Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Okay. All right. I call the regular planning submission meeting to order Wednesday, July 26th in the City Hall meeting room. Roll call.

Detmer? Here. Freed?

Here.

Meridian?

Here.

Moss?

Here.

Newman?

Here.

Paul? Here. Robson?

Here.

Smith?

Here. One more minute.

I'm happy to make a motion that we approve the minutes for the June 17th regular planning commission meeting.

Any corrections, changes, concerns? Second.

I'll second.

Reggie, the motion, 10 seconds. All in favor, approve it. Aye. Aye. Everyone, approve it. OK. This is an opportunity for public comment. If you have something you'd like to say that doesn't have anything to do with this item. Is there anyone online?

No.

Zoning Ordinance Update. A new shot analysis discussion. We have this piece of paper and this is actually going to be the overlay. It involves overlay. Is that what you said?

Yeah, it's based on the meeting last month, which Dan was from the Ann Arbor office, was presenting the modeling. Based on Planning Commissioner comments and then based on some comments received by a couple Planning Commissioners, particularly with the numbers based on some of the actual heights and we ran the model and which is going to be posted on the project website so the community can see it. My task to him was to say, now that we've got the model done, let's put this in a form that's comparable to the zoning map to basically show what area And then this is the result of that analysis. So we've got the data, we've got the model, took all the data, filtered it down, and then came up with the map that would be the overlay map that would complement the text in the proposed zoning code. Okay, discussion, questions?

So when we started this, it was my question probably wrongly that we create this district, this overlay district, you said overlay district, and now we'd be using, I was thinking we were going to be using a model if someone had a new building to go in or a change. We can do that. But it sounds like the direction which might be much more practical is to say,

around actually anywhere in the city and wanted to propose something that we thought was big. We could plug that height in on that piece of property and rerun the model and see what it impacted. We have both. This would be the graphic for the zoning, but because the model was done citywide, if anything ever comes up, like if the hospital wants to build another tower, We plug it in and we see what's in the back. So with that, Dave.

Okay. So I was trying to read what he did. It seemed to make a lot of sense, his approach and more detailed analysis. I was a little, I don't know if it seemed counterintuitive at first to me that the highest thing would be the closest to the view. And the lower part was up the hill. I mean, I kind of get it. But in some ways, you think closer to what you were trying to do.

It would be lower, but it's actually the reverse. By the time you get down to Charlotte Way Avenue 31, the buildings there, you really don't even see them. Right. They're very, very one-story buildings. But up here, it's up southern part of Portland.

I mean, on the first model we had the first time, and maybe I was successful in it, but I was able to get out and model and look at this. Did we have that? Yeah, when you said that's coming, where we could go to all these points, or?

Yep, you can, you can, he's got the interactive model we're going to post on the project website. Okay. And I couldn't get anything to interact. I couldn't. They're getting that up in the next day or so.

So that was my question. So I just, do you want to make one point on, we talk about impacts i mean this is a mathematical analysis of impact yeah from a human standpoint it's a little hard to correlate it occurred to me at the last meeting um you can talk about percentages of use let's you could take this or anything compared to hotel whatever you could take and then there's things that might be more impactful if you lost them so there's so i don't my brain says uh percentages are interesting and you And that's when you get into a mathematical analysis, the minor impact things. Um, on his report. We claim this minor, because most advantage points, there wasn't much of a change at all. 2% of degree is pretty small. But a couple of points were. just a few were 83% and 25% reduction. So I would say most people would say, well, 83 is probably significant. I would say 25 could be also too. In other words, I don't know mathematically. I know like 1% or 2% would probably not be much. And 25% might seem like a small number of less than 50. But it might be rather impactful. So it was interesting to see the mathematical discussion of binary effects. in perspective, it might be a little more significant than that. That's the only thing I had to say there.

I was just wondering on the 35 foot overlay, besides the hospital, are there other areas that are 35 foot?

Not the hospital. In this area down here, around Cannibal and Jackson at the hospital, it's the dominant pipe. You really know 35 feet on Mitchell at all.

Well, maybe that little building on the corner of Liberty, the northeast corner of Liberty and highway, West Mitchell, that could be close to that, right?

Yeah. It really is. I'm sorry you blocked me. One of the news.

I'm like, are you part of the condos that are next to the cell? Fairbrown, next to the cemetery, there was a cemetery. Those are probably. I don't know. At the curb? Yeah, just before the curb. And closer when you're right. Yeah, there's like, but then if they're, they're fairly, they're fairly like to the eastward. They might be to the eastward, yeah. And so they're, I mean, I think they've been there. But 200 minutes, I'm too close.

anything else right um i just have a couple of questions one is um am i correct in his assertion that he uh ignored the tree canopy it's like it's not there yeah we could get right we could give her life right now and that can change and that can change yeah i understand and it does change um yeah um Is there one side of 131 versus the east side versus the west side that affects the view more? And I guess where I'm coming from is there's an awful lot developed. you know, I guess what would be the west side. It's just not going to change. You know, you've got condos there, you've got the, you know, and so it just seems like that should just be status quo.

Well, it's probably going to be status quo, yeah. That part of Russia.

Whereas the other side of the road may not do that. And I guess the one site that concerns me is where that burned out hotels. And, you know, are we happy with that just staying there forever? Because if you can't stay there, I don't see that being redeveloped. I mean, are we going to allow first floor residential in that area in this corridor? I mean, you know, that parcel in particular, I think, is pretty good. We should at least give it some attention, you know, as to what could happen there or what are we restricting.

Yeah, because if you're personally known as this parcel, also owns that corridor. I think that the property that are on the east side are going to affect the views.

Can I have everyone's attention?

So I think the views on 131 on the east side would have an impact on the townscape. Right. And on the eastern part of the bay would have the biggest impact. But no, I get what you're talking about because my concern with those two parcels out of Sheridan If we can't figure out what the redevelopment potential is, my concern is with that corridor at that intersection, that's the prime location for gas station. That's what I'm concerned.

I mean, I guess, you know, certainly the folks on Highland Drive and that area are going to be concerned with what happens there, and rightly so. when a gas station would be enticing for that neighborhood, and they would be excited about that. I mean, you know, as a group, we need to think about that, I guess.

So John, is there, I'll obviously, is there a first floor residential out in the corridor or not?

I don't think there's any building support in the middle of it, so. Thanks.

Yeah, I still got a question, you know, relates to what I talked about earlier about which part of the stalling is closer to the bay. Driving down that hill, I've always thought to myself, and it's been voiced at some planning commission, that this wedge or this piece between West Jefferson, the highway, Carnival, Ingalls, well, I'm especially talking about the Long Carnival in West Jephthah. There's some low commercial in there. That's really, really, really, really. So when we talk percentages, then this is the point. As you come down the hill, the hospital is rather large. I mean, you can see some lake behind it, but it's not like enough to pay your taxes. But when it continues to the other part where it opens up because those buildings are more, that's really, also, but I just think that's a pretty important spot there. Any loss there would be real impactful. Even if the percentage of that fault among the water I didn't see, I just think that would be pretty impactful. That's where you talk about percentages and numbers and then the actual view.

I think 35 feet in the In the software that you use. That didn't invent. As you're going down. When you get here, you're like, you don't see it. So it doesn't matter.

So when you're in Hillcrest, when you get the big view and you get a little dirty come up to get up right at the water. Right around Hillcrest is where the thing opens up in my mind. And that spot when you stand there, you see the hospital, you see some lake above it from your direction now and then It drops down with that area I'm talking about. There's a much better view that continues to be. It's literally almost kind of right in front of you. You don't want to look at the hospital part because it's kind of right. It's real important for things in front of you, I think.

I guess the best way to know that is to see it on the site. I'd love to see that.

a couple things the so as far as the redevelopment that corner that was on the agenda long for years when i first got looking at it because that's where where they wanted to make b3a blow up in order to that at that time the owner in order to I never put anything on the lounge. One of the reasons that we're doing all this and some of the money that we got to do all this was a grant to help increase density for housing. What I'd like to see that corner become is what you've shown us before. I don't know if the owner has issues, but some of those cottage core type small condo kind of developments for two reasons. We have really helped rental houses in this town. We have, but we're not helping people out in the long term. With rental housing, you become financially secure. The only way you become financially secure is without owning property. And so we had 10,000 condos in that area so that our people will stay. I think it's worthwhile looking at. We can still look at modified scrap. So we agree. If you prove that, if you prove that that side did not lock with you, right, they could, that's what's the beautiful thing about this model. You know, I mean, Gordon Puth is there now. When I first got involved, I took pictures as a best organization. So I respect Reggie's point. I think if somebody came in with a hotel and right thing, wanted to go in there, and if they said they can do it in the 35 feet range, and it doesn't block the fields for people, I think they should look at it. I do like the way that's laid out. I had the same issue with some people that's what we do, but the model I can get all the way down to about Pleasant Street, And then they would crash it. It might be because of food on an Apple iPad. I don't know.

I want to make a comment. When we set about creating this, once it's set in stone, we need to stand by it. We keep picking away at it. Then somebody wants to sue us because you let them go 10 foot higher.

I think you're having your bill. you can start changing the pipe in the area. You can't just arbitrarily do that. And if you did do that, then the next

Because we haven't respected our claim. So don't make choices thinking in the future we can change it. Because if you change it in the future, then you're harming the protection that it gives. The way this is set up, part of the corridor 131

that 30 months into the downtown, it's going to be good neighborhood business for different use. But everybody's got to comply with the overlay. So even if in the business store door, I think the height is 37 feet or 35 feet. But if they're within the overlay, they automatically go down to 25.

That's what I wanted. That was my big question for this neighborhood. All right. Are they going to be suddenly allowed to build 35 feet when that area is less than that, based on, you know, so whichever is lighter is the longevity.

That's going to be a new ordinance.

There's a, under Article 4, which is the overlay chapter, there's going to be the viewshed, and there's going to be the text that relates to the map. And the text will have those disclaimers and additions there.

It's going to go back to my first statement.

Well, the thing from a commercial or real estate point of view is that's a signalized intersection and that those two pieces of property are really well suited for some type of non-residential use, either a restaurant or an office building or some type of retail.

Did drive-through be permissible?

Because that's where you have your McDonald's. Chick-fil-A. Chick-fil-A.

Well, I guess.

I just wonder if the analysis of the west side versus the east side would be worthwhile. Because we really have an awful lot on the west side that is not going to change. the east side of 31.

I think on the west side, you've got Fillmore's, that's for sale. I think, you know, let's take a look at retail trucks. At some point in time, Bayview Mall is going to be a redevelopment site. Well, they're already trying to sell a portion of it. Yeah, and then you've got the two parcels on Sheridan. So I think your redevelopment potential is greater on the west stuff well you're right but below below yeah you got the you got fillmore's right here and then you've got bayview yeah mall which i think a mall yeah which is a mall and it's it it it's not doing all that well and then you've got the properties here so i think on the corridor the redevelopment potential is on the west side not

I mean, some of the best uses are made. What's that, man? Yeah, the Sherwin-Williams group collapsed, and I just take a peek at the hollow sections outside Donald's. They're rusted.

They were built on time for... And it's beautiful, you should. Yeah. That's why people ask where the state of fire works. I, you know, when you look at the whole thing, I'm happy with . That's funny.

Okay, let's see, Carolyn, did you want to add this thing? I mean, I'm just looking at the business neighborhood and if it's limited to 30 feet in the ordinance, why don't we even show them the view shot is 35? I think that could be confusing, but if we do a footnote, then, I mean, just looking at it, you'd think, oh, I can build a 35.

Well, because we're including in the, not all the hospital campuses are 35 feet, but

street lower yeah well the thing is they're part of the viewshed we're trying to protect they front that viewshed so I do think we want to include it you want a viewshed and what about the houses the neighborhood that's on the north side of Jefferson Street it's at all north side and it goes down slow that's not the same it's not at the north end of those houses there are houses along there but it's like parish to well they will i'm arguing that i don't think the agency i don't know what if there is a team id we would allow them to come they know that at 35

PDs, but yeah.

Well, that's great. There's a question, I mean, because the whole, like, Hobby Lobby thing is not.

What's more, the PD. But it could go back.

That's it.

The Hobby Lobby PD.

That's part of it. That's part of it. It has to be involved. That's not.

That's a mistake. Because it's got its own development restrictions on it.

separate no part of the new development and they tore down all of that and we're saying if we don't know what it's not part of the tv it's part of people

But it also, I thought that our view shed and our overlay, but then.

Yeah. I thought you were going to general questions. Is the PD, can it be flexible? Yes. But it's got to, they still have to comply with these steps of limitation.

They have to comply with the view shed.

Because the PD provision in the PD, one of the requirements are, that as part of the process of evaluating and impact the character and the view shifts, well, that's what this satisfies. Is that a whole thing in here, though? Even though it's a PD, should that be hatched for him also?

Should that be hatched for him too? We can put it in the costume.

I think it should. It's already been approved in those five limits. We're already mandated as part of it. Still, that is a

I go back to my original.

I'm concerned about that. Wasn't the original hotel two stories? Yes. And they did fine. That's two stories, isn't it?

They did fine being built in, you know, 1970.

We had somebody that wanted to come in and talk to Lisa and I about the corner. And their idea was to put a three-story mixed-use development. We had to tell them. But their comment was the same as what Reg was saying, is we can't make the development pencil out at two stories. We have to have the third story to make it work financially.

That's why a farm is sort of, I think you're bottling that big lot of development that could occur right here. I understand the, you know, your struts.

to come here aside from the Jimmy Johns. So I don't know as if it's going to be as impactful as you want it to be, or it's going to negatively impact the development. So like the only thing that would be beautiful with the team would be to see that that the 25 feet is very restrictive, especially in comparison to what's there now.

But it isn't if you're building all the way through the parking lot. 25 feet would be very restrictive. Yeah. Yeah.

Didn't we talk about moving that

back a little bit further where you just sat back we're pushing everything straight from right now right okay well and that's around this quarter or whatever well it was 50 feet 50 feet but yeah that's or 40 i don't i but lisa did you ever do you have a number

From last, I believe it was 40 feet is what's proposed. 50 is what's required.

What we currently have to be created

that area, right?

No, that's B3, right? Work with all the D3. In B3, the front setback is 30 feet. And it says no size, no size that was required. The roof setback is one of the products of that.

There are side ramps. H&G said north side there is will retire down from 1600. Well, he's reading from B3. B3A is what was discussed. Yeah, I know.

We were talking B3A last meeting.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

front was 50.

That's 50 and 40. Some of these parcels are going to be their own. You take 50 in the front, 40 in the back. You end up with nothing.

So these type of strations also, they're not... the floor count. So in theory, you can do like an apex roof, have a gable roof on some sort of commercial building and still get that floor count of three under the 25. Yeah. So, okay, you still have potential.

How much room do we have? We have something like That's empty right now. And so, you know, we're supposed to be 100 years ahead, but things like we need to have those properties go up. People don't come to task. We have, you know, and so to say we need tall buildings in where the Bay Mall is right now and where the old hotel was. There's other places to develop. It's not what the people come to task to get away from, get away from, to get to old.

Our office is downtown, and during the summer there's hundreds of people that walk by our office window that are downtown shopping, and that's all buildings. So, you know, I think you have to look at the future.

leave it at that i would just like to say that what we do sends a message to potential developers whether it's downtown whether it's this big shed corridor but heavy it's not a mystery that our young people aren't staying here because they can't afford it to maintain jobs and things like that. So if we continue to be very conservative, then we got what we're gonna get, in my opinion. 10 years ago, 20 years ago, it was unheard of to have vacancies down there. And now they're everywhere.

But they're everywhere. That problem goes way beyond us.

I'm just saying, if there's something we can do to encourage this kind of development, it would certainly help. Because the people that are buying our houses right now are rich retirees.

You can't change the property values that have gone up. What about these houses?

Well, I'm just saying that how we view our potential commercial areas, which there are not very many, has an impact on the next generation. That's all I'm saying.

I think in terms of housing, we're looking at the industrial area, and that will probably be dense apartments is how I see that happening in the future. So we are providing what we can that might be affordable. We don't have control over the affordability. But we do have control over the density and we are allowing it. We're just allowing it in a place where it will work well. The road can handle it. It's in a nice area where people would like to live. So I don't, and I think in terms of commercial, The demand for commercial has gone down. And this is for everywhere. So I don't see, I think that we could use what land we have more wisely than trying to open it up for denser commercial. Denser housing, yes, but denser commercial, no. We already can't fill it. But that is not a problem because we're not being generous.

it's a problem because there just doesn't let me have to work one is i'm always a little uncomfortable when we make a site or we say and i respect there's a lot of smart people here who know that stuff but you know something will never go in somewhere or someone couldn't use this property i'm very uncomfortable with that i don't know i don't have and we had them out first of all for our residents, but no one will ever build a business. So if people came, I was on at the time, I was DBA or whatever, and it didn't happen weekly. You don't always know. And anything that involves views, that people can build something on and have some massive view for their condo. If we give it away, they will take it. It's not going to do a darn thing for affordability and microscopy. It's not going to bring workers there. But if we give it away, they will. And we'll give away the views that we all have. Right. Right. I think we have to be careful with that.

Yeah. I mean, I guess I would also say that the views for the houses are one thing. The views along the highways are another. just feel that that's, it's more of a concern for the houses in my mind than the highway. If you have a house, you have a view, certainly that's worth that. I'm not saying it's not at all worth protecting the highway views, but those to me are second to the home.

Well, I feel like if this main highway was running east-west, there would be a conversation. Since it's running straight

Well, I think this effort, this viewshed overlay is a great first effort to try to address what we've been concerned about.

I think the topographic map overlay, that was really helpful because it's not a good map because the topography varies significantly on each side as well.

So it's a little hard to have an educated conversation about that data.

Okay. Right. So it sounds like we're going to get better interactive math on this. And also, obviously, you're just going to be some more commentaries. So I'm not feeling comfortable, you know, with this possibly as a graph looking forward. Some things, there's going to be more discussion.

Can we put it on the next month's agenda? Sure. And maybe can we have her here so we can- No, you want to stay in the back? Stay in the back for the software? Because he understands the software. Thanks. All right. Any comments from the public? My name is Grace Ketchum. I live on Hillcrest. And I respect Reggie's opinion, what he's saying, but I live next door to that. But I've lived, you know, having lived up here, and then I moved to, my husband took a job in Indianapolis. We lived in the city for 25 years. But we would come up here on a regular basis. And I would just tell him, we've got to come in from the south side because You know, it was like, you come over the hill, you look down here, and it was like, whoa, I'm home. And it's a sense of, I don't, it's just different. You know, you drive into Driver City, and it's like, well, there's all these nice homes that were built along the lake, and they, but now they've got this highway, probably four or five lanes, some places, You know that are great, but they have to either find a way to back out. And the other part of this is living in a hillcrest. We really don't need three story buildings. Rochelle.

Yes, I want to thank you for your hard work. I think that you shed a sacred, not only from our homeless, but from the highway. It's very important. I think all of our will be. So thank you. Thank you. First of all, does anybody actually know how tall the hospital is? It would give me a better idea.

Yeah, we have some numbers up.

okay i just you know because when you were talking about the 35 feet i wanted to kind of you know everybody knows that didn't lie okay that's about 67 feet okay all right and then um the other thing about like hotels i don't think we need any more hotels um They don't pay livable wages for people to live here. They take people from other countries and use up our housing here. You know, if hotels pay livable wages here, then, you know, hey, bring some hotels, but they don't pay livable wages for our people here and they take up our housing. There's so many places that put five, 10 people in one house, you know, from a hotel. So it's like, I don't think we have to worry about three story hotels. And I don't think that's what our community needs. And I don't want the view to be, you know, everybody knows how I feel about the view. Thank you. Thank you.

Okay, we will move on to the old business of the Dr. Bolzano-Emerman's district.

I don't see the plan that you're starting with. Give me some comments on the proposed math. I've got some from now already.

I have a few challenges. I might hand write them. They might be quicker for me. Okay. So there are

Some of the houses over here are zone V3.

A or B? Okay, so then they were converted. But he pointed them out. I went back in and verified that these are all residential. So they got classified as suburban. And then these that are classified as mountain family are actually single family. So those are the classifications.

They got classified as suburban.

Okay. Okay. It's on there. I'm going. Yeah.

So you've already.

It's on here. Yeah.

I would just take the rules. And then one property that has two zones. Which one? One right behind the condo.

classified it as residential suburban okay okay Rick thank you um these are some detail kind of things like down there on Sheridan right where clarion that ends into Sheridan what used to be Midwest side and it's shown in gray really should be green because it's city built that owned by the city right so that Little strip of yellow on that little strip of gray. Right here. This should all be green because it's city aquarium. So that's quasi-public. Public. City aquarium. He's got a cider in there. He's talking about rainwater source.

This one, the gray one?

The gray one.

Yeah, yellow.

And that yellow is green. I don't know what that is. That would be green. Yeah, green.

That's a parking lot?

I don't know.

No. It could be just a...

Some of the GIS stuff is...

I don't... We'll figure it out. It could all be green. And then, you know, right across here and there along Clarion, But as you get down to the first bump out, first bend down south, all that gray on both sides, don't you think that should be yellow? Because that's all single-family neighborhood in there. It's never going to develop as industrial. Clarion Avenue, south of Sheridan. Right there. That's right here. That strip there, down to the green, adjacent to the green. Now to that green spot. Everything up here. Everything north of that probably should be yellow because it's all single-family neighborhoods.

There is some commercial in there. Well, but isn't that half of that green? I'd have to look.

No, I think there's... I think the other... Up here is the... Oh, you're never going to be on. So we're going to change this.

Oh, my gosh.

Because if we're this, if we're going to, if we want more residents to go there, you can't be told enough.

It should be R-N. Residential. R-N. Don't you think it should match all this up here?

Well, this used to be industrial. My vision for industrial was to make that resolution. Bring it up the interaction.

We talked about that being business neighborhood all along the railway, not directly adjacent.

are you talking about the iron residential let's let's let's get let's just go around the table let's let's focus first on stuff okay so that was what i had out there hold on we're not there yet okay it's stuck it's stuck yeah it's not one it's still spinning what i find is

I know, but I have to be able to get in close enough to... Well, it's fine now. Okay, so we've got... Sheridan comes across.

Okay. Sheridan. Yeah. Okay.

So that is city. It's just a vacant parcel. So that should also be green. Both of these should be green. It's right next to Midwest Siding, these two parcels. And actually the city owns this one. No, not that one. Well, there's another one I can, this one.

Yeah. This one also.

Those are city. Yeah.

Zoom in on that second.

That city. That one is not. Right. That one, yeah, I won.

Why not make any inventions?

Some of these. Not that one. Yeah, these two are city. Yep, and then that one's industrial.

Oh, yeah. Oh, okay.

And then this one is RM1. So yeah, it's these two. Okay, so when we go here, these are commercial. So that's going to be That's residential. This one. That one's industrial. So this.

What's it called?

401. Well, that's property class. Zoning codes are two on that one. That's I-1. And this is an I-1. And that's city. Yeah. Okay, so it's going to start. So actually, it'd be right here is where it's going to start industrial. Or commercial. Yep. So basically. Yeah.

So everything north of Winfield.

With the exception of the one.

But. Do you think residential neighborhood is about.

Yeah, and that's what's existing.

Those are all residential.

And then this industrial down here, it's all land.

American stone and all of that. It's all down there.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, these all.

This is. No, that's not that one. There's a couple residential in here because that's an apartment building. I believe this one's our rentals in here. And these are residential. And then this goes to commercial. So there are a few other ones in there that. But they're kind of already there. Yeah.

Yeah.

There's no, there's no, there's no residential at all in the industrial district.

Some bigger parcels down there. We'll catch your voice.

We'll take it to our meeting. We're going to get through this book in a while. I'm figuring this out right now. We might be three-fold running. Yeah, or nine.

Yeah, start at nine through 13. Okay, well, we can consider that. I'll move on to my next one then. And that is across from the college there on Atkins Road, that green splotching there. Is that a designated green space?

It's with which splotching you're talking about.

There's a couple, just start with Atkins Road where the curve is there. I know it's, does that belong to the college? That's that preserve. Yeah, it's a preserve. It is a designated preserve. Yeah, yeah. Okay. But it belongs to the college?

I believe so.

So is that part of the college zoning district or is it outside of the college zoning district, I guess? It's going to be green. Yes, it's outside. Okay, that answers my question there. All the way from the northeast part of town to Roseville and continue to think that that should be Those events were meagerly solid, you know, rather than single family. The character of them is much more of a story than what we made. In point working. You're right. What class? What class? RN. RN.

RN. RN. Yeah.

And the only other spot that I had was, it seems to me that where the Winter Sports Park is shown, where it goes up on the end of Grand Avenue here. I believe that the top property up there, it's not part of the Winter Sports Park. To the east of the end of Grand Avenue, Grand Avenue Dead Ends. And then there's a piece on the north side of Grand Avenue.

Oh, this one here. That's City. Yeah, Todd's is right here below. This is Todd right here. The 017, this one right here. See if I can zoom in a little more. This one is Todd. That's Todd. Yes. Yep. And for whatever reason, these two are linked together. And you pull them up.

It appears.

Yep, it appears so.

So this little green spot, is the residential right here?

No, it's part of the city. So it's part of the city.

Anything else, Rick?

Nope.

I'm just wondering about that old Fairview Sunset.

No, the bigger Parsons.

It's kind of a suburban setting too.

So that Lear Stretch 400-015.

That's owned by the same individual that owns this one.

That's owned by... That was just for sale and it didn't sell. And I was curious why maybe that's not so...

It's RM1, so multiple family.

That's strange. You sort of get to it from the end of OB.

Why does... Multiple family. Okay. Oh, thank you. No, I have. I think we covered a lot of it.

I thought that we were doing something different with the business neighborhood where You got ice cream, what's it called?

Oh, the corner grocery.

Because you have commentary buckets too, because it's one isolated little island. And perhaps there was a different way to solve that, rather than just doing the pink.

Wasn't doing a residential flex. Was that the discussion? Yeah. That's what's coming to mind. Because a residential flex would allow for something like that to go in just like it would like a Bill and Carol's or.

Yeah.

So should that pink one be yellow then on the corner of Kalamazoo and Jennings? Because that was kind of a discussion.

in the residential neighborhood for a small food market. We don't have ice cream mentioned specifically. It could go on.

Yeah, that's part of the grocery store.

We had that as a special name. So it's not... What's the name?

It's right here, right on the corner of Jennings and Kalamazoo.

We could make it part of the name. It would be allowed.

I would just take the pink and make it yellow.

We're already allowing

in the RN, yeah.

So if you ever sold it, it could still be used as such.

Yeah.

And you know, years ago back, 60s, 70s, and 80s, planners tried to get rid of all those neighborhood stores. I don't know why, because they always seemed a really good function within the neighborhood.

Because it was messy on the map. It was messy on the map.

What would you encourage others to do that at some point?

Well, the way the ordinance is set, the proposed ordinance, food markets are allowed in residential neighborhoods, especially. So if somebody comes in with a

All right, next, Julian. I have a comment. It kind of goes back to the difficult corridor, making sure that there's even should not be in that corridor if a lady can't fit in it. And I'm not sure looking at the map, but again, business for a lot of those co-living units on the upper floor, right?

And it allows us, it kind of allows dwelling units

after the road comes in and the great big 31 behind that is the red area those are all condos under red and i think that should be an rm how many units are there there's a there's a substantial comfort well the first time well then they're they're permitted okay but do we want to keep calling this part of the body well how would it be rm or it could be you could do it as a rm Because right now, it's like we can't. No, any drawings over 13 or more domains are permitted. All right. So that's fine. I just want to make sure that we...

But these are individual parcels, so they wouldn't qualify. Well, that's fine. That's fine.

Because... Well, there's four different parcels. There's a whole...

You could zone it for the RN multiple, the residential multiple. I don't have a problem with that. Does that work better for you?

I mean, in terms of what I achieved.

I can't tell you to the other.

You know, say actually going all the way down to the light. Yeah, I do. They don't perfectly. They don't both sides of the door. And I was just, you know, I would just take that some property that somebody should live in where I have a problem.

I think if you want to clean, you call it multiple, you know, so you have individual units there.

All right. That's a look at their houses. There are a lot of budgets. How is it?

Pleasant is mostly business, I believe. Because that's the car dealership.

Pleasant and Maple.

Yep.

And Maple and Porter. Porter. It seems like there is housing.

Oh, on the opposite side, yes. Yeah, on the west or east side. Yeah.

They are. Yeah.

Yeah, so Spring and Porter, these are all residential.

Yeah, these are all residential. All of those. We're the business, because that's a dual zone. The business partners are a little restricted, which is good. We want to make sure we don't get.

All right, anything else, Oliver? Rich?

Yeah, just one thing I was concerned about is getting back to where the industrial area is a clarion. What did we decide to do? If there's a lot of housing along, especially between Sheridan and Smithfield.

We're going to keep that as residential.

That's going to become a residential. Yeah. Okay. And then below it is going to either be residential flex.

What did you say? That would be further up.

As you go further up. And then on standards, you have a lot of industry.

Yeah, and some of that, I was going to have some of that.

By the river there?

Well, I'd like to see that be, would it make more sense on the east side of standards to make that the RF or RM?

Did you hear what John was saying? So for the on Standish Avenue east side, that first

Like, you know, it's just down for me on the street. He says, change that to your name. And then we're looking right here. Right here, right here. Yeah, so

Yeah, so that is. There is in this little bend right here. This is residential and I'm trying to figure out where. Because this is the, so it might be in here. This is 1. so this is residential right here. There's 341234. two three four these are all residential right here and then this is industrial and this is this is commercial industrial that's commercial down there yeah and then everything that first leg that um off of from ann street down is actually commercial but that was the one they said changed to residential

Can we change this?

You want that top leg from Ann? Well, south of Ann.

Right, south of Ann.

You want that what?

Remind me. Versus residential flex. Yeah.

You know, what's that's what's what's the black flexes your most flexible.

So that's what so you do this. Yeah. So, and to was Yeah, flexible. You got to send it down or as I've made this right out of blacks, the orange. And then Lisa's got it all.

some that are commercial below it.

But she's got it all right.

Yeah.

So anything else from you? That was it. I have a question, John, against them at Black and Williams in Lake and Bay West. They're talking about how they're just

The ones on the east side of Williams are all residential neighborhoods.

It's just that little one should be L. Yeah, that's the one I was asking. And then he's trying to understand a kind of business quarter of Blanche Emmett between Michigan, Mitchell,

but I don't know. I think they, I don't know what's there. Is there a big business neighborhood?

Is there a multifamily or is there?

It's that one.

That one time that we had ruined either. Yeah. I think, I don't know.

No, because it's, it's basically these

Parcels right here. So this whole section right here is what's red and this is what's red. So, this is all residential. I think it's currently, but they were, they were, that was a. B2 a, so this was the, the old shade tree in our shade tree. Yep. But that's now a single family home. And then these are rentals. This one here. Oh, this one. Well, he has an office in there, but there's also rentals. There's living units there. It's residential. And this one's vacant. And then these are, this is office and residential orthodontist attorneys here. No, office is first floor, residential is upper floor. hair salon, orthodontist, attorney, and that's B2. This one I think is, that's a residential. But the red that's there is. And this is the other red block is the proposed. I don't see it.

Connor's there.

You know, that's the property up there that is part of the Perry. You know what I think? It used to be. architect, the finance, and then the two on the end are, one's a multifamily, like a condo, and then right on the corner is that really kind of cool-looking Art Deco single-family. The multifamily really is a, it's just one family that lives there.

Seems like these should change to go more residential.

We're looking at any which ones.

You're talking about these right here? You know, let's see, on Bay Street, and of course, And he had the brick house right on the curve there. That's, we changed it. It was going to be an extension of downtown where downtown could grow. So we changed downtown. And unfortunately somebody built through a white line through stories doesn't really fit Charles. So we realized that we don't need to extend for downtown, and then this would probably go back to some kind of, you know, allow business, but be more residential.

So right now, those are all business corridors, but right now, they would not be. The way the map is showing those is bad.

We need to change things up.

I think the actual heritage is part of downtown. I agree. The problem is you've got people living on the first floor. Right. I mean, on one side, on the east side of Howard, most of those are businesses. But on the west side, those are homes.

Right.

There's a real estate office and then a wicker. Right. Then there's the loans and then there's the... All right. Yeah. Well, how could you. Read it now. Yeah.

But 47. downtown and you can't live on. On that, but you haven't on one side of the street you've got.

What size? You got the architect, finance office, residential, and that's part of the parity. They use that as a short-term rental, I think. We gave them that authority. Across the street, these are all and then that's the restaurants. All right, middle state office, house. This is the, that's a commercial storefront. That's the pallet and that's the bistro next to it. So the ones that would basically could become part of the downtown. I think at least these could become part of the downtown. These are residential multifamily,

That's really an old home, what that is. They have to convert back to an old home.

Could be. The one next to it, the finance. That's where our old apartment was. That used to be a single-family historic house. Yeah.

I didn't do anything to promote the idea of taking that down. What are my colleagues?

You know where I am?

yeah but i think we just said we don't want to

Yeah, that might be a good place. And it wouldn't be that far from other businesses.

Well, I think the three that are adjacent to the parking

right now.

Where's the historical place at, does that feel?

Historically, I can't remember.

I haven't really developed that yet.

I don't see in this neighborhood. Okay. No.

okay so what about the parking exam where does where is that included is the parking exam no does that neighborhood require something no no all right so so if we turn it into if we did the the buildings to the east of um power power would go to the downtown We're not changing anything in terms of parking.

Yeah, but again, it's a little old. It might be old, but I just don't think it's out of town.

Well, it could be built up to the sidewalk.

Built up to the sidewalk.

Yeah, well, and the one house that did get built just I got used to it now. That was such an affront when that was built. And that beautiful home next to it got absolutely dwarfed. And there was very little side yard. It doesn't make sense. Well, there is no, because the other one could build a lot. I never got over it. No, I don't like it. And every time I see it, I think, I wish we would have thought about it. I don't want more of it.

Judge decided that. That, really? Well, that went to court. Oh, okay.

I mean, it's great there in the wintertime when the snow sheds off the roof and hits our building. Oh, you're in that beautiful house. Oh, yeah. Okay. And then the snow sheds off and then hits our office. Pretty wacky. Wakes you up. Well, all right. It's kind of an interesting area. It's really, we don't have a mixed-use classification, but you've got a combination of offices, commercial, bank, multifamily, all in one little block. Okay.

So that's the red at Howard and Bay on both sides, east and west. Okay.

Okay, time anymore. Then just to my question, John along right in that same area. We're the. I guess the relative is going through. Am I looking at the people that's. Red business quarter, there's 2 reds.

Yeah, absolutely.

And there's another red business quarter.

That is, I think that is, county owns that. No, it's, well, it's, oh, beyond that you're talking? That's the American Legion. Is in B2A. The one, the red one that's on Bay Street south of the the park area there. And then Penn Plaza. It's residential. This is residential. Well, this might be RM2 next door. That one is B2A.

So make these reds on the green way in your list, those of our residential funds. business neighborhood business neighborhood's got some pretty good uses in it so i So a business neighborhood is designed to provide small-scale retail firms with service needs for nearby residential areas. These districts have the tradition to be purely residential zones and largely more intense commercial. Well, there you go. There's your definition right there. So business neighborhoods. Do we want to go back and do business neighborhood for ones on Howard Street, East and West? But you guys But business neighborhood. So as a business neighborhood, you have to have this. I thought you could live on the first floor or business there.

Business neighborhood, you can have a living, working in it. Residential will hold the first floor, short-term.

We don't want this. Well, do we want it for this? Right. So now that I look at it, the depot, if... If that ended up, I don't know how they do short-term rental there, but that doesn't seem like a terrible use there. But the little houses across the greenway from there, whatever that is, what is this spot right here? I think it should be yellow. Division? Division's residential.

You're talking about uses, Cynthia, that are one-on-one? 010 and 101, 012 on the map. Right.

Are you talking these ones on division?

Those, yes. Actually, there's that. It'd be the bottom of those.

This one on the corner?

Well, those are residential blocks. But there's a little red spot and that must be... Oh, that's the American Legion. And then the next to that is the court school.

This is the court school, yeah. And then the Greenway corridor.

Yeah.

And then this is Penn Plaza, the other red.

All right. So I think we do that little red and the depot. And then the ones on the left. Okay. Okay. Any more, Doug? Stretch? Okay. I think we're done.

Okay. Oh, all right.

Yeah. Maybe when each time, like, I'm like, well, there's, you know, from Mitchell to State and then also on to Michigan and the west side of what was first a reader for.

There's... Yeah.

I was going to say that was good. Michigan. Michigan. So...

I think it was done as kind of a transitions on the office.

Yeah, that is office service.

These are all office service. And then these ones are... RM2. Yeah, those used to be RM2. You know, just big old Michigan Belvedere.

Yeah.

I at least never had to see it for a second.

There's almost no roots in that building. Yeah. They miniaturized everything. All their process is turned into two wires and some boards.

They light yellow on the corners. They want to do it. That's important. That's important.

Where are you looking at? This one right here.

So that's R1 currently. That's a single family dwelling.

This one. Yeah. Yeah.

one of those orange miles yeah so these two yeah that's an apartment building and these are single family dwellings and all three are residential flex because i think those are currently multiple family yeah yeah So these are single family. And these, so these first two are R1 and the next two are Rm.

Oh. Because the Rm were converted to flux and then the other wasn't.

Yeah, that should be bright yellow.

Yeah, that's

All right. Are you done with the system? Any other comments? Okay, what's the island in the Bear River? Orange. I don't know what that is. It's right here.

It could be part of one of the properties.

It could be here.

I think that's here. That would be right by the old manufacturing plant.

Yeah, that's associated with somebody's property owns that.

No, it doesn't look like it.

No, it doesn't look like there is. It might just be a glitch in the.

Because there's. No. No.

Yeah, there's nothing there.

You guys are amazing because I

I appreciate you doing what you're doing. Yeah. Oh, it must be.

All right. We should be thinking about what things we might want to propose to the CIFB. Better hurry up because they're wrapping it up. Just to get them to me. Get them to Lisa. I haven't thought of anything. I've got a couple I've got to get together with. Okay, anybody else? Yeah, I can say it's not boring. Other than the viewshed, should we be also looking at the viewshed from the the city neighborhoods back and, you know, if anything's impacted. We can, you want to do it as part of this or any future date? Well, that's one of the questions. Should we do this at the same time we're doing, you know, just do that section too? How do you feel about that? Trying to preserve the view for the neighborhoods. Well, we've kind of built up the hill.

What's your goal? I mean, we've got I just wondered if we should be coming to potentially if you were in the discussion, you need to have something done. So that was the one. Okay. Okay.

What about for... No, they... What I understand from the city manager is that the first step is getting a redevelopment liquor license that they need. And the city council has to adopt either an ordinance or a resolution designating it as a redevelopment area, and then they can apply for the license. I think that's a... significant part of the of the deal is that they get that okay perhaps we know what's happening uh of course they've been demolished there has been some discussion about a uh some form of residential development but i i haven't seen the universal yeah at least you haven't either no typically like But that's what we heard.

That would be some form.

And that would be. I think it is. No, that's beef. Hold on. It's in the. It allows multifamily.

Yeah.

Some of this steel.

It's B3.

So I was curious if they were going to re-follow using the existing program. All right.

got our updates. This meeting is adjourned at 7.43pm. Thanks, everybody. Thank you.

Is this about four hours?