public knowledge or approval. And as of just this month, reports are emerging that flock employees are abusing their positions to view live feeds from law enforcement cameras and private businesses in their network. One

man in Dunwy, Georgia, has published records requests for access logs in his town, showing multiple high-ranking flock employees accessing cameras they should not, including feeds of people and children in pools, yoga studios, and gymnastics facilities. All this risk of false positives and abuse and for what? Pittsboro is far below the national average in violent and property crime statistics, including motor vehicle fam. Block cameras are not justified. They are not safe and they are certainly not resistant to abuse. They do not belong here. Friends, neighbors, commissioners, I work on AI systems every day. They are powerful and fascinating tools, but they are not the solution to all of humanity's problems. Our area is growing, not costcutting. Let's invest in public safety locally, in our people and our community, not a massive surveillance company. Thank you.

Is Mara Dylan here.

A board of applause.

My name is Mora Dylan. I live at 326 Mronite Road in Pittsboro. Um, nice to see you all this evening. Later, you'll be asked to make decisions about three proposals regarding parkland in Chattam Park's South Village. Parks are wonderful and important. They can be the hub of community gathering and activity. The way Chattam Park investors have described their development would suggest that parks are part of a larger system of thoughtfully integrated neighborhoods planned according to where people live, what they do, and how they move around. but is really unclear from these proposals how the parks fit into their surrounding neighborhoods. Under the original master plan and development agreements, decisions like these were intended to be evaluated within the framework of a detailed small area plan. We've all talked about this a lot before, right? That plan would have provided critical information such as housing density, future land use, street and greenway connections, and the location of other parks and public important public infrastructure. With that level of detail, you would be very well equipped to determine whether these park locations truly serve the community and contribute to a well integrated live workplay vision that Chattam Park promotes or whether the park locations simply meet minimum requirements and check boxes. Without the section specific context, how can one be expected to make a well-informed decision? Each of these individual proposals might seem minor on their own, but if changes and proposals continue to be presented in such a peacemeal way without a comprehensive and detailed framework, the result will be a more fragmented and less cohesive South Village, which as we know is going to be very defining of this whole area. These three proposals tonight are examples of how the board's ability to evaluate the development

against the standards and vision originally promised and agreed on is significantly limited without the detailed more comprehensive small area plan process. You deserve the bigger picture to make the best decisions for Pittsboro and the whole area's future. and for the record and for strong neighborhoods and communities and very very concerned about flocking risks. Thank you. Up next, we have the moved action item for the appointment of the ABC board. Commissioner Frell. Yes. Um, we had numerous

we had 12 applications for the ABC board. Numerous applications that were sent out were for Chattam County ABC board. So, little confusion there, but the board has uh came up with an a nominee that we would like I would like to make a motion to move forward with William Huntley. William Hartley. Sorry, excuse me. Bill Hartley with a term ending December 31st, 2028. Yes. December 31, 2028. Sorry. Thank you. Is there a second? A second. Thank you, Mr. Thurber. Any discussion? All those in favor say I. I.

Thank you. Up next. Yes. Thanks, Scott. Up next, we have a presentation on flock safety ALPR cameras. Johnson might have to be going back and forth with my glasses on and off. So, um All right. Well, mayor, commissioners, I appreciate the uh time to be able to present on this. It's my fault. I guess we should have presented on this earlier um to get the information out um to the community. Um I just want the community to know that we have been listening to y'all. Um we have been diligently working to try and and change things. We're we're listening y'all. We want to do the best for what we can do for us and for y'all. So, with that, I want to start with the presentation. Um, first thing I do, our our objective as any police department or any law enforcement is deter crime. We know we're not going to prevent all crimes. I'm not going to stand up here and say that that we can do it as as a human. And I know those cameras are not going to do it either, but what we want is to have all the necessary tools that we can to try to solve crimes if they do occur or when they occur here in town. Um, as town grows, so does the opportunity to for crime to occur. with the growth of housing developments, apartment complexes, hotels, all the retail stores and and large box stores that that we're getting and that are coming. Um, that gives bad actors a a plethora of uh targets to hit. All the housing developments, they they're they're close together. That means the houses are

closed, the cars and apartment complexes. So, we see people come in and they just they're going from car to car to car to car to break into these to try to look to see what to break into. Um, the cameras that that we're using, they're tools. That's all they are. They're not to to monitor people. They're not to follow people. We're just using them as tools to assist us so that when those crimes do occur, um, we can't rely on on home security video or home security cameras in businesses. Uh, I've been in this line of business for 32 years. I was a detective for most of the time. I've been to countless homes where they said, "Well, we've got we've got security cameras." And you go and nothing recorded. I've been to businesses to where they've said, "We've got cameras." They go to play it and the cameras don't even work. They're they're surprised they didn't even work. Um, so this is just another way for us to try to help those. Um many times we don't have islands either because it's in the dark of night um or a lot of people and unfortunately um as society and as a community um people don't want to get involved. People say, you know, people don't want to sit there and say, "Well, I've seen this or I've seen that." So, we can't rely on eyewitnesses all the time. We have to sit there and and try to find tools to work. Um, and the placement of the cameras that was to that's to assist us in our investigations. Um, it's not to, like I say, it's not to monitor any residents. It's not to monitor cars going in. Um, we we do not care who goes and when they go. As long as everybody gets home safe, there are no crimes, then we don't even we don't even look at these cameras.

the camera loc Oh, sorry. All right, the camera locations. I'm going to start on the uh on my left hand side here. So, at the bottom, that's down at May Farm. The one just to the left of it is in uh on Churchwood Lane. The next one up is on Thompson Street at Chattam Forest. And the top one up there is that Park Drive uh near 15501 or Hillsboro Street. On my right at the bottom, that's Old Rock Springs Church Road. The one on the left is at Lowe's on Lowe's Drive. The one across from me overside it is at Pow Place. The one up above it is at Northwood Landing at 15. And the one at the top is Russet Run. Okay. So, here's here's a little bit of the history of of what I've seen. From January of 2015 to March 2023, we took um we wrote 2777 incident reports. Of those 355 were involved were residential breakins, lararseny from motor vehicles, lararseny of motor vehicle parts, and thefts of motor vehicles. From those, 127 of those um or 36% are where we have cameras at now. So over a third of those crimes that that we were looking at happened where we put the put the cameras at. I didn't go and and and choose I just to drop these cameras anywhere. Um I looked at where we were having the crimes at. We there were many times that we had neighborhoods that had 10 or 15 cars broke into overnight. They would sit there and and like I say, we could go back and they were breaking

into cars. That's where we placed the cameras at. I was trying to give my detectives and my officers the best chance they had to try to solve the crimes that were happening. to all our neighbors. Um, I started seeing success stories. One was from Garner. Um, I started seeing where they had um, success with their with their flock cameras. Um, that got me into looking at it and I decided to I talked to the town manager. We were able to I was able to get them into the budget. We installed five camp. Um the first five with the Pow Place, Lowe's Drive, Churchwood, Silverstone, um or Churchwood at Silverstone, May Farm, and Thompson Street. In 2025, we added those last four cameras that I went over. Northwood Boulevard, Bust Run, Old Rock Springs, and Park Drive. Again, these cameras were put where we were having crimes at. Um, so that was that was where I was looking at and that was my my rationale for putting the cameras there. And I forgot to tell you, anytime y'all got questions, just go ahead and ask what this system is and is is not. It's a case-driven investigative tool. That's all it is. We have to have a case to go in and look at these cameras. I will go in and and go over um the search parameters that we have to do and and the information that we have to enter to be able to to actually investigate one of these or to look at the cameras. Um it's used after a crime, which like I say, if we have a breakin overnight or or there's some kind of crime that's occurred that we can go back and we can look at those cameras or if we get an active alert, that's that's anything that's entered NCIC, which I will go into that later on. um that that's stolen vehicles, missing person, amber

alerts, um wanted people that if if we get an alert from that, then we're able to go to go to that area and there's a limited 30-day retention. Um before you, who has access on your staff to this information? Does everybody?

Yes. and I'll go there there'll be a slide down but and I I I'm sorry I did I got up here and I know we're we're rolling tonight but um Carrie McCormack from Flock he's a public affairs manager he's right back there in the doorway so he's he is here he's not presenting but he's here to to answer any questions too that y'all have I apologize for not introducing you what this system is it does not continentally track. When you go by the camera, the camera takes a picture of your car. I cannot tell if if you go down there, if you if you turn on the power place, I don't know if you've turned into the gas station, or if you've gone straight through. If you turn on to um Russet Run, I don't know if you've gone to Bojangles, gone to the doctor's office, gone to the hotel, gone straight down in We have no idea. All it does is is take a picture in time and that's the only um thing that it does. Our system it does not have facial recognition. Um and as far as I as far as I'm con I'm I'm sure and Mr. McCormack can back me up on this block system doesn't yet to question on that. Um, so you said that you won't know if I'm make a turn if I'm going to a doctor or if I'm going to a church or whatever,

right? But that's because of the placement of your camera. We only have nine. But as the more cameras get introduced into town, if another business decides to put one right on a corner by my doctor, well, now that data would be there because now my car has gotten a picture closer to where I may have turned in. Is that correct? Yep. So it could technically as it grows do exactly what it's not doing right now. If they it can turn if if they were to get a flock camera. So I guess since we're on flock we're going to stay flocked.

Um if they get if they get a flock camera if they get another you know another camera system then yeah I mean yes it would take a a picture in time um as you go by. We're not monitoring individuals or gatherings. Um, I know there's there's been talk across uh across the country about people going to protest or you know that that people are or agencies are falling falling in with flock. Um, we're not doing that. Like I say, I we we do not care what you do. As long as you're not breaking the law, we do not care. We don't care what you go who you go with, um, or or what you do. As long as you're not breaking the law, then there's nothing nothing that we do.

Um, another question if I may. Um, I know that you don't care who goes to the no kings pro or who may go to another type of protest or something like that, but there are organiz or organizations or governments that um, agencies that might care and we've seen articles, I know I've read them, where flock data has been subpoenaed by administrative subpoena, which I know we've spoken about to get that information. So while I think you know Mayor Perry had mentioned we have trust in you and we have trust in our sheriff department maybe not so much a little higher up. So while you may not care who goes to the protests unless somebody's breaking the law there may be other agencies. So how is that how do we protect that? That is unfortunately I can't I can't stop other agencies from other officers from doing wrong. I mean because of me that's wrong.

I mean that that's that's that's the thing. Um I unfortunately I can't for the the search that we have or the agencies that that we're related to which now we're just we're statewide. We're not nationwide. Um, you know, that's if if if they do if they do search, but if if if they search, they would have to search for I mean, they would have to search for your drive for your license plate. I mean, that's if if you were go to a no Kings protest in Chapel Hill,

um, they would have to they would have to sit there and search your license plate. Now, that that's that's on them. what they do they even though they can't use that for our I mean with our data they can't do that because they are they're searching their system they're searching your license plate but even if it shows here in town it's not doing them it they're not they can't follow you as far as to a no kings protest up there is what I'm saying I mean that would be on them to search that to search their system which if they search statewide they would sit there and they may see that your license plate hits here in town, but it doesn't search at the time that you're at. I mean, if they do it, they're not searching our data. They're searching their I mean, the data that they're getting

like after facts, right, is what I'm trying to say. I mean, it's not that they're using our data or our license plates that go across our system. They're searching their inside there if they do have flocks inside their flock system. Okay. Thank you, Chief. If you you you continue to say our data, is it your is it the town's data or is it flock's data? It's our data. It's our data. Yes. Flock how does that interaction or how does flock sorry to slow this down but I can ask again this mic is public

public affairs manager block. Thank you. Didn't want to steal the thunder there but thank you for the question the mayor and the commission for having us today. Um just a couple quick things. Um uh so the communities that we contract own their data. Um it is explicitly written um into our terms of service as well as your contract. So um the the end customer of that which would be the community or the police department owns that data and that's explicitly written in our in our contracts. Sorry, could you identify yourself please?

I'm so sorry. Carrie McCormack. I'm a public affairs manager and safety. My understanding the contract does allow for your company to create meta data. So, um, creating lists of the images that are captured and then retained for only 30 days.

Yes. So, there's a 30-day period generally across the country unless there's a state law that requires a smaller number for each individual customer's data. after 30 days that data is hard deleted unless it is downloaded con in connection to a crime or a missing person. So the way it works is is that your police department is going to use it in one or two ways. One is a alert will come to them and that means that a license plate that is connected to someone that's committed a crime, a vehicle that's committed a crime or a missing person will drive by a camera. So, it's been uploaded in a national or state database or a local database and it's going to ping your police department to say, "Hey, that Amber Alert of that missing child, that vehicle just drove by this camera at this location." In that, it would be yes, the time, the metadata that you're referring to would be the time, location of uh the camera, timestamp, things like that. The other way it would be used is if um retrospectively um your police department can go into the system and search the plate. Importantly, and this is mandatory for all users of the system, they have to put in and commissioner, I think this kind of speaks to one of your questions as well, they have to put in a reason as identified um either by a crime or missing person. That is not optional. So they have to go in there and they have to say I am searching this plate because you know it was involved in a a felonious assault or a missing person or whatever it might be. And all of that information one the officer in the system has a unique ID so you'll know who's searching it and it's all kept into perpetuity um in an audit log. So, um, if there's ever a question of we want to know, um, you know, how the system was used or the chief has a concern, um, they can go into that permanent audit log and see exactly how it was used. But that search has to be done in correlation with either a crime or missing person. And again, if that

data is 30 days plus one minute, it's gone and unreoverable. Right. So, I want to I want to allow for questions from the board. Um, but also Jordy has a lot of good information in the presentation, too. He's doing a good job. So, I mean, that's he's hit he's hit some of the stuff that I was I was going to do. Your thunder,

sir. I'm all for it. Um, we are not using this for immigration enforcement or reproductive care. Um, and I will go into that in a slide or two down the way. Um, I again I cannot I can't stop what other agencies are doing across this country. I can sure guarantee if somebody messes up here, if somebody does that, then they'll be held accountable, but I can't, like I said, I can't I can't do it for I'm here to California, but I can do it in Pittsburgh. Um, and it's not used for for trafficking. We don't go back in. We're not looking at to make sure that you've got your tag your tags expired or or anything like that. I mean, that it's not used for for trafficking. Um, there are some road raid cases that we've done, but I, you know, I would definitely say road raid is a a lot different than, you know, traffic enforcement or license plate um issues. This system does not prevent all crime and it won't make you feel safe. I mean that that's that's I I agree with people on that. Um if I could prevent all crime then I'd be asking for a whole lot more money. It's we can't you know we can't do it. All we can do is have the tools that when it does occur that we have the tools that can help us. Um I know there were some people tonight have talked about um looking at officers or investigations or or you know trying to do the correlation with that. This system won't replace officers or investigations. Th this is a tool. I mean this is may be AI driven and you know it's it's a computer. I mean it's data. It needs officers and it needs investigators to follow through with this investigate and um with this

information and to verify that this information is what it says it is. Um Lord help we all make mistakes and and all these computers and everything else that we work with they they make mistakes also but there are safe there's safety play or um systems in place for that. Again, it doesn't provide continuous monitor. Um, it doesn't watch you go. Um, once you go past set past that uh camera, it takes a photo and that's all it does. Um, it doesn't have fake facial recognition in it. So, it doesn't identify individuals. Um, data collection and storage. And this is one of the one of the things that that's come up. Um all data like I say all data belongs to the town. It does not belong to flock. Um the retention period is 30 days just like Mr. Corn. If it's 30 days and one minute it's gone. Um they were I know um our salesman had had told us that he's had agencies to contact him that were looking for data from 32 days. They had a crime that was committed and the data was 32 days after that or before that, excuse me, before that. They thought that Flock could go back and get it and Flock couldn't get it. The The data is gone. It's deleted. Um the cloud-based storage, I know a lot of people's um got an issue with that and and Mr. McCormack can probably talk about that better than I can, but it is it's cloud-based storage. Um so and then the with the contract we're on um our the first contract we signed was in or I signed was in August of 2023 up under section four data use and licenses. It states that Flock does not

own and shall not sell customer data. It goes into another paragraph and says it that PL does not own shall not sell customer generated data and it does not own and does not sell or shall not sell anoms data. Um that is the contract that that we're up under. um the new contract that in February and I know that's a that that was a point of uh contention with some folks that the 20 evidently the 2026 version which came out I think in February um changed the changed the uh wording to be asked between flock and customer all right title and interest in to customer data belonging to or reta and or retained by customer. Um, so basically from from my understanding, M. McCormack, he can probably speak to it better than I can. They kicked out a bunch of the they they combined all of that first in that first 2023 version that we have and made it into this this cleaner version here in 2026. Um, but like I say, we are still up under we're not up under the the 2026 version. We're still up under the 2023 burst. Um our access and policy, you were asking about this. Um every every officer we have has access um to the system. Um we're required to complete training which um the the officers or everyone has done user training session um search certification, alert certification and mobile application. um also to use the system. Now you we have well we had individual accounts they've gone now to u adding multi uh factor authentification. Um so we're we have to have a a secondary way to to log into the system. Now

um inside the police department we have three tiered groups. Um one is the officers and that is they they're able to search and view inside the system. the detectives are able to search and view and also create hot lists. And those hot lists are if we have a a vehicle that that's going to Lowe's and still in plants at night, we can go in and if we're able to develop a suspect out of that, then we can add that tag into the ve into the into our hot list and if it goes by one of those cameras, it will we'll get an a notification from block through text message and email that says that vehicle has gone by there. So we can go to that area and uh and look for that that vehicle. Um the administrative is the same as same as detectives and we can search view and we have the ability to view the analytics inside the inside the flock system. Um the department of internal policy we have an internal policy on the license weight raers. Um and just to show the the violations of the policy range um anywhere from removal of access to discipline up to and including termination and if it comes down to it then we'll criminally prosecute it and I'll be the one to take the warrant out. I mean that that's how determined I am that we're going to we're going to do what we're supposed to do with this system. um the transparency and oversight. I know I've heard that throughout uh you know tonight and u throughout this system or throughout the the meetings that y'all had. Um the monthly internal audit I go into um we can go in and search through the OCA which is our our case number, incident

number that we get and our call for service number. If we don't if if a crime doesn't get to the point of actually doing a incident report, we can do a call for service which comes from Chattam Communications where who dispatches us. They give every call that they get that comes through the 911 center out there gets a call number. So we'll always have a call number to to back that up. um we'll be able to go in and look at the the OCA number, the reason that they searched it, um the crime that they searched it, and we can go through and verify that the actual call number, the case number matches the the license plate they're looking or the description of the car they're looking for and why they're looking for. So that that's another way that we're trying to to make sure that that there's no abuse of the system. Um just just to go I started looking um looking back and just to give y'all um the last 29 days inside the system um the the camera's read,498.

Say that again. I'm sorry. 3,4001 3 I'm sorry 341,498. Trying to fight not putting my count not putting my glasses down. Um the searches we performed the last 29 days are were 68. Those 68 searches were from 12 distinct cases. So that's either a call for service number or that was a case number. Um, so the and the license plates that we searched, we either had a we had a license plate we could look for or we had a description of a vehicle, but we had nine license plates that we actually searched for in in that 29 days. Um, 18 days we did no searches at all. Now some people say it ain't worth it. I say thank God we didn't have a crime to do it. Um, but that just to me, like I said, that that shows that we're not we're using the system like we're supposed to. We we're not just going in and searching for anybody and everybody's tag. Um, if we do not have to search, we're not searching, we're not searching cameras. Um the highest day of searches within that we did have 20 searches on that day but we had five cases that day um that we were looking at. We was looking at a road rage, an assault, a lararsson, a breaking and entering um a residence and to unfortunately we had a robbery in town. So we were looking we were looking at that. Um we do have a transparency portal that's it's at that hyperlink there. um the public facing policy like I say we do have an internal um policy and you know we can if if people you know would

want to look at our internal policy we can we can look into making that available for people to uh to look at our policy on um we're also willing you know if like I say for transparency and everything that we can do annual report or we can do it um do it monthly or bimonthly or you know, however much y'all want. But I, you know, I'd be willing to to show y'all the number of searches that we're doing, the cases that we're assisting in, and the auto findings that if I do find a mistake or I find where one of my guys messed up that I'll tell you far as it don't, you know, as long as we don't do any personnel law there. But I'm I'm willing to I'm willing to show that we're not we're not abusing this system.

I have a quick question on that. And I I I think we all know you would not abuse the system, but um you only had 68 searches that you did. Um, but if let's say there was a missing person and we that case was out there um but the missing person was from another uh state like one from Ohio. Other agencies access our data for that crime since there was a or or a case could they access ours to statewide they can't statewide but another state couldn't. Okay. Um and that's like I say we'll we'll go back through but I

um we had um we're just we're statewide search and where we can search and and agencies search for us. Now if a missing person was Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, I was just going to say now if a missing person came from here and and we entered we entered the plate then yes I mean they can that it would be put in the NCIC as a missing person and then you know that would go out be pushed out and then somebody in Ohio California if they run if if it car runs by a block camera it would hit on that correct but yes sir

so uh Chief Shorty when was it that that constraint was applied where only statewide searches where our data were only searchable state line. Here we go.

This happened to be on I was sitting there trying to think. So um back in I think actually our board meeting in December was December 10th I think when y'all kept in. Um, and we had somebody that night, I think we had two speakers come in and was talking about flop and their concerns. Um, so I went back in and the next day, um, I started looking around because, you know, we I hear just like y'all hear, just like everybody everybody has heard about, you know, the the immigration concerns, reproductive care concerns, um, as far as as these cameras are going. So I started going in and and I apologize and maybe maybe Mr. McCormack knows but I so when we first started we were we started in 2024 we were nationwide search we can search nationwide nationwide can serve trust um but as things have changed here in the country and you know continue to change either way concerns come and when concerns come we hear them you know Um, so that's what I started I started looking to see how we could could help or at least you know prohibit this use of data. Um, so when I was looking through the system, I I found that we could actually prohibit anyone from and if they did search our data, they could not use as if somebody in in Texas used our said they were searching for an immigration warrant and they went to search that now because they've put immigration into

the the search that they can't they won't see it. They wouldn't see our our data. Um now that's not to say that like I say there people do bad. We're human. I I know that and so people will um unfortunately they'll do things they shouldn't. Um but they can if if they search for for that they wouldn't see us. So, like I say, we could we changed I changed that prohibit the use and that was across nationwide for immigration and reproductive care. Um, as as things as things started going in February 2026, I went in and I removed us from participation in the nationwide search. So, now we're only limited to North Carolina sharing. Um, we only share with with North Carolina agencies and so they only North Carolina agents can search our data and we can search their data, but that anybody outside um, North Carolina cannot search um, departmental policy limits like we we've done this and I just 30-day automatic data deletion. That's that's what it is. Um, the only time and like Mr. McCormack was talking about that if we do have a criminal case that we can go in and I can I can show you in in a few slides. Um what we you know what we do save or what we can save as far as and um with evidence um our search requires and and this is originated case which is OCA um which is that incident number that everybody wants in the calls for service number which comes from the county. the offense type, which is whatever crime it is, and the reason for search. Um, the offense type could be a breaking in into a house. And the reason search I could put in um would be for a suspect vehicle or

it could be a stolen vehicle. If they got in, got the got the person's keys to their car, then I could search. That would be my reason is a stolen vehicle up under that u breaking entry. Um, again, I just I'll just we don't use it for immigration enforcement, reproductive care, and we are only limited to sharing with North Carolina agencies. Um, and all of those searches inside our inside our system, what we do as a department is logged and audited and what other agencies are doing is also logged. So I know that when they go in and when some like if if Chadam County if they search their system then I can see where they they have searched our which we're part of their system would have searched our system. I think I'm about 15. Yeah, that's what I was worried about. Yeah, that's what I was worried about. All right. Slight delay here. Sorry. Okay. How we use the system, there's two ways that we use the system. It's flock alert or hit. Um, so basically that that's like I said, that's a stolen vehicle. um warn a person, Amber Alert, something um something like that goes across or goes by one of our cameras. Um the flocks system is integrated with the FBI's criminal justice information system services. That's sieges which um it manages the national crim crime information center which is NCIC and that's what we enter all our stolen property into our missing persons, wanted persons, anything like that. And that's where Flock gets their

information. Um it's once we receive that information, if we get a hit that there's a stolen vehicle that goes by, um then we will take that and the officer will will will contact communications. They will run the tag and this is where the the second or you know I call it a second party check but anyways this is where our verification comes in. They can it can run a tag and for some reason it reads the number wrong. The tag that we get from flop with the picture that they give us, we can run that tag to see if it's truly stolen. So, it may come back as a two like in one of the cases that um that was talked about earlier, but we can sit there and we can run that tag to make sure that it it's not that it's either stolen or not stolen. Um that's the way we confirm it. It's by an officer actually doing that. We don't we don't rely on Flock. we don't get a hit from Flock, go to and just fly up on this car and get out and stop this car because Flock says it's a stolen vehicle. There's checks and balances in place and that's what we do. Um, if a hit's not if the hit isn't confirmed, then we don't take any action. Um, a couple of weeks ago, we had a car of someone that lives here in town. Um, they work I guess in Durham County. Anyways, their car was stolen from work overnight. The car was entered by either Durham City or Durham County. Um, it was entered in and stolen about 3:00 that morning. At some point in time, the vehicle was found. I think like nine or 10 o'clock

that six hours later was found and returned to the owner or to the victim that had the car. That afternoon when the person's coming home, they drove by one of the flock cameras and we got hit of a stolen vehicle. Our officers done exactly what they were supposed to do. We got the hit, we ran the tag, the tag did not come back stolen. So then we were like, "Well, what in the world?" So, and then come to find out when we started tracking down what had happened was this is what had happened. Um, now Mr. Point, I don't know when I guess flock updates at later at night or if it does at midnight or but anyway, so that the system hadn't updated, but our officers done what they were supposed to do and were able to verify that this car was not stolen. So, we did not get out and deal with um deal with this. The second way we use it is with investigation search. That's if we if we've had um some kind of crime that we go in and we can search a vehicle. All right. So, this we can either search a license plate or partial plate. Again, it takes a offense type, OCA, or uh call service number, and a reason why we're searching. Um, we can search for a vehicle make, color, a top rack, back rack, window, and bumper stickers. It it the the system cannot read the bumper stickers. All I can do is say that I've got a white Chevrolet Tahoe that's got three or got a bumper sticker on the back window. I cannot I cannot type in or it did not read I love mom. So we have no idea what that bumper sticker says. I do know it's a bumper sticker on that car. You know if if we

have a witness that that can narrow down if if I go in and we have 10 white Chevrolet Taho that I'm looking for. If I could go in and say, if a witness can tell me that it had a back rack on it and had a window sticker, then I can narrow that down. And all of this, the information that's on here helps us to keep narrowing it down instead of me going and searching for if 10 white Taho pull up in Pittsburgh. Me having to run everybody's license plate until I find, you know, actually find a true suspect that I can narrow that down. And that is one reason um or one thing that I think when people are talking about block using our data um to make their service better. They're like any company they're trying to make their service better. If they can sit there and narrow help me to narrow down if their search window and can help me narrow down my search window, then I don't have to go out and and search 10 vehicles. I'm searching one vehicle. So I the better they can get at the system, the better I think it makes us to where we're not running more tags than we have to that we're not we're not looking at everybody's everybody else's system. um we select the camera network um that we're looking for which will you know would be ours and again the time frames limit and again we're not you know like I said searches are not for immigration enforcement or reproductive care and this is what we get I did I I ran this tag so this is this is on Northwood Boulevard at 15 this is the information that we get. This is the the picture that we get and this is the information if I pull up an institution in investigative summary.

Nowhere on there other than what that car says tells me that it belongs to the town of Pittsburgh block has no idea who that vehicle belongs to.

But the the signature in the bottom right corner, what is what is that, Chief? That is a disclaimer that um and I would yeah that's what and I'm sorry but it's if well I hate to say guess but what I what I think that it is is and I've had these with search warrants that I've done with with ATM videos or bank sur or surveillance photograph that basically They're saying that, hey, this picture does not, you know, does not say that this person's guilty of what I it's legal ease as far as

they're not saying that this is a suspect vehicle that I'm looking for. Okay. I can get y'all the I I can print another one out and I can get y'all the verbage that doesn't say anything about this cannot be used in a court of law. that it just it just says that like I said that it's that they can't it says something that like the information contained there is true and correct of their knowledge, right? And that's it's a legal ease on the like like I say on ATM that they're sitting there saying that this is this is the time and what you gave me and I cannot sit there and say that this is old sticker in the records with whom flock

flock. Okay. So, Michael Gold sticker who signed this is with Flock. Yes. Yeah. He's our chief council council. I told you it was League of Leg. But anyways, I can get y'all like that. I can get y'all the I can get you the the verbiage that it says out the bottom. It's on our website. I'm ass. No, it's not on our website. It's on your website. Is it? You can view it if you like if you zoom into the PDF on the presentation, you can.

Okay. So,

so like I say, so what we have to do, like I say, this is there's nothing up here that says this vehicle belongs to the town of Pit. Um, so what we have to do as a department, as an officer, is take that information and and run the tag. And I can tell you now that and it's just like I on on this next slide. I can't tell you whether this vehicle goes straight, turns left, turns right, what it does. This is just a picture in time of when it when it took the picture. Um, and like I say, this is from every vehicle we get. It's we get the rear of the vehicle. There's no pictures of occupants. Um, every every vehicle that I've looked at that you can't tell how many people's inside that car. Um, this, like I say, the system does not provide continuous tracking. It just captures that uh vehicle as it goes by. Um there's no personal identification information collected on that because like I say that that is something that we have to run through DCI or through through our system um here and like I said the vehicle's information is not retrieved it's retrieved through DCI not from flock um there was a question about about in-house uh cost versus the flock system. Um, as you can see here, from September 23 to January 2026, um, we spend well over or almost $73,000. Um, that includes the use of the cameras, the installation fees, and the taxes. Um, each camera right now is is $3,750 per year. Um, we have nine cameras, so that comes out to $33,750. Um, and each installation cost was $650

per camera. Um, and that was a onetime uh fee. If we do move it, then, you know, we would have to pay to um if we decided to move a camera to a different location, we would have to have to pay for that. Um, you just said um if you had to move cameras, you pay we'd pay for the installation. Are there plans to move cameras or install more cameras or be adding to the Do you have plans or desires to expand the flock network in town? If it was up to me, I'll get more cameras. And is there a number?

You don't. You could get back to Yeah. I don't Yeah, like I said, I budget year. It's a tight budget year. Well, that's why they're not in this uh this budget either. Yeah.

Um, so but anyway, you know, that that depends on on what y'all decide. So, um, I contacted Robert because he's a heck of a lot smarter at computers than I am. He put me in contact with, uh, with a company that that does, uh, security uh, video systems. Um, they got back with me and this these are ballpark figures. I mean, that was the biggest thing is, you know, it's it's hard to say how much this would cost without actually going out and looking and and getting down into the weeds with it. Um, using a platform like I think Motor I think a Vigilon or Motorola just bought out a vigilon. So that's um but anyways a Motorola Vigilon system or Maricotta um with in-house storage um like I said the estimated cost and like I said these are all ballpark figures anywhere from 130 to $150,000 and this this would be to replace our nine cameras. So this is at a a nine camera um cost. Um annual projected cost uh he said anywhere from 11 to $15,000 a year. we would be um we would own the hardware and we would have the expense of upkeep, upgrading and whatever storage that we decided um to do with that. I did check after um after I put this presentation together. I went back and and I did ask um I can't anyway I asked him I sent him an email and just asked because technology changes so quick. So that's like with flock. If the if the cameras get damaged, if if they um something happens to them quit working, technology gets better. Um then they, you know, they replace the they replace the cameras on this in-house

system. as technology improves or as the cameras um and something happen with them, then we're on we're in char or you know we're on the hook for replacing those. Um he said looking and like I said there's all ballpark. Um it ends up being like 8 to u little over 15,000 um per location the per location. the camera only replacement. He said depending on what camera you got, um it could be anywhere from 2500 to $5,000.

So that's like I said, that would be another another thought that we'd have to have is down the road. How long do we think, you know, if the cameras would last and then look to replace those cameras in the future? Um, so then Commissioner Hunzicker um sent me um a list of concerns and questions and and um that she had gathered um and that you know some of these that I I'd heard myself. Um our cameras do not have capability not used for facial recognition. Um we don't that that's something that we're not not doing. Um the Flock Nova platform and this is what I found on the website and Mr. McCormack if you can help me out with this if if I stray from it. Um basically it's a unified system that that connects our record management system or our in-house um police pack is what what we have. of the software police pack. Um a computer aed dispatch if we did have it. Um our license plate reader information and any approved open sources um into one system. So basically now I can go out and if I'm investigating a crime, I can if I develop a suspect, run a tag, then I can do that. Then I can come back and I can run them through our in-house system. Um, I can contact if the person doesn't live here, I can contact the agency they're at, um, to get information from them. Um, I can look at state systems as far as CJ leads and other systems that we have access to. Um, and the open source, I mean, I can, you know, one of the best things is Google. You can Google people, you can find things out. Um, you know, unfortunately, we're all out there for

the world to see. Um, but anyways, I can instead of this Nova platform being one system, it would just take me more clicks of a of a mouse to get, you know, information that that I would try to get. Um, I did not find where it uses facial recognition. Um, and again, like I said, we do not we don't have this system. Um, there's a question as far as a fusion center. Um, so I had to get clarification from that from Commissioner Unzicker. And it's basically the what they were refer what she was talking about or um that was asking about is a North Carolina information and sharing analysis center or NCSA is what we call it. It's it's handled through the uh FBI, North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation. And basically, it connects federal, state, and lo and and local law enforcement. Basically, where we can share information, and that is one of the big things that I've heard in 32 years that law enforce, you know, we I get upset at that as a law enforcement officer. the community gets upset at that because we're not sharing information, you know, that that they think that I should know what's happening two or three agencies away. But that the NC Isaac is is something that like I say if we have an officer safety bulletin or we have a crime spree then we can we can make a bulletin up to send that to them to where they send it out to where you know it may be that more county is having the same type of crimes we're having and we can that can put them in contact with each other or put them in contact with um with each other. So basically it's just a it's just a sharing information center is what it is. Um administrative subpoenas that's been brought up. Um again and I'd asked Mr.

McCormack about this but our town owns and controls our data. Um if Flock receives a legal document then Flock directs that sender or request to to us. We are the customer. We're the ones that own that data. Um if the sender requesttor objected to um to contacting us then PL would work uh directly with our customers legal team Mr. Messi and to address uh address a request um and I am not aware of any requests that we've had for any of our data from the federal government. Um so I I don't know of any administrative subpoena since we've had the system that's come in. Um another sticking point uh has been the perpetual use of data in the contract. Um basically the customer gives flock the right or we give flock the right to use and distribute um anomized data to improve their services. Again some people you know some people have you know have concerns about that. again if the data that we're providing them is deleted in 30 days so it's gone but they can use that to improve their services then I you know to me I think they they should be able to use it I mean that that's just like any other it's anything we have it's your phone your computer anything you have a problem with they're they're gathering data from you to try to make their services better. Businesses across the world are trying to take the data that they gather or the d the service they provide their customers and are trying to do better than they did yesterday. Um and up under that you know flock states that the that does not grant them ownership in permit them to sell or create any new rights regarding our our

data. Um, so like I said, the the perpetual use of it, um, I know, you know, there's a camp that says perpetual use is forever and a day. The way I interpret that is perpetual use is they are they are using our dad until up until the time we say we don't want to be friends no more and you know that we don't that we don't want their services. That's that's the way I interpret it. But I know other people interpret perpetual uses like I say that they're just they're keeping our data forever. But to me, they're just using our data as as long as perpetually as we are customers. Fourth Amendment violation. I you know I that's been a that's been a question and that's been a concern and I do understand that. Um, as of today, right now, state federal courts have concluded that the use of license plate riders do not violate the Fourth Amendment. That may change tomorrow. That may change next month, that may change next year. If it changes and these cameras are in violation of the Fourth Amendment, then they all go away anyway. Um, I'm not going to I'm not going to sit there and violate the Constitution. Um, again, the camera takes a picture in time and does not follow them. And that's, you know, that's the that's the point that um that some people make that um that they are that they follow the cameras can can lead or they can follow you around around town or through your day. um vehicles are in the public. So, you know, because they're in the public and they're on a public road, there's no

right to privacy as far as your license plate. Now, I know that rubs some people the wrong way, and I I understand that. Um but right now, like I say, the the the courts have said that this is not a violation. Um and and I did I reference to Schmidt versus City of Nor. Um like I said, they had 176 block cameras. Um they've got two plaintiffs where one vehicle was recorded 475 times and the other one was 325 times. Um that the pictures were taken. Um and you know the presiding judge in that case said that did not that the plans could not demonstrate the fly cameras were capable of tracking the whole of a person's movements. Um and that's you know that that's where the thing is and and that's where you know that the the bright line of where where that stops has not been I guess decided if you want to say has not been decided yet. Um and the plan is due plan appeal to the full circuit court of appeals. So we'll you know we'll see where where it goes from where that goes from there. um civil liberty that that's like I say we I want to make sure that we're we're protecting everybody that we can. I mean I I don't want to violate anybody's civil liberty. Um there's no facial recognition on this, no biometric data collected. Um there's no tracking of individuals. Um the data is limited to vehicles in public space. And um the data retention for the state in inside North Carolina General Statute 20-183.30 through 20-183.33 um is 90 days for license plate readers. Um but ours is I say our system is 30

days. So that's our retention is 30 days. So we're we're two months shorter than than what the state says that that we're allowed allowed to do. some cases solved by FL. Um we had a missing person from Ohio. Um he was missing 11 days before being found here. Um he had come in. He had actually was going to Kentucky Fried Chicken one night and went by the camera and was found. Like I say, he had been missing for them days and if we didn't have that camera then I mean he wouldn't have been found then. Um we our case our flock help to solve a person that was miss person from solid city. Um we had additionally hit by a vehicle in Lowe's home improvement and that we were able to use the flock cameras to solve that crime. Um we had a person having a medical episode. They were found with a child able to get the needed medical care through the use of our flock cameras. Um people always focus on well these you know are solving crimes and um that no crimes happen here and um that it's it's not worth it. But those those top four there, I mean, I you know, that's as far, you know, how do you put a price on finding those folks or getting that getting that person to medical the medical need um they have? Um we had two suspects that were involved in B&Es and motor vehicles. um financial problem with cases from anywhere from all the way from Florida to Virginia that we were able to um to solve that were they were actually staying here in town. Um so we was able to help clear up cases from all up and down the east coast. Um we assisted in verifying information in

the sexual assault case. Um we had assault by pointing a gun case at Lowe's Foods. Um that person they came in and and got into a confrontation with somebody inside of uh inside of Lowe's foods and pulled a gun on the on the person that they got involved in in Lowe's foods. So, we were able to go back and within four hours was able to identify the person that pulled the gun on on and and take a warrant out on that person because of um because of this. Um, we also, um, some of y'all, you know, I'm sure that, um, the case that we had Friday with the human trafficking and the, um, unlicensed massage spa case, we were able to help use that with, uh, with the help of law to be able to to help get enough um, start getting evidence and gather evidence to uh, to charge the the charge. Um, so these are, you know, it's not just we're looking for every stolen car or um coming through town. These are, you know, these are are cases against people that we're also solving with these um that's helping us. I wish I put these on the side because anyways, I'm going to start on the on my right or I'll get y'all's right to the incident status. Um we had 72 so we looked up and and um we've had 72 incidents 72 cases that we've used flock for. Um I will talk to y'all about the So over on though we've got the close for arrest which you know that's if we arrest somebody out of it. Um close by

exception or other means that um that has some different connotations to it. um one of those if if the uh the victim refuses to cooperate sometimes that we um we go in and we're able to identify a suspect or maybe we're not and the victim, you know, decides that they want to either drop the case or that, you know, basically they just they needed a um a case number for insurance purposes, but anyways, that they decided to uh to drop that. Um, sometimes the district attorney um decides not to prosecute. Um, I I've seen that happen where um if we have a suspect that's charged in multiple counties, multiple jurisdictions that the DA's office may decide not to prosecute here because they're being prosecuted in Lee County or Orange County. Um, so that you know sometimes that they are they're not prosecuted here, but they will that's the way we close it out. Um this also happens with juvenile offenders where um sometimes that they we have to close it out. We can't we're not arresting the juveniles but we've solved the case but the only thing we can do is a juvenile petition or refer them to some um court or court um issued therapy. So we're not like I said we're not charging um not arresting a juvenile. So that's that's a way that that gets closed or we just don't have enough information the case goes closed and we have to close it. Um that's basically what it is. Um then back on on my left the types of incidents cleared by block. Um we had 37 incidents were cleared and that that runs the gamut of the cases that we saw um that we were closed. Um so basically we were um out of those

72 we had we were able to close 37. So just a little over 51% of those um those cases. How's that compare to your other clearance rate?

Um all well up and down the board we're able to that's a little bit I mean it's a little bit higher. Um, I mean, because it's, you know, luckily we had the cameras, we had evidence, we're able to, um, to gather because a lot of times we just don't have, we have the crimes, but we don't have the evidence um or the leads that we need to try and try to follow those up. Um, this goes I I went back through um and I looked at um at incidents that we had. Now this I will say that this the 72 up under the January 24 to December 25 and this is different than that 72 over there. So like I said this is just a totally different um different number different slide on that. Um but before before the um before the camera installation where we have cameras at now um we had 80 83 and after our camera inst and installation um we dropped down to 70 uh 72 um total crimes there. Um they and what we looked at there was like I said the motor vehicle theft launching from motor vehicles and B& motor vehicles. Um like I said that's that's been one thing that you know people have been focused on. Um I did go back and look and from 2023 to 2024 um we did have the lararseny for motor vehicles and being into motor vehicles. They they did go down um across the across the uh town 25%. Um and then motor vehicle theft went down uh 14.3%. And then in 2024 to 2025 um Larson for motor vehicles and um

being in motor vehicles that remained unchanged. It pretty much remained flat. And this is this is going across town. So this is not just these. This is what we're seeing um all over town. Um and then the motor vehicle theft um it went up 33%. Um but we had a total of eight and seven of those were where we didn't have counters. Um so that like I said that um it you know goes up and goes down. So this was when I looked at this. So basically we went in from January 1st of 2022 to December 2023. Um we had 67% of incidents where we had cameras. 33% of those were um in other areas. Fast forward to January 2024 um to December 2025, those numbers pretty much swapped. Um so we we went from we went to 63% in area of of crimes that in areas we didn't have cameras and dropped to 37% um where we do have cameras. So now that that it was dropped. Now, whether that was flock or not, you know, did I like to say it was? I'm not, you know, I'm not going to uh I'm not going to say that was all of it, but it has to be to me that has to be some type of insurance. Um, so with that, any more questions?

The board have questions for Chief Johnson? Have any questions? But I do want to thank you for such a thorough um this is an incredible presentation and thank you. And I also want to um thank you and the department for um listening to the public back in December in February and taking those steps um that you took um regarding the two comments in December with immigration and reproductive rights and handling that and then again in February. And also thank you for answering all the questions from um that community event. Just great job. Thank you.

All right. Um well, I just I just I want to say and then I'll I'll get out of here. Um you know, I' I've been working here, 15 years. I've been in law enforcement 32 years. I've lived here all my life. Um and one thing that I'm going to do is going to make sure we're going to take care of these citizens here in town. Um, you know, I I grew up here. The only time that I wasn't here is when I was working in solar or when I was in college. I saw this town go from closing up 12:00 on Saturdays and Wednesdays to, you know, where it is now. And I sure don't grudge the growth because it's been great. Um, I used to when I first started in 1994, we could about me and all the guys I worked with, we could about tell you who was breaking into stuff or who was who was committing the crimes. And that has totally changed from what it was. Um, unfortunately now, at least here in town, I can't speak for the county, we have more people coming from out of town to come and do bad here than we do people that live here. Um, that's the people that we are trying to I won't say stop. Lord help I wish I could stop disc.

There you go. Discourage. But I that's that's what we are. That's what I want for these cameras. Um, I want to sit there and and like I say, I want to do everything that we can. um that if something does happen that we have the tools that we need to solve the case because the only case that we're the most important case that we're working on is the case that that someone that we're facing. Um and that is and and we're willing I'm willing um to do what we have to do. Um like I' I've heard what people have said. I've heard what y'all said. Um, and I want to make sure, like I say, that we will, um, continue to do the right thing for my department, for my town, and for my citizens. Thank y'all.

Thank you. Thank you, Chief John. Appreciate that. We will take a 14minute recess and start back promptly at 8:00 Yeah, Thank

All right, we are back in session. Up next, we have an annexation petition for Chattam Community Church, A202506, PB25678. I'll take a motion to go into the public hearing. So moved. Thank you, Commissioner Foley. Second. Second, Commissioner Frell. All those in favor say I. I. Hey, good evening everyone. The applicant Rachel on behalf of the county church

is seeking a voluntary annexation for this property located east of Sanford Road and south of Monor Pittsboro Road. The parcel is 5.076 acres and is currently subconultural. Can you staff recommends approval of this annexation petition? Happy to answer any questions. Thank you. Are there any questions?

Um I I just I just want to um confirm that the church does own the property. We've gotten some public comments in and I just want to confirm that they now own the property and that um we're not setting any uh precedents for approval without ownership. And um also um could you just confirm for me what annexation allows them to do versus what it doesn't allow them to do?

Sure thing. So um the applicant is here to confirm but as of March 5th there was a recorded deed for this part for this parcel. So I can have them confirm after I answer the other questions if that's okay. Um to answer your your second question, moving forward, um staff is going to be um working on process uh procedures with the annexation process to ensure that uh this moving forward is more thoroughly reviewed and and doesn't become a precedent. So um this is not a precedent moving forward. Thank you.

Yes. And for um the third question um because this so this parcel is currently in our ETJ and in order for future development to occur um for services water sewer uh this property would have to annex into the town's corporate limits. Um so at some point before uh the approval of the construction drawings we would want to see this process. Great. Thank you. Thank you. We have one person signed up to speak at the public hearing, uh, Rachel Matthews.

Thank you, Mayor Shook and members. Champ Community Church has been um serving residents of Pittsburgh and the surrounding areas for 20 years and has been renting space in Pittsburgh for worship services and community service initiatives for about 10 years. We are blessed to have recently purchased property to to build a permanent church location here in Pittsburgh. So yes, we did close to answer your question. We closed in early February. Um I want to thank the Pittsboro planning department for their guidance in the annexation process and for uh the recommendation to you to approve the annexation request. I thank the board for consideration request and expect request board approval. Thank you. Thank you.

Any questions? Questions for the applicant? Thank you. I'll take a motion to close the public hearing. So move. Thank you, Commissioner Frell. Is there a second? Second. Thank you, Commissioner Huner. All those in favor say I. I. Any other questions or discussions? Okay. Uh we make a motion to go ahead and approve this annexation. Yes.

Like to make a motion to go ahead approval annexation for this partial don't have partial number but the uh Oh, okay. I'm sorry I'm on the wrong paper. Motion to adopt the ordinance. Sorry. Make a motion to adopt the ordinances in the agenda package. Thank you. Is there a second? Second. Thank you, Commissioner Bonnets. All those in favor say I.

I. Any opposed? All right. Thank you. Up next, we have a public hearing for PB25624 WLET Track Major Residential Subdivision Preliminary Plat. I'll take a motion to go into public hearing. So moved. Thank you, Commissioner Bonitz. Second. Second. Thank you, Commissioner Thurber. All those in favor say I.

I. As mentioned, this is the major subdivision preliminary plat 25624 for WMLE tract. The applicant child and Park Investors LLC is requesting a major subdivision preliminary plat for a proposed 408 residential units. The associated conditional zoning PB 24509 was approved and adopted in January 2025. The proposed development is subject to the conditional zoning as well as the requirements and standards within the town's unified development ordinance. Uh so moving forward, please note that the arrow at the bottom right hand corner represents the true north direction. Uh this orientation applies to all of the slides. The reasoning case was approved for approximately 122.5 acres and this preliminary plat proposes a total project area of approximately 99.55 acres with a proposed density of 4.11 dwelling units per acre. The proposed development is adjacent to Highway 64 which is on the left side north uh north business 64 on the right side east of Chhattam Parkway and west of Eubanks Road. The development is consistent with the traditional neighborhood infill land use map designation. The applicant is proposing 112 town homes and 296 single family lots. Please see page two of the staff report for additional proposed development standards. The dimensional and intensity standards uh table on page three report include the minimum lot area lot width setbacks proposed with the approved conditional zoning. The major subdivision preliminary plat meets these requirements. The development will have sewer and water from Tri River Water. Tri River

Water will approve the utility plans during the construction drawing phase. The development is meeting the minimum open space requirements and the overall landscaping will be approved at the construction drawing phase. The public recreation requirement will be met with a fee and loo amount at the current rate of 4750 per dwelling unit to be paid at the time of final plat. This subdivision is proposing access from Old Providence Way and Oak Lawn Avenue. There is also a stub street provided to the east. The project will provide a 10-ft multi-use path with a 20- foot easement, 5-ft sidewalks on both sides of the internal streets, and approximately 4,270 linear foot page public greenway trail. The TIA has been reviewed, and per the requirements in the TIA, north and southbound turn lanes on Chattam Parkway will be installed. The TIA traffic impacts on page six of the staff report include a list of the recommendations. The Walmo track major subdivision preliminary plat is consistent with the town's comprehensive plan. Planning board heard this item at their March 16th meeting and unanimously recommended approval. Planning staff recommends approval of PB25624 WLE track major subdivision preliminary plat. I'm happy to answer any immediate questions. If you had any questions for the applicant, they're also here.

Oh, I do have a question. Um before we get into the approval thing, could you um answer some process questions for me? Can you confirm the process um is by right, it's administrative and but our process in our UDO is legislative. I'm a little confused on on that part. So based on the unified development ordinance as it stands, the preliminary plan process is through a legislative consideration which then gives the advisory board and then board of commissioners final approval on it. Um however from a process perspective at least planning perspective by the time this gets to you planning staff and other um reviewing staff as in our engineers our technical review committee Chattam County Tri River and CD dot um most of the items such as conditions in the resoning case if it's applicable our unified development ordinance engineering specifications cons comprehensive plans other types of staff related um process and procedure documents have already been in review and basically we're ready for approval of this. We're just waiting on the board's recommendation because it does have a legislative consideration as part of the unified development ordinance as it currently stands.

And about how much time per preliminary plat is staff spending before bringing it to the board. That's a great question. And if it's okay, I would ask our uh development services director to add to that since she does review um staff hours.

For the overall process, staff hours, you're looking about 240 to 280 hours. And about 80 hours of that is to get it to the board after it's gone through the entire approval process. presentation, documentation, approval steps going through the process, the presentation here, staff's time here, all that's included. So, it adds 80 hours for this piece itself. Um, would it be advisable that we revise the video to match um administrative and not bring the preliminary plat?

I think that it might be worth discussing with the board. Obviously, it's your direction and your determination since right now it currently is a legislative consideration. Um, it I would, you know, give it up to your direction, but it's something that staff is is willing to evaluate, research, and determine with the UDO amendment if it is staff administrative and what that process looks like. Um, I don't know if that answers your question or if you need more information.

And, um, I just have one final question. Um last time um Commissioner Thurber asked a question like like at what point can we recommend anything and kind of we can't so could you where do we make recommendations and Sure. That's and that's a great question. So typically at the conditional zoning the resoning process when staff and the applicant re um when staff reviews the conditions that the applicant proposes we obviously will review it for certain standards on a case- by case situation depending on what it's adjacent to what are any environmental impacts or restrictions etc etc and um when the board is in review of it that is at the time where you'll be making a recommendation or suggestions or um ask for additional um conditions and that is up to the board since this is a legislative consideration to ask for that. So around that time if there's anything extra from a transportation or site related element that you would like to see moving forward that's when staff at the development stage would review those approved conditions and ensure that is part of the process of being met if that makes sense. And I'm happy to clarify.

Thanks. Can we can can you give me can you give us an example of that? Let's say we have a uh a 20 acre site uh in the town of Pittsburgh uh and we have uh a developer who wants to follow the rules and instructions. Where is the board in that loop from a resoning perspective? or from a general perspective. From a general perspective, let's go there first. Well, obviously it would Are we kept in the loop?

Um, and to add I can have mage jump in as well, but um typically for a reasonzoning that is uh where you'll be getting it on the packet. So, if it's if it's a week before presentation, correct? It's the first time that you reach out to us. if it's part of a reasonzoning process, if it's permitted by rights, um as in it's it's meeting the current zoning district, so it wouldn't have to go through a legislative procedure. Uh that would be more administrative staff staff would review and you wouldn't see that till a packet at this time. So it would be about the same same situation, but it would be up to the board, I think, you know, how

to reach out to the staff and say what's coming up. I think there could be more communication and obviously internal discussion related to how the board is notified of the process. Um but I I would let me jump into if I can make a suggestion here. We're in a public hearing for a specific preliminary plat. So well it was mentioned it was mentioned by I understand. Um I would just like to close the public hearing do this and then continue the discussion. Um, okay. Right now is

um is there any other items about this preliminary plat on the board? Okay, I'll take a motion to close public hearing there. There's no one from the public sign up to speak. Uh I will take a motion to move public hearing. Thank you, Commissioner Foley. Second. Second, Commissioner Bonnets. All those in favor say I. I. I. Are there any other questions about this plat?

Okay. Um I'll take see uh I'll take a motion to approve uh motion to approve the subject major subdivision preliminary plat substit to inclusion of sidewalks on both sides of the road parkland and the preservation of greenways in accordance with the unified development ordinance and pittsboro parks and recreation master plan. That's a mouthful. So moved. Thank you, Commissioner Foley.

Commissioner Huner, any other discussion? The only thing that I'll offer in discussion is uh gratitude commissioner Huner for raising this question of um board legislative oversight of preliminary plat um and the example that I'll offer is as this comes to the board despite the fact that I know it's preliminary plot and this is basically a moot issue I am drawn to ask where is the commercial. When I see 400 plus units uh in a neighborhood, I want to know where I can get a cup of coffee. I want to know where I can get groceries uh within walking distance. Um but recognizing that that's moot, I'm going to set that aside and call the question.

Okay. Uh all those in favor say I. I. I any opposed? All right. All right. Let's go back to preliminary blat answer your question. I would like uh their development service director to potentially add um to that.

So we are currently revising the applications checklist and processes that we already have. This is one of them that sits dead center. So between the reszoning the preliminary apply and then the CD session there is the this is the first one the the conditional reszoning and then how it meets the current UDO or if there are items not in the UDO we have to do the updates to the UDO to give the two options. So the level service for the roads whether or not the correct lighting those are items right now they're not fully covered. So we would say in the conditional zone, those gives you actual options and items that would have to be addressed if they already have not done that. So those are examples of items that would actually be on your list right now. But if we update the UVO, you already you're working through that process with us as your staff. We can make the modifications so they're already there as well. So that everybody has to answer to those items, not just the conditional reszoning. So there's there's two pieces to that. and say kind of address your question. Um, you know, staff can definitely have internal discussion on more of the process of how the board is is notified or can be notified. I obviously I don't think we've had some discussion on that piece of it, but um, we're happy to look into that process if that is the direction the board would like to go. I just didn't want you to think I was ignoring your question, sir.

No, thank you for reading it. I I do feel that a week to make a decision is problematic and it's not democratic and I feel we as a board are placed in positions sometimes uh to to absolutely trust you which I which I do but uh I am also responsible to the people I live with and the people I see every day and so uh as much information and time that I have is appreciated. So keep us keep me in the loop.

Definitely, sir. Well, we'll have some more internal discussion about general for that. So then I'm I'm thinking that maybe there isn't even a need for a motion to urge staff to look carefully at this question of whether or not our UDO should continue to have preliminary plots coming to the board. Uh I think you've heard us. I think you've heard at least three of us expressing concern about that. Perhaps you can uh bring up presentation with the next UDO packet or the one after that after staff figure out what what you'd like prefer to do.

Definitely definitely at the direction of the board. Um, but I would say that if that is something that you would like for us to investigate, it will take some time to do some research and evaluate maybe the precedent of how other jurisdictions and municipalities have went through this process since, you know, this isn't probably the only time this question has come up, right? So, I think giving staff some ability to look into this, um, work with other internal staff as well as our leadership and our town attorney to provide us a direction. And then ultimately we're going to have to in general as as May mentioned work on our updating our applications and our schedules to reflect that and to determine if there's any overlap on other other things. So I would I would like to just add into that. So that is a motion or a direction to give staff some availability on that timing. So I wasn't sure if there was a specific time you'd like to see it, but I just wanted to give you that information upfront. The other thing I just want to point out is that this board meets once a month and uh I feel strongly that it should be twice a month uh as most all municipalities do and that's that's of course of course that's a vote for the board to consider not you but I just want to point out that once a month in my opinion is not sufficient. Mr. Foley, I appreciate you raising that issue and it's a concern that I've been pondering myself because uh it feels like the workload is really increasing again and um I did not enjoy 7-hour board meetings and six-hour board meetings and um I hope we can avoid those with perhaps

adding in some additional meetings. Um, and I guess in any in any given instance, it's this board's discretion if we care to continue a meeting. Um, because we're just feeling like it's too late in the evening and we're not thinking clearly and we want to be better collected to make better decisions. Yes, I believe that we can do that.

Thank you. uh given our current bylaws and and rules um we would simply have to state the date to which it was continued um and all be in agreement that we can get together for that second portion of the meeting. Am I correct in understanding that? Yes, sir. Yeah. And I appreciate that because it's not just us who are up. It's staff that's up late. public who's here sometimes very late who also may want to be part of the process. So I thank you for that. We're here for the public. We're not here for us. Thank you.

Pontificating. I'm sorry, but thank you. Okay. Up next on the agenda is a reszoning case, a public hearing for PB 2 5 uh 345 for property. I'll take a motion to go into public hearing. So moved. Thank you, Commissioner Foley. Second, Commissioner Vance. All those in favor say I. I.

All right. Hello again. So, as mentioned, this is reszoning case PB25345, Cooper Property Reszoning. This subject property is approximately 74.48 acres and is located south and west of Pow Place subdivision and Old Rock Springs Cemetery Road and adjacent to Rock Springs Baptist Cemetery. The property is vacant and heavily vegetated. The property is currently zoned residential a agricultural. The adjacent zoning districts are to the north and east mixeduse plan development district, the south residential agricultural and the west residential agricultural and mixeduse planned development district. The applicant is proposing to reszone the proposed property to multifamily residential conditional zoning. The intent of the multifamily residential district and the UDO is to accommodate moderate to high density residential development including single family on smaller lots, duplexes, and town home dwellings. The district is considered appropriate near existing mixeduse residential areas and activity centers. The LAN use map classifies the subject property as traditional neighborhood infill. The proposed resoning to multifamily residential conditional zoning is consistent with that classification. The applicant conducted a community meeting on May 28th, 2025. The community meeting report is attached in the packet. A full list of the proposed uses, lot standards, and setbacks can be found on page two of the staff report. The proposed uses include residential

uses such as duplex, live, work, single family, and townhouse as well as community center. The applicant is proposing the maximum number of 300 residential units. A minimum of three product uses for the rear loaded town home, rear loaded single family, and front-loaded single family. No individual product shall make up more than 40% of the total number of proposed dwelling units. A TIA was approved by NC DOT that no transportation improvements are required for this project. For reference, the exhibit B as well as the attachment number seven in the packet include the recommendation section on the TIA. A full list of the proposed transportation conditions can be found on page four and five of the staff report. To summarize the conditions related to site access, number one, three access points to the site shall be made by connecting to existing street stops. A minimum of two connections to existing public streets shall be constructed prior to the 100th CO. Number two, the two street stubs are proposed for future connection. Number three, the developer shall acquire necessary rideways, construct and dedicate an extension of Old Rock Springs Cemetery Road along the southwest corner of Mary Holmes Park to the project site. And number four, construction traffic shall access the site by the proposed Old Rock Springs Cemetery Road connection. In addition to the 10- foot multi-use path, landscape screening and fencing shall be installed along the northern side of Old Rock Springs Cemetery Road extension to screen the parking area and existing park restrooms building from the proposed roadway. The development is

proposing to exceed the 20% minimum common open space requirement as well as proposes to pay a per lot fee in lie of the required amount for public recreation prior to the final plaque being recorded. The project shall construct a private linear park with adjacent on street parking within the central portion of the development as well as a multi-use path. Lastly, the project is also proposing an affordable housing condition to provide a payment of $1 million to Chattam Habitat for Humanity. Additionally, the project shall offer a minimum of 5% of total units to qualified Hometown Heroes through the DRB, Hometown Heroes financing program, and the unit shall be incorporated throughout the development. Upon fulfilling the affordable housing commitments, the applicant will not provide further monetary contribution or land dedicated required for any affordable housing fees. Planning board heard this at their March 16th meeting and unanimously recommended a approval with the recommendation to revise the affordable housing condition to include municipal workers. I would like to note that after the planning board meeting, the applicant and staff discussed the the board's recommendation and the applicant willingly agreed to take the recommendation a step further by including local municipal workers as reflected on page 31 of this of your packet. Planning staff recommends approval of resoning case PB25345 Cuber property with the conditions offered by the applicant. I'll be happy to answer any immediate questions and if there aren't any, I will turn it over to the applicant and will be available for questions.

Any questions for staff? I have a couple. So, uh, Old Rock Old Rock Spring Cemetery Road, is it a a street, a Pittsboro street? So, I did discuss this with our engineering staff and it is on the POW bill for public street. Um, as far as what it currently is dedicated or recorded as, I would ask the applicant to provide information since they are doing the research for the actual project itself. But based on the POW bill, that section is public.

I was okay. I was worried I'm sorry. I was worried about that because I think at one time it was not considered a fair and I think that's been the question and obviously with with the plat there's been some recorded data as private and some as public so that's been the question um but based on my discussion with our engineering staff and you can confirm if I'm misspeaking it's on the POW bill and between two subdivisions what is the buffer zone for the by the town's rules And we're talking about the perimeter buffer. Yes.

Okay. Are we talking about like the um obviously not street front but perimeter adjacent to existing? So based on our buffer table and I can provide you the actual section for reference. uh UDF section 5.3.3 the required buffer table as it currently stands it's not there's no buffer required because it's similar land use classes either single family detached the single family detached duplex or single family attached which is town home the applicant right now is currently proposing a 30-foot type B along all basically the Powell place subdivision along the MUPD zoning stretch

between existing houses and new houses. Yes, sir. Along the property line along the park. Yes, sir. Uh we we just wouldn't have the actual buffer on the lots itself. It would be maintained by the HOA on its own meets and bounds. Yes, sir.

Um it seemed like there's a decent buffer. Could we is it possible to intensify like the density of the buffer by um by the plant, you know, the trees and plants with the hardwoods and the evergreens that are put in there. Maybe go denser to because I'm hearing a lot from people who don't want to see their neighbors in their backyard. And if we could increase the density that might say, you're asking about the opacity. So, right now it's a type B. Are you asking to potentially make it more of a type A where it's more evergreen type verse because there the the difference is on the density of the buffer is the the the buffer type not the the um I'm not the width not the not the width

so ultimately that would be up to the applicant's discretion on that question to see if that would but ultimately staff would support it if the applicant was willing to along some of that border there is some um um hydration issues, hydrarology issues. Okay. Um on Fremont Drive, Wickham um and I'm I'm ass sure that underfoot will probably address that. Do you have do you have any thing the town saw that

I can direct that to our engineering or development res um development services director since that is more in line with review. Um, but the applicant can probably add to that as well.

Good evening. Uh, Ben Schmacky, project engineer. We did look at storm water with the conceptual plan that was provided and um that kind of detail is addressed in kind of the construction drawing level uh design. But um we see that there are there is drainage. So we are looking at it closely and there may be a condition um but we have rules in our ordinance to not direct storm water into neighboring developments. So all of that will be followed and um looked at during the construction drawings. Thank you. There is a condition. Yep. Shall not exceed pre-development peak flow rates for the 25ear storm.

Well, I know that some of the residents of Pow Place are experiencing some water uh flow from that forested area. once deforested that there that'll be a hero right issue. So that's something that we need to monitor as as a town. Yes, sir. That's something that we can monitor during development stage and work with the applicant on it to ensure that

so there are uh three access points correct. Yeah. uh uh stubouts from POW place that they'll they'll be utilizing. Uh can you talk about fire department, fire safety and why we need those stepouts? Uh those three ways.

Sure. And I I um will also have the development search director add to that if necessary since that's something that she is also reviewing for with the fire chief. But I I do believe that they do need at least two points of access for the development. And based on where the connectivity is and the interconnectivity from the major public streets, it provides just an extra access to what's already existing substrates of POW place. That answers question. It does. Uh I I know those streets are relatively narrow. Is that something we're going to have to do a no parking for the fire department or not? I can't I can't really for that question.

I think so. I think that would more at the development stage if this resoning was approved. That's something that we would look at from the development itself through our review our technical review committee which our fire marshall is a part of. Um but as far as outside of the boundary, I can't speak to the sizes of it. Um but at least within the within it, yes. And I'd like to add a clarification. and I got my projects a little um mixed up. So there was a vote of five to two yes to no. So I wanted to make that for record. I confirmed with the town clerk once I read it. So I apologize for that. So it wasn't unanimous but

No, sir. I just wanted Yeah, confirmed. So the old Rock Spring Road, I'm sorry. Um Rock Creek, thank you. Um that's going to be the main entrance for all access and construction. And then the other entrances are just stuff that they will not be open until construction is complete. Is that correct?

That is correct. And then the applicant can als that might be part of their discussion, but based on planning board, that was what they they mentioned to the board is it would ultimately be through Rock Springs Cemetery Road. So, in your opinion, uh, health and safety for the town park residents will be mitigated by the fence that they're willing to build. Is that correct?

That is uh that is correct. So based on the ride ofway that's necessary for for that public street um there is a condition and I can once I get there um related to just for record is on page three of the staff report it's under the landscaping screening buffers and parking conditions section it's number four it's in addition to the multi-use path landscape screening ing and fencing will be installed along the northern side of the old Rock Springs Cemetery Road extension to screen the parking area and existing park restroom building from the proposed roadway. Existing vegetation within the buffers and open space, well, this is a little extra, but in open space areas abuing the Old Rock Springs Cemetery Road extension shall be preserved to the greatest extent practical and may include project entry monument signs potentially or other gateway enhancements as a designated as a designation of entry into the proposed community. So, to answer your question, there will be landscape screening. there's going to be a fence um along the northern side. So, it would add that little bit of a buffer. Not just

just think about this right now, but we're going to have if if this is approved, we're going to have a whole bunch of trees going down Old Rock Creek Cemetery Road right next to that park. uh we should have some contingency plans in place so that there is a safety barrier uh during that construction time as opposed to a permanent fence that you put up later but during construction it's working

sir and that was something that staff would would be reviewing obviously that would be discussions when it comes to the precon or meetings when pre pre-construction meetings there'll be some kind of potentially barricades or something discussed with the applicants, the construction uh superintendent workers. So, we will ensure that there's something. Is there anything in the town protocol that would selectively save some of those beautiful trees in the buffer zone? Can we put a yellow ribbon around some of them in the buffer zone? Is that something that we do? That's more of a town manager question or

well I as it currently stands our unified development ordinance does have very minimal tree preservation sections related to that. So unless it's within the actual buffer or open space or like tree conservation area that would be proposed depend on the site. Um there is some ability for staff to review where the tree protection is located and try to protect you know impact critical root zones.

Um and that would be something that we would review probably during site plan officially construction drawings potentially in land disturbing um application. So there is some flexibility for staff to have this um to make those kind of comments and work with the applicant on that. Okay.

Thank you. I appreciate that. And uh right now uh if you look at the plans, it says proposed road. Can you talk about what that means? And uh if that road, we're talking about the extension of Old Rock Creek Spring Cemetery Road. If if we can't get that, what's the next process? And I think that would be obviously back to internal staff discussion because there are conditions specific to having that the construction entrance what way of getting into the development. So that would require us to because it's very plainly stated in black and white that would be something that we would have to look at and potentially take it back through the resoning process to amend if there are constraints that doesn't allow us to have that flexibility with with reviewing it. So ultimately that would be going through the process again because it's pretty much black and white.

Thank you. Would the applicant like to speak? I believe they have their presentation as well. Thank you. Thank you sir.

Good evening. My name is Adam Ashb. I'm the director of planning, engineering, and entitlements at DRB Group. Before I let Landon, our design team, and introduce some of the other folks, I wanted to just take a minute to point out the tremendous amount of coordination and collaboration that's happened over the last year. really starting with the neighborhood meeting, the feedback that we got from the adjacent property owners, taking some of that information specifically for things like traffic, going back and working with town staff, working with the town manager, the mayor himself. We went out there and realizing that there wasn't an existing rightway for Old Rock Springs Cemetery Road. We took a look at that. We took a look at what the um the location of the fairly new um shelter and restroom facility was and could we make a an alignment even work through there. And so fortunately again we had this um we had this extensive amount of collaboration. We worked with the neighbors, the town staff. We've worked with Tri River on things like utility availability, things like that. and and as mentioned in one of our conditions, we've also were able to find that the Habitat for Humanity folks had a project where they were in need of some funding. So, enable to uh it enabled us to make a donation to help with our affordable housing commitment. Um going back to starting with the neighborhood meeting that traffic was a specific concern of people trying to utilize these three stubs that were always intended I believe to you know extend into this undeveloped property. They were always intended to be future extensions, but we understood the

concerns of the neighbors, some of the existing traffic issues that they were having. And so with the help of staff, um, we were able to then identify how we could extend Old Rock Springs Cemetery Road through the park site. to answer your question about existing trees. Of course, we'll be subject to, you know, engineering standards for curve radiuses and lengths and things like that, but happy to look at existing vegetation, save it where it's where it's available or where it's where it can be accommodated. Um, one of the other things that came out of that public hearing or the the neighborhood meeting was the buffer question. And as as Lawrence said, um we have offered um where where no buffer is required, we've offered 30 ft. We want to preserve the existing trees. So to answer your question about increasing the opacity, one of the concerns I would have with that is our desire would be to preserve as many existing trees as we can. If we start to go and try to replace that with evergreens or or denser opacity, then that would require us, I believe, to remove some of that existing vegetation. So, we feel just by by widening it, we've hopefully accomplished one of those concerns. And then storm water was another significant question that came up during the um neighborhood meeting. And through our engineer, we worked on and and with staff's help, worked on a offer to to um attenuate the not just the 10-year, which is required by your ordinance, but to step that up to a 25-y year, 100red-year storm or or 25-year storm. I I apologize. And then um let's see just to address a couple of

the questions. I think I've I've addressed some of the ones that you brought up. The existing street stubs, the storm water, the trees at the park. Um let's see. We we did our surveyor did some research. Old um Rock Springs Cemetery Road is shown as a public street, but as discussed with the town manager, we'll also have our attorney do a little more research and do a title search to make sure that that is public and that there's no issues with extending that as a public road into our development. So, with that, I'm going to turn it over to Landon Love Lace, who's the president of Underfoot Engineering. Also with me today is Amber Naidu. She is our vice president of sales and marketing. She can speak pretty intelligently about the affordable housing commitment and the hometown heroes that we're offering as a part of our sales effort. Also, Mike Stevens, our vice president of land acquisition is here with me tonight. So, with that, I'll turn it over to Landon, and we're happy to answer any questions that you have.

Thank you, Mr. Ashford.

Thank you, Adam. Good evening, Kyle, Mr. Mayor, commissioners, thank you, Lauren. Um, been a long night already, so I'll keep it very quick. Um, I I do want to just point out all the collaboration. Like Adam mentioned, we we literally sat out at the park with Katie and Jonathan and Ben and Kyle and sat next to the bathroom that Mr. Holmes had, you know, paid for to put in not long ago and said, "Well, we need a road here. How do we do this without, you know, messing up the park?" And you know, coincidentally, right off the shelter, there's all the kids playground areas, all these things. So, um, when we're offering additional screening and and fencing, things like that, there's there's been a lot of thought and a lot of collaboration. Um, I met with Commissioner Foley, met with Commissioner Bonnets, listened to, you know, not just the adjacent owners and staff's input, feedback. Um, but the level of collaboration for this project is more than any project I've worked on in 25 years. So, um, just kudos to everybody. Uh, Adam introduced the folks from DRV. They're, you know, 35 plus years as a builder. They're third largest private builder in the in the country. Uh, Underfoot's been around for almost 15 years. We've been working in Pittsburgh for almost all those 15 years. We do civil engineering, landscape architecture, and planning. Uh Lauren Lauren uh went through all of the staff presentation stuff, so I'm not going to run through a lot of this. Um I just wanted to point out a couple of the things that are um pointed out in the conditions. Um just highlights of the conditions, the the $1 million payment to Habitat. There's also a letter of support in there from Anna Tulle, who's the director of Habitat. Um, not only were we able to kind of coordinate and collaborate to make that happen, um, I'm fortunate to be the engineer that works with Habitat. So, we're we're the one that's working on that project. Um, so

there's just really good connection points everywhere. Um, in addition, you know, DRV has offered up to uh 5% up to 15 units if they are able to build 300 total um through their hometown heroes program. And Amber's here to speak about that if anybody's got any questions. um you know the offering the buffers around the entire property where none are required doing a 30-ft buffer. um the additional site entrances um not just at Old Rocking Cemetery Road, but doing subs uh to the west and to the south. Um if you if you look at a map that there's a a large chunk of property south and west of there um that ultimately in the next, you know, maybe 5 years, maybe 10, 15 years, um it it will likely be developed. So, it's setting it up for the future as well. Um the greenway that's being offered is over two times the length that is required in the parks and rec master plan. Um we had worked with staff a lot to really try to make kind of an integral uh linear park through uh you know part of what maybe I understand was a dream that the mayor had but uh maybe a waking dream. Um but just the notion of having this linear park um kind of got brought up as an idea and then we took it and started exploring and really ran with it. Um so as you as you uh look down that corridor, it's going to terminate in a in a really nice amenity that DRBO put there. We we tried to work to make that a public park. We couldn't quite physically get the dimensions that were needed to make it happen. Um but it's a it's over a 3acre park um that will be a private park. If you if you think of some of the parks in Brier Chapel that will have the path may enter through a little pocket areas with playgrounds or or benches for active and passive wreck, things like that. Um the area that's identified on the

screen is orange. That's that's kind of a a natural environmental corridor and area with some wetlands and some stream buffers. There's 20% required open space. The project is offering almost u 50% more than that. We're, you know, subject to final design, but we're about 30%. Um, Adam mentioned earlier the, you know, increasing the quantity of of storm water retention from the 10ear storm up to the 25-year storm. Um, you know, a lot of stuff with the TIA with uh we had to do a sewer analysis that ran through Tri River that was approved. Um you know this is exactly what was envisioned on the future land use map that a lot of time and effort was spent um within the last 10 years. Um this traditional neighborhood design infill that's exactly what this is. Um in addition you know helping to add a lot of infrastructure um and then making a legitimate right now difference on much needed affordable housing here. Um the habitat project is we're hopefully submitting uh maybe final round for site plan this week. So that one is coming soon. Um we're here for any other questions you have.

So thank you Landon. There are uh you remember from our conversation the top concern that I brought from what I'd heard from the neighbors was connectivity and the need for uh getting that traffic out of their their main thorough affair. So I think I'm seeing stubouts in other directions as well, like to the north, the right. Yeah. So, uh, similar to Lauren's presentation, uh, north is to the left on this plan. Mhm.

Um, so there's three existing, uh, connections at Pow Place. So, Clark's Creek and Pow Place. Uh, Pow Place is labeled is kind of hidden underneath this picture. Uh, Old Rock Springs Cemetery Road will come in here and then there will be a stub to the south and a stub to the west. Uh, two stubs to the west. West that's for future extension. Great. Thank you. I know you fought hard to get access westbound. Uh, just finding property that you could connect to old old Graham Road. Can you talk about that a little bit? Uh, yeah. and and uh

Mike Stevens with Acquisitions is here as well. And at some point I think like I mentioned if you look at a map almost everything west over to Old Graham and south um is right now it's just uh mostly rural agricultural forested land. Um they they did not have any success getting additional access out that way but I think it's probably a matter of you've planned at least two stubouts for that right process. That's very good. That will help mitigate traffic down. I have a big question for you. We talk about the traffic light that will be at the end of Old Rock Springs Cemetery Road. We need to change that name, by the way.

I didn't name it. I've gotten to abbreviating it. O RSC. There you go. Uh if the old rocks o r whatever uh cemetery cemetery road uh ends at at Hillsboro Street there needs to be a traffic light there and I know that there's discussions with development across the street on Hillsboro Street. Can you talk about that and what you're committed to do? Sure. So and and I may bring Adam back up for this. I

Yeah. speak to the development across the street, but what I can speak to is the traffic impact analysis that that DRMP has done. Um, and when they do a traffic impact analysis, they not only look at the current project that is the subject of the TIA, uh, Ben may be able or may may be able to speak to this as well. There are a number of projects that are all going on up there. Um, and DRMP happens to be the traffic consultant for most of them. So they are looking at all of those projects and they are taking not only those projects but background growth into account when they're looking at the different intersections and their TIA still does not call for signalization or improvements. It calls for nothing here there was something by staff that was noted. Yep. Come on. Uh if when we submit our first submitt of preliminary PLA, if the existing conditions that were noted in the traffic impact analysis are different than what DRMP noted in their review, then there will be some changes that need to happen to the TIA.

Yeah, just to just to clarify, um Belmont is across the street or no, Cooper Ridge, sorry, Cooper Ridge is across the street. Um they have an approved TIA with NC DOT which signalizes that intersection. Their road will be directly across from Old Rock Springs Cemetery Road. The TIA for this project um analyze that intersection as signalized because that TI has been approved. It's assumed that that development will be will be first. And so Landon's point about if that if they are first their TIA will have to be um redone and re-reviewed. So uh the assumption with this TIA and this approval is that this will be signalized by the time they they're built out.

That's what I want to hear. Thank you. Thank you, Ben. Uh any other questions? Will there be any um traffic calming? um plans or anything on the roads. I've had a lot of questions about that from people. So, what are you planning if any?

So, it's a really good question and it's one of those tough kind of catch 22s because we're talking about land use and reszoning right now, but that's more of a design. So, what there's one of the conditions was crafted that and I don't know the verbiage exactly, but it speaks to the pedestrian nature of the development. We've obviously done a lot of concept and concept grading and studying and even though this is suburban, it's it's very urban and gritted in nature and we have multiple crosssections that are shown on the resoning plan. Um so the park will have oneways on either side that will have on street parking. Um and then we have front load and rear load product. So um anything around the park is going to be rear loaded. So it all just really fronts on the park. And then um through this through the construction drawing process, we'll have um we have roads that are kind of the the main roads and then roads that are secondary roads. So we do have uh accessible access, crosswalks, stop control intersections, all these kind of things to make sure that vehicles and pedestrians are are playing well together. Thank you. You know, Landon, this is kind of like if you're on an airplane, infill is like this. Infill like what you're talking about, what you're presenting. And you've done a great job, by the way. Thank you. Sincerely. It's like on an airplane, you getting into the middle seat. And you have to be aware of so many different variables. You know, you don't want to bump elbows with the window person and the aisle person's got big legs or whatever. And uh I just want to thank you for listening and hearing the residents around. I know that it's going to be a major inconvenience for everyone, but uh you seem to have been receptive to changes and willing to uh as as a member of the affordable housing

advisory committee and a former member of Chadam County, uh hearing a million dollars for help is is exceptional. So, it is. Thank you for that. And so, yeah, thank for that. I'm just lucky to be part of our public can do that.

We have two members from the public sign up to speak for the hearing. So, uh those are Sarah and Frank. Hello, my name is Sarah FA and I live at 92 Freeman Drive in the Powell Place community. Good evening. Uh my primary appeal tonight is for no reasonzoning. I am imploring this board to not only consider land owners, developers, realy companies, and potential local government tax revenue. I ask you to consider the public's health and well-being and the property value and quality of life interests of existing town residents. The development of 50 to 60 homes on 1acre lots is already feasible under the parcel's current zoning status, but developers want to build 300 homes on 1/8 acre lots. We all know that housing density does not yield housing affordability. And I believe you concede this point by tenatively accepting the $1 million in lie of developer payment for a Habitat for Humanity community. Several hundred resident responses to the 2023 Town of Pittsburgh land use plan community survey requested environmental protection, green space conservation, and growth management. Several sitting commissioners ran on platforms to better manage Pittsburgh's growth with environmental stewardship and tree protection. I'm asking you to consider whether this parcel should be reszoned for a highdensity subdivision when town limits already include more than 1100 apartment units and annexed Chattam Park build of 22,000 detached and detached homes of diverse sizes and previously approved resoning of another Cooper family LLCowned 29 acre parcel directly across 15501 for a dense

mixeduse commercial and residential build that will include apartments. The 29 acre parcel adjoined another previously approved 154 acre tract that is projected to have more than 700 housing units including apartments because the 2024 board approved doubling the original proposed number of units. That tract is also wooded and includes the Jordan Lake wershed area. I ask, are you honoring community survey input, your election platform promises, and your stated development values if you approve the clear cutting of an additional 75 densely wooded acres for more highdensity housing? The March 2026 planning division report includes unsubstantiated sweeping conclusions that there will be no detrimental effects to the environment, wildlife habitats, or adjacent properties. Clear-cut development will eliminate a diverse wildlife habitat and mature trees that provide shade, filter community air, and buffer highway 64 and 15501 air and noise pollution for POW Place residents. Clear cutting will also exacerbate existing storm water runoff issues for abuing POW Place properties. In closing, if you do approve resoning, I'm requesting a 60-foot type F option 2 buffer for the parcel borders contiguous with approximately 45 POW place lots. A planning division traffic study for the existing PAL streets that lead to proposed internal points of egress since traffic density and speeding near the 246 sanctuary apartments already required police speed monitoring and ticketing. Third, developer funded speed tables to on Milbrook from the Palplace Place Lane traffic circle to Freeman Drive. And last, strategically placed crosswalks with pedestrian activated flashing lights on Milbrook and Palace Lane. Thank you.

Thank you.

My wife, I'm a lucky man. I don't have much to say. Um I'm going to raise more of a personal issue with this. My name is Frank Square. I live 92. Uh Mr. Foley is a is a neighbor. Uh and very sensitive to some of the issues that are up. So to begin my time, uh I would like to raise the issue of the tension between the environment and profitability. Um I use Clyde uh the owner investor group of DRB homes is part of Simtomoal Forestry Limited. I just wanted to hold that up. That is not an onshore uh investor group. Uh the intention is to make the most money for the most folks in the investment group that is offshore. Having said that to start, um, thank you for your patience with me. Sometimes life is more fun with one eye and sometimes not. Uh, I've spoken to at least three board members uh, as they've presented their election positions on the issue. I ask you that you honor the commitments you've made, of course, to our long-term town residents, to be responsible stewards of local ecology and to expand green spaces as you move forward with the consideration of resoning and annexation of now open lands at uh at least think to expand the buffer that separates our long-term residents from new construction. Uh, I'm going to skip through the rest of it because my wife covered this so well and I have a a minute and 20 seconds to beg you guys to especially consider the space between a

treatment uphill to Cobble Creek and then down uh to the park area because that's going to be especially impacted and in my opinion uh damn it you know that needs a wider buffer. There's flood problems. If you start to to clear cut in that space, provide a 30 foot or less buffer that's replanted, there will not only be wildlife issues, there's going to be water issues. That needs to be a bigger buffer. And the other area that needs to be a bigger buffer is along the uh alleyway uh which includes the town homes. They will be stripped clear. Uh there are beautiful oaks growing back there. It's crazy to cut down those damn things. And I would beg that you consider a much larger buffer for that particular space that the alleyway and runs uh 80 Freeman up to Cobble Cobble Creek and over. Thank you for listening. Appreciate your time you guys and your hard work. Thank you. Have a good night. There's no one else signed up for the public hearing. So, I'll take a motion to close the public hearing.

Actually, no. Uh, thank you, Commissioner Huner. Is there a second? Thank you, Commissioner Thurber. All those in favor say I. I. Any other discussion or questions for staff? All right. I'll take a motion to recommend approval of reszoning case PB25345 Cooper property.

I'll I'll do it. I move to What's the property again? So moved. Thank you. Thank you. Uh second, Mr. Bonnets. All those in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Thank you. Motion passes. Up next, we have a public hearing for amended development fees ordinance fiscal year 2025 2026. I'll take a motion to open the public hearing. So moved. Thank you, Commissioner Pololey. Second. Thank you everybody. Second John. All those in favor say I

mayor and commissioners. Um so we are just proposing um four edits to the current development services fee schedule. Um one of them is to

put in a fee for annexation request that was missing when it was adopted. um at the beginning of the budget year. The second one is to implement a new fee for section design plans which new with the um adoption of the small area plan. And then the second two are for a safety analysis and a minor traffic study both of which are new fees due to new applications that are offered um in our development services department. So those are the only four changes. questions. Mr. S,

you these fees obviously will be generating some revenue for the town. Are they tra traditionally u fees that other municipalities provide required? So annexation requests, yes. Um section design plan, no because that's a unique to town of Pittsburgh. Um and then I am guessing the other two are are other are also offered by other municipalities.

Uh no one has signed up for the public hearing. So I'll take a motion to close the public hearing. So moved. Commissioner Bonnets. Second. Second. Mr. Therber. All those in favor say I. I. I. And I'll take a motion to adopt the amended development fee ordinance for fiscal year 2526. So move. Thank you, Commissioner Frell. Second. Second, Commissioner Foley. All those in favor say I. I.

Motion passes. Up next, public hearing unified development ordinance text amendment ZTA 2026-01 UDO definitions update. Take a motion to go into public hearing. So moved. Thank you. Second, Mr. Huner. All those in favor say I. I. I. Good evening again.

Good evening. Um this section is to make some um additions to the definitions of 12.12 um terms and use define and amend some of the definitions that are vague and or if there's a a copy of certain items. Um the differences you will see if they are underlined that is the addition. If it is struck through that is a removal or modification. um they are directly related to specific callouts in the UDO that I have not either been identified or defined such as medium tree, large tree and now they're associated with a caliber. So there are specific items that are called out in the UDO that we do not have a definition for that could cause confusion and it goes across the UDO at this point. And there are three additional updates that come throughout the year that will include more definitions. We did not want to give you 50 pages at one time.

Thank you for staff comment. Thank you for doing this. Is there clarification was needed and I appreciate the effort you and the staff

staff has been very efficient about getting it done quickly as well. Um I I have one question in reading I I read through all this it is a great job. Um I noticed in there the homeowners association um is there anything we can put into our um when we get to the the point in our UDO or or anywhere that we bring or require homeowners associations to bring their governing documents up into current state standards. Um, I know everything was redone, but I know a lot of them are operating um and stuff from the 80s and 2000s and or 2000s. Is there any way we can bring them up and make sure that they get copies of all this so that they are also adhering to all of your changes? So, there's two items that would have to occur. We need to do research, but some of them are asis and like I said, it's we have to do the research to see if it can be. Um the other item is when we accept them now that we say that the town is the review authority and then they can add to it but they cannot like tell the town we're not going to do this item. So those those already exist and they maintain what is in their um conditional zoning, but they do not actually um have the jurisdiction to override the town.

Right. There's no one signed up for this public hearing. So I'll take a motion to close the public hearing. Before I do move, I will uh support Commissioner Huner's question and concern and interest. So, yeah. Uh so moved. Okay. Thank you. Is there a second? Uh Commissioner Foley. All those in favor say I. I. Any other questions for staff? I'll take a motion to approve the attached amendment to the unified development board in CTA 202601 as presented.

So moved. Thank you, Commissioner Bonitz. Second, Commissioner Huner. All those in favor say I. I. I. Up next, public hearing unified development ordinance text amendment ZTA 2026 02 chapter 13. I'll take a motion to go into public hearing. So moved. Mr. Bonnets. Thank you. Second. Second. Mr. Foley. All those in favor say I. I.

All those in favor of reading the book and knowing what's in the when the updates was or the copyright. This is taking what's in 13 moving it to the front so that we have the ability to tell what the most recent version of the UDO is. That includes when they bring a preliminary plaque or a plan in what the time they bring it in is they the UDO they go by. So we have to have the copies in sequence and then we have to have the most recent one base forward. And then 13 would just revert to a reserved for future update. That's it.

Any questions? No one signed up for this public hearing. So I'll take a motion to close the public hearing. Move to close the public hearing. Thank you, Commissioner Bonnets. Second. Second. Mer Foley. All those in favor say I. Take a motion to approve ZTA 20262 as presented. Move. Second. Uh thank you. Uh second by Commissioner Bonnets. All those in favor say I. I. Up next, public hearing, unified development ordinance, text amendment, ZTA 202603 plant tables. Uh, take a motion to enter public hearings.

Moved. Second, Commissioner Bonnets. All those in favor say I. I.

Um, amendment to section 5.7, the recommended invasive plant list language. Uh, there are two parts to this. One is moving the actual tables into the administrative portion um and our manual inspects because those have to be regularly updated um fairly quickly. So for example um there are a couple in there that are invasive and known to be potentially aggressive. And then there are others that we want adaptive plants that could be added to the list. So to keep from coming having a three-month process to get one item closed, it's easier to make sure that's in the specs because then we can give the recommendations forward it to forestry NCDQ and the state list so that it is current and up to date at all times. And that's part of what the language itself reads is to update to the state's regs for each individual area that they're dealing with, including forestry. How often do you update? How often do you check that there are changes or is there a bulletin that's released that you

we get a um we get a bulletin on the updates from SDQ and forestry. I have it on my my list, my milling list. Most of staff should have at least two will have that update and then we will look at it quarterly to make sure that we haven't missed anything during that time period. It'll be something regularly checking to make sure. It's kind of like the 303D list for the state. We check that every now and then as well quarterly make sure they didn't add anything or if there's been a revision.

Thank you. I I like this approach. I think it's smart. Um I would just say when we did this originally, we had coordinated with the county and used a list that they had developed. So if we can just tie back with them and you know let them know about I think this is a smart way to do it. Uh any questions for staff? No. Uh no questions. Uh applause, gratitude. Um, again, I will uh appreciate Commissioner Huner for drawing my attention to the connection between this and something that I emailed about last night, and that is the um it's it's really a tangent here, but the fact that we are a bird sanctuary city and uh the importance of these plants and using appropriate plants in support of our status as a bird sanctuary No one has signed up for this public hearing. So I'll take a motion to close the public hearing.

So move. Commissioner Ferrell. Second. Commissioner Bonnets. All those in favor say I. I. Right. I'll take a motion to approve the unified development ordinance of ZTA 202603 as presented. So moved. Second. Thank you, Commissioner Huner. Second, Commissioner Bonnets. All those in favor say I. I. Right. Up next, we have a public hearing for the unified development ordinance text amendment ZTA 2026-04 consistency. I'll take a motion to go into public hearing. So move.

Commissioner Foley second. All those in favor say I.

Last one for today. and promise of media updates. Um the update for section 1.5 addresses comprehensive plan and turns to plural plans because we have multiples with that name. So when the definitions list there is actually conc comprehensive plan and it specify each plan that we have adopted the major ones. So this supports taking all of those plans into this section and any additional plans that we adopt would automatically be applied to this so that we are not updating each revision or accepting each revision. This automatically says once you've adopted it as a board, it's automatically included. And then that's the section 1.5.1 that specifies that consistency overall with all the plans. 1.5.2 two lists the current plans that are approved and then others sub being any future plans. 1.5.3 is that interconnectivity and making sure that if there's a gap so if we approve a development that had to shift a connection that that connection still applies to the plan even after that shift occurs. That's one item that it it if we know the shift is going to occur or something on that parcel, this would cover that shift and still relation to the plan. At the same time, the one additional piece is then we are going to be updating the acceptance process and this would include the acceptance of roads and infrastructure on those item making sure that that process will have to be met and we are going to follow up with the development committee and actually have their input on that accept process. So they're working with us just like we're doing with the conservation subdivision right now. So this is leading into that

questions for staff. All right, we do have someone signed up for this public hearing. Mr. Nick Robinson.

Good evening. Uh thank you Mr. Mayor and board. My name is Nick Robinson. Um, I practice law at Bradshaw Robinson's law in Rener here in Pittsburgh. Few years of land use experience here. Um, and I wanted to just speak about that particular amendment. Um, that is proposed. And the main reason why I mean I haven't spoken about any of the other amendments, although I did read them all. Um, you know, I spend every day I I go into the UDO at least once, maybe twice a day for one thing or another. Um, I think that actually in this case, I think this particular draft amendment, um, there's no reason why something like this can't be adopted as soon, but in my personal and professional opinion, I think it's it needs a little bit more time in the oven. And I will, um, explain that here just as briefly as I can. The first thing is that I think that uh the um the uh existing UDO um already has a pretty excellent definition of the relationship of the comprehensive plan to the UDO in section 1.5. Um it's good. It's very similar to what you've seen in almost every other town or municipality. So, I don't really think it needs changes. And when what's proposed to be added here that's in bold at the end of that first paragraph the collection of officially adopted long range planning documents. Um that's not actually a sentence. Um I think I know what it means but I just think it needs a little bit of grammatical assistance. Um and then the um second thing I want to mention is that um it is that um this proposed amendment if you look at that first paragraph where the part that's in bold gives you a definition of what the comprehensive plan is. And then if you look at the next uh section 1.5.2 it gives you another definition of what is included in the comprehensive plan. And then there's already a definition of what the comprehensive plan means in the UDO and

that definition isn't modified by this amendment. Um and then I think um there is so that's three and then um the definitions that May was just talking about that you just adopted the new section of definitions also has some new definitions of comprehensive plan. So you basically with this you're going to wind up with four competing possible definitions of what the comprehensive plan is and I just think it'll raise more questions um provide answers if it's um the other thing is that but May I stop you for a minute? Sure. Sure. But it raised questions and by who? The developers.

Yeah. Anybody that'sing the unified development ordinance to try to figure out what is meant by the by the term comprehensive plan that be four different definitions and it it won't be it doesn't have to be that way and it could be easily fixed. Um the other thing that I want to mention is that um there's a section in here towards the back uh that deals with um oh that's my time anyway. Okay.

Okay. Okay. um a section that uh it follows that 1.53 that talks about in areas where no thorough affairs or collector streets are represented there on streets shall be designed and located in the proper relation to existing and proposed streets to the topography of the area and to the natural features of the streams. Um I just I think that could use a little tightening up there. Um because a lot of times I I don't even know what a proposed street is. Um it it may be something that somebody wants and uh if it's something that's in the comprehensive transportation plan, you don't know whether topography, easements, condemnation or any of that has been considered. So I think that needs a little more work too. And then the last thing um is that I do agree with with May on the um idea of coming up with a system for acceptance of streets. I think this particular amendment says that um you the town won't adopt any or take into dedication or ownership any streets um unless utilities or other public facilities or services extended to or connected with any development for which a plat is to be approved until it meets the requirements of the acceptance of streets process. I don't think there is an acceptance of streets processed with a capital A and a capital S as that's set out in there in the UDO. Maybe I missed it. But I do know that for years the way that that has been handled is by u a way of something called a subdivision improvement agreement like this one. This is one that we actually did with Paul that's recorded. It's 13 pages and it goes through everything about the acceptance and dedication of the street. talks about when you're done with uh construction, then you get an inspection by the town, then you get a one-year warranty period, then there's a reinspection by the town, and once all the punch list items are done, then

there is an an acceptance by the town, and then the town um adopts an ordinance accepting the street right away. So, I'm sure there's a way to incorporate the subdivision um improvement agreement into the process uh by way of amendment like this. It just uh I I would just say it just needs a little bit more little more time. There's plenty of other sounds like there's plenty of other amendments that are coming your way. Uh this one could be folded in with those. And my my usual way of approaching this and I think May will agree is that um is that I would just say, "Hey, can I give some suggestions about this?" But I didn't really know about this one until this morning. Um and so I read it and said, "Well, maybe I should go over there and say something and hopefully uh with a month's time we could be right back here in the same place." um and be uh proposing the town could be proposing an amendment that um I my professional opinion would work a little bit better. That's it.

Thanks.

So there is the potential if we so found that we could move it with the transportation section where the acceptance is pro process is going to be in there. Um, but there still is the piece where the plans are actually not called out directly for alignment with the comprehensive plan because they're part of it and that is not addressed. The language is overlapping because it's meant to be they all still have to be accounted for. We can't just say they're not because it actually calls in certain spaces they're part of it but it doesn't express how. And this does. So the acceptance piece um I can see we could shift that to transportation. I'd still question examples of how to make the modifications um in addition to the others would be a question. So we did base it on other municipalities with the same language and style as this for the addition.

Would it be appropriate to readress this in a month uh after some editing? Yes. And then what we also recommend is whatever recommendations bring we bring that with the list if that was the case as well. Okay. Um Mr. Messik, is that your suggestion? I think it ought to be table for a month. All right. I move to table Should we close the public close public hearing? Yeah. I make a motion or I'll take a motion to close the public hearing. So moved. Thank you. Second, Commissioner Foley.

All right. And I move to table UDO or uh amendment ZTA-2026-04 until the May meeting. Thank you. Is there a second? Second, Mr. Foley. All those in favor say I. I. Hi. Hi. Uh, do we want a five minute recess before we get into parks? It's a good idea. All right. Five minute recess.

All right, we're back in session. We just have seven more public hearings this evening. Uh, Chattam Park South Village Section 2.1 park land. Okay.

Okay. So these next couple ones are each one's going to be a little different obviously, but want to kind of give a recap. Everything that was approved in the small era plan is conceptual, right? It's subject to change. So, one of the things that as staff, what we want to make sure that we're doing as a way of extra transparency, transparency, and as a way um to remind us of of what we're doing to make sure that we're going in the right direction when we're discussing certain parts that are coming down the line, we want to make sure bring it back in front of you to say, "Hey, this is what we're doing. Are we all in agreement that this is this is d the direction that we want to go in? Right? This is not meaning that right now this is what we're accepting the land. This is acknowledging that this is this is good in this location of what we're thinking. Right? So these next couple of things if they have changed if they haven't changed we want to put this in front of y'all to make sure that this is still right direction that we are going in and that we are going to approve that this location is good. This first one is D2 in the south village and this is 50 acres. This was the 90 had 90% usability from our third-party consultants whenever they were reviewing this. Topography is great. We have road frontage, great accessibility. So, this is as long as this one's pretty simple. We took this to the parks and recck advisory board last week and they motioned to approve this one as well. So, now we are bringing it up here. Nothing has changed about this particular site from a small what was approved in the small area plan. So just

want to make sure that we're still good on this. Any question? So this land is usable, correct? Yes. 90% usable. It is great. Yeah. So the topo would be used for could you put a park a ballpark there for instance? Yes. So this would be so as we go obviously there in the design concepts each individual park anything over 5 acres we have that that's going to go back to the public right there are going to be things okay

that we so this would be a site one that we would make sure that we're meeting the public's needs and it would go whenever we accepted this land to see what would go here. this site given the topography and given the usability of it, it would be best suited for an active park which means athletic facilities, ball fields, that type of thing. But generally, we're approving locations right now. Location come back. Yes. Yes. This is location. Yes. If I remember correctly, we have 450 acres give or take 40060 total. Yeah. 660ish acres total. Where did I get 450?

Might be 450 in the south village. Okay. 60 total. Okay. Yeah. So, this is one nth of what we need in the south village. Okay.

Anything? Um, I I don't have particular concerns uh on D2. Um, I have questions. Um, I'm gathering that this is very close to uh this rumored um large golf course community. Is that right?

Potentially. Okay. Um, and well, I guess that's that's kind of the beginning of of some of my questions about all three of these items. uh is proximity to uh residential and how this will affect um our park score um our nervous

so I don't think we know that do we can you expand a little of what you're asking. Yeah. Particular. So, um, up until recently, um, the National Recreation and Parks, uh, Association, NRPA, yes, NRPA,

I call it NERPA. I was told to call it NERPA. um that uh the scoring rubric through an RPA uh Pittsburgh scores very well because we have very close proximity, high walkability. It is based on the percentage of our population and how long it takes them to walk to a park. That's part of it, isn't it? But I'm sure that you can elaborate much. There's a 10-minute walk initiative, which is what we all every community um that is like our overall national initiative. Yes. One of our one of our initiatives that we do.

So, um this though I think I I've heard that uh this 50 acre D2 might be programmed for large ball fields. Is that is that right? So again in the design process is any in what we have established too and anything that's over 5 acres we would be going to the community to ask what the community's needs are. So that that's not a decision for us. We're really leaning heavily on what the what the community decides their needs are.

Yep. Um Would it make sense since uh the Pittsburgh Monure Road facility does not seem to be suited well suited to uh large flat expanses that such a thing might be considered by the community here at D2?

Yes. Topography wise, this would be better suited for active more active recreation athletic facilities. Correct. um and that we've established that um the other concerns are about um egress and ingress from a curved road. I don't have a sense of the proportions um or how much uh line of sight is available to drivers as they come around that curve one way or the other, whichever direction we eventually decide to exit off of this piece of land. So, um yeah.

Are you talking about the curve there at the top? Because it looks like are do you have to cross the stream on both sides to get in and out of this part? So the peaks so that the south village way that's the road and the peak would be multi-use paths going all the way down on each side of those of the road. So you have the road and then you have multi-use paths going all the way down and we don't yet know where we would enter because we just we all we're talking about is the existence of this piece of land here and the possibility

we what we are saying is at this property as is that what we are looking at is we we're not looking at improvements. We're not looking at any designs and things like that that That's going to be we want to make sure that we're meeting the community's needs. If you're looking at usability and size and road frontage, this would be great for a baseball park. Obviously is a huge need for Chattam County.

I think I've heard you say that before. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. Any other questions for Katie? All right. I'll take a motion to approve the location of parkland identified as section 21 D2 with the understanding that approval is for the land in its current condition and that the site will remain in its natural state without disturbance or improvement. Go ahead and close the public hearing. No public hearing. This is just ahead. So moved.

All right. Thank you, Commissioner Foley. Second, Commissioner Thurber. Uh, any other discussion? Sorry. You're good. All those in favor say I. I. I. Any opposed. All right. Thank you. Up next, Chattam Park Southfield section 2.2 or 2.3 parkland relocation. Back. Hey. Hey.

See you again. So this one whereas the first one did not move this one we are in discussion of this movie what was originally approved for this site way may need to be moved here and there right so we're proposing for this E2 to be relocating for whatever purposes of that things going on in the development or plans or whatnot. We want to make sure that we're all on the same page with this. So, I know that this is a little bit hard to hard to read, right? But it has all three different options. So,

help can you help for a minute? Just help me locate. Yes. It orient. Yes. Okay. So, we are so E1 which is Okay. So, we had our D2. You know, are you orienting where remember where D2 is off of you should have on your desk? Go ahead. I'll find it. Here we go.

So, if you look at D2, there's like the whole that will help you more than anything. Yeah, let's go to the next ones. Okay, so you have the original E2 up where it's looking right here. Up above that would be the option one for the E2 relocation. Okay, that would be those those lines over here would be an an option for that, right? So you have in those options they just go from smaller to larger. Something to keep in mind that if you go larger that acreage could be taken away from somewhere else, right? So keep that in mind as well. So that was the first option. Topography is not great there. The usability is also not great. It's very steep. 35% we were running quick numbers so these are very very quick so please don't these are not approximate right or these are not 100% so 35% unusable very steep terrain limited accessibility and it's entirely in the watershed protection area that blue little dotted line anything that's within that is watershed protection area so the second option for E2 relocation would be all the way all the way down Hanks Chapel to the right if you're looking at it. So, oh yeah, good call. No, that's option one and then this is option two down here. Here you just hit the red star button.

Okay, Jonathan, there you go. Right here. Yes. Thank you. I know.

Well, that was my other thing is I was like, I don't want to I can't go. All right. Option two is down here and option three is directly connecting to E1. Right. So for option two whenever we so presented this to the PARB parks and recck advisory board option one was not great from an accessibility and from topography standpoint that one was pretty much nogo. Option two was we seem to like that one a little bit more. The thing about that if because it was uh right next to Jordan Lake, but it turns out only if we could get access through NC Wildlife to be able to a have see if we could partner and get access to Jordan Lake, which after talking to engineering and planning, it looks like that that is the NC wildlife hunting grounds. specifically New Hope game lands. So that's not going to happen.

Yeah. Good.

Right. So that one param said, "Hey, if we can get access, that might be something that we would look into. If not, then we would recommend number three, option number three being the best, which is full connectivity. So you have E1 that's right here. And so option three for E2 would be making this one large part. So one thing to keep in mind is you do have this little creek that's right here. There is a multi-use path that's going to go all the way down. This could be a really cool concept of finding a way to get across this creek on the other side. However, that will be costly because you are going to have to find access across a creek could be unique. So, and then half of half of this area over here is going to be in the watershed protection area, which is not necessarily a bad thing. One of the things that I want just I why I mentioned that is that you're you're limited in what you can do sometimes is it has to be you can't have high density areas in them. You can't have a lot of imper imperous surfacing. So it may limit on your parking. It may limit on some of the things that you're able to do within that watershed protection area

or make it more expensive. Right. Or Exactly. That was the next thing. Yes. Or make it more costly. to improve on.

So E. So you have we have three choices. E2 that's delineated on this and you said this one is meh, right? Because of the topography. It's kind of steep, right? Hard hard to use. So you're suggesting either option two or option three. Yes. So option one which is a relocation because there's the original right. So option one to be relocate up here and that was where up here right here. Option one. That's option one. Relocation. And why don't you like that piece? Look at this creek that goes all the way up here. Okay.

And so you have this one little tiny access point that's right here. And whenever you had this little sliver that's only that you could potentially only approve on, but then you'd have to go across this creek and there's not as much accessibility and road frontage as we would like and it would be costly to create that access point and the topography there is not great. combined with the watershed is not both ideal. But there's no hunting there, right? This would this would be our property. This would be our Yeah. Yeah.

This would be the only site that backs up to the game land. Okay. But it would be on the taxpayers to build a crossing over that creek. Correct. Right. Well, a a different one than the green greenway. Like the greenway.

Yes. The greenway is already having that established connectivity right there. But if you wanted to do any other crossing that was down further, that would be the that would that would be costly. That would be on us. I'm having trouble understanding these options. I I clearly understand where option one is. Um, I get it that E2 is is the non-favored option. Um, I'm trying to go back and forth between this and the map in the packet that has so much too on it, which is helpful, but uh dense and slow moving on my computer.

Um, so can you please use your laser again to be a little bit more precise in delineating whatever the third option is? So this third option is right here. So this is Hank's chapel right here, right? So you would go all the way right here to connect to here. That is So that's a very different shape than um what I think I'm seeing on Charlie Brooks Brooks Road. Is that no longer E1 is no longer an option?

No. So it would be connect. So this is already this would connect E2 that if this was approved the new E2 would connect with the existing E1. On this map it's the piece that has like 2.2 in it. So it would would connect those together. If you go to the third fourth fifth page maybe it shows it. Yeah. So, this was only just to orient yourself from like an above standpoint. This does not show. Yeah.

30,000 feet in the air. Okay. Um, and there's no topo. Is there too there? Oh, yeah. Yeah, there is, isn't there? It's kind of steep in the south. Oh, if you go back, southeast corner is kind of steep, right? I can tell. Yes. Yeah. And it's within the water protection. Yeah, it is almost all of it or half of it

because option option one has the creek limited access from the road. Option two is the piece that's within the watershed. It's kind of by itself. And then option three is connecting option two and E1 with some additional property. Now, if you but if you were to do option three, it's going to require additional acreage that is then going to come from a different park. So, they have to shift some things around. And E1, excuse me, E1 and 2.2 will be combined combined. They could in option three. Yes.

Would be a total of 60 just 65 62 and a half. Yep. And Katie, how much of that land is is usable? So all usable mean

E1 is almost usable. That was very high if memory serves me correctly. That was another one similar to our D2. And so this area is It says 30 what we were quick numbers were about 36% of this area that is being proposed is unusable. 36% was unusable or usable? Unusable. Okay. It's not bad. Please say no.

I'm gonna I'm gonna phone a friend. up here. We need unusable land. I give you park land because it's unusable. Kurt Fifer with Wizard Rabbit Lel. Um try to pull up something here real quick just so I can uh get the the numbers right. I did a quick uh topo analysis of especially on the 2.2 two side park over here and there is not a slope that is greater than 3% on that side. Okay, so that's good.

From the roadways all the way down the stream buffer. It's pretty it probably one of the flattest sites out here in this area. On the other side of the creek, that little sliver, there are some slopes up to 10%, but as far as everything that you see on screen, nothing would exceed 10%. Okay. Okay. The section between E1 and 2.2 is quite steep. It it looks like it because at the scale that you're looking at, but um but there is no slope over 10%. No slope over 10%. Okay. All right.

So if we selected this one, thank you. If we selected this one, uh this option uh we would have an economic savings somewhat because uh you have all your personnel there as opposed to your services there as opposed to spreading them out further. Some some savings at least this looks better to topographically than the other two options. Is that also correct? Yes.

Without I know we're not like near use yet, but if we uh how much larger is this than the current suggestion? So, this would be 8.6 acres more than the original. The original E2 was 20 acres and this is 28.3 acres. question

because I'm I'm curious like if we did sort of South Carolina there and not the other piece like what's what's the value in the connector piece if that's taking land from somewhere else and that's a green lake connection. I know you can't speak without use, I guess, but it seems like that's the least usable land. And if we kind of treat the creek would probably have us treat these as separate parks anyway. Mhm. Uh but I I don't know. I guess we don't know yet if there's value. Um

what is that the acreage on that center piece? It's part of section 22. the sliver part. Yeah. Yeah. Ballpark, you think? Is that 80 acres? And that's about a little less than five acres. Five acres. And keep in mind that 3 acres of what you take has got to be for a fire station. At least the way this is proposed. The fire station wouldn't be on E2. Yeah. If you look at the the overall plan, the original E2 location that there's an orange kind of parcel there at the the southern end of it that was slated for a conceptual uh area for a fire station.

See any orange on my It's not on my right. At E2 different map page three of your packet. So, this is looking to approve fire fire location change.

I'm sorry. This is this is really hard to follow. It's really um uh convoluted and I can understand why staff would want us to make the decision. I need clearer preparation for this. I need uh an advisory board recommendation rather than an NA. Um, and I'm going to move that we table this. Um, also I I need an understanding of the relationship between this and population density. Um, because it's going to impact our NEUPA score. So, um, yeah. Um, I'll table it indefinitely. Um, until um staff can deliver that. I I'm sorry. Well, I can't just I I can say that as of last week whenever we were discussing with the person rec advisory board, they did say had we come how we if we were not able to make that connection with the Jordan Lake across that property then their choice would have been for the option three. So take that as

writing

um and again I really think it's very important that we understand this in relation we're we're talking we're being asked to make uh a multi-deade decision here and we don't know where the population is going to be in relation to these tracks of land. Um yeah, let's Is there a second to his motion? I'll second that.

Thank you. Um uh all right. So discussion on the motion to table indefinitely this decision. Um I don't think we need to go indefinitely till we have some answers. Uh I I agree that there should be a population density requirement just so we know where we're headed with this. This is this is great legislative decision-m but uh we we do need more information. I think we need more information. Um it's hard to jump from one map to the other. Just a little feedback, Katie. And if if we knew exactly a ballpark idea of where the public is going to be in relationship to this, if you could put those two things on the map. And then I think the other thing is the fire station.

Yes. Thank you. And and making sure that uh we're making a sound decision. We owe it to the public to do that. So So fire station surrounding population and clear topo if you can. Okay. Would it be better to make some of these options different colors? Oh yeah. Okay. Purple. I like purple. Me, too. And a usability would be really helpful. Yep. And then overlay the uh the the trails.

Um what's your estimate of when you could have that together or when you all could have that together? Next month. I mean, that's next meeting, right? Yep. Yep. Great. Um, you want to modify your motion to next meeting? Yes. If you're if you're looking for a parks and rec advisory board specific decision, then I could see about a special meeting. Am I misspeaking on that, Carrie? you can call a special meeting, but that means this will probably wait till June

and we may need two months to flush a lot of this out anyway.

Okay, good. I think it'd be great to have a map for each of the options so that we have a fair amount of resolution blown up um and pros and cons for each of them from staff perspective. and if that's presented to the PARUB, um I'm sure they'd be willing to present a a written report. Um and their recommendation is very important to me. Um pros and cons, uh as Commissioner Foley pointed out, could include the uh fire station considerations, um ingress and egress, uh traffic. I mean we we want these to be uh in proximity to the population densities and we just don't have that information. Um and that's also presents its own dynamics right with pedestrians and vehicular comingings and goings. So thank you for hearing me. One qu is this fire station location is it is this what we had in the survey?

Yes sir. It is okay. Yeah, the E2 was just outside, but it was close enough and we had the um our fire department consultant look at it and he said it was fine. But then would would the acceptance of this parkland move the fire station? Is that what we're hearing? Maybe I think those should be separate. Like I wasn't clear that the fire station was fire station move was involved in this and have taken a piece out of the new location whatever. So I think we should have the park relocation and then a fire station relocation if necessary. Okay.

But we got two months to figure it out and bring you back to us. Okay. Modify my motion to reflect a June tableabling until June um any other discussion on that. All those in favor say I. I. I. And next we have section 43 parkland relocation.

Right. So, this is another one that we flip-flopped a little bit. This is There we go. Thank you. of originally in the green, the C1 that was approved in the South Village small area plan. We are flipping it up just on the other side of the road. This area is going to be a high density area in the surrounding area. Some of the things that some of the site constraints that I've had listed in here uh has been topography is a little is better in this area than it was. If you see on C1, especially with the buffers and around that little stream bend is was a little dicey for us whenever we were looking at it. One of the things to keep in mind, so 42, you can't really see it on this map, but in one of the other ones, it shows that there is a greenway trail that's going to be coming down the the side of the property and in front of it. It's on the left. This

I keep forgetting. Thank you. It's on this. Yeah, if you There you go. Yeah. Right here. So orange yellow is greenway. Yeah. And so higher density area and then we have that face. Oh, another thing to keep in mind is that it is also located within a transmission line right ofway and includes areas subject to buffer requirements. So all right

all of this that's coming down this way. So one of the things that we are we have been in discussion too is again this is just saying hey we're acknowledging that this is a good location for this and that we are approving of this location of this move from down to above. Later on as we go, we will make sure that we have everything in accordance to what restrictions that we can and can't have with the restrictions of the transmission lines being in the rightway of what we can do underneath those lines.

Should we if there's that um utility easement, should we like find out what those restrictions are first? So, typically the greenways, the greenway is going to go right underneath it. And given that we have all the multi-use paths right here and going across, we felt that that was a lot of connectivity, given the density and the surrounding area that this could be a really great park, especially with the road frontage and be one of more passive parks. Is it flat? I'm sorry to interrupt.

So the parts that it was it's looking from ours would be around 60 65% usability. So but the topography wasn't terrible on it. So I'm assuming it slopes towards the the buffer. It does. Yes. Accessibility is nice. Yeah, it's right in the middle of everything. You got the trails all around it. Good 10 acre park right in the center of pretty dess.

Yep. It's just flipped over and personal report did motion to approve. Any other questions for Katie? I have just one question and it's it's in my mind is every one of these suggestions says that the site will remain in its natural state without disturbance or improvements.

Explain that to old man. So that means that when we were talking about this that we are agreeing of this land right now that without any any disturbance any grading or anything like that. So we are just acknowledging that hey we are approving this site as is and that that is without any movement on that property. it back to us before anything is determined or anything is done at that site and then we can change that

it don't want the site to get cleared as part of an overall development and then you say oh man this would have been a nice bird watching park but now all the trees are gone or whatever is sudden

I like this That's a 40ft drop from the top uh the highest point uh down to the stream buffer was from 390 to 350. Mhm. How many acres is it? then three. I think it'd be different if it was one acre. It's a gradual slope.

Likes it. Parks and recovery board likes it. I mean, it's has full connectivity right in the middle of everything. Oh, Katie, I'm sorry. I'm just I amum uh I'd really love to see something other than NA on advisory board recommendations on your items in future. I think it's really important that we have a parks advisory board and that they u be given. Uh

so our meeting was last Wednesday and items were already due. So that's why it has NA there right now. But that is going to be in the meeting minutes their formal approval. But as Carrie can correct me if I have misspoken by any means that they have approved.

Yeah. And by scale you got about a 600 foot distance from the 390 mark to the 3 foot deep. What would you say? A 40 40 foot drop. Yeah. Two out of 500 ft. What is that? 7%. At least I could do that in my head. It's late. Who knows?

6%. I was close. Were there other options considered for this area? No, this was an area because you know they have different requirements for each section. This was something that was always given the density and things like that that was going to be this was proposed and this was ideal. Any other questions for staff? What is the density of the uh residential indicated on um I think that's page or of your memo. I see a lot of gray squares, gray rectangles.

I I'm not sure. Is that all residential? Would you like to come up here and answer some of these questions? Yes. Uh Chuck Smith with Chattam Park. Um in in this proposed section design plan that would be submitted there's between 6700 homes in that area. So um there are a couple of point you have great questions. Thank you.

And I that I'm not blowing I'm not I'm blowing smoke here because it's an important point. Um, we tried to look collectively through the south and and disperse so that you talked about a 10-minute walking distance with through the NRPA goals. We've been talking about a fivem minute walking distance when we look at not only the bigger parks but also the many parks and different things that we have to to to a recreation facility. So, we were look and we've been doing this with Katie and Jonathan for the last year and a half in terms of looking at the total picture. Um there's one matter that hadn't really been addressed here, but within the approval of Chattam Park, there's seven park planning districts. Five are in the south. There's a requirement that a 10 a minimum 10acre park be located in each of those five. And that again gets it located where people are and kind of dispersing through the acreage as opposed to everything being grouped in in one area. So this and that's why you see those letters D, E, and F because those are representing what the different park planning um districts uh refer to. So anyway, it get kind of without specifically giving you density information or things like that, it it's addressing that holistically from from your concerns. In this case, as Katie said, it's right in the middle of 6 to 700 homes. And that's that's just what's in this picture. That's not what's also just off of the picture with the the the activity center that's where the most density is is just to the right there. Um where the say the title block is in the in the drawing. It's not part of this section design plan. But when you look at the sections or the activity centers where density and really you've spoken to this a few different times both in the north and here, but if you're looking where the majority of

density is going to be is just to the to the right of um Rosen Creek. So that's Chattam Parkway on the bottom of this drawing. um what is called Eubanks I think right now on the on the top um the road going through it is I think Lorax extension is a on your thoroughfare plan that's why the park is located on this you've had a desire to locate parks on these higher traveled roads as opposed to neighbor back in the back of a neighborhood or something that meets that requirement um and then density more than thousands of units will be just just to the right of of this picture.

More than thousands of units. Yes. Most of our density on the south is going to be just to the right. Excellent. Okay. So, I guess thank you so much, Mr. Smith. It's good to see you again. It's good to see you. Thank you.

Um that that kind of information is really helpful and and reassuring. Um but I think that uh my discomfort the bulk of my discomfort is because this small area plan was proposed to be done in sequence with a number of section design plans uh that was approved by the board. However, uh we're now looking at three park locations all at once and we don't have a clear quantitative understanding of where the density is. And so if we can get that, is it possible to run the park score on a specific piece of land at this stage?

I don't think that's a question for me. That's why I was looking at Katie because a park score is for a community as I understand right. It's it's an accumulation of all the parks not just Yes. And and what I can say it's a it's a little bit more in depth and that's why I'm hesitating only because

we don't have all we don't have all the numbers and we don't have all the information. So I don't want to give you something that we don't have yet if that makes sense. What I can tell you, I mean, if you're even just looking at it for this area, is that what you're looking for? Are you looking for, hey, what does this look like for NRPA standards for this density for this area? Is that what your question is? Or are you looking from an overall standpoint?

Well, the prior decision, absolutely. Yes. For this decision, we're only be being given one option. So, I don't have any optionality there, right? U I'd still like to know it. I think it's important to know. Okay. So, you we don't want something for this one or we do want something for saying I would like to know. Okay. For this one as well, but it uh like I said, it doesn't there's no option B or C or option two or three with this uh section design plan number four. Am I saying that correctly, Chuck? 4.3 4.3. Okay, thank you.

Wasn't sure exactly you're going with it. Um.3 or 4.2 it's approximate 4.2 but Yes sir.

So so but so so I understand exact because this park score it there there needs to be a park in this area. The question you're saying if it was I mean Katie is saying it's right in the center of the this plan. If it's tucked over in a corner it's further reduce that score. It's going to I'm not not exactly sure what how you calculate that score. If it's a certain distance of home or certain number of homes within a certain distance of the park. It's this I believe chat GBG is telling me it's the 10-minute walk. a 10-minute walk, right, approach, but it's

everything in that picture is within a 10-minute walk. So, you I think our park's master plan is a fivem minute goal, doesn't it? NRPA standards is 10-minute. Our our Chattam Park goal is to have a goal. But I think this park master plan also says five, but parks master plan, but that's not every that's not I mean there are other there are other many parks in here too that are not part of this decision within that walk. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to ask the same question because you've got the the pocket parks that are going in. Um

we got uh 18 that will be going into the South Village. So they'll be dispersed throughout depending on that you would see this this I think the requirements are of this size. You've got to make these kind of decisions on location on the other ones that'll be part of a subdivision or preliminary plat that comes in later.

Chad GBT is saying Pittsburgh master plan it's 10 minutes. Okay, it's a good spot. It's a great spot. C2 D2 saying the park scores. I'd like to make a motion to approve relocation of parkland identified as section 4.3 C1 to the proposed location with the understanding that approvals is for the land in its current condition and that the site will remain in its natural state without disturbance or improvement.

Thank you. Is there a second? Second, Commissioner Foley. Any other discussion? All those in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Yeah, I I think I think I'm opposed. I'm just not ready. But um would still like to to see those proximity numbers possible. Okay, motion pass. Thank you.

Uh next is adjournment. I ask for a motion to adjurnn. Uh before we do that, please uh a long time ago we used to say commissioner concerns towards the end of the meeting and I do have a concern that um I've been chewing on after short's presentation on the flock. Uh excuse me uh Chief Johnson. Chief Johnson, I was deeply impressed with the depth and breadth of your work. I'm more convinced than ever in my confidence in you and your team's uh concerns about safety and your diligence and carefulness in um in applying the law uh to protect the town and town's people. Um, my concerns remain about the corporate ownership of the flock company. Uh, I think you've heard me say in writing and I'll say verbally, I am not interested in taking away tools for your law enforcement. I would be open to uh townowned cameras and town administered and controlled data. Um, what I'd really like is if uh, Chief Johnson, if you yourself and uh, Jonathan Franklin, if the two of you could meet specifically with the Chattam County attorney who I am told has gone through the contract and has substantial concerns about that contract. I don't know if that's the new contract

or the old contract. Um, but I would really like to hear both of you report back after consulting with the county attorney. And I'd like to make that a motion. I second.

Any other discussion on that? All those in favor say I. I. Any oppose? N. Um, motion to adjurnn. All right. So moved. Second, Commissioner Monets. Thank you, Mr. Foley. All those in favor say I. I. All right.