Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

always welcome. All right. Approval of of minutes for se September 17, 2025. There's no corrections. I offer a motion to accept minutes of priv. Okay. I'll second that. All right. Charlie made the motion. Seconded. Um all in favor of passing the minutes as is.

I minutes are accepted. All right. Moving on to uh public comment. If there's anyone here that is not has something to say that doesn't have anything to do with our agenda, this is the time to speak and confirm. Was anyone online? No. Okay. We will uh close the public comment and move on to old business proposed pathetics outdoor lighting or you have a copy in your packet of the ordinance with the red lines that were suggested recommended by the city attorney. uh actually with the reorganization taking the preamble and validating it into one paragraph moving the definitions up to article two. There were no no changes to any of the technical requirements. The red line version was submitted to dark sky for review. I did receive today which I handed out their review and they find it still consistent and if the ordinance was adopted as revised by the city attorney, the city of Paskki will be the first city in the country to have a dark sky certified recognized outdoor lighting ordinance. Personally, I think we're good to go. uh if the planning commission is okay with the changes that have been made by the time that this would be then uh cycled over to city council for their review and hopefully their adoption.

Excuse me. Just one is just a I think a typo. you have to go to uh section 3.3 which when you look online it's like page 14 of the PDF and I hand number these page seven but 3.3 prohibitions you have a chance to get there. Okay. Um, it's just redundant because Allen stands for um, light at night basically the last thing and then you have light at night again. So you e I think you need to get rid of the phrase light at night just Allen must not interfere or maybe put parenthesis.

Yeah. And then put the whole thing but it's in the definition. Allen's defined but it's kind of looks redundant to you. So that was that was and then on the next page um the tables for 3.5. My curiosity is what criteria was used to put something in LZT LZ2 versus LZ3. That to me those are very similar areas. Um L B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B 3A B3 and B3B are all on the entry to the city. They're going to do Charway Avenue or Spring Street and um they're very similar to OS. They're very similar to the hospital, which is in the other zone. So, I would propose that we consider putting um B3, B3A, and B3B since they're very similar. Um put them in the same LZ2 district. I think you want if you want low lighting for the hospital, seems like you want low lighting for those two entryways. Uh, so I don't and I wasn't on the discussion of why that area was was

the B3, the B3A, and the B3B are all primarily highway corridors, right? And that was the reason why they're in a moderately high ambient lighting area, but as is um well, the other ones are adjacent to other types of landings that are

and so are these. I mean, there there's a big neighborhood there. If you look at if you pull the map out, I mean I I think the character of those areas are very similar. This is also along the highway and these are all going to be low light, you know. So I you know then this is the hospital zone that's also LZ. So LZ2. So it seems to me if those are LZ2 should be LZ2. And if you think about if you're trying to prevent light from getting out when you look across the bay, my mom's in Bay Luff, and you look this way, the first thing you see is that big hill of Paskki, you know, coming down the highway. And so we have if we're if we're truly looking at trying to prevent light from going out, I think those areas should be considered at least thought about. That was just my proposal. commission could do what they want, but I I would like to respectfully suggest that we move B3, B3A, and B3B.

I would disagree with that primarily because the B3, the B3A, and B3B have some of our more intensive retail and also gas stations. Gas station uh canopy lights are between seven and 15 of uh uh foot candles. and if we move them into the LZ2, they're they're not going to comply. We're not going to be able to hit those targets. So, there is some rationale behind it based on these definitions that were put forth by the dark sky association regarding the type of land uses that should be in these zones. And then what I did is at the committee level, we looked at the land uses and then we applied those land uses to the respective zoning codes in order to make sense. So where there's a comparison between land use type and zoning code relative to lighting intensity

B3A really has no gas station, but it's it's really corridor lighting. Yeah. Yeah. Long Island and um there's a huge R1 neighborhood right behind. John, if I could and then it's to look at the um absolute differences between these two sections and clearly the L LZ3 is is a little bit more is allowed, but I don't know that it's that significant. It's it's really in the drive canopies. Yeah.

And that's that's the issue. So that's the reason. Well, I think this will be such a huge improvement over totally what we have now that this will be a huge step forward. For instance, Albert, I think on the drive can piece these gas stations, I believe now they're closer to 60 foot canels and the risk recommendation is 15. Okay. Quite quite okay. And then and this will only take effect if there's ever it's not going to take effect immediately. If I had one as a gas station, I wouldn't have to change my liver. Not even until I was depends if it's deemed nuisance. You'll have to change it. Deemed a nuisance or if they go through a renovation

renovation list, this would have been in place when the marathon renovated their entire they would had to comply with this. So any any changes that take place, but if if it uh if the lighting goes off their property, that is justification to clear the nuisance. Okay. So and like I said and I take your point this a whole lot less just wanted to make sure I understood why we we don't really have any data in terms of the existing light levels in these right is there any proposal to try to accumulate that he's our lighting expert

well you know we talked about really um this applying to new things absolutely in renovations and I'm all for complaints. Um, we don't know how to track it data wise. Right. Unless you have a satellite from out of space. But the the helpful thing here is these recommendations are based on Yeah. dark sky and ISA recommendations. So, we weren't shooting in the dark. Otherwise, we would have had like eight.

A follow-up question. Yeah. We got stellar outstanding. I've never seen a report card this good in my experience, but um we've got outstanding grades here except for two uh that are yellow, which isn't so bad. But would you address those two? They're on the second page of the sports lighting and an electronic message. Those are the ones we saw. Yeah, the uh the the electronic message center is going to be covered in the sign ordinance.

Okay. And the uh item 3.6F is the we have some provisions in there regarding light writ lighting flags and sculptures. And they're just saying that you know what you have in there is fine, but you know they've experienced too that sometimes it's hard and difficult difficult trying to control lighting on a flag or on a piece of artwork because many times it's up light. It's not down with especially statues. You can't put a light on their head and shine it down. It's got to be. So, you know, they just said, you know, it it it would be preferred, but it's not mandatory. It makes it better. At this point, I'm not too worried about it.

John, if I could, I I found a couple uh things I wanted to ask you about. One was the purpose 1.2. That paragraph was redone obviously as we can see but um I didn't pick this up before 3quarters of the way through the five principles for responsible outdoor lighting. Uh the city of Paskki will be guided by the five principles. Um and when I was reading this I thought it was the the five things below but it clearly wasn't which got struck but put back in the paragraph. It's actually a different set of items which you'll find in the definition section under five principles for responsible relating. Yeah.

Um so that's the actual five. I just think it's kind of unusual in a purpose or document. It's like giving an abbreviation and no one knows what it means. So at a minimum I was going to ask if in that sentence after city of Jesus will be guided by the five principles for responsible lining we would put parentheses C definitions just so someone what are they um because they weren't actually just stated above kind of but not really so otherwise I put them all there but I think C definitions or you could have it as an outset you know in a whatever you think in a box and then just list the five principles. I'm not going to change it too much from what the attorney did.

Got it. Would you rather do

I got a correction on the definitions. Um I don't know if you do this on purpose or not. Um so put candle one put candle equals 10 lux. It says near the end of that definition. It actually doesn't. It's like 10.7639. So most most places say approximately. So I thought we should put Yeah. So it's the last sentence. One foot candle equals approximately. That changes to approximate. Yeah. I just think that's how most people say that. Um Okay.

And to the part on exemptions, um I just had a question for the everyone and the people who work is that page seven. So um under jurisdiction yeah seasonal exemptions e seasonal um there was an exemption from November 1 through January 15th and um that had to do with a lot of the holiday stuff. I just was trying to remember myself people wanted did we discuss November one or would October one where you get the Halloween stuff? Yeah. I don't I was just wondering did we November one or do we No, I don't know.

The committee put November one. Okay. Yes. So then I guess it's more of a question maybe Cynthia and some of the people in the I think city council might take um and want to extend the January 15th deadline because downtown especially keeps up their holiday lights right into February, right? Um, and point taken, the October one would enable the holiday lights. So, so I don't know what you want to do with that. Yeah. Wouldn't you rather address that now, John, than have that be a city council debate? Who knows what the debate's going to be?

Well, I know that. Trust me. Uh, we could we could do I guess November 1st to 15th. A lot of people decorate for Christmas. Not a lot of people decorate for Halloween. I don't care if you want. Okay, let's do it October 1 through February. I we actually consult with the um uh downtown management board because they have their schedule for all those things. the 15th that David. Yeah, it's usually when? February 15th. Uh January, I think that's dictated.

Well, you're here. We extended it uh to that President's weekend. Uh is that I would do all February February somewhere. Hey guys, let's not to get too crazy. We're going to keep them up all year. That's a long That's a long weekend. The end of February is the good month in the winter. You would want All right. So, yeah. Is everybody in agreement we do October through February? Yes. Okay. Was that all you have? Okay. I since we're doing this, I was going to do this priv privately, John, but on page three, the definitions. Hey guys, come on. No, I have to send this back to the attorney.

No, you won't. This is just they got numbered and I don't know why they're numbered. So this is the second definition and SIE lighting standards and it starts with RP2 outdoor retail spaces and then it says 3 through 7. So for some reason those caught numbers and they shouldn't. Well that just the numbers need to be deleted.

I just had one just one notice one minor mistake on uh 4.2B to be civil infraction says any any of this ordinance shall be a just says municipal civil infraction should be a should there be it you know it's actually there but it's it gets buried oh I see you're right it is there never mind all right I think we're you need to schedule a public hearing or do we need to discuss whether we have a signal?

I move that we schedule it for the November 19th. That's our public hearing. Okay. Kindly made the motion. Bob seconded. All in favor? I Everyone voted yes. Thank you. All right. Now

we move on to new business. Case number 25325 site plan amendment 900 street loss at LY Square. So we have representing lofts at London Square is Jan McKenzie if you want to. And Aaron wait a minute where are we? Yeah sunshi landscape. How do you want to handle this madam chair? Well, maybe a description for you. I uh I'd like to hear what the what the change.

You have to you have to take for me explain. You have to take a look at two things. first their landscaping plan and which was reviewed and commented on and then I provided a handout which is an email from James McKenzie the executive director at Newman Homes that we got this afternoon basically saying they agreed with the with the recommendations in the review and they have listed and I didn't type this up I just provided you a copy of Jane's email. So, basically, you have their plan, you have her comments regarding the the changes that they're going to make on the plan. My recommendation is to accept the plan they submitted along with her email regarding the modifications they're going to make to it.

Okay, that's it. I think we're good. So, I do have in this courtyard, is there going to be a shade turning Um, just the one the green the bigger green tree toward the map. Well, is it a maple tree? Green and maple both green. Oh, there it is. Okay. Okay. So, my recommendation is to accept the plan, their plan. I don't have it in front of me. You do. What's the date on it? October 13th El says that the 11

Oh no 9 917 9:17 so accept the plan from Ross that's dated 917 there we go and the email from Jane which is dated October 15th and just approve both the plan and the email so we have the record and I'll give these to Lisa and we can they can proceed with their landscaping. So moved. Okay. Uh so

so just to clarify on the south side of the building or screening that house on Washington in that building on it, you got rid of that uh rain barrier because of the lighting. Is that No. Um the plans don't show it, but there is a retaining wall at the edge of our property. And so you have parking lot, just a tiny bit of space, a retaining wall, and then on the other side of the rain retaining wall, the neighbor has a fence. So there's not really room to put in plants there that are going to survive. Oh, okay. Thank you.

And the fence serves the existing fence serves as a screening. Rick, I've got my question is about the very southwest corner of the property by the corner of the parking lot. In the original plan, there was a a larger shade tree there. And you know, the building is a pretty good size building coming down the greenway and then the sense of it drops down to the ground level of the parking lot. And I just am curious why there isn't going to be that big shade tree there on the end of the parking lot. but I think would help give it sort of a termination, you know, a visual termination of of the development.

Um, we did end up extending the parking lot 3 ft to make sure we could accommodate the space mainly because we had to increase the size of our dumpster area in order to fit the, you know, um, when GFL GFL came out to, you know, figure out the right angles and stuff. So, um, that space is a little bit smaller, but, um, maybe we could put some as we extend the evergreens along Washington Street, maybe we could put a couple of those over there

with those two other street trees that are on the right side or the east side of the the parking lot entry. I think having something on the left side would be a nice balance. Yeah, if you look there, there is a what do you call those things? A fire hydrant hydrant. Yes, there's a fire hydrant in that location. So, I you know, I'm not sure about the circle with a couple of lines on it. It's the fire hydrant. There's another circle there that I'm not sure what that represents. Yeah, it's certainly nothing critical, but I just think it would be a nice we are

I'll add that there's some uh plans for the green belt that include trees along the green belt pathway that will help provide some of that scale as well. So try to plant you might be necessary. Well, who's going to be planting those trees? That's the city. Okay. Okay. We have a second. Oh, made I didn't hear your second. It was too quiet. Quiet made second. All right. Any more discussion? No. So, all those in what?

All those in favor? I. Anybody opposed? All right. Oh, wait a minute. We did. Did you include the date of the 9:17. My motion was what he said.

Moving on. So, thank you. Thank you. Case number 252-25, site plan review, 410 Rose Perry Event Center. We have a lot of people here representing Perry Hotel. So I think I'm just going to have you say your name and what you do your title rather than the way chief development officer Tony Beckerly managing director Mike Zorn vice president of operations Drew Smith general manager I'm Carrie May with point engineering engineer of record for the site plan

Roth architects architect of record. That's all. So be before we get started, um I need to ask the question and actually should ask this question every time, but I don't remember. Um do we have anybody who might have an appearance of a conflict of interest?

Uh I'd like to address uh of course everybody probably knows we used to own the Perry Hotel and this whole project. Uh I want to assure everyone that we have no direct financial ties. However, my son Drew does work for the new management company and the new owner. So, I would certainly not want to have the appearance of a conflict of interest if that's determined by uh the board here.

Okay. So, we don't do this very often, but we decide as a group whether we think there's a conflict of interest. So, um I do think given the long-term relationship and the fact that a family member is working for them, it certainly feels like an appearance of a conflict of interest. Does anybody have a different take? That's my take also. Okay. So, uh, how do So, I think it's the, um, consensus that it's a conflict of interest and thank you for or the appearance or it is an appearance. Let's Yeah, let's be clear. An appearance of it. So, thank you.

So, he's he will leave and we'll call him he'll be in here waiting and we'll call him back when we're we're done. Okay. Back to work. Well, handled. Um, I'll give you a half review.

Uh, of course the reviews are done a week ahead of time and we always provide a copy to the project team for their review. This is pretty much a very clean review. The plans were exceptionally prepared, well done both for civil engineering and the architectural plans. There was only one issue regarding the zoning code and that's been taken care of. The maximum height in the district is 45. They had 46.5. They have changed the plans, resubmitted. They now complied with the maximum building height.

Is that is the building height 44t 11 in?

Yes. Uh like I said, we prepared this a week ahead of time so it hasn't been amended. They've agreed. They've reviewed the civil engineering comments. They're in agreement with the civil engineering comments which are on page five. Uh we had some conditions of course the building being lowered taken care of. Proposed lighting that's been taken care of. They have submitted a site plan with dimensions to the zoning administrator and they will address the civil engineering comments. So there's really no existing conditions on this. So we're recommending approval. If the planning commission wants to see hear more of a detailed presentation, I'm sure the applicant is willing to do that. But from our our standpoint, the development team, which consists of Lisa, myself, Matt, city engineer, and Jason Fage, who's the director of public works. We've all went through it. Pretty clean review. my presentation,

right? Um, for the commission, the page six got separated from the rest of the assessment and it's at the bottom of it ended up at the bottom of paperwork. So, um Christine handed hand handed out. So, you can see the um on page five it and ended with motion to approve of conditions and there was only one condition shown. So, yeah, I found it.

Yeah. Um I have a question. Yes, it all appears to me to be in order as well. the exceptional fine site review presentation. The uh I believe it's the eastern wall has no windows. It's it it just has the the shape of the windows in it. And I'm wondering is that going to be um further addressed with plantings in front of it or it just looks that side the view from your hotel looks pretty stark and I was wondering how you were planning out addressing. So just to clarify the reason it's stark is because that wall is sitting on the property line and we can't have any openings in it through the fire code. So the tracer that you see, those arches are the exact shapes of the windows on the opposite side. And we will coral the arch top and we'll probably do some detailing with the brick there as well. Um, and then you can also see there's vertical lines that kind of follow the column.

Oh, no. I saw all that. Yeah. So, we're trying to address it with the materials that are on the building, but there's not a lot we can do as far as openings. Put it up on this. that this so like glass brick wouldn't do it or anything like that within five feet it has to be rated so you could do a rated glass unless it's sitting on the property line zero doesn't know zero well it does seem very severe I don't know if there be I let's ask the architects.

Jeff is saying well I I think the shape of the arches and and the threedimensional delete relief would be enough on that wall myself. I mean it's a pretty blank wall now the existing building. Yeah. But it's a quarter the size of the new structure. That's true. It's a lot bigger. So can I ask a question? Um first I'm gonna have Carolyn. I agree with um Brett Con the detailing of it took appear like one swings that were taken away. So I think it's fine to me visual interest there. Exactly.

Just a thought. It's just a thought not not any kind of recommendation. There are places like I'm picking up in history where they done a mural of a hotel. I was I was going to suggest that. And so I don't know if you could mural those windows to make them look like they're done on purpose but not deleted, but new city with the way it is. Don't I'm I'm not suggesting New City Art Commission might be open to such a proposal. Yeah, that'd be Yeah. Or it might be a nice spot to, you know, not necessarily paint the wall because painting brick causes a lot of issues, but as a facade to mount some artwork. Yes. you know, and have some outdoor public art. Absolutely. That would be really well considered.

Yes. I don't know if that would be considered signage. So, we'd probably have to go through that with the city, but I think we can separate signage from art commission that you would go to for that. Yeah, that'd be a great facade for that, especially below that horizontal line. I haven't forgotten,

right? um uh under you know the architectural standards section of the orgus uh and in in the handout here where you've done the various calculations I followed all of that uh the one two three fourth bullet down that makes reference to arched lentils and arched windows I'll just comment on the fact that you know these are roundtop arches and if you look at the perry hotel. And if you look at the vast majority of other masonry buildings downtown, they either have a square flat lent along the top or it's a segmental arch rather than a whole half round arch. And I think all the half round archless would would be more appropriately segmental arches to blend better with the area itself and be more appropriate than a context of Paskky's historic downtown.

What do you mean by segmented? I'm not sure. Yeah. Well, it's a segment of a curve. you know, instead of being a full half circle, it's partway up the circle where it's it's just, you know, comes up like that and then it's a a flat curve, I'll say, across the top as opposed to a full half circle and then it would have like a lentil in the middle center of it. No, no, it would be like that that's shown there where the glass comes up into that shape. It's just that instead of being a half circle, it would be a brighter like a half oval instead of a half circle

stone is what I think that's what I meant with the Yeah, I think there would be a break that kind of Oh, all right. I recognize that from

Yeah. You know, the vast the vast majority of of our historic buildings in downtown either have a flat or a square window head or it's a segmental arch shape. There are a few buildings that have like like roast and toast that building is a full half arch at the top but they're not glazed. It's you know the shape is there but the the half round portion is not glazed. What is it? Brick masonry. It's just the shape extends above the corners of the window. It's called food for thought. Yeah.

I like it though. Max, uh, well, upon my initial review, I thought you were almost replicating this parking lot facing side to mimic what's existing. Um, but I draw the same consensus that Rich and maybe Carolyn had with the um, semicircle arches. It kind of mimics the um, single family residence that's around the corner and that sits out. It's very stark. Mhm.

And then it was the um materiality that and maybe like the um headers on the windows uh downstairs. If that's all limestone, it doesn't really match the typology of the building's downtown. I guess the bigger question is, are you trying to mimic the architectural details that are on the Perry with this new building? We're trying to complement them. the the windows that does have that form side of the Perry. The thing about the Perry is it's all painted, so you don't see the actual bricks or the limestone that is there originally.

Well, there is limestone paint right on the corners. It looks like arches. I think I thought some of them were Well, either way, they're painted solid. So, yes, doesn't appear as brick or limestone. I think it's an upgrade to what's there. It's going to add to the character. Yeah, for sure.

I'm just surprised. I was down on site today taking some pictures, but like when you come off of um sort of like the south end of the Rose Garden and you have those big stairs coming down and then straight across is the gallery entrance. So now like people come down there and then they got to meander through the parking lot to get around to the north end where the entrance is on this. I was just wondering what your decision was for that.

That is one entrance. There is an entrance on the back of the building which is actually the ADA entrance for people coming from the the Perry that that's where the elevator core is back there too. So, will you guys re be rerouting that back stair or will there be new stairs coming off like the northwest corner of the Rose Garden to get people from one venue over to another? Keep the one and add another one further out Rose Garden to have another path down.

Okay, Bob, you had a question. Something on the question was just a clarification on the east side the arches or semi arches whatever they will be um is that that's contrasting limestone instead of the brick. That's what was intended. Okay, that's good. This breaks it up. I was a little confused on the drawings by some of the red lines over in the rose garden. Are there any changes other than this proposed staircase, additional staircase? Any other changes in the rose garden that they try that we're trying to highlight?

No, nothing in this plan that we're looking at doing landscaping stuff and Perry improvements in the future. Obviously, that site would come here for any necessary reviews. And just for my information then, the intention would be once this event center is built not to have the temporary structure in the rose garden for weddings and such. Yeah, it would significantly limit the amount of tents that are out there. The whole purpose for this structure is to have, you know, tents that come and go in weather that you're always playing against and moving not only into a secured summertime location, but also be able to expand that through the winter time as well.

So, the garden will be mostly a garden from this point on. Yeah, mostly back to the rose garden it was. Gosh, I'll miss hearing all the wedding music. Any other discussion? There's still a rooftop.

Um I if I could just make one suggestion and you can you know it's neither here nor there, but having a few windows in those b in those spots on the east elevation where you there isn't a function on the other side um where it opens up to the main banquet hall. I think it would be nice to have windows in those spots. So if people are at the hotel that are guests of the event, they can look over out their room and be like, "Oh, the lights are still on. There's people over there." Like, we can head back over and still party or whatever. Where otherwise there are no windows and you can't see what's happening inside the the event center itself. Was that something? Well, that comes back to this the openings on that. Oh, that's right.

Been there already many times. If we if we had the opportunity to put windows on that wall, we would So there can't be a certain fire rated type of assembly. Not when you're on right on the property line. We could move off at 6 in. Well, we're conforming with trying to be up at property line. Rock hard place.

Yeah, totally. All right. Well, thank you. Um the circulation, you drew a good point to that was a nice if there was like a recession on that parking lot side. You could directly draw from the rose garden to the to this function. That would be nice, too. We understand the difficulties. And we talked about, you know, can you move the property line and do being able to move property to this side and that side? Well, as soon as you move that, then you got to conform differently on Rose Street. So, it became a circular

problem. Unfortunately, the you know, the zoning for downtown was to be really building to building along the bot. You'll see them dancing on the roof. Oh, for sure. Um, I had a question. I had a question on deck lighting. Should there be a plan for deck lighting for the rooftop deck? Yes. Does that follow within? Yeah. When they get the the drawings get more advanced. Any other discussion?

So, uh, what are we doing with Rick's comments regarding the segmental? That's something I I I understood it to be a suggestion for their consideration, not suggestion consideration. So there's no consensus about uh what to do. All right. So if we do this, can we add a u a condition that a deck lighting plan will be provided?

That would be a condition. Yes. Okay. Are we ready to make a motion? Well, I've done them all tonight. So, you can do this one. Takes two for three already. That's right. Come on. [Music]

Mute to approve the site plan on 575 West Mitchell Street. No, we're on I'm sorry. Page six. On page six. Well, we're actually page five. It starts. We want to do the motion to approve the conditions. There we go. Um 410 Rose Street. Well, you actually have to say it. I have to say it.

Just read it. 52-19-05-101-2 that demolishes the existing building and replaces it with the new structure based on the general site plan uh C1.2 dated 918 2025. Uh the architectural elevations A-1.0 and A- 2.0 dated 820 2025 uh with the following conditions and number the height's already been height only condition Bob would be that uh they provide a plan for the rooftop lighting just that so the sign plan has been sent to the zoning administrator

okay and they already addressed the so they got the grease trap yes they've addressed all utilities in the alley okay all Right. So, you just have to do the deck lining, but they're going to present a plan. And when are they presenting the plan? At the at what meeting? Well, what they'll do is when they're ready to submit for zoning permit and they have all the construction drawings and architectural drawings. Then we have a development team meeting to review all that. Now, we just got to go through the zoning administrator. So any neighbors when would they come have time to comment on that?

There is no public comment. There's no public hearing on it because it's a site plan review. Okay. Well, I'll second the motion. All right. So Bob made the motion. Seconded it. Um roll call vote. Demer, yes. Reberg, yes. Meridian, yes. Moss, yes. Newman, yes. Smith left abstain. Uh Wilma, yes. Ros, yes. Motion passes. All right. Thank you. Thanks for coming. Thank you. Thank you. Nice to have somebody well travel.

Yeah. All right. I do have one question. The pergola does not the building. What is that? the current on on the rooftop. They counted it from the the elevator elevator shaft was the highest spot. Okay. Yeah, pergo was lower than the elevator shaft. Elevator shaft the top of it. Thank you. Certainly look forward to it. Thank you.

Okay. Uh, moving on to five, new business C, case number 25425, site plan review, 575 West Mission Street, Jimmy John's, and we have Jason Rally, the project manager. Jared D'vor is making Yeah, there it is. Jared D'vor is also project manager. And you're the engineer at least. All right. also site pavon review. [Music] So John, do you want to start?

I can. Okay.

This is probably is one of our interesting projects that we've been working on for several months. Uh it involves the Bay Urgent Care property over on 575 Mitchell Street. And if you take a look on page one of the staff review, there's an aerial that shows the proposed lot which is identified as 100-037. [Music] This is kind of a balancing act between the parking ordinance which we all know that at this time does not allow for it only with based on for a restaurant is based on the number of seats with there's no extra parking for employees. And we had to also take into consideration the parking needs because the person that owns the lot that would be sold for the Jimmy John's is the person that owns the urgent care facility. So we have to manage both parking requirements. So we can't create a lot which then is going to end up with a parking deficiency. The site plan meets the zoning requirements in terms of setbacks a lot with maximum height stories all street parking. The issue that I want to discuss, Lisa and I are kind of we acknowledge the issue, but we would prefer that planning commission kind of take this into consideration. in the staff analysis based on Lisa's computations with the urgent care facility.

She had to look at the floor plan in order to determine what part of the facility the floor plan you'll see that that's that's this what part of the floor plan is used for medical office and what part of the floor plan is used for urgy care because they have different parking requirements. The medical use is four parking spaces per thousand gross and the urgent care is one per employee plus two per exam rooms. Now, in Lisa's initial computation, she counted I have a color copy. Yours is in gray, but she counted the hallway that serves the urgent care, which are these four exam rooms that uh these would be the exam rooms that would face the Jimmy John's. So, they'd be the north elevation. She counted that hallway as part of the medical office or as part of the Yes, the medical office. However, that hallway only serves the urgent care room. If you deduct If we deduct the square footage from that hallway from the medical use and assign it to the urgent care, then there is not a deficit of one parking space for the for the Bay Street or the Bay urgent care facility. So taking that hallway which only serves those exam urgent care and applying that to the urgent care portion of the building nets out that the total spaces for this

facility would be 23 and they would be providing 23. So they would be meeting all of the parking requirements. So we came to that conclusion and I said, you know, this is really an issue that the planning commission needs to decide. Does the hallway go with urgent care and does the hallway go with the medical office. But the way I look at it, the hallway strictly serves the urgent care. It should be assigned on urgent care. So that's the reason for this and I wanted to review that because I knew that based on my her computations where it shows a difference of a negative one. It's because of how we allocate that one hallway. With that being said, we can discuss that and get done with the review. the the criteria that's in the standards for site plan review have been met. Uh there are some engineer comments uh regarding where the exact water lines is located. Engineering does not have for this property an exact location where the water line runs. They know where the meters are at the or caps at, but they don't know which direction the water. They the applicant would have to figure that out. The sanitary sewer needs to be located and televised to make sure that it's large enough to handle the potential waste effluent from the restaurant. and Jason would like them to verify their electrical requirements to make sure that the existing transformer which is on the property is on the the Bay urgent care property adjacent to the proposed Jimmy and John's is sized large enough

and we've asked the applicant to submit a snow management plan because it looks like when they get snow they're going to have to haul it off site. They're aware of it. They've discussed it with us. uh they've had the plans reviewed by MDOT which has given them approval and the interesting thing I want to want you to I want to note for the planning commission is you look at their site plan you'll see the rightway line for the highway runs in obviously into the property MDOT is allowing them to build a small patio for two table and outdoor seating in the rightway So, they've already reviewed that. MDOT's already signed off on that. That's unusual, but MDOT is allowing that to occur for this to this property. And of course, the applicant knows that they are in the rightway. In the future, if MD dot needs the rightway, the patio is toast. But for now, MDOT has said it's okay to do that. Uh we have noted with the applicant even though they've had this reviewed by MDOT, MDOT is going to issue the appropriate uh curb cuts. We have told them that this is going to be a interesting lefthand turning movement outside of this restaurant, particularly during the daytime and more so during the summer months. It's almost going to be impossible to turn off that.

Yeah, exactly.

But MD dot for some reason has said, you know, it's okay. Now, I if you if you go across the other side of Charle Boy at the McDonald's, you'll notice that the McDonald's has right in and right out. MDOT did not require it here, but that's something that the planning commission can can discuss. uh they have we have provided them uh the landscaping recommendations that we've used with Panera. They have agreed to implement that as part of their project. So now we have two properties on both sides of the street that will be landscaped the same to help create a better entry into the city. They have I will note for the planning commission. I provided them a copy of the proposed lighting ordinance for dark sky. They have used that to prepare their photometrics in terms of the flat leaves, the push candles based on the lighting zone. So they actually are addressing meeting the proposed dark sky. This will be a pilot case uh to take a look at what that will look like when implemented. Uh, I know that the planning commission probably has some questions. Both the agent for the owner is here as well as the civil engineer and they're here to answer any questions. But in a nutshell, that's the that's a summary of the project. They have Lisa has already told them that they're going to have to submit a different signage plan because this is their prototypical elevations, but the the signage is going to have to meet city code and they they they're fully aware. So with that, Madam Chair, I'll turn it

over to you. Okay. I have a question for John. Okay, John. Um the landscaping around urgent care looks a little light to me compared to what I thought we approved. Could you comment on that?

Yeah, that's a great question. uh try to uh Lisa and I of course when we got into this a couple of months ago Lisa is very good at pulling all the prior approvals together and it was before my time but she kind of gave me a history that it went through this was originally approved as a medical office then it was then turned into a urgent care and now it's a hybrid medical office urgent care and there were some landscape cpaping plans that were submitted here and there. Lisa Lisa's opinion is that the landscaping plan or the the landscaping that was installed if if it's not what was included in in previous plans

and it won't conform to what is being proposed for in front of Jimmy Johns or in front of Panera? No, it will not. uh you know, so I think there could be an opportunity here uh for the planning commission since this is the same property owner is that there's not much they don't have much frontage the way they're building is cut around the corner. This would be an opportunity to take and maybe extend that landscaping over into the front of their building so it's all tied together. Well, and the second part of that was getting a fence to fence off the school was like pulling teeth from the prior owner. Yeah. from the prior from the prior development

and the the the applicant is going to put up a fence and we've recommended that it be the same type and model so the fence between both of the properties looks the same. The the intent here is to make and not not two years later.

Yeah. To make this a consistent development. That's the intent. So, and uh I will say the applicant's been very good to work with in terms of addressing all of these various issues uh because we've had to go back and forth between the proposed site and the urgent care site to make everything work. Um but yes uh to answer your question Charlie I think this would be an opportune time uh if the planning commission so desires to add a condition regarding because right now it's the same owner that the landscaping be just extended. You'll note that on the site plan they're going to divide the property. So the urgent care is going to get eight parking stalls that are adjacent to the Jimmy John's properties.

Correct. But there's a small turnout like the last stall they back out. So there's an area that's indented into the MD right away which they have improved and they've already extended the landscaping pretty much up to the corner of the building already. So it's just kind of another 25 ft of wrapping it around primarily. Well, it looks tight to me, but the I see that the owner of the property has submitted a letter saying 23 parking spaces they've determined would be adequate. That's correct. There's plenty of shields there. So the

the only other concern that I had and I don't mean to do but the only other concern I had was if I just cannot see allowing anything for the exit other than a right-hand turn in interest I I well the entrance the entrance I agree but I that's not our call that's m that's one can we suggest that left interest only I am I'm sorry but I'm I am stopped all the time about Culver and I said, "Wait a minute. Culver is Bear Creek Township, but we are going to have even worse. I live not very serious accident."

Yeah. You it you know you you cannot there's an accident at Culver's at least once or if not three or four times a week because of that left turn lane that's so close to the corner. I would say that no left in no left out. I mean, it's only right out if if we can do it. I don't know if we can make that suggestion that they do a facing study or whatever. I'm not just like McDonald, you're going to get idiots are going to turn left into there anyway, right? Oh, I know. But it would be nice to have signage or something that prohibits it, right? Because now can they enter Jimmy John's room urgent care? That's my thought. That's what I thought. That's completely cut off.

That's what I thought. So there won't be any accidents in between. It's going to you know it's going to because people come around Charlotte that thing is already full right all the time. I come this way all the time at Bill and Carol somebody's turn left to urgent care I will stop because if you're going into urgent care you need them and I'm not I'm not causing any problems but we get people backed up.

Oh yeah. And it's just that is going to be I just think it's you know there there is what the code says but common sense would say to me that you should not be you you know I don't know if we make a turnaround or whatever for them. I I I really like to see something develop there, don't get me wrong, but the way that is set up now, I just think we're asking for, you know,

rich is kind of related. Um, a lot of fast food places if food's not ready, they have you park off to the side. Is is there allowance for that? And if that's the case, that would make it even more difficult to There's one spot up here. Number one spot. Is that what that's for? That's to make that's to make the That is Yeah, that is not um that is not for that. Typically for the Jimmy John's, there isn't waiting at the window. You get there, it's ready fast.

Freaking fast. They might be waiting at this one. Um, make no mistake about it, Rich. That that parking space is added because they needed 11 spaces. Oh, I

that sorry if I go ahead. We were actually struggling to get as many parking spots as we could. It wasn't more so just trying to meet the the demand for the ordinance, but trying to make sure there's adequate parking for employees and customers. Um, I could fill you in a little bit on all the conversations we had with MDOT if if you're curious because that was kind of one of the first conversations we had before we even met John and Lisa. Because of how congested that intersection is and because of the current configuration, we were struggling to figure out how to get this to work. Um, the biggest concern MDOT had was that south driveway. If you look at sheet C1, kind of shows the existing site plan. I believe it's probably the first.

Um, oh, if we go up right there,

well, their biggest concern was that South Drive and ensuring that we don't have traffic for Jimmy John's and the urgent care still coming through that drive. So shutting that drive off to the urgent care was paramount and shifting it further to the north to gain that separation was their their main concern. Um and frankly first was where they wanted the sole drive to be for the development. After being up here in the summer as we were going through the planning process and seeing it, we spoke to them, hey, we can't have people coming in and out there. it just isn't going to work. So, we had talked to them about pushing the second entrance as far north as we could to provide an exit. Now, understanding the traffic post here, there aren't going to be a lot of left turns out of there. You know, we have similar situations in our town in the summer and it's you just go right. But from a traffic and safety standpoint, their main concern was shifting the southern drive as far north as possible, separating it from the urgent care and having it as a one-way entrance only.

What about the exit? That makes sense. The exit shifting that north as far as possible to gain that separation from the intersection, but it's still allowing the left turn. Yes. What's your thought about that? Um, you know, I think it would probably function fine six months out of the year, but understanding what traffic is like in the summer, it's it's just it's not going to be possible. It's quicker to take a ride and come back around. Not even in the summer anymore to go get rid. Yeah. I think what's prohibitive is that we don't have any Michigan left turns.

I don't think the highway even allows. There's no space. You're right. They'd have to turn right on the Jackson, right? And then come behind the school and come out at the light at Charvoy. So you go around the block. I mean,

well, and like I said, during our first initial meeting with them, it was a single shared access point at that southern drive, which I mean, I think would be a worst case scenario for everyone. So, we worked with them to split the drives and and try to direct traffic um with some some good points from John on flows and and internal sight maneuverability of of getting the traffic through the site and and out as safely as possible.

So, right now, if I I just want to recap, did you say no left turn end is planned? In other words, that on C2, the southmost arrow was going into into there, you could only make it in from right. You can't you could not turn in there from the left turn. Is that your is that you could turn in? Yeah, it was not restricted to a right in with MDOT. I would turn left into the urgent care foot, right? That's what

um could you elaborate on what the separation between the proposed new parking lot and two new parking lots is? Is there a fence there or what's there's not much room for plantings? No. And that was actually one thing I'd like to discuss a little bit. Great. There's a grade there too. Yeah. Not much because right now they're connected parking lots. Yeah. But that's after you get to work initial. Yeah. the the grade change. The urgent care parking lot will end up being um I think in some spots up to two feet above.

So they'll be very separate. Um in terms of the the landscaping, I guess I did just have some questions on the I guess suggested plan we received. Um when we worked with John and Lisa early on, we received a copy of the Panera plan. Um their site looks to be close to 1.32 acres and they have 1,712 plantings. Our site is about a quarter of an acre and is I guess suggesting 623 plantings on a kind of plantings per acre. It's almost double the amount of the Panera. And in looking at what the mature size of some of these plantings are, I think we're possibly going a bit overboard. I have no issue with matching the plantings that Nar did. No problem planting more than enough to be digitally app. Obviously, you know, we spend a lot of time and energy in these and want it to look very nice, but I think looking at the density of some of these, it it seems like it might be a little overhill. I mean, if we use the same kind of plantings per acre as Panera, we'd be looking at around 350. I think it's I guess I'm not arburist but in my opinion more than enough for a quarter acre site. There's

314 onegon pots going in around the dumpster there which is about 180 square ft. Just wondering if maybe there's any discussion there. Similar to um the first applicant on the south property line there we have two to three feet and a couple foot grade change. There's 46 of local grasses that you know seemed upward to be grown in kind of whip.

What's a Jimmy John standard planning amount? Um, you know, typically it's just required by ordinance. I mean, we generally have honestly 25 to 30 bushes and trees at a maximum. I've I've done a lot of different projects in a lot of different communities and I've never We've do massive multifamily developments and 600 plus for quarter acres seems a bit

that seems like a lot. I don't even have that many inventory and I have a lot of plants. I mean, again, we're more than happy to work with the city and and kind of go above and beyond, but if one it seems like kind of a a maintenance nightmare, which obviously isn't an excuse to not do it, but I don't know. It seems like finding that many in such a small area could just lead to the main thing for me is easy care, you know, because these kind of plantings

don't often get much maintenance. They don't get the maintenance they deserve. Owners never will put into it what should we get into it once the stuff is the half of the stuff usually dies and it's never replaced. the the the plan that was prepared by Crestle Pools and Landscape Park. She she's very good at her plant material. You can see along the property line with the school, she's got a no more lawn area with ecoturf, which is a lowmaintenance seed mix. Then along the property line with Jimmy Johns and urgent care what she specified in there that's pretty much going to be that needs to be drought resistant because that's a food environment. She specified a plant that would survive within that area. Uh I'm happy to re-re but I don't think she went too much overboard than what was at Panera. Well, well, that was my my point was was going to be that I I'm more in favor of stuff that is hardy and going to survive with less acquired maintenance than more plants to begin with that look nice for the first year and then aren't there next year.

Well, does this have an irrigation system? Yes. But not in some of these areas where there's going to be drought resistance. Well, in using those grasses as an example on the south property line, I mean, that area there is about 112 feet and there's 46 of those grass plants that I mean, you've seen those. Those get all of three feet wide. So you're knocking on the door of 140 150 ft of plantings crammed into So I'm all about creating a visual buffer. I just

I think you're talking about that same elevation change that I was referring to between the parking lots. So um are plantings really sufficient to keep somebody from rolling over the edge or shouldn't there be some kind of a fence or stronger barrier? put a fence there because that's going to get that'll get destroyed. I'd rather I'd rather have plant material that somebody can, you know, hit their bumper over rather than a fence that they're going to It looks like there's bumpers there. The cement bumpers. Those aren't those are the cement bumpers. And concrete bumpers, too.

You know, I'm more than happy if they have a landscape architect that can talk to Tresa and they they can decide if they want to limit some of this. But literally, these are the plant materials that were used across the street. Well, and I'm I guess to be transparent, I'm fine with the materials that were selected. I think it'll look great. I just I mean, if we went with the same kind of density as the Panera with the same materials, we'd be cutting the number on this plant in half. Yeah. I think equal density it would be. That would bring us down to about 350 pots. Yeah. Well, and then seems sufficient to me.

Right. We're also talking about continuing on to the urgent care property. That's right. Yeah. So, I don't know how that that's arranged, but the the owner owns both properties. So, yeah, I don't take some off of this. And well I presume the owner is going to have to develop these eight parking spaces as part of their cost and and they could handle the plants that are no as the as part of your development.

Yeah. as the owner and I haven't had a ton of conversations about that, but to even start the conversation as a I guess a contingency as a requirement of our purchase agreement, we were required to provide them a additional parking spots because they couldn't lose their their parking. Um that's why they bought that building. That means you're responsible for that part of the landscaping as well. That's your assumption.

Well, we're responsible for those eight parking spots and whatever landscaping we do around that area. I don't I don't know about any additional landscaping on the existing building. How how would that get arranged, John? If we made it contingent, we'd have to put it as a contingency landscaping along the Bay Urgent Care Facility and then they would have to Are you talking about what shows here on this block or you talking on the south end of the building? Talking about here's that here's that cutout car here. The car here would turn and back into this, right?

So that's why we extended the landscaping to right provide that buffer. They would have to take extend this landscaping down and then around the corner around the corner. So it's about 25 maybe 30 feet. Okay. So they'd have to extend it. They'll have to be if you put it as a condition, they'll have to work it out with Dr. Sour who owns the all the property. Uh like I said, I'm happy to they have an LA that can talk to Tresa and figure out, you know, you know, modifying the numbers. I'm okay with it as long as we mirror what we did what what happened across the street. Yeah.

Yeah. And I guess that's all I'm asking for is a little I guess flexibility in the end to work with staff to come to a finalized landscape plan that's not exactly this but understanding the plan materials will be the same as the Panera just might not be 600 of them hopefully. Rick Are we ready for a change of subject? Yeah. Uh I think so. Um go ahead.

Uh I'm interested to hear what your what's your thoughts are your plans along this long diagonal north edge of the property where the the playground of the school. I'm not quite clear from this landscape plan. I see the nomal lawn area which is quite narrow strip there. And I see a reference somewhere on one of the other plans I think to the fence, the school of fence that's there, but there's like a two and a half foot grade change along a portion of that. And so with the paved edge that close to the property line and that close to that drop off, you're going to have to build some kind of retaining wall to hold the

Yeah, I don't see any reference to that here in the plan. when it went out on site after getting the survey and looked at it a little closer. Um there is a a slight retaining wall there now that's kind of been buried and and over. Um we're thinking right now we can make the grays work with a a rolled curb there on that drive-thru and the the fence to match the urgent care. Um but you know old curb being an asphalt uh less than a normal concrete. Yeah, it's like a 4 inch curve, not a full 6 in curve, but

and then that area will be fully fenced. Um and talking to to John, that was something that was Yeah, that's clearested. I mean, it's it's right there on the school playground. The edge of the pavement is basically right at the property line. John, um, now that this parking shift will take place, will the urgent care facility have to submit a snow removal plan as well? They No, I They have someplace to put the snow. They Well, it's been there for how many years now? They seem like Well, they've had they've been able to pull it out, push it on the other property.

Yeah. Well, we could ask for We asked them for snow management plan. So yeah, we can we can put that in a condition as well that the doc has to provide one as well. I think that would be in his best interest as well as our own. You know, I think they have a little more room to work with than we do for sure back by the the dumpster. But, you know, it depends on the winner these days. That was certainly a conversation we've had and understanding that that's not going to be your normal snow plow bill here.

I do have one comment. Uh I was concerned about the patio and maybe the installation suggesting the installation of a aesthetic traffic grade ballard because the traffic right there is really concerning. Um, I would assume that you'd have one for the dumpster enclosure, too. Maybe something around that. Some ballards. Yeah. Yeah, there'll be ballards at the dumpster enclosure. Um, we have like a small athletic fence, but yeah, I don't think that's going to stop anything. So, yeah, that's a great idea though at the at least at the corner of the hoping aesthetic though and not,

you know, so yellow ball. Yeah. No, we typically we'll have ballards at the dumpster and we typically um for all of our projects have like a high-grade plastic cover um for Jimmy Johns usually they're black to kind of blend in with the building. McDonald's, I think, has a um some sort of CMU wrapped brick veneer um concrete post uh with this same fence that we were talking about. I think that might be a good I don't know. You guys don't have any brick on this building to get anyways. Something pretty. That's my comment.

We got one more thing to Okay. Um, any thought about a bike rack? Yeah, we could certainly add a couple bike racks. We could probably fit one or two back by the dumpster and and squeeze one into the patio. That would be a great idea. Is there a formula for that, John? Not in the new in the old code. The new code. Yes. Okay. Will that will that achieve with three um achieve it for uh based on Yeah. Yeah. I think if they if they're in agreement with putting in two or three that would be fine.

Meaning a rack for two that accommodates two or three bikes or I think they'd be the loops. Yeah. Half loop. Yeah. Ballard themselves the tree that's a bike ride could act as a ballard itself really like heavy duty around there I know think what happened at the hospital but they lost control playground at the playground semi roll over not within the last three months other side of

on on that yeah on the other corner but it certainly could happen on this court that you know, I don't know if I heard an answer to my question. Can the planning commission require a different wpping pattern as far as requiring only right hands and write outs or is that something? Well, that's yeah, that's that's a topic I wanted to discuss with that too before we because to me the left turn out is is a non-starter. Yeah, I I would suggest that as an absolute condition, John, we certainly we certainly that's at our purview. Okay, that's under that's your standard under ingress and ingress. Okay,

sent to you have a comment over there. I I was just inquiring from John. Um it it from a planning commission standpoint obviously the permit agents that MD got through this and this was reviewed in great detail with them. I guess I'm not clear on where where there's a where there's whose authority. Well, we live the planning commission. Yes, we intimately know these these streets. Does the planning commission have

MDOT? I've seen it happen. Yes. I mean it says right here in standards cur cut locations in G shia be subject to final review and approval by the city shall meet the standards. I mean we can we can inform MD dot that the planning commission is part of the site plan is only is requiring right turnout only because it has to do with the site. Yeah. Now we can't we can't require that meant that M dot put up a no turn left sign for the southbound traffic. Yeah. They won't. They won't. They've already given approval for that possibility. Does the city have streets they maintain themselves? City owned streets, you know,

that's where that application takes place. I I will I'll give you kind of a similar

we were we were in we're still in the process of reviewing a taco bill down in Grand Traverse County and M do like these guys did. They went to M. first and MD dot said, "Yeah, do this, do that, do that." So they followed MDOT, had all the curb cuts in it. The the township down there required the applicant to do a traffic impact assessment, not a study, an assessment. The assessment came back and then the township had their traffic engineer review and comment and the comments were not favorable relative to the curb cuts. That was sent back to MDOT. MDOT has now said we agree with that review and we're recommending that they change the curb cuts now. So, initially they said yes. Now that the assessment was done, they're saying they're going to reconsider and probably withdraw some of the curb cuts that they had previously recommended. We haven't gone down the road here about a traffic impact assessment. I don't know if it's really required at this point, but if the planning commission wants right turnout only and the applicant says we need left and right, then the planning commission at some point has the authority to say we want a traffic impact assessment done by a traffic engineer that's got not only PE but POE credentials to do the modeling. to see if this will work or not. I mean, that's your options.

And I think that's in some in some ways, I know it's more costly. That's all I really believe to the applicant because if it's not going to work, it's the way it's laid out. It's not going to work. And I'd rather see them not put a curb cut in and then it not work. You know, I I could put a condition in for the traffic. I mean, I guess the question that the planning commission before they make that decision could ask the applicant, right? Is that a deal breaker for the applicant, the person that wants to develop this, if it's right out only?

I mean, I think it's definitely a hindrance. I think if you, you know, look at the site and look at, you know, there are times in opportunities where that left turn is feasible. There are times where you could wait there for a while and there are times where you're probably better off taking a right. But again, I go back to at least in my experience and not knowing the ordinance as well as as you all do, but typically on a roadway that's dictated by MDOT or county road commission, those decisions fall under their purview. Now, if that's not the case here and the the ordinance said different, then the ordinance says different. I mean, but we didn't see that. So, I have a question for John. For the Panera Bread parking lot, it's north exit onto West Mitchell. It used to be right turn only. Is it still right exit only?

The exit is not. No. Jackson Street is Jackson Street is and they have an easement, but you'd have to have to be crazy to try and turn left. That driveway. It's pretty It's pretty clear onto Charlotte Avenue. No, onto the North. Okay. Northern. Yeah. Mitchell Street. But yeah, I don't think anybody does. Yeah. What happens is stops and the other lane doesn't whatever it was. Friday at like 11 o'clock at night. Yeah, I can go there. But I have done it.

And then you decided Jackson Street, which no left turning off of that. And people do it anyway, but it's no there's clearly more no left-hand turn. There's problems even now because you can't when people want to turn into the new interest of Oldfield and there it backs up now. Yeah, just trying to make a left and that's a long ways stop and I'm just thinking this is very close to the intersection, right? Flying around the corner from way. Well, that's the thing. People coming off of Charlotte Avenue. You can't even you can't always see them. Well, then you got two lanes off Charlway Avenue both turning

turning. And then you also have rates of randomly people turning right off of whatever that street is. What's that street? Is it still Charlott boy Avenue across the street? I think so. They're randomly chosen and that's very close to

a pass. I would recommend but the pl you know if the planning commission is right out only then I would suggest that if the planning commission wants to make a condition that's right in only then I would add to that condition that that can be changed subject to if the applicant wants to submit a traffic impact assessment for review But I don't like dictating. I mean, I'd rather go down that path that this is what your preference is. And if they can if they can support data that suggests that they can do a left, that's the that's the tactic I would take. I don't like necessarily recommending that everybody do a traffic impact assessment because they they take a couple of months and it is costly and it's going to take a month on our end to review it and probably another couple weeks for MDOT to comment. So this this process could take another three to four months. So I'd rather have that be their decision rather than yours. So, I mean, if you feel and I agree with you, turning left that this close to the intersection is going to be problematic.

You just not paint that left turn arrow on the driveway. Yeah. When you get when you're talking about the Panera bread, that access point on to 31 that's directly across from what we're talking about. Is that a full access point or is that full access? It is. Yeah. Okay. Shouldn't be, but it is. Yeah. I almost die all the time. Yeah. Holding on there. Anybody with a brain doesn't use it. Okay. And that was just recently redeveloped within the last year, right? They see a lot better. They didn't change the curb cuts. They

among among other things, the right-hand turn lane onto Charlotte Boy Avenue is frequently backed up plugging that that exit. So, uh, it's just it's Well, I guess I'm just I'm wondering what's what's different for for us than was different from them a year ago. Traffic low direction. I think you got two lanes turning right at relatively high speed. Right. Right. I mean, those heavily loaded logging trucks coming around that curve are significant. Well, I'd also be concern concerned about people just turning into the end entrance lane. It's so close to that corner. People are coming around. Yeah.

There's not enough room to put up a right turn lane and still have no right. All right. I'm going to go ahead. I think you're going where I'm going. I think we're in consensus that nobody here wants a left turn out on the exit. That's correct. Could we make that a conditional?

Yes. But I would say that it's right in right out only and then we would use the language that John suggested where you know they can apply for a traffic assessment and review it and you know if the if everyone agrees that oh it is a possibility and it's safe then then we change but if it comes out no you know our gut is what the expert says we know what what I don't know if we decided Right in. No, we didn't. Well, was saying he supported both. No, I just was right. I I said right in, I made a mistake. So, right out only.

People are going to go left in and that's not as that center lane is turn lane the whole scratch. We want it three times a day. And um I think that we have to leave up to people's good sense or not good sense. But that exit, I think it has to be a right only to be safe. All right, I'm going to open up to the public for

uh yeah, Ted Paul 603 Lake Street for the developers. I have served on the plan commission and as mayor four terms in the city. I've lived here 35 years. I don't know how long you people have lived here. Um this wasn't a good idea probably 35 years ago. The last 10 years it's absolutely ridiculous. I totally agree with your comments. Um, maybe I wish it were right turn and right turn out, but I agree with that either in and right out. I I beg the planning commission and the developers to do that. You can talk about landscaping and bushes. This is a real serious issue. That Culver's thing is a disaster. It's scary. It's dangerous. It should not happen. That developers have pointed out almost antagonistically maybe that you've allowed some things in the past and I say great and you learn from your mistakes. You absolutely certainly I believe have the ability as a planning commission to determine the ingress and eress of these sites for safety. You don't ask MD dot to make your it's been given to the city in the Michigan zoning enabling act. That's what it is. Now the if the MD dot said that you could not do something we you couldn't overrule MD dot. So MD dot will allow them to have right or lefts. But if MD dot said right only, you couldn't say no, we're going to do a left because it's on MDOT's road. So I do not believe that um MDOT makes the decision here. They're allowing them to do this plan and submit this to you. They're allowing them to submit this plan to you for consideration. MDOT's not stopping them. So there it is. So you have to decide if you want to allow this extremely dangerous situation. 50% of the people here, I believe, in the summer don't actually live here. There was a comment made that well people probably won't make a lot of left turns. No, in the summer when they get at these places when they want to turn left, they get in that left turn lane and now they're stuck there. There's cars behind them, there's cars in the right, it's a huge problem. They go out halfway. There's

trucks coming around the corner. It's a bad thing. We don't want people to get hurt. This is citizens really care about this issue. I work at the hospital and I've been my whole life up there as um some other people have here. Um, so I just feel rather strong. The speeds on this, in case anyone I live here, I go there every day. The speeds on this road are posted 35. Yeah, I mean, I've talked to the city manager about it, but we do there, but um the traffic is 45 to 50 a lot of the time through there, especially um earlier in the morning, school time. It's crazy out there. Um the congestion in the summer is unreal. Um that's so this site um I like what they're doing. There's some you know this site looks horrible now. They've got a great business. This site just has some restrictions to what it does well and work if you can work with them. You could make the site work for this. People will learn how to get in there. Will someone make a left-hand turn? Maybe at night when there's no traffic, someone might. But at least most people will know when it's right turn only out. They'll most people will try to do the right thing. And if they're tourists and confused and don't know the traffic, they won't go into that left lane, which they could do under this plan, and get stuck there and get this terrible situation. So, I beg really the developers to say, "Man, this is not a good idea when and I we live here. We see what happens. Please do the right thing."

Thank you. uh a past capacity planning commission did make that decision for the McDonald's development right not far away on the opposite side of Charlotte is all right situation suggested motion based on all the well no we still have something there we're not there yet so we need to consider and I'm looking for that piece of paper le's interpretation of the hallway. I've got that as a condition determination. Okay. So, are you want to discuss that? Are we all on board? I'm fine. I'm fine.

Okay. So my my the condition I had with the site plan just so it's part of the record is that the planning commission decide decid has decided that the aisle in the urgent care that serves the urgent care medical rooms is assigned to the urgent care uh part of the practice. The applicant can resubmit a landscaping plan for review to the city write out only Unless the applicant submits a traffic impact assessment supporting the lefthand turn. I would put that on them.

Uh the they will submit a snow management plan for their property and for urgent care. They are dividing the property up. Got to be some responsibility from urgent care. They're going to install Ballard, a traffic decorative ballard at the patio and they're going to provide three flank loops uh be located on the site. That's that's currently what I the landscaping is extended and the landscaping extended to the corner of Charoy Avenue.

The corner of Charoy and Spring Street. Thank you. You go around the building. It's it it's the the front facing. Well, it's at an angle diagonal. So, it's the it's the corner. Yes. I mean, we're not buying any of that property just to put it, right? No, has to do it. the the owner of the property the condition of felling the property he has to fulfill his original landscape plan which he didn't he can he can contact us and we'll talk

well we want to change it so that those corners match with plantings we don't want we want to get notifications this is four corners it's the address of the town so I understand a little concerned I don't know. We understand it's not your responsibility. It's his responsibility. Is that just a violation of him not following through on our approved site plan? Yeah. Well, this is the this is the dilemma is that this is the second owner and the first owner that didn't install per plan. It was the first owner that took us how many years to get the fence installed.

Great. the current the current owner has been somewhat cooperative in terms of working on on a lot of these different nuances that we've had with this project. If I may just to sweeten the deal, could we theoretically have the number of plants on the plan for the Jimmy John's and well I think that we have established that Teresa will talk to a landscape architect of their choosing and they will discuss what happens. Yeah. I wouldn't pretend to know what that would be. Okay, though I have eight conditions, Madam Chair.

Okay. I I I I have a few too. Let me just check my So, the traffic baller at patio. There were they ballards for the um trash dumpster and on page 5J, the trash um It's not observed but but the architect will include the details of the trash dumpster in the final construction

with with the landscape condition removable. All right, we took fixed we made the agreement on the refining the square footage. Can I ask question? Yeah. Is there going to be any consideration for uh escrow andor limits on construction that we've discussed for past?

Sure. Is there going to be any consideration for escros or uh or time limits or construction zoning permits and so forth? Come to play with the brownfield. Well, the the timing now has been resolved by the zoning amendment that went to city council regarding the timing between the zoning permit and construction. I thought that was just zoning board of appeals. No, that's that's timing. The original zoning is permit as well. Okay. Uh that didn't change was it till 12 months. Yeah. 18 months. 18 months. 18. You guys said you guys you guys wanted 18. It was the ZBA that was between the but it affected the base for

starts open. It affects both the ZBA and the and the the the build issuance of the building permit. So there you have three years eight. Yeah. Yeah. 36 months total. But there's no ZBA here, right? So they get the zoning permit goes. Uh we did have some conditions that were on page six. That's the city engineering comments. Okay.

And install land. Well, we got the landscaping covered. The perimeter fence the same style and model as Charlotte Boy Avenue. And the final site plan, which sign plan, which I mentioned has got to go to the to Lisa probably to the sign committee. So those are those were already in the staff review and I'll add the additional uh nine that I have. So they'll be roughly about 12 12 conditions as part of the site plan. What I repeat my question. What about an escrow?

We you can ask for an escrow in the in the proposed code. We are going to have escrow and performance guarantees but as part of this process you could if you want you well I just wanted to know the sense of the planning commission as to whether that's something that we should consider in this case or wait until the uh new new rules are set up to the planning commission. Typically an escrow goes for site conditions. So the escrow would take care of we'd have they'd have to file an escrow way of shy bond or cash that would cover all of the installation of the landscaping and the lighting. Does that is that something that the commission is interested in? I at this point

you think we have enough condition? I think we have enough. I mean, you know, to be honest with you, we kind of ran into a little bit of a snag with the developer on the right aid, not the Panera because they're just a tenant. And, you know, they were kind of backing off like, well, we don't want to do all the landscaping stuff. And we said, okay, that's fine. We're going to pick the phone up and call the building department and tell them not to give you a certificate of occupancy. It's just that our experiences recently have We've been monitoring that very critically less than satisfactory. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it goes back to No, no offense to these particular applicants and and I know where to find these guys. Well,

but we have we have 12 conditions. Aisles assigned to the medical office landscaping along the urgent will be extended along the urgent care facade. Right out only unless applicant submits a TIA that supports a lefthand turn. Revise the landscaping plan. snow management plan for both Jimmy John's and Bay Urgent Ballard's patio bike racks three and uh the the detail for the trap the trash dumpster plus they have to address the engineering comments in the staff review perimeter fence same style and model as sho boy and they have to submit a final site sign plan that that conforms to the city's current sign

so I In keeping with this, then would you reach out to the existing owner of the urgent care and say part of what we did tonight in order to advance Jimmy John's is you've got two requirements you need to deal with which is an extension of the landscaping and uh and the snow management plan. Yes. Because technically when they approve the site plan for repair that includes Jimmy John's property, right? So now that we should understand that's his issue to deal with us, not theirs. We will give it to Dr. S. I just ask the one question for clarification before we

just being a little bit jaded. In a worst case scenario, if you speak to the seller and he says, "I'm not going to do that." Then where does that leave us? Are we just out of luck and we can't buy this property? No, no. I I wouldn't with you. That's that's that's too that's too aggressive too. Well, we will talk to Dr. S. Okay. I just I want to make sure that as a contingency of sight plan, it seems like it's very much dependent on our success and we spend

and and what we will convey to the doctor is he's desirous to sell the property. He's changing technically the approved site plan for his project. Therefore, he has some responsibility to bring his site plan now into conformance. And that's the snow management plan and the landscaping plan that they never really completed. I can't imagine that'll be a problem. I'm hoping not. Yeah. So, what else is he going to do with an old garage? Uh we could use it as a parking lot, right? But we need to um have somebody make the motion. Sorry.

So Rick is going to make the motion. He already said it. Um and I need a second. Second. Okay. So Rick made the motion. Barley made his second. Rolls. Yes. Remember? Yes. Lydian, yes. Moss, yes. Newman, yes. Smith, yes. Miller, yes. Yes. Yes. Thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for

hopefully it won't take three years. [Music] I'll try sometimes. I don't know if Mr. Howard was still alive. Oh jeez. Gentlemen will chat. Yeah, we got we got some things to talk about. Thank you very patient.

All right. Zoning ordinance updates. Well, we we have we have the community character survey out. I think we're running close to maybe over a hundred so far. Great. That's great. We are getting responses. Is is that online? Yes, it's online. Are people like I've talked to people that know they know nothing about it. So, unless you go on the site, is there any other way of letting people know that? Well, we we we sent the first introduction out on the utility tax bills. Yeah, it's on the tax bill. It's on the website. It's on Facebook. We have hard copies down in the lobby. Um Okay. And it's okay to work.

Oh, please. And then I I'm going to talk good uh coverage in the news review. Then the news review had a nice coverage. And I'm going to talk to Sarah again about seeing if she can uh put it back on next next month's utility bill just to Sure. Good idea. Close it, outline it. We're getting responses every day. We get we get a handful that come in. Do people We have a Facebook page. Yes. So, do people subscribe to that Facebook page? Is that how it works? No. You know, it's just like you just connect. You just connect. So, you can't because people can subscribe to get our newsletter that we push out that just did it again the other day. I still

I don't know. There's something wrong with that technology, sir. Thanks, Tuski. Community chatter. Yeah, that's a good outlet. People love to post up on that. Have to be careful, right? What's it called? Community chatter. It's a public forum. Oh, it's good outlet. You're smiling. So, it must be it must be somewhat salacious. I follow. The problem is you put it out. How do you How do you problem? What? That's public. Oh, yeah. All right. Any any more zoning updates? Not on any of those.

No. Uh the only other update that I have for you, Shane, I forgot the date, but there's an open house coming up on the on the on the trail. Monday. Monday. Yeah. Okay. Oh, right. The evening, right? Monday we'll have an open house uh here from 4 to 5:30 and then the meeting starts at 6 where our consultant will be presenting at the public meeting but he'll have some concept boards set up in here. It's a come o open forum people can pop in pop out and look at the concepts and then we'll present at six o'clock during our regular meeting. that that that study is the draft study is available on the city's website if you want to download. This is Monday the 20th.

Yeah. Yeah. Couple hundred pages in Florida. 5:30 will be the open house. Yep. Right in here. That's on the trail. There's the trail. Yeah. Um no, the little travers will great. That's all I have. And then just sorry just sorry Jane go ahead.

Sorry I didn't mean to but just another reminder uh the October 27th training. So got many of you that have signed up. Uh just as a reminder MML will be here from 5:30 to 8:30 doing training in the council chambers. We'll have uh we'll have pizza and drinks and such uh for you as well. We were supposed to let Sarah know by the 20th, right? Um, was that the date? Yeah, I think so. Okay. We just been waiting for what my wife wants to do for help. So, okay. Unable to make it. So, I was just to say, Ted, do you have any updates from the zoning committee?

Commissioner comments. I missed the last meeting. I was able to watch it on video, which I really appreciated. The only thing I'd like you to consider when you had on video, it was a great discussion on this diagram. Oh, that was all over here, right?

It was, you know, people are going up pointing at it and it was I mean, I could kind of follow along because I had it, but if there is a way and maybe technology can't do it, but if there's a way, you know, people or whatever, you would show this. I don't know. It was just hard. It was a little more difficult follow you know I don't know public public member but right though I could keep up I knew what the I could look at the minutes I'm not going to comment the minutes because I wasn't here was fine which was a problem last time

um I passed out to everybody the highle summary of the inquiries that I made to various developers about the number of units and sizes of the individual units and you see that there there was only one developer who has been completely unresponsive either to Leaf's inquiries or to mine and that was for 13 316 East Lake Street. uh everybody else was fully cooperative, but if you begin to really get into the weeds and the details, uh the number of units that will be so-called workforce or uh less than 100% AMI is really very limited ac we're we're adding a lot of units and that's a good thing, but uh certain segments of the population are still not being served by the development that's underway of of particular surprise the old hotel del Rey which uh I had heard through the rumor mill was going to be workforce housing is market race rate housing which I assume

no that's not market rate it's what he told him that's not market rate he said an MEDC grant prohibits short-term rentals for two years otherwise he has no restrictions and he told me he was planning he hadn't assessed the rate structure yet but it was going to be Correct. So I that's the way the owner responded. What do you know? Yeah. It's not going to be in Michigan. Um I can get that number. I mean these are going to be small studio apartments. So they're not going to rent for, you know, $1,500 $2,000 a month. It's interesting. He told me that there were going to be uh oops, sorry, wrong line. Hotel nine apartments.

Yep. Four of them will be onebedroom and five of them will be twobedroom. That's the way he responded to me. Okay. I'm sorry. Where is the old hotel? It's the one on the corner of EMTT and Michigan. Didn't that used to be called the Murray? Murray Hotel. Maybe that's a hospital. That's probably a hospital. Yeah. And then I had a question about that. Um it was formerly apartments I guess but um it's outside of the CBD so it apparently didn't have any parking requirements attached to it when it was submitted for development. Parking exempt

parking exempt because it's part of that CBD. Yes. Oh, it's outside the CBD. Well, that's two different parking exempt area is not the same as the CBD. Oh, okay. Right. Right. And I think we added that area because we knew that was going to get developed more intensely and we were trying to figure out how to enable that. Shane, would you like the email that he sent to me? No, I know him. Well, okay, all right. Anything else? Um, I adjourn this meeting at 7:56 p.m. consider